Bill Russell: 10-0 in game 7's (18.6 PPG, 29.3 RPG)

[ClipperRevival]

And 9 of them were in different seasons. Meaning he could've very well had 2 rings instead of 11 if he had lost all of those game 7s! Ponder that for a second.

This is why the guy won 11 rings, because he elevated his level of play as the stakes were at its highest. He dug down a little deeper. :applause:

http://www.game7.com/bill_russell.php

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/columns/story?id=2453844&columnist=shouler_ken

[AnaheimLakers24]

Cute.

[ISHGoat]

What are kobe and lebron's records in game 7s? Their statlines?

[BuffaloBill]

If he was that good he wouldn't need game 7s.


I bet his game 6 stats are pedestrian

[MMM]

greatest winner in North American sports
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

And 9 of them were in different seasons. Meaning he could've very well had 2 rings instead of 11 if he had lost all of those game 7s! Ponder that for a second.

This is why the guy won 11 rings, because he elevated his level of play as the stakes were at its highest. He dug down a little deeper. :applause:

http://www.game7.com/bill_russell.php

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/columns/story?id=2453844&columnist=shouler_ken

Against Wilt in his 4 game seven's...

13.5 ppg, 24.5 rpg, and on a .465 FG%

Wilt in those four game seven's...

21.0 ppg, 28.5 rpg, and on a .638 FG%

And this...


And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games

GOAT.

[ClipperRevival]

Against Wilt in his 4 game seven's...

13.5 ppg, 24.5 rpg, and on a .465 FG%

Wilt in those four game seven's...

21.0 ppg, 28.5 rpg, and on a .638 FG%

And this...



GOAT.

And Wilt's team lost every one of those game 7s. This sums up their legacies. Russell won and Wilt had the individual numbers. I would rather win.

[LAZERUSS]

And Wilt's team lost every one of those game 7s. This sums up their legacies. Russell won and Wilt had the individual numbers. I would rather win.

No...Russell had better teammates that badly outplayed Wilt's in those game seven's. Nothing more. BTW, the margins in those four game seven's were 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. So, Wilt was basically an eyelash away from holding a 5-3 margin over Russell in H2H's (and likely adding four more rings to his own resume.) Again, in series, and games, in which he either outplayed, or downright obliterated Russell.

Oh, and when Wilt had an EQUAL roster, that was healthy, he annihilated Russell's eight-time defending and HOF-laden 60-21 team.

Russell never came close to outplaying Wilt, and in fact, was routinely destroyed by him.

[Dr Hawk]

I love you Lazz

Wilt :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Russell is soooooooooooooooooooo overrated because RINGZ

There is a reason why Russell, even with 11 rings, is considered just a Top3 player for the majority of people. Why not put him as the GOAT? He has 11 rings! Why is people scared of putting him as the GOAT? Because they know he doesn't belong there, because they know he was a one-way player and had better teams than Wilt.

Put Wilt in those Celtics, and Wilt would be the consensus GOAT.

[feyki]

And Wilt's team lost every one of those game 7s. This sums up their legacies. Russell won and Wilt had the individual numbers. I would rather win.


I don't think Bill had worse numbers . Bill had better playmaking and defending than Wilt everytime .

1962 Game 7 ;

Bill - 19 pts (season avr. 19)

Wilt - 22 pts(season avr. 50)

1965 Game 7 ;

Bill - 15 pts (season avr. 14)

Wilt - 30 pts (season avr. 30 with Sixers , 38 with Warriors)

1968 Game 7 ;

Bill - 12 pts (season avr. 12)

Wilt - 14 pts ( season avr. 24)

[Harison]

The greatest winner in basketball history :bowdown:

Those mentioning Wilt... He was also the greatest in basketball history, at statpading :D Wilt himself said he didnt cared much of a winning and was laughing at Russell's drive to win. Wilt said woman, cars, etc. are more important.

Thats what separates pathological winners like Jordan or Russell from supremely gifted, but wrong mentality guys like Wilt.

[SouBeachTalents]

Game 7 stats

Jordan: 34/8/7 46%

Duncan: 25/12/3 48%

Hakeem: 27/14/5 50%

Shaq: 26/11/3 59%

LeBron: 34/9/4 47%

Kobe: 22/8/5 39%

Malone: 28/11/6 52%

Barkley: 25/18/3 53%

KG: 18/11/2 53%

Dirk: 27/14/2 50%

Isiah: 19/4/9 37%

Wade: 22/6/4 41%

[LAZERUSS]

I don't think Bill had worse numbers . Bill had better playmaking and defending than Wilt everytime .

1962 Game 7 ;

Bill - 19 pts (season avr. 19)

Wilt - 22 pts(season avr. 50)

1965 Game 7 ;

Bill - 15 pts (season avr. 14)

Wilt - 30 pts (season avr. 30 with Sixers , 38 with Warriors)

1968 Game 7 ;

Bill - 12 pts (season avr. 12)

Wilt - 14 pts ( season avr. 24)

Of course, Russell's DEFENSE was NOT on Wilt's level in those games. Why? Because Russell had HELP in defending Wilt. At the other end, Wilt was getting called for controversial goal-tends against Sam Jones, or Sam Jones hitting the game winner over WILT...or Wilt altering Heinsohn's game-winning shot attempt, and an unguarded Russell tapping in the putback. Or Sam Jones hitting a miraculous shot after a coach's blunder. Or havlicek "stealing the ball!"

The REALITY was...and this has been verified by Russell's TEAMMATES...Russell needed a TON of help in defending Wilt.

At the other end...it was Wilt nearly defending the entire Celtic team, as well as holding Russell to WAY BELOW his normal FG%'s.

BTW, in game seven of the '62 EDF's,, articles claimed that Wilt's DEFENSE nearly won that game (and series.) Oh, and he scored Philly's last five points, including the tying basket. But, alas, as was often the case, SAM JONES hit the game winner (and again...over Wilt's outstretched fingertips.)

[ISHGoat]

Game 7 stats

Jordan: 34/8/7 46%

Duncan: 25/12/3 48%

Hakeem: 27/14/5 50%

Shaq: 26/11/3 59%

LeBron: 34/9/4 47%

Kobe: 22/8/5 39%

Malone: 28/11/6 52%

Barkley: 25/18/3 53%

KG: 18/11/2 53%

Dirk: 27/14/2 50%

Isiah: 19/4/9 37%

Wade: 22/6/4 41%

Dam. So lebron scores 12 points more on 8% better fg% than kobe in game 7s?

[feyki]

Game 7 stats

Jordan: 34/8/7 46%

Duncan: 25/12/3 48%

Hakeem: 27/14/5 50%

Shaq: 26/11/3 59%

LeBron: 34/9/4 47%

Kobe: 22/8/5 39%

Malone: 28/11/6 52%

Barkley: 25/18/3 53%

KG: 18/11/2 53%

Dirk: 27/14/2 50%

Isiah: 19/4/9 37%

Wade: 22/6/4 41%


I known Kobe's . But I expect better from Wade and Isiah .

[dubeta]

Game 7 stats

Jordan: 34/8/7 46%

Duncan: 25/12/3 48%

Hakeem: 27/14/5 50%

Shaq: 26/11/3 59%

LeBron: 34/9/4 47%

Kobe: 22/8/5 39%

Malone: 28/11/6 52%

Barkley: 25/18/3 53%

KG: 18/11/2 53%

Dirk: 27/14/2 50%

Isiah: 19/4/9 37%

Wade: 22/6/4 41%


:biggums: :bowdown: :bowdown:



LOL @ Kobe's btw, pretty pathetic

[WayOfWade]

Dam. So lebron scores 12 points more on 8% better fg% than kobe in game 7s?
In case you're interested in seeing their actual games, here they are...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=305091

[LAZERUSS]

I don't think Bill had worse numbers . Bill had better playmaking and defending than Wilt everytime .

1962 Game 7 ;

Bill - 19 pts (season avr. 19)

Wilt - 22 pts(season avr. 50)

1965 Game 7 ;

Bill - 15 pts (season avr. 14)

Wilt - 30 pts (season avr. 30 with Sixers , 38 with Warriors)

1968 Game 7 ;

Bill - 12 pts (season avr. 12)

Wilt - 14 pts ( season avr. 24)

BTW, please post their entire series H2H numbers, as well. And, incidently, Wilt had four post-season H2H series with Russell, in which he EXCEEDED his regular season scoring against Russell. So, the reality was, Russell was not doing any more in their post-season H2H's, than he did against Wilt in his regular season H2H's.

Chamberlain DOMINATED Russell. In EVERY facet of the game. Chamberlain outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Russell in EVERY post-season H2H. And he easily outpassed him when he became more balanced and with better teammates (and STILL outscoring Russell, and by huge margins.) Oh, he also had considerably more blocked shots in their known post-season H2H's.

[SpaceJam]

In case you're interested in seeing their actual games, here they are...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=305091

That is pretty cool

To me game 5's in that scenario is exactly the same thing as a game 7

Including them just makes MJ look even more godly :cheers:

[Young X]

His last game 7 was against Chamberlain/West/Baylor IN LA. That was also the very last game of his career.

He got disgusted seeing the Lakers prematurely celebrating and GUARANTEED the Lakers would lose and that's exactly what happened. He led the underdog Celtics to the championship on their home floor as a player/coach. Then retired immediately after. :applause:

[iamgine]

And 9 of them were in different seasons. Meaning he could've very well had 2 rings instead of 11 if he had lost all of those game 7s! Ponder that for a second.

This is why the guy won 11 rings, because he elevated his level of play as the stakes were at its highest. He dug down a little deeper. :applause:

http://www.game7.com/bill_russell.php

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/columns/story?id=2453844&columnist=shouler_ken
Why is he the one elevating his play?

Can't his teammates be the one elevating their play and Russ just be his normal excellent self?

[Harison]

BTW, Russell also holds the greatest Game 7 in history as well - 30 points 42 rebounds (almost quadruple double with assists and blocks).

[dankok8]

Wilt didn't clearly outplay Russell in the 1962 EDF, 1968 EDF, and 1969 Finals. And while Wilt did outplay him in 1960 EDF, 1965 EDF, and 1966 EDF it wasn't by a large margin. Only in 1964 Finals and 1967 EDF did Wilt dominate Russell.

There is more to the game than stats. I urge everyone to read the RealGM recaps and some of the old threads here.

[AirFederer]

Game 7 stats

Jordan: 34/8/7 46%

Duncan: 25/12/3 48%

Hakeem: 27/14/5 50%

Shaq: 26/11/3 59%

LeBron: 34/9/4 47%

Kobe: 22/8/5 39%

Malone: 28/11/6 52%

Barkley: 25/18/3 53%

KG: 18/11/2 53%

Dirk: 27/14/2 50%

Isiah: 19/4/9 37%

Wade: 22/6/4 41%


If correct this pretty much tells that (most) NBA ATGs elevate their game when it counts the most. Pretty much what you expect. Their usage rate is also higher I guess.

Surprisingly good from BreLon :applause:

[ClipperRevival]

Why is he the one elevating his play?

Can't his teammates be the one elevating their play and Russ just be his normal excellent self?

Elevate as in his stats were superior over his career averages of 15 PPG and 22 RPG.

[tpols]

His last game 7 was against Chamberlain/West/Baylor IN LA. That was also the very last game of his career.

He got disgusted seeing the Lakers prematurely celebrating and GUARANTEED the Lakers would lose and that's exactly what happened. He led the underdog Celtics to the championship on their home floor as a player/coach. Then retired immediately after. :applause:

He's gotta be the GOAT.. only MJ GOAT stories compare

[iamgine]

Elevate as in his stats were superior over his career averages of 15 PPG and 22 RPG.
Is it superior compared to his game 6s stats?

[ClipperRevival]

The greatest winner in basketball history :bowdown:

Those mentioning Wilt... He was also the greatest in basketball history, at statpading :D Wilt himself said he didnt cared much of a winning and was laughing at Russell's drive to win. Wilt said woman, cars, etc. are more important.

Thats what separates pathological winners like Jordan or Russell from supremely gifted, but wrong mentality guys like Wilt.

Exactly!

People continue to underestimate the mental aspect of the game. Wilt even admitted that basketball wasn't that serious to him. On the flip side, no one took the mental game more seriously than Russell. That's what guys like MJ and Russell had. That mental drive to destroy you mentally and physically.

[bizil]

I love you Lazz

Wilt :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Russell is soooooooooooooooooooo overrated because RINGZ

There is a reason why Russell, even with 11 rings, is considered just a Top3 player for the majority of people. Why not put him as the GOAT? He has 11 rings! Why is people scared of putting him as the GOAT? Because they know he doesn't belong there, because they know he was a one-way player and had better teams than Wilt.

Put Wilt in those Celtics, and Wilt would be the consensus GOAT.

AWESOME POINT! If u gave Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, or Hakeem 11 rings, I think ANY OF THEM would have been considered the GOAT FLAT OUT!! Their peak value WOULD JUSTIFY IT!! In Russ's situation, THAT's NOT THE CASE!!

And that's not to diss Russ AT ALL! He would have been an HOFer without rings. Guys like Dikembe and Rodman made the HOF SOLELY because of defense and rebounding. Russ was a better passer and scorer than both of them. So he would have made the HOF anyway. BUT THOSE DAMN RINGS vaulted Russ MUCH HIGHER GOAT wise!

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt didn't clearly outplay Russell in the 1962 EDF, 1968 EDF, and 1969 Finals. And while Wilt did outplay him in 1960 EDF, 1965 EDF, and 1966 EDF it wasn't by a large margin. Only in 1964 Finals and 1967 EDF did Wilt dominate Russell.

There is more to the game than stats. I urge everyone to read the RealGM recaps and some of the old threads here.

First of all, he CLEARLY outplayed Russell in EVERY series, except ONE (and he outplayed him in that one.)

Secondly, he BADLY outplayed Russell in '65. It was by a 6-1 margin in those seven games, and in a couple of those he annihilated Russell.

He BADLY outplayed Russell in their '66 EDF's. In the one game that he was outscored (and just barely) the recap gave Wilt credit for single-handedly carrying his team. Oh, and in the clinching game five loss... a massive 46-34 beatdown of Russell.

RealGM gives Russell an edge in game one of the '62 EDF's, in a game in which Wilt DESTROYED Russell. Overall, Chamberlain had at least a 4-2-1 series edge, and in one of them he waxed hung a 42-37 game on a Russell who had a 9-20 game.

In '60, Wilt badly injured his hand at the end of game two, and was worthless in game three. It was the ONLY time in their 49 career H2H's that Russell clearly outplayed him. Of course, he came back with vengeance in game five, crushing Russell with a 50-35 game.

Chamberlain SHELLED Russell in the '64 Finals. However, his roster was MASSIVELY outplayed by Russell's SEVEN other HOFers.

The '68 EDF's were an overwhelming edge to Wilt after game five. But a crippled Wilt, with zero support in game seven, and with either HALF of his key teammates injured, or completely missing the series...lost a game seven by four points. In a series in which Chamberlain hung a 22-25-7 statline.

The ONLY H2H series between the two in which Russell was remotely close, was in the '69 Finals. And it was Wilt's COACH who was responsible for that.

[ClipperRevival]

Laz,

You are just so sad when it comes to Wilt. All you do is look at individual numbers and blame everyone else for Wilt's failures. It's always someone else's fault.

[feyki]

Of course, Russell's DEFENSE was NOT on Wilt's level in those games. Why? Because Russell had HELP in defending Wilt. At the other end, Wilt was getting called for controversial goal-tends against Sam Jones, or Sam Jones hitting the game winner over WILT...or Wilt altering Heinsohn's game-winning shot attempt, and an unguarded Russell tapping in the putback. Or Sam Jones hitting a miraculous shot after a coach's blunder. Or havlicek "stealing the ball!"

The REALITY was...and this has been verified by Russell's TEAMMATES...Russell needed a TON of help in defending Wilt.

At the other end...it was Wilt nearly defending the entire Celtic team, as well as holding Russell to WAY BELOW his normal FG%'s.

BTW, in game seven of the '62 EDF's,, articles claimed that Wilt's DEFENSE nearly won that game (and series.) Oh, and he scored Philly's last five points, including the tying basket. But, alas, as was often the case, SAM JONES hit the game winner (and again...over Wilt's outstretched fingertips.)


Sam Jones was probably most clutch player of all time . Hondo led Celtics to the championship in 68 and 69 . And Cousy was real leader of late 50's Celtics . Bill had more help than Wilt , that is reality . But that just about team accomplishments . Russell led Celtics defence to first defence of the league 12 times . That is Russell effect .

[bizil]

I think those defending Russ HARDCORE are getting carried away. Russ is considered WIDELY in the top 5 GOAT. HELL, I consider him in that realm. BUT PEAK OR BETTER WISE, I would take MANY BIG MEN over Russ. Not only centers like Kareem, Wilt, Moses, David, Pat, and Shaq. BUT ALSO PF's like Malone, Barkley, Duncan, KG, McHale, Hayes, and Dirk. I EVEN THINK Bob Petitt has a case over Russ peak wise.

But the GOAT list is the DEFINING LIST of a player's legacy. And RIGHTFULLY SO!! And in that realm, Russ IS STILL in the top five. But WHERE WOULD RUSS rank GOAT wise with ONLY two rings like Wilt??? MUCH LOWER than top 20 status!! And THAT'S not really debatable in my opinion...

[SouBeachTalents]

Laz,

You are just so sad when it comes to Wilt. All you do is look at individual numbers and blame everyone else for Wilt's failures. It's always someone else's fault.

Never the dude who's career ppg goes from 30 in the regular season, to 23 in the postseason, to 19 in the Finals, and who's ppg average declined from the regular season to the postseason literally every year of his career

[Spurs5Rings2014]

If he was that good he wouldn't need game 7s.


I bet his game 6 stats are pedestrian

Don't do 'em like that, Bill.

:oldlol:

[bizil]

Russ DID revolutionize basketball back in the day. He was a FREAK ATHLETE no doubt about it. And in terms of floor game (defense, passing, and rebounding as a package), he could be the best center of all time. But WITH THAT SAID, the most PREMIUM asset in basketball is alpha dog scoring. U can look at Russ's combo of scoring average AND shooting percentages and see he wasn't alpha dog material.

On the flip side, u have guys like Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Ewing, and Robinson who were EPIC when it came to two way dominance. In my opinion, that TRUMPS what Russ brought to the table peak wise. If they were ALL in the same draft at their best, Russ would be picked LAST!!

[ClipperRevival]

Never the dude who's career ppg goes from 30 in the regular season, to 23 in the postseason, to 19 in the Finals, and who's ppg average declined from the regular season to the postseason literally every year of his career

Yup.

Wilt scoring averages:

Regular season: 30.1
Playoffs: 22.5
Finals: 18.7

They don't call him the "Big Dipper" for nothing.

[Young X]

AWESOME POINT! If u gave Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, or Hakeem 11 rings, I think ANY OF THEM would have been considered the GOAT FLAT OUT!! Their peak value WOULD JUSTIFY IT!! In Russ's situation, THAT's NOT THE CASE!!

And that's not to diss Russ AT ALL! He would have been an HOFer without rings. Guys like Dikembe and Rodman made the HOF SOLELY because of defense and rebounding. Russ was a better passer and scorer than both of them. So he would have made the HOF anyway. BUT THOSE DAMN RINGS vaulted Russ MUCH HIGHER GOAT wise!Come on man. You're underrating the shit outta Russell.

If you don't account for differences in style of play for eras, Bill Russell is easily the greatest defender in NBA history. His defense was the driving force behind those Celtics' teams success. They were #1 in I think every year he was there and then declined as soon as he left. Defense is the main thing that wins championships and nobody was more helpful on that end than Russell.

[AirBonner]

Dam. So lebron scores 12 points more on 8% better fg% than kobe in game 7s?
Damn Jabbar going to blacklist this thread :roll: :roll: :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

LeBron, the greatest game 7 and elimination game performer of all time, incredible finals production, amazing last second %'s on playoff game winning and game tying shots, league leading in the clutch (regular season and playoffs), and producing the most efficient/best down the wire teams in the league... :bowdown:

Pressure gets tight, moment gets hot, call this guy...

I think only him, MJ, Bird, Dirk, top out on all these numerous criterias... not just clutch last second shot makers, but also big game performers (although Bird had a few too many playoff stinkers and weak elimination games).


Come on man. You're underrating the shit outta Russell.

If you don't account for differences in style of play for eras, Bill Russell is easily the greatest defender in NBA history. His defense was the driving force behind those Celtics' teams success. They were #1 in I think every year he was there and then declined as soon as he left. Defense is the main thing that wins championships and nobody was more helpful on that end than Russell.

Thats the thing, bizil repeats himself too much on his ideologies.. "alpha dog scoring", Russell is a difficult player to rank for me, but currently I hold him very high... the difference and impact he had (not just speaking but really when you look at the numbers) is otherwordly.

[AceManIII]

http://webpage.pace.edu/ns10697n/practice%20work/web%20design/biographical%20site/images/rings.jpg

[Straight_Ballin]

BTW, the margins in those four game seven's were 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.

http://i.imgur.com/JMOdxI1.png

Russel is more of a winner than Wilt. End of discussion.

[LAZERUSS]

Never the dude who's career ppg goes from 30 in the regular season, to 23 in the postseason, to 19 in the Finals, and who's ppg average declined from the regular season to the postseason literally every year of his career

I'm surprised that this would be coming from you. You are way too a good a poster to post this without CONTEXT.

But, I'll play along...

Chamberlain averaged 30 ppg in his regular season career. 40 ppg in his first seven seasons, and 20 ppg in his last seven seasons.

Does that mean he couldn't score more in the last half of his career? Well, you tell me. He had the HIGH games in the NBA in each season from '67 thru '69...in year's in which he averaged 24, 24, and 21 ppg. Oh, and he had a new coach at the start of the '70 season, Joe Mullaney, who asked him to become the focal point of the offense. Chamberlain erupted for 32.2 ppg (on a .579 FG%) and was leading the league in those first nine games. And this was not inflated by one or two big games, either. He had games of 33 (deceptive...he was injured after playing 28 minutes, and was 13-14 from the floor when the injury occurred), 35, 37 (against 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle), 38 (against reigning MVP Wes Unseld), 42 (against Bob Rule...go ahead and look him up), and 43 (against Connie Dierking...which was nowhere near his career high game against Dierking,...but was more than KAJ would ever hang on Dierking.) Oh, and in the one H2H with Kareem, before he shredded his knee, he outscored him, 25-23; outrebounded him, 25-20; outassisted him, 5-2; outblocked him, 3-2 (including two skyhooks), and outshot him 9-14 to 9-21. Unfortunately, Wilt shredded his knee in that ninth game, and was never the same again.

Continuing...

In his "scoring" prime, from '60 thru '66, he averaged 40 ppg against the NBA, and "only" 33 ppg in the playoffs. Of course, he only played 52 playoff games in his scoring prime, out of his 160. And 30 of those 52 came against Russell. In those 30 games against Russell, he averaged 31 ppg on a .507 FG%...or slightly below his 34 ppg against Russell in their regular season H2H's in that same span. BTW, the playoff scoring and FG%'s declined considerably for the entire league in those years. Oh, and his team was so bad in his '63 season, that they missed the playoffs...in a season in which he averaged 45 ppg.

So let's review, shall we...

He averaged 40 ppg in his regular seasons from '60 thru '66, and "only" 33 ppg in his 52 playoff games. BUT, he missed a season in which he averaged 45 ppg, so his regular season scoring in those years, minus his '63 season, was about 38 ppg. So, the "decline" was about 4 ppg. BUT, 30 of his 52 playoff games were against Russell and his Dynasty. In those, he averaged 31 ppg.

Continued...

[dankok8]

AWESOME POINT! If u gave Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, or Hakeem 11 rings, I think ANY OF THEM would have been considered the GOAT FLAT OUT!! Their peak value WOULD JUSTIFY IT!! In Russ's situation, THAT's NOT THE CASE!!

And that's not to diss Russ AT ALL! He would have been an HOFer without rings. Guys like Dikembe and Rodman made the HOF SOLELY because of defense and rebounding. Russ was a better passer and scorer than both of them. So he would have made the HOF anyway. BUT THOSE DAMN RINGS vaulted Russ MUCH HIGHER GOAT wise!

Yes if any of those other guys had 11 rings they would be the unanimous GOAT. It isn't necessarily fair though. Russell doesn't fit the mold of a traditional superstar that carries his team on offense but that doesn't make him worse necessarily.

[dankok8]

First of all, he CLEARLY outplayed Russell in EVERY series, except ONE (and he outplayed him in that one.)

Secondly, he BADLY outplayed Russell in '65. It was by a 6-1 margin in those seven games, and in a couple of those he annihilated Russell.

He BADLY outplayed Russell in their '66 EDF's. In the one game that he was outscored (and just barely) the recap gave Wilt credit for single-handedly carrying his team. Oh, and in the clinching game five loss... a massive 46-34 beatdown of Russell.

RealGM gives Russell an edge in game one of the '62 EDF's, in a game in which Wilt DESTROYED Russell. Overall, Chamberlain had at least a 4-2-1 series edge, and in one of them he waxed hung a 42-37 game on a Russell who had a 9-20 game.

In '60, Wilt badly injured his hand at the end of game two, and was worthless in game three. It was the ONLY time in their 49 career H2H's that Russell clearly outplayed him. Of course, he came back with vengeance in game five, crushing Russell with a 50-35 game.

Chamberlain SHELLED Russell in the '64 Finals. However, his roster was MASSIVELY outplayed by Russell's SEVEN other HOFers.

The '68 EDF's were an overwhelming edge to Wilt after game five. But a crippled Wilt, with zero support in game seven, and with either HALF of his key teammates injured, or completely missing the series...lost a game seven by four points. In a series in which Chamberlain hung a 22-25-7 statline.

The ONLY H2H series between the two in which Russell was remotely close, was in the '69 Finals. And it was Wilt's COACH who was responsible for that.

1960:

Russell dominated Wilt in Game 3 and played him at least even in Game 6.

1962:

Wilt's stats are really boosted by his thrashing of Russell in Game 2. Russell outplayed him in Game 3 and 5. Game 1 and 7 were a wash.

1964:

Wilt was clearly better but his team was outgunned. I concede that.

1965:

Russell outplayed him in Game 3 and 5. Game 7 was a wash.

1966:

Russell outplayed him in Game 2. Game 4 was a wash.

1967:

Wilt annihilated him in every game.

1968:

Russell outplayed him in Game 4, 6, and 7.

1969:

This series was pretty equal even statistically.


1960: Edge Wilt
1962: Wash
1964: Decisive Edge Wilt
1965: Edge Wilt
1966: Edge Wilt
1967: Decisive Edge Wilt
1968: Wash
1969: Wash

[ArbitraryWater]

And Wilt's team lost every one of those game 7s. This sums up their legacies. Russell won and Wilt had the individual numbers. I would rather win.

sounding like a Kobetard..whats wrong with conceeding Wilt outplayed him but had worse teams most of the time?

[bizil]

Come on man. You're underrating the shit outta Russell.

If you don't account for differences in style of play for eras, Bill Russell is easily the greatest defender in NBA history. His defense was the driving force behind those Celtics' teams success. They were #1 in I think every year he was there and then declined as soon as he left. Defense is the main thing that wins championships and nobody was more helpful on that end than Russell.

How am I underrating Russ? He's in my top 5 GOAT!! GOAT status is the DEFINING LIST!! But peak wise, I think guys like Wilt, Shaq, Moses, Kareem, Hakeem, Ewing are BETTER than Russ. I realize Russ is arguably the greatest defender in NBA history. When u look at passing, rebounding, and defense as a package, he's arguably the best center of all time. So ONCE AGAIN, if I consider Russ one of the five greatest players of all time, HOW AM I UNDERRATING HIM!

[bizil]

LeBron, the greatest game 7 and elimination game performer of all time, incredible finals production, amazing last second %'s on playoff game winning and game tying shots, league leading in the clutch (regular season and playoffs), and producing the most efficient/best down the wire teams in the league... :bowdown:

Pressure gets tight, moment gets hot, call this guy...

I think only him, MJ, Bird, Dirk, top out on all these numerous criterias... not just clutch last second shot makers, but also big game performers (although Bird had a few too many playoff stinkers and weak elimination games).



Thats the thing, bizil repeats himself too much on his ideologies.. "alpha dog scoring", Russell is a difficult player to rank for me, but currently I hold him very high... the difference and impact he had (not just speaking but really when you look at the numbers) is otherwordly.

What do u mean I repeat myself TOO MUCH ON MY IDEOLOGIES?? My writing style is my writing style. But the thing is, what I said WAS RIGHT!! Russ wasn't an alpha dog caliber scorer.

[ArbitraryWater]

What do u mean I repeat myself TOO MUCH ON MY IDEOLOGIES?? My writing style is my writing style. But the thing is, what I said WAS RIGHT!! Russ wasn't an alpha dog caliber scorer.

Thats true, and given that he's in your top 5 you treat him fairly enough :cheers:

[ClipperRevival]

1960:

Russell dominated Wilt in Game 3 and played him at least even in Game 6.

1962:

Wilt's stats are really boosted by his thrashing of Russell in Game 2. Russell outplayed him in Game 3 and 5. Game 1 and 7 were a wash.

1964:

Wilt was clearly better but his team was outgunned. I concede that.

1965:

Russell outplayed him in Game 3 and 5. Game 7 was a wash.

1966:

Russell outplayed him in Game 2. Game 4 was a wash.

1967:

Wilt annihilated him in every game.

1968:

Russell outplayed him in Game 4, 6, and 7.

1969:

This series was pretty equal even statistically.


1960: Edge Wilt
1962: Wash
1964: Decisive Edge Wilt
1965: Edge Wilt
1966: Edge Wilt
1967: Decisive Edge Wilt
1968: Wash
1969: Wash

How did you come to this conclusion? Did you watch each game or are you going simply by the box score?

In 1968 and 1969, Wilt had the superior team and HCA and lost. If you have the superior team, HCA and you lose, I wouldn't call it a wash. 1967 is the only season where Wilt had the superior team and beat Russell, as expected.

[ClipperRevival]

sounding like a Kobetard..whats wrong with conceeding Wilt outplayed him but had worse teams most of the time?

Wilt had 3-4 inches and about 30-60 lbs (depending on when they played) over Russell. So it's not like they were physically the same size. So of course if they are going head to head, Wilt should have the superior numbers, for instance rebounding. And since Wilt is more of the focal point of the offense, he would score more too. But that doesn't tell us who actually played the best ball to help his team win. It's about winning and impact, not individual stats.

Wilt had the superior team in 1967, 1968 and 1969. He had HCA and lost in 1968 and 1969. Those two loses is what REALLY hurts his legacy.

[LAZERUSS]

How did you come to this conclusion? Did you watch each game or are you going simply by the box score?

In 1968 and 1969, Wilt had the superior team and HCA and lost. If you have the superior team, HCA and you lose, I wouldn't call it a wash. 1967 is the only season where Wilt had the superior team and beat Russell, as expected.

Wilt had the superior team in the '68 EDF's you say?

Let's take a look at that again, shall we...(thanks to PHILA's research BTW)

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328011&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328006&postcount=13

The '68 Sixer team that romped to the best record in the regular season, was NOT the same team that lost a game seven in the EDF's to the Celtics by four points.

Let me put it to you this way...

The '67 Sixers were healthy in the post-season, and they annihilated Boston (should have swept them.)

Now had the '68 Sixers been even remotely healthy, they would have duplicated their '67 EDF's romp.

Then think about this...

how about a healthy '67 Sixer team, and this scenario...

Russell with an assortment of injuries, and noticeably limping...and without Havlicek, and with Sam Jones hurting, and then losing Baily Howell and Wayne Embry during the series...

do you honestly believe that his Celtics would have even been in any one of the games (and likely only four of them)?

[AceManIII]

Wilt got more excuses than a pregnant nun :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Wilt had 3-4 inches and about 30-60 lbs (depending on when they played) over Russell. So it's not like they were physically the same size. So of course if they are going head to head, Wilt should have the superior numbers, for instance rebounding. And since Wilt is more of the focal point of the offense, he would score more too. But that doesn't tell us who actually played the best ball to help his team win. It's about winning and impact, not individual stats.

Wilt had the superior team in 1967, 1968 and 1969. He had HCA and lost in 1968 and 1969. Those two loses is what REALLY hurts his legacy.

Lol, you think the Celtics single covered Wilt? :oldlol:

They defended him with 2 men minimum, always sent help at him...


'Again they were unable to get the ball to Wilt Chamberlain. Again they were .> strated by the hawking defense and pressure applied by the Celtics'

New York Times - Apr 7, 1966

They wasted much more energy guarding Wilt than the other way around.

Yep, 1969 is the stinker...

1968 is pretty bad, although the team was kinda decimated with injuries, and it was the infamous series in which the ball didn't get to Wilt.

[QUOTE]There they are

[ClipperRevival]

Wilt had the superior team in the '68 EDF's you say?

Let's take a look at that again, shall we...(thanks to PHILA's research BTW)

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328011&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328006&postcount=13

The '68 Sixer team that romped to the best record in the regular season, was NOT the same team that lost a game seven in the EDF's to the Celtics by four points.

Let me put it to you this way...

The '67 Sixers were healthy in the post-season, and they annihilated Boston (should have swept them.)

Now had the '68 Sixers been even remotely healthy, they would have duplicated their '67 EDF's romp.

Then think about this...

how about a healthy '67 Sixer team, and this scenario...

Russell with an assortment of injuries, and noticeably limping...and without Havlicek, and with Sam Jones hurting, and then losing Baily Howell and Wayne Embry during the series...

do you honestly believe that his Celtics would have even been in any one of the games (and likely only four of them)?

Then how did Wilt's team go up 3-1?

[Young X]

How am I underrating Russ? He's in my top 5 GOAT!! GOAT status is the DEFINING LIST!! But peak wise, I think guys like Wilt, Shaq, Moses, Kareem, Hakeem, Ewing are BETTER than Russ. I realize Russ is arguably the greatest defender in NBA history. When u look at passing, rebounding, and defense as a package, he's arguably the best center of all time. So ONCE AGAIN, if I consider Russ one of the five greatest players of all time, HOW AM I UNDERRATING HIM!I felt like you were underrating his peak a little bit. I'm not an expert or anything on Russell and there's alot I don't know but based on what I know he belongs with those names even peak wise despite not being a great scorer. You're not underrating him career wise if you think he's top 5 all-time though.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Russell doesnt get brought up enough when talking about the most clutch players in history

something most nikkas dont know the first time FMVP was awarded and Jerry won it Lakers were up in that game and they did FMVP voting then. No one expected Celtics to come back but they did and Russell led the charge. Since then FMVP wasnt voted until after the series ended and Jerry remains the only one to win it on the losing team

[ClipperRevival]

Lol, you think the Celtics single covered Wilt? :oldlol:

They defended him with 2 men minimum, always sent help at him...



New York Times - Apr 7, 1966

They wasted much more energy guarding Wilt than the other way around.

Yep, 1969 is the stinker...

1968 is pretty bad, although the team was kinda decimated with injuries, and it was the infamous series in which the ball didn't get to Wilt.



DELAWARE COUNTY - April 4, 1968 (PHILA research)



Gettysburg Times - May 9, 1968 (PHILA research)

Btw, here's a picture on them defending Wilt:

https://i.gyazo.com/613f0cd21166a288c11e1af99f6fec22.png

Wilt is by Russell, but he wasn't the only one Wilt had to evade.

This is what I'm talking about. When you are that much better than anyone else, you impose your will on the game and demand the ball. Not give excuses after the game that he didn't get the ball enough. This is what losers do. I can't relate to people like that. That's why I don't respect Wilt as much as if he had given his all.

People continue to complete underrate the mental aspect of the game. The mind controls the body. If you don't want it as much as the other guy, you don't go after it possession after possession as hard. And that little lapse in focus and concentration can be the difference between winning and losing. You have to bring it on every possession. Sorry, Wilt is an all-time great, top 5 on my list but he choked several times when it mattered most and that has to count against him.

[ArbitraryWater]

Russell doesnt get brought up enough when talking about the most clutch players in history

something most nikkas dont know the first time FMVP was awarded and Jerry won it Lakers were up in that game and they did FMVP voting then. No one expected Celtics to come back but they did and Russell led the charge. Since then FMVP wasnt voted until after the series ended and Jerry remains the only one to win it on the losing team

Russell led the charge with 6 points?

Also, Lakers weren't up, they were down, down 15 points to start the 4th...

[ArbitraryWater]

Then how Wilt's team go up 3-1?

I'll quote Psileas for that:


Btw, LOL at the whole "he was at 3-1, why couldn't he win one more" being considered such a strong point to make. As if the Sixers should be expected to win 3 games anyway in that series, when it wasn't a given they'd even beat the Knicks. It was considered an achievement they got so far, yet "how could this choker lose?". And keep pretending that before Wilt's Game 6, Game 5 never existed. And that basketball is only about scoring and that Wilt collapsed just about everywhere.

It's pretty much like the Cavaliers/Warriors finals last year with them being up 2-1, can you blame LeBron or the Cavaliers for losing? No... injuries ruined them.... muh muh muh then how did they go up 2-1?!


This is what I'm talking about. When you are that much better than anyone else, you impose your will on the game and demand the ball. Not give excuses after the game that he didn't get the ball enough. This is what losers do. I can't relate to people like that. That's why I don't respect Wilt as much as if he had given his all.

People continue to complete underrate the mental aspect of the game. The mind controls the body. If you don't want it as much as the other guy, you don't go after it possession after possession as hard. And that little lapse in focus and concentration can be the difference between winning and losing. You have to bring it on every possession. Sorry, Wilt is an all-time great, top 5 on my list but he choked several times when it mattered most and that has to count against him.

See, thats whats wrong though, Russell could do just as much or less (every time), and it doesnt count as choking because he didn't have those abilities in the first place... kill Wilt for choking all you want (he underwhelmed a great deal), IMO he was still a better player than Russell and those accusations indirectly prove it.

Hannum himself admitted he called the plays from the sideline, and teammate Wali Jones admitted it was their fault not feeding him in the 2nd half (in the ESPN doc on 5 reasons why you can't blame Wilt).

How come Shaq didn't get the ball enough in the 2000 Portland game 7? Who is that on?

[ClipperRevival]

I'll quote Psileas for that:



It's pretty much like the Cavaliers/Warriors finals last year with them being up 2-1, can you blame LeBron or the Cavaliers for losing? No... injuries ruined them.... muh muh muh then how did they go up 2-1?!



See, thats whats wrong though, Russell could do just as much or less (every time), and it doesnt count as choking because he didn't have those abilities in the first place... kill Wilt for choking all you want (he underwhelmed a great deal), IMO he was still a better player than Russell and those accusations indirectly prove it.

Hannum himself admitted he called the plays from the sideline, and teammate Wali Jones admitted it was their fault not feeding him in the 2nd half (in the ESPN doc on 5 reasons why you can't blame Wilt).

How come Shaq didn't get the ball enough in the 2000 Portland game 7? Who is that on?

Asking another Wilt fan to talk about Wilt is like asking Dubeta for an objective evaluation of Bron. :oldlol:

Like I said, at least from my honest opinion, he didn't want it as much as a guy like Russell. He didn't take the game as seriously as he should have. And when you do that, the truth comes out when it matters most. The guy was a truly special talent and clearly one of the best ever but he could've done more. He should've had 4-5 rings. I just want guys to go get it once they step on the court, not leave something on the court.

[LAZERUSS]

Asking another Wilt fan to talk about Wilt is like asking Dubeta for an objective evaluation of Bron. :oldlol:

Like I said, at least from my honest opinion, he didn't want it as much as a guy like Russell. He didn't take the game as seriously as he should have. And when you do that, the truth comes out when it matters most. The guy was a truly special talent and clearly one of the best ever but he could've done more. He should've had 4-5 rings. I just want guys to go get it once they step on the court, not leave something on the court.

Me too.

Like play all 160 post-season games in your career, even in seasons in which you had major knee surgery, and were nowhere near 100%, or as was the case in '68, playing every minute of a seven game series with multiple injuries, including basically the same injury that rendered Reed a part-timer in the last three games of the '70 Finals...and then AVERAGE 47.2 mpg in those 160 games. All while crushing his HOF peers in scoring, rebounding, efficiency, passing, defense, and shot blocking.

[TripleA]

Bill Russell teams were not offensive juggernauts his teams never were first in the league for offensive rating and couple times were the worst in the league or near the bottom. They dominated by being an amazing defensive team. If Russell's teams were so stacked with talent why we're they below average offensively.

[dankok8]

How did you come to this conclusion? Did you watch each game or are you going simply by the box score?

In 1968 and 1969, Wilt had the superior team and HCA and lost. If you have the superior team, HCA and you lose, I wouldn't call it a wash. 1967 is the only season where Wilt had the superior team and beat Russell, as expected.

I'm going largely off of newspaper recaps. Russell was proclaimed the winner in a lot of games he was statistically outplayed in. LAZERUSS ignores that.

[LAZERUSS]

I'm going largely off of newspaper recaps. Russell was proclaimed the winner in a lot of games he was statistically outplayed in. LAZERUSS ignores that.

We have had these same discussions before, ...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10367322&postcount=49

And my reply...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10368365&postcount=52

And once again, the only real disagreement we have is game 1 of the '62 EDF's, in which Russell's TEAMMATES just DESTROYED Wilt's, but Chamberlain SHELLED Russell. Just because Russell "held Wilt down" for a HALF, doesn't mean he wasn't outplayed.

And I have given you links to Wilt engineering 4th quarter winning comebacks from 20 point deficits, and in games in which he hung 48 points on Russell in the process.

Those "recaps" are often very mis-leading. The bottom line is that they "credit" Russell with "wins" for outplaying Chamberlain for halves, or even quarters. Chamberlain never had the luxury where all he had to do was "hold" Russell down for periods of games. In fact, Chamberlain usually had to dominate at both ends of the floor for his teams to even have a chance to win.

[ArbitraryWater]

Asking another Wilt fan to talk about Wilt is like asking Dubeta for an objective evaluation of Bron. :oldlol:

Like I said, at least from my honest opinion, he didn't want it as much as a guy like Russell. He didn't take the game as seriously as he should have. And when you do that, the truth comes out when it matters most. The guy was a truly special talent and clearly one of the best ever but he could've done more. He should've had 4-5 rings. I just want guys to go get it once they step on the court, not leave something on the court.

Psileas isn't talking about Wilt, but a flawed illogical way of thinking, basically, yours... plus I believe he's more of an old timers guy, for the most part they just don't want those to be forgotten.

You're like on a loop, you just keep repeating yourself, no matter how much quotes or anecdotes exist about stuff you don't know too much about.

[Wade's Rings]

I known Kobe's . But I expect better from Wade and Isiah .

His stats are a little skewed.

His 1st Game 7 he played poorly in was his Rookie Year vs the Hornets.

In the next Game 7 he was hurt vs the Pistons.

[Phenith]

This Wilt/Russell argument really seems to come down to winning with good stats or losing with great stats... there is a lot of 'ifs' that would change things, but as it is, I have them about even all time. Ya Wilt outplayed Russell most of the time, but Russell won.

Truth be told, Wilt with Russell's desire to win would have been clear GOAT with no competition, but he was conceded, and liked the fame more than the game so he's just in the GOAT conversation rather than dominating it.

[dubeta]

His stats are a little skewed.

His 1st Game 7 he played poorly in was his Rookie Year vs the Hornets.

In the next Game 7 he was hurt vs the Pistons.

Excuses,

shouldve known better coming from a troll :oldlol:

[Asukal]

Bill Russell, the Wilt slayer. :applause: :bowdown:

[Round Mound]

What Where Wilts Game 7s Scoring, FG%, Rebounding Numbers (Without Blks, Which He Was The Leader Every Year)?

[La Frescobaldi]

This Wilt/Russell argument really seems to come down to winning with good stats or losing with great stats... there is a lot of 'ifs' that would change things, but as it is, I have them about even all time. Ya Wilt outplayed Russell most of the time, but Russell won.

Truth be told, Wilt with Russell's desire to win would have been clear GOAT with no competition, but he was conceded, and liked the fame more than the game so he's just in the GOAT conversation rather than dominating it.

do you think it's fair to say LeBron James is a loser or a quitter for his performance in the 2015 Finals, without Love or Irving, against a Warriors team many say was one of the greatest in history?

Surely if just LeBron just had more desire to win last year he could have beaten the Splash Twins.... right?

If Timi Dunkin just had more desire to win, Ray Allen....... would have missed that 3 a couple years ago and the Spurs would have won another ring......... right?

[knicksman]

Against Wilt in his 4 game seven's...

13.5 ppg, 24.5 rpg, and on a .465 FG%

Wilt in those four game seven's...

21.0 ppg, 28.5 rpg, and on a .638 FG%

And this...



GOAT.

If youre capable of scoring 50 ppg and you got reduced to a 21ppg. The blame is on you fakkit

[talkingconch]

Not everyone plays the same # of game 7's.

Numbers are not matched evenly

Russell played when total of 4 teams were in the league or something

[Mr Feeny]

Yup.

Wilt scoring averages:

Regular season: 30.1
Playoffs: 22.5
Finals: 18.7

They don't call him the "Big Dipper" for nothing.

This. The biggest choker in the history of the sport. 18.7:biggums:

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Of course, Russell's DEFENSE was NOT on Wilt's level in those games. Why? Because Russell had HELP in defending Wilt. At the other end, Wilt was getting called for controversial goal-tends against Sam Jones, or Sam Jones hitting the game winner over WILT...or Wilt altering Heinsohn's game-winning shot attempt, and an unguarded Russell tapping in the putback. Or Sam Jones hitting a miraculous shot after a coach's blunder. Or havlicek "stealing the ball!"

The REALITY was...and this has been verified by Russell's TEAMMATES...Russell needed a TON of help in defending Wilt.

At the other end...it was Wilt nearly defending the entire Celtic team, as well as holding Russell to WAY BELOW his normal FG%'s.

BTW, in game seven of the '62 EDF's,, articles claimed that Wilt's DEFENSE nearly won that game (and series.) Oh, and he scored Philly's last five points, including the tying basket. But, alas, as was often the case, SAM JONES hit the game winner (and again...over Wilt's outstretched fingertips.)


I had this stupidly long post written out but it got deleted.

So I'll write a shorter version

First off, I think it's rather obvious that Russell was the primary reason. Yes, he needed help, but all people need help to guard atg bigs. Otoh, with Russell out wilt scored 51.5 per game against the Celtics, and despite not having a true backup center, there was obviously some sort of reason.

But imo, we need to look at this on a offense vs defense perspective, not as a Kobe vs Lebron h2h, but a durant vs Allen h2h.

So I found a game log of wilt vs russell on hoopsnation.

1959-1960
Average: 37.6/27.0/2.3 on 46.1 %FG/49.3 %TS
vs Russell (11 games): 39.1/29.5/1.3 on 46.5 %FG/48.5 %TS
vs Russell in the playoffs: 30.5/27.5/2.0 on 50.0 %FG/51.0 %TS

1960-1961
Average: 38.4/27.2/1.9 on 50.9 %FG/51.9 %TS
vs Russell (13 games): 35.5/30.6/1.8 on 49.1 %FG/50.2 %TS

1961-1962
Average: 50.4/25.7/2.4 on 50.6 %FG/53.6 %TS
vs Russell (10 games): 39.7/28.8/2.1 on 45.8 %FG/48.3 %TS
vs Russell in the playoffs: 33.6/26.9/2.9 on 46.8 %FG/51.6 %TS

Wilt averaged 51.5 ppg on 60% shooting in two games vs Boston when Russell didn't play.

1962-1963
Average: 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8 %FG/55.0 %TS
vs Russell (9 games): 38.1/28.9 (below 50%)

1963-1964
Average: 36.9/22.3/5.0 on 52.4 %FG/53.7 %TS
vs Russell (8 games): 29.1/26.9/3.7 on 53.0 %FG/52.1 %TS
vs Russell in the playoffs: 29.2/27.6/2.4 on 51.7 %FG/50.9 %TS
Russell held Wilt almost 8 points below his averages.

1964-1965
Average: 34.7/22.9/3.4 on 51.0 %FG/51.3 %TS
vs Russell (11 games): 25.4/26.5/4.2 on 47.3 %FG/46.9 %TS
vs Russell in the playoffs: 30.1/31.4/3.3 on 55.5 %FG/57.7 %TS

1965-1966
Average: 33.5/24.6/5.2 on 54.0 %FG/54.7 %TS
vs Russell (9 wgames): 28.3/30.7
vs Russell in the playoffs: 28.0/30.2/3.0 on 50.9 %FG/50.0 %TS

1966-1967
Average: 24.1/24.2/7.8 on 68.3 %FG/63.7 %TS
vs. Russell (9 games): 20.3/26.7/6.6 (53% I think)
vs. Russell in the playoffs: 21.6/32.0/10.0 on 55.6 %FG/56.1 %TS

1967-1968
Average: 24.3/23.8/8.6 on 59.5 %FG/55.7 %TS
vs Russell (8 games): 17.1/26.1/8.5 (somewhat below 50%)
vs Russell in the playoffs: 22.1/25.1/6.7 on 48.7 %FG/48.5 %TS

1968-1969
Average: 20.5/21.1/4.5 on 58.3 %FG/56.4 %TS
vs Russell (6 games): 16.3/24.0/4.8 on 50.7 %FG/49.7 %TS
vs Russell in the playoffs: 11.7/25.0/3.0 on 50.0 %FG/47.1 %TS

Now, players rarely have more than 10 points of pure impact. Even 09 Lebron didn't have it I recall.

For example, the Warriors before wilt were losing by 3 points a game. When wilt came they won by 3-5 points a game. (No minutes/lineup adjustments are needed since he played 48 minutes)

Now, looking at Russell as a defender.

While the casual fan might believe wilt shot low percentages for his position, it was still above league average, so the idea that Russell "shut wilt down" is idiotic.

In fact, guarding wilt meant he had to pay 100% attention to him, hindering the best part about Russell, his off all defense.

Nevertheless, wilt's efficiency was hindered.

Now, wilt still had his customary 50 pointers against Russell, but Russell did a good job on him

Now let's look at russell's impact.

Now, it has been said by hannum that players relied on wilt too much, and ended up being worse individually as a result of it.

So a team that shoots 38% without wilt is basically worse off individually. (Not counting wilt of course).

So in 61-62, wilt "lost" 17 points against Russell.

Those 17 points are going to a team that are worse versions of already very inept offensive players

So that's already 2-3 points of impact

Then, you have wilt missing a few shots he would have made because of Russell

That's 3-4 more points of impact

And then you have the hindered but still present off-ball defense and turnovers since he stole entry passes, and rebounds

That's 1-1.5points of impact

Then you subtract that with his offense going down because of wilt.

That's -0.5 to -1 points of impact.

It's still a lot of Impact, to say the least

Now, the thing is, I actually think that

WILT did win these battles

But i think we have to look at it in a offense vs defense scenario, not as a box score comparison.

Although, I have to say it, the idea that wilt is. "Choker" is just made by trolls who think that context means excuses.

And anyway, this is ignoring the fact that wilt still was absolutely dominating, and he had great defensive presence as well.

[deja vu]

Is there any player in NBA history with more excuses than Wilt?

When he wins, people say he dominated.

When he loses, people blame his teammates, the coach, the weather, etc.

[LAZERUSS]

I had this stupidly long post written out but it got deleted.

So I'll write a shorter version

First off, I think it's rather obvious that Russell was the primary reason. Yes, he needed help, but all people need help to guard atg bigs. Otoh, with Russell out wilt scored 51.5 per game against the Celtics, and despite not having a true backup center, there was obviously some sort of reason.

But imo, we need to look at this on a offense vs defense perspective, not as a Kobe vs Lebron h2h, but a durant vs Allen h2h.

So I found a game log of wilt vs russell on hoopsnation.

1959-1960
Average: 37.6/27.0/2.3 on 46.1 %FG/49.3 %TS
vs Russell (11 games): 39.1/29.5/1.3 on 46.5 %FG/48.5 %TS
vs Russell in the playoffs: 30.5/27.5/2.0 on 50.0 %FG/51.0 %TS

1960-1961
Average: 38.4/27.2/1.9 on 50.9 %FG/51.9 %TS
vs Russell (13 games): 35.5/30.6/1.8 on 49.1 %FG/50.2 %TS

1961-1962
Average: 50.4/25.7/2.4 on 50.6 %FG/53.6 %TS
vs Russell (10 games): 39.7/28.8/2.1 on 45.8 %FG/48.3 %TS
vs Russell in the playoffs: 33.6/26.9/2.9 on 46.8 %FG/51.6 %TS

Wilt averaged 51.5 ppg on 60% shooting in two games vs Boston when Russell didn't play.

1962-1963
Average: 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8 %FG/55.0 %TS
vs Russell (9 games): 38.1/28.9 (below 50%)

1963-1964
Average: 36.9/22.3/5.0 on 52.4 %FG/53.7 %TS
vs Russell (8 games): 29.1/26.9/3.7 on 53.0 %FG/52.1 %TS
vs Russell in the playoffs: 29.2/27.6/2.4 on 51.7 %FG/50.9 %TS
Russell held Wilt almost 8 points below his averages.

1964-1965
Average: 34.7/22.9/3.4 on 51.0 %FG/51.3 %TS
vs Russell (11 games): 25.4/26.5/4.2 on 47.3 %FG/46.9 %TS
vs Russell in the playoffs: 30.1/31.4/3.3 on 55.5 %FG/57.7 %TS

1965-1966
Average: 33.5/24.6/5.2 on 54.0 %FG/54.7 %TS
vs Russell (9 wgames): 28.3/30.7
vs Russell in the playoffs: 28.0/30.2/3.0 on 50.9 %FG/50.0 %TS

1966-1967
Average: 24.1/24.2/7.8 on 68.3 %FG/63.7 %TS
vs. Russell (9 games): 20.3/26.7/6.6 (53% I think)
vs. Russell in the playoffs: 21.6/32.0/10.0 on 55.6 %FG/56.1 %TS

1967-1968
Average: 24.3/23.8/8.6 on 59.5 %FG/55.7 %TS
vs Russell (8 games): 17.1/26.1/8.5 (somewhat below 50%)
vs Russell in the playoffs: 22.1/25.1/6.7 on 48.7 %FG/48.5 %TS

1968-1969
Average: 20.5/21.1/4.5 on 58.3 %FG/56.4 %TS
vs Russell (6 games): 16.3/24.0/4.8 on 50.7 %FG/49.7 %TS
vs Russell in the playoffs: 11.7/25.0/3.0 on 50.0 %FG/47.1 %TS

Now, players rarely have more than 10 points of pure impact. Even 09 Lebron didn't have it I recall.

For example, the Warriors before wilt were losing by 3 points a game. When wilt came they won by 3-5 points a game. (No minutes/lineup adjustments are needed since he played 48 minutes)

Now, looking at Russell as a defender.

While the casual fan might believe wilt shot low percentages for his position, it was still above league average, so the idea that Russell "shut wilt down" is idiotic.

In fact, guarding wilt meant he had to pay 100% attention to him, hindering the best part about Russell, his off all defense.

Nevertheless, wilt's efficiency was hindered.

Now, wilt still had his customary 50 pointers against Russell, but Russell did a good job on him

Now let's look at russell's impact.

Now, it has been said by hannum that players relied on wilt too much, and ended up being worse individually as a result of it.

So a team that shoots 38% without wilt is basically worse off individually. (Not counting wilt of course).

So in 61-62, wilt "lost" 17 points against Russell.

Those 17 points are going to a team that are worse versions of already very inept offensive players

So that's already 2-3 points of impact

Then, you have wilt missing a few shots he would have made because of Russell

That's 3-4 more points of impact

And then you have the hindered but still present off-ball defense and turnovers since he stole entry passes, and rebounds

That's 1-1.5points of impact

Then you subtract that with his offense going down because of wilt.

That's -0.5 to -1 points of impact.

It's still a lot of Impact, to say the least

Now, the thing is, I actually think that

WILT did win these battles

But i think we have to look at it in a offense vs defense scenario, not as a box score comparison.

Although, I have to say it, the idea that wilt is. "Choker" is just made by trolls who think that context means excuses.

And anyway, this is ignoring the fact that wilt still was absolutely dominating, and he had great defensive presence as well.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Obviously Russell had an impact on the defensive end against Wilt. Generally throughout his entire career Wilt's numbers declined against Russell as compared to his averages against the rest of the league. And only Nate Thurmond was able to slow Chamberlain down moreso (albeit, the two only met 12 times in Wilt's "scoring" seasons.)

But again, even Russell's teammates like Tommy Heinsohn and KC Jones acknowledged that it was a team effort against Wilt. And I won't bother looking up the Costas interview with both Wilt and Russell (it's on YouTube), but in that interview, and with Russell sitting right next to him, Chamberlain mentioned that he [Wilt], was not only being defended by Russell, but by "two or three other guys." And the limited video footage available confirms it (at least thru Wilt's '67 season.)

But what also seems to be ignored in the Wilt-Russell debates was just how much Wilt lowered Russell's offensive efficiency. Russell shot .438 against the NBA in the ten years that he played with Wilt. How about against Wilt in that span? .382. BTW, KAJ's career FG% was .559...against Wilt in their 28 career H2H's... .464. Oh, and in the H2Hs we have (which is now most of them)..Thurmond shot, get this... .360 against Chamberain. And and in the known H2H's with Bellamy, Wilt dramatically lowered his FG%, as well. I don't have the exact number, but as an example, in Bellamy's '68 season, he shot .541 against the league, and against Wilt in their '68 playoff series... .421.

All-in-all, though, Chamberlain averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg against Russell in their 143 career H2H's, and thru his "scoring" seasons, it was around 34 ppg. And Wilt outscored Russell in 132 of those 143 games, and in many of those, by huge margins. So, the bottom line was, Russell seldom outplayed Chamberlain, and in many of their H2H's, Wilt just waxed Russell.

I won't go into the "teammate" comparisons now, either, but there was never a doubt that Russell played alongside more talented supporting casts, at least up thru '66. From '67 to '69, they were pretty equal. However, with equal rosters, that were healthy, (and with a healthy Wilt), we saw what happened in '67. Wilt and his Sixers just stomped Russell and his eight-time champions. And they likely would have repeated it again in the '68 EDF's had they been healthy. The only season in which Wilt had at least as much talent, that was healthy, and lost, was in '69 (and not only did they lose a game seven by two points, but they were one play away from winning the series, 4-1.)

And as John Wooden said...had the two swapped rosters (and coaches), and it likely would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

[SexSymbol]

Russell is the GOAT by a pretty good margin

[La Frescobaldi]

Laz,

You are just so sad when it comes to Wilt. All you do is look at individual numbers and blame everyone else for Wilt's failures. It's always someone else's fault.

it's pretty fair to say a guy who has lots of teammates that shoot in the 30%s on the regular is not playing on good teams.

he played with D1 college level players a LOT. No match for other players around the league.

OP did you know Sam Jones made 6 win-or-go-home shots? 6 season enders in a row if he missed...... he never missed a single one. Not even once did he miss one. That's just as impressive as the op post if you think about it.
Did you know Havlicek was the best Celtic after about '67? Russell himself was very candid about it.

Take a look at this shot right here:
http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2011/07/22/history_1969_nelson_shot.nba/

it's like Horry level of luck having the ball fall into your hands like that.... and then that bounce lol
But yet that's one of these 10-0 games right there.

If Ray Allen bailed out LBJ then Russell is the most bailed out player in NBA history because he was surrounded by Ray Ray types who had Horry type luck.

[LAZERUSS]

I'm surprised that this would be coming from you. You are way too a good a poster to post this without CONTEXT.

But, I'll play along...

Chamberlain averaged 30 ppg in his regular season career. 40 ppg in his first seven seasons, and 20 ppg in his last seven seasons.

Does that mean he couldn't score more in the last half of his career? Well, you tell me. He had the HIGH games in the NBA in each season from '67 thru '69...in year's in which he averaged 24, 24, and 21 ppg. Oh, and he had a new coach at the start of the '70 season, Joe Mullaney, who asked him to become the focal point of the offense. Chamberlain erupted for 32.2 ppg (on a .579 FG%) and was leading the league in those first nine games. And this was not inflated by one or two big games, either. He had games of 33 (deceptive...he was injured after playing 28 minutes, and was 13-14 from the floor when the injury occurred), 35, 37 (against 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle), 38 (against reigning MVP Wes Unseld), 42 (against Bob Rule...go ahead and look him up), and 43 (against Connie Dierking...which was nowhere near his career high game against Dierking,...but was more than KAJ would ever hang on Dierking.) Oh, and in the one H2H with Kareem, before he shredded his knee, he outscored him, 25-23; outrebounded him, 25-20; outassisted him, 5-2; outblocked him, 3-2 (including two skyhooks), and outshot him 9-14 to 9-21. Unfortunately, Wilt shredded his knee in that ninth game, and was never the same again.

Continuing...

In his "scoring" prime, from '60 thru '66, he averaged 40 ppg against the NBA, and "only" 33 ppg in the playoffs. Of course, he only played 52 playoff games in his scoring prime, out of his 160. And 30 of those 52 came against Russell. In those 30 games against Russell, he averaged 31 ppg on a .507 FG%...or slightly below his 34 ppg against Russell in their regular season H2H's in that same span. BTW, the playoff scoring and FG%'s declined considerably for the entire league in those years. Oh, and his team was so bad in his '63 season, that they missed the playoffs...in a season in which he averaged 45 ppg.

So let's review, shall we...

He averaged 40 ppg in his regular seasons from '60 thru '66, and "only" 33 ppg in his 52 playoff games. BUT, he missed a season in which he averaged 45 ppg, so his regular season scoring in those years, minus his '63 season, was about 38 ppg. So, the "decline" was about 4 ppg. BUT, 30 of his 52 playoff games were against Russell and his Dynasty. In those, he averaged 31 ppg.

Continued...

Ok, so as we now can plainly see, Wilt's "decline" in the post season in his "scoring seasons" has been greatly exaggerated.

And keep in mind that he was facing Russell in 60% of those games. Let's put that in perspective.

MJ's numbers declined considerably from his regular season production, against the Bad Boys in his post-season H2H's from '88 thru '91 (and particularly from '88 thru '90 and before the Pistons crumbled.) His drop in '88 was massive BTW.

Shaq's numbers dropped considerably against the Robinson-led Spurs from '99 to '02. In '02 it was a huge drop.

When a peak Kareem faced Thurmond and Wilt five times in the post-season from '71 thru '73, his numbers dropped off the cliff.

When Bird faced the Lakers in his post-seasons, his numbers declined considerably.

And, of course, when Kobe faced great defensive teams in the Finals, like the '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics...well, he was awful.


Now, let's take a look at the second half of Wilt's post-season career.

Again, and thanks to running into Russell's Celtics in either his first or second round, and missing the playoffs entirely in his second greatest scoring season, he only played in 52 of his 160 post-season games, in his "scoring" prime. And again, he still busted Russell up pretty good with post-seasons of 30.5 ppg, 33.6 ppg, 29.2 ppg, 30.1 ppg, and 28.0 ppg....while shooting .500, .468, .517, .555, and .509 from the field, in post-seasons that shot between .402 to .429 in that same span.

Ok, now on to '67. Wilt's new coach, Alex Hannum, had Wilt become the facilitator of the offense, and the result was a dramatic drop in Chamberlain's scoring (albeit on a staggering FG%.) BUT, every so often Chamberlain would go out and hang a huge game just to prove that he still could. Interesting too, that the scoring leader that season, Rick Barry, who averaged the highest full-time non-Wilt high in the Wilt-era of 35.6 ppg, claimed that he [Barry] won the scoring title, only because Wilt didn't want it.

And in Wilt's first two playoff games, against a merely average center, he hung games of 41 and 39 points, on a .648 FG%. In his next game, he "only" scored 16 points, BUT, handed out a then playoff record 19 assists, to go along with 30 rebounds, and an estimated 20 blocked shots. For that short series, Wilt averaged 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, and shot .617 from the field.

In his next round he faced Russell and the eight-time defending champion and 60-21 Celtics. In his regular season H2H's with Russell, he had averaged 20.3 ppg on a .549 FG%. In this series he averaged 21.6 ppg on a .556...all while holding Russell to 11.2 ppg on a .358...and outrebounding him, 32.0 to 23.4 rpg. Oh, and he averaged 10.0 pg per game too...or his second consecutive triple-double series. BTW, in the clinching game five blowout win, Wilt outscored Russell, 29-4 (with 22 points coming in the first half, and with the game still close); outassisted him, 13-7; outrebounded him, 36-21; and outshot from the floor, 10-16 to 2-5.

In the Finals, he faced a peak Thurmond, in Nate's greatest season. During the regular season, Chamberlain had averaged 20.8 ppg on an incredible .633 FG%. His numbers declined a little from that...down to 17.5 ppg on a .560...all while holding Thurmond to 14.3 ppg on a .343 FG%. In any case, Chamberlain outscored Nate in five of the six games; outrebounded Nate in five of the six games; outassisted Nate in five of the six games; and outshot Thurmond in EVERY game. In the clinching game six win, Chamberlain outscored Nate, 24-12, and outshot him, 8-13 to 4-13. Clearly a dominant performance for only a "17.5 ppg" scorer.

So, here was Wilt's "decline" in his '67 post-season. His numbers dropped from 24.1 ppg, 24.3 rpg, 7.8 apg, and on a .683 FG%...to 21.7 ppg, 29.0 rpg, 9.0 apg, and on a .579 FG%...with two of the series coming against two of the three GOAT defensive centers in NBA history... and in series in which he just CRUSHED them in EVERY facet of the game.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Chamberlain's '68 post-season scoring was actually very close to his regular season scoring...down from 24.3 ppg to 23.7 ppg. But, he was playing with an assortment of injuries, including a muscle tear in his calf, and was noticeably limping in the playoffs. He still battered Walt Bellamy in the first round, outscoring him 25.5 ppg to 20.0 ppg; outrebounding him, 24.2 to 16.0 rpg; and outshooting him from the field, .584 to .421 (Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA during the regular season.)

In the EDF's an injured Chamberlain dragged an injury-decimated team that was missing HOFer Billy Cunningham, to a 3-1 series lead. In what could have been a close out game, in game five, Wilt lost two more starters (on a roster that was not very deep to begin with), in a loss. However, Chamberlain held up his end. He pounded Russell by outscoring him, 28-8; outrebounding him, 30-24; and outshooting him, 11-21 to 4-10.

Up to that point, Wilt had outscored Russell per game, 24.2 ppg to 13.3 ppg; outrebounded him, per game, 23.0 rpg to 22.0 rpg; outshot him, .539 to .416; and outassisted him 6.8 apg to 5.4 apg. However, having played every minute of every game in the playoffs, including three games in three nights against the Knicks earlier, and nursing those injuries, he was now playing on fumes. He was still a force on the glass in the last two games, but his efficiency dropped like a lead balloon. Furthermore, his teammates didn't even get him the ball at all in game seven, all while they were shooting a combined 33%, and the Sixers lost game seven by four points.

For the series, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 22.1 ppg to 13.7 ppg; outrebounded Russell, 25.1 rpg to 23.9 rpg; outassisted Russell, 6.7 apg to 4.1 apg; and outshot Russell (by the closest margin in the history of their playoff H2H's), .487 to .440.

BTW, even Russell commented that.. "a lessor man would not have played." Meaning that virtually NO ONE else would have been playing under the same circumstances.

Continued...

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Obviously Russell had an impact on the defensive end against Wilt. Generally throughout his entire career Wilt's numbers declined against Russell as compared to his averages against the rest of the league. And only Nate Thurmond was able to slow Chamberlain down moreso (albeit, the two only met 12 times in Wilt's "scoring" seasons.)

But again, even Russell's teammates like Tommy Heinsohn and KC Jones acknowledged that it was a team effort against Wilt. And I won't bother looking up the Costas interview with both Wilt and Russell (it's on YouTube), but in that interview, and with Russell sitting right next to him, Chamberlain mentioned that he [Wilt], was not only being defended by Russell, but by "two or three other guys." And the limited video footage available confirms it (at least thru Wilt's '67 season.)

But what also seems to be ignored in the Wilt-Russell debates was just how much Wilt lowered Russell's offensive efficiency. Russell shot .438 against the NBA in the ten years that he played with Wilt. How about against Wilt in that span? .382. BTW, KAJ's career FG% was .559...against Wilt in their 28 career H2H's... .464. Oh, and in the H2Hs we have (which is now most of them)..Thurmond shot, get this... .360 against Chamberain. And and in the known H2H's with Bellamy, Wilt dramatically lowered his FG%, as well. I don't have the exact number, but as an example, in Bellamy's '68 season, he shot .541 against the league, and against Wilt in their '68 playoff series... .421.

All-in-all, though, Chamberlain averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg against Russell in their 143 career H2H's, and thru his "scoring" seasons, it was around 34 ppg. And Wilt outscored Russell in 132 of those 143 games, and in many of those, by huge margins. So, the bottom line was, Russell seldom outplayed Chamberlain, and in many of their H2H's, Wilt just waxed Russell.

I won't go into the "teammate" comparisons now, either, but there was never a doubt that Russell played alongside more talented supporting casts, at least up thru '66. From '67 to '69, they were pretty equal. However, with equal rosters, that were healthy, (and with a healthy Wilt), we saw what happened in '67. Wilt and his Sixers just stomped Russell and his eight-time champions. And they likely would have repeated it again in the '68 EDF's had they been healthy. The only season in which Wilt had at least as much talent, that was healthy, and lost, was in '69 (and not only did they lose a game seven by two points, but they were one play away from winning the series, 4-1.)

And as John Wooden said...had the two swapped rosters (and coaches), and it likely would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

I mean, I completely agree. even in the year after, they did go to game 7 hobbled. (That's mostly the reason I have wilt ahead of Russell i. Those game 7s)

But while the team effort is completely true, I would say that Russell was still the ex factor.

And for that last point, I'll have to disagree. This isn't a knock on wilt, but more of praise for Russell. I don't think you could replace Russell with anyone, solely because he did so much that I'm not willing to bet against it lol.

Otoh, wilt peaked higher than Russell did, more than once too.

[LAZERUSS]

This. The biggest choker in the history of the sport. 18.7:biggums:

I could, and have, trashed this nonsense many times...but how about this...

Chamberlain won a FMVP in a series in which he averaged 19.4 ppg, and would surely have won a FMVP in a series in which he averaged 17.5 ppg (had the award existed at the time.) So, in those two series, Wilt averaged about 18.5 ppg combined.

And of course, he also averaged 23.2 rpg, and 28.5 rpg in those two series; and shot .600 and .560 from the floor, as well.

Next...

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Chamberlain's '68 post-season scoring was actually very close to his regular season scoring...down from 24.3 ppg to 23.7 ppg. But, he was playing with an assortment of injuries, including a muscle tear in his calf, and was noticeably limping in the playoffs. He still battered Walt Bellamy in the first round, outscoring him 25.5 ppg to 20.0 ppg; outrebounding him, 24.2 to 16.0 rpg; and outshooting him from the field, .584 to .421 (Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA during the regular season.)

In the EDF's an injured Chamberlain dragged an injury-decimated team that was missing HOFer Billy Cunningham, to a 3-1 series lead. In what could have been a close out game, in game five, Wilt lost two more starters (on a roster that was not very deep to begin with), in a loss. However, Chamberlain held up his end. He pounded Russell by outscoring him, 28-8; outrebounding him, 30-24; and outshooting him, 11-21 to 4-10.

Up to that point, Wilt had outscored Russell per game, 24.2 ppg to 13.3 ppg; outrebounded him, per game, 23.0 rpg to 22.0 rpg; outshot him, .539 to .416; and outassisted him 6.8 apg to 5.4 apg. However, having played every minute of every game in the playoffs, including three games in three nights against the Knicks earlier, and nursing those injuries, he was now playing on fumes. He was still a force on the glass in the last two games, but his efficiency dropped like a lead balloon. Furthermore, his teammates didn't even get him the ball at all in game seven, all while they were shooting a combined 33%, and the Sixers lost game seven by four points.

For the series, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 22.1 ppg to 13.7 ppg; outrebounded Russell, 25.1 rpg to 23.9 rpg; outassisted Russell, 6.7 apg to 4.1 apg; and outshot Russell (by the closest margin in the history of their playoff H2H's), .487 to .440.

BTW, even Russell commented that.. "a lessor man would not have played." Meaning that virtually NO ONE else would have been playing under the same circumstances.

Continued...


Uhh, is is a reply to me?

Because I agree, I was just stating a case for russell

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

I could, and have, trashed this nonsense many times...but how about this...

Chamberlain won a FMVP in a series in which he averaged 19.4 ppg, and would surely have won a FMVP in a series in which he averaged 17.5 ppg (had the award existed at the time.) So, in those two series, Wilt averaged about 18.5 ppg combined.

And of course, he also averaged 23.2 rpg, and 28.5 rpg in those two series; and shot .600 and .560 from the floor, as well.

Next...

Wait, just wondering,

What percentages did wilt hold Russell too?

Because I'd contend that those percentages wouldn't effect Russell as much as wilt, if that makes sense.

Mostly because of sheer volume.

[LAZERUSS]

Wait, just wondering,

What percentages did wilt hold Russell too?

Because I'd contend that those percentages wouldn't effect Russell as much as wilt, if that makes sense.

Mostly because of sheer volume.

In their known 143 career H2H's, of which we have almost all the data now, Chamberlain outshot Russell by a .497 to .382 margin (it may be slightly different now, as more data has become available since that last time I looked.)

I believe Julizaver, who is as knowledgeable a source on the subject as there is, had Wilt with a .513 to .417 margin in their 49 post-season games.

And I believe you have already posted their individual post-season series numbers.

BTW, most "bashers" here point to Wilt's overall drop from his regular season numbers, down to his playoff numbers, but as Psileas has pointed out before, if you use Wilt's regular season numbers against the same centers and teams he would face in his playoff H2H's, he had just as many series in which he elevated his scoring, as he did in which they declined.

[LAZERUSS]

Uhh, is is a reply to me?

Because I agree, I was just stating a case for russell

No, actually it was a reply to SouthbeachTalent who posted the usual "30-22-18" line, that, without context, is pure nonsense.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

In their known 143 career H2H's, of which we have almost all the data now, Chamberlain outshot Russell by a .497 to .382 margin (it may be slightly different now, as more data has become available since that last time I looked.)

I believe Julizaver, who is as knowledgeable a source on the subject as there is, had Wilt with a .513 to .417 margin in their 49 post-season games.

And I believe you have already posted their individual post-season series numbers.

BTW, most "bashers" here point to Wilt's overall drop from his regular season numbers, down to his playoff numbers, but as Psileas has pointed out before, if you use Wilt's regular season numbers against the same centers and teams he would face in his playoff H2H's, he had just as many series in which he elevated his scoring, as he did in which they declined.


Oh my god I'm an idiot.

But anyhow, wouldn't him shooting 39-40% only mean he missed around 0.5-1.2shots he would normally make?

[FKAri]

Most stacked help in the history of the sport :applause:

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Most stacked help in the history of the sport :applause:

Well history of the sport means all games.

I saw my school team get blown out 18-97

Sooooo...

[LAZERUSS]

Chamberlain's '68 post-season scoring was actually very close to his regular season scoring...down from 24.3 ppg to 23.7 ppg. But, he was playing with an assortment of injuries, including a muscle tear in his calf, and was noticeably limping in the playoffs. He still battered Walt Bellamy in the first round, outscoring him 25.5 ppg to 20.0 ppg; outrebounding him, 24.2 to 16.0 rpg; and outshooting him from the field, .584 to .421 (Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA during the regular season.)

In the EDF's an injured Chamberlain dragged an injury-decimated team that was missing HOFer Billy Cunningham, to a 3-1 series lead. In what could have been a close out game, in game five, Wilt lost two more starters (on a roster that was not very deep to begin with), in a loss. However, Chamberlain held up his end. He pounded Russell by outscoring him, 28-8; outrebounding him, 30-24; and outshooting him, 11-21 to 4-10.

Up to that point, Wilt had outscored Russell per game, 24.2 ppg to 13.3 ppg; outrebounded him, per game, 23.0 rpg to 22.0 rpg; outshot him, .539 to .416; and outassisted him 6.8 apg to 5.4 apg. However, having played every minute of every game in the playoffs, including three games in three nights against the Knicks earlier, and nursing those injuries, he was now playing on fumes. He was still a force on the glass in the last two games, but his efficiency dropped like a lead balloon. Furthermore, his teammates didn't even get him the ball at all in game seven, all while they were shooting a combined 33%, and the Sixers lost game seven by four points.

For the series, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 22.1 ppg to 13.7 ppg; outrebounded Russell, 25.1 rpg to 23.9 rpg; outassisted Russell, 6.7 apg to 4.1 apg; and outshot Russell (by the closest margin in the history of their playoff H2H's), .487 to .440.

BTW, even Russell commented that.. "a lessor man would not have played." Meaning that virtually NO ONE else would have been playing under the same circumstances.

Continued...

Continuing on with Wilt's post-season "decline"...

Chamberlain did have a poor (for him) '69 post-season, and easily the worst series of his entire career in the Finals.

And he had big drop-off in ppg from the regular season, of 20.5 ppg, to 11.7 ppg in the Finals. Even I won't completely excuse this post-season, but there was much blame to go around in the Lakers losing a game seven in the Finals, by two points.

First of all, Elgin Baylor. The reality was, Baylor was just awful in the Finals. He shot .397 (and had the worst post-season FG% on the entire team at .385.) Not only that, but in three losses, he shot 2-14 (and 1-6 from the line...in a one point loss); 4-18; and in game seven, 8-22. It is BAYLOR who deserves the brunt of the blame..at least in terms of player production.

However, and without question, THE biggest reason for that series loss was Butch "the Butcher" Van Breda Kolff. VBK's hatred for Wilt essentially cost the city of Los Angeles their first ever title, and it certainly cost him his coaching career.

He made coaching blunder-after-coaching blunder the entire series. The 4th quarter of game seven is available on YouTube. Early in the period, Russell picked up his 5th personal foul (BTW, he was nowhere to be found the rest of the entire quarter.) The Lakers immediately inbounded to Chamberlain, who went right around the matador Russell for an easy layin. It would be the last time Chamberlain would touch the ball in the low post.

VBK also clearly cost the Lakers game four in Boston...which ultimately cost the Lakers a 4-1 series romp. The Lakers were leading the series, 2-1, and were leading with only seconds remaining, 88-87...AND, they had the BALL. Obviously VBK put the ball in West's hands right? Hell no...he had Johnny POS Egan handling it...and the inevitable happened. He was stripped of the ball, and then Sam Jones (yes the CLUTCH Sam Jones), hit the game-winner at the buzzer, all while falling to the floor. Given that the Lakers easily won game five (in a game in which Chamberlain finally punished Russell)...LA would have won that series, 4-1.

His biggest coaching blunder? No doubt about it...leaving Wilt on the bench in the last few minutes in game seven...in a two point loss.

And before Bill Simmons pops in and claims that the Lakers cut the deficit with Wilt on the bench...how about this? With ten minutes left in the game, the Lakers were down by 17 points. They staged a furious rally (aided by Sam Jones fouling out), and with little over five minutes, they had cut ten points off the deficit, to seven. Wilt had been injured, but continued to play, and in fact, grabbed as many rebounds, with an injured leg, on two straight possessions, as Russell did the entire period. But, Wilt had to come out. Even VBK admitted afterwards, that Chamberlain was hurt.

In any case, a couple of minutes later, Wilt asked to go back in, and VBK refused. Wilt's "replacement" Mel Counts, who would shoot 4-13 from the floor in that game...missed a shot with a minute left, and had a turnover with less than a minute remaining...which ultimately killed the Laker rally. Oh, and this time it was Don Nelson's turn to hit a miraculous game-winner. Two miraculous game-winners in the same series. So, with Wilt, LA had cut 10 points off of a 17 point deficit in about five minutes, and without him, they cut five more points in the next five minutes...ultimately falling short by two points.

VBK immediately quit...knowing full well that he was going to get fired. And his coaching career went right down the toilet.

Still, this was Wilt's worst post-season series of his entire career. However, he still outplayed Russell, and he absolutely outplayed him in game seven. In game seven, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 18-6; outrebounded him, 27-21; and outshot him from the floor, 7-8 to 2-7. And how about this stat...take away Wilt's and Russell's FG%'s in that game seven...and Russell's teammates outshot Wilt's by a .477 to .360 margin...in a two point win!

Interesting too, that Jack Kent Cooke brought in a new coach the very next year, Joe Mullaney, with strict orders to make Wilt the focal point of the Laker offense. And a rejuvenated Wilt responded by leading the league in scoring, at 32.2 ppg (on a .579 FG%, as well as leading the league in rebounding, at 20.6 rpg)...when he went down with a devastating injury in game nine (in a game in which he had scored 33 points, on 13-14 shooting, and in only 28 minutes.)

Continued...

[ClipperRevival]

:facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's 69-70 season.

Again, and with a new coach, whose first of business was to make WILT the focal point of the Laker offense...

Wilt reeled off a nine game streak of leading the league in scoring, at 32.2 ppg (West averaged 30.8 ppg in that same span BTW) on a .579 FG%. And his numbers weren't inflated by 1-2 or big games, either.

He had games of 33 points (in only 28 minutes, and likely was on his way to a 40, and perhaps even 50 point game), 35, 37 (against 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle), 38 (against reigning MVP Wes Unseld), 42 (against Bob Rule, ...just look him up, he was on his way to a bright career), and 43 (against Connie Dierking...which was nowhere near Wilt's most dominant game against Dierking, but which would surpass a peak KAJ's high game against Dierking of 41 points.)

Oh, and in his only H2H with Kareem, before his injury, he badly outplayed KAJ in every facet of the game, and hung a 25-20-5 game (with two blocks of the "unblockable" sky-hook) and on 9-14 shooting.

Unfortunately for Wilt, he shredded his knee in that ninth game, and would never be the same again.

Medical opinion at the time ranged from Wilt being out a year, to perhaps this being a career-ending injury (Wilt was 33, and around 300 lbs.)

Amazingly, Chamberlain returned late in the season (and at nowhere near 100%...but he did so for his TEAMMATES.) In his last three games, he averaged 12 ppg.

In his '70 playoffs, he averaged 22-22-5 .549...all basically on one leg, and with very little vertical (which would return the next year.) In first round, after a slow start, and with his Lakers down 3-1, he hung three straight huge games, to tally his team back from that deficit to win that series. Then a sweep of the Hawks. And in his Finals, he dragged that 46-36 team to a game seven, against the favored 60-22 Knicks, and hung the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%.) In game six, in a must win game, he erupted for a 45 point game, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. And in the clinching game seven loss, he put up a 21-24 10-16 game.

The "heroic" Reed won the FMVP, but clearly it was a joke. First of all, a much healthier Reed, at his peak, was played to a draw by a one-legged Wilt in the first four games. And in game five, Chamberlain was pummeling him before he went down with his muscle tear (which was similar to what Wilt played with for every minute of the seven game '68 EDF's.) In fact, the series was tied 2-2, and Reed's team was DOWN by 10 points when he suffered the injury.

However, with what NY Times writer Leonard Koppett described as a officiating "robbery", the Knicks "harrassed" the rest of the Lakers in game five, and a stunning comeback win. BTW, Wilt took three second half shots, and West only two.

In game six, albeit without Reed, Chamberlain hung one of the greatest Finals games in NBA history (and a MUST WIN Finals game at that), with that 45-27 stat-line.

Alas, in game seven, the Knicks, behind Walt Frazier's demolition of Jerry West, routed LA. NY hit 15 of their 21 first shots, and rolled out to a 69-42 halftime lead. I have long maintained that a team of "MJ's" would not have beaten NY in that game.

Anyway...and back to the FMVP. I could see a case for Frazier, except that West had the better of him until that disastrous game seven. But REED? Again, the series was tied 2-2, and his team was losing in game five when he went down.

Oh, and in the last three pivotal games of that series... Wilt outscored Reed, 88-10; outrebounded him, 71-3; and outshot him by a 39-55 (.708) to 4-10 (.400) margin. Granted, Reed missed three-quarters of one game, and completely missed another, but none-the-less, Wilt was not only the best Laker in the last three games of that series (and ultimately the entire series), but clearly was the best player on the floor in the last three games (and ultimately, the series.)

The bottom line...there was no decline by a way-less-than 100% Wilt in the '70 post-season. In fact, he was spectacular.

[julizaver]

I believe Julizaver, who is as knowledgeable a source on the subject as there is, had Wilt with a .513 to .417 margin in their 49 post-season games.

And I believe you have already posted their individual post-season series numbers.

BTW, most "bashers" here point to Wilt's overall drop from his regular season numbers, down to his playoff numbers, but as Psileas has pointed out before, if you use Wilt's regular season numbers against the same centers and teams he would face in his playoff H2H's, he had just as many series in which he elevated his scoring, as he did in which they declined.

In their 49 post-season games Wilt shot 502 from 982 attempts, Russell shot 296 from 710 attempts. Wilt missed 480 shots, while Russell missed 414, which means that Russell missed 86 % of the shots Wilt missed.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

In their 49 post-season games Wilt shot 502 from 982 attempts, Russell shot 296 from 710 attempts. Wilt missed 480 shots, while Russell missed 414, which means that Russell missed 86 % of the shots Wilt missed.


IIRC, didn't Russell shoot 44% for his career?

And I feel that it's numbers could potentially be misleading. Percentage wise,

By that I mean in 65 and 67, wilt shot above 55% against Russell right?

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Just wondering, how good were Paul Neumman, lee shaffer, and Connie dierking? (While with the 76ers during that season).

[julizaver]

IIRC, didn't Russell shoot 44% for his career?

And I feel that it's numbers could potentially be misleading. Percentage wise,

By that I mean in 65 and 67, wilt shot above 55% against Russell right?

Yes, he shot 55.5 % in 65 and 55.6 % in 67.

[eeeeeebro]

if you get 30 rebounds in a game somebody needs to call 3 seconds...

[Manny98]

That's some GOAT shit right here :bowdown:

[Round Mound]

Game 7 stats

Jordan: 34/8/7 46%

Duncan: 25/12/3 48%

Hakeem: 27/14/5 50%

Shaq: 26/11/3 59%

LeBron: 34/9/4 47%

Kobe: 22/8/5 39%

Malone: 28/11/6 52%

Barkley: 25/18/3 53%

KG: 18/11/2 53%

Dirk: 27/14/2 50%

Isiah: 19/4/9 37%

Wade: 22/6/4 41%

What an animal Barkley was! :bowdown: