Bird allowed McHale to shine

[Dr Hawk]

1986-1987 stats: 26.1/9.9/2.6/2.2 on .60 FG%!!!!!!

That would be impossible with Lebron instead of Larry Legend. Imagine Bird + Bosh. Bosh could SHINE thanks to Bird, instead of turning him into some spot up shooter

Imagine McHale's stats with Lebron.... not even 20 points and clearly under 48% to sday the least

[90sgoat]

1986-1987 stats: 26.1/9.9/2.6/2.2 on .60 FG%!!!!!!

That would be impossible with Lebron instead of Larry Legend. Imagine Bird + Bosh. Bosh could SHINE thanks to Bird, instead of turning him into some spot up shooter

Imagine McHale's stats with Lebron.... not even 20 points and clearly under 48% to sday the least

Poor McHale with Lebron, he'd be subject to 'you dawg, gotta bring it dawg, this it dawg'.

It would be like Kevin Love but much worse, Kevin Love such a bitch for signing with Lebron.

[Hey Yo]

1986-1987 stats: 26.1/9.9/2.6/2.2 on .60 FG%!!!!!!

That would be impossible with Lebron instead of Larry Legend. Imagine Bird + Bosh. Bosh could SHINE thanks to Bird, instead of turning him into some spot up shooter

Imagine McHale's stats with Lebron.... not even 20 points and clearly under 48% to sday the least
Nice cherry picked season by you.

That year, McHale started the most games, played the most minutes and took the most FGA in a season than he ever did before or after.

BTW...Kevin did have a nice mid-range/spot up shot. You should have seen him play. He was pretty good.

[Marchesk]

Bird fed:

https://33.media.tumblr.com/38f5978840739785b2258994be6968ca/tumblr_nc0fz2tRMt1svefdfo1_500.gif

[f0und]

anyone would shine with bird because his game is not completely dependent on dominating the ball. imo, bird is the definition of making his teammates better. he moves the ball, makes the right decisions, and makes em quick.

[Dr Hawk]

anyone would shine with bird because his game is not completely dependent on dominating the ball. imo, bird is the definition of making his teammates better. he moves the ball, makes the right decisions, and makes em quick.

This

[FKAri]

Wow. What a backwards era. Back when you had to go to the library to write a research paper. smh

[Kblaze8855]

Relative to the number of available possessions Bosh actually took more shots in 2012 than Mchale in 87. And last year Bosh took 16.9 a game....about the same as Mchales career high 17. And he scored 21 a game.

Bosh took more shots a game last year than he ever did in Toronto. Despite playing less minutes than he did in all but his rookie season there. Most shots....less points than his last 5 years as a Raptor. I suppose Lebron just...broke him forever?

We holding Bron responsible for the play of grown men on other teams?

[Dr Hawk]

Relative to the number of available possessions Bosh actually took more shots in 2012 than Mchale in 87. And last year Bosh took 16.9 a game....about the same as Mchales career high 17. And he scored 21 a game.

Bosh took more shots a game last year than he ever did in Toronto. Despite playing less minutes than he did in all but his rookie season there. Most shots....less points than his last 5 years as a Raptor. I suppose Lebron just...broke him forever?

We holding Bron responsible for the play of grown men on other teams?

Where did Bosh took those shots from though? It is not about quantity, but quality of the shots. Bird would have been able to give Bosh easier shots than Lebron did.

Raptor Bosh took his shots from an average distance of 9.6. With Lebron instead, that average goes as high as 11.8, the last season being the highest with 13.4! ft

[tpols]

Relative to the number of available possessions Bosh actually took more shots in 2012 than Mchale in 87. And last year Bosh took 16.9 a game....about the same as Mchales career high 17. And he scored 21 a game.

Bosh took more shots a game last year than he ever did in Toronto. Despite playing less minutes than he did in all but his rookie season there. Most shots....less points than his last 5 years as a Raptor. I suppose Lebron just...broke him forever?

We holding Bron responsible for the play of grown men on other teams?

Bosh averaged 23/10 on 16 shots a game in 5 all star seasons before joining bron. 3 pt attempts during that period were 2% of his FGAs.

While playing with Bron bosh's 3 pt attempts as porportoon of total shots went like this over 4 years: 1% -> 9% -> 15% -> 32%



And yea.. he's never been the same since. Maybe theres some truth to the whole falling in love with the 3 ball too much as a detriment to your game. Bron style turned him onto it though, pretty clearly. Same thing is happening right now with love (who I think sucks way more than bosh tbh)

[Hey Yo]

Where did Bosh took those shots from though? It is not about quantity, but quality of the shots. Bird would have been able to give Bosh easier shots than Lebron did.

Raptor Bosh took his shots from an average distance of 9.6. With Lebron instead, that average goes as high as 11.8, the last season being the highest with 13.4! ft
Why is Bosh avg more 3PTA this year and last yer per game, than he ever did with James in Miami?

Is LeBron allegedly still keeping Bosh from playing under the basket and making him shoot perimeter shots?

[ArbitraryWater]

Guys like tpols legit think Bron forever cracked Bosh, Bosh is brainwashed into playing no other way than being pretty much a spot up shooter, Bron left, still can't change his ways, Bron did this!

Fun world

[Dr Hawk]

Why is Bosh avg more 3PTA this year and last yer per game, than he ever did with James in Miami?

Is LeBron allegedly still keeping Bosh from playing under the basket and making him shoot perimeter shots?

Bad habits, maybe. Why does Josh Smith shot so many 3's even though he is horrible at it?

What is clear is that Bosh was at his best playing like he did in Toronto and not with this new playstyle of his. That changed while playing with Lebron

[SouBeachTalents]

McHale was just a better player than Bosh

[Straight_Ballin]

anyone would shine with bird because his game is not completely dependent on dominating the ball. imo, he is the definition of making his teammates better. he moves the ball, makes the right decisions, and makes em quick.

Did you just describe Magic Johnson?

[aj1987]

Bosh averaged 23/10 on 16 shots a game in 5 all star seasons before joining bron. 3 pt attempts during that period were 2% of his FGAs.

While playing with Bron bosh's 3 pt attempts as porportoon of total shots went like this over 4 years: 1% -> 9% -> 15% -> 32%



And yea.. he's never been the same since. Maybe theres some truth to the whole falling in love with the 3 ball too much as a detriment to your game. Bron style turned him onto it though, pretty clearly. Same thing is happening right now with love (who I think sucks way more than bosh tbh)
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24571850/heats-chris-bosh-on-playing-in-the-post-i-dont-bang-anymore

"I don't bang anybody anymore," Bosh said. "It's a tired thing for me. It's not my strength and I understand that."


@OP, McHale without Bird in '89, at 31, averaged 23/8 on 55%. Bosh, in his highest scoring season, averaged 24 PPG on 52%. Not to mention the fact that Bosh had his most efficient seasons while playing with LeBron. 48% without LeBron and 52% with LeBron.

Oh, and McHale was a beast in the post, while Bosh...

[Kblaze8855]

Where did Bosh took those shots from though? It is not about quantity, but quality of the shots. Bird would have been able to give Bosh easier shots than Lebron did.

Raptor Bosh took his shots from an average distance of 9.6. With Lebron instead, that average goes as high as 11.8, the last season being the highest with 13.4! ft

And with Lebron gone he took 5 threes a game. Boshs decisions are his own. Lebron doesnt decide where Bosh stands or how aggressivly he runs the break.

Guys who want the ball in the post have been getting it outside the designed offense for 80 years by getting deep position on the break Malone, Barkley, and Mchale style.

Bosh slows up and wants to shoot jumpers.

He took 65 free throws in December...and 65 threes. That isnt Lebron. Thats:


"I don't bang anybody anymore," Bosh said. "It's a tired thing for me. It's not my strength and I understand that. Just playing at an elite level, you play better defenders," Bosh said. "It gets tiring. What they ask us to do, to blitz the screen and roll, every single one, close out and get back. I wasn't this same weight. I was already 20-30 pounds lighter than anybody else. All that stuff just takes my energy."

Bosh jokingly said the decision was easy once "I found out you could get one more point for shooting threes."


But Lebron is the reason hes taking 19 footers and threes?

Not....him being soft and admitting long ago he gets too tired in the post. Its Lebron.

Mchale was 220 pounds outplaying everyone in the post. He was built for it. He didnt back down. He didnt decide he wasnt strong enough. He would take on Hakeem one on one in the post shake him out of his shoes and float a jump hook over Ralph Sampson and come back for more.

He murdered Kevin Willis in the post an entire playoff series for claiming he could cover him one on one. Thats the difference between the two. Kevin Mchale was a tough and physical player who loved the contact and had a competition in him to prove nobody could guard him.

Kevin Mchale was a killer. Chris Bosh wants to settle for jumpers. You cant blame anyone for that.

[Hey Yo]

Bad habits, maybe. Why does Josh Smith shot so many 3's even though he is horrible at it?

What is clear is that Bosh was at his best playing like he did in Toronto and not with this new playstyle of his. That changed while playing with Lebron
Or maybe you don't know what the hell you're talking about?

Take it up with Bosh. He's the one who wanted to change his game.
____________

"Bosh told the media after Saturday's shootaround that he doesn't "bang anymore," because he has to conserve energy and it's not a strength of his. From the Sun-Sentinel:

The only way Heat center Chris Bosh will see himself playing in the post again is by watching old highlight videos.

Bosh made it even clearer Saturday his days of living on the block are gone.

As in R.I.P to his post game.

"I don't bang anybody anymore," Bosh said. "It's a tired thing for me. It's not my strength and I understand that."

"This decline for Bosh is part of the ever-evolving role of today's big man. The Heat value spacing the floor to give LeBron James and Dwyane Wade room to operate, and putting Bosh and sometimes a second big man around the basket takes away that space. Bosh has accepted his role perfectly and focused much more on extending the range on his jumper and playing stellar defense while demanding the ball much less.

His responsibilities in other parts of the game make it an easy choice for him to abandon wanting the ball in the post so much.

It doesn't help Bosh is playing at a heavier weight than when he entered the league in 2003.

"Just playing at an elite level, you play better defenders," Bosh said. "It gets tiring. What they ask us to do, to blitz the screen and roll, every single one, close out and get back. I wasn't this same weight. I was already 20-30 pounds lighter than anybody else. All that stuff just takes my energy."

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24571850/heats-chris-bosh-on-playing-in-the-post-i-dont-bang-anymore

[tpols]

Who said anything about banging ?

Bosh was never really much of a banger even in toronto.. he was a face up triple threat midrange player. And his game was fundmentally changed to provide spacing for two all star slashers. The heat team is still the same way with dragic and Wade now.. they can't shoot so he has to provide spacing.. bosh would do much better in the midrange with the ball handlers having a good shot than how he's been used the past 3-4 years. He certainly wouldn't have to space the floor like that w/ bird

[Dr Hawk]

Ok, I was wrong

But still, I think Bosh would play better with Bird than with Lebron, because I think Bird's playmaking is better than Bron's.

[Kblaze8855]

Bosh averaged 23/10 on 16 shots a game in 5 all star seasons before joining bron. 3 pt attempts during that period were 2% of his FGAs.

While playing with Bron bosh's 3 pt attempts as porportoon of total shots went like this over 4 years: 1% -> 9% -> 15% -> 32%



And yea.. he's never been the same since. Maybe theres some truth to the whole falling in love with the 3 ball too much as a detriment to your game. Bron style turned him onto it though, pretty clearly. Same thing is happening right now with love (who I think sucks way more than bosh tbh)


So when are we giving adults the blame for their own decisions? Chris Bosh is a 30 year old future hall of famer. Lebron just....decided hes soft?


You have some age on you(compared to most of ISH). You remember the following guys...

Malone, Barkley, Otis Thorpe, Buck Williams, Mchale.....

Do you think Lebron makes these dudes spot up outside all game?

Of course not. It wasnt their game and they wouldnt try to change it. Even Barkley who fell in love with the three...you wont make him back down from playing inside.

They were not gonna do it. Bosh was not only willing....but enthusiastic. He WANTED to stop playing inside. Not my opinion. He tells us all the time.


And now we are onto Love...

Love was taking 7 threes a game in Minnesota. You know the only bigmen to ever take more 3s a game than Love his last season in Minnesota? Antione Walker, Ryan Anderson, and Rashard Lewis. This dude is a shooter. By choice.

Lebron played with one of the softest legit good bigmen of his era..a guy who admits he decided to stop playing inside...and then the only true superstar bigman to ever shoot threes at the rate he does.

But hes turning these guys into shooters?

Lebron ball didnt make Bosh soft and it didnt make Love take 7 threes a game in Minnesota.

They are what they are. Love plays with 2 of the best scorers in the world now. Of course his isolation attempts drop.....but hes gonna shoot no matter what.

Thats his decision. His style of play. Ive seen this guy taking like 9-10 threes when he was at his best in Minny. Hes a power forward. Who will take 11 threes now and then.

Thats who he is.

Can we stop acting like Lebron turned shooters into shooters?

They are grown men. They can be responsible for their own actions.

[aj1987]

Who said anything about banging ?

Bosh was never really much of a banger even in toronto.. he was a face up triple threat midrange player. And his game was fundmentally changed to provide spacing for two all star slashers. The heat team is still the same way with dragic and Wade now.. they can't shoot so he has to provide spacing.. bosh would do much better in the midrange with the ball handlers having a good shot than how he's been used the past 3-4 years. He certainly wouldn't have to space the floor like that w/ bird
How exactly did his game suffer then? Dude has been more efficient playing WITH LeBron and his PPG was obviously gonna go down, when playing with two other 25+ PPG players. What about his rebounding? I can understand his offensive rebounding numbers dipping because of him being near the 3pt line more, but what about his defensive rebounding?

[tpols]

How exactly did his game suffer then?

because it could've much been better with a guy like Bird? Who himself can space the court, and attract doubles to just spoonfeed bosh 17 footers all game?


Bosh was at his best with the Heat in 2011 when him and Bron ran the PnR midrange game to death, and were destroying teams with it. That's Bosh's strength. He probably had the best playoff series of his entire career in the 2011 ECF's playing that way.


And over time was marginalized... miller/battier/ray took precendence over him because they were more ideal for Bron's drive and kick game. Then Bosh just started to do what they do.. probably to get more looks.

I remember in 2013 ECF's they put him on the corner baseline just to get Roy out of the middle

[Kblaze8855]

Who said anything about banging ?

Bosh was never really much of a banger even in toronto.. he was a face up triple threat midrange player. And his game was fundmentally changed to provide spacing for two all star slashers. The heat team is still the same way with dragic and Wade now.. they can't shoot so he has to provide spacing.. bosh would do much better in the midrange with the ball handlers having a good shot than how he's been used the past 3-4 years. He certainly wouldn't have to space the floor like that w/ bird


So...we are just going right past the many times hes said himself hes a shooter because he wants to be huh?

You are talking like he wants to attack the basket but someone is making him spot up. They arent. As he said...he found out you get 3 instead of two.

Why is it so hard to take his word on why he doesnt want to go inside?

Coaches cant make a guy be what he isnt. You can try....but guys buy in or they dont. Bosh loves to be the spacer. He loves to spot up.

You tell Kevin Mchale hes staying out of the post and spotting up hes gonna tell you to **** off. And he could shoot. But he isnt gonna abandon his strength.

Bosh becoming what he is proves one of two things....

1. He lacks the strength of will to do what he knows would be best and make the team play him to his strengths.


2. Hes happy to do it.


Neither of which is anyones fault but his.

[aj1987]

because it could've much been better with a guy like Bird? Who himself can space the court, and attract doubles to just spoonfeed bosh 17 footers all game?
Again, with Bird and McHale taking nearly 40 shots a game, Bosh is not going to average 24 PPG.


Bosh was at his best with the Heat in 2011 when him and Bron ran the PnR midrange game to death, and were destroying teams with it. That's Bosh's strength. He probably had the best playoff series of his entire career in the 2011 ECF's playing that way.

And over time was marginalized... miller/battier/ray took precendence over him because they were more ideal for Bron's drive and kick game. Then Bosh just started to do what they do.. probably to get more looks.
So, if Bosh taking over a dozen 17 foot shots a game was that effective, why did the Heat turn away from that? It just wasn't.

Heck even in '12 and '13, when Bosh still wasn't taking like 4-5 3's a game, he wasn't putting up great numbers. IIRC, Bosh played like shit in the G7 of the ECF. Scored under 10 points on terrible shooting. Most of them being open mid-range shots. Even in the Finals, he barely took 3's and still played like shit. In game 7 of the Finals as well, the guy took 4 open shots and missed all of them.


I remember in 2013 ECF's they put him on the corner baseline just to get Roy out of the middle
You might want to watch the series again. Bosh was terrible and basically helped Hibbert turn into Hakeem.

[tpols]

So...we are just going right past the many times hes said himself hes a shooter because he wants to be huh?


As he said...he found out you get 3 instead of two.



that's a cop out, and a nice PC answer.. are you taking that literally? :wtf:


I just think that you don't see the talent in Bosh, the quickness, footwork, touch, IQ, passion.. he should be utilized in a much more sophisticated manner than spotting up for 3's all game.

And then when questioned about it he doesn't throw his team and their strategy under the bus... that's a shocker.


but wait... (http://deadspin.com/dwyane-wade-wants-the-ball-because-hes-more-than-lebro-510909293)



"We've got to do a good job of making sure me and Chris have our opportunities to succeed throughout the game," Wade said. "That's something we're going to have to look at as a team."

"I get a little more rhythm defensively, I get to defend every play," Wade said. "Offensively, I don't get the ball every play. So it comes a little different. You know, the rhythm is a little different."

Translation: The rhythm is a little different because LeBron has the ball too much.

This was in the 2013 playoffs.. when bosh first started to really be used as a 3 pt floor spacer. And the heat were called "the Miami Cavaliers".



Nobody was ever marginalized though. :rolleyes:

[Kblaze8855]

that's a cop out, and a nice PC answer.. are you taking that literally? :wtf:


I just think that you don't see the talent in Bosh, the quickness, footwork, touch, IQ, passion.. he should be utilized in a much more sophisticated manner than spotting up for 3's all game.

And then when questioned about it he doesn't throw his team and their strategy under the bus... that's a shocker.

I see that hes talented. I also see that he loves to shoot outside instead of using it. Its not unusual. Its a trait that has plagued dozens of stars.

I have to assume that the many many coaches, GMs, and assistants hes had can see anything you can see. I suspect Pat Riley knows what Chris Bosh is good at. They arent just idiots. And he probably isnt either.

People get so worked up talking about how _____ should be used like they know the guys game better than people who spend 20 hours a week watching them play and evaluating every second of PT.

You know nothing the Heat dont and nothing Bosh doesnt.

In the end...whatever is happening...he chooses to allow....or he agrees with it.

Bringing up Lebron just seems weak to me. And the Mchale comparison bugs me a bit too. Kevin Mchale was not Chris Bosh. Mchale DEMANDED respect. He and Bird had a sometimes not too friendly rivalry. He made them get him the ball. he called out guys who looked past him in the post. He told the team before games and series...when he was gonna put some shit talker in the torture chamber...and that he wanted the ball every time.

Kevin Mchale would not allow himself to be so marginalized.

Chris Bosh does.

That isnt Lebron or Birds fault.

Thats one being an aggressive and very prideful player and the other being a laid back guy willing to go with the flow.

You couldnt make Bosh be Mchale or Mchale be Bosh.

No need to bring anyone else into it. Bosh is ok chilling outside and im taking his word on why over yours. Mchale was gonna go at you and demand the ball around the basket.

Who they played with isnt the issue to me.

[tpols]

So, if Bosh taking over a dozen 17 foot shots a game was that effective, why did the Heat turn away from that? It just wasn't.
.

It was plenty effective.. the heat romped to the Finals on it. It took the disappearance act of the century for them to lose, and it didn't come from Bosh.

3 pt shooters are more valuable to bron's game than a midrange PF.. once he got some good ones they were more effective, or just as.. because that's a better match to bron's game. That isn't necessarily true of his atg perimeter contemporaries.. especially Bird.

[Kblaze8855]

This was in the 2013 playoffs.. when bosh first started to really be used as a 3 pt floor spacer. And the heat were called "the Miami Cavaliers".



Nobody was ever marginalized though.


So Chris Bosh is Dwayne Wade?

Wade is(was) one of the greatest attackers in basketball history. He led his team to a ring in 06 doing just that. He is going to want touches in his spots to attack because he...unlike Bosh...has the will to lead.

Has nothing to do with Bosh.

Nobody ever heard me say Wade is soft.

[aj1987]

that's a cop out, and a nice PC answer.. are you taking that literally? :wtf:


I just think that you don't see the talent in Bosh, the quickness, footwork, touch, IQ, passion.. he should be utilized in a much more sophisticated manner than spotting up for 3's all game.

And then when questioned about it he doesn't throw his team and their strategy under the bus... that's a shocker.


but wait... (http://deadspin.com/dwyane-wade-wants-the-ball-because-hes-more-than-lebro-510909293)



This was in the 2013 playoffs.. when bosh first started to really be used as a 3 pt floor spacer. And the heat were called "the Miami Cavaliers".



Nobody was ever marginalized though. :rolleyes:
That was after game 6, right? The game in which Bosh took 8 shots and made 1 (1-1 from the 3) and let Hibbert score 24 on 55%. 5/4 in a game 6 from a perennial All-Star. 3-13 in the final game as well.

Here's his shot chart for the last 2 games, BTW.

http://i.imgur.com/HYKqvGI.jpg


It was plenty effective.. the heat romped to the Finals on it. It took the disappearance act of the century for them to lose, and it didn't come from Bosh.

3 pt shooters are more valuable to bron's game than a midrange PF.. once he got some good ones they were more effective, or just as.. because that's a better match to bron's game. That isn't necessarily true of his atg perimeter contemporaries.. especially Bird.
So, if 3pt shooters are more effective, how did they "romp" to the Finals with LeBron ball? Makeup your mind.

[Kblaze8855]

It was plenty effective.. the heat romped to the Finals on it. It took the disappearance act of the century for them to lose, and it didn't come from Bosh.

3 pt shooters are more valuable to bron's game than a midrange PF.. once he got some good ones they were more effective, or just as.. because that's a better match to bron's game. That isn't necessarily true of his atg perimeter contemporaries.. especially Bird.


It appears him being limited was plenty effective. They won what....66-67 games and 27 in a row before winning the first title the season he took a step back? He only started 10 games in the playoffs. They won back to back with him putting up 12/7 and zero in game 7 and 10 in game 6.

Seems him not being heavily involved was fairly effective.

[SouBeachTalents]

That was after game 6, right? The game in which Bosh took 8 shots and made 1 (1-1 from the 3) and let Hibbert score 24 on 55%. 5/4 in a game 6 from a perennial All-Star. 3-13 in the final game as well.

Here's his shot chart for the last 2 games, BTW.

http://i.imgur.com/HYKqvGI.jpg

Bosh had a WOAT level series in the 2013 ECF. Not many future HOF's in their prime had a series of 11/4 on 38%, scoring single digits in 4 straight games while getting destroyed by the likes of Roy ****ing Hibbert

[tpols]

So Chris Bosh is Dwayne Wade?

Wade is(was) one of the greatest attackers in basketball history. He led his team to a ring in 06 doing just that. He is going to want touches in his spots to attack because he...unlike Bosh...has the will to lead.

Has nothing to do with Bosh.

Nobody ever heard me say Wade is soft.

I didn't even care much about the wade part.. the rythym part and mentioning of bosh was the relevant part.


If you don't think being told to go sit in the corner matters to somebody's game I don't know what to tell you. I understand Bosh is a laid back guy who "goes with the flow", mild mannered guy, but what is the root cause here? The strategy that puts him in a 4th option role behind veteran shooters.. he didn't curse everybody out like McHale would've.. great. Still doesn't take away the fact why it initially happened.

[tpols]

It appears him being limited was plenty effective. They won what....66-67 games and 27 in a row before winning the first title the season he took a step back? He only started 10 games in the playoffs. They won back to back with him putting up 12/7 and zero in game 7 and 10 in game 6.

Seems him not being heavily involved was fairly effective.

and if bron goes 2011 mode in either the 2012 or 2013 Finals they get destroyed.. the difference wasn't Bosh vs the shooters, it was bron going from 2/10 to 8-9/10 difference in his performances.


Put 2012 Lebron performance up against Dallas? They'd probably sweep.


so lets be real here...

[feyki]

I don't think like A player created B player stuff . Mchale was great player . He was probably most efficient post up scorer .

[Kblaze8855]

So you look past the words to find what you think he meant when Bosh admits he doesnt want to attack but Wade mentions himself...and someone else...and you dont look deeper and assume he merely mentioned someone else to not look selfish?

Anyway....

The root cause of it happening? Bosh allowing it to happen. You dont think people get hit with a gameplan they dont like and just....refuse to go along with it?

I asked you earlier...

What do you think happens when you present this plan to Karl Malone? guy who by 96 or so....was a shooter. How do you think he takes it? Barkley Mchale? The people who arent built that way...dont get marganilized to begin with. Nobody would even think to attempt it.

You cant blame Lebron James for another adults issues. Chris Bosh....is not assertive. He was placed in a position non assertive people get placed....to play off those who are.

At what point do we hold a man responsible for his situation? Chris Bosh is not a child.

Chris Bosh will let you do whatever you want with him.

Kevin Mchale would not.

So I dont see why we compare them.

Bosh has a role players mentality with a stars first step.

The river flows one way...he goes that way. We are comparing him to guys who swim upstream. Hes damn near a different species.

[SouBeachTalents]

and if bron goes 2011 mode in either the 2012 or 2013 Finals they get destroyed.. the difference wasn't Bosh vs the shooters, it was bron going from 2/10 to 8-9/10 difference in his performances.


Put 2012 Lebron performance up against Dallas? They'd probably sweep.


so lets be real here...

Bro, if LeBron plays marginally better, like averages 20-22 ppg they probably sweep the Mavs

[Kblaze8855]

and if bron goes 2011 mode in either the 2012 or 2013 Finals they get destroyed.. the difference wasn't Bosh vs the shooters, it was bron going from 2/10 to 8-9/10 difference in his performances.


Put 2012 Lebron performance up against Dallas? They'd probably sweep.


so lets be real here...

So...Bosh isnt the difference maker?

I dont think anything I said could be taken to mean I thought he was.

You tell me he was at his best being featured. Mention that he had a great run....talking about how effective it was.

Fact is...they had their BEST runs...without him being featured. They were among the best teams...ever...without his being featured.

They won...back to back rings...without him being heavily involved in the offense.

You mention a failed run with him attacking...I mention two successful runs with him in a lesser role.

Hes popping champagne from the backseat:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1199633/boshshower_medium.gif


But they shouldnt have put him there?

We criticizing a victorious strategy he apparently was happy to play into?

Whatever I think about him as a #1....he did the RIGHT thing changing his game. He isnt a guy to put his head down and lead you anywhere. He deferred to two people who are.

Perfectly rational decision that got him rings.

I dont blame him for that.

[tpols]

Bosh has a role players mentality with a stars first step.
.

all that means is he's superbly talented, but, like you said, malleable, and soft.


What does this mean? It means he can be shaped in any which way, he has the talent to be shaped into a 8/10 player, but just as easily can be a 5/10 player and he wont throw punches over it.


So that was the point all along.. a guy like Bird, Magic, even Kobe would never use a big guy like that.. and Bosh would follow their lead/the teams strategy, and look much better than he did on Miami.


Yes he doesn't have the balls to say no to Lebron's style.. I see that. He wouldn't have to have the balls to say no to those other guys because the strategy would never be entertained from the start, it just wouldn't exist. And no amount of "he's a grown man" interferes with that logic.

[tpols]

So...Bosh isnt the difference maker?

I dont think anything I said could be taken to mean I thought he was.

You tell me he was at his best being featured. Mention that he had a great run....talking about how effective it was.

Fact is...they had their BEST runs...without him being featured. They were among the best teams...ever...without his being featured.

They won...back to back rings...without him being heavily involved in the offense.

You mention a failed run with him attacking...I mention two successful runs with him in a lesser role.

Hes popping champagne from the backseat:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1199633/boshshower_medium.gif


But they shouldnt have put him there?

We criticizing a victorious strategy he apparently was happy to play into?

Whatever I think about him as a #1....he did the RIGHT thing changing his game. He isnt a guy to put his head down and lead you anywhere. He deferred to two people who are.

Perfectly rational decision that got him rings.

I dont blame him for that.

this is all assuming the reason for Bron dropping 10 ppg off his average was because of Bosh... it wasn't. Its almost inexplicable, but that wasn't bosh's fault. Now you're just being dishonest.


If we see Lebron come out in 2011 Finals like he did in 2012, not shook at all, with a more Bosh-centric game then shooters-centric game, they beat the Mavs, plain and simple. So its not like the "Bosh-style" didn't work.. it worked great for 99% of the year, and had almost nothing to do with why they eventually lost.

[Kblaze8855]

this is all assuming the reason for Bron dropping 10 ppg off his average was because of Bosh... it wasn't. Its almost inexplicable, but that wasn't bosh's fault. Now you're just being dishonest.

If id said it perhaps it would be. Im not sure what you are eve ntalking about there. i'll have to reread it all in a moment.

And Bird, Magic, and Kobe would never use a bigman like that? So....coaches dont exist?

We actually saying....Lebron James decided where the power forward stands in the Heats sets?

Pat Riley let that happen?

Why does that coaching staff exist exactly?

Could it be that they intended to win...saw that playing through Lebron made that more likely....did so...and were right?

And if you literally just wont hold an adult responsible for their performance ill just let it go. "Its someone elses fault" isnt an argument im prepared to go too deeply into. The whole star blaming mythos goes too far at times for my liking. All these people are professionals. A man is responsible for his own actions. He decided to be exactly what he is. He flat out told you he did.

You telling me hes lying and Lebron did it seems like an impasse. This is one of those conversations better had in person. Text makes it seems more contentions than I intended. On the bottom line....I hold Chris Bosh responsible for being Chris Bosh. Seems you dont. I'll leave it there.

Gonna go get ready for these playoff games....later.

[IGOTGAME]

Relative to the number of available possessions Bosh actually took more shots in 2012 than Mchale in 87. And last year Bosh took 16.9 a game....about the same as Mchales career high 17. And he scored 21 a game.

Bosh took more shots a game last year than he ever did in Toronto. Despite playing less minutes than he did in all but his rookie season there. Most shots....less points than his last 5 years as a Raptor. I suppose Lebron just...broke him forever?

We holding Bron responsible for the play of grown men on other teams?

How many of these shots were 3s or long jumpers as opposed to when he was in Toronto...

[LAZERUSS]

IMO, Bosh's IMPACT has been minimal in his career. I get a kick out of those that try to compare this "ten time AS" to a player like Horace Grant.

Bosh was drafted by a 24 win team, and hardly improved the team, at all. In fact, within a few of seasons, they went 27-55.

Even at his peak, in his last year in Toronto, he hung a 24-11 season...and the result was a 35-35 record (and 5-7 without him.) Overall, he had one winning season in Toronto, and was a loser...plain-and-simple.

His IMPACT with the Heat has also been minimal. His defense has been way over-rated, and he was abused by the statue of Roy Hibbert, and then an old Duncan. When he couldn't defend Duncan, he was helpless chasing the other Spurs shooters all over the floor, and instead, became a bystander.

And now he even admits that he can't mix it up any more.

And let's get real here...this notion that he created "spacing" for Lebron and Wade. No more than any other 3pt shooter would have. He had practically zero post-up impact, and wasn't get offensive rebounds.

He would have been easily replaceable in all four of his seasons in Miami.

And in '15, the Heat went 19-25 with him.

The reality was, he has Lebron to thank for what is likely an (undeserved) trip to the HOF. Without him, he would be considered the most worthless 20-10 player in NBA history. Now, at least he can say he was a (minimal) 3rd wheel on a mini-dynasty.


Compare that with Grant, who immediately elevated EVERY team he joined, was the interior force on the Bulls from '91 thru '95, was arguably the most efficient PF in the league in those years, and was super clutch.

Grant was such a force, that he destroyed Jordan's Bulls in their '95 ECSF's, and may have done so again in '96, had he been injured in the first half of game one of that series.

He played on winning teams nearly his entire career, and was even a valuable contributor to a Laker title team near the end of his career.

Grant >>>>>> Bosh.

[1987_Lakers]

It would be fun to have a McHale in today's league. I don't think some people realize just how easily he scored when he had position in the post, it was unbelievable. I watched alot of Celtics games during the '86 postseason, and in game 3 vs Chicago there was a period of time where the Celtics went to McHale in the post for like 3-4 consecutive plays and he just scored with ease every single time, Dave Corzine looked clueless, also in game 2 when MJ scored 63, McHale made a shot while he was on the floor.

What also gets overlooked in McHale's game is his defense, he was an elite defender for many years, a few All-Defensive honors and had the ability to guard players from Moses Malone to Dominique Wilkins. Curry is my all-time favorite guard to watch, and McHale is my all-time favorite post player to watch.