After all is said and done, is Kobe...

[SwayDizzle]

the 2nd greatest of all time?

we are talking modern era here.

i can understand the skeptics might place him at the #5 spot, but can we really say that anymore?

[Mr Feeny]

the 2nd greatest of all time?

we are talking modern era here.

i can understand the skeptics might place him at the #5 spot, but can we really say that anymore?

Tbf not top 25

[SwayDizzle]

Tbf not top 25
i know you're one of the skeptics that would place him at #5, but can we really say that anymore?

[zeerghit]

the 2nd greatest of all time?

we are talking modern era here.

i can understand the skeptics might place him at the #5 spot, but can we really say that anymore?
anyone who puts him in top 10 are pure idiots. TOP 5 pure retards.

[SouBeachTalents]

What exactly is the "modern era"

[SwayDizzle]

What exactly is the "modern era"
bird-magic and onwards

[SouBeachTalents]

bird-magic and onwards

How many players from the top 10 does that remove, Wilt, Russell, not even Kareem who was still winning MVP's/Finals MVP's in the '80's. So he'd move up 2, 3 spots at most from where someone would normally rank him

[zeerghit]

bird-magic and onwards
Duncan,Shaq, MJ, Hakeem is for sure better! others debatable

[Mr Feeny]

Duncan,Shaq, MJ, Hakeem is for sure better! others debatable

Lettuce bereal Steve Blake is also in there. Op is one of the skeptics who only has Steve black slightly in the top 10 and not top 5 where he belongs.:rockon: :rockon:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

How many players from the top 10 does that remove, Wilt, Russell, not even Kareem who was still winning MVP's/Finals MVP's in the '80's. So he'd move up 2, 3 spots at most from where someone would normally rank him

He won exactly 1 MVP and 1 FMVP in the 80's, so his body of work would be: 5 rings, 1 MVP, 1 FMVP. Still very good, but he would fall some spots for sure. Top 10 would look something like:

1.) Jordan
2.) Magic
3.) Duncan
4.) Bird
5.) Shaq
6.) Kobe
7.) LeBron
8.) Hakeem
9.) Kareem
10.) Moses

HM's: Dirk, KG, Wade, Isiah, Curry

[zeerghit]

He won exactly 1 MVP and 1 FMVP in the 80's, so his body of work would be: 5 rings, 1 MVP, 1 FMVP. Still very good, but he would fall some spots for sure. Top 10 would look something like:

1.) Jordan
2.) Magic
3.) Duncan
4.) Bird
5.) Shaq
6.) Kobe
7.) LeBron
8.) Hakeem
9.) Kareem
10.) Moses

HM's: Dirk, KG, Wade, Isiah, Curry

kobe is still too high

[TheImmortal]

Definitely has a solid case for Top 5 of All-Time. I have Kareem over him though.. MJ and Kareem are in a tier to themselves.

Tier 1: MJ, Kareem

Tier 2: Wilt, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq

Tier 3: Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Russell, LeBron

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Definitely has a solid case for Top 5 of All-Time. I have Kareem over him though.. MJ and Kareem are in a tier to themselves.

And that tier is firmly beneath WIN Duncan.

:pimp:

[Fudge]

1. Melt
2. Down

[IllegalD]

He's better than LeBron, which is all that matters, and the reason so many Lebron Stanleys on this forum have their panties in a bunch and write so many posts (meltdowns) about Kobe. :lebroncry:

[SugarHill]

skeptics have him outside their top 10. fvck you mean 5 spot

[zeerghit]

He's better than LeBron, which is all that matters, and the reason so many Lebron Stanleys on this forum have their panties in a bunch and write so many posts (meltdowns) about Kobe. :lebroncry:
who said smth about lbj?

[DrainMD]

the 2nd greatest of all time?

we are talking modern era here.

i can understand the skeptics might place him at the #5 spot, but can we really say that anymore?

Explain why you'd put Kobe over Magic, Duncan, Shaq, or Hakeem?

[Straight_Ballin]

Duncan,Shaq, MJ, Hakeem is for sure better! others debatable

Hakeem is not better than Kobe.

[SugarHill]

Hakeem is not better than Kobe.
As a player? Yes he was and clearly. Kobe had a greater career.

[Straight_Ballin]

As a player? Yes he was and clearly. Kobe had a greater career.

They are 2 completely different types of players, but when you rank them on the all time list, Kobe is higher in the top 10.

[Lakers Fan]

Hakeem won't be put above Kobe by the time he retires except for a few individuals on basketball message boards. I remember when people argued that Dream was more accomplished than Shaq.

[SugarHill]

They are 2 completely different types of players, but when you rank them on the all time list, Kobe is higher in the top 10.

How is that relevant? Better never catch you comparing Jordan to anything but shooting guards :oldlol:

And Kobe being higher in top 10 lists is why I said he had a greater career

[pastis]

difficult to say. i have him rank 10-12, but i can understand if others put him in their top 10 def.

[AirBonner]

the 2nd greatest of all time?

we are talking modern era here.

i can understand the skeptics might place him at the #5 spot, but can we really say that anymore?
No. 14,115 missed shots. Almost a 1000 more than the next closest player. 44% career fg shooter. Arguably not even the 3rd best Laker let alone 2nd greatest. :biggums:

[Akrazotile]

1. Melt
2. Down


:roll:

[ShaqTwizzle]

Hakeem won't be put above Kobe by the time he retires except for a few individuals on basketball message boards.

What exactly is Kobe's argument against Hakeem?

Hakeem has better scoring stats Prime for Prime in the playoffs.
Hakeem was 10x better defensively.
Hakeem has equal or greater longevity.

Titles wise they both won 2 Rings as the man and imo Hakeem's 2peat was more impressive when you factor in casts/competition and how good they were individually.

Kobe's only argument is 5 Rings but his first 3 Rings were Pippen level Rings (01 aside).
You don't think a young Hakeem could have 3peated with absolute Peak Jordan the way young Kobe did with absolute Peak Shaq?
He got stuck on garbage teams instead... not exactly his fault.

Sorry but acting like Kobe is clear cut above Hakeem is an absolute joke.

[catch24]

As a player? Yes he was and clearly. Kobe had a greater career.

Ummm, aside from peak play Kobe was and clearly is on the same tier. Hell dude is arguably better. He's a better offensive player when taking into account his playmaking, and while he wasn't the defender Hakeem was, at his best Kobe was a lockdown 1-on-1 defender. Definitely one of the best defensive players in the game when he cared to play on that end.

:oldlol: at "clearly". Kobe gets underrated by try hards.

[feyki]

Modern era began at 1925 . But , After 3pt line Top 10 , there ;

1- Jordan
2-Bird
3-Duncan
4-Magic
5-Hakeem
6-Kobe
7-Shaq
8-Lebron
9-Dirk
10- Karl/Wade/Barkley/Garnett

[SouBeachTalents]

Modern era began at 1925 . But , After 3pt line Top 10 , there ;

1- Jordan
2-Bird
3-Duncan
4-Magic
5-Hakeem
6-Kobe
7-Shaq
8-Lebron
9-Dirk
10- Karl/Wade/Barkley/Garnett

No Isiah? Robinson?

[ShaqTwizzle]

Modern era began at 1925 . But , After 3pt line Top 10 , there ;

1- Jordan
2-Bird
3-Duncan
4-Magic
5-Hakeem
6-Kobe
7-Shaq
8-Lebron
9-Dirk
10- Karl/Wade/Barkley/Garnett

Are you kidding with this list?
Kobe over Shaq?


00-05 Kobe VS 95-99 Shaq
(playoff stats) (5 year samples for both)

Shaq : 27 / 11 / 3.4 on 58%TS --- (38-mpg)
+2.0 -bpg ||| [***28.1 PER***]
---
Kobe : 26 / 5.4 / 5.1 on 52%TS --- (43-mpg)
+1.5 -spg ||| [***21.4 PER***]

That is pre-Peak Kobe vs pre-Peak Shaq.
Not even remotely close.

Then you have early 00's (Peak) Shaq VS late 00's (Peak) Kobe.
Shaq easily has the edge there.

Even in terms of longevity Shaq has 93-06 (14 elite years) and Kobe at best has 00-12 (13 elite years).
Shaq was more consistent year to year and was a much better finals performer also.
Only player besides Jordan & Russell to 3peat as the man.

Kobe is not close to him career wise... ranking him higher is a joke.
That isn't a shot at Kobe either. Shaq is a Top 3 All-Timer with Jordan & Kareem (Top 5 at worst).
The fact that he gets underrated is just a shame... but please... get real.

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe's the 2nd best player of all time and everyone knows it.

[SouBeachTalents]

Are you kidding with this list?
Kobe over Shaq?



That is pre-Peak Kobe vs pre-Peak Shaq.
Not even remotely close.

Then you have early 00's (Peak) Shaq VS late 00's (Peak) Kobe.
Shaq easily has the edge there.

Even in terms of longevity Shaq has 93-06 (14 elite years) and Kobe at best has 00-12 (13 elite years).

Shaq was more consistent year to year and was a much better finals performer also.

Kobe is not close to him career wise... ranking him higher is a joke.

Peak wise I'd agree, Shaq was better than Kobe. Shaq easily had a top 5 peak of all time, and you could argue he had the GOAT one. But career wise, in terms of what they accomplished, it wouldn't be unreasonable to rank Kobe over Shaq

[feyki]

No Isiah? Robinson?

Robinson and Isiah have worse career than Karl,Wade,Barkley,Garnett for me .

10 - Wade
11 - Karl
12 - Barkley
13 - Garnett
14 - Robinson
15 - Ewing
16 - Isiah
17 - Drexler
18 - Stockton
19 - Pierce
20 - Nash

[feyki]

Are you kidding with this list?
Kobe over Shaq?



That is pre-Peak Kobe vs pre-Peak Shaq.
Not even remotely close.

Then you have early 00's (Peak) Shaq VS late 00's (Peak) Kobe.
Shaq easily has the edge there.

Even in terms of longevity Shaq has 93-06 (14 elite years) and Kobe at best has 00-12 (13 elite years).
Shaq was more consistent year to year and was a much better finals performer also.

Kobe is not close to him career wise... ranking him higher is a joke.
That isn't a shot at Kobe either. Shaq is a Top 3 All-Timer with Jordan & Kareem (Top 5 at worst).
The fact that he gets underrated is just a shame... but please... get real.


Actually , they are draw . And Shaq had better prime and peak . But Kobe always had better impacts against great competitions than Shaq . That is important to me . And that's Why i am taking Kobe to Shaq's level .

[ShaqTwizzle]

But career wise, in terms of what they accomplished, it wouldn't be unreasonable to rank Kobe over Shaq

What does that even mean?
Shaq had a better Peak and the gap between their pre-Peak years was even larger (actually MUCH larger) as you saw from the stats posted earlier.
In terms of longevity & consistency, finals performances and almost anything else you can think of Shaq has a big edge.

I don't know why some crazy fools think Shaq was just a GOAT Peak.
His pre-Peak years were better then pretty much anyones elses except for maybe Jordan.
27 / 11 / 3.4-apg on 58%TS with a 28.1 PER ---- (oh and 2+ bpg)

Show me how many guys have a 5 year playoff stretch putting up numbers like that after removing their best 4 years.

:biggums:

If this is because of him having an extra Ring... well thats just dumb.

Let young 90's Shaq spend multiple years with Peak & Prime Jordan and then 2-3 more years during his early 00's Peak with a SG the caliber of 08-10 Peak Gasol (a guard around the level of 02 Kobe) and a 3rd guy like Odom in years where the competition is not that great and how many Rings do you think he'd have?
Easily more then 5 that is obvious enough.

[SouBeachTalents]

What does that even mean?
Shaq had a better Peak and the gap between their pre-Peak years was even large (actually MUCH larger) as you saw from the stats posted earlier.
In terms of longevity & consistency, finals performances and almost anything else you can think of Shaq has a big edge.

I don't know why some absolute fools think Shaq was just a GOAT Peak.
His pre-Peak years were better then pretty much anyone elses except for maybe Jordan.
27 / 11 / 3.4-apg on 58%TS with a 28.1 PER ---- (oh and 2+ bpg)

Show me how many guys have a 5 year playoff stretch putting up numbers like that after removing their best 4 years.

:biggums:

If this is because of him having an extra Ring... well thats just dumb.
Let young Shaq spend multiple years with Peak & Prime Jordan and then 2-3 more years during his Peak with a SG the caliber of Peak Gasol (something like 02 Kobe) and a 3rd guy like Odom in years where the competition is not that great and how many Rings do you think he'd have? More then 5 that is obvious enough.

I'd rank Shaq over Kobe too, I just don't think it's as incomprehensible as you make it out to be. And to be fair on your last point, Shaq played with some great talent too. Penny, Wade, Nash, LeBron etc.

[zeerghit]

Hakeem is not better than Kobe.
who is kobe? without gasol or oneal? give me straight answer, i can help u, lottery.

[34-24 Footwork]

who is kobe? without gasol or oneal? give me straight answer, i can help u, lottery.


Who is Lebron without Wade? Give me a straight answer.

[zeerghit]

Who is Lebron without Wade? Give me a straight answer.
idont give a f*ck about lebron hes same as kobe, just a little bit better, couse at least hes in playoffs

[ShaqTwizzle]

Shaq played with some great talent too. Penny, Wade.

People really overrate that talent though.

Kobe in 00 was a "weak" 2nd option.
He couldn't even perform at an All-Star level in 5/11 pre-Finals wins and then was basically useless in the Finals outside of G4 which he didn't even play well in (20pts on 43%TS during regulation).
Shaq's 00 Ring was one of the most impressive carry jobs ever.

In 02 Kobe averaged 26 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS against the West.
Early 90's Pippen had better playoff runs then 02 Kobe and I would say Gasol's 2010 run was better also.


95 Penny was a "good" 2nd option but hardly an unusually good one in an All-Time sense.
He averaged 19.6 / 7.7 on 58%TS in their playoff run that year.

That same year an old Drexler in his last Prime year averaged 20.5 / 5.0 on 59%TS and had a much higher playoff PER....

[34-24 Footwork]

idont give a f*ck about lebron hes same as kobe, just a little bit better, couse at least hes in playoffs

You just compared Lebron to Kobe at 37.

The fact that you think Kobe is supposed to lead his team to the playoffs with his current roster and age is astounding. You may be the biggest (subconscious) Kobe stan of everyone on the site. I

[pauk]

Sure, i think he might be the 2nd greatest SG of all time.... at least thats what i hope you are talking about, for us basketball fans IQ sake...

[34-24 Footwork]

People really overrate that talent though.

Kobe in 00 was a "weak" 2nd option.
He couldn't even perform at an All-Star level in 5/11 pre-Finals wins and then was basically useless in the Finals outside of G4 which he didn't even play well in (20pts on 43%TS during regulation).
Shaq's 00 Ring was one of the most impressive carry jobs ever.

In 02 Kobe averaged 26 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS against the West.
Early 90's Pippen had better playoff runs then 02 Kobe and I would say Gasol's 2010 run was better also.


95 Penny was a "good" 2nd option but hardly an unusually good one in an All-Time sense.
He averaged 19.6 / 7.7 on 58%TS in their playoff run that year.

That same year an old Drexler in his last Prime year averaged 20.5 / 5.0 on 59%TS and had a much higher playoff PER....


Shaq played with all time greats and didn't start winning rungs until playing with Kobe and Phil Jackson. Speaking of weak second options, Shaq was one of the WORST second options of all time in Cleveland and Phoenix.

If his fat a$$ stayed in shape, he would've had a longer career.

Dude played with Penny, Nash, Lebron and the Celtics big three.

[zeerghit]

You just compared Lebron to Kobe at 37.

The fact that you think Kobe is supposed to lead his team to the playoffs with his current roster and age is astounding. You may be the biggest (subconscious) Kobe stan of everyone on the site. I
READ ME AGAIN. WHERE WAS KOBE WITHOUT GASOL OR ONEAL!?? WHERE?

[AirBonner]

Who is Lebron without Wade? Give me a straight answer.
a title contender? :lol

[34-24 Footwork]

Poor Snaq, joined the big three in Boston to re-heat the rivalry between lakers and celtics for the veterans minumum only to suck @$$. I hate that fat fvck.

[34-24 Footwork]

a title contender? :lol


So another Lebron is on the Karl Malone/Stockton tier. Finally a good post from you.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Shaq played with all time greats and didn't start winning rungs until playing with Kobe and Phil Jackson.


No, bro. No.
He played one year with a 1st year All-Star Penny (a solid but hardly unusually good 2nd option) and he made the Finals.

The following year his starting PF (and 3rd best player) got injured right before the ECF and he faced the 96 Bulls... not gonna blame him for losing that series against a GOAT team given the situation and only a fool would.

The rest of the 90's he was stuck with trash but still managed to make the ECF once more.


Speaking of weak second options, Shaq was one of the WORST second options of all time in Cleveland and Phoenix.


Who cares?
Shaq by 2006 already had 14 solid Prime years under his belt which is more then Kobe had over his entire career (00-12).
:confusedshrug:

Whatever Shaq did after 06 is basically meaningless and bringing it up is silly.
His career value is almost entirely contained from 93-06.


If he stayed in better shape, he would've had a longer career.

Maybe but a 14 year Prime is still incredible and outside of Kareem no one has better longevity then him in the Top 10.
I can live with that.

[zeerghit]

kobe is the most overated player in history. End of story

[AirBonner]

So another Lebron is on the Karl Malone/Stockton tier. Finally a good post from you.
What is wade without LeBron or Shaq?

[zeerghit]

What is wade without LeBron or Shaq?
well... first title? wade won it. so stop here.

[34-24 Footwork]

No, bro. No.
He played one year with a 1st year All-Star Penny (a solid but hardly unusually good 2nd option) and he made the Finals.

The following year his starting PF (and 3rd best player) got injured right before the ECF and he faced the 96 Bulls... not gonna blame him for losing that series against a GOAT team given the situation and only a fool would.

The rest of the 90's he was stuck with trash but still managed to make the ECF once more.



Who cares?
Shaq by 2006 already had 14 solid Prime years under his belt which is more then Kobe had over his entire career (00-12).
:confusedshrug:

Whatever Shaq did after 06 is basically meaningless and bringing it up is silly.
His career value is almost entirely contained from 93-06.

Maybe but a 14 year Prime is still incredible and outside of Kareem no one has better longevity then him in the Top 10.
I can live with that.

Whatever Snaq did from 06 onwards didn't matter. Yet, you're in every lakers thread critiquing a 37 year old kobe.

The rest of your post was hypocritical trash that you'll contradict the the next lakers game thread when talking about Kobe.

Penny Hardaway>>>>> any lakers teammate kobe had outside of Snaq.

[SouBeachTalents]

What is wade without LeBron or Shaq?

What is Jordan without Pippen?
What is Kareem without Oscar/Magic?
What is Magic without Kareem/Worthy?
What is Bird without McHale/Parish
What is Shaq without Kobe/Wade?

You could do this with basically every player in history, it's just an idiotic argument to make

[34-24 Footwork]

What is Jordan without Pippen?
What is Kareem without Oscar/Magic?
What is Magic without Kareem/Worthy?
What is Bird without McHale/Parish
What is Shaq without Kobe/Wade?

You could do this with basically every player in history, it's just an idiotic argument to make


People like you started it due to your hatred for Kobe, now people use it in every discussion. Congrats, c^nt. It's YOUR argument.

[AirBonner]

What is Jordan without Pippen?
What is Kareem without Oscar/Magic?
What is Magic without Kareem/Worthy?
What is Bird without McHale/Parish
What is Shaq without Kobe/Wade?

You could do this with basically every player in history, it's just an idiotic argument to make
34-24footwork started it. Thank you for continuing the point I made. The fact is LeBron is pretty much the only one to drag a team to a finals twice without a second allstar.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Yet, you're in every lakers thread critiquing a 37 year old kobe.


I have actually given Kobe more praise this year then most other posters.
I have come down on him a few times also but far less then many, many other guys here.


Penny Hardaway>>>>> any lakers teammate kobe had outside of the MDE.


Agree to disagree.
2010 Gasol was better and 2008/2009 Gasol was at worst on the same tier.

Anyway chill out.
We both troll at times but I have seen you're a level headed guy so we don't need to argue.

[SouBeachTalents]

People like you started it due to your hatred for Kobe, now people use it in every discussion. Congrats, c^nt. It's YOUR argument.

Lol, wtf are you babbling about? I've never said that, nice try though fakkit

[34-24 Footwork]

I have actually given Kobe more praise this year then most other posters.
I have come down on him a few times also but far less then many, many other guys here.



Agree to disagree.
2010 Gasol was better and 2008/2009 Gasol was at worst on the same tier.

Anyway chill out.
We both troll at times but I have seen you're a level headed guy so we don't need to argue.

:cheers:

[34-24 Footwork]

Lol, wtf are you babbling about? I've never said that, nice try though fakkit

Ever since the decline of the heat, your post have become mildly readable. But don't push it.

[SouBeachTalents]

Ever since the decline of the heat, your post have become mildly readable. But don't push it.

Coming from someone as uneducated and illiterate as you, I'll take that as a compliment

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe's the greatest player since Jordan, nothing really to argue about.

[AirBonner]

Kobe's the greatest player since Jordan, nothing really to argue about.
except for a guy named Duncan

[ISHGoat]

except for a guy named Duncan

And shaq and lebron

[AirBonner]

And shaq and lebron
:cheers:

[Akrazotile]

And shaq and lebron


And Curry

[AirBonner]

And Curry
damn kobe might not even be a top 5 of this generation :roll:

[pauk]

And Curry

Dunno, maybe, but Durant perhaps (his MVP year was insane)

Kobe has picked up nice accolades with the blessing of supporting casts (championships), but him as an individual talent is not the greatest ive seen after Jordan... perhaps as a SG tho he indeed is the greatest talent ive seen after Jordans retirement.... but generally i think definitely Shaq, Lebron were better, Garnett/Duncan aswell, and more arguably Durant/T-Mac/Wade at their hay day, were greater individual talents i think, just my opinion....

[dhsilv]

damn kobe might not even be a top 5 of this generation :roll:

Curry isn't Kobe's generation.

Now if we're talking better player (not career) I think a case can be made (or isn't up for debate) that Duncan, Dirk, and KG were better. I'll leave it open if shaq (peaks prior to kobe's peak) was in Kobe's generation same with Lebron. Both you can argue were better than Kobe.

[Akrazotile]

Dunno, maybe, but Durant perhaps (his MVP year was insane)

Kobe has picked up nice accolades with the blessing of supporting casts (championships), but him as an individual talent is not the greatest ive seen after Jordan... perhaps as a SG tho he indeed is the greatest talent ive seen after Jordans retirement.... but generally i think definitely Shaq, Lebron were better, Garnett/Duncan aswell, and more arguably Durant/T-Mac/Wade at their hay day, were greater individual talents i think, just my opinion....


If I were given a choice for whom I would rather have start to finish for a career, and I don't know which franchise's payroll I'm gonna have to work with, I'm def taking Wade and Ginobili first among SGs post-Jordan. You may not be able to just get a Shaq in free agency, or a Pau in a trade. You might have to build a full team. Those guys will definitely help you win more consistently. Again, this is if I'm trying to win in an unknown market. If I'm in LA and I'm trying to make money as an owner, then sure, I'll take Kobe. But for Basketball Reasons def you gotta go Wade and Ginobili IMO.