Best player, the last 10 years.

[G-Funk]

2005: Kobe
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Kobe
2010: Lebron
2011: Lebron
2012: Lebron
2013: Durant
2014: Curry
2015: Curry

is this correct? Discuss...

[Dr Hawk]

2005: Garnett
2006: Wade
2007: Lebron
2008: Lebron
2009: LEbron
2010: Lebron
2011: Lebron
2012: Lebron
2013: Lebron
2014: Durant
2015: Curry

[Mr. Jabbar]

2005: Kobe
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Kobe
2010: Kobe
2011: Dirk
2012: Durant
2013: Allen
2014: Curry
2015: Curry

[G-Funk]

^^^^ Lmao @ 2013

[Marchesk]

According to the NBA:

Nash
Dirk
Kobe
Lebron
Lebron
Rose
Lebron
Lebron
KD
Curry

[G-Funk]

According to the Media:

Nash
Dirk
Kobe
Lebron
Lebron
Rose
Lebron
Lebron
KD
Curry
Fixed

[Dr Hawk]

According to the NBA:

Nash
Dirk
Kobe
Lebron
Lebron
Rose
Lebron
Lebron
KD
Curry

That's not including the Playoffs though.

anyway, lol at Rose. I can accept the rest

[ISHGoat]

2005: Duncan
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Lebron
2009: Lebron
2010: Lebron
2011: Lebron
2012: Lebron
2013: Durant
2014: Curry
2015: Curry

[Fallen Angel]

2014: Harden

the rest don't matter

[pastis]

2005: Duncan
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Lebron
2009: Lebron
2010: Lebron
2011: Lebron
2012: Lebron
2013: Durant
2014: Curry
2015: Curry

Dirk was better or at least equal to Kobe in 2006 and 2007

for e.g. 2006 Dirk Nowitzki:

Winning 60 Games
led the league in Win Shares,
led the league in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes,
led the league in Offensive Win Shares, Offensive Rating and Player Efficiency Rating
7th in Points Per Game, 17th in Defensive Win Shares, 6th Defensive Rebounds, 14th in Total Rebounds, 16th in Rebounds per game, 7th in Value Over Replacement Player.
Stats: 26.6 PTS, 9.0 TRB, 1.0 BLK, 2.8 AST, 0.7 STL, 48.0 FG%, 40.6 3PT%, 90.1 FT%.

[Marchesk]

That's not including the Playoffs though.

Right, so correcting for that and using ISH logic (which also reduces Bran and increases Kobe):

Wade
Parker
Pierce
Kobe
Kobe
Dirk
Bran
Bran
Kawhi
Iggy

[G-Funk]

2005: Duncan
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Lebron
2009: Lebron
2010: Lebron
2011: Lebron
2012: Lebron
2013: Durant
2014: Curry
2015: Curry

It looks better. Kobe was the best in 08-09

2005: Duncan
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009:Kobe
2010: Lebron
2011: Lebron
2012: Lebron
2013: Durant
2014: Curry
2015: Curry

[kennethgriffin]

2015 - curry
2014 - bran
2013 - bran
2012 - bran
2011 - bran
2010 - kobe
2009 - kobe
2008 - kobe
2007 - kobe
2006 - kobe

[riseagainst]

2005: Kobe
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Kobe
2010: Kobe
2011: Dirk
2012: Durant
2013: Allen
2014: Curry
2015: Curry


:lol

[pastis]

2006: Dirk/Kobe
2007: Dirk/Kobe
2008: CP3
2009: Wade (2009 playoffs Kobe)
2010-2013: Lebron (2011 playoffs Dirk)
2014: KD
2015: Curry

ridiculous to not even mention Dirk in 2006 and 2007 kennethgriffin

[Mr. Jabbar]

i know that ppl not putting kobe from 2003-2010 are trying to be funny, but trust me, its not

[G-Funk]

Dirk was the biggest choke artist in NBA history up until the 2011 Finals, he shook that reputation off.

[WayOfWade]

2006: Dirk/Kobe
2007: Dirk/Kobe
2008: CP3
2009: Wade (2009 playoffs Kobe)
2010-2013: Lebron (2011 playoffs Dirk)
2014: KD
2015: Curry

ridiculous to not even mention Dirk in 2006 and 2007 kennethgriffin
Brilliant post :applause:
The only thing I would change would probably be 2015 for LeBron, that's stopping at the end of the 2015 season though, because Curry was clearly better for the 15'-16' season so far, but that depends on whether you include it or not

[pastis]

Dirk was the biggest choke artist in NBA history up until the 2011 Finals, he shook that reputation off.

:lol :lol oh yea. Whats about Kobe until 2009? finally won with stacked team and goat coach after everyone said he is a chocker and cant win without shaq.
2010? Gasol was arguably the better player or at least equal to Kobe.
And 2011? 4:0

bye

[pastis]

ll

[K Xerxes]

Why do people have Curry as best in 2014? He has zero case. It's either Durant with his historic regular season or LeBron who arguably had the best reg+post season performance overall. Curry's warriors got bounced out of the first round by the Clips.

[K Xerxes]

Kobe 06-08
Lebron 09-15 (v arguable in 11 and 14)

[feyki]

2005 ;

Nash/Duncan
Dirk/Wade
Garnett

2006 ;

Dirk/Wade
Duncan
Nash
Kobe

2007 ;

Duncan
Nash
Kobe
Lebron
Dirk

2008 ;

Kobe
CP3
Garnett
Lebron
Dirk/Duncan

2009 ;

Lebron
Kobe
Wade
Howard
Dirk

2010 ;

Wade/Kobe
Lebron
Howard
Dirk

2011 ;

Dirk/Wade
CP3
Howard/Lebron

2012 ;

Lebron
Durant
Howard
Kobe
Wade/Dirk

2013 ;

Lebron
Durant
CP3
Kobe
Melo


2014 ;

Lebron
Durant
CP3
Aldridge/Griffin/Duncan

2015 ;

Curry
Lebron
Harden
CP3
Davis

[ArbitraryWater]

OP, one of the worst lists I've ever seen.


2005: Kobe
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Kobe
2010: Lebron
2011: Lebron
2012: Lebron
2013: Durant
2014: Curry
2015: Curry

is this correct? Discuss...

Quoting for lolz


2006: Dirk/Kobe
2007: Dirk/Kobe
2008: CP3
2009: Wade (2009 playoffs Kobe)
2010-2013: Lebron (2011 playoffs Dirk)
2014: KD
2015: Curry

ridiculous to not even mention Dirk in 2006 and 2007 kennethgriffin

no... 2009 just no :facepalm

expected better


Kobe 06-08
Lebron 09-15 (v arguable in 11 and 14)

Dirk 06 + 07 :applause:

Curry legit got outplayed by Bron in 5 out of 6 games (consecutively, on the biggest stage), but people will swear he was the best.

Thats a GOAT luxury with the significantly more stacked team :bowdown:

[feyki]

Dirk was the biggest choke artist in NBA history up until the 2011 Finals, he shook that reputation off.


No , biggest choke artist was LeBron before 2012 . Dirk was one of the greatest playoff performer in nba history , before 11 .

[dubnation]

2005: KG
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Bron
2010: Bron
2011: Bron (it's not like he changed players in the Finals... he just played badly. Still the best player)
2012: Bron
2013: Bron
2014: Bron
2015: Curry
2016: Curry

[Wade's Rings]

This is factoring in the Playoffs regardless of historic Regular Seasons.

'05: Duncan/Wade/Nash..Dirk played well IIRC
'06: Wade
'07: Duncan
'08: Kobe
'09: Bron
'10: Kobe
'11: Dirk
'12-'13: Bron
'14: Bron or KD
'15: Bron or Curry

I would probably have Kobe as the best in '07, Wade in '09, and KD in '14 because of their great Regular Seasons even if they didn't play as well in the Playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk was the biggest choke artist in NBA history up until the 2011 Finals, he shook that reputation off.

:wtf:

[DMAVS41]

2005: KG
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Bron
2010: Bron
2011: Bron (it's not like he changed players in the Finals... he just played badly. Still the best player)
2012: Bron
2013: Bron
2014: Bron
2015: Curry
2016: Curry

Not really in my opinion. He had/has deficiencies in his game that caused the melt down. He's incapable of playing off the ball...his shooting is prone to terrible stretches, and he was clearly shook by the pressure of the moments still at that point in his career.

What you saw was a player that really can only play one way....take Lebron off the ball and he's not doing much of note...especially when the pressure shook his entire game.

Put Dirk, the best player in 2011, on a loaded team with Wade...and you'd have none of those issues. So Dirk was better as the man...and would be better in a secondary role as well because he actually impacts the game without dominating the ball.

[Bankaii]

2005: Duncan/KG
2006: Wade/Kobe
2007: Duncan/Dirk/Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Lebron/Wade
2010: Lebron/Kobe
2011: Lebron/Dirk
2012: Lebron
2013: Lebron
2014: Lebron/KD
2015: Lebron/Curry

[Nash]

Including playoffs and dominance:

16(so far) Curry
15 Lebron
14 Lebron
13 Lebron
12 Lebron
11 Lebron
10 Lebron
09 Lebron
08 Kobe
07 Lebron
06 Kobe
05 Nash

[Rocketswin2013]

'05: Duncan
---
'06: Wade
'07: Duncan
'08: Garnett
'09: LeBron
'10 LeBron
'11: Dirk
'12 LeBron
'13: LeBron
'14 :LeBron
'15: Curry

--
'16: TBD

Some years were really close. Others not so much.

[G0ATbe]

:biggums:LOL @ LeBald being mentioned in this thread. Only year you could make a case for him (not a good one) is the lockout year because Durant was too young and everyone else was injured.

2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Kobe
2010: Kobe
2011: Kobe
2012: Kobe
2013: Kobe/Durant
2014: Durant
2015: Curry
2016: Curry

[Fire Colangelo]

Not really in my opinion. He had/has deficiencies in his game that caused the melt down. He's incapable of playing off the ball...his shooting is prone to terrible stretches, and he was clearly shook by the pressure of the moments still at that point in his career.

What you saw was a player that really can only play one way....take Lebron off the ball and he's not doing much of note...especially when the pressure shook his entire game.

Put Dirk, the best player in 2011, on a loaded team with Wade...and you'd have none of those issues. So Dirk was better as the man...and would be better in a secondary role as well because he actually impacts the game without dominating the ball.

Agreed with Lebron, disagree with Dirk being the best in 2011.

I thought Dwight was far away the most impactful player in 2011.... Surprised almost nobody mentioned him.

[G-Funk]

didnt the Dirk lead MAVS choke up against the Heat, they had the lead, Also choked up against Golden State and I'm sure there is other series out there

[Naero]

2005 - Tim Duncan
2006 - Kobe Bryant
2007 - Kobe Bryant
2008 - Kobe Bryant (LeBron had yet to outperform Kobe in a full-playoffs run; that's why I still gave the nod to Kobe for this season, as he had a great playoffs run up until the finals—albeit, faltering against the Celtics, but LeBron played even worse against that same opponent)
2009 - LeBron James/Dwyane Wade (You can lump them in a hat and pick one name indiscriminately, and I'd have no problem, but I'll personally elect to LeBron because of his historic playoffs run)
2010 - LeBron James
2011 - LeBron James
2012 - LeBron James
2013 - LeBron James
2014 - Kevin Durant
2015 - Stephen Curry
2016 - Stephen Curry (finally garnering media- and fanbase-wide recognition for it)

[DMAVS41]

Agreed with Lebron, disagree with Dirk being the best in 2011.

I thought Dwight was far away the most impactful player in 2011.... Surprised almost nobody mentioned him.

I'm down with someone taking Dwight...he was amazing.

[catch24]

Probably something like this:

2006- Kobe/Wade
2007- Kobe
2008- Kobe
2009- Kobe/Lebron/Wade
2010- Kobe/Lebron
2011- Dirk/Howard
2012- Lebron
2013- Lebron
2014- Lebron/Durant
2015- Curry/Lebron
2016- Curry thus far

[DMAVS41]

Probably something like this:

2006- Kobe/Wade
2007- Kobe
2008- Kobe
2009- Kobe/LeBron/Wade
2010- Kobe/LeBron
2011- Dirk/Howard
2012- LeBron
2013- LeBron
2014- LeBron/Durant
2015- Curry/LeBron
2016- Curry thus far

Good list for the most part, but if you are going to list 2 and sometimes 3 guys...

You have to put Dirk on the 06 list and at least Duncan on the 07 list

[G-Funk]

Probably something like this:

2006- Kobe/Wade
2007- Kobe
2008- Kobe
2009- Kobe/Lebron/Wade
2010- Kobe/Lebron
2011- Dirk/Howard
2012- Lebron
2013- Lebron
2014- Lebron/Durant
2015- Curry/Lebron
2016- Curry thus far
Best non bias post thus far, kudos

[G-Funk]

[url]http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/1396-welcome-to-choke

[catch24]

Good list for the most part, but if you are going to list 2 and sometimes 3 guys...

You have to put Dirk on the 06 list and at least Duncan on the 07 list

I've debated this with you in the past, and respectfully diagree. No biggie though. :cheers:


Best non bias post thus far, kudos

Thanks bud

[tmacattack33]

LOL.

2006 is Wade's.

2007 is Duncan's.

2009 is Lebron/Wade.

[G-Funk]

LOL.

2006 is Wade's. 2007 is Duncan's. 2008 is between Kobe, Paul, and Lebron. 2009 is Lebron or Wade's. 2010 is Lebron's.

And Curry does not get 2014...lol...2014 would refer to 2013-2014, a season in which Curry may not have even been top 5.


U rite

[G-Funk]

LOL.

2006 is Wade's.

2007 is Duncan's.

2009 is Lebron/Wade.
Ur wrong

[Angel Face]

'05 - Kevin Garnett
'06 - Kobe Bryant
'07 - Kobe Bryant
'08 - Kobe Bryant
'09 - Kobe Bryant
'10 - Kobe Bryant
'11 - Derrick Rose
'12 - LeBron James
'13 - LeBron James
'14 - Kevin Durant
'15 - Stephen Curry
'16 - Stephen Curry

[tmacattack33]

[QUOTE=Naero]2005 - Tim Duncan
2006 - Kobe Bryant
2007 - Kobe Bryant
2008 - Kobe Bryant (LeBron had yet to outperform Kobe in a full-playoffs run; that's why I still gave the nod to Kobe for this season, as he had a great playoffs run up until the finals

[feyki]

didnt the Dirk lead MAVS choke up against the Heat, they had the lead, Also choked up against Golden State and I'm sure there is other series out there

Don Nelson was Dirk's master , who is adapt him to the NBA . 2007 First Round was special series for Dirk . That was reasonable .

Actually , Dirk's 2006 finals as good as Curry's 2015 Finals . He didn't even choke .

But no reason for Lebron's Spurs or Mavs series . Dirk also put great impacts against great competitions , like 06 Spurs , 09 Nuggets , 06 Suns etc . .

[Mass Debator]

Trying not to be biased. I considered these the best players at the time.

06 - Kobe
07 - Kobe
08 - Kobe
09 - Kobe
10 - Kobe
11 - Wade
12 - Lebron
13 - Lebron
14 - Lebron
15 - Curry (don't mind Lebron)
16 - Curry

[raprap]

05- Duncan
06- Kobe
07- Dirk
08- Kobe
09- LeBron
10- LeBron
11- Dirk
12- LeBron
13- LeBron
14- Durant
15- LeBron
16- Curry/LeBron

[kamil]

2005: Kobe
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Kobe
2010: Kobe
2011: Dirk
2012: Durant
2013: Allen
2014: Curry
2015: Curry

LOL!

[DMAVS41]

I've debated this with you in the past, and respectfully diagree. No biggie though. :cheers:



Thanks bud

I know, but thinking Kobe was the best is one thing...I can get with that. I'm fine with it...even though I disagree.

Thinking he was on another tier than Duncan in 07, for example, that really isn't an "agree to disagree" scenario....given how you've listed other years.

I don't see how one could argue Kobe was on the level of Lebron in 09 and 10...and then argue Duncan wasn't on the Kobe level in 07.

[tmacattack33]

2005: Duncan
2006: Wade/Kobe
2007: Dirk/Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Lebron/Wade
2010: Lebron/Kobe
2011: Lebron/Dirk
2012: Lebron
2013: Lebron
2014: Lebron/KD
2015: Lebron/Curry

Probably the best list here...though Duncan's name can be switched with Dirk in 2007, as I value a good playoff run highly.

And in 2009, Kobe's name for the reason.

So, this would be the list:

2005: Duncan
2006: Wade/Kobe
2007: Duncan/Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Lebron/Wade/Kobe
2010: Lebron/Kobe
2011: Lebron/Dirk
2012: Lebron
2013: Lebron
2014: Lebron/KD
2015: Lebron/Curry

[catch24]

I know, but thinking Kobe was the best is one thing...I can get with that. I'm fine with it...even though I disagree.

Thinking he was on another tier than Duncan in 07, for example, that really isn't an "agree to disagree" scenario....given how you've listed other years.

I don't see how one could argue Kobe was on the level of Lebron in 09 and 10...and then argue Duncan wasn't on the Kobe level in 07.

Hmmm.

Not sure I've ever claimed Kobe was "on another tier" than Duncan. If I have in the past please disregard it because I seriously don't think that.

I just think Kobe was definitely better than Duncan that year, whereas I have trouble differentiating Kobe and LeBron in 2009 and 2010. Big difference.

[DMAVS41]

Hmmm.

Not sure I've ever claimed Kobe was "on another tier" than Duncan. If I have in the past please disregard it because I seriously don't think that.

I just think Kobe was definitely better than Duncan that year, whereas I have trouble differentiating Kobe and LeBron in 2009 and 2010. Big difference.

That was my point...tier or gap...same thing

Saying Kobe was "definitely better" than Duncan in 07 implies a legit gap or tier difference.

And I'm saying, objectively, I just don't see how that argument can be made while also putting Kobe on the Lebron level in 09 and 10.

[Smoke117]

'05 - Kevin Garnett
'06 - Kobe Bryant
'07 - Kobe Bryant
'08 - Kobe Bryant
'09 - Kobe Bryant
'10 - Kobe Bryant
'11 - Derrick Rose
'12 - LeBron James
'13 - LeBron James
'14 - Kevin Durant
'15 - Stephen Curry
'16 - Stephen Curry

And I thought some of these kobe stans lists were bad...Derrick Rose? wtf? You could legitimately argue he wasn't even top 5...

Any list in general with Kobe after 2008 is a joke though. He was never better than Lebron or Wade 09 and beyond. You could even argue earlier, but it's a certainty they were better by then. Technically you can argue even earlier as Kobe doesn't have one definite "best player in the league" season. I suppose the closest would be 07, but then you can argue that is only because Wade got injured.

[catch24]

That was my point...tier or gap...same thing

Saying Kobe was "definitely better" than Duncan in 07 implies a legit gap or tier difference.

And I'm saying, objectively, I just don't see how that argument can be made while also putting Kobe on the Lebron level in 09 and 10.

Another player being definitively better or worse, isn't the same as being an entire tier above or below.

Me saying Kobe was better than Duncan doesnt mean I think they're playing on two different tiers. Thats ridiculous.

I feel that Kobe was often talked about as the best player in 2009 and 2010, playing on a level similar to 2nd three-peat Jordan while also winning championships as the man.

[TomBrady]

Me.

[T_L_P]

05: Garnett
06: Wade
07: Duncan
08: Garnett
09-10: LeBron
11: Dirk
12-14: LeBron
15-16: Curry

[DMAVS41]

Another player being definitively better or worse, isn't the same as being an entire tier above or below.

Me saying Kobe was better than Duncan doesnt mean I think they're playing on two different tiers. Thats ridiculous.

I feel that Kobe was often talked about as the best player in 2009 and 2010, playing on a level similar to 2nd three-peat Jordan while also winning championships as the man.

You aren't really listening...that is just semantics. I said it implies a gap or tier difference when you use that phrase, but that doesn't even matter.

We can use your exact words....

Saying Kobe was "definitely" better than Duncan in 07...is not consistent with saying Kobe and Lebron were about equal in 09 and 10

What was it about Duncan? That he had one of his most efficient years ever? That he was once again anchoring an elite defense that played Parker, Finley, and Brent Barry...big minutes?

All the metrics loved him...led the league in RAPM...led his team to the title as the best player...all the stuff you just said about Kobe in 09/10 applies to Duncan here.

I just don't see how it isn't a double standard...

[plowking]

2005: KG
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Bron
2010: Bron
2011: Bron (it's not like he changed players in the Finals... he just played badly. Still the best player)
2012: Bron
2013: Bron
2014: Bron
2015: Curry
2016: Curry

I'd agree with this if you replace Bron with Durant for 2014.

[DMAVS41]

Anyway...my list:

05: Duncan
06: Wade
07: Duncan
08: Kobe
09: Lebron
10: Lebron
11: Dirk
12: Lebron
13: Lebron
14: Lebron
15: Lebron
16: Curry

[dhsilv]

According to the NBA:

Nash
Dirk
Kobe
Lebron
Lebron
Rose
Lebron
Lebron
KD
Curry

MVP <> best player

[catch24]

You aren't really listening...that is just semantics. I said it implies a gap or tier difference when you use that phrase, but that doesn't even matter.

We can use your exact words....

Setting aside the semantics...


Saying Kobe was "definitely" better than Duncan in 07...is not consistent with saying Kobe and Lebron were about equal in 09 and 10

Why not?

I can see that you gave 2009 and 2010 to LeBron. No problem. Not mentioning Kobe is kind of strange though considering you think I should have Duncan right there with Kobe for 2007. :confusedshrug:

[dhsilv]

Good list for the most part, but if you are going to list 2 and sometimes 3 guys...

You have to put Dirk on the 06 list and at least Duncan on the 07 list

Since we're talking best player and NOT mvp, Chris Paul needs some love in 08 and 09.

KG just was the best player imo in 05, 04 isn't even up for debate imo.

[dhsilv]

05 KG (better player, not a better year as a whole)
06 Wade
07 Duncan (I hate this pick as Wade and Dirk imo were right there)
08 I hate this year as Lebron and Paul were the best two guys but Kobe won the title and was right there. I however have always felt Paul was the best player that year.
09 Lebron and Paul but edge to lebron, paul's team was too bad
10 lebron
11 lebron (all due respect to dirk just can't go there)
12 Lebron
13 Lebron
14 Durant
15 Curry

[Bankaii]

Probably the best list here...though Duncan's name can be switched with Dirk in 2007, as I value a good playoff run highly.

And in 2009, Kobe's name for the reason.

So, this would be the list:

2005: Duncan
2006: Wade/Kobe
2007: Duncan/Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Lebron/Wade/Kobe
2010: Lebron/Kobe
2011: Lebron/Dirk
2012: Lebron
2013: Lebron
2014: Lebron/KD
2015: Lebron/Curry
Yea I always get Duncan's years mixed up for some reason.

Great list though, completely agree.:cheers:

[Wade's Rings]

05 KG (better player, not a better year as a whole)
06 Wade
07 Duncan (I hate this pick as Wade and Dirk imo were right there)
08 I hate this year as Lebron and Paul were the best two guys but Kobe won the title and was right there. I however have always felt Paul was the best player that year.
09 Lebron and Paul but edge to lebron, paul's team was too bad
10 lebron
11 lebron (all due respect to dirk just can't go there)
12 Lebron
13 Lebron
14 Durant
15 Curry

For '07 Wade got hurt and only played 51 Games he shouldn't be up there.

For '09 & '10 how do you not have Wade or Kobe?

For '11 how can it still be Bron after Dirk & Wade's Playoff Runs?

[Relinquish]

i know that ppl not putting kobe from 2003-2010 are trying to be funny, but trust me, its not

It would be more accurate if he was left off people's lists completely.

[Prime_Shaq]

2005 - Shaq
2006 - Kobe
2007 - Dirk
2008 - Kobe
2009 - Wade
2010 - LeBron
2011 - Dirk
2012 - LeBron
2013 - LeBron
2014 - Durant
2015 - Curry

[Bankaii]

2005 - Shaq
2006 - Kobe
2007 - Dirk
2008 - Kobe
2009 - Wade
2010 - LeBron
2011 - Dirk
2012 - LeBron
2013 - LeBron
2014 - Durant
2015 - Curry
How do you not have Lebron for 2009?

Him and Wade were dead even in the RS and Lebron was far greater in the playoffs, having one of the GOAT dominant playoff runs and sweeping the same team that beat Wade all while putting up better all around better numbers.:confusedshrug:

And Dirk for 2007 and 2011 is pretty hypocritical tbh

[Cold soul]

'05 - Shaq
'06 - Kobe Bryant
'07 - Kobe Bryant
'08 - Kobe Bryant
'09 - Kobe Bryant
'10 - Lebron James
'11 - Dirk
'12 - LeBron James
'13 - LeBron James
'14 - Kevin Durant
'15 - Stephen Curry

[DMAVS41]

Setting aside the semantics...



Why not?

I can see that you gave 2009 and 2010 to LeBron. No problem. Not mentioning Kobe is kind of strange though considering you think I should have Duncan right there with Kobe for 2007. :confusedshrug:

I only listed one player each year.

You did not.

If I listed multiple players in 07 and then didn't include CP3 in 08... Then you'd have a point because it wouldn't be consistent. I didn't do that though...

That is what you are missing. It's not that I just disagree... It's that you aren't being consistent.

Why not? Because Duncan has stronger arguments/data for being better than Kobe in 07 than Kobe has in 09/10 over Lebron.

[JohnFreeman]

lol at people putting Kobe for 08 and 09

He wasn't even the best shooting guard in the league let alone best player

[DMAVS41]

Since we're talking best player and NOT mvp, Chris Paul needs some love in 08 and 09.

KG just was the best player imo in 05, 04 isn't even up for debate imo.

Sure Paul does. I only listed one per year though.

KG was the best in 04, but I think Duncan was better in 05... No issue with someone taking KG... very close.

[Pointguard]

2006- Wade
2007- Kobe
2008- Kobe
2009- Lebron
2010- Kobe
2011- Lebron
2012- Lebron
2013- Lebron
2014- Durant
2015- Lebron

[catch24]

I only listed one player each year.

You did not.

I fail to see how I'm being inconsistent when its my list. The fact YOU feel Duncan deserves an argument is entirely your prerogative.

You're basically saying I'm wrong and you're right. :lol

And if that's the case, I'll just repeat what I said earlier: agree to disagree



If I listed multiple players in 07 and then didn't include CP3 in 08... Then you'd have a point because it wouldn't be consistent. I didn't do that though...

That is what you are missing. It's not that I just disagree... It's that you aren't being consistent.

See above.


Why not? Because Duncan has stronger arguments/data for being better than Kobe in 07 than Kobe has in 09/10 over Lebron.

RAPM doesn't have 2007 Kobe in the top 5. Its hard to take this "data" seriously.

2009 and 2010 Kobe being with LeBron is simple for me. Kobe had similar raw stats to Jordan, was great in the postseason, and led his team to a title.

I don't apply the same logic with Duncan because you could argue Manu was the best offensive player on the Spurs. That and in the playoffs Parker was better than Duncan certain series (the finals being one of them). No Finals MVP, arguably being the second best offensive player on the team, and just playing on a loaded team? He was fantastic on defense, but its not enough to put him ahead of Kobe or argue that he has a case, IMO.

[VengefulAngel]

2006- Wade
2007- Kobe
2008- Kobe
2009- Lebron
2010- Lebron
2011- Lebron
2012- Lebron
2013- Lebron
2014- Durant/Lebron
2015- Curry/Harden

[Straight_Ballin]

2005: Kobe
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Kobe
2010: Lebron
2011: Lebron
2012: Lebron
2013: Durant
2014: Curry
2015: Curry

is this correct? Discuss...

Best player interms of impact to the leauge present day? Strangely enough, it's still Jordan.

2006: MJ
2007: MJ
2008: MJ
2009: MJ
2010: MJ
2011: MJ
2012: MJ
2013: MJ
2014: MJ
2015: MJ

The man has been retired for over a decade but it's as if he's never left because no one since has done anything even close. :lol Fans of current NBA line up to buy his shoes on release day year after year and after every critical game, millions of fans critique numerous plays and measure it against how MJ did it or how he would have approached it. Can't even leave my house without seeing someone wearing a pair of Jordans. There's not a single player who you can argue from 2006 - 2015 that currently has as much impact on the game still to this day as MJ. I mean damn we got guys like Kanye making songs about him now and shit. Guys like Curry go 1/1 in the finals and the first thing on anyone's mind is "oh shit, he on pace to catch MJ!!"

GOAT still GOATING! :cheers:

[k0kakw0rld]

2005: Kobe
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Kobe :biggums:
2010: Lebron
2011: Lebron
2012: Lebron
2013: Durant
2014: Curry
2015: Curry

is this correct? Discuss...
:facepalm

[Prime_Shaq]

How do you not have Lebron for 2009?

Him and Wade were dead even in the RS and Lebron was far greater in the playoffs, having one of the GOAT dominant playoff runs and sweeping the same team that beat Wade all while putting up better all around better numbers.:confusedshrug:

And Dirk for 2007 and 2011 is pretty hypocritical tbh
I may be biased but I followed Wade throughout that 2009 season and he was special. Really really special, IMO he had the best season for a guard since MJ and felt he was robbed of a MVP that year. To be honest though, most of these list will be littered with bias anyway so there will never be a definite answer.

[Smoke117]

I may be biased but I followed Wade throughout that 2009 season and he was special. Really really special, IMO he had the best season for a guard since MJ and felt he was robbed of a MVP that year. To be honest though, most of these list will be littered with bias anyway so there will never be a definite answer.

It is for the simple fact that he was elite in all facets of the game. As a scorer, play maker, and defender. Kobe, Tmac, Allen, Iverson, Carter etc...they never put it together like this. For pretty much all of them it was the defense...the fact that Wade was the best defensive guard in the league while leading the league in scoring and dropping 7.5apg is absurd. Opposing guards shot worse vs him THAN ANY OTHER PLAYER that season. Everyone talks about Kobe in 06 dropping all those points...but he was below average defensive player that entire season and averaged 3 less apg than Wade. He was a scorer through and through and not an all around player. Wade was the best offensive and defensive player on his team...was never taking plays off defensively to rest. I don't see how anyone can put any other SG season BUT MJ's above Wade in 09. I don't mind people saying Lebron was better in 09...they both had all time great seasons...but these kobe stans putting Kobe in 09 above Wade in 09 is just laughable.

It did take a toll on him though...they pretty much lost to the Hawks in that first round because he was so gassed from carrying the Heat during hte regular season...it's why his mins were lowered the next season in 2010.

[Wade's Rings]

It is for the simple fact that he was elite in all facets of the game. As a scorer, play maker, and defender. Kobe, Tmac, Allen, Iverson, Carter etc...they never put it together like this. For pretty much all of them it was the defense...the fact that Wade was the best defensive guard in the league while leading the league in scoring and dropping 7.5apg is absurd. Opposing guards shot worse vs him THAN ANY OTHER PLAYER that season. Everyone talks about Kobe in 06 dropping all those points...but he was below average defensive player that entire season and averaged 3 less apg than Wade. He was a scorer through and through and not an all around player. Wade was the best offensive and defensive player...was never taking plays off defensively to rest. I don't see how anyone can put any other SG season BUT MJ's above Wade in 09. I don't kind people saying Lebron was better in 09...they both had all time great seasons...but these kobe stans putting Kobe in 09 above Wade in 09 is just laughable.

It did take a toll on him though...they pretty much lost to the Hawks in that first round because he was so gassed from carrying the Heat during hte regular season...it's why his mins were lowered the next season in 2010.

This guy Heat007 used to always say based on Synergy Sports Iso stats, Wade held his man to 27% shooting in Isolation defense that year, that was the best in the League.

'09 Wade was an absolute monster.
:bowdown: :bowdown:

[dhsilv]

For '07 Wade got hurt and only played 51 Games he shouldn't be up there.

For '09 & '10 how do you not have Wade or Kobe?

For '11 how can it still be Bron after Dirk & Wade's Playoff Runs?

1. I don't play playoffs over regular season unless it's a tie breaker. So if someone is better in the season playoffs are ignored. Again best player, not best season. If we said season I'd adjust.
2. This applies to wade in 07 as again I"m saying best player no season. So the missed games are ignored.
3. Lebron was the best player over the majority of games. To be honest only the finals really would sway the stance, I thought lebron was fine over the playoffs leading up. Nothing there turned my view on him. He was shit in the finals. That's not enough to change best player for me. Now again if we're talking best season...

BTW did you not see me giving KG 05? I'm clearly focused on best player here and yes I'll use playoffs as a tie breaker but only as that.

[dhsilv]

Sure Paul does. I only listed one per year though.

KG was the best in 04, but I think Duncan was better in 05... No issue with someone taking KG... very close.

What is your argument for Duncan have KG in 05? I'd be interested in paul vs kobe but I"m less surprised there. I fully get the Kobe love that year. He was certainly at his apex.

[Smoke117]

This guy Heat007 used to always say based on Synergy Sports Iso stats, Wade held his man to 27% shooting in Isolation defense that year, that was the best in the League.

'09 Wade was an absolute monster.
:bowdown: :bowdown:

It's just too bad the accolades don't represent the facts. Not even the biggest Kobe stan can sit here and tell me Kobe was better defensively than Wade 09-11...yet there he is on the first team all three years and Wade 2nd team and not even on it in 11. Kobe alone has pretty much made the all-defensive team a huge joke. In the 90s the best defensive players were actually represented...I know it was easy to just vote payton, jordan, pippen over and over for the perimeter...but still. It baffles me that a guy who is a career above average defensive player has nine 1st team all defensive nods...the coaches clearly did not give a shit about picking the teams. That has always been my main beef with Kobe...the defense that he didn't play at a high level, but the accolades he received anyway. As I've always said...his best defensive season was 2000 during the first championship...before he decided he wanted all the glory and had to score 30 points. The Lakers were FIRST IN DEFENSE IN 2000...21st in 2001. How the hell does a team fall off that bad? Guys stop giving a shit. That was on Shaq just as much as Kobe, but it's pretty clear Kobe was more interested in scoring than he was in playing defense. Kind of hard to be the next MJ when you don't even consistently defend at a high level. I can't stand that prick Jordan either...but the guy actually played some of the best defense in the league at the guard position for the majority of his career. He EARNED those 1st team all defnesive nods.

[dhsilv]

It's just too bad the accolades don't represent the facts. Not even the biggest Kobe stan can sit here and tell me Kobe was better defensively than Wade 09-11...yet there he is on the first team all three years and Wade 2nd team and not even on it in 11. Kobe alone has pretty much made the all-defensive team a huge joke. In the 90s the best defensive players were actually represented...I know it was easy to just vote payton, jordan, pippen over and over for the perimeter...but still. It baffles me that a guy who is a career above average defensive player has nine 1st team all defensive nods...the coaches clearly did not give a shit about picking the teams.

Guards in general have been a joke on the defensive teams. Jason Kidd was getting awards LONG after he could keep his man in front of him. Defense is a field where no stats can answer a question and even skilled eyes disagree a LOT.

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't give a **** about what is guaranteed to be an endless debate about who was better between LeBron & Kobe in '09 & '10. Did this dude really say Kobe was the best player in '05? An injured Kobe that missed the playoffs? And that Curry was the best player in the league in '14 over LeBron & Durant? Ditto Durant in '13 over LeBron?

Some seasons you'd have multiple candidates for like '05, '07, and '11. The rest of the seasons come down to just 1-2 players

'06: Kobe or Wade
'08: Kobe
'09: LeBron, Kobe, or Wade
'10: LeBron or Kobe
'12: LeBron
'13: LeBron
'14: Durant or LeBron
'15: Curry or LeBron

[Wade's Rings]

1. I don't play playoffs over regular season unless it's a tie breaker. So if someone is better in the season playoffs are ignored. Again best player, not best season. If we said season I'd adjust.
2. This applies to wade in 07 as again I"m saying best player no season. So the missed games are ignored.
3. Lebron was the best player over the majority of games. To be honest only the finals really would sway the stance, I thought lebron was fine over the playoffs leading up. Nothing there turned my view on him. He was shit in the finals. That's not enough to change best player for me. Now again if we're talking best season...

BTW did you not see me giving KG 05? I'm clearly focused on best player here and yes I'll use playoffs as a tie breaker but only as that.

Well of that's how you view then it makes sense. Wade would get the nod in '07 for me. He was putting up 29/5/8/2.1/1.3 shooting 50%. I know you like advanced stats and his PER was 31 something (All-Time Great) and he was leading the League in Win Shares & Win Shares per 48 IIRC.

I'd still go with Wade or Dirk in '11 but seeing where you come from your choice makes sense.

[Prime_Shaq]

It is for the simple fact that he was elite in all facets of the game. As a scorer, play maker, and defender. Kobe, Tmac, Allen, Iverson, Carter etc...they never put it together like this. For pretty much all of them it was the defense...the fact that Wade was the best defensive guard in the league while leading the league in scoring and dropping 7.5apg is absurd. Opposing guards shot worse vs him THAN ANY OTHER PLAYER that season. Everyone talks about Kobe in 06 dropping all those points...but he was below average defensive player that entire season and averaged 3 less apg than Wade. He was a scorer through and through and not an all around player. Wade was the best offensive and defensive player on his team...was never taking plays off defensively to rest. I don't see how anyone can put any other SG season BUT MJ's above Wade in 09. I don't mind people saying Lebron was better in 09...they both had all time great seasons...but these kobe stans putting Kobe in 09 above Wade in 09 is just laughable.

It did take a toll on him though...they pretty much lost to the Hawks in that first round because he was so gassed from carrying the Heat during hte regular season...it's why his mins were lowered the next season in 2010.
And wasn't the 2nd leading scorer on the Heat JO with like 8ppg?

[Wade's Rings]

It's just too bad the accolades don't represent the facts. Not even the biggest Kobe stan can sit here and tell me Kobe was better defensively than Wade 09-11...yet there he is on the first team all three years and Wade 2nd team and not even on it in 11. Kobe alone has pretty much made the all-defensive team a huge joke. In the 90s the best defensive players were actually represented...I know it was easy to just vote payton, jordan, pippen over and over for the perimeter...but still. It baffles me that a guy who is a career above average defensive player has nine 1st team all defensive nods...the coaches clearly did not give a shit about picking the teams. That has always been my main beef with Kobe...the defense that he didn't play at a high level, but the accolades he received anyway. As I've always said...his best defensive season was 2000 during the first championship...before he decided he wanted all the glory and had to score 30 points. The Lakers were FIRST IN DEFENSE IN 2000...21st in 2001. How the hell does a team fall off that bad? Guys stop giving a shit. That was on Shaq just as much as Kobe, but it's pretty clear Kobe was more interested in scoring than he was in playing defense. Kind of hard to be the next MJ when you don't even consistently defend at a high level. I can't stand that prick Jordan either...but the guy actually played some of the best defense in the league at the guard position for the majority of his career. He EARNED those 1st team all defnesive nods.

The accolades that Wade missed out on also are why I feel his Career is underappreciated and the Accolades don't tell the whole story.

IMO he should've been 1st Team in '05 but I don't remember how Elite the other guards on there were. In '09-'12 he should've been 1st Team and 2nd Team in '06. It's also the 1st Team All-NBA Teams, he should've been there in '11 & '12.

He should be sitting here with x4 All-NBA 1st Teams & x5 All-Defense 1st Team.

I just hate how people use it as a measurement of players. People actually have said Wade didn't play Elite Defense because he never made 1st Team All-D or he stopped playing Defense after '10.

[Wade's Rings]

And wasn't the 2nd leading scorer on the Heat JO with like 8ppg?

Beasley with 14 points and in the Playoffs it was O'Neal with 13 points.

[Bankaii]

I may be biased but I followed Wade throughout that 2009 season and he was special. Really really special, IMO he had the best season for a guard since MJ and felt he was robbed of a MVP that year. To be honest though, most of these list will be littered with bias anyway so there will never be a definite answer.
That's a fair answer.

I agree about the best guard season since MJ. Wade was on another level that year. 06 was historic, but Wade's maturity as an overall player had grown so much by 09

Wish he could've finished the Hawks. Would've been great to see the 2 best players in the league face off at their peaks.

[Nash]

Taking playoffs into account, Lebron was the best in 2014 ahead of Durant as well.

Lebron was on something ridiculous like 27ppg on 57% that season + finals trip.

[AintNoSunshine]

2015 - Lebron (Curry needs to prove it by actually getting some recognition in the Finals)
2014 - Lebron (Durant 1a 1b)
2013 - Lebron
2012 - Lebron
2011 - Lebron
2010 - Lebron
2009 - Lebron
2008 - Lebron
2007 - Lebron
2006 - Lebron

[Dr Hawk]

Taking playoffs into account, Lebron was the best in 2014 ahead of Durant as well.

Lebron was on something ridiculous like 27ppg on 57% that season + finals trip.

True. Durant's RS was better, he was incredible, but Lebron's PO run was great

[TonyMontana]

2005-2007: Dirk
2008: debatable
2009-2013: LeBron
2014,2015,2016: debatable

[Prime_Shaq]

Beasley with 14 points and in the Playoffs it was O'Neal with 13 points.
Yeah and if I remember correctly it was on horrendous FG% as well. Just a shame for Wade really.

[Smoke117]

Guards in general have been a joke on the defensive teams. Jason Kidd was getting awards LONG after he could keep his man in front of him. Defense is a field where no stats can answer a question and even skilled eyes disagree a LOT.

Jason Kidd is the greatest team/help defensive pg of all time...so you don't know what the **** you are talking about in regards to him. He was never a Gary Payton one on one and nobody has ever said he was...one on one defense is not what made him elite.

[sdot_thadon]

05: kobe/duncan
06: kobe (hm: dirk)
07: kobe ( hm: dirk)
08: kobe/lebron
09: lebron (hm Wade had a great year too)
10: lebron
11: lebron
12: lebron
13: lebron
14: lebron/ Durant (closest since 08)
15: lebron
16: curry/ lebron (so far?)

[Dr Hawk]

05: kobe/duncan
06: kobe (hm: dirk)
07: kobe ( hm: dirk)
08: kobe/lebron
09: lebron (hm Wade had a great year too)
10: lebron
11: lebron
12: lebron
13: lebron
14: lebron/ Durant (closest since 08)
15: lebron
16: curry/ lebron (so far?)

No Wade for 06'? He was godlike

IMO he was clear cut the best player in 06

[lilblingy]

2005 - KG / Duncan
2006 - Kobe
2007 - Kobe
2008 - Kobe
2009 - Wade / LeBron / Kobe
2010 - LeBron
2011 - Dirk / LeBron / Wade
2012 - LeBron
2013 - LeBron
2014 - Durant
2015 - Curry
2016 - Curry (So far)

[kennethgriffin]

2015 - Lebron (Curry needs to prove it by actually getting some recognition in the Finals)
2014 - Lebron (Durant 1a 1b)
2013 - Lebron
2012 - Lebron
2011 - Lebron
2010 - Lebron
2009 - Lebron
2008 - Lebron
2007 - Lebron
2006 - Lebron



i dunno about you guys but i'm convinced


AintNoSunshine is r*tarded

[kennethgriffin]

2005 - KG / Duncan
2006 - Kobe
2007 - Kobe
2008 - Kobe
2009 - Wade / LeBron / Kobe
2010 - LeBron
2011 - Dirk / LeBron / Wade
2012 - LeBron
2013 - LeBron
2014 - Durant
2015 - Curry
2016 - Curry (So far)


i think kobe deserves a share of 2010


he did dominate the playoffs averaging 29/6/6 while winning finals mvp/the 2010 nba title

[DMAVS41]

I fail to see how I'm being inconsistent when its my list. The fact YOU feel Duncan deserves an argument is entirely your prerogative.

You're basically saying I'm wrong and you're right. :lol

And if that's the case, I'll just repeat what I said earlier: agree to disagree




See above.



RAPM doesn't have 2007 Kobe in the top 5. Its hard to take this "data" seriously.

2009 and 2010 Kobe being with LeBron is simple for me. Kobe had similar raw stats to Jordan, was great in the postseason, and led his team to a title.

I don't apply the same logic with Duncan because you could argue Manu was the best offensive player on the Spurs. That and in the playoffs Parker was better than Duncan certain series (the finals being one of them). No Finals MVP, arguably being the second best offensive player on the team, and just playing on a loaded team? He was fantastic on defense, but its not enough to put him ahead of Kobe or argue that he has a case, IMO.


Actually, no, that isn't what I'm saying.

The post above is more evidence of your inconsistency. You could argue that Pau was better than Kobe in certain series.

And loaded team? What? On what planet are the 07 Spurs a loaded team and the 09 and 10 Lakers are not?

And all those "help" arguments apply to the Lebron vs Kobe stuff in 09/10...more evidence of your inconsistency.

Like...are you serious?

Go look at the roster of the 07 Spurs and come back and tell me you think they should have been an elite defense. Playing 3 poor defenders big minutes...

Duncan was a 20/11/3 high efficiency offensive player that could dominate a game on defense. If you think that player has no case over Kobe Bryant...you simply don't understand the value of certain players in this league.

You just objectively under-rate Duncan as a player...over-rate his help...and clearly under-rate Kobe's help in 09/10.

Also, do you think the objective measures might be a little more accurate than your biased perceptions? Just a question...do you think maybe things that don't have any bias might maybe alert to you that you happen to see the game in a very specific way that might not conform with reality?

And I'm confused...how does Kobe have a case in 09 and 10 when he was worse on both sides of the ball...and played with more help...and played worse against the same competition in the playoffs?

You see my point? If Duncan has no case like you say above...then Kobe doesn't have one either.

Unless of course we all want to just live in fantasy land where anything objective doesn't matter and reality doesn't matter either.

[sdot_thadon]

No Wade for 06'? He was godlike

IMO he was clear cut the best player in 06
When the dust cleared that may have been true, and I couldn't argue against it. Remember though, 06 was a year with a handful of great performances from perimeter guys. I don't think dwade separated himself from the pack until the very end. That playoff run though........:applause:

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

2005: Kobe
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Kobe
2010: Lebron
2011: Lebron
2012: Lebron
2013: Durant
2014: Curry
2015: Curry

is this correct? Discuss...

2005 Duncan
2006 wade
2007 duncan
2008 brain says Paul or Garnett... Gut says Kobe, and this is one of those times I'm just gonna go with Kobe
2009 Lebron by a overwhelming margin
2010 Lebron
2011 dirk
2012 Lebron
2013 Lebron
2014 Lebron
2015 curry

[keantona]

2005: Tim Duncan
2006: Steve Nash
2007: Dirk Nowitzki
2008: Kobe Bryant
2009: LeBron James
2010: LeBron James
2011: LeBron James
2012: LeBron James
2013: LeBron James
2014: LeBron James
2015: Stephen Curry

[catch24]

Actually, no, that isn't what I'm saying.

The post above is more evidence of your inconsistency. You could argue that Pau was better than Kobe in certain series.

How aren't you saying that when its YOUR opinion I am underrating Duncan? You're not one of those my opinion=fact posters right? :lol


And loaded team? What? On what planet are the 07 Spurs a loaded team and the 09 and 10 Lakers are not?

And all those "help" arguments apply to the Lebron vs Kobe stuff in 09/10...more evidence of your inconsistency.

Like...are you serious?

Go look at the roster of the 07 Spurs and come back and tell me you think they should have been an elite defense. Playing 3 poor defenders big minutes...

Kobe and Duncan BOTH had plenty of help, but the Spurs had more. Let me know when Odom outplayed Kobe and Pau for a series like Parker did with Duncan and Manu.

And lets be real. Manu has a much strong case for playing better offensively than Duncan verus what Pau did with Kobe.


Duncan was a 20/11/3 high efficiency offensive player that could dominate a game on defense. If you think that player has no case over Kobe Bryant...you simply don't understand the value of certain players in this league.

Kobe averaged 32/6/5 on 57%TS with great defense and you somehow think Duncan has an argument over him? If you feel that way, where exactly does Manu fair on offense compared to Kobe? Because he wasn't just in the same tier as Duncan offensively, dude flat-out was arguably better on that end.


lso, do you think the objective measures might be a little more accurate than your biased perceptions? Just a question...do you think maybe things that don't have any bias might maybe alert to you that you happen to see the game in a very specific way that might not conform with reality?

No. What you view as "objective" (RAPM), I see as number crunching aka mumbo jumbo. There are too many variables with this stat to take at face value, but one that always came to mind was its inconsistency.

For example- some players on there being awarded for doing more YET how exactly does that prove they're "better"? I see posters like yourself using it to claim Player A > Player B...how?

:confusedshrug:

http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2013/12/1997-98-rapm-non-prior-informed.html?m=1

According to this metric, Mourning/Malone/Stockton were all better and had more impact than Jordan (laughable). MJ did way too much for Chicago to be ranked that low. Guy played with Rodman and Pippen missing damn near HALF the season yet kept the Bulls afloat #1 seed and all.

You can act like this "objective evidence" is your final answer or whatever, but it means nothing to me. What I watch and the raw numbers available with whatever context is required...is all I really need.


And I'm confused...how does Kobe have a case in 09 and 10 when he was worse on both sides of the ball...and played with more help...and played worse against the same competition in the playoffs?

Unless of course we all want to just live in fantasy land where anything objective doesn't matter and reality doesn't matter either.

Last line is funny, I've been thinking the SAME thing reading your posts.

If you believe averaging numbers that are akin to 1996-98 Jordan, having clutch moments, HUGE series (vs Phoenix/Utah/Denver), capped off with 2 Finals MVPs is playing THAT much worse than 2009 and 2010 LeBron, more power to you.

You and I definitely don't see the game equally.

[tpols]

No Wade for 06'? He was godlike

IMO he was clear cut the best player in 06


wade's own teammate said kobe was better that year..



there should perhaps be differentiation between who had the best year, and who was just a better player/had more ability. For instance, before the 2011 WCF's and Finals, nobody had Dirk as "best player".. now they do. Lebron was considered better for most of the year, even wade has a case..


but it is interesting, since Dirk's ability to raise his game against top competition and in tight moments was a big reason he won, and LeBron and wade's lack of that was a big reason they lost, does that mean Dirk really was better.. ? Because the writing was on the wall all year.. I watched Dirk nail a GW that year at the prudential center in the rs, while bron and wade missed every GW they took that year. People just ignored it I guess.

[DMAVS41]

How aren't you saying that when its YOUR opinion I am underrating Duncan? You're not one of those my opinion=fact posters right? :lol



Kobe and Duncan BOTH had plenty of help, but the Spurs had more. Let me know when Odom outplayed Kobe and Pau for a series like Parker did with Duncan and Manu.

And lets be real. Manu has a much strong case for playing better offensively than Duncan verus what Pau did with Kobe.



Kobe averaged 32/6/5 on 57%TS with great defense and you somehow think Duncan has an argument over him? If you feel that way, where exactly does Manu fair on offense compared to Kobe? Because he wasn't just in the same tier as Duncan offensively, dude flat-out was arguably better on that end.



No. What you view as "objective" (RAPM), I see as number crunching aka mumbo jumbo. There are too many variables with this stat to take at face value, but one that always came to mind was its inconsistency.

For example- some players on there being awarded for doing more YET how exactly does that prove they're "better"? I see posters like yourself using it to claim Player A > Player B...how?

:confusedshrug:

http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2013/12/1997-98-rapm-non-prior-informed.html?m=1

According to this metric, Mourning/Malone/Stockton were all better and had more impact than Jordan (laughable). MJ did way too much for Chicago to be ranked that low. Guy played with Rodman and Pippen missing damn near HALF the season yet kept the Bulls afloat #1 seed and all.

You can act like this "objective evidence" is your final answer or whatever, but it means nothing to me. What I watch and the raw numbers available with whatever context is required...is all I really need.



Last line is funny, I've been thinking the SAME thing reading your posts.

If you believe averaging numbers that are akin to 1996-98 Jordan, having clutch moments, HUGE series (vs Phoenix/Utah/Denver), capped off with 2 Finals MVPs is playing THAT much worse than 2009 and 2010 LeBron, more power to you.

You and I definitely don't see the game equally.


You again are creating a straw man.

I have no issue with someone listing Kobe/Lebron in 09/10 together. I think Lebron was better, but don't have any issue listing Kobe.

My issue with you is listing Kobe next to Lebron in those years, but not Duncan next to Kobe in 07.

Did you just say Kobe was playing great defense in 07? Like really? I can't imagine you actually believe this. What evidence do you have to support Kobe being a great defender?

Lets try to go small...you also fail to realize Duncan's offensive game in 07...and clearly don't grasp what RAPM is...nor do you comprehend some of the data you are referencing isn't real RAPM...not sure exactly what you are referencing though. We can leave that alone, but ignorance is not an excuse to dismiss something.

RAPM is not supposed to tell you, alone, who the best player was/is. It can't do that...

Your problem is that you think when I post that Duncan led the league...you think I'm immediately saying he was for sure the best, but I'm not doing that at all. As I've not only said that, but also have no issue with someone taking Kobe.

However, when someone leads the league in RAPM playing the kind of role Duncan did on both sides of the ball...on an elite team...as the clear cut best player on said team given the role...it's evidence on my side of this debate.

It's not definitive, but just more evidence on my side.

You seem to think on ball scoring is all there is to basketball...and that somehow a guard is providing "great defensive impact" while he barely improves his team on that end while playing...and leads his team to having a very poor defense.

Like, did you watch the NBA in 2007? I ask because I don't think you comprehend what a bold claim it is to say that Duncan had absolutely no claim to be as good as Kobe.

But let's ignore all that...and get specific. So....tell me why Kobe was a "great defender" in 07.

Last, remember you have by far the tougher burden of proof here. My argument is that Duncan belongs next to Kobe...and really Dirk...in the 07 discussion.

You argument is that Duncan does not belong.

You have the much tougher case to make...and I'm not seeing you make the case. Certainly you aren't making it if it relies on Kobe providing a "great defensive impact"...

[AirBonner]

2005: Kobe
2006: Wade
2007: Duncan
2008: Garnett
2009: Gasol
2010: Gasol
2011: Dirk
2012: Durant
2013: Allen
2014: Curry
2015: Curry
fixed :applause:

[feyki]

Kobe's 06 and 07 and Lebron's 10 and 11 most overrated seasons in this thread .

[catch24]

My issue with you is listing Kobe next to Lebron in those years, but not Duncan next to Kobe in 07.

So you value Duncan's play more than I do? There is nothing "factual" about putting Duncan next to Kobe, especially if the reason has to do with another year all-together.


Did you just say Kobe was playing great defense in 07? Like really? I can't imagine you actually believe this. What evidence do you have to support Kobe being a great defender?

Lets try to go small...you also fail to realize Duncan's offensive game in 07...and clearly don't grasp what RAPM is...nor do you comprehend some of the data you are referencing isn't real RAPM...not sure exactly what you are referencing though. We can leave that alone, but ignorance is not an excuse to dismiss something.

Yes. I can roll with somebody claiming Kobe took nights off on defense in 2006, but not in 2007. He was very good on that end (backed with an all-defensive team). RAPM pegs him as a career net negative on defense, so obviously you wouldn't think so regardless of what I post. :lol

Also you never addressed my question. If you think Duncan was so great on offense, where does Manu, an arguably better offensive player, rank on that end?

That season Kobe played a better all-around game than Duncan. He didn't need Manu AND Parker, two of the best players in the game, providing elite offense.

In 2009/2010, Kobe had Pau and after that? Odom wasn't elite on offense. Neither was Fisher or Artest. Bynum barely played.

Yeah...


RAPM is not supposed to tell you, alone, who the best player was/is. It can't do that...

Your problem is that you think when I post that Duncan led the league...you think I'm immediately saying he was for sure the best, but I'm not doing that at all. As I've not only said that, but also have no issue with someone taking Kobe.

You want me to place Duncan right beside Kobe who I feel was the best, and if I don't, claim nothing I post is objective because it doesn't include RAPM.

What gives? :confusedshrug:


You seem to think on ball scoring is all there is to basketball...and that somehow a guard is providing "great defensive impact" while he barely improves his team on that end while playing...and leads his team to having a very poor defense.

Kobe played with crap in 2007, and you legitimately expected him to have a deep postseason run? In the western conference of all places?

He wasn't fortunate enough to play with 2 other HOFers in 2007, in their primes, you know, like Manu and Parker?


Like, did you watch the NBA in 2007? I ask because I don't think you comprehend what a bold claim it is to say that Duncan had absolutely no claim to be as good as Kobe.

While its not a "bold claim", it is one I brutally disagree with.

And yes I watched in 2007. I've seen Duncan and Kobe's entire careers. :lol

Maybe you can answer some of the questions I've asked? Tell us how Malone, Stockton and Mourning had more impact than Jordan in 1998. Thanks in advance.

[HOoopCityJones]

So you value Duncan's play more than I do? There is nothing "factual" about putting Duncan next to Kobe, especially if the reason has to do with another year all-together.



Yes. I can roll with somebody claiming Kobe took nights off on defense in 2006, but not in 2007. He was very good on that end (backed with an all-defensive team). RAPM pegs him as a career net negative on defense, so obviously you wouldn't think so regardless of what I post. :lol

Also you never addressed my question. If you think Duncan was so great on offense, where does Manu, an arguably better offensive player, rank on that end?

That season Kobe played a better all-around game than Duncan. He didn't need Manu AND Parker, two of the best players in the game, providing elite offense.

In 2009/2010, Kobe had Pau and after that? Odom wasn't elite on offense. Neither was Fisher or Artest. Bynum barely played.

Yeah...



You want me to place Duncan right beside Kobe who I feel was the best, and if I don't, claim nothing I post is objective because it doesn't include RAPM.

What gives? :confusedshrug:



Kobe played with crap in 2007, and you legitimately expected him to have a deep postseason run? In the western conference of all places?

He wasn't fortunate enough to play with 2 other HOFers in 2007, in their primes, you know, like Manu and Parker?



While its not a "bold claim", it is one I brutally disagree with.

And yes I watched in 2007. I've seen Duncan and Kobe's entire careers. :lol

Maybe you can answer some of the questions I've asked? Tell us how Malone, Stockton and Mourning had more impact than Jordan in 1998. Thanks in advance.


Don't even bother bro, he'll just keep moving the goal posts to change his argument. First you're talking about raw stats from season to season, then series to series before you know it you're discussing why Dirk has always had worse Teams than Kobe...yet in the same breath says 05-07 Lakers rosters shouldn't matter to Kobe's failure or success.

Dude's a hack and a Dirk stan who's bitter that Bean has always been better.

[DMAVS41]

So you value Duncan's play more than I do? There is nothing "factual" about putting Duncan next to Kobe, especially if the reason has to do with another year all-together.



Yes. I can roll with somebody claiming Kobe took nights off on defense in 2006, but not in 2007. He was very good on that end (backed with an all-defensive team). RAPM pegs him as a career net negative on defense, so obviously you wouldn't think so regardless of what I post. :lol

Also you never addressed my question. If you think Duncan was so great on offense, where does Manu, an arguably better offensive player, rank on that end?

That season Kobe played a better all-around game than Duncan. He didn't need Manu AND Parker, two of the best players in the game, providing elite offense.

In 2009/2010, Kobe had Pau and after that? Odom wasn't elite on offense. Neither was Fisher or Artest. Bynum barely played.

Yeah...



You want me to place Duncan right beside Kobe who I feel was the best, and if I don't, claim nothing I post is objective because it doesn't include RAPM.

What gives? :confusedshrug:



Kobe played with crap in 2007, and you legitimately expected him to have a deep postseason run? In the western conference of all places?

He wasn't fortunate enough to play with 2 other HOFers in 2007, in their primes, you know, like Manu and Parker?



While its not a "bold claim", it is one I brutally disagree with.

And yes I watched in 2007. I've seen Duncan and Kobe's entire careers. :lol

Maybe you can answer some of the questions I've asked? Tell us how Malone, Stockton and Mourning had more impact than Jordan in 1998. Thanks in advance.


Manu was a better offensive player than Duncan in 2007.

Kobe was not a good defensive player in 2007. He was average. His team was terrible defensively both with him and without him. There was nothing "great" about his impact defensively.

I'm not only listing RAPM...I could go through other stuff as well. And I didn't list RAPM to show Duncan was definitely better...I listed it simply as one metric that doesn't align with your bold claim...that Duncan has no case.

And you still don't grasp what RAPM is or does...bringing up Malone/Stockton/Jordan...LOL...ignorance man...straight up. It's not a knock on Kobe...it's just that Duncan leading the league in RAPM given his role on his team is not something that should just be ignored like you do.

I'm by no means claiming that seals the deal, but ignoring it all together is silly...just like you ignore most of the other metrics as well.

Don't really care to as I know you will dismiss anything truly objective.

But I'd imagine they were similar in PER, Kobe was better on offense, Duncan was better on defense...Duncan probably beats him on things like ws/48, BPM, and VORP...but honestly I don't care much about that stuff....but it all speaks to them being very similar in terms of impact. Most of those things will favor Duncan though.

Which is why it's a tough case for you to make. Like, you say Kobe was a better all around player...but how?

Duncan's offensive rating and defensive rating...together, will be far better than Kobe's.

Duncan was an elite defender...Kobe was average at best. Kobe was an elite offensive player, but Duncan wasn't average at best on offense...he was definitely well above average. Duncan could dominate the boards as well...he's a far better teammate and team player...but we can ignore that because I doubt you factor in any type of team play if you rank Kobe so highly.

But how was Kobe better all around? Duncan could dominate games without scoring. He could dominate games without touching the ball. When he wanted to he could give you very good offense on a rock solid scoring efficiency.

More straw men? I never said Kobe should have had a deep playoff run. What?

Nothing you say is objective unless you can back it up with a real argument or evidence.

For example, just asserting that Kobe was a great defender doesn't make him one. And certainly isn't backed up by a subjective all defensive award that literally means nothing.

You'd have to provide real evidence that isn't just subjectivity without arguments...

So please, explain how Kobe was a great defender, his team sucked on defense. He barely improved their defense when he played. All the metrics rate him as an average to below average defender.

When I watched him I thought all he cared about was offense and he didn't put much effort into playing defense consistently. Then I go to every metric we have and they all confirm my thoughts. So give me a reason to change my thoughts...give me an argument or evidence that shows Kobe as great defender.

[DMAVS41]

Don't even bother bro, he'll just keep moving the goal posts to change his argument. First you're talking about raw stats from season to season, then series to series before you know it you're discussing why Dirk has always had worse Teams than Kobe...yet in the same breath says 05-07 Lakers rosters shouldn't matter to Kobe's failure or success.

Dude's a hack and a Dirk stan who's bitter that Bean has always been better.

It's sad when you just described his and your tactic.

LOL at shifting the goal posts...that's what you Kobe fans do...it's all you can do. And you still get destroyed.

You guys are so ignorant that you don't understand what a bold claim it is to say Duncan has no case over Kobe in 07 as a player. It's just hilarious...

And worse...the same people turn around an argue Kobe vs Lebron in 09 and 10....after they used the "better all around" argument in favor of Kobe in 07 over Duncan...then turn around and don't use the exact same argument in favor of Lebron in 09/10.

It's old hat at this point, but some days I have the patience to actually try to explain to you clowns why you are so inconsistent.

[tpols]

curious about this dmavs,



Duncan was an elite defender...Kobe was average at best. Kobe was an elite offensive player, but Duncan wasn't average at best on offense...he was definitely well above average.

Whenever a debate between Dirk and KG came up, it was always, you cant break it down like that offense vs defense etc. it doesn't work right, something to that effect, but it appears that's exactly what you're doing here. Just wondering how that logic could work here, but not there, since if it did Garnett would be a hands down decision.

[DMAVS41]

curious about this dmavs,



Whenever a debate between Dirk and KG came up, it was always, you cant break it down like that offense vs defense etc. it doesn't work right, something to that effect, but it appears that's exactly what you're doing here. Just wondering how that logic could work here, but not there, since if it did Garnett would be a hands down decision.

False analogy...I'm not saying being better all around makes one a better player.

I'm directly addressing the claim that Kobe was the better all around player...simple.

If you read the post I responded to...you'd see a claim that Kobe was a better all around player. I was just addressing that...it's actually a false claim.

Now, how much that matters in terms of determining the best player here...you know how I feel. Although Duncan's all time great defense really is of big impact here.

But, as I have said before and will continue to say, being better all around does not make one a better overall player.

[tpols]

False analogy...I'm not saying being better all around makes one a better player.

I'm directly addressing the claim that Kobe was the better all around player...simple.

But, as I have said before and will continue to say, being better all around does not make one a better overall player.

word, I see

[DMAVS41]

word, I see

And just so you know, I'm not claiming that Duncan was definitively better than Kobe in 07.

I'd take Duncan, but it's very close between those two and Dirk for me...I just have to give the benefit of the doubt to Duncan/Kobe because they didn't have a terrible playoff series that hurt their team like Dirk did.

My claim is simple...

If you are going to list 2 and sometimes 3 guys per year as the best player other years...you can't leave off a guy like Duncan in 07...and then turn around and put a guy like Kobe in the list with Lebron in 09/10.

Because all the same arguments used for Kobe here...could be used for Lebron then...especially the "all around" argument that just got used.

Which is why I think it's inconsistent and doesn't pass the logic test.

[Showtime2001]

lol at people putting Kobe for 08 and 09

He wasn't even the best shooting guard in the league let alone best player
Kobe > Wade

Get over it.

[feyki]

On 100 poss against Suns in 2007 playoffs ;

Kobe - 37.3 pts , 6 rb , 5 ast , 1.4 stl , 0.5 blk , 5 to , %57 TS , 110 Ortg , 115 Drtg


Duncan - 34.9 pts , 17.8 rb , 1.6 ast , 0.3 stl , 5.5 blk , 3 To , %59 TS , 117 Ortg , 103 Drtg .

[catch24]

Manu was a better offensive player than Duncan in 2007.

Kobe was not a good defensive player in 2007. He was average. His team was terrible defensively both with him and without him. There was nothing "great" about his impact defensively.

I'm not only listing RAPM...I could go through other stuff as well. And I didn't list RAPM to show Duncan was definitely better...I listed it simply as one metric that doesn't align with your bold claim...that Duncan has no case.

And you still don't grasp what RAPM is or does...bringing up Malone/Stockton/Jordan...LOL...ignorance man...straight up. It's not a knock on Kobe...it's just that Duncan leading the league in RAPM given his role on his team is not something that should just be ignored like you do.

I'm by no means claiming that seals the deal, but ignoring it all together is silly...just like you ignore most of the other metrics as well.

Don't really care to as I know you will dismiss anything truly objective.

But I'd imagine they were similar in PER, Kobe was better on offense, Duncan was better on defense...Duncan probably beats him on things like ws/48, BPM, and VORP...but honestly I don't care much about that stuff....but it all speaks to them being very similar in terms of impact. Most of those things will favor Duncan though.

Which is why it's a tough case for you to make. Like, you say Kobe was a better all around player...but how?

Duncan's offensive rating and defensive rating...together, will be far better than Kobe's.

Duncan was an elite defender...Kobe was average at best. Kobe was an elite offensive player, but Duncan wasn't average at best on offense...he was definitely well above average. Duncan could dominate the boards as well...he's a far better teammate and team player...but we can ignore that because I doubt you factor in any type of team play if you rank Kobe so highly.

But how was Kobe better all around? Duncan could dominate games without scoring. He could dominate games without touching the ball. When he wanted to he could give you very good offense on a rock solid scoring efficiency.

More straw men? I never said Kobe should have had a deep playoff run. What?

Nothing you say is objective unless you can back it up with a real argument or evidence.

For example, just asserting that Kobe was a great defender doesn't make him one. And certainly isn't backed up by a subjective all defensive award that literally means nothing.

You'd have to provide real evidence that isn't just subjectivity without arguments...

So please, explain how Kobe was a great defender, his team sucked on defense. He barely improved their defense when he played. All the metrics rate him as an average to below average defender.

When I watched him I thought all he cared about was offense and he didn't put much effort into playing defense consistently. Then I go to every metric we have and they all confirm my thoughts. So give me a reason to change my thoughts...give me an argument or evidence that shows Kobe as great defender.

Alright so if Manu was better on offense than Duncan, how wide is the gap between he and Kobe?

Your answer will give me a better understanding of what it is you value.

Totally disagree with Kobe being "average" on defense. I felt he was a lockdown 1-on-1 defender and that stuff really can't be quantified with metrics save for maybe isolation stats. If they're available go ahead and post them.

Its hilarious that You claim I am not objective though. What does that make the coaches who tallied him in? Clueless idiots?

As for the "advanced stats", you only listed RAPM so that is the debate here. You can call me "ignorant" all you want, but you've still failed to explain how the phuck all those players were higher impact players than '98 Jordan. :oldlol:

I'm a dude who watches games and goes by stats last, so if some bullshit metric tells me Kobe is a career net negative on defense; Jordan was a less effective impact player than Malone/Stockton/Mourning; Dirk has a better defensive "plus minus" than Wade, etc. I'm gonna disagree with it. And there's nothing you can say or do that will change my mind. Sorry. Call me oblivious to the calculator world, but there's no coming back from that.

The reason I listed Kobe over Duncan is pretty simple:
- far better offensive player (tier or two above offensively when you include the playmaking abilities. lol @ 20ppg on ~58%TS being anywhere close to 32ppg on ~58TS)
- great on defense, not Duncan level but its a closer disparity than their offense
- held his own without needing charity from 2 other HOFers, that were also arguably better on offense

These are facts to me. You won't deem them credible because you rather use your set of parameters, which totally underrate Kobe and the season he had. The same garbage that undermines Jordan's offense and Wade's defense.

Anyway this is just a never ending cycle of disagreements. The longer I debate this the more I'll want to insult you, so I'm gonna stop it here.

I'll read your response to my first question, and move on.

later

[SexSymbol]

00-Shaq
01-Shaq
02-Shaq
03-Duncan
04-KG
05-Duncan
06-Kobe
07-Kobe
08-Kobe
09-Kobe
10-Kobe
11-Dirk
12-LeBron
13-LeBron
14-Durant
15-Curry
16-Curry

[DMAVS41]

Alright so if Manu was better on offense than Duncan, how wide is the gap between he and Kobe?

Your answer will give me a better understanding of what it is you value.

Totally disagree with Kobe being "average" on defense. I felt he was a lockdown 1-on-1 defender and that stuff really can't be quantified with metrics save for maybe isolation stats. If they're available go ahead and post them.

Its hilarious that You claim I am not objective though. What does that make the coaches who tallied him in? Clueless idiots?

As for the "advanced stats", you only listed RAPM so that is the debate here. You can call me "ignorant" all you want, but you've still failed to explain how the phuck all those players were higher impact players than '98 Jordan. :oldlol:

I'm a dude who watches games and goes by stats last, so if some bullshit metric tells me Kobe is a career net negative on defense; Jordan was a less effective impact player than Malone/Stockton/Mourning; Dirk has a better defensive "plus minus" than Wade, etc. I'm gonna disagree with it. And there's nothing you can say or do that will change my mind. Sorry. Call me oblivious to the calculator world, but there's no coming back from that.

The reason I listed Kobe over Duncan is pretty simple:
- far better offensive player (tier or two above offensively when you include the playmaking abilities. lol @ 20ppg on ~58%TS being anywhere close to 32ppg on ~58TS)
- great on defense, not Duncan level but its a closer disparity than their offense
- held his own without needing charity from 2 other HOFers, that were also arguably better on offense

These are facts to me. You won't deem them credible because you rather use your set of parameters, which totally underrate Kobe and the season he had. The same garbage that undermines Jordan's offense and Wade's defense.

Anyway this is just a never ending cycle of disagreements. The longer I debate this the more I'll want to insult you, so I'm gonna stop it here.

I'll read your response to my first question, and move on.

later

You don't understand what RAPM is if you think it makes that claim... Hence you are ignorant.

It's hard to judge Manu because I'm not sure how he would play as the lead option on offense playing full minutes. If he kept up his levels at 38 minutes per game as the number 1 option... Very close to Kobe

My god... stop calling Kobe a great defender....nothing objective supports this.... Literally nothing.

Not on/off
Not RAPM
Not DBPM
Not team defense

Nothing...

Insult all you want.... Won't change the fact that your arguments aren't good... You provide little to no evidence... And you aren't consistent year to year.

I watch the games.... Main stats confirm what I see... Not gonna change my view because you keep saying it over and over with no argument.

And you still seem incapable of understanding your true position. Your position isn't just that Kobe was the best and it's close...you've repeatedly said Duncan has no argument.

So you need to give reasons why a guy like Duncan has no case...and then you have to give reasons why a guy like Kobe in 09/10 does...

See?

For example, you just used the "better all around argument"...not only is that pretty much just false in 07, but lets pretend it's true for a minute...how then, can you not use that same argument against Kobe in 09/10 when Lebron was easily the better all around player?

Another example of this is the "help" argument. Undersell Pau/Odom...Kobe's help all you want...I'm fine with it...but even you would concede Kobe played with a whole lot more help than Lebron those years.

So how are you being consistent? You play the "help card" and "better all around card" here in favor of Kobe...and clearly those things matter as those are really the only two arguments you've come up with.

But see? You don't remain consistent because those things favor Lebron, rather largely, in 09/10.

Lebron was a better all around player and had less help...he didn't have a HOF player, to use your words, like Pau helping him. He didn't have arguably the GOAT coach helping him. Lebron was a more complete player as well...you'd concede that.

So what puts Kobe on Lebron's level if Duncan isn't on Kobe's in 07?

It can't be the all around play. It can't be the help argument. It's not the stats. It can't be the winning in the playoffs because Duncan has that for 07.

See? You seem to have missed the real issue. Which isn't where you rank Kobe for me...it's the inconsistency of putting Kobe next to a player that has all the same arguments/reasons to be "definitively better" that you are using in favor of Kobe vs Duncan in 07.

Going on tangents about your ignorance of RAPM...again, not sure what you are looking at or if it was real RAPM or not...doesn't matter, but I'm still unclear on this.

Or going off about similar to MJ stats...those aren't arguments that make sense.

One could just define 07 Duncan as peak defensive Ben Wallace with well above average offense and team play. It doesn't matter how we define something...it matters what actually happened and what said players were actually doing and what they were capable of.

And while I do agree with tpols, for example, that Duncan gets over-rated offensively at times...he was still a very good offensive player in 07...and way more than just the dump off guy he would later become.

[ArbitraryWater]

Even Tex Winter publcially shitted on Kobe's defense in '06..

what a myth, can't believe halfway decent posters carry it on too :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Anyway this is just a never ending cycle of disagreements. The longer I debate this the more I'll want to insult you, so I'm gonna stop it here.

I'll read your response to my first question, and move on.

later

:roll:

since when this emotional about Kobe? :oldlol:

[catch24]

Even Tex Winter publcially shitted on Kobe's defense in '06..

what a myth, can't believe halfway decent posters carry it on too :oldlol:

That was in 2007. Tex said that Kobe was "erratic" on defense because of the scoring load he had to carry offensively. When Kobe did play sound fundamental defense, Tex also claimed dude was one of the best in the game. Quote was around the time Kobe went on a scoring rampage, with four straight games of 50+ points.

our offense was phucking trash, so I remember the season pretty well. :lol


:roll:

since when this emotional about Kobe? :oldlol:

I just don't want to insult the guy. I'll agree to disagree, he will post something that I view as a cheapshot, and its walls of text from then on.

Really no point in rehashing the same arguments. :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

That was in 2007. Tex said that Kobe was "erratic" on defense because of the scoring load he had to carry offensively. When Kobe did play sound fundamental defense, Tex also claimed dude was one of the best in the game. Quote was around the time Kobe went on a scoring rampage, with four straight games of 50+ points.

our offense was phucking trash, so I remember the season pretty well. :lol



I just don't want to insult the guy. I'll agree to disagree, he will post something that I view as a cheapshot, and its walls of text from then on.

Really no point in rehashing the same arguments. :confusedshrug:

You can insult me...it's not big deal.

I just think at some point you need to learn what RAPM is/does...and realize I'm not using it as the sole piece of evidence...nor does it begin to try and say who the best player was/is.

All I try to use it for is to blow certain things away...for example, Kobe having a "great defensive impact"...this would simply show up in some of the metrics at some point.

For most of the great defenders it does...it would be odd that the guy that it doesn't accurately portray at all would be Kobe...especially as guys like Battier, Artest, Deng...etc....grade out like great defenders.

So it's really hard to get behind the notion that Kobe was a great defender at some of the times you say he was...when it didn't pass the eye test or stat test.

I think, what you really mean to say, is that Kobe was capable of playing great defense when he really wanted to. And I agree with that, but the problem is that he didn't do that consistently enough to actually have the impact you are talking about.