ESPN Top 10 Shooting Guards [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Smoke117

01-13-2016, 10:21 PM

JohnFreeman

01-13-2016, 10:24 PM

I'd put Kobe over Wade all time...but Wade's 09 season is definitely the best season by a SG not named Michael Jordan. His peak was higher than Kobe's for the simple fact that Kobe never gave a consistent effort defensively after 2000. He has all those all defensive nods...but they don't mean much because its pretty apparent the coaches never cared. Wade was a top 2 or 3 best defensive guard in the league in 09 and he was 2nd team...Kobe was 1st. (ditto for 2010) Wade was one of the best defensive guards in 11 and didn't make the team...Kobe was 1st and a poor defensive player by then. Anyway, Kobe never put together a season like Wade did in 09...elite in scoring, playmaking, and defense. He's better all time because Wade dealed with so many injuries throughout his career, but peak vs peak, I don't see how anyone could pick Kobe over Wade.

Anyway, I don't find anything wrong with the list except for Iverson at six. I don't think he's greater than Ray Allen or Goerge Gervin all time.
I think his influence on the NBA and it's culture is what puts him over the top. Everybody got tattoos and cornrows because of Iverson

Bankaii

01-13-2016, 10:28 PM

Drexler over AI makes no sense to me.

Unless you value his one ring with a team that had already won the previous year right before he joined that much.

Black and White

01-13-2016, 10:31 PM

Where do people normally rank Ginobili?

sportjames23

01-13-2016, 10:32 PM

Drexler over AI makes no sense to me.

Unless you value his one ring with a team that had already won the previous year right before he joined that much.

Aside from scoring, what did AI do better than Drexler?

Bankaii

01-13-2016, 10:32 PM

Anyway, I don't find anything wrong with the list except for Iverson at six. I don't think he's greater than Ray Allen or Goerge Gervin all time.
:oldlol: Please explain

TaLvsCuaL

01-13-2016, 10:32 PM

Another ESPN joke list

Bankaii

01-13-2016, 10:40 PM

Aside from scoring, what did AI do better than Drexler?
You say "aside from scoring" as if it isn't viewed as the most important aspect of the game.
Curry is currently known as the best player in world strictly because of scoring, is he not?
There is a 10 ppg scoring gap in the playoffs. It'd be ridiculous to not acknowledge that.

Outside of scoring, I'd say relative to the support the had around them, AI is the better playmaker.

As far as impact goes, I'd give that AI on account of his ability to make subpar teams into contenders.

Peak wise, AI had the better peak. Defense is about a wash. Rebounding is about a wash if you factor in size.

On top of all that, if you look at accolades as well as overall impact on the game beyond stats, the two aren't even close.

Like I said unless Drexler's one ring means that much, AI>Drexler.

plowking

01-13-2016, 10:54 PM

Another ESPN joke list

They got the top 5 right. The rest is really up to opinion, so you can't fault them too much.

Coach Eddie

01-13-2016, 11:56 PM

I surprisingly don't have any major disagreements with this list.

Smoke117

01-14-2016, 12:06 AM

You say "aside from scoring" as if it isn't viewed as the most important aspect of the game.
Curry is currently known as the best player in world strictly because of scoring, is he not?
There is a 10 ppg scoring gap in the playoffs. It'd be ridiculous to not acknowledge that.

Outside of scoring, I'd say relative to the support the had around them, AI is the better playmaker.

As far as impact goes, I'd give that AI on account of his ability to make subpar teams into contenders.

Peak wise, AI had the better peak. Defense is about a wash. Rebounding is about a wash if you factor in size.

On top of all that, if you look at accolades as well as overall impact on the game beyond stats, the two aren't even close.

Like I said unless Drexler's one ring means that much, AI>Drexler.

Iverson was a terrible defensive player...what the hell are you talking about? He's like Westbrook right now...gambled all the time instead of playing good, fundamental defense. Clyde Drexler was just a better rebounder, period. He's one of the best offensive rebounders at his position ever. I'm not even convinced Iverson was a better scorer...yeah he took a lot more shots...but he also missed a much larger percentage of them. Iversons overall career efficiency as a scorer is garbage...especially compared to his rivals in his era.

catch24

01-14-2016, 12:10 AM

Can't disagree with the top 5. After that though you're drawing straws.

Akhenaten

01-14-2016, 12:55 AM

How is West above Wade? Isnt he like 1/9 in the Finals in a time when there were like 8 teams in the league and he had stacked rosters :confusedshrug:

Magic 32

01-14-2016, 01:00 AM

How is West above Wade? Isnt he like 1/9 in the Finals in a time when there were like 8 teams in the league and he had stacked rosters :confusedshrug:

Lebron is 1 shot (by another player) away from being on the same territory.

houston

01-14-2016, 01:02 AM

no t-mac,hal greer, :oldlol:

L.A.Showtime

01-14-2016, 01:05 AM

Kobe in the right spot :applause:

IllegalD

01-14-2016, 01:10 AM

I'd put Kobe over Wade all time...but Wade's 09 season is definitely the best season by a SG not named Michael Jordan. His peak was higher than Kobe's for the simple fact that Kobe never gave a consistent effort defensively after 2000. He has all those all defensive nods...but they don't mean much because its pretty apparent the coaches never cared. Wade was a top 2 or 3 best defensive guard in the league in 09 and he was 2nd team...Kobe was 1st. (ditto for 2010) Wade was one of the best defensive guards in 11 and didn't make the team...Kobe was 1st and a poor defensive player by then. Anyway, Kobe never put together a season like Wade did in 09...elite in scoring, playmaking, and defense. He's better all time because Wade dealed with so many injuries throughout his career, but peak vs peak, I don't see how anyone could pick Kobe over Wade.

Anyway, I don't find anything wrong with the list except for Iverson at six. I don't think he's greater than Ray Allen or Goerge Gervin all time.

Keep telling yourself that, Wade Stanley.

Everyone and their momma would pick the best version of Kobe over the best version of Wade any day of the week. Only people who don't are Wade Stans or insecure LeBron Stans.

:roll: at Kobe not having all-around seasons on par or better than Wade's 2009. Try 2001, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008...

houston

01-14-2016, 01:13 AM

mitch Richmond is a better player Reggie Miller and Ray allen

Bankaii

01-14-2016, 01:17 AM

Iverson was a terrible defensive player...what the hell are you talking about? He's like Westbrook right now...gambled all the time instead of playing good, fundamental defense. Clyde Drexler was just a better rebounder, period. He's one of the best offensive rebounders at his position ever. I'm not even convinced Iverson was a better scorer...yeah he took a lot more shots...but he also missed a much larger percentage of them. Iversons overall career efficiency as a scorer is garbage...especially compared to his rivals in his era.
Calling him a terrible defender is just stupid and a giant exaggeration.
I agree he gambled a lot for steals, but you're just being asinine with that statement. I'm going to assume you were exaggerating, otherwise you're talking out your ass. Even if there is a gap in defense, it's not big. They have the same amount off All-D teams, zero.

He's one of the best rebounders yet he only averaged 3 more rebounds that a guy 7 inches shorter than him.:oldlol: He's not the better rebounder, he's just taller.

Regular season-
Iverson: 27 PPG on 52 ts%
Drexler: 20 PPG on 55 ts%

Playoffs-
Iverson: 30 PPG on 49 ts%
Drexler: 20 PPG on 52 ts%

This doesn't even include the fact that Drexler had legit scoring options with him throughout his career. AI was the only offensive focal point for the majority of his career. Even with this the difference in efficiency is minuscule.
AI isn't the better scorer though.:rolleyes:

This along with having a better peak, impact, MVP, more All-NBA 1st and 2nd teams, more All-star appearances, ROTY, 4x more scoring champs, and 3x more steals champs. AI clearly has the better resume all while playing during a much tougher era for his position. Just stop.

Bankaii

01-14-2016, 01:19 AM

Keep telling yourself that, Wade Stanley.

Everyone and their momma would pick the best version of Kobe over the best version of Wade any day of the week. Only people who don't are Wade Stans or insecure LeBron Stans.

:roll: at Kobe not having all-around seasons on par or better than Wade's 2009. Try 2001, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008...
2006 and 2007 are no where near 2009 Wade.

Kobe barely played defense and was not as good of a playmaker/passer.

ClipperRevival

01-14-2016, 01:53 AM

ClipperRevival

01-14-2016, 01:58 AM

I'd put Kobe over Wade all time...but Wade's 09 season is definitely the best season by a SG not named Michael Jordan. His peak was higher than Kobe's for the simple fact that Kobe never gave a consistent effort defensively after 2000. He has all those all defensive nods...but they don't mean much because its pretty apparent the coaches never cared. Wade was a top 2 or 3 best defensive guard in the league in 09 and he was 2nd team...Kobe was 1st. (ditto for 2010) Wade was one of the best defensive guards in 11 and didn't make the team...Kobe was 1st and a poor defensive player by then. Anyway, Kobe never put together a season like Wade did in 09...elite in scoring, playmaking, and defense. He's better all time because Wade dealed with so many injuries throughout his career, but peak vs peak, I don't see how anyone could pick Kobe over Wade.

Anyway, I don't find anything wrong with the list except for Iverson at six. I don't think he's greater than Ray Allen or Goerge Gervin all time.

Don't know about peak for peak but I will say that Kobe's D is one of the most overrated aspects of his game, especially starting from the 2009-10 season. He has so many undeserved All-Defensive teams. I have no idea why. I think maybe it's because he had some good games against other elite guards but you can't ignore the other 65 games or so. He was often the guy gambling and putting the D in bad position. Did a lot of roaming, sort of like a free safety in football and not being disciplined.

sportjames23

01-14-2016, 01:59 AM

bizil

01-14-2016, 02:22 AM

That list is MUCH BETTER than ESPN's PG list. I don't have any major qualms at all. BUT I think Sam Jones is starting to become very underrated as the years go on.

ClipperRevival

01-14-2016, 02:22 AM

Calling him a terrible defender is just stupid and a giant exaggeration.
I agree he gambled a lot for steals, but you're just being asinine with that statement. I'm going to assume you were exaggerating, otherwise you're talking out your ass. Even if there is a gap in defense, it's not big. They have the same amount off All-D teams, zero.

He's one of the best rebounders yet he only averaged 3 more rebounds that a guy 7 inches shorter than him.:oldlol: He's not the better rebounder, he's just taller.

Regular season-
Iverson: 27 PPG on 52 ts%
Drexler: 20 PPG on 55 ts%

Playoffs-
Iverson: 30 PPG on 49 ts%
Drexler: 20 PPG on 52 ts%

This doesn't even include the fact that Drexler had legit scoring options with him throughout his career. AI was the only offensive focal point for the majority of his career. Even with this the difference in efficiency is minuscule.
AI isn't the better scorer though.:rolleyes:

This along with having a better peak, impact, MVP, more All-NBA 1st and 2nd teams, more All-star appearances, ROTY, 4x more scoring champs, and 3x more steals champs. AI clearly has the better resume all while playing during a much tougher era for his position. Just stop.

Drexler is one of the best rebounding guards ever. And even though AI played the point, Drexler was right there with AI in assists. Ditto for steals. AI averaged 2.2 while Drexler was at 2.0. Drexler gave you a complete, all around game. He was much more impactful in that regard. A lot of it is not AI's fault. Being 7 inches shorter is a HUGE disadvantage in bball.

AI is the epitome of a high volume scorer. His career shooting pct of 42% is just terrible. That's not the type of player I would want if I wanted to build a championship team. If I want to make the playoffs and give fans excitement, sure.

Odinn

01-14-2016, 02:24 AM

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 02:26 AM

2006 and 2007 are no where near 2009 Wade.

Kobe barely played defense and was not as good of a playmaker/passer.

Wade is no where near 09 Kobe. FACT.

Kobe actually led his Team to a championship while putting up second 3peat Jordan numbers.

ClipperRevival

01-14-2016, 02:31 AM

It's not a bad list. I'm especially surprised when I consider ESPN standards.
BTW, I'd pick Gervin over both, Drexler and AI. But it's hard to qualify SG-SF combos. I mean if Gervin considered SG, T-Mac could have been considered as well and he was better than Ray & Reggie.

I take Drexler over Gervin. As the article said, Drexler came along at THE worst time ever for a SG (MJ). In any other era, he would've had more publicity. Gervin obviously had the edge in scoring but Drexler gave you an all around game. Better rebounder, passer and defender.

Hamtaro CP3KDKG

01-14-2016, 02:36 AM

Manu is better than half that list and honestly should be considered top 5. In terms of peak definitely
his 05 campaign was ridiculous. He was the best SG in the league that season with Kobe hurt and Wade not at 06 levels
he was the best player of any player in the league in the playoffs including Timmy.

He eviscerated Denver, outplayed prime Nash and prime Ray Allen b2b, hit numerous clutch shots, made a bunch of clutch defensive plays and pinpoint passes and shredded Detroits vaunted alltime D and got robbed of FMVP. One of the most underrated defenders ever too, travesty he hasnt had an allD team. He was a better overall defender than a dude like Bowen who got overrated for one on one matchup defense and was one of the better perimeter defenders of the past decade. Not top 10 but top 20 for sure of past decade

fsvr54

01-14-2016, 02:36 AM

mitch Richmond is a better player Reggie Miller and Ray allen

My thoughts exactly. Easily better than Miller.

ClipperRevival

01-14-2016, 02:39 AM

Wade is no where near 09 Kobe. FACT.

Kobe actually led his Team to a championship while putting up second 3peat Jordan numbers.

Kobe was absolutely masterful in the 2009 playoffs. Few will agree with me but to me, he was at his absolute best in terms of being the best superstar he can be for his team and maximizing the talents on his team. His closest MJ impression. Taking over games offensively when the team needed it, consistently setting up teammates and being clutch as hell. Even playing great D as he still had a lot of athleticism. Sure, he was more athletic years before and scored more. But in terms of being the best superstar he can be to help his team win? 2009 playoffs for me.

bizil

01-14-2016, 02:40 AM

I take Drexler over Gervin. As the article said, Drexler came along at THE worst time ever for a SG (MJ). In any other era, he would've had more publicity. Gervin obviously had the edge in scoring but Drexler gave you an all around game. Better rebounder, passer and defender.

Well said! Drexler was redefining the SG position AT THE SAME TIME as MJ. They brought Dr.J size (give or take a bit) and freak athletic ability to the SG position. From there, they combined it with epic all around ability.

And Portland had the CHANCE to have them both!!! So instead of Clyde being a top 5 GOAT SG, he could have been a top 5 GOAT SF. And of course u could play them in the backcourt together as well. I think MJ and Clyde would have worked AWESOME together!

silenc

01-14-2016, 02:47 AM

Replace Monroe with Maravich and im fine!

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 02:49 AM

Wade is no where near 09 Kobe. FACT.

Kobe actually led his Team to a championship while putting up second 3peat Jordan numbers.

:roll:

I'll reply to this shit post when I'm not on my phone.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 02:50 AM

Kobe was absolutely masterful in the 2009 playoffs. Few will agree with me but to me, he was at his absolute best in terms of being the best superstar he can be for his team and maximizing the talents on his team. His closest MJ impression. Taking over games offensively when the team needed it, consistently setting up teammates and being clutch as hell. Even playing great D as he still had a lot of athleticism. Sure, he was more athletic years before and scored more. But in terms of being the best superstar he can be to help his team win? 2009 playoffs for me.

His overall play was very similar to 01 Frobe. He did everything for that Laker Team. Score, playmake, defense and even rebounding when they really needed it like in the infamous 6/24 game.

One aspect of Kobe's career that's vastly underrated is his ability to just do exactly what his Teams need to win at any point in time. Just go watch the 00 game 7 vs The Blazers , Kobe got them back in the game with his all around game. Of course sometimes it was a detriment like in 2004, but I feel like that was before Kobe really knew what it meant to be the guy.

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 02:50 AM

Manu is better than half that list and honestly should be considered top 5. In terms of peak definitely
his 05 campaign was ridiculous. e was the best SG in the league that season with Kobe hurt and Wade not at 06 levels
he was the best player of any player in the league in the playoffs including Timmy.

He eviscerated Denver, outplayed prime Nash and prime Ray Allen b2b, hit numerous clutch shots, made a bunch of clutch defensive plays and pinpoint passes and shredded Detroits vaunted alltime D and got robbed of FMVP. One of the most underrated defenders ever too, travesty he hasnt had an allD team. He was a better overall defender than a dude like Bowen who got overrated for one on one matchup defense and was one of the better perimeter defenders of the past decade. Not top 10 but top 20 for sure of past decade

:roll:

Hamtaro CP3KDKG

01-14-2016, 02:50 AM

:roll:
Manu> Wade in 05

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 02:52 AM

:roll:

I'll reply to this shit post when I'm not on my phone.

What exactly do you have to refute it? Regular season play? Kobe had the better season in totality , point blank period.

There is also a post season and Finals series to consider not just regular season stats. Just because Wade didn't go the distance shouldn't have any barring on how amazing Kobe played.

The entire Season.

bizil

01-14-2016, 02:54 AM

I see Mitch Richmond's name being debated as top 10 caliber. Peak wise, I think Mitch was better than Reggie Miller. But GOAT wise, I gotta give Reggie the edge on that one. But peak wise, these would be my top 10 SG's of all time: (no particular order other than the top two)

MJ
Kobe
Wade
T Mac
West
Drexler
Iceman
Pistol Pete
Vince
AI

Bankaii

01-14-2016, 02:59 AM

Scoring means nothing if you get yours at the expense of the offense. I'm sorry, AI was a warrior and gave his all but I would take Drexler over AI in a split second. First off, he messed up your offense because he was a PG playing SG. He just dominated the ball and played too much iso ball to allow his team to play optimal ball. Drexler, on the other hand, was one of the most well rounded wing players ever. He gave you alpha dog scoring, rebounding, passing, steals and solid D. Not to mention his 6'7" frame compared to AI's 6'0" frame.

Drexler made 2 finals as "the man" and had the misfortune of facing two all time great teams in the Pistons and Bulls and made a 3rd final and won as 2nd fiddle. He was absolutely a monster against Utah that year when they were down 2-1 and he took over the last two games scoring 41 and 31. So Houston never repeats without Drexler.
Who was AI stopping though, seriously name 1 player AI kept from reaching their scoring potential?
Look at the stats, not a single player from the 76ers had better scoring years without AI.

His 2nd option was Mutombo for crying out loud, what is he supposed to do with that.
Drexler had stacked teams, period. He had 3-4 teammates averaging double digits including a consistent 20 PPG sidekick.

The efficiency thing is slightly overrated. No doubt AI was a chucker, but when you take into account that defenses didn't have to worry about ANY of his teammates on top of him being undersized, it's to be expected. Just look at when he joined the Nuggets with Carmelo, he averaged 25-25 PPG on 45% over 2 years. Dude had no help his 76ers years.

Even so, Drexler is only 3% more efficient, despite averaging 7-10 less PPG with multiple offensive threats beside him and being much taller.

When comparing them as players, the only thing I'd give Drexler is overall defense. AI had to create shots for offensively handicapped teammates, Drexler didn't.

I assumed this list was referring to careers as a whole. As far as the better player, it's a close debate. But as far as careers go, AI is pretty clear on top.

SouBeachTalents

01-14-2016, 03:01 AM

Kobe was absolutely masterful in the 2009 playoffs. Few will agree with me but to me, he was at his absolute best in terms of being the best superstar he can be for his team and maximizing the talents on his team. His closest MJ impression. Taking over games offensively when the team needed it, consistently setting up teammates and being clutch as hell. Even playing great D as he still had a lot of athleticism. Sure, he was more athletic years before and scored more. But in terms of being the best superstar he can be to help his team win? 2009 playoffs for me.

I've got to respectfully disagree. Kobe was at his best during that span during his run to the Finals in '08, I can't decide if that or his undefeated run through the West in '01 was the best he played during his career in the playoffs. I'm not even sure he was better during his run to the Finals in '09 than he was in '10, he had monster WCF both years, but that series against the Suns was arguably the best series of his career. In terms of Finals though, '09 was far and away his best Finals performance during that span

Bankaii

01-14-2016, 03:03 AM

Wade is no where near 09 Kobe. FACT.

Kobe actually led his Team to a championship while putting up second 3peat Jordan numbers.
Saying bullshit then ending it by saying "fact" doesn't make it any less bullshit.

So by your logic, Wade 06 > Kobe 06 right? He led his team to a chip while putting up better Finals numbers than Kobe ever has.

ClipperRevival

01-14-2016, 03:06 AM

His overall play was very similar to 01 Frobe. He did everything for that Laker Team. Score, playmake, defense and even rebounding when they really needed it like in the infamous 6/24 game.

One aspect of Kobe's career that's vastly underrated is his ability to just do exactly what his Teams need to win at any point in time. Just go watch the 00 game 7 vs The Blazers , Kobe got them back in the game with his all around game. Of course sometimes it was a detriment like in 2004, but I feel like that was before Kobe really knew what it meant to be the guy.

Kobe elevating his play to another level is what enabled the Lakers to be unbeatable in the 2001 playoffs. But the difference between 2001 and 2009, at least for me is that he was "the man" in 2009. Defenses game planned against him first. Kobe was only 23 in 2001, so he got by with a lot of athleticism along with having Shaq. But 2009 Kobe was the perfect mix of still having a lot of athleticism, more polished skills and the years of accumulated bball iq/feel for the game which enabled him to better gauge what the team needed and provide it.

ClipperRevival

01-14-2016, 03:18 AM

I've got to respectfully disagree. Kobe was at his best during that span during his run to the Finals in '08, I can't decide if that or his undefeated run through the West in '01 was the best he played during his career in the playoffs. I'm not even sure he was better during his run to the Finals in '09 than he was in '10, he had monster WCF both years, but that series against the Suns was arguably the best series of his career. In terms of Finals though, '09 was far and away his best Finals performance during that span

I know few will agree. But yeah, I got to stick with the 2009 playoffs. He was masterful. He played optimal bball and not just looking to get his as he does at times. He was so clutch. Wonder where his famous scowl first appeared? It was when he hit that off balanced 3 over JR Smith to seal game 3. He was so, so clutch during the entire playoffs that year. He just gave the team exactly what it needed whether setting up teammates or taking over offensively.

By 2009-10, Kobe lost a half step so his D took a dip. So he wasn't as impactful. He didn't have the same explosiveness and quickness as before.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 03:21 AM

Saying bullshit then ending it by saying "fact" doesn't make it any less bullshit.

So by your logic, Wade 06 > Kobe 06 right? He led his team to a chip while putting up better Finals numbers than Kobe ever has.

I would agree if Kobe didn't average 35 pts that year and dropped 81 with good Defense. 09 Wade wasn't on that level. Plus you have to consider their Teammates and conference, Kobe had one of the worst rosters in the NBA from 05-07, while Wade had a Team full of HoF Teammates his first Finals go round. It's nothing 06 Kobe couldn't have done if he was playing next to a Shaq who decided to take a back seat. Kobe outscored that very same Finals Mavs Team in three quarters, you honestly think he couldn't put up the numbers Wade did in 06 Finals if not better? The same Kobe who dropped 81 that same year....

Compared to 09 Wade and Kobe, while Wade had the worse Team, he was in the easier conference with really only The big 3 Celtics , Lebron and Dwight to worry about in the post season, yet he lost to a Josh Smith led Atlanta Hawks. He didn't even make it to the real competition, while Kobe was eliminated in 06 by what some would argue was one of the best Teams of that time in the Phoenix Suns, despite never winning anything of note.

Wade had amazing stats no doubt, but Kobe had similar if not better stats (over the entire season) with better results. That should count for something.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 03:25 AM

I know few will agree. But yeah, I got to stick with the 2009 playoffs. He was masterful. He played optimal bball and not just looking to get his as he does at times. He was so clutch. Wonder where his famous scowl first appeared? It was when he hit that off balanced 3 over JR Smith to seal game 3. He was so, so clutch during the entire playoffs that year. He just gave the team exactly what it needed whether setting up teammates or taking over offensively.

By 2009-10, Kobe lost a half step so his D took a dip. So he wasn't as impactful. He didn't have the same explosiveness and quickness as before.

That scowl first appeared when he was still Frobe. Check at 2:25 of this vid.

https://youtu.be/jRtN0kWGA7k

ClipperRevival

01-14-2016, 03:28 AM

Who was AI stopping though, seriously name 1 player AI kept from reaching their scoring potential?
Look at the stats, not a single player from the 76ers had better scoring years without AI.

His 2nd option was Mutombo for crying out loud, what is he supposed to do with that.
Drexler had stacked teams, period. He had 3-4 teammates averaging double digits including a consistent 20 PPG sidekick.

The efficiency thing is slightly overrated. No doubt AI was a chucker, but when you take into account that defenses didn't have to worry about ANY of his teammates on top of him being undersized, it's to be expected. Just look at when he joined the Nuggets with Carmelo, he averaged 25-25 PPG on 45% over 2 years. Dude had no help his 76ers years.

Even so, Drexler is only 3% more efficient, despite averaging 7-10 less PPG with multiple offensive threats beside him and being much taller.

When comparing them as players, the only thing I'd give Drexler is overall defense. AI had to create shots for offensively handicapped teammates, Drexler didn't.

I assumed this list was referring to careers as a whole. As far as the better player, it's a close debate. But as far as careers go, AI is pretty clear on top.

Not trying to discredit AI in any way. Pound for pound, he might be the best ever but I've just never been a fan of his game and style of play. It's not optimal bball when your PG takes 22-27 shots a game on 42%. You don't win championships with that formula. Again, the guy was an absolute athletic freak and one of the best scorers ever but he just isn't my cup of tea.

Give me a 6'7", athletic guy like Drexler who can pretty much do anything over a guy like AI.

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 03:42 AM

What exactly do you have to refute it? Regular season play? Kobe had the better season in totality , point blank period.

There is also a post season and Finals series to consider not just regular season stats. Just because Wade didn't go the distance shouldn't have any barring on how amazing Kobe played.

The entire Season.

Wade just far more dominant than Kobe that Season. Wade played good in the Playoffs that year but you really expected him to go the distance with that squad? :lol

So '06 Wade > '06 Kobe & '13 Wade > '13 Kobe using your logic, right?

ClipperRevival

01-14-2016, 03:49 AM

That scowl first appeared when he was still Frobe. Check at 2:25 of this vid.

https://youtu.be/jRtN0kWGA7k

Doesn't really look the same. But what I loved about the scowl against Denver was that it a genuine reaction after hitting a huge 3. If Lakers lose that game, they go down 1-2 with Denver having HCA.

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 04:01 AM

I would agree if Kobe didn't average 35 pts that year and dropped 81 with good Defense.

Kobe didn't play good defense that year. You bring up his Regular Season achievements but with Wade it's the Playoffs that matter. You just contradicted yourself moron.

09 Wade wasn't on that level.

I can't with you stupid Kobe stans. '09 Wade had better All-Around numbers while being a much better Playmaker & Defender.

Plus you have to consider their Teammates and conference, Kobe had one of the worst rosters in the NBA from 05-07, while Wade had a Team full of HoF Teammates his first Finals go round.

Conference? The '06 West had 2 Contenders in the Mavs & Spurs while the '06 East had Miami & Detroit.

Hall of Fame teammates? Zo with his 4 & 3 coming off the bench and Payton with his 6/2/2 off the bench in the Playoffs...Hall of Fame teammates.

It's nothing 06 Kobe couldn't have done if he was playing next to a Shaq who decided to take a back seat. Kobe outscored that very same Finals Mavs Team in three quarters, you honestly think he couldn't put up the numbers Wade did in 06 Finals if not better? The same Kobe who dropped 81 that same year....

Kobe also had a 5/22 shooting Game vs those Mavs but Kobe stans never mention that Game. Kobe wasn't going to do anything with the '06 Heat, is he going to shoot 62% vs Detroit? How about putting up 31pts on 70% shooting through the 1st 4 Games to put the Heat up 3-1? Is he going to give you 28/6/7 on 49% shooting vs the Nets? You literally skipped to the Finals as if Kobe would have even gotten there.

Compared to 09 Wade and Kobe, while Wade had the worse Team, he was in the easier conference with really only The big 3 Celtics , Lebron and Dwight to worry about in the post season, yet he lost to a Josh Smith led Atlanta Hawks.

Kobe's biggest threat as a Contender in the West in '09 was the Nuggets. There were 3 Contenders in the East until KG's injury.

Again, Wade played good in the Playoffs and the Hawks weren't lead by Josh Smith..this dude is making shit up for his argument :oldlol:

He didn't even make it to the real competition, while Kobe was eliminated in 06 by what some would argue was one of the best Teams of that time in the Phoenix Suns, despite never winning anything of note.

The '06 Suns without Amare, who were literally Nash with just role players? :roll:

WayOfWade

01-14-2016, 04:03 AM

I would agree if Kobe didn't average 35 pts that year and dropped 81 with good Defense. 09 Wade wasn't on that level. Plus you have to consider their Teammates and conference, Kobe had one of the worst rosters in the NBA from 05-07, while Wade had a Team full of HoF Teammates his first Finals go round. It's nothing 06 Kobe couldn't have done if he was playing next to a Shaq who decided to take a back seat. Kobe outscored that very same Finals Mavs Team in three quarters, you honestly think he couldn't put up the numbers Wade did in 06 Finals if not better? The same Kobe who dropped 81 that same year....

Compared to 09 Wade and Kobe, while Wade had the worse Team, he was in the easier conference with really only The big 3 Celtics , Lebron and Dwight to worry about in the post season, yet he lost to a Josh Smith led Atlanta Hawks. He didn't even make it to the real competition, while Kobe was eliminated in 06 by what some would argue was one of the best Teams of that time in the Phoenix Suns, despite never winning anything of note.

Wade had amazing stats no doubt, but Kobe had similar if not better stats (over the entire season) with better results. That should count for something.
You do know it's quite easy to argue 09' Wade over 06' Kobe right? 30.2 PPG & 7.5 APG > 35.6 PPG & 4.5 APG, do the math. Wade shot nearly 50% from the field without the league rules that made it easier for wing players to score in 06'. Both lost in 6, but Kobe choked away a 3-1 lead, I could go on. While you are right about results, you have to think about context, both players had the absolute opposite situations in 06' and 09', with Wade having more success in 06' while Kobe was better and vice versa in 09'. Legit though, you can argue either was better in either year, both have compelling cases in all years, but my personal opinion is 06' Kobe > 06' Wade, 09' Kobe < 09' Wade, and finally 06' Kobe > 09' Wade (success rules out, who was the better player). I know I just argued 09' Wade was better, but that was just to prove a point

aj1987

01-14-2016, 04:16 AM

Manu> Wade in 05
The **** are you smoking?

'05 Regular Season:

Wade - 24.1 PPG 5.2 RPG 6.8 APG 1.6 SPG 1.1 BPG
Manu - 16.0 PPG 4.4 RPG 3.8 APG 1.6 SPG 0.4 BPG

'05 Playoffs:

Wade - 27.4 PPG 5.7 RPG 6.6 APG 1.6 SPG 1.1 BPG
Manu - 20.8 PPG 5.8 RPG 4.2 APG 1.2 SPG 0.3 BPG

Wade literally >>> Manu at everything. Not only that, Wade made the All-D team than season and was a MUCH better defender.

Heck they played against the same team as well in the PO's and Wade was eviscerating them, until his rib injury. Dude was putting up 30/6/5/1/2 until his injury. Even after his injury, he still averaged 26/5/4/2/1. Manu? 19/6/4/1.

I would agree if Kobe didn't average 35 pts that year and dropped 81 with good Defense. 09 Wade wasn't on that level. Plus you have to consider their Teammates and conference, Kobe had one of the worst rosters in the NBA from 05-07, while Wade had a Team full of HoF Teammates his first Finals go round. It's nothing 06 Kobe couldn't have done if he was playing next to a Shaq who decided to take a back seat. Kobe outscored that very same Finals Mavs Team in three quarters, you honestly think he couldn't put up the numbers Wade did in 06 Finals if not better? The same Kobe who dropped 81 that same year....

Compared to 09 Wade and Kobe, while Wade had the worse Team, he was in the easier conference with really only The big 3 Celtics , Lebron and Dwight to worry about in the post season, yet he lost to a Josh Smith led Atlanta Hawks. He didn't even make it to the real competition, while Kobe was eliminated in 06 by what some would argue was one of the best Teams of that time in the Phoenix Suns, despite never winning anything of note.

Wade had amazing stats no doubt, but Kobe had similar if not better stats (over the entire season) with better results. That should count for something.

WOAT post. No surprise that it's you who posted it though. Calling the '06 Heat a team full of HOF'ers? It's like saying that Kobe lost in the Finals with a top 5, top 15, and a top 40 GOAT in '04 and barely made the PO's with 3 HOF'ers, 1 DPOY, and a multiple time All-Star.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 04:30 AM

The **** are you smoking?

'05 Regular Season:

Wade - 24.1 PPG 5.2 RPG 6.8 APG 1.6 SPG 1.1 BPG
Manu - 16.0 PPG 4.4 RPG 3.8 APG 1.6 SPG 0.4 BPG

'05 Playoffs:

Wade - 27.4 PPG 5.7 RPG 6.6 APG 1.6 SPG 1.1 BPG
Manu - 20.8 PPG 5.8 RPG 4.2 APG 1.2 SPG 0.3 BPG

Wade literally >>> Manu at everything. Not only that, Wade made the All-D team than season and was a MUCH better defender.

Heck they played against the same team as well in the PO's and Wade was eviscerating them, until his rib injury. Dude was putting up 30/6/5/1/2 until his injury. Even after his injury, he still averaged 26/5/4/2/1. Manu? 19/6/4/1.

WOAT post. No surprise that it's you who posted it though. Calling the '06 Heat a team full of HOF'ers? It's like saying that Kobe lost in the Finals with a top 5, top 15, and a top 40 GOAT in '04 and barely made the PO's with 3 HOF'ers, 1 DPOY, and a multiple time All-Star.

Alonzo, Shaq and Gary Payton aren't Hall Of Famers? :biggums:

Put your emotions to the side , you act like I said they were superstars or even all stars (even though Shaq still was) but it doesn't change that was a well rounded veteran Team with three HoF players.

aj1987

01-14-2016, 04:37 AM

Alonzo, Shaq and Gary Payton aren't Hall Of Famers? :biggums:
How many of them played like HOF'ers? Again read the rest of the post. According to that logic, Kobe lost with a top 5 GOAT, a top 15 GOAT, and a top 40 GOAT. That's 3 HOF'ers. A younger GP, Shaq, and Malone > Mourning. So, why did Kobe lose and Wade win?

Again in '13, dude BARELY made the PO's (with a shit ton of rigging (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MhmGyZ7KF0)). He had a 2x MVP, a 3x DPOY, 1x DPOY, HOF All-Star big, and an All-Star Forward. In short, 3 HOF'ers, 1 DPOY, and an All-Star F.

That's some great logic you're using dude.

Put your emotions to the side , you act like I said they were superstars or even all stars (even though Shaq still was) but it doesn't change that was a well rounded veteran Team with three HoF players.
Shaq was still good until the Finals. Walker and Williams were absolutely terrible in the PO's. Mourning barely played ~10 minutes a game. Payton was only getting minutes because the Heat had no one else at PG.

kennethgriffin

01-14-2016, 06:26 AM

pete maravich was a better basketball player than reggie miller, ray allen and earl monroe

its a shame his short career cost him a chance at being a top 10 shooting guard

silenc

01-14-2016, 06:33 AM

Btw 2008 list:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-greatestsgs

ClipperRevival

01-14-2016, 11:10 AM

Btw 2008 list:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-greatestsgs

LOL. They just went with the best PER for that group.

feyki

01-14-2016, 11:16 AM

Surprisingly good list by espn . I guess they forgot Sam Jones .

Legends66NBA7

01-14-2016, 12:09 PM

Btw 2008 list:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-greatestsgs

I remember this list.

Chris Sherdian had Maravich #2 ? And I guess the #2 missing from Chris Palmer, but I think that belongs to Geroge Gervin ? Would like to have known how they got to that.

No votes for Wade (article was posted/updated on March 11, 2008) makes sense, even with his elite seasons in 05 and 06. Too short of a career and he was in the midst of an injury plagued season and had another one the previous season. He's done a lot since that to establish a Top 4 SG legacy.

Bankaii

01-14-2016, 12:12 PM

Not trying to discredit AI in any way. Pound for pound, he might be the best ever but I've just never been a fan of his game and style of play. It's not optimal bball when your PG takes 22-27 shots a game on 42%. You don't win championships with that formula. Again, the guy was an absolute athletic freak and one of the best scorers ever but he just isn't my cup of tea.

Give me a 6'7", athletic guy like Drexler who can pretty much do anything over a guy like AI.
I get what you're saying and agree for the most part.

AI's chemistry issues are a major reason why some teams/fans don't like him.
But look at his offensive help. Any Philly fan would agree that when the 76ers were on offense they would pass the ball to run out the clock and then expect AI to bail them out. His play didn't stop anyone from their potential.

When he had adequate help in 07/08 he was putting up equal numbers Drexler on good effeciency while allowing teammates to flourish.

Again as far as who the better player is or easier to build around its a toss up.
But AI pretty clearly has the better career when you look at impact along with accolades.

Legends66NBA7

01-14-2016, 12:27 PM

Looking at the other lists, particularly C's.

Bill Russell got the most #1 votes, but got ranked #3 behind Wilt and KAJ. Hollinger and Royce Webb ranked him 6th and David Thorpe ranked him 5th, which brought down his rankings. KAJ and Wilt didn't get lower than 4th. KAJ won by 1 vote.

Back to SG's, some of the guys who did get votes over Wade (short career at the time or not), shouldn't have gotten voted ahead of him. His 05 and 06 seasons alone is as good if not better than whatever else they accomplished in their respective careers. Tribute to Wade's greatness early on.

feyki

01-14-2016, 12:32 PM

Bankaii

01-14-2016, 12:32 PM

I would agree if Kobe didn't average 35 pts that year and dropped 81 with good Defense. 09 Wade wasn't on that level. Plus you have to consider their Teammates and conference, Kobe had one of the worst rosters in the NBA from 05-07, while Wade had a Team full of HoF Teammates his first Finals go round. It's nothing 06 Kobe couldn't have done if he was playing next to a Shaq who decided to take a back seat. Kobe outscored that very same Finals Mavs Team in three quarters, you honestly think he couldn't put up the numbers Wade did in 06 Finals if not better? The same Kobe who dropped 81 that same year....

Compared to 09 Wade and Kobe, while Wade had the worse Team, he was in the easier conference with really only The big 3 Celtics , Lebron and Dwight to worry about in the post season, yet he lost to a Josh Smith led Atlanta Hawks. He didn't even make it to the real competition, while Kobe was eliminated in 06 by what some would argue was one of the best Teams of that time in the Phoenix Suns, despite never winning anything of note.

Wade had amazing stats no doubt, but Kobe had similar if not better stats (over the entire season) with better results. That should count for something.
This is Dubeta level retard. I honestly hope you're trolling, and not actually serious.

It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it still isn't true. KOBE PLAYED NO DEFENSE IN 2006. Not even normal Kobe fans will deny that. He put 100% of his effort into scoring. He wasn't a playmaker for his teammates and he didn't play defense.
06 Wade was a better defensive player than Kobe that year, was a better playmaker and passer, and a better and more effecient scorer when it mattered.
And look at Wade's 06 help. Shaq was equal to Gasol at that point. Why don't you post his "team full of HOFs" stats.

You're using regular season scoring to project playoffs/finals scoring:biggums:
Wilt would've dropped 100 points in the Finals if given the chance right?
Kobe has never had a scoring Finals as good as 06 Wade, so why would he magically do it then?

Why do bring up Kobe's bad team in 06, but don't mention Wade's bad help in 09?
In 2006 Kobe may have had a bad team but he only had to worry about the Spurs, Steve Nash, and Dirk stopping him. Do you realize how stupid that sounds?
In 06 Kobe lost after having a 3-1 lead to a Steve Nash led team, why didn't you mention that?
And quit overrating the Suns, they're the equivalent to the current Clippers.

09 is a lot closer because this is Kobe's most complete form as a player imo. But if you're dumb enough to say 09 Wade isn't on that level I shouldn't even waste my time.

tpols

01-14-2016, 12:34 PM

I'd put Kobe over Wade all time...but Wade's 09 season is definitely the best season by a SG not named Michael Jordan. His peak was higher than Kobe's for the simple fact that Kobe never gave a consistent effort defensively after 2000. .

in 2008 Kobe definitely gave effort on defense.. and as far as bold goes there's no "definite" about a bunch of RS stats and losing to the hawks in the first round either.

Wade fans are something else.. your boy had shaq when he was still getting MVP votes, and peak Lebron/Bosh in a garbage conference.. yet he only has 3 rings and 1 fmvp to show for it.. Kobe had similar career arc, stacked team, to poor team, to somewhat stacked team, yet came out with 5 and 2. Wade's like a lite version of what Kobe did. He's Kobe's Clyde. But I guess you can hang your hats on this mythical 09 regular season.

catch24

01-14-2016, 01:09 PM

in 2008 Kobe definitely gave effort on defense.. and as far as bold goes there's no "definite" about a bunch of RS stats and losing to the hawks in the first round either.

Wade fans are something else.. your boy had shaq when he was still getting MVP votes, and peak Lebron/Bosh in a garbage conference.. yet he only has 3 rings and 1 fmvp to show for it.. Kobe had similar career arc, stacked team, to poor team, to somewhat stacked team, yet came out with 5 and 2. Wade's like a lite version of what Kobe did. He's Kobe's Clyde. But I guess you can hang your hats on this mythical 09 regular season.

Wade in 2009 was incredible. Arguably the best regular-season from a SG since Jordan...however Kobe's 2006 regular-season is too AND he played better in the playoffs that year.

Not sure why these revisionists think they can claim Kobe played "zero defense" in 2006 or 2007, when his own assistant coach called him one of the best on that end. :oldlol: Tex Winter had said Kobe wasn't giving a consistent effort on defense amid his 50 point streak (4 games) and what do haters do? Run away with that thinking he played NO DEFENSE whatsoever. That Kobe making undeserved all defensive teams in 2010 and 2011 is the standard here.

SMH. At this point Kobe's defense is underrated, as his all-around game is.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 01:11 PM

This is Dubeta level retard. I honestly hope you're trolling, and not actually serious.

It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it still isn't true. KOBE PLAYED NO DEFENSE IN 2006. Not even normal Kobe fans will deny that. He put 100% of his effort into scoring. He wasn't a playmaker for his teammates and he didn't play defense.
06 Wade was a better defensive player than Kobe that year, was a better playmaker and passer, and a better and more effecient scorer when it mattered.
And look at Wade's 06 help. Shaq was equal to Gasol at that point. Why don't you post his "team full of HOFs" stats.

You're using regular season scoring to project playoffs/finals scoring:biggums:
Wilt would've dropped 100 points in the Finals if given the chance right?
Kobe has never had a scoring Finals as good as 06 Wade, so why would he magically do it then?

Why do bring up Kobe's bad team in 06, but don't mention Wade's bad help in 09?
In 2006 Kobe may have had a bad team but he only had to worry about the Spurs, Steve Nash, and Dirk stopping him. Do you realize how stupid that sounds?
In 06 Kobe lost after having a 3-1 lead to a Steve Nash led team, why didn't you mention that?
And quit overrating the Suns, they're the equivalent to the current Clippers.

09 is a lot closer because this is Kobe's most complete form as a player imo. But if you're dumb enough to say 09 Wade isn't on that level I shouldn't even waste my time.

I did bring that up, thanks for exposing the fact that you aren't reading what I wrote at all and are only focused on the fact that Kobe > Wade in all facets of Basketball aside from slashing and blocks as a 2 guard.

Other than that Kobe is a better scorer, playmaker, shooter, defender and better leader. Wade is good at taking a back seat which is one of the things highlighted by the ESPN writers in his ranking. :oldlol: :cheers:

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 01:16 PM

Wade in 2009 was incredible. Arguably the best regular-season from a SG since Jordan...however Kobe's 2006 regular-season is too AND he played better in the playoffs that year.

Not sure why these revisionists think they can claim Kobe played "zero defense" in 2006 or 2007, when his own assistant coach called him one of the best on that end. :oldlol: Tex Winter had said Kobe wasn't giving a consistent effort on defense amid his 50 point streak (4 games) and what do haters do? Run away with that thinking he played NO DEFENSE whatsoever. That Kobe making undeserved all defensive teams in 2010 and 2011 is the standard here.

SMH. At this point Kobe's defense is underrated, as his all-around game is.

The mere fact ESPN didn't mention a single of his many all defensive Teams is proof the analytics community underrates his defense, yet if you look at the old link from 2008 they called him one of the best two way players of his era. The truth is they see this old worn down Kobe of the last 4 years or so who could care less about defense in his old age and pretend that's been his career.

The what have you done for me lately era in a nutshell.

catch24

01-14-2016, 01:19 PM

The mere fact ESPN didn't mention a single of his many all defensive Teams is proof the analytics community underrates his defense, yet if you look at the old link from 2008 they called him of the best two way players of his era. The truth is they see this old worn down Kobe of the last 4 years or so who could care less about defense in his old age and pretend that's been his career.

The what have you done for me lately era in a nutshell.

Exactly.

One of those metrics has prime Kobe as a "net negative" on defense. Funny enough, that same metric also claims prime Dirk is a higher defensive impact player than Wade in his prime lol

Analytics :bowdown:

ShawkFactory

01-14-2016, 01:22 PM

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 01:23 PM

Exactly.

One of those metrics has prime Kobe as a "net negative" on defense. Funny enough, that same metric also claims prime Dirk is a higher defensive impact player than Wade in his prime lol

Analytics :bowdown:

:roll:

It's a shame how such unreliable sources have become the end all be all in these discussions. Half the time I think these guys just calculate the numbers and if Jordan or Wilt is at Top then the rest of the list is obviously legit.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 01:26 PM

No

Yup.

Only Wade stans would try to argue differently. Wade is no where near the passer and playmaker that Kobe is and the fact he had Lebron James running the offense for his last rings should tell you that. But I'm sure there's some advanced metric you're about to break out that suggests otherwise. :rolleyes:

ShawkFactory

01-14-2016, 01:35 PM

Yup.

Only Wade stans would try to argue differently. Wade is no where near the passer and playmaker that Kobe is and the fact he had Lebron James running the offense for his last rings should tell you that. But I'm sure there's some advanced metric you're about to break out that suggests otherwise. :rolleyes:
Well A) Lebron is a better playmaker than most POINT GUARDS...so of course Wade "had Lebron James run the offense". Kobe would have too. He said so himself.

B) Before joining Lebron, Wade had averaged 7 assists per game for his career. And that's not rounding up. He averaged 7.0 assists per game.

Don't need advanced metrics.

Bankaii

01-14-2016, 01:36 PM

I did bring that up, thanks for exposing the fact that you aren't reading what I wrote at all and are only focused on the fact that Kobe > Wade in all facets of Basketball aside from slashing and blocks as a 2 guard.

Other than that Kobe is a better scorer, playmaker, shooter, defender and better leader. Wade is good at taking a back seat which is one of the things highlighted by the ESPN writers in his ranking. :oldlol: :cheers:
No you didn't. You made a shit ton of excuses for Kobe.

You said that 06 Kobe had "one of the worst rosters in the NBA" and excused him losing in the first round by overrating the Suns and excluding that he lost with a 3-1 team led by a scoring handicapped gaurd.

For 09 Wade you said he had a worse team than 09 Kobe (duh) but didn't even mention the fact that his 2nd option was nowhere near as good as Kobe's, Odom.

Wade was better than Kobe at slashing, finishing, playmaking, passing, blocking shots, and scoring on better efficiency.
Defense is a wash in 09.
Kobe is a better shooter, that's it.

Last time I checked Kobe was Shaq's sidekick, but Shaq was Wade's sidekick.:roll:

Bankaii

01-14-2016, 01:38 PM

catch24

01-14-2016, 01:42 PM

What did his head coach say about his defense?

Nothing negative those years he supposedly played "zero defense".

You don't get awarded these defensive honors from coaches just because of "hype".

Kobe didn't deserve them after leaving his prime, but there were years before that he was a MONSTER on defense.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 01:42 PM

Anyone else think Mitch Richmound got slighted big time here? He was one of the Top SG's in MJ's era.

Legends66NBA7

01-14-2016, 01:45 PM

Only Wade stans would try to argue differently. Wade is no where near the passer and playmaker that Kobe is

Not a Wade stan and what you're saying is hyperbole.

Wade was a point guard in Marquette and was coming into the league as one. They were a lot comparisons to him and Steve Francis. He always had PG instincts to pass and playmake at an elite level if called upon.

He's one of the greatest playmakers and passers overall the league as seen at the SG spot. The only issue was his turnovers, but he usually made it up with higher assists and scoring at a high level too.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 01:46 PM

Nothing negative those years he supposedly played "zero defense".

You don't get awarded these defensive honors from coaches just because of "hype".

Kobe didn't deserve them after leaving his prime, but there were years before that he was a MONSTER on defense.

If Kobe was still getting all defensive Teams post 2010, he didn't deserve them.

But boy do people forget when he single handedly shut down Westbrook in the 2010 playoff series with the Thunder , who was absolutely torching us until Kobe told PHil he would guard him. All they wanna remember is Pau's tip in, no matter how amazing it was.

Defense comes first though. :lol

Legends66NBA7

01-14-2016, 01:46 PM

Anyone else think Mitch Richmound got slighted big time here? He was one of the Top SG's in MJ's era.

Underrated, but not much playoff success and was usually on bad teams. Hard to rank him. It's like trying to rank a guy like Joe Johnson sorta.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 01:49 PM

Not a Wade stan and what you're saying is hyperbole.

Wade was a point guard in Marquette and was coming into the league as one. They were a lot comparisons to him and Steve Francis. He always had PG instincts to pass and playmake at an elite level if called upon.

He's one of the greatest playmakers and passers overall the league as seen at the SG spot. The only issue was his turnovers, but he usually made it up with higher assists and scoring at a high level too.

Did you just compare College Basketball to the pros? :biggums:

I'm not saying he was bad playmaker, that's the problem with this place, just because I'm saying Kobe was the way better playmaker doesn't mean Wade is garbage, he's just not the playmaker Kobe and Lebron are.

Some of Kobe's most famous and renown plays are his assists. Kobe to Shaq, Kobe to Pau, Kobe to Fish, Kobe to Horry, Kobe to Ron.

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 01:50 PM

Wade in 2009 was incredible. Arguably the best regular-season from a SG since Jordan...however Kobe's 2006 regular-season is too AND he played better in the playoffs that year.

How is Kobe's '06 Regular Season on par with Wade's? Wade was a much better Playmaker & Defender.

Not sure why these revisionists think they can claim Kobe played "zero defense" in 2006 or 2007, when his own assistant coach called him one of the best on that end. :oldlol:

Kobe wasn't Elite Defensively that year. Even if you consider his defense "Elite" it wasn't on Wade's level.

That Kobe making undeserved all defensive teams in 2010 and 2011 is the standard here.

He deserved his selection in '09 over CP3 & Wade? How about his '12 2nd Team?

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 01:51 PM

in 2008 Kobe definitely gave effort on defense.. and as far as bold goes there's no "definite" about a bunch of RS stats and losing to the hawks in the first round either.

I love how Kobe fans cling to the Heat losing to the Hawks. Literally the only reason the Heat stood a chance was because of Wade's incredible play, outside of that anybody who actually watched the Heat vs Atl that year would know they had Miami's number.

Wade fans are something else.. your boy had shaq when he was still getting MVP votes

That was literally in '05 only. In '06 Shaq wasn't even Top 10 in Votes.

peak Lebron/Bosh in a garbage conference.. yet he only has 3 rings and 1 fmvp to show for it..

What series did Shaq have equivalent to Bron's '11 Finals? What Finals series did Shaq have like that?

Kobe had similar career arc, stacked team, to poor team, to somewhat stacked team, yet came out with 5 and 2.

Their Career arcs aren't the same at all. Kobe had Prime Shaq/Peak Shaq for 8 Years. That's double the time Wade spent with Bron/Bosh.

He then Had a bad team for 3 years and another Elite Team for another 6 years.

That's 14 Years with a good squad compared to Wade who has had 6 years with a good squad (7 if you include this year).

Wade has also won with less help than Kobe ever has.

Wade's like a lite version of what Kobe did. He's Kobe's Clyde. But I guess you can hang your hats on this mythical 09 regular season.

Stop it with BS.

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 01:52 PM

catch24

01-14-2016, 01:52 PM

If Kobe was still getting all defensive Teams post 2010, he didn't deserve them.

But boy do people forget when he single handedly shut down Westbrook in the 2010 playoff series with the Thunder , who was absolutely torching us until Kobe told PHil he would guard him. All they wanna remember is Pau's tip in, no matter how amazing it was.

Defense comes first though. :lol

I still wouldn't put him ahead of Wade on defense that year, but you're right. The series vs OKC where dude put the clamps on Westbrook is legendary, and prior to Kobe defending him, Goatbrook phucking dominated us.

Doesn't get talked about though because Kobe never actually played defense. :sleeping

Legends66NBA7

01-14-2016, 01:55 PM

Did you just compare College Basketball to the pros? :biggums:

I'm not saying he was bad playmaker, that's the problem with this place, just because I'm saying Kobe was the way better playmaker doesn't mean Wade is garbage, he's just not the playmaker Kobe and Lebron are.

No, I didn't compare college to the pros. I'm saying Wade was more of natural PG before he bulked up and started to play more SG. He was always going have those type of instincts to playmake and see the court like a PG if called upon.

And I know you didn't say he was a bad playmaker. Saying he's not on the same playmaker as Kobe and LeBron is hyperbole and flat out wrong. He's not only on that level, you can argue he's over Kobe and perhaps even LeBron as well. There's absolutely nothing to suggest he isn't on the same level.

catch24

01-14-2016, 01:57 PM

How is Kobe's '06 Regular Season on par with Wade's? Wade was a much better Playmaker & Defender.

Nah

Wade in 2009 was definitely a better defender, but nothing you're suggesting here is "much better" except for Kobe's scoring ability.

I watched Wade that entire season, and dude is one of my favorite players along with Kobe. Even used to post his recaps that I edited for ISH...he and Kobe are definitely close when you take the playoffs into account.

ClipperRevival

01-14-2016, 01:58 PM

I still wouldn't put him ahead of Wade on defense that year, but you're right. The series vs OKC where dude put the clamps on Westbrook is legendary, and prior to Kobe defending him, Goatbrook phucking dominated us.

Doesn't get talked about though because Kobe never actually played defense. :sleeping

"Legendary"? :roll:

Come on man. That was WB's 2nd year in the league and he wasn't even close to being the player he is today.

And he didn't exactly shut down WB in that series:

20.5 PPG, 47% FG, 6.0 RPG, 6.0 APG, 24.3 PER

OKC was just a very young and inexperienced team facing the defending champs. They weren't ready to win and didn't know how to win.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 02:01 PM

No, I didn't compare college to the pros. I'm saying Wade was more of natural PG before he bulked up and started to play more SG. He was always going have those type of instincts to playmake and see the court like a PG if called upon.

And I know you didn't say he was a bad playmaker. Saying he's not on the same playmaker as Kobe and LeBron is hyperbole and flat out wrong. He's not only on that level, you can argue he's over Kobe and perhaps even LeBron as well. There's absolutely nothing to suggest he isn't on the same level.

:oldlol:

catch24

01-14-2016, 02:02 PM

"Legendary"? :roll:

Come on man. That was WB's 2nd year in the league and he wasn't even close to being the player he is today.

And he didn't exactly shut down WB in that series:

20.5 PPG, 47% FG, 6.0 RPG, 6.0 APG, 24.3 PER

OKC was just a very young and inexperienced team facing the defending champs.

Some hyperbole on my part, but Kobe took that assignment with a phucked up knee (needed to be drained after every game), and Westbrook was KILLING us before that.

We had no answers for him until Kobe locked him up.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 02:03 PM

This n*gga is picking Kobe's playmaking because some of his best highlights are passes.

Wade's playmaking > Kobe's playmaking.

Based on what? Ya'll not proving me wrong in any way except saying Wade is better.

Now we're gonna pretend like he may be better than Lebron at playmaking, lol

Wade stanleys or not, this is some funny shit I'm reading in this thread.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 02:04 PM

Some hyperbole on my part, but Kobe took that assignment with a phucked up knee (needed to be drained after every game), and Westbrook was KILLING us before that.

We had no answers for him until Kobe locked him up.

You shouldn't have to explain yourself, of course Goatbrook was going off in that series....Before old man Kobe shut him down. That's a fact they can't refute.

ShawkFactory

01-14-2016, 02:04 PM

Based on what? Ya'll not proving me wrong in any way except saying Wade is better.

Now we're gonna pretend like he may be better than Lebron at playmaking, lol

Wade stanleys or not, this is some funny shit I'm reading in this thread.
Dude average 7 assists per game for his career before joining Lebron.

Legends66NBA7

01-14-2016, 02:07 PM

:oldlol:

:oldlol:

ClipperRevival

01-14-2016, 02:07 PM

Some hyperbole on my part, but Kobe took that assignment with a phucked up knee (needed to be drained after every game), and Westbrook was KILLING us before that.

We had no answers for him until Kobe locked him up.

Kobe played solid D but nothing compared to "legendary". OKC was a young and inexperienced that didn't know how to win yet. If Kobe had done that to a current version of WB, that would carry so much more weight. But I saw every play of that series intently and it was very good D, not "legendary" or even great. WB was still very raw then.

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 02:07 PM

Nah

Wade in 2009 was definitely a better defender, but nothing you're suggesting here is "much better" except for Kobe's scoring ability.

I watched Wade that entire season, and dude is one of my favorite players along with Kobe. Even used to post his recaps that I edited for ISH...he and Kobe are definitely close when you take the playoffs into account.

Wade is a better Playmaker and he still put up 30 points on 49% shooting. He also had the worst team.

Everybody is always here talking about "he lost to the Hawks" but Wade didn't play that bad in the Playoffs and the Hawks had the Heat's number the entire year.

Legends66NBA7

01-14-2016, 02:08 PM

Based on what? Ya'll not proving me wrong in any way except saying Wade is better.

Neither are you proving anyone else wrong by saying he's not on Kobe's level.

tpols

01-14-2016, 02:09 PM

Their Career arcs aren't the same at all. .

Sure they are..

Wade had a 20/10 Shaq for two years, and before that a deep team where he was only the third leading scorer on a playoff team (albeit out east).. He had 3-4 down years in terms of help.. And then he paired w/ Lebron James and Chris Bosh in a historically awful conference.

Compared to Kobe who yes had more help to start, had a similar down period in between 05 til partially through 08.. and then got Pau and Odom in a slightly above average conference, and while they were very nice, there's no wade caliber in either, and Bosh is equal or better third option.. and again the conference.

Kobe had his big help at the beginning, Wade at the end..

You say when did Shaq fail like Lebron did? You mustve missed the late 90s... because getting swept out of the playoffs was a specialty of his.

And Id like to ask, when did Kobe fail w/ Shaq like Wade did w/ Bron..? for whole playoff runs, and at an age where Kobe was still putting up monster performances? Some of Wade's performances would make even 04 Kobe blush a little bit.

Fact is, Kobe's game is less athleticism based, less contact and ref based than Wade's is. It's skill based, with athleticism only an enhancement, rather than something that needs to be depended on. Which is why Kobe kept his at a higher level for longer and won more than Wade, despite similar levels of help.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 02:09 PM

Dude average 7 assists per game for his career before joining Lebron.

That's cool, again I'm not saying Wade is a bad playmaker. Has he averaged almost 10 assts for an entire playoff series like Kobe did vs Phoenix in 2010?

catch24

01-14-2016, 02:09 PM

You shouldn't have to explain yourself, of course Goatbrook was going off in that series....Before old man Kobe shut him down. That's a fact they can't refute.

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/columns/story?id=5142900

As you can see, dude took the assignment in Games 5 and 6

Westbrook literally went from:

22/7/5 on 55% shooting

to

18/8/5 on 33% shooting

:bowdown:

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 02:10 PM

Neither are you proving anyone else wrong by saying he's not on Kobe's level.

You just said he's possibly better than Leborn. Retire.

You're arguing for the sake of argument at that point. Go get a soda.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 02:12 PM

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/columns/story?id=5142900

As you can see, dude took the assignment in Games 5 and 6

Westbrook literally went from:

22/7/5 on 55% shooting

to

18/8/5 on 33% shooting

:bowdown:

Most underrated defending Superstar at this point. :applause:

Ni99as really forget D was Kobe's bread and butter aside from offense.

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 02:12 PM

That's cool, again I'm not saying Wade is a bad playmaker. Has he averaged almost 10 assts for an entire playoff series like Kobe did vs Phoenix in 2010?

Wade averaged 8.8 Assists vs the Nets in '05 & 8 exactly vs the Wizards in '05.

Know your shit before you post.

catch24

01-14-2016, 02:14 PM

Kobe played solid D but nothing compared to "legendary". OKC was a young and inexperienced that didn't know how to win yet. If Kobe had done that to a current version of WB, that would carry so much more weight. But I saw every play of that series intently and it was very good D, not "legendary" or even great. WB was still very raw then.

It was great defense though. Don't see what Westbrook's age has to do with anything when he was murking us before Kobe (on one leg) held him to 33% shooting the rest of the series.

:confusedshrug:

ShawkFactory

01-14-2016, 02:15 PM

That's cool, again I'm not saying Wade is a bad playmaker. Has he averaged almost 10 assts for an entire playoff series like Kobe did vs Phoenix in 2010?
He averaged 8 a game. And Phoenix was the 3rd fastest paced and 4th worst defensive team in the league.

Wade has averaged 8 assists a game for 2 entire seasons.

Legends66NBA7

01-14-2016, 02:17 PM

You just said he's possibly better than Leborn.

Saying perhaps isn't the same thing as possibly.

Thinking about it, LeBron probably is the better passer compared to Wade and Kobe, he was an elite playmaker and was even compared to Magic coming into the league.

That still doesn't change the fact that Wade is no where near the level of Kobe. That's not arguing for the sake of arguing. All I got is an emoticon response and now this.

So I'll take it nobody here can state Wade isn't no where from Kobe, perhaps not LeBron, but he isn't far away either.

ClipperRevival

01-14-2016, 02:17 PM

It was great defense though. Don't see what Westbrook's age has to do with anything when he was murking us before Kobe on an injured leg held him to 33% shooting the rest of the series.

:confusedshrug:

Well, consider who was guarding him BEFORE Kobe? Fish. One of THE worst defenders ever to play the PG position at that time when he was 36. ANYONE would've done a better job.

And age matters because he was still raw, meaning his skills and bball weren't as refined.

catch24

01-14-2016, 02:19 PM

Well, consider who was guarding him BEFORE Kobe? Fish. One of THE worst defenders ever to play the PG position at that time when he was 36. ANYONE would've done a better job.

And age matters because he was still raw, meaning his skills and bball weren't as refined.

Of course, but LA could only play what they were dealt with.

I just don't see how Kobe shutting down somebody that was killing us prior, isn't considered "great defense".

Using age just seems like a convenient excuse, especially against someone who practically played on one leg.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 02:20 PM

He averaged 8 a game. And Phoenix was the 3rd fastest paced and 4th worst defensive team in the league.

Wade has averaged 8 assists a game for 2 entire seasons.

Wade averaged 8.8 Assists vs the Nets in '05 & 8 exactly vs the Wizards in '05.

Know your shit before you post.

That's impressive, most impressive. I didn't know that but I still don't think he was the better playmaker than Kobe, much less Lebron James. :biggums:

ClipperRevival

01-14-2016, 02:22 PM

Of course, but LA could only play what they were dealt with.

I just don't see how Kobe shutting down somebody that was killing us prior, isn't considered "great defense".

Using age just seems like a convenient excuse, especially against someone who practically played on one leg.

It was very good D in stretches but again, when you are that young, you don't know how to fully maximize your talents against an older vet like Kobe. Of course age matters.

Take a guy like Andrew Wiggins, a 2nd year player. Is he a finished product? Of course not. His skills and bball iq will get better. He will know how to better attack defenders as he ages.

ShawkFactory

01-14-2016, 02:23 PM

That's impressive, most impressive. I didn't know that but I still don't think he was the better playmaker than Kobe, much less Lebron James. :biggums:
What's your reasoning though?

I mean if you think about it...Wade's style of play collapses a defense (thus leaving people open) more than Kobe's.

And Wade could find them beautifully.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 02:25 PM

Westbrook had already arrived by that point, at worst he was a top 10 or 11 player along with KD comfortably at number 3 behind Kobe or Lebron, which ever you prefer.

catch24

01-14-2016, 02:26 PM

It was very good D in stretches but again, when you are that young, you don't know how to fully maximize your talents against an older vet like Kobe. Of course age matters.

Take a guy like Andrew Wiggins, a 2nd year player. Is he a finished product? Of course not. His skills and bball iq will get better. He will know how to better attack defenders as he ages.

I think it evens out vs someone that wasn't anywhere near 100%.

Age had no bearing on any other Laker player, even Ron Artest, who the Lakers tried putting on Westbrook and got torched.

Not giving Kobe credit save for "stretches", and calling it anything but great defense sounds dumb as hell. Sorry man.

Agree to disagree

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 02:26 PM

What's your reasoning though?

I mean if you think about it...Wade's style of play collapses a defense (thus leaving people open) more than Kobe's.

And Wade could find them beautifully.

Let's not get into aesthetics now...We know who wins that contest. Ive just watched Kobe for longer and Ive seen what he can do to an offense when he focuses completely on passing.

Ni99a had a 17 asst game vs the Cavs just last year, higher assist total than LBJ or Wade ever had.

ClipperRevival

01-14-2016, 02:29 PM

Westbrook had already arrived by that point, at worst he was a top 10 or 11 player along with KD comfortably at number 3 behind Kobe or Lebron, which ever you prefer.

Now you're just being a biased Kobe fan and distorting reality.

WB's stats his first 2 years in the league:

15.7 PPG, 4.9 RPG, 6.6 APG, 41% FG, 16.5 PER

He was considered a very promising young player but top 10 or 11? Come on bro.

aj1987

01-14-2016, 02:32 PM

Wade had a 20/10 Shaq for two years, and before that a deep team where he was only the third leading scorer on a playoff team (albeit out east).. He had 3-4 down years in terms of help.. And then he paired w/ Lebron James and Chris Bosh in a historically awful conference.
20/10 Shaq? Kobe had prime/peak Shaq since his rookie year. 20/4. That's how many MORE points and rebounds Shaq averaged with Kobe (in the 3 Finals) compared to the Heat stint. Shaq was a 27/12/3/3 on 58% with Kobe. 19/9/2/2 on 60% with the Heat. Shaw was not even close to being what the actually was. A monster.

Not only that, Shaq averaged 28/13/3/3 on 56% in the PO's with the Lakers and 19/9/2/2 on 59% on the Heat.

Sure, Wade had LeBron and Bosh, but he basically had them for only 2 healthy seasons. In his 12th season, you saw what happened. Kobe had more help than Wade for more season than Wade has been in the league. Give Wade prime/peak Shaq for the first 8 seasons of his career, and he'd give your team 3+ rings.

Also, SMDH at the idiots on here saying that Kobe is a better playmaker/passer than Wade. Please stop posting and never watch basketball again.

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 02:34 PM

Now you're just being a biased Kobe fan and distorting reality.

WB's stats his first 2 years in the league:

15.7 PPG, 4.9 RPG, 6.6 APG, 41% FG, 16.5 PER

He was considered a very promising young player but top 10 or 11? Come on bro.

Hey, if a guy on a bum knee locking down a young stud going off against a defending champion Lakers is "nothing special" then by the same token that was only one season removed from WB's emergence as a Top guard in this league. :confusedshrug:

You guys need to learn to take what you dish out how it pertains to hyperbole. Kobe's defense was never anything special yet you have instances in his career where he's completely locked down guys. All the talk about 6 for 24 , but go look at Ray Allen's shooting numbers during that game. That was because of Kobe and just great Team defense in general.

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 02:44 PM

Sure they are..

Wade had a 20/10 Shaq for two years, and before that a deep team where he was only the third leading scorer on a playoff team (albeit out east).. He had 3-4 down years in terms of help.. And then he paired w/ Lebron James and Chris Bosh in a historically awful conference.

His numbers dipped in the Playoffs. In '05 he put up 19 & 8 and in '06 it was 18 & 9.

Wade lead the '04 Heat in scoring & assists in the Playoffs.

Why do you keep saying out East as if it was weak Wade's entire Career? From '04-'06 there were 2 Contenders (Indy, Miami, Detroit) and usually another solid team (Nets, Wiz). Plus the East has Elite Defensive Teams. The '04 Hornets & '05 Wiz were the only teams he faced that weren't a Top 10 Defense.

The East wasn't weak in '11. I do agree agree from '12-'14 it was weak.

Compared to Kobe who yes had more help to start, had a similar down period in between 05 til partially through 08.. and then got Pau and Odom in a slightly above average conference, and while they were very nice, there's no wade caliber in either, and Bosh is equal or better third option.. and again the conference.

Kobe had his big help at the beginning, Wade at the end..

You're not comparing their years with help. Like I said Kobe has 14 years with Elite Teams compared to 6-7 for Wade. Even if we use their 1st 13 years, Kobe had a Contender for 10 of those years.

You say when did Shaq fail like Lebron did? You mustve missed the late 90s... because getting swept out of the playoffs was a specialty of his.

He was still playing pretty good in those series. That still doesn't answer the question, What series did he have equivalent to Bron's '11 Finals?

And Id like to ask, when did Kobe fail w/ Shaq like Wade did w/ Bron..? for whole playoff runs, and at an age where Kobe was still putting up monster performances? Some of Wade's performances would make even 04 Kobe blush a little bit.

The only year you could say he "failed" with Bron was the '13 Playoffs and that was clearly because of the bone bruise he suffered before the Playoffs.

Fact is, Kobe's game is less athleticism based, less contact and ref based than Wade's is. It's skill based, with athleticism only an enhancement, rather than something that needs to be depended on. Which is why Kobe kept his at a higher level for longer and won more than Wade, despite similar levels of help.

:oldlol:

This is hilarious. It's not like Wade improved his midrange, it's not like in '11 he started going to the post, it's not like he changed his game around as he got older.

I already addressed their help.

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 02:47 PM

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 02:49 PM

That's literally 1 more assist than Wade's Career high.

You had to look that up. No pts :oldlol:

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 02:54 PM

You had to look that up. No pts :oldlol:

No I didn't. He got that number vs the Suns back during the 08-09 Season (while dropping 35) and tied it a couple of Games later.

What points should I make? Your argument for Kobe being a better playmaker is because his Career high Assists in 1 Game is higher than Wade's by 1 :oldlol:

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 02:55 PM

No I didn't. He got that number vs the Suns back during the 08-09 Season (while dropping 35) and tied it a couple of Games later.

What points should I make? Your argument for Kobe being a better playmaker is because his Career high Assists in 1 Game is higher than Wade's :oldlol:

That's my entire argument or a off hand comment I mentioned? While you and the other Wade stans are in here melting down because nationally Wade isn't even better at his position than a 1 for 9 Finals loser in Jerry West. :roll:

aj1987

01-14-2016, 02:58 PM

That's literally 1 more assist than Wade's Career high.
I think it's best to ignore him. The dude has too much of Kobe's juice coving his face to see properly.

Kobe a better passer/playmaker than Wade?!? :roll: :roll: :roll:

I think you should just post Wade's month long stretches from '08, '05, '09, etc.. IIRC, dude was putting up 38/7/11 on 65% TS during that stretch in '09. Similar ones in other seasons (with a bit less scoring).

catch24

01-14-2016, 03:03 PM

Wade is a better playmaker than Kobe, I agree.

The disparity isn't huge or anything but still pretty clear.

If anybody wants to watch Kobe's passing/playmaking abilities on full display, checkout his 2000-2001 and 2008 playoff runs. Dude will find a seemingly cutoff angle, and then practically spoon feed a teammate for an easy basket. Just amazing awareness and skill.

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 03:05 PM

That's my entire argument or a off hand comment I mentioned? While you and the other Wade stans are in here melting down because nationally Wade isn't even better at his position than a 1 for 9 Finals loser in Jerry West. :roll:

Your other argument was Kobe averaging 8 Assists vs the Suns in the '10 Conference Finals which quickly got shut down :oldlol:

I didn't care at all about this list. I only posted in this thread because of your original ridiculous post about Peak Wade vs Peak Kobe.

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 03:11 PM

I think it's best to ignore him. The dude has too much of Kobe's juice coving his face to see properly.

That's what I'm going to start doing.

Kobe a better passer/playmaker than Wade?!? :roll: :roll: :roll:

I think you should just post Wade's month long stretches from '08, '05, '09, etc.. IIRC, dude was putting up 38/7/11 on 65% TS during that stretch in '09. Similar ones in other seasons (with a bit less scoring).

In '09 he had month putting up 37/6/10 on 66%TS, he scored 37 points on 55% shooting and averaged 10 assists. Kobe stans praise Kobe's months averaging 40 yet Wade put up 37 on 55% shooting and he murdered Elite Defenses that year.

The 2nd half of that Season he put 31/5/8 on 51% shooting.

ShawkFactory

01-14-2016, 03:12 PM

Let's not get into aesthetics now...We know who wins that contest. Ive just watched Kobe for longer and Ive seen what he can do to an offense when he focuses completely on passing.

Ni99a had a 17 asst game vs the Cavs just last year, higher assist total than LBJ or Wade ever had.
The 'beautiful' was meant to be more about Wade's effectiveness in finding open men more than his aesthetic ability to.

It seems like it's one or the other with Kobe. Of course he is capable of high assists games and great playmaking, but it seems like its always at the expensive of his own offensive game.

From 06-10, when Kobe had 10 or more assists in a game (22 games), he averaged 24 PPG. Only scored 30 or more in 5 of those.

Well below his average of 29.8 PPG in that span.

Wade from 06-10 when he had 10 or more assists (61 games): 29.6 PPG. Scored 30 or more 31 times.

This is compared to his average of 27.4 over that span.

Wade's playmaking just comes more naturally overall to him and in the flow of his offense.

I'm sure Lebron's will be the same. I'll do his soon.

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 03:13 PM

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 03:15 PM

The 'beautiful' was meant to be more about Wade's effectiveness in finding open men more than his aesthetic ability to.

It seems like it's one of the other with Kobe. Of course he is capable of high assists games and great playmaking, but it seems like its always at the expensive of his own offensive game.

From 06-10, when Kobe had 10 or more assists per game (22 games), he averaged 24 PPG. Only scored 30 or more in 5 of those.

Well below his average of over 29.8 PPG in that span.

Wade from 06-10 when he had 10 or more assists (61 games): 29.6 PPG. Scored 30 or more 31 times.

This is compared to his average of 27.4 over that span.

Wade's playmaking just comes more naturally overall to him and in the flow of his offense.

I'm sure Lebron's will be the same. I'll do his soon.

:applause: :applause:

catch24

01-14-2016, 03:18 PM

Man.. I miss that Wade from 2009 and 2010. So masterful. He and Kobe were my favorite players in the league :bowdown:

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 03:28 PM

Man.. I miss that Wade from 2009 and 2010. So masterful. He and Kobe were my favorite players in the league :bowdown:

Glad I got to witness these guys at their best :bowdown:

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 03:39 PM

The 'beautiful' was meant to be more about Wade's effectiveness in finding open men more than his aesthetic ability to.

It seems like it's one or the other with Kobe. Of course he is capable of high assists games and great playmaking, but it seems like its always at the expensive of his own offensive game.

From 06-10, when Kobe had 10 or more assists in a game (22 games), he averaged 24 PPG. Only scored 30 or more in 5 of those.

Well below his average of 29.8 PPG in that span.

Wade from 06-10 when he had 10 or more assists (61 games): 29.6 PPG. Scored 30 or more 31 times.

This is compared to his average of 27.4 over that span.

Wade's playmaking just comes more naturally overall to him and in the flow of his offense.

I'm sure Lebron's will be the same. I'll do his soon.

Lebron being the superior playmaker to both shouldn't even be a question imo.

tpols

01-14-2016, 03:41 PM

You're not comparing their years with help. Like I said Kobe has 14 years with Elite Teams compared to 6-7 for Wade. Even if we use their 1st 13 years, Kobe had a Contender for 10 of those years.
.

..... For Kobe's prime, 01-10 he had seven teams capable of taking to a ring.

For Wade's prime, 05-12 he had four teams, BUT there's no reason Wade's prime should've been that short.. other than the fact that his reckless playstyle is unsustainable. If he had superior skill, and a more patient cerebral game perhaps his longevity would be better and we would be able to count 13 and 14 as prime years.. in which case their years with elite help would line up perfectly, especially given the disparity in conferences. *

*ie Lebron and Bosh vs cupcake Chicago and Indiana teams is greater help than Shaq vs Sacaramento powerhouse, twin towers SAS, Portland etc

If Wade had more of a "Kobe" game he wouldn't be shitting the bed at age 31, with not even close to the same mileage on his legs as Kobe had.. We all know Kobe at the same age was dropping 35 ppg bombs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyCysXZnahk) in his WCF's and 30 ppg averages for playoff runs, while Wade was putting up paltry numbers in the mid to high teens on shit efficiency.

Theres no way you can spin Wade over Kobe... there's literally no argument. "He played with Shaq!" Yea Wade played with fking Lebron in a much worse conference. That argument doesn't even work.

dankok8

01-14-2016, 03:47 PM

That's a very respectable list...

HOoopCityJones

01-14-2016, 03:51 PM

IF Wade is a better playmaker, defender and easier scorer than Kobe, why did the the most biased sports outlet full of guys who would love to see Kobe burn rank him AND Jerry West in front of Wade of all people? Who in my opinion is the clear cut 3rd best SG of all time.

If this guy is such a more well rounded player than Kobe why is he barley cracking Top 25 on most people's list instead of in that Top10-11 range like Bryant?

They've had the same amount of help imo, similar stats at their peak so in Wade fans opinion I wanna know why you think people give Kobe the edge, time and time again, even Wade himself? Kobe's also been an MVP in this league while Wade has played with many MVP caliber Teammates at his best. In Shaq and Lebron.

ShawkFactory

01-14-2016, 04:05 PM

Lebron in his 79 games with 10 or more assists from 09-13 (took his best 5 years since its up against Kobe and Wade's best): 25.6 PPG. 30 or more 25 times.

Averaged 27.7 overall in that span.

aj1987

01-14-2016, 04:25 PM

Ugh. The retarded arguments in this threads. Wade? Throw all context out of the window. Kobe? Context comes into play. Injuries, team strength, and other stuff matter.

:facepalm :facepalm

tpols

01-14-2016, 04:36 PM

Sure, Wade had LeBron and Bosh, but he basically had them for only 2 healthy seasons.

this has already been addressed..

Im not going to give Wade a pass for playing with a peak Lebron, because of injuries.. when Kobe too had lots of knee and finger problems, specifically in 2010 when he was the same age as a falling off Wade but with more mileage, and where his athleticism was a shell of what it was the previous two years, BUT Kobe was still able to compensate and play through them to the tune of 30/6/5... meanwhile Wade could barely put up ancient clyde Drexler numbers at the same age. What does that speak to? Their help.. or themselves?

Hilarious.

Now multiple years of playing with Lebron doesn't count as help because Wade prematurely started to suck.

Wade winning 3 chips in a row is also another funny proposition.. a guy that's made of glass, and who plays like hes made of steel, who has completely broken down after long playoff runs, is all of a sudden going to have the durability and stamina to 3 peat. That's a good one.

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 04:41 PM

..... For Kobe's prime, 01-10 he had seven teams capable of taking to a ring.

For Wade's prime, 05-12 he had four teams, BUT there's no reason Wade's prime should've been that short..

You listed 10 years for Kobe & 8 for Wade. That's a 2 year Difference.

other than the fact that his reckless playstyle is unsustainable. If he had superior skill, and a more patient cerebral game perhaps his longevity would be better and we would be able to count 13 and 14 as prime years.. in which case their years with elite help would line up perfectly, especially given the disparity in conferences. *

Wade's playstyle has nothing to do with his major injuries throughout his Career.

In the '05 Conference Finals he hurt his rib on a jumpshot.
In '07 he separated his shoulder defending a pass.
He hasn't had his meniscus his whole Career.

Even if you want to play that card, that would have given Wade 6 Contenders in his Prime while Kobe had 7 and Kobe got a ring pre-prime.

*ie Lebron and Bosh vs cupcake Chicago and Indiana teams is greater help than Shaq vs Sacaramento powerhouse, twin towers SAS, Portland etc

Twin Towers S.A? In 2001 David Robinson put up 14 points on 41%(though he did grab 11 boards). In 2002 Robinson put up 6 & 7.

The Bulls were a good team in '11, they won 62 Games (best record in the League) and were the best defense in the League.

If Wade had more of a "Kobe" game he wouldn't be shitting the bed at age 31, with not even close to the same mileage on his legs as Kobe had.. We all know Kobe at the same age was dropping 35 ppg bombs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyCysXZnahk) in his WCF's and 30 ppg averages for playoff runs, while Wade was putting up paltry numbers in the mid to high teens on shit efficiency.

Wade got hurt right before the Playoffs playing with 3 deep brone bruises and he was a 2nd option. At 31, Wade played more off-ball, went to the post a lot more, he had already changed his game.

Theres no way you can spin Wade over Kobe... there's literally no argument. "He played with Shaq!" Yea Wade played with fking Lebron in a much worse conference. That argument doesn't even work.

The whole argument was that they had equal help. You literally acknowledged Shaq but ignore Kobe's help from '07-'13. That's 14 years of being on a contender while Wade is in his 13th Season. Wade had Bron for 4 years while Kobe had Shaq for 8. He also won with less help than Kobe has ever won with :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 04:43 PM

tpols

01-14-2016, 04:52 PM

He was healthy from '08'-'12 and could've easily played through deep Playoff Runs those years.

BS..

Wade was a shell by 2013 playoffs.. after two long playoff runs, the only time in his career hes ever had back to back Finals trips, and he was done heading into the third trip. He needed injections just to have 1 or 2 good games.

He was heathy 08-12.. well yea, he wasn't facing near the physical stress those years because there were no long playoff runs for more than half that time period. Once those long runs started to take toll.. like they did in 11 and 12, the man was finished as a MVP candidate level player, and could not keep it up.

After long 05 and 06 playoff runs, the buildup was also evident and he started to get hurt. It's amazing you don't see these patterns and think a guy like Wade can last those beatings with his style of play, running into defenders, falling to the ground all the time, begging the refs.. all these "freak" injuries are really just an accumulation of taking more hits, absorbing more impact, breaking down structure little by little until something catastrophic happens

aj1987

01-14-2016, 05:11 PM

this has already been addressed..

Im not going to give Wade a pass for playing with a peak Lebron, because of injuries.. when Kobe too had lots of knee and finger problems, specifically in 2010 when he was the same age as a falling off Wade but with more mileage, and where his athleticism was a shell of what it was the previous two years, BUT Kobe was still able to compensate and play through them to the tune of 30/6/5... meanwhile Wade could barely put up ancient clyde Drexler numbers at the same age. What does that speak to? Their help.. or themselves?
The **** are you talking about Wade Missed a shit ton of games and even missed time in the PO's. Dude has/had completely messed up knees. You know, the kind of injures which prevent you from having any sort of decent movement or elevation. If you can't use that excuse, then Kobe failed to win with 3 HOF'ers (including a 2x MVP and a 3x DPOY), a 1x DPOY, and an All-Star SF. Dude failed to win with 3 HOF'ers in '04 as well.

Now multiple years of playing with Lebron doesn't count as help because Wade prematurely started to suck.
Suck? Dude on completely messed up knees was killing it in the '12 PO's. Did you even watch the '13 Finals?

Wade winning 3 chips in a row is also another funny proposition.. a guy that's made of glass, and who plays like hes made of steel, who has completely broken down after long playoff runs, is all of a sudden going to have the durability and stamina to 3 peat. That's a good one.
You do know that even if Wade has the same injury history, the Heat win 3 or more rings with Shaq from '04-'11, right? 8 seasons. The same as Kobe.

'05 - Ring ('98 Shaq)
'06 - Ring ('99 Shaq)
'07 - Wade injured ('00 Shaq)
'08 - Wade injured ('01 Shaq)
'09 - Ring ('02 Shaq)
'10 - Wade injured; just so you don't throw a hissy fit (03 Shaq)
'11 - Ring ('04 Shaq)

At WORST, lets say that Wade is injured in '11 as well, and doesn't win a ring. He still could've hypothetically won 3 rings...again, at WORST.

Now, lets say he has shit for teammates during the '12 and '13 seasons and is mostly injured and missed the PO's. From '14 onwards, he again has a "semi-stacked" (I think it was you, who said the '08-10 Lakers were "semi-stacked"?) teams. Due to him missing PO's, don't you think he's be relatively healthy in '14 and '15 to win on a semi-stacked team?

Again, at WORST, by the '15 season, Wade has 3 rings. The SAME as Kobe and Kobe came into the league like 4 years before Wade.

chazzy

01-14-2016, 05:27 PM

05 Wade got hurt in the playoffs.. And 09 Wade had back spasms in the first round

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 05:38 PM

BS..

Wade was a shell by 2013 playoffs.. after two long playoff runs, the only time in his career hes ever had back to back Finals trips, and he was done heading into the third trip. He needed injections just to have 1 or 2 good games.

For like the 5th time, he suffered the 3 deep bone bruises right before the Playoffs.

Spo played him less minutes in '10 because of the toll and carrying his teammates in '09. You don't think they can do the same with long Playoff Runs to manage him better?

He was heathy 08-12.. well yea, he wasn't facing near the physical stress those years because there were no long playoff runs for more than half that time period. Once those long runs started to take toll.. like they did in 11 and 12, the man was finished as a MVP candidate level player, and could not keep it up.

He was dominating during the Win Streak and played great in the '13 Regular Season while being a 2nd option. As a 1st option on a good team he could've easily still been an MVP caliber player that year.

After long 05 and 06 playoff runs, the buildup was also evident and he started to get hurt. It's amazing you don't see these patterns and think a guy like Wade can last those beatings with his style of play, running into defenders, falling to the ground all the time, begging the refs.. all these "freak" injuries are really just an accumulation of taking more hits, absorbing more impact, breaking down structure little by little until something catastrophic happens

This guy is making shit up now :oldlol:

He separated his shoulder defending a pass. This happened because he drove to the basket? He's had knee issues because of a surgery he had in College, this happened because he ran into defenders?

tpols

01-14-2016, 05:48 PM

For like the 5th time, he suffered the 3 deep bone bruises right before the Playoffs.

How does that take away from my point?

Me: Wade's body + style of play is not equipped for a 3peat. Example given, his broken down body in 2013 after his only B2B Finals runs.

You: I told you already, he had bone bruises.

:wtf:

You don't see the disconnect here? You're not refuting my point, you're basically making it for me.

This guy is making shit up now :oldlol:

He separated his shoulder defending a pass. This happened because he drove to the basket? He's had knee issues because of a surgery he had in College, this happened because he ran into defenders?

:facepalm

You're not reading what I wrote. Injuries are often a build up. How many times did Wade throw one of those shoulders into a big man or his defender? How many times did Wade come crashing down in the paint and slam into the ground?

It all adds up.

And eventually a tear or break or bruise can occur after repeated traumas.. why is that so hard to grasp, damn. whatever.. this isn't going anywhere.

aj1987

01-14-2016, 05:51 PM

05 Wade got hurt in the playoffs.. And 09 Wade had back spasms in the first round
Sure he did, but as we're discussing, if he had '98 Shaq and '02 Shaq, instead of '05 Shaq and garbage, you don't think he'd fare better. Especially considering the fact that he doesn't have to carry that much load on both sides of the court during the RS?

Wade's Rings

01-14-2016, 06:41 PM

How does that take away from my point?

Me: Wade's body + style of play is not equipped for a 3peat. Example given, his broken down body in 2013 after his only B2B Finals runs.

You: I told you already, he had bone bruises.

:wtf:

You don't see the disconnect here? You're not refuting my point, you're basically making it for me.

You're point was that his playstyle caused those injuries & he can't string together a 3-peat.

However by 31 and the 12-13 Season he played off-ball, posted up more, and improved his jumper and his Game had changed.

Him getting hurt was just unlucky not really having to do with his style play.

:facepalm

You're not reading what I wrote. Injuries are often a build up. How many times did Wade throw one of those shoulders into a big man or his defender? How many times did Wade come crashing down in the paint and slam into the ground?

It all adds up.

And eventually a tear or break or bruise can occur after repeated traumas.. why is that so hard to grasp, damn. whatever.. this isn't going anywhere.

So by his 2nd Season in '05 the damage had built up so much he hurt his rib? By his 4th Season the damage was so much he separated his shoulder?

Even then how would the rib injury be built up damage? His knees were because of his meniscus and he wasn't falling and landing on his knees.

:confusedshrug: