Better season: '06 Kobe RS/'09 Kobe playoffs or '09 Wade RS/'06 Wade playoffs

[SouBeachTalents]

What their season numbers/accolades would look like

Kobe
RS: 35/5/5 on 45%
PS: 30/5/6 on 46%
F: 32/6/7 on 43%

RS PER: 28.0
RS WS: 15.3

PS PER: 26.8
PS WS: 4.7

All-NBA First Team
All-Defensive First Team
4th in MVP voting
Finals MVP

Wade
RS: 30/5/8 on 49%
PS: 28/6/6 on 50%
F: 35/8/4 on 47%

RS PER: 30.4
RS WS: 14.7

PS PER: 26.9
PS WS: 4.8

All-NBA First Team
All-Defensive Second Team
3rd in MVP voting
3rd in DPOY voting
Finals MVP

[Bankaii]

I'd give the slight edge to Wade mostly due to his Finals play.
You really can't go wrong with either though.

My only problem with this is the All-NBA defense team is very misleading.
Kobe didn't deserve one in 06 (at least not 1st team), he didn't even try on defense.
On the other hand, Wade should've been 1st team All-D in 09, as shown by the DPOY voting.

[SuperPippen]

The stans and idiots from both sides will doubtless come along and claim that "it's not even close" in favor of their respective *********ory fantasies. Pure bullsh*t. These are two legendary segments from the careers of two legendary players and you can't go wrong with either.


I'd chose Wade by a minuscule amount because I feel his game was more well-rounded than Kobe's (in regards to his passing and defense), although '06 Kobe was perhaps the greatest streak scorer in basketball history.

[plowking]

Dude came 3rd in DPOY and didn't get a 1st team defense spot. Utterly ridiculous how under appreciated Wade was on the defensive end.

Can't believe we had guys like Rondo and Paul getting 1st team nods over him. Wade honestly deserves about 6 or 7 first team spots defensively. One of the greatest defensive guards ever.

[K Xerxes]

Dude came 3rd in DPOY and didn't get a 1st team defense spot. Utterly ridiculous how under appreciated Wade was on the defensive end.

Can't believe we had guys like Rondo and Paul getting 1st team nods over him. Wade honestly deserves about 6 or 7 first team spots defensively. One of the greatest defensive guards ever.

At that time, Paul and Rondo were excellent defenders though. I don't think it was that clear cut.

[Gileraracer]

I'd give 16 FTA per game to DWade

[plowking]

I'd give 16 FTA per game to DWade

Kobe averaged 16 free throws a game too over 6 games, and had the same amount of free throws in a 6 game series as Wade against Utah.

All this from a jump shooter. :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

IDK man

I think 09 Wade was a slightly better all-around player than 06 Kobe.

Their playoff runs are about equal.

I'll say Wade.

[feyki]

Both seems close Jordan now .

[Odinn]

With given situation, I'd take Wade over Kobe.
Kobe averaged 40+ ppg over a month but Wade had the craziest span I've ever seen.
Wade's path to the title was much more challenging and he did better IMO.

[Verticality]

Wade, mostly because he was better on the big stage, which counts more.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'd take Kobe in 2008 over every season and playoff run Wade's had.

Bean did everything needed for his team and was a better shooter than Wade, from midrange and three.

Wade's 2009 regular-season is probably equal to Kobe's 2006 campaign, and his 2006 finals are better than any of Kobe's finals. Wade's 2009 run as a whole gets overrated though - look at the impact both players had that season.

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2009-rapm/

Kobe and LeBron were higher impact players, and this metric is supposed to separate team from individual.

[tmacattack33]

Interesting battle

Wade by a little bit, for the great playmaking and Finals.

[DMV2]

A tie?

Kobe regular season, which had the 81 point game
Wade playoffs, especially Finals

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe.

Easy.

[WayOfWade]

Kobe.

Easy.
Care to explain? Posting 2 words doesn't qualify as basketball discussion

[HOoopCityJones]

I'd take Kobe in 2008 over every season and playoff run Wade's had.

Bean did everything needed for his team and was a better shooter than Wade, from midrange and three.

Wade's 2009 regular-season is probably equal to Kobe's 2006 campaign, and his 2006 finals are better than any of Kobe's finals. Wade's 2009 run as a whole gets overrated though - look at the impact both players had that season.

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2009-rapm/

Kobe and LeBron were higher impact players, and this metric is supposed to separate team from individual.

Thread ended that fast. I'll still take any Kobe's legendary WCF performances over Wade's one Finals performance.

[tmacattack33]

Thread ended that fast. I'll still take any Kobe's legendary WCF performances over Wade's one Finals performance.

Well then that would be quite a strange decision, because Wade's ECF in 2006 against Detroit was also very good and does indeed compare with Kobe's "legendary" WCF's. And then of course, his Finals absolutely sh*ts on any of Kobe's Finals...the only kobe Finals that even compares is 2009, and even that does not stand up.

So, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Wade's 2006 Playoff run was got better each series. It was better than any of Kobe's playoffs runs.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Dude came 3rd in DPOY and didn't get a 1st team defense spot. Utterly ridiculous how under appreciated Wade was on the defensive end.

Can't believe we had guys like Rondo and Paul getting 1st team nods over him. Wade honestly deserves about 6 or 7 first team spots defensively. One of the greatest defensive guards ever.
As if Wade even deserved to be 3rd in DPOY
funny how much u criticize Kobes defensive accolades and boost Wade hilariously getting undeserved top 3 in DPOY

and Dwyane wasnt better than CP on the defensive end. His offball defense outside weakside shotblocking has never been good

[Wade's Rings]

I'd take Kobe in 2008 over every season and playoff run Wade's had.

Bean did everything needed for his team and was a better shooter than Wade, from midrange and three.

I'd argue '06 Wade over '08 Kobe.


Wade's 2009 regular-season is probably equal to Kobe's 2006 campaign, and his 2006 finals are better than any of Kobe's finals. Wade's 2009 run as a whole gets overrated though - look at the impact both players had that season.

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2009-rapm/

Kobe and LeBron were higher impact players, and this metric is supposed to separate team from individual.

What? A metric called SWagR? Why not use Win shares? In '10 Wade beat out Kobe in that stats, would you agree with it then?

Using an advanced stat like RAPM Wade was the more impactful player that year.

I already know you think Wade's '09 Season is overrated because of his "poor post season play" but he wasn't that bad in the Playoffs.

[Akrazotile]

Wade and it's not close. '09 was the last year before he fell off an absolute cliff. Dude was absolutely killin it from 05-09. Easily a better prime than Kobe's.

[Dr Hawk]

Wade and it's not close. '09 was the last year before he fell off an absolute cliff. Dude was absolutely killin it from 05-09. Easily a better prime than Kobe's.

He didn't fell off an absolute cliff. '11 was still dominant

[Boogey]

kobe by a mile. simple eye test. kobe in 06 was unbelieveable.

watch youtube

[WayOfWade]

kobe by a mile. simple eye test. kobe in 06 was unbelieveable.

watch youtube
I've posted this before but 30.2 PPG/7.5 APG/49%FG >35.4 PPG/4.5 APG/45%FG, Wade in 09 was unbelievable, and instead of just saying "Watch YouTube," I'll give you actual links to see
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=siEj73YeQKo 48 vs. Bulls
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6eARUycYN_4 55 vs. Knicks
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pysemJrgGuE 43 vs. Suns
I previously thought Kobe in 06' was better than 09' Wade, but re-researching it have changed my mind, It's Wade (although not by a landslide, Kobe was spectacular)

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'd argue '06 Wade over '08 Kobe.



What? A metric called SWagR? Why not use Win shares? In '10 Wade beat out Kobe in that stats, would you agree with it then?

Using an advanced stat like RAPM Wade was the more impactful player that year.

I already know you think Wade's '09 Season is overrated because of his "poor post season play" but he wasn't that bad in the Playoffs.

SWaGR is RAPM, boss.

It adjusts for minutes and games played, pushing down the strange "WTF is he doing there?" players. Kobe and LeBron both had a higher RAPM in 2009 than Wade.

As for 2008 Kobe? I felt he accomplished everything Wade did in 2009 but in the playoffs. During the regular-season Kobe had LA atop the Western Conference before Pau being traded which was around all-star break, or close to. Thats as impressive as any of Wade's "awesome numbers" IMO.

Had he not mangled his shooting finger (fractured it just before the playoffs though he was still efficient honestly), 2008 is Kobe's best all-around season without question.

[dhsilv]

I'd take Kobe in 2008 over every season and playoff run Wade's had.

Bean did everything needed for his team and was a better shooter than Wade, from midrange and three.

Wade's 2009 regular-season is probably equal to Kobe's 2006 campaign, and his 2006 finals are better than any of Kobe's finals. Wade's 2009 run as a whole gets overrated though - look at the impact both players had that season.

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2009-rapm/

Kobe and LeBron were higher impact players, and this metric is supposed to separate team from individual.

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/rapm

Kobe and Wade are by the RAPM metrics equal in 09. Do keep in mind there's a fairly large margin of error in these stats so players who are close should be viewed as equal, and the higher score should not be taken as meaning someone is better unless it is MUCH larger. Stats are great tools but they should be used correctly.

09 Wade imo was better than 08 kobe but it's close. The 06 playoffs by Wade are just the stuff of legend.

[Magic 32]

09 Wade imo was better than 08 kobe but it's close.

http://i.imgur.com/kK69EfM.gif

[dhsilv]

I'd argue '06 Wade over '08 Kobe.



What? A metric called SWagR? Why not use Win shares? In '10 Wade beat out Kobe in that stats, would you agree with it then?

Using an advanced stat like RAPM Wade was the more impactful player that year.

I already know you think Wade's '09 Season is overrated because of his "poor post season play" but he wasn't that bad in the Playoffs.

Winshare is box score derived and whatever that was (didn't see the math in it) was based on play by play data (should be more accurate assuming the math is reasonable).

RAPM as I posted before says they were tied that year again margin for error...

[dhsilv]

kobe by a mile. simple eye test. kobe in 06 was unbelieveable.

watch youtube

I never got the love of his 06 seasons. Kobe does have unique skills that allow him to do what he did that year, which most other players couldn't dream of, but it wasn't great basketball. He was imo a far better player in 08 (all be it I disagree with the mvp going to him). I really don't rank the 06 kobe run as an all time great season outside of just points per game (meaningless stat). The eye test alone just doesn't see that as top tier basketball. It is exploitation of a singular skill that added very little to team success.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/rapm

Kobe and Wade are by the RAPM metrics equal in 09. Do keep in mind there's a fairly large margin of error in these stats so players who are close should be viewed as equal, and the higher score should not be taken as meaning someone is better unless it is MUCH larger. Stats are great tools but they should be used correctly.

09 Wade imo was better than 08 kobe but it's close. The 06 playoffs by Wade are just the stuff of legend.

That is junk as per the guy who made this website. Checkout gotbuckets which also has SWaGR, a cleaner representation of RAPM.

Agree with you though. I rarely if ever use advanced stats save for RAPM. Wade's impact in 2009 just isn't as great like others believe IMO.


Winshare is box score derived and whatever that was (didn't see the math in it) was based on play by play data (should be more accurate assuming the math is reasonable).

RAPM as I posted before says they were tied that year again margin for error...

Winshares are raw boxscore stats adjusted. Assuming we have full data for RAPM (no box score numbers), which we do for these years, winshares will never be the more accurate measure.

[dhsilv]

That is junk as per the guy who made this website. Checkout gotbuckets which also has SWaGR, a cleaner representation of RAPM.

Agree with you though. I rarely if ever use advanced stats save for RAPM. Wade's impact in 2009 just isn't as great like others believe IMO.



Winshares are raw boxscore stats adjusted. Assuming we have full data for RAPM (no box score numbers), which we do for these years, winshares will never be the more accurate measure.

I don't know what SWaGR does to RAPM to get where it goes, much like I don't know what espn is doing with RPM to get to WINS. wish there was more clarity on this stuff (though I haven't tried to find it either so on me a bit). That said again there's a HUGE amount of error in the real plus stuff. I'm fully a fan of them when you take that into account. It's not made to rank best player and it doesn't do that job, at all. It adds value only when you compare similar roles. That is where analytic are moving and where the stats are going. People want to know who the best ball handler is. Not the best point guard. The best passer in a pick and role system. Not the best point guard. They want the best shooter off screens. Not the best shooting guard.

The real plus stats aren't really going to give us a better view on best player anymore than PER did when it first came about. They give us a better idea of who excels at a role. That however requires a lot more thinking than this forum can handle.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Word

For the record, I never claimed LeBron or Kobe were better than Wade in 2009, only that they had more impact (arguably).

Although I think most agree LeBron was better than everybody that season.

[Dresta]

SWaGR is RAPM, boss.

It adjusts for minutes and games played, pushing down the strange "WTF is he doing there?" players. Kobe and LeBron both had a higher RAPM in 2009 than Wade.

As for 2008 Kobe? I felt he accomplished everything Wade did in 2009 but in the playoffs. During the regular-season Kobe had LA atop the Western Conference before Pau being traded which was around all-star break, or close to. Thats as impressive as any of Wade's "awesome numbers" IMO.

Had he not mangled his shooting finger (fractured it just before the playoffs though he was still efficient honestly), 2008 is Kobe's best all-around season without question.
So please explain why you are valuing Kobe more by him being ahead of Wade in RAPM (even though he's not: Wade's is .9 higher), but not valuing Odom over Kobe, when his RAPM is a full point better than Kobe's? Damn, considering Kobe has a better player than him on his own team, no wonder he won the title in 09! (he also had this guy on his team in 06, a team Kobe fans think was worse than a team whose second best player was Michael Beasley - and blame him for losing against the Hawks with such pitiful help :rolleyes:). So much inconsistency here.

Seriously, ranking people according to the dictates of this stat is showing itself to be pretty contradictory and inaccurate to say the least.

edit: about time people admit how bad Wade's team was in 09. While Kobe had RAPM legend Lamar Odom on his team in 06, Wade didn't have a single teammate with a positive RAPM that season:

Joel Anthony: -4.3 RAPM
Haslem: -1.06 RAPM
Beasley: -3.38 RAPM
Jermaine O'Neal: -0.17 RAPM
Chalmers: -3.06 RAPM
Diawara: -3.36 RAPM
D. Cook: -3.04 RAPM
Chris Quinn: -2.15 RAPM

Tell me how he should be blamed for losing a playoff series with that trash exactly?

[Wade's Rings]

SWaGR is RAPM, boss.

It adjusts for minutes and games played, pushing down the strange "WTF is he doing there?" players. Kobe and LeBron both had a higher RAPM in 2009 than Wade.

Doesn't RAPM do the same? Wade had a higher RAPM that year: https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/rapm clearly it wasn't by much.


As for 2008 Kobe? I felt he accomplished everything Wade did in 2009 but in the playoffs. During the regular-season Kobe had LA atop the Western Conference before Pau being traded which was around all-star break, or close to. Thats as impressive as any of Wade's "awesome numbers" IMO.

Had he not mangled his shooting finger (fractured it just before the playoffs though he was still efficient honestly), 2008 is Kobe's best all-around season without question.

After Bynum got hurt L.A was 5-5 before the Gasol trade but I'm fine with your opinion. Factoring in the Playoffs I'd argue '06 Wade over '08 Kobe. I still think teammates plays a factor in this, give Wade a slightly better team or maybe even a healthy JO and the Heat win that Hawk series.

[Wade's Rings]

So please explain why you are valuing Kobe more by him being ahead of Wade in RAPM (even though he's not: Wade's is .9 higher), but not valuing Odom over Kobe, when his RAPM is a full point better than Kobe's? Damn, considering Kobe has a better player than him on his own team, no wonder he won the title in 09! (he also had this guy on his team in 06, a team Kobe fans think was worse than a team whose second best player was Michael Beasley - and blame him for losing against the Hawks with such pitiful help :rolleyes:). So much inconsistency here.

Seriously, ranking people according to the dictates of this stat is showing itself to be pretty contradictory and inaccurate to say the least.

edit: about time people admit how bad Wade's team was in 09. While Kobe had RAPM legend Lamar Odom on his team in 06, Wade didn't have a single teammate with a positive RAPM that season:

Joel Anthony: -4.3 RAPM
Haslem: -1.06 RAPM
Beasley: -3.38 RAPM
Jermaine O'Neal: -0.17 RAPM
Chalmers: -3.06 RAPM
Diawara: -3.36 RAPM
D. Cook: -3.04 RAPM
Chris Quinn: -2.15 RAPM

Tell me how he should be blamed for losing a playoff series with that trash exactly?

That team so f*ckin awful.

[ArbitraryWater]

Man, looking at Bron's and Wade's 2009 teams, TERRIBLE..

Doubt Kobe makes the playoffs with them.

[Milbuck]

Man, looking at Bron's and Wade's 2009 teams, TERRIBLE..

Doubt Kobe makes the playoffs with them.
Uh, Lebron's 09 Cavs were nowhere near as shitty as Wade's 09 Heat.

And Kobe in 06 took this pile of trash to the playoffs:

Lamar Odom
Smush Parker
Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm
Devean George
Luke Walton
Brian Cook
Sasha Vujacic

That team struggles to win 15 games without Kobe.

[Wade's Rings]

Man, looking at Bron's and Wade's 2009 teams, TERRIBLE..

Doubt Kobe makes the playoffs with them.

If Wade had an even average team, his Peak would be viewed differently. He would've for sure beaten the Hawks and possibly won the MVP.

Bron's '09 squad wasn't as bad as Wade's '09 squad.

[Wade's Rings]

Uh, Lebron's 09 Cavs were nowhere near as shitty as Wade's 09 Heat.

And Kobe in 06 took this pile of trash to the playoffs:

Lamar Odom
Smush Parker
Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm
Devean George
Luke Walton
Brian Cook
Sasha Vujacic

That team struggles to win 15 games without Kobe.

I agree that team was trash but Odom was better than anybody Wade had on the '09 Heat especially come the Playoffs.

[Milbuck]

I agree that team was trash but Odom was better than anybody Wade had on the '09 Heat especially come the Playoffs.
Odom was a better 2nd guy but the rest of that Lakers team was clearly more garbage than the rest of that Heat team imo.

[Wade's Rings]

Odom was a better 2nd guy but the rest of that Lakers team was clearly more garbage than the rest of that Heat team imo.

I'd say they were even IMO.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Without looking at stats and going off of what I remember, Wade

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So please explain why you are valuing Kobe more by him being ahead of Wade in RAPM (even though he's not: Wade's is .9 higher)

A few things...

I don't believe Kobe was "better" than Wade in 2009. RAPM was an emphasize to my point about Wade's overrated impact.

SWaGR is RAPM, so it just adusts for minutes and games played. Kobe actually had the higher RAPM (SWaGR) that year. As did LeBron.

Please read carefully before going on another tangent.

[Showtime2001]

I'd say they were even IMO.
No they were not even.

Both teams were garbage though.

[Wade's Rings]

A few things...

I don't believe Kobe was "better" than Wade in 2009. RAPM was an emphasize to my point about Wade's overrated impact.

SWaGR is RAPM, so it just adusts for minutes and games played. Kobe actually had the higher RAPM (SWaGR) that year. As did LeBron.

Please read carefully before going on another tangent.

So SWaGR means Wade's impact was overrated?

:biggums:


No they were not even.

Both teams were garbage though.

ok.

[tpols]

So please explain why you are valuing Kobe more by him being ahead of Wade in RAPM (even though he's not: Wade's is .9 higher), but not valuing Odom over Kobe, when his RAPM is a full point better than Kobe's? Damn, considering Kobe has a better player than him on his own team, no wonder he won the title in 09! (he also had this guy on his team in 06, a team Kobe fans think was worse than a team whose second best player was Michael Beasley - and blame him for losing against the Hawks with such pitiful help :rolleyes:). So much inconsistency here.

Seriously, ranking people according to the dictates of this stat is showing itself to be pretty contradictory and inaccurate to say the least.

edit: about time people admit how bad Wade's team was in 09. While Kobe had RAPM legend Lamar Odom on his team in 06, Wade didn't have a single teammate with a positive RAPM that season:

Joel Anthony: -4.3 RAPM
Haslem: -1.06 RAPM
Beasley: -3.38 RAPM
Jermaine O'Neal: -0.17 RAPM
Chalmers: -3.06 RAPM
Diawara: -3.36 RAPM
D. Cook: -3.04 RAPM
Chris Quinn: -2.15 RAPM

Tell me how he should be blamed for losing a playoff series with that trash exactly?

It's not Kobe's fault Wade didn't make his teammates better.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So SWaGR means Wade's impact was overrated?

:biggums:

SWaGR/RAPM is a nice tool to measure impact (non boxscore), but by no means is it the end all be all, or ONLY metric that I use.

Its just easily accessible and semi reliable with other organizations employing it and whatnot.

I prefer breaking down the game with film and tape :confusedshrug:

[Wade's Rings]

SWaGR/RAPM is a nice tool to measure impact (non boxscore), but by no means is it the end all be all, or ONLY metric that I use.

Its just easily accessible and semi reliable with other organizations employing it and whatnot.

I prefer breaking down the game with film and tape :confusedshrug:

Oh ok. Guess that's just my bias speaking out. He was so dominant that year, I find it hard for someone to say his impact was overrated but you're one of the few good posters on here and I respect your opinion even if I disagree with it.

:cheers:

[Kobe_6/8]

I won't comment on the playoffs, but Kobe had a more impressive regular season by far.

Chalmers/Marion >>> Smush Parker/Kwame Brown

[Wade's Rings]

I won't comment on the playoffs, but Kobe had a more impressive regular season by far.

Chalmers/Marion >>> Smush Parker/Kwame Brown

Odom was better than anybody Wade had on the Heat that year and Marion was traded at All-Star break.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Oh ok. Guess that's just my bias speaking out. He was so dominant that year, I find it hard for someone to say his impact was overrated but you're one of the few good posters on here and I respect your opinion even if I disagree with it.

:cheers:

Thanks homie.

I'll throw you rep when I so that you're in the green like a crouton :cheers:

[Wade's Rings]

Thanks homie.

I'll throw you rep when I so that you're in the green like a crouton :cheers:

:applause: :rockon:

[Jacks3]

Neither of these guys have anything approaching elite defensive
impact over the course of a full season. Ultimately you are taking them for their offense and Bryant is superior there. Yeah, its not some big gap, but its pretty clear. I just feel like his far superior perimeter shooting, off-ball activity, and lesser ball-dominance make him more valuable to good to great teams. He's had a far greater track record of anchoring elite offenses when both were surrounded by shit and when they were playing with other star talent on more sophistaced offenses.