Shaq has better footwork than Bran

[warriorfan]

LeBron needs to work on his foot work

[Bankaii]

What is this even supposed to mean?

Shaq had great footwork, he was skilled as hell.

You prove how stupid you are more and more everyday. Proceed melting down though.

[Nick Young]

Shaq had elite footwork, it's no surprise that zero fundamentals Lebron has worse footwork than him.

[La Frescobaldi]

better question

what center all time, historical, mythical, legendary or any other had better foot work than Shaq did

[Angel Face]

Obviously (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8)

[deja vu]

better question

what center all time, historical, mythical, legendary or any other had better foot work than Shaq did
Hakeem.

[La Frescobaldi]

Hakeem.

no.

[Nick Young]

better question

what center all time, historical, mythical, legendary or any other had better foot work than Shaq did
There are a few, but Shaq's fundamentals are top notch and elite. Zero holes in his footwork.

I will say Hakeem because he was more agile, and pulled off trickier moves more often than Shaq did, but that doesn't mean he was a better overall center than Shaq because he wasn't.

Kevin McHale wasn't a center but his footwork was better than Shaq's too IMO.


Shaq's superb positioning, strength and athleticism, combined with his footwork and will to dominate all living things made him the best low post player of all time.

[Prime_Shaq]

There are a few, but Shaq's fundamentals are top notch and elite. Zero holes in his footwork.

I will say Hakeem because he was more agile, and pulled off trickier moves more often than Shaq did, but that doesn't mean he was a better overall center than Shaq because he wasn't.

Kevin McHale wasn't a center but his footwork was better than Shaq's too IMO.


Shaq's superb positioning, strength and athleticism, combined with his footwork and will to dominate all living things made him the best low post player of all time.
Yeah Hakeem was more agile and elusive because he wasn't as big as Shaq. Shaq could beat you with his size as well as finesse when needed.

[rzp]

lol... ****tard, Shaq was all about footwork.

[Nick Young]

Yeah Hakeem was more agile and elusive because he wasn't as big as Shaq. Shaq could beat you with his size as well as finesse when needed.
Shaq was capable of pulling off moves like Hakeem. He even did it a few times. He just didn't have to. There was no need to pull those moves he had in his arsenal very often, because most of the time a drop step or simple baby hook was enough.


People who never watched Shaq seem to be under the impression that he was a big dumb idiot who was only as good as he was because he was big and could jump high.

He was actually one of the most skilled centers of all time. He had better fundamentals and skill than any bigman in the league today, including Tim Duncan.

His skill combined with his basketball IQ, court vision, elite size and athleticism made him the most unstoppable scorer in NBA history in his prime.

[SyRyanYang]

A better statement is Leonard has way better footwork than Bran

[Rockets(T-mac)]

No shit sherlock.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

A better statement is Leonard has way better footwork than Bran
This.

Shaq has some of the GOAT footwork. Kawhi is so young and still learning and his footwork is already much better than Brans ever was, defensively and even offensively now:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[zoom17]

OP getting roasted like usual.

[La Frescobaldi]

There are a few, but Shaq's fundamentals are top notch and elite. Zero holes in his footwork.

I will say Hakeem because he was more agile, and pulled off trickier moves more often than Shaq did, but that doesn't mean he was a better overall center than Shaq because he wasn't.

Kevin McHale wasn't a center but his footwork was better than Shaq's too IMO.


Shaq's superb positioning, strength and athleticism, combined with his footwork and will to dominate all living things made him the best low post player of all time.
Olajuwon more agile... yeah. not more skilled footwork.
If Shaq got his foot - either foot - between his defender's feet I don't care who it is, ever, all time, he's going to get a great shot. His footwork is unmatched not even by Olajuwon. McHale? Yeah maybe that dude was something else!!

Shaq not the best low post player of all time that was Chamberlain. Chamberlain's arsenal circa '67 - '69 before his knee blew out is unmatched by anyone.

[Nick Young]

Olajuwon more agile... yeah. not more skilled footwork.
If Shaq got his foot - either foot - between his defender's feet I don't care who it is, ever, all time, he's going to get a great shot. His footwork is unmatched not even by Olajuwon. McHale? Yeah maybe that dude was something else!!

Shaq not the best low post player of all time that was Chamberlain. Chamberlain's arsenal circa '67 - '69 before his knee blew out is unmatched by anyone.
Shaq>Chamberlain, Shaq played vs better competition. Shaq was also a much better passer than Wilt and had more of a will to dominate.

Shaq was putting up 40/20 in the playoffs facing double and triple teams every time down the court. Wilt was not on the MDE's level.

[La Frescobaldi]

Shaq>Chamberlain, Shaq played vs better competition. Shaq was also a much better passer than Wilt and had more of a will to dominate.

Shaq was putting up 40/20 in the playoffs facing double and triple teams every time down the court. Wilt was not on the MDE's level.


nah bro you got each and every one of those backwards. But we can agree on Shaq being one of the greatest ever!!

[jongib369]

nah bro you got each and every one of those backwards. But we can agree on Shaq being one of the greatest ever!!
This, the only thing he had on Chamberlain was footwork, quickness(to an extent), and the not give a shit attitude to be a bulldozer...Which Chamberlain could do, to what the rules would allow in his day. Otherwise you're completely right, Wilt had the better arsenal. I'd never say Shaq wouldn't get his, anyone who says Wilt would have his way with him is fooling themselves...But like I said earlier on a different thread


They both would of had a lot of trouble guarding the other, Shaq was a tad shorter(height/length), heavier, thicker legs, with feet a LOT bigger. So he'd have the edge pushing, but he woulnd't have his way with him. Wilt was faster, arguably stronger in the upper body, could jump higher, and his offensive game IMO would of been less effected by Shaqs body/D, than Shaq would be by Wilts. Shaq had better footwork, and might of been quicker...But overall the better athlete was Wilt. In their run and gun era, Shaq would not of gotten up to 360, as he would of been ran into the ground eventually by Russell, and Wilt. In Shaqs era, Wilt likely could of gotten a bit heavier with the slower pace and be okay...Along with being more muscular

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-JCc8JFbQOpw/VPtGIfIAcFI/AAAAAAAAFu0/0crhnxu0g4I/s800/wilt80%2527s.jpg


http://www.elmoresmithbbqsauce.com/images/slider/vWiltChamberlain2.jpg

http://www.photofile.com/SportsProducts/Photos/aafu035.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-POHe_Ss1WS8/VPtyybKAR3I/AAAAAAAAFvs/B0hI72uiAXM/s800/wilt%252069asg.jpg

They would of brought the best out of each other, physically and mentally. Wilt would Outscore, rebound, block, and assist Shaq. But, Shaq would of had the better FG%...But if forced to shoot at the same volume as Wilt, he wouldn't of been able to maintain it. My Top 3 consists of those two, so in no way am I meaning to bash, or downplay Shaq. Shaq would not only hold his own, but make many posters on Wilt that would be on all of our walls. He probably would of pissed Wilt off to the point he'd get him ejected, or even foul out...But I also believe the same to be true the other way around.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fzb1IgIWsmU/VmqTsIud3CI/AAAAAAAAHYM/0eEmh0deP3g/s1280-Ic42/WiltShaq.jpg

[Kawhi]

OP trying to sound smart, but he has absolutely no clue what he's talking about. Too young to have witnessed Shaq I guess.

[Kblaze8855]

people only started acting like Shaq had bad footwork in retrospect in about 2007.....

[Gileraracer]

Because Lebron has no footwork at all?

[MP.Trey]

Shaq's one of the greatest big men to ever play the game. LeBron's a perimeter player.

[Mass Debator]

Bruce Bowen has better foot work than both.

[Dr Hawk]

Bruce Bowen has better foot work than both.

Indeed

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/2286700/bruce-bowen-kick-o.gif

[feyki]

A better statement is Leonard has way better footwork than Bran

True .

[feyki]

Shaq>Chamberlain, Shaq played vs better competition. Shaq was also a much better passer than Wilt and had more of a will to dominate.

Shaq was putting up 40/20 in the playoffs facing double and triple teams every time down the court. Wilt was not on the MDE's level.


Better competition ? :oldlol:

Todd MacCulloch and Rik Smith > Bill Russell , Nate Thurmond and Kareem :oldlol: .


Hakeem had far skilled footwork and post moves than Shaq . Watch the damn 95 Finals ..

[ShawkFactory]

Mark Price was a better free throw shooter than Jordan.

Weak. Jordan should have worked on it more.

[Elosha]

This, the only thing he had on Chamberlain was footwork, quickness(to an extent), and the not give a shit attitude to be a bulldozer...Which Chamberlain could do, to what the rules would allow in his day. Otherwise you're completely right, Wilt had the better arsenal. I'd never say Shaq wouldn't get his, anyone who says Wilt would have his way with him is fooling themselves...But like I said earlier on a different thread


As to the OP, yes of course Shaq's footwork is way superior to Lebron, Lebron's not known for great footwork, overall, nor specifically in the post. Shaq was one one of the best of all time.

Jongib369, good post on Wilt v. Shaq, but I think the video evidence tells a different tale as to their respective skills/arsenal. I currently think both were very skilled. Wilt probably had the higher variety of shots, although Shaq had quite an arsenal himself, with jump hooks, spin moves, baseline turnarounds, etc. Not entirely sure who was more effective with their moves in their primes.

As to athleticism/size, each has their advantages. Overall strength/size balance, coordination, and explosiveness as well as physical dominance belong to Shaq. Length/height, shot blocking ability/desire, stamina, and probably speed go to Wilt. Shaq was a hell of a lot faster than people give him credit for. I found a youtube Magic clip one time of him outsprinting David Robinson halfway down the court for a loose ball. Of course, there's no way he was as fast as a heavy and older Lakers player as he was in Orlando, but for that matter, there's no way Wilt was as fast as a heavier/older Lakers player. Everyone wants to have it both ways and give Wilt/Shaq etc the benefit of both maximum strength and maximum athleticism simultaneously, when they likely occurred at different times.

[Mawly-G]

better question

what center all time, historical, mythical, legendary or any other had better foot work than Shaq did
Hakeem

[bitedez]

no shit shaq had good footwork. dumbass

[La Frescobaldi]

As to the OP, yes of course Shaq's footwork is way superior to Lebron, Lebron's not known for great footwork, overall, nor specifically in the post. Shaq was one one of the best of all time.

Jongib369, good post on Wilt v. Shaq, but I think the video evidence tells a different tale as to their respective skills/arsenal. I currently think both were very skilled. Wilt probably had the higher variety of shots, although Shaq had quite an arsenal himself, with jump hooks, spin moves, baseline turnarounds, etc. Not entirely sure who was more effective with their moves in their primes.

As to athleticism/size, each has their advantages. Overall strength/size balance, coordination, and explosiveness as well as physical dominance belong to Shaq. Length/height, shot blocking ability/desire, stamina, and probably speed go to Wilt. Shaq was a hell of a lot faster than people give him credit for. I found a youtube Magic clip one time of him outsprinting David Robinson halfway down the court for a loose ball. Of course, there's no way he was as fast as a heavy and older Lakers player as he was in Orlando, but for that matter, there's no way Wilt was as fast as a heavier/older Lakers player. Everyone wants to have it both ways and give Wilt/Shaq etc the benefit of both maximum strength and maximum athleticism simultaneously, when they likely occurred at different times.

Shaq's footwork was better than Wilt's, imo. By quite a ways tbh. Chamberlain was inventing a lot of that - he had no film to watch of elite post players before him. Whereas the Shaqtus had dozens of guys to watch who had played with and against Wilt, and two decades afterward who had studied all that film and drilled for years and years.
The difference was, Chamberlain had an endless supply of not just good moves, but GO-TO moves.
On both blocks he had the fadeaway to 15 feet, the spin either side, over and unders, hook shots, and a whole array of power moves.
Under the hoop it was just wow lol but he had nice turnaround jumpers in the paint too. All those were perfectly deadly and honed to perfection. Cavs has a big video movie of Chamberlain's moves it's in an older thread from last year or maybe the year before

As far as who was stronger? I don't know. Chamberlain DID the strongest things I've ever seen on a basketball court. I saw him pick up two guys off the floor, grabbed them by the shoulder one in each hand and lift them bodily off the ground onto their feet. Just incredible feats of strength, on display right on the court.

[jongib369]

God damn it...Had a long post highlighting some of Wilts moves, with explanations...Hit post, and my account was signed out

:banghead: :banghead:

Have to head out to a wrestling show, so I'll get back to you in the next few days


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_FoYTX2vPM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC3KfhYRtG4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPMUyRyTflw

[riseagainst]

Indeed

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/2286700/bruce-bowen-kick-o.gif


:lol
:roll:

[Elosha]

Shaq's footwork was better than Wilt's, imo. By quite a ways tbh. Chamberlain was inventing a lot of that - he had no film to watch of elite post players before him. Whereas the Shaqtus had dozens of guys to watch who had played with and against Wilt, and two decades afterward who had studied all that film and drilled for years and years.
The difference was, Chamberlain had an endless supply of not just good moves, but GO-TO moves.
On both blocks he had the fadeaway to 15 feet, the spin either side, over and unders, hook shots, and a whole array of power moves.
Under the hoop it was just wow lol but he had nice turnaround jumpers in the paint too. All those were perfectly deadly and honed to perfection. Cavs has a big video movie of Chamberlain's moves it's in an older thread from last year or maybe the year before

As far as who was stronger? I don't know. Chamberlain DID the strongest things I've ever seen on a basketball court. I saw him pick up two guys off the floor, grabbed them by the shoulder one in each hand and lift them bodily off the ground onto their feet. Just incredible feats of strength, on display right on the court.

Hmm, I won't pretend to say I saw Wilt play live although I'm much older than most of ISH posters. I also tend to think I'm probably biased by the fact that I watched Shaq for many of my formative years (although I hated him) and I'm guessing most posters who watched Wilt during their formative years are biased towards him. Same thing with different eras, we all remember what we grew up with, with nostalgia and probably more than a little bias.

That said this is what I try (and probably fail somewhat) to objectively observe from the limited (but growing) footage of Wilt versus what I see of Shaq. Of course you appear to have watched him many times live on TV or in person, so I will certainly defer somewhat to your opinion, even if it may be biased like mine. :D

It's interesting to hear you say that Shaq had much better footwork than Wilt but also mention a great array of moves Wilt had perfected. Some of those moves, like spin moves, up and under, etc. require great foot work and foot speed. From what I've been able to compare, Shaq appears to be overall significantly quicker and more explosive in things like baseline spin moves (which he could do with the ball or off ball finishing with an alley oop dunk) and power up and unders.

Wilt on the other hand seems to have better finesse with his turnaround jumper off the glass (although it appears far more prominently on the left block, and you mentioned he was great on both sides) and finger rolls, which Shaq really didn't perfect at all. On the other hand, Shaq had a very respectable turnaround around jumper on both sides of the block, (but he also favored the left block) but he didn't have quite as much range or touch as Chamberlain seems to have in his videos. On the other hand Shaq had great success with his jump hook anywhere near the basket, and I've not really seen any evidence that Wilt had much of a hook. Wilt seemed to have favored the over the shoulder finger roll, which given his size advantage and incredibly long arms was a great shot for him. It also required an enormous amount of skill and finesse.

In summary, I guess I'd say they both demonstrated a host of "go to" moves and each had unique styles and preferences in accomplishing them. I also note that Shaq has a 58.2% career field goal percentage and Wilt's is 54%, although I do believe he may have the record for season best FG%. But overall Shaq shot a bit better. Is that a product of more dunks/power moves and closer shots? Or is it also partially a product of Wilt shooting slightly less efficient shots or shots further away? Very difficult to answer. Of course, the way defenses played them both was somewhat different too, as was the refereeing.

This is truly one of the dream match ups. I would have loved to see how each would have done with the other. Nothing but respect for two all time greats. :cheers:

[jongib369]

Hmm, I won't pretend to say I saw Wilt play live although I'm much older than most of ISH posters. I also tend to think I'm probably biased by the fact that I watched Shaq for many of my formative years (although I hated him) and I'm guessing most posters who watched Wilt during their formative years are biased towards him. Same thing with different eras, we all remember what we grew up with, with nostalgia and probably more than a little bias.

That said this is what I try (and probably fail somewhat) to objectively observe from the limited (but growing) footage of Wilt versus what I see of Shaq. Of course you appear to have watched him many times live on TV or in person, so I will certainly defer somewhat to your opinion, even if it may be biased like mine. :D

It's interesting to hear you say that Shaq had much better footwork than Wilt but also mention a great array of moves Wilt had perfected. Some of those moves, like spin moves, up and under, etc. require great foot work and foot speed. From what I've been able to compare, Shaq appears to be overall significantly quicker and more explosive in things like baseline spin moves (which he could do with the ball or off ball finishing with an alley oop dunk) and power up and unders.

Wilt on the other hand seems to have better finesse with his turnaround jumper off the glass (although it appears far more prominently on the left block, and you mentioned he was great on both sides) and finger rolls, which Shaq really didn't perfect at all. On the other hand, Shaq had a very respectable turnaround around jumper on both sides of the block, (but he also favored the left block) but he didn't have quite as much range or touch as Chamberlain seems to have in his videos. On the other hand Shaq had great success with his jump hook anywhere near the basket, and I've not really seen any evidence that Wilt had much of a hook. 1. Wilt seemed to have favored the over the shoulder finger roll, which given his size advantage and incredibly long arms was a great shot for him. It also required an enormous amount of skill and finesse.

In summary, I guess I'd say they both demonstrated a host of "go to" moves and each had unique styles and preferences in accomplishing them. 2. I also note that Shaq has a 58.2% career field goal percentage and Wilt's is 54%, although I do believe he may have the record for season best FG%. But overall Shaq shot a bit better. Is that a product of more dunks/power moves and closer shots? Or is it also partially a product of Wilt shooting slightly less efficient shots or shots further away? Very difficult to answer. Of course, the way defenses played them both was somewhat different too, as was the refereeing.

This is truly one of the dream match ups. I would have loved to see how each would have done with the other. Nothing but respect for two all time greats. :cheers:

1. It was also a great way to draw a foul, as ther defender was likely to hit the back of his hand. Plus, it would "unspring" the defenders legs, allowing him to get enough space for the fade away. It's a very smart move which doesn't get enough credit IMO.

2. Part of that difference is the fact Wilt shot in higher volume than Shaq, had shaq had to shoot as much with the same aresonal I'm sure it would drop a bit. But from what I remember(Don't quote e on this) but even the years with similar attempts, Shaq was slightly ahead.

Shaq was more of a sniper, Wilt was a Shotgun. It worked well for both of them...But had they faced each other IMO Shaq would have to make more adjustments. Wilt didn't have as good of footwork like has been said, but a lot of his moves didn't requite it AS much. The fingerroll for instance, is overwhelming the defender physically, going over him or catching him out of position. Good footwork is requited, but it's not as important as it is for Shaqs "black tornado" (:lol)



This is a question to anyone reading, I'm looking for a dunk Wilt made on Russell near the end of a game that was "Clutch". Possibly during the 1964 Finals...Russell was sagging off him, and gave Wilt a wide open attempt. As unremarkable as that was, if you pay attention to how much distance Wilt covered in one step it's quite eye opening. I'm curious if there's footage of Shaq covering as much ground with a simple step like that... Though I'm definitely not doubting his abilities, and his own advantages

[LBJFTW]

better question

what center all time, historical, mythical, legendary or any other had better foot work than Shaq did

Hakeem and Hakeem even tried to work with Lebron on his footwork but Lebron is so uncoordinated with his foot work that it never went anywhere.

[knicksman]

What op is trying to say is if a big man is more skilled than you are then its no surprise why youre 2/6 and needed stacked teams to win.

[Nick Young]

Shaq's footwork was better than Wilt's, imo. By quite a ways tbh. Chamberlain was inventing a lot of that - he had no film to watch of elite post players before him. Whereas the Shaqtus had dozens of guys to watch who had played with and against Wilt, and two decades afterward who had studied all that film and drilled for years and years.
The difference was, Chamberlain had an endless supply of not just good moves, but GO-TO moves.
On both blocks he had the fadeaway to 15 feet, the spin either side, over and unders, hook shots, and a whole array of power moves.
Under the hoop it was just wow lol but he had nice turnaround jumpers in the paint too. All those were perfectly deadly and honed to perfection. Cavs has a big video movie of Chamberlain's moves it's in an older thread from last year or maybe the year before

As far as who was stronger? I don't know. Chamberlain DID the strongest things I've ever seen on a basketball court. I saw him pick up two guys off the floor, grabbed them by the shoulder one in each hand and lift them bodily off the ground onto their feet. Just incredible feats of strength, on display right on the court.


Shaq had several go-to moves. His difference with Wilt was he rarely needed to use them. More often than not his drop step and baby hook was enough to get the job done.

Unlike Wilt, Shaq did not care about playing an aesthetically pleasing game. Shaq just wanted to dominate. Wilt cared too much about playing pretty and I personally believe this held him back from reaching his true potential. Whereas Shaq would sometimes just do the same move 5-6 times in a row.

Shaq didn't care how his buckets went in the hoop. He just destroyed whoever was in his way with no regards for human life. That's why I think he's better than Wilt was.

Not to mention Shaq's ring count in comparison to Wilts.


Shaq was dominating triple teams of Sabonis, Rasheed and Pippen in the playoffs. I have no doubt that he would be able to get buckets if Wilt tried to guard him 1v1. Wilt was strong but Shaq was heavier and stronger and also mentally had more of a will to dominate. I have no doubt that Shaq would be able to bully Wilt just like he did every single center he went up against, except for Greg Ostertag.

I also think Wilt would be able to score buckets on Shaq. Shaq shoots higher percentage shots though.

TL;DR Shaq did not give a **** about looking pretty and showing off his wide-array of moves whereas Wilt did. That's why Shaq was better.

[Blue&Orange]

A better statement is Leonard has way better footwork than Bran
A better statement is everyone has way better footwork than Bran, even Cole Aldrich.

[La Frescobaldi]

Shaq had several go-to moves. His difference with Wilt was he rarely needed to use them. More often than not his drop step and baby hook was enough to get the job done.

Unlike Wilt, Shaq did not care about playing an aesthetically pleasing game. Shaq just wanted to dominate. Wilt cared too much about playing pretty and I personally believe this held him back from reaching his true potential. Whereas Shaq would sometimes just do the same move 5-6 times in a row.

Shaq didn't care how his buckets went in the hoop. He just destroyed whoever was in his way with no regards for human life. That's why I think he's better than Wilt was.

Not to mention Shaq's ring count in comparison to Wilts.


Shaq was dominating triple teams of Sabonis, Rasheed and Pippen in the playoffs. I have no doubt that he would be able to get buckets if Wilt tried to guard him 1v1. Wilt was strong but Shaq was heavier and stronger and also mentally had more of a will to dominate. I have no doubt that Shaq would be able to bully Wilt just like he did every single center he went up against, except for Greg Ostertag.

I also think Wilt would be able to score buckets on Shaq. Shaq shoots higher percentage shots though.

TL;DR Shaq did not give a **** about looking pretty and showing off his wide-array of moves whereas Wilt did. That's why Shaq was better.

it's a valid opinion; it's not mine, but I get it.
A big question mark for Shaq is how he'd do in a different rule set. Most people pretty much agree that he'd foul out quick in any rule set of 60s, 70s, 80s, or 10s. He had a little window, basically from Bad Boy Pistons to the referee scandals of mid 00s where fouls were widely ignored.

I have no doubt he'd be elite in any of those times; he was incredibly skilled. But he wouldn't be anything like the Shaq we all loved on the Lakers.

[jongib369]

it's a valid opinion; it's not mine, but I get it.
A big question mark for Shaq is how he'd do in a different rule set. Most people pretty much agree that he'd foul out quick in any rule set of 60s, 70s, 80s, or 10s. He had a little window, basically from Bad Boy Pistons to the referee scandals of mid 00s where fouls were widely ignored.

I have no doubt he'd be elite in any of those times; he was incredibly skilled. But he wouldn't be anything like the Shaq we all loved on the Lakers.
This, he'd have to play different in these times.... But that wouldn't stop him from being in my top 3. He was VERY skilled. I'd go as far as to say he'd mold his game after Chamberlains playing in the 60s, seeing how easy it was to get a charging foul in those days. But that's not saying he wouldn't be an absolute terror under the rim...he'd give Thurmond, and Russell nightmares

Wilt playing in Shaqs time, didn't he say he'd probably play a bit more like Shaq?

[Paul George 24]

lecjoke stan disappear :lol