Lebron passes Jordan in career VORP

[VengefulAngel]

I'm not saying Lebron is better than Jordan, this article is very interesting for those who are interested in these stats and basketball in general.

http://www.sports-reference.com/blog/2016/01/lebron-passes-jordan-to-become-all-time-vorp-king/

[warriorfan]

if you are really into statistics like "VORP" then you are probably autistic

[WayOfWade]

Putting LeBron and Jordan in the same sentence on ISH usually isn't a good idea, however I was fascinated in the article that LeBron somehow has a higher defensive rating than Jordan does, especially since Jordan was DPOY and is generally regarded as one of the best defenders in the modern era. I'm not surprised though by LeBron's leading Jordan, his rebounds and assists made this a foregone conclusion to happen, he just had such a big advantage there. Interesting stuff, just goes to show how far Jordan would be ahead had he not retired multiple times

[G-Funk]

What about Finals MVP's?

[VengefulAngel]

if you are really into statistics like "VORP" then you are probably autistic

Oh look our resident ISH keyboard warrior.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Putting LeBron and Jordan in the same sentence on ISH usually isn't a good idea, however I was fascinated in the article that LeBron somehow has a higher defensive rating than Jordan does, especially since Jordan was DPOY and is generally regarded as one of the best defenders in the modern era. I'm not surprised though by LeBron's leading Jordan, his rebounds and assists made this a foregone conclusion to happen, he just had such a big advantage there. Interesting stuff, just goes to show how far Jordan would be ahead had he not retired multiple times

you should be more fascinated that these people are using drgt for individual players when you can go to bball reference and see that the guy who created the damn stat admits it isn't very good to use for individual players and that it by nature favors big men over guards

[VengefulAngel]

you should be more fascinated that these people are using drgt for individual players when you can go to bball reference and see that the guy who created the damn stat admits it isn't very good to use for individual players and that it by nature favors big men over guards

It was even admitted in the article if you bothered reading it.

[TheMarkMadsen]

It was even admitted in the article if you bothered reading it.

it briefly mentions that lebron's defensive bpm is higher because Lebron played on better teams but then still goes on to compare the stat.. sooo...


Some of these stats are just silly, VORP for example works off an estimation of what a theoretical replacement player would provide and takes no consideration of play style, which is obviously a huge factor when talking about replacing the best player on a team.

[VengefulAngel]

it briefly mentions that lebron's defensive bpm is higher because Lebron played on better teams but then still goes on to compare the stat.. sooo...


Some of these stats are just silly, VORP for example works off an estimation of what a theoretical replacement player would provide and takes no consideration of play style, which is obviously a huge factor when talking about replacing the best player on a team.

Agree totally, but it with conjunction with common sense can be a statistic which we can use to determine impact. It's unfair to compare player's who play different positions for example, as mentioned briefly in the article.

It's a far better judge then what we have used previously, raw stats.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Has he passed him in rings yet?

[Marchesk]

Has he passed him in rings yet?

Depends, if you replaced Lebron with a theoretical player, how many rings would he have?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

VORP doesn't take into account minutes, teammates, roles, opposition, etc. Just throws a bunch of box numbers together and attempts to "adjust" them.

Like most advanced stats, this one is terrible.

[VengefulAngel]

Has he passed him in rings yet?

So your argument if I understand you correctly is that Jordan is better because he has more rings, in this case is Bill Russell better than Jordan?

[sportjames23]

VORP? They making up shit to try to make it look like Lebron is close to MJ.

[ortonsaw]

if youre putting jordan and lebron in the same sentence, youre disrespecting jordan
hes a god

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Well shit this changes everything

[feyki]

Well shit this changes everything

:lol :lol

[VengefulAngel]

Well shit this changes everything

You got me :roll: :roll:

[TheImmortal]

Never heard of this shit till now.. don't even care tbqh.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXvLse2WQAEWTyh.jpg

[dhsilv]

you should be more fascinated that these people are using drgt for individual players when you can go to bball reference and see that the guy who created the damn stat admits it isn't very good to use for individual players and that it by nature favors big men over guards

dbpm is being mentioned in the article not drgt...did you read it? FYI neither are great measures. However defense itself favors big men, so I'm not sure your point goes anywhere.

[SexSymbol]

Well shit this changes everything
lol


Seriously, what's VORP? Never heard of it until now

[34-24 Footwork]

I honestly don't know what VORP is? Is it worth reading about or is it just another weird statistic made by and ESPN analyst post 2011 finals?

[NBAplayoffs2001]

LeBron can have all these useless career calculations over Jordan but I would rather have 6 rings, global recognition, and $1 billion. LeBron can have all the VORP in the world and I could careless. Jordan is still the GOAT.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXvLse2WQAEWTyh.jpg

Legend, Legend, ____?

[DMV2]

Legend, Legend, ____?
VORP Legend

[dhsilv]

I honestly don't know what VORP is? Is it worth reading about or is it just another weird statistic made by and ESPN analyst post 2011 finals?

So the best stats we have are from the play by play data. More data = better results. The goal of these types of stats is to be able predict a teams future wins.

Because we don't have play by play going farther back someone did a regression from box score stats against the real plus minus data with something like 900 players. The result being BPM, box plus minus.

Feel free to read basketball reference's explanation, it's VERY long and detailed.

TL/DR

The interesting thing with VORP is it works a lot like winshare but instead of giving role players a lot of credit, it barely give any value to role players. In contrast it gives a LOT more credit to great players. Thus why lebron is so high on the stats rankings while being farther back in winshare which gives you more reward for playing more games even at a lower level.

Worth reading up on? Meh...you'll certainly find stuff you don't like with it and won't agree with it on everything. Again like all stats they really about about evaluating a TEAM's results, NOT telling us who is the best player. As a result expect noise in the results.

Personally I like better from career greatness than WS or PER. It imo correctly gives guys a lot more credit for having a GOAT like season and don't care that Gary Payton played for 100 years as an average guy.

[Dr Hawk]

Legend, Legend, ____?

Christmas MVP

[3ball]

VORP has the same problem as every other advanced stat, when looked alone.

[3ball]

So much incompetence itt

[3ball]

I'm not surprised though by LeBron's leading Jordan, his rebounds and assists made this a foregone conclusion to happen, he just had such a big advantage there.



You're factually incorrect, as usual - thru the same age and in their respective primes, Jordan averaged the same or more assists:


Playoffs Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 34.7 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 5.1 dreb.. 6.6 apg.. 3.3 tov.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ORtg
Lebron: 28.2 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.7 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 1.7 spg.. 0.9 blk.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg..


Finals Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 3.4 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.76 bpg.. 52.6 fg
Lebron: 26.4 ppg.. 9.6 rpg.. 6.9 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.54 bpg.. 44.6 fg



6-Year Prime - Playoffs Per Game Stats:

JORDAN 1988-1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game): 34.6 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 5.1 dreb.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
LEBRON 2009-2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game): 28.1 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.1 dreb.. 6.1 apg.. 1.8 stl.. 0.9 bpg.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg



6-Year Prime - Playoffs Per 100 Possessions:

JORDAN 1988-1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 44.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 6.6 dreb.. 8.5 ast.. 3.0 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
LEBRON 2009-2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 37.1 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.1 ast.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg



Career Playoffs:

Jordan: 33.4 ppg.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 apg.. 3.1 tov.. 2.1 spg.. 0.9 blk.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
Lebron: 28.2 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.7 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 1.7 spg.. 0.9 blk.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg..


Career Finals:

Jordan: 33.6 ppg.. 6.0 rpg.. 6.0 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.65 bpg.. 48.1 fg
Lebron: 26.4 ppg.. 9.6 rpg.. 6.9 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.54 bpg.. 44.6 fg


These gaps between Jordan and Lebron are WIDENING as Lebron continues to get older - by the end of Lebron's career, it's most likely that his playoff assist averages are less than Jordan.

Btw, there's never been a #1 option in history that scored 5-10 more ppg on better efficiency that wasn't considered the FAR better player.. So don't make the mistake of thinking Lebron close to MJ.

[robert de niro]

Ah yes, the classic stat known as VORP

[3ball]

I'm not saying Lebron is better than Jordan, this article is very interesting for those who are interested in these stats and basketball in general.

http://www.sports-reference.com/blog/2016/01/lebron-passes-jordan-to-become-all-time-vorp-king/



Looking at the top 50 in VORP says the following:


Jason Kidd > Magic

Drexler > Shaq

Reggie Miller > Chris Paul, Dwayne Wade, Gary Payton

Jeff Hornacek > Patrick Ewing, Kevin Durant, Dwight Howard

Shawn Marion > Moses Malone, Chris Webber

Karl Malone > Kareem, Duncan, Shaq

Barkley, > Kareem, Duncan, Shaq

Garnett > Kareem, Duncan, Shaq

Dr. J > Magic, Hakeem, Shaq

Manu, Eddie Jones, Horace Grant > Durant, Ewing, Dwight Howard


That's why you can't look at VORP, Win Shares, PER, BPM or any advanced stat individually - you will arrive at many erroneous conclusions like the ones above.

[sdot_thadon]

Nice to see you guys butt hurt once again by a metric saying lebron is mj's peer. :cheers:
No one should draw any conclusion either way with one metric. A bunch in concert, with proper context and then you're on to something. 3ball no metric is perfect, there isn't a such thing. EVERYTHING needs proper context.

[3ball]

Nice to see you guys butt hurt once again by a metric saying lebron is mj's peer. :cheers:
No one should draw any conclusion either way with one metric. A bunch in concert, with proper context and then you're on to something. 3ball no metric is perfect, there isn't a such thing. EVERYTHING needs proper context.
All the metrics say MJ is far better.

Seriously, what's the case for Lebron over MJ?... Tell me what it is, or stfu and get back in your hole.

this ****** won't have shit to say

[sdot_thadon]

All the metrics say MJ is far better.

Seriously, what's the case for Lebron over MJ?... Tell me what it is, or stfu and get back in your hole.

this ****** won't have shit to say
This is the funniest shit ever. I've never said Lebron was better than Mj, just that he's his peer. There's tons and metric tons of evidence for that. Maybe you can pull a Tanya harding on lebron in hopes to slow him down bro. All these posts don't do anything for you.:lol

[3ball]

This is the funniest shit ever. I've never said Lebron was better than Mj, just that he's his peer. There's tons and metric tons of evidence for that. Maybe you can pull a Tanya harding on lebron in hopes to slow him down bro. All these posts don't do anything for you.:lol


You can't show me metrics that say Lebron is MJ's peer except stuff like VORP, which means nothing, as demonstrated in the first post of this page.

I can show you metrics that say Hornacek is Durant's peer too: VORP

[Straight_Ballin]

This is the funniest shit ever. I've never said Lebron was better than Mj, just that he's his peer. There's tons and metric tons of evidence for that. Maybe you can pull a Tanya harding on lebron in hopes to slow him down bro. All these posts don't do anything for you.:lol

Everyone knows he's Jordan's peer. So is Kobe. So was Bird. So was Magic. The list continues. What we want to see is someone that is as good or better than MJ at the game of basketball. 6 rings as the man with 6 FMVP is all we ask. The last time anyone saw GOAT level greatness was in 1998. That was 18 years ago bro. Those who watched Bird and Magic got to see someone overtake them and become GOAT. Why can't anyone overtake MJ?

Wake us up when it happens.

Yawn.......:sleeping

[Deuce Bigalow]

Well there goes VORP

[stalkerforlife]

Is VORP good? Can the Cavs get him? You know they'll try.

[dhsilv]

Interestingly enough James passed Jordan in playoff VORP last year and should pass MJ in playoff WS this assuming they have a decent run.

[3ball]

.
MJ scores literally 20% more on better FG%, TS% and ORtg... That's all the efficiency measures.


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 46.2 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg


MJ's the GOAT and it isn't close - the stats speak for themselves.
.

[coin24]

He also passed MJ in letting his opponent win FMVP.. Twice:lol

Greatness