LeBron James has the most points scored and assisted per game

[AirBonner]

In NBA finals history.

2015 LeBron James 57.7
1993 Michael Jordan 55.3

[TheMarkMadsen]

+1 for losing FMVP to the other teams sixth man

[FreezingTsmoove]

i wonder what it is when you adjust the garbage time points and assists out from game 4, 5, and 6

[TheMarkMadsen]

But for real, Jordan scored more, was waaayyy more efficient, scored more within the flow of the offense and oh yeah.. didn't loose the last 3 games of the series or get outscored by a teammate in any game of the series

[AirBonner]

But for real, Jordan scored more, was waaayyy more efficient, scored more within the flow of the offense and oh yeah.. didn't loose the last 3 games of the series or get outscored by a teammate in any game of the series
And yes that is true. I'm just saying in this case LeBron topped him.

[La Frescobaldi]

It was, truly, a phenomenal display of aggression, power, smarts, and skill

[raprap]

But for real, Jordan scored more, was waaayyy more efficient, scored more within the flow of the offense and oh yeah.. didn't loose the last 3 games of the series or get outscored by a teammate in any game of the series
That's why Jordans the GOAT. You don't need to bash bron for having an accomplishment over him.

[TheMarkMadsen]

That's why Jordans the GOAT. You don't need to bash bron for having an accomplishment over him.


it's not bashing to point out the differences and show the obvious which is that Jordan's 93 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15 Lebrons series and its not an "accomplishment" when your randomly combining two stats from a losing series and a winning series, the goal of the game is to win, not to accumulate stats.

[AirBonner]

it's not bashing to point out the differences and show the obvious which is that Jordan's 93 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15 Lebrons series and its not an "accomplishment" when your randomly combining two stats from a losing series and a winning series, the goal of the game is to win, not to accumulate stats.
This is a thread is about stats.

[LAKingKobe]

it's not bashing to point out the differences and show the obvious which is that Jordan's 93 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15 Lebrons series and its not an "accomplishment" when your randomly combining two stats from a losing series and a winning series, the goal of the game is to win, not to accumulate stats.
You are so insecure man. this is the mentality that most haters have to prop up Jordan. You dismiss it because it doesn't align with your opinions.

[plowking]

it's not bashing to point out the differences and show the obvious which is that Jordan's 93 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15 Lebrons series and its not an "accomplishment" when your randomly combining two stats from a losing series and a winning series, the goal of the game is to win, not to accumulate stats.

So why not talk about Bron's teammates? Bron did plenty, the rest of the team didn't.

[raprap]

it's not bashing to point out the differences and show the obvious which is that Jordan's 93 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15 Lebrons series and its not an "accomplishment" when your randomly combining two stats from a losing series and a winning series, the goal of the game is to win, not to accumulate stats.
Its an accomplishment about stats. We all know The Cavs lost to the warriors. Stop being insecure for once :cheers:

[iBandwagon]

In NBA finals history.

2015 LeBron James 57.7
1993 Michael Jordan 55.3
That's cool, he must have the most Finals wins and FMVPs too, right?

[3ball]

So why not talk about Bron's teammates? Bron did plenty, the rest of the team didn't.


Lebron doesn't elevate his teammates - he never has... The story is always how his teammates underperformed in the playoffs, especially against the best teams... This is what happened in 2009 ECF and 2010 ECF (also 2014 and 2015 Finals).

Otoh, Jordan's teammates played much better alongside him, so his teams never underachieved by losing as the favorite, or even when it was 50/50 - the only times he lost in the playoffs were when NOBODY thought his team would win... Since Jordan's teams never underachieved, his #1 seed Cavs would've defeated the Magic and Celtics in 2009/2010, AS EXPECTED.

Btw, we know why Lebron's teammates routinely underperform against the best teams - it's statistical fact that Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers, and their diminished playmaking capacity makes it harder for them to perform well against the best teams.

Otoh, Jordan's sheer force of will and off-ball style was ideally-suited to elevate teammates once the competition kicks up a tier in the playoffs - and this is what happened.

[SaltyMeatballs]

If Jordan took the same amount of shots LeBron did, he'd be leading him easily.

[Mr. Jabbar]

+1 for losing FMVP to the other teams sixth man

counts as assist :lol

[plowking]

Lebron doesn't elevate his teammates - he never has... The story is always how his teammates underperformed in the playoffs, especially against the best teams... This is what happened in 2009 ECF and 2010 ECF (also 2014 and 2015 Finals).

Kyrie actually got better statistically once James arrived.
Mozgov got better once he arrived in Cleveland.
JR Smith had his stats increase the year he was traded to Cleveland.
Tristan Thompson became a more productive player per36 minutes with Lebron there.

All key pieces somehow playing better again.

You know the biggest thing though? They went from being the first pick in the draft, to being in the finals. So Lebron literally transformed them from worst team in the league, to 2nd best.

Clearly doing something wrong.


Otoh, Jordan's teammates played much better alongside him, so his teams never underachieved by losing as the favorite, or even when it was 50/50 - the only times he lost in the playoffs were when NOBODY thought his team would win... Since Jordan's teams never underachieved, his #1 seed Cavs would've defeated the Magic and Celtics in 2009/2010, AS EXPECTED.



By all metrics you use, no, Jordan didn't make them better, and not to the extent that Bron did. Bron is less selfish, takes less shots, shares the ball more, so naturally his teammates get more chances to showcase their skills.

Next.

[TheMarkMadsen]

So why not talk about Bron's teammates? Bron did plenty, the rest of the team didn't.

He played iso ball the entire time, spent 22 seconds almost every possession holding the ball with 1 on 1 coverage. That isn't winning basketball, that was hero ball to the fullest and was a glorified Allen Iverson series

AI 01 finals = 35.6 ppg on 40.7%

Lebron 2015 finals = 35.8 on 39.8%


the best chance they had was to play Mozgof and TT together, but they couldn't do that as much as they should have because it created spacing problems from Lebron

08 Gasol = 14.7pp on 53%

15 Mozgof = 14 ppg on 55%

and that includes game 5 when he only got 9 freaking minutes after dropping 28/10 the game before.. Mozgoff goes for 28/10 and Lebron has a bad game and Mozgoff gets punished for that since when Mozgoff and TT were on the court together the spacing wasn't there for Lebron to play his 1 on 1 iso hero ball. Mozgoff only gets 9 minutes following game 4 where he was the best player on his team

[3ball]

Kyrie actually got better statistically once James arrived.
Mozgov got better once he arrived in Cleveland.
JR Smith had his stats increase the year he was traded to Cleveland.
Tristan Thompson became a more productive player per36 minutes with Lebron there.


You omitted Kevin Love from your delusion... Remember him??.. His stats cratered from 26/13 to 16/9... That's a far larger decrease than Kyrie's 1 ppg increase and the other players' similarly marginal increases COMBINED.

Also, Kyrie's APG declined from 6.2 to 5.1, even though he had MORE scorers to pass to with Lebron and Love there.

Lebron's ball-dominance from the forward position simply reduced Kyrie's playmaking, just like he does with all his teammates - and their diminished playmaking capacity makes it harder for them to perform well against the best teams.. This is why Lebron's teammates always underperform against the best teams, which results in 2/6.





Bron is less selfish, takes less shots, shares the ball more, so naturally his teammates get more chances to showcase their skills.


^^^^ Ridiculous - Lebron and Harden are the only non-point guards in the top 50 for time of possession.. In the Finals, Lebron's time of possession was a ridiculous 12.0 minutes per game, which was 50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.1 minutes.

So Lebron's stats are achieved by ridiculous time of possession AND the reduction of teammates stats (Love, Bosh, Wade, etc) - these are statistical facts.

His high time of possession and reduction of teammates stats means he's far more selfish than the off-ball Jordan, who achieved his stats with far lower time of possession and without reducing teammate stats.

Jordan's off-ball style and sheer force of will was ideally-suited to elevate teammates once the competition kicks up a tier in the playoffs - so unlike Lebron's teammates who routinely underperform against the best teams, Jordan's teammates played better alongside him, which enabled 6/6 in Finals.

[3ball]

.
It's statistical fact that MJ has the most points + assists in NBA history:


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 46.2 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg


MJ scores literally 20% more on better FG%, TS% and ORtg... That's all the efficiency measures.

Other than defensive rebounds, MJ beats Lebron ACROSS THE BOARD (including assists when you factor TO's)
.

[aj1987]

He played iso ball the entire time, spent 22 seconds almost every possession holding the ball with 1 on 1 coverage. That isn't winning basketball, that was hero ball to the fullest and was a glorified Allen Iverson series

AI 01 finals = 35.6 ppg on 40.7%

Lebron 2015 finals = 35.8 on 39.8%


the best chance they had was to play Mozgof and TT together, but they couldn't do that as much as they should have because it created spacing problems from Lebron

08 Gasol = 14.7pp on 53%

15 Mozgof = 14 ppg on 55%

and that includes game 5 when he only got 9 freaking minutes after dropping 28/10 the game before.. Mozgoff goes for 28/10 and Lebron has a bad game and Mozgoff gets punished for that since when Mozgoff and TT were on the court together the spacing wasn't there for Lebron to play his 1 on 1 iso hero ball. Mozgoff only gets 9 minutes following game 4 where he was the best player on his team
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

LeBron was holding the ball for 22 seconds every possession?

My post from another thread.

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.



If Jordan took the same amount of shots LeBron did, he'd be leading him easily.
MJ took 199 shots in '93 and LeBron took 196. He did have Pippen, who was a better playmaker, and didn't average too many assists.

[AirBonner]

.
It's statistical fact that MJ has the most points + assists in NBA history:


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 46.2 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg


MJ scores literally 20% more on better FG%, TS% and ORtg... That's all the efficiency measures.

Other than defensive rebounds, MJ beats Lebron ACROSS THE BOARD (including assists when you factor TO's)
.
Bulls without Jordan: 50 wins Cavs without Bron: lottery

[SexSymbol]

He played horribly

[Im Still Ballin]

LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland’s field goal percentage dropped for 40% to 17%, and it’s offensive efficiency fell from 97.3 to 50.9.

According to Tom Haberstroh of ESPN, James accounted for 38.3% of Cleveland's points in the Finals, the second-highest percentage of team points in Finals history. He is edged only by Michael Jordan scoring 38.4% of the Bulls' points in the 1993 Finals, which Chicago won.

He was responsible for an average of 57.7 points per game on points he either scored or assisted on; which in turn, accounted for 62% of the Cavaliers’s points in the NBA Finals.

According to ESPN Stats & Information, by pulling the Elo Ratings for each team to make the NBA Finals before the series began, and taking into account a team’s home-court advantage, it was able to project each team’s chances of winning prior to the Finals. What was discovered was that James’ teams had the lowest expected winning percentage — 37% — out of any of the other players on this list. If you consider that James still managed to win two titles with those odds stacked against him, the four losses don’t seem so terrible. And if we look at the 2015 Finals by itself, we’ll realize that James did was pretty much unprecedented.

“If we look at a multi-year Statistical Plus/Minus talent projection for every NBA Finals team, this Cavs team ranks as the ninth-least talented NBA finalist since 1985. (By contrast, Cleveland’s opponents, the mighty Golden State Warriors, rank as the 14th-most talented.) Remove James, and things get even more dire; his supporting cast ranks as the third-worst team carried by its best player to the NBA Finals since 1985.”

If you were to take James’s talent rating (6.6) and replace it with that of the league-average player (0.0), the Cavaliers’s talent rating would dwindle to -0.1. So what the King ended up doing was carrying one of the three-worst supporting casts in NBA history to within two games of a championship. Of course, what we forgot to mention was that FiveThirtyEight also determined that these Golden State Warriors finished the year with the second-highest peak Elo Rating (1822) in NBA history and third-highest Composite Elo Rating of all time (1796), making them one of the best basketball teams ever. And what James did against them remarkable.

When LeBron was NOT on the floor, JR Smith, Matthew Dellavedova, James Jones and Iman Shumpert DID NOT MAKE A SHOT in the NBA Finals

Without LeBron James on the floor this series.
JR Smith 0/9 FG
Delly 0/7 FG
J. Jones 0/3 FG
Shumpert 0/2 FG
Total 0/21 FG


http://giant.gfycat.com/FlimsySpitefulButterfly.gif

[Im Still Ballin]

[B][SIZE="7"]Without James on the floor, [COLOR="Blue"]Cleveland

[3ball]

Jordan's 41 ppg on 51% couldn't realistically be improved, whereas Lebron's 35.8 ppg on 39% had MUCH room for improvement.. Give Lebron 50% shooting and good defense so he doesn't let a role player be > Curry, and the Cavs easily win.

Ditto for Lebron's 22 ppg on 35% in 2007 Finals.. Game 1 was an 8-point game in 4th quarter despite 5-15 and 10 points from Lebron... Games 3 and 4 were one-possession nail-biters despite 24 pts on 39% shooting, and 25 points on 33% shooting from Lebron.

So once again - give Lebron 50% shooting (just like Kobe, Melo and Bonzi shot against that same Spurs team), plus good defense so a role player doesn't become > Duncan, and the Cavs EASILY WIN.

So don't make excuses for Lebron's shitty play.
.

[Im Still Ballin]

You're wrong 2ball

[3ball]

Bulls without Jordan: 50 wins Cavs without Bron: lottery


Jordan's Bulls were 3-peat champions that fell to 2nd Round, while Lebron's Cavs were 2nd Round losers in 2010, that fell to lottery.

And the Cavs didn't just lose Lebron in 2011 - they lost Mo Williams, Varejao, Shaq, Delonte and Zydrunas, who accounted for 52 ppg (over half the team's points).





Bulls without Jordan: 50 wins Cavs without Bron: lottery


Again, the Cavs didn't only lose Lebron in 2011 - at the start of the 2011 season, the Cavs were missing Shaq, Delonte and Zydrunas, who averaged a combined 30 ppg in 2010 - this was exactly 30% of the team's points.

But keep disregarding the 30 ppg of these guys, and only pay attention to Lebron's 30 ppg.. :rolleyes: .. And later in the season, Varejao and Mo Williams went down and missed 50 games each..

Overall, the 2011 Cavs lost 2 starters (Shaq, Mo Williams) and 3 other key players (Varejao, Delonte, Zydrunas) - these guys scored a combined 52 ppg, which is more than half the Cavs points.

Take this L

[3ball]

no i'm not i'm still ballin

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.


Lebron's teammates ALWAYS underperform in the Finals and against the best teams (see 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, 2014 Finals, 2015 Finals).

And we know why - it's statistical fact that he turns teammates into play-finishers (he lowers their APG while increasing their assisted rate), and their simple play-finishing roles are no longer successful against the best teams.. Their diminished playmaking capacity makes it more difficult for them to perform well against the best teams in the playoffs.

And it's all Lebron's fault - HIS style of play turns teammates into play-finishers, and obviously, it's highly suboptimal.





LeBron was holding the ball for 22 seconds every possession?

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace.


Lebron holding the ball isn't the only way to slow down the pace - that's ridiculous... The team can move the ball and use the shot clock without Lebron just holding it, LIKE OTHER TEAMS DO.

Lebron's time of possession in the Finals was a ridiculous 12 minutes per game (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) - this was 50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.1 minutes.. No team can win a Finals with 1 guy holding the ball that long.





MJ took 199 shots in '93 and LeBron took 196. He did have Pippen, who was a better playmaker, and didn't average too many assists.


Jordan's 41 ppg on 51% couldn't realistically be improved, whereas Lebron's 35 ppg on 39% with zero defense had MUCH room for improvement.. The Cavs win easily if Lebron shot 50% AND played good defense, instead of missing literally 80% of his jumpers and letting a role player be > Curry.

Ditto for Lebron's 22 ppg on 35% in 2007 Finals.. Game 1 was an 8-point game in 4th quarter despite 5-15 and 10 points from Lebron... Games 3 and 4 were one-possession nail-biters despite 24 pts on 39% shooting, and 25 points on 33% shooting from Lebron.

So once again - give Lebron 50% shooting (just like Kobe, Melo and Bonzi shot against that same Spurs team), plus good defense so a role player doesn't become > Duncan, and the Cavs EASILY WIN.

So don't make excuses for Lebron's shitty play.

[3ball]

Without James on the floor, Cleveland’s field goal percentage dropped for 40% to 17%, and it’s offensive efficiency fell from 97.3 to 50.9.


Who cares - that was only 24 minutes total in the entire series.. Lebron played 274 of 298 minutes.

Furthermore, most players perform worse when the star player leaves the floor, especially if they're rusty because the star player wasn't letting them handle the ball at all.. And Lebron holds the ball for much longer than anyone BY FAR.

In the 2015 Finals, his time of possession was a ridiculous 12 minutes per game (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1), which was 50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.1 minutes.. Let that sink in..

But ultimately, Lebron's supporting cast shot better than he did in the 2015 Finals - they had eFG of 43.2%, compared to Lebron's 43.1%.. So Lebron shouldn't have shot so much if he was going to shoot that BADLY.. And obviously, he shouldn't have held the ball for so long - no team can win with 1 guy holding the ball for 12 minutes.

[Im Still Ballin]

You are wrong because when he went on the bench the FG% went down to 17% which tells us that Lebron ball willed the team to 2 wins despite the insurmountable odds

[3ball]

You are wrong because when he went on the bench the FG% went down to 17% which tells us that Lebron ball willed the team to 2 wins despite the insurmountable odds
That isn't a valid point - Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers, so they can't become playmakers instantaneously when he goes to the bench.

Furthermore, it's common for players to perform worse when the star player leaves the floor - there's no need to give Lebron props for things all other star players do - especially if the supporting cast is rusty because the star player wasn't letting them handle the ball.. And Lebron holds the ball for much longer than anyone BY FAR.

In the 2015 Finals, his time of possession was a ridiculous 12 minutes per game (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1), which was 50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.1 minutes.. Let that sink in..

But ultimately, Lebron's supporting cast shot better than he did in the 2015 Finals - they had eFG of 43.2%, compared to Lebron's 43.1%.. So Lebron shouldn't have shot so much if he was going to shoot that BADLY.. And obviously, he shouldn't have held the ball for so long - no team can win with 1 guy holding the ball for 12 minutes.
.

[3ball]

Lebron ball (is highly inefficient)


The 2015 playoffs were Lebron's first high volume playoffs and we saw what happened when the high volume (27 fga) forced him to stray from his normal diet of 3-pointers and layups - he shot an abysmal 41%.. Unfortunately, Lebron has poor efficiency at the additional isolations and pullup jumpshots required of high volume shooting - accordingly, he can't shoot well at high volume or require a double-team to PREVENT high volume.

In the Finals, he only shot 39% - it benefited the Warriors every time he shot, so they encouraged his high volume by not double-teaming.. They only double-teamed him 18 times in the entire Finals.. Compare that to MJ, where his efficient high volume caused teams to double-team him 10+ times in a single quarter, as a standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210) - teams couldn't afford high volume from Jordan, since it was accompanied by high efficiency too..

But the REAL holy grail of basketball skill is far greater than controlling pace with high volume like Lebron, or adding good efficiency to the high volume like MJ.. The real holy grail is good efficiency at high volume while winning championships because the efficient high volume must be achieved within the team concept.. Only 2 players have reached this holy grail of basketball skill (25+ shot attempts on 45% during a championship playoff run) - MJ did it 4 times (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem once (1995).. Ultimately, their elite midrange efficiency allowed them to shoot well at high volume.

Keep in mind that all fans wish their favorite player could shoot more at better efficiency.. Isn't that always the goal - to DO MORE?... Well that's what MJ did - he DID MORE (higher volume) at the better efficiency.

If Kobe or Lebron could shoot a higher volume at better efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of having BETTER efficiency at much higher volume:


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg.. 32.5 fga
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg.. 26.8 fga
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 46.2 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 114 ORtg.. 25.8 fga
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg.. 27.7 ga
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg.. 24.8 fga

[Quickening]

You are wrong because when he went on the bench the FG% went down to 17% which tells us that Lebron ball willed the team to 2 wins despite the insurmountable odds
this :applause:

[sdot_thadon]

You are wrong because when he went on the bench the FG% went down to 17% which tells us that Lebron ball willed the team to 2 wins despite the insurmountable odds
This.

[3ball]

This.
That isn't a valid point - Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers, so they can't become playmakers instantaneously when he goes to the bench.

Furthermore, it's common for players to perform worse when the star player leaves the floor - there's no need to give Lebron props for things all other star players do - especially if the supporting cast is rusty because the star player wasn't letting them handle the ball.. And Lebron holds the ball for much longer than anyone BY FAR.

In the 2015 Finals, his time of possession was a ridiculous 12 minutes per game (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1), which was 50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.1 minutes.. Let that sink in..

But ultimately, Lebron's supporting cast shot better than he did in the 2015 Finals - they had eFG of 43.2%, compared to Lebron's 43.1%.. So Lebron shouldn't have shot so much if he was going to shoot that BADLY.. And obviously, he shouldn't have held the ball for so long - no team can win with 1 guy holding the ball for 12 minutes.

[3ball]

This.
Furthermore, it wasn't insurmountable odds, because Lebron's 35.8 ppg on 39% had MUCH room for improvement.. The Cavs win easily if we give Lebron 50% shooting AND good defense so he doesn't let a role player be > Curry.

Ditto for Lebron's 22 ppg on 35% in 2007 Finals.. Game 1 was an 8-point game in 4th quarter despite 5-15 and 10 points from Lebron... Games 3 and 4 were one-possession nail-biters despite 24 pts on 39% shooting, and 25 points on 33% shooting from Lebron.

So once again - give Lebron 50% shooting (just like Kobe, Melo and Bonzi shot against that same Spurs team), plus good defense so a role player doesn't become > Duncan, and the Cavs EASILY WIN.

So don't make excuses for Lebron's shitty play.
.

[3ball]

Furthermore, it wasn't insurmountable odds, because Lebron's 35.8 ppg on 39% had MUCH room for improvement.. The Cavs win easily if we give Lebron 50% shooting AND good defense so he doesn't let a role player be > Curry.

Ditto for Lebron's 22 ppg on 35% in 2007 Finals.. Game 1 was an 8-point game in 4th quarter despite 5-15 and 10 points from Lebron... Games 3 and 4 were one-possession nail-biters despite 24 pts on 39% shooting, and 25 points on 33% shooting from Lebron.

So once again - give Lebron 50% shooting (just like Kobe, Melo and Bonzi shot against that same Spurs team), plus good defense so a role player doesn't become > Duncan, and the Cavs EASILY WIN.

So don't make excuses for Lebron's shitty play.


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[aj1987]

Lebron's teammates ALWAYS underperform in the Finals and against the best teams (see 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, 2014 Finals, 2015 Finals).

And we know why - it's statistical fact that he turns teammates into play-finishers (he lowers their APG while increasing their assisted rate), and their simple play-finishing roles are no longer successful against the best teams.. Their diminished playmaking capacity makes it more difficult for them to perform well against the best teams in the playoffs.

And it's all Lebron's fault - HIS style of play turns teammates into play-finishers, and obviously, it's highly suboptimal.



Lebron holding the ball isn't the only way to slow down the pace - that's ridiculous... The team can move the ball and use the shot clock without Lebron just holding it, LIKE OTHER TEAMS DO.

Lebron's time of possession in the Finals was a ridiculous 12 minutes per game (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) - this was 50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.1 minutes.. No team can win a Finals with 1 guy holding the ball that long.

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.





Jordan's 41 ppg on 51% couldn't realistically be improved, whereas Lebron's 35.8 ppg on 39% had MUCH room for improvement.. Give Lebron 50% shooting and good defense so he doesn't let a role player be > Curry, and the Cavs easily win.

Ditto for Lebron's 22 ppg on 35% in 2007 Finals.. Game 1 was an 8-point game in 4th quarter despite 5-15 and 10 points from Lebron... Games 3 and 4 were one-possession nail-biters despite 24 pts on 39% shooting, and 25 points on 33% shooting from Lebron.

So once again - give Lebron 50% shooting (just like Kobe, Melo and Bonzi shot against that same Spurs team), plus good defense so a role player doesn't become > Duncan, and the Cavs EASILY WIN.

So don't make excuses for Lebron's shitty play.

That's not what we were talking about, you ignorant shit.


If Jordan took the same amount of shots LeBron did, he'd be leading him easily.

MJ took 199 shots in '93 and LeBron took 196. He did have Pippen, who was a better playmaker, and didn't average too many assists.


That isn't a valid point - Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers, so they can't become playmakers instantaneously when he goes to the bench.
You do know that JR, Shump, etc. all have been in the league for a ton of years and started playing with LeBron just last season, right? How does one season of playing with LeBron make them forget what they learned for years?

Just stop talking out of your ass, you uneducated shit.

[sdot_thadon]

Magic Johnson turned guys into play finishers too nimrod, it's what elite playmaker do. Maybe you should have spent the last 5 years watching real basketball instead of 20 year old reel to reels and you'd have the slightest ****ing clue of what happened in the finals.

It's likely the greatest carry job of this era, perhaps more. On top of that it just sweetens over time. The team he drug the Cavs to 2 wins against undermanned is on pace to shatter Mjs bulls win record. Even if they don't it's pretty clear exactly what gs is, and what lebron nearly did. Nice to see you butt hurt though, I'm sure they got pills for that skool.

[3ball]

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.


Don't be ridiculous - Shumpert, Delly and JR know how to move the ball - they know how to pass - they're pros.. They don't need IQ to move the ball - you're just making excuses.... Really bad ones.

Lebron holding the ball isn't the only way to slow down the pace - so don't act like it's the only way - that's dumb as ****.. The team can move the ball and use the shot clock without Lebron just holding it, LIKE OTHER TEAMS DO.

But that isn't what happened - Lebron's time of possession in the Finals was a ridiculous 12 minutes per game (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) - this was 50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.1 minutes.. No team can win a Finals with 1 guy holding the ball that long.





For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.


No surprise - Lebron's teammates ALWAYS underperform in the Finals and against the best teams (see 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, 2014 Finals, 2015 Finals).

And we know why - it's statistical fact that he turns teammates into play-finishers (he lowers their APG while increasing their assisted rate), and their simple play-finishing roles are no longer successful against the best teams.. Their diminished playmaking capacity makes it more difficult for them to perform well against the best teams in the playoffs.

And it's all Lebron's fault - HIS style of play turns teammates into play-finishers, which causes their underperformance against the best teams.. and obviously, it's highly suboptimal and leads to 2/6.





MJ took 199 shots in '93 and LeBron took 196. He did have Pippen, who was a better playmaker, and didn't average too many assists.


Jordan's 41 ppg on 51% couldn't realistically be improved, whereas Lebron's 35 ppg on 39% with zero defense had MUCH room for improvement.. The Cavs win easily if Lebron shot 50% AND played good defense, instead of missing literally 80% of his jumpers and letting a role player be > Curry.

Ditto for Lebron's 22 ppg on 35% in 2007 Finals.. Game 1 was an 8-point game in 4th quarter despite 5-15 and 10 points from Lebron... Games 3 and 4 were one-possession nail-biters despite 24 pts on 39% shooting, and 25 points on 33% shooting from Lebron.

So once again - give Lebron 50% shooting (just like Kobe, Melo and Bonzi shot against that same Spurs team), plus good defense so a role player doesn't become > Duncan, and the Cavs EASILY WIN.

So don't make excuses for Lebron's shitty play.
.

[aj1987]

Don't be ridiculous - Shumpert, Delly and JR know how to move the ball - they know how to pass - they're pros.. They don't need IQ to move the ball - you're just making excuses.... Really bad ones.

Lebron holding the ball isn't the only way to slow down the pace - so don't act like it's the only way - that's dumb as ****.. The team can move the ball and use the shot clock without Lebron just holding it, LIKE OTHER TEAMS DO.

But that isn't what happened - Lebron's time of possession in the Finals was a ridiculous 12 minutes per game (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) - this was 50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.1 minutes.. No team can win a Finals with 1 guy holding the ball that long.
Watch the games, you ****ing idiot. This is what happens if you judge players using advanced stats on NBA.com instead of actually watching the games.




No surprise - Lebron's teammates ALWAYS underperform in the Finals and against the best teams (see 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, 2014 Finals, 2015 Finals).

And we know why - it's statistical fact that he turns teammates into play-finishers (he lowers their APG while increasing their assisted rate), and their simple play-finishing roles are no longer successful against the best teams.. Their diminished playmaking capacity makes it more difficult for them to perform well against the best teams in the playoffs.

And it's all Lebron's fault - HIS style of play turns teammates into play-finishers, which causes their underperformance against the best teams.. and obviously, it's highly suboptimal and leads to 2/6.
:facepalm :facepalm

Christ, you're retarded!

You do know that JR, Shump, etc. all have been in the league for a ton of years and started playing with LeBron just last season, right? How does one season of playing with LeBron make them forget what they learned for years?

There isn't a button which LeBron pushes to "turn" his teammates into "play-finishers". That still doesn't explain why JR, Delly, Shump, etc. shot like hot garbage from the 3. You really can't blame LeBron for them missing WIDE open shots. Oh wait. You're 3ball, the resident retard. You'll find a way to blame him.

You really don't understand basketball and you should stop talking about it.

Again, I'll just leave this here. You can bring up your cherrypicked arguments and opinions all you want, but facts are facts.


LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

[catch24]

I don't think Lebron played as great of a series the fanboys claim he did, but to literally blame him and ONLY him for Cleveland losing last year? Absurd.

3ball is either trolling or a world-class fool.

[3ball]

Magic Johnson turned guys into play finishers too nimrod, it's what elite playmaker do. Maybe you should have spent the last 5 years watching real basketball instead of 20 year old reel to reels and you'd have the slightest ****ing clue of what happened in the finals.


Haha, I got you to reach... You don't know shit - Magic gave the ball to Kareem and Worthy and let them create their own shot.

More importantly, ALL teams have a low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to: the point guard... Point guards also have high time of possession - so Magic's low-assisted, high time of possession was just like every other team.

Otoh, Lebron's low-assisted, high time of possession style comes from the FORWARD position - so he adds a 2nd low-assisted, high time of possession player on the floor, thus reducing the team's assist capacity and teammates' time with the ball compared to other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession.. But I know this is too complicated for you.





It's likely the greatest carry job of this era, perhaps more. On top of that it just sweetens over time. The team he drug the Cavs to 2 wins against undermanned is on pace to shatter Mjs bulls win record. Even if they don't it's pretty clear exactly what gs is, and what lebron nearly did. Nice to see you butt hurt though, I'm sure they got pills for that skool.


In 2001, the Sixers showed the exact same margins vs. the Lakers - they lost by 8 ppg and had 8 less ORtg, just like the 2015 Cavs vs Warriors.

So Lebron's 35 ppg on 39% is exactly the same garbage as Iverson's same stats in 2000 - Iverson ALSO found marginal success and it was against a more dominant team (Lakers were 11-0 in playoffs before Iverson beat them in Game 1).

So don't brag about Lebron's 35 ppg on 39% with zero defense... There was MUCH room for improvement.. The Cavs win easily if Lebron shot 50% AND played good defense, instead of missing literally 80% of his jumpers and letting a role player be > Curry.

[plowking]

He played iso ball the entire time, spent 22 seconds almost every possession holding the ball with 1 on 1 coverage. That isn't winning basketball, that was hero ball to the fullest and was a glorified Allen Iverson series

Right... It was winning basketball for two out of the six games in the series against a far more talented team... Yet now, in retrospect, after they lost, you can give me this great rundown on how it isn't...

Somehow they won using that tactic, twice, but then when it didn't, it wasn't a good strategy. :oldlol:

Lebron's shooting % changed by 1% over the first 3 games where they went 2-1, and over the last 3 games where they went 0-3... So what was it? You're telling me that Lebron's style somehow became non winning basketball because of 1% change in shooting percentage?




the best chance they had was to play Mozgof and TT together, but they couldn't do that as much as they should have because it created spacing problems from Lebron


Yeah, sure. Their best chance was to rely on Mozgov, who this year is putting up trash and on the trade block, and TT, who is useless outside of rebounding and dunking.



08 Gasol = 14.7pp on 53%

15 Mozgof = 14 ppg on 55%

and that includes game 5 when he only got 9 freaking minutes after dropping 28/10 the game before.. Mozgoff goes for 28/10 and Lebron has a bad game and Mozgoff gets punished for that since when Mozgoff and TT were on the court together the spacing wasn't there for Lebron to play his 1 on 1 iso hero ball. Mozgoff only gets 9 minutes following game 4 where he was the best player on his team

Are you implying that they are even close as players? Iggy the finals MVP put up 15ppg or whatever it was, and they were all trash too. Being left open like him and Mozgov were, and being dared to shoot in Iggy's case isn't anything special.
Mozgov being left alone while other players trapped and hedged to Bron's side of the court isn't anything special. As he should score that amount of points.

[plowking]

I don't think Lebron played as great of a series the fanboys claim he did, but to literally blame him and ONLY him for Cleveland losing last year? Absurd.

3ball is either trolling or a world-class fool.

We're told Kobe's 32ppg on 42% shooting was great against Orlando, but somehow Bron's 36ppg on 40% shooting is not that great a series. Okay.

[catch24]

We're told Kobe's 32ppg on 42% shooting was great against Orlando, but somehow Bron's 36ppg on 40% shooting is not that great a series. Okay.

Depends on how great. I've read posts here claiming its one of the greatest series ever, and I would disagree.

Just a great series from an ATG? Sure, but that's different.

Funny how everything goes back to Kobe somehow. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Depends on how great. I've read posts here claiming its one of the greatest series ever, and I would disagree.

Just a great series from an ATG? Sure, but that's different.

Funny how everything goes back to Kobe somehow. :oldlol:
In 2001, the Sixers showed the exact same margins vs. the Lakers - they lost by 8 ppg and had 8 less ORtg, just like the 2015 Cavs vs Warriors.

So Lebron's 35 ppg on 39% is akin to Iverson's 35 ppg on 41% in 2000 - Iverson ALSO found marginal success and it was against a more dominant team (Lakers were 11-0 in playoffs before Iverson beat them in Game 1).

So I wouldn't overrate Lebron's 35 ppg on 39% with zero defense... Many players have done far better, and there was MUCH room for improvement.. The Cavs win easily if Lebron shot 50% AND played good defense, instead of missing literally 80% of his jumpers and letting a role player be > Curry.

[plowking]

So I wouldn't overrate Lebron's 35 ppg on 39% with zero defense...

This dude doesn't even have basic math skills and we're supposed to take his opinion seriously? :oldlol:

[3ball]

This dude doesn't even have basic math skills and we're supposed to take his opinion seriously? :oldlol:
In 2001, the Sixers showed the same margins vs. the Lakers - they lost by approximately 7 ppg with 7 less ORtg, just like the 2015 Cavs vs Warriors.

So Lebron's 35.8 ppg on 39.8% is akin to Iverson's 35.6 ppg on 40.7% in 2000 - Iverson ALSO found marginal success and it was against a more dominant team (Lakers were 11-0 in playoffs before Iverson beat them in Game 1).

So I wouldn't overrate Lebron's 35 ppg on 39% with zero defense... Many players have done far better, and there was MUCH room for improvement.. The Cavs win easily if Lebron shot 50% AND played good defense, instead of missing literally 80% of his jumpers and letting a role player be > Curry.

[plowking]

This dude just copied and pasted the entire thing again? :oldlol:

Stay losing bro. And your math is still wrong. :oldlol:

[3ball]

And your math is still wrong.


what part

i double and triple-checked.. :banana:
.

[sdot_thadon]

Keep on dancing bum, what's amazing is out of the 1000's of posts you have such a low percentage of them are spent actually replying to points that smash you to bits. You probably rocking a lower than 10% post efficiency. Lebron owns your soul.:biggums:

[Straight_Ballin]

Keep on dancing bum, what's amazing is out of the 1000's of posts you have such a low percentage of them are spent actually replying to points that smash you to bits. You probably rocking a lower than 10% post efficiency. Lebron owns your soul.:biggums:

A guy who is 2/6 after collusion isn't ruining 3ball's soul or anyone else's for that matter. Where do you guys come up with this stuff? :lol

[3ball]

Keep on dancing bum, what's amazing is out of the 1000's of posts you have such a low percentage of them are spent actually replying to points that smash you to bits. You probably rocking a lower than 10% post efficiency. Lebron owns your soul


An honest assessment would be about 2/3 - that's the proportion of posts I respond to directly - that's like Curry's TS.. I'm happy with that.. :hammertime:


Here was my last response destroying you (that you ran from):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12054534&postcount=46



aj1987.... dead:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12054521&postcount=43



Straight Ballin... set straight:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12054497&postcount=34


http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ll7b17fk5t1qcf5lvo1_500.gif

[aj1987]

A guy who is 2/6 after collusion isn't ruining 3ball's soul or anyone else's for that matter. Where do you guys come up with this stuff? :lol
Your and 3ball's existence say otherwise.

[KiiiiNG]

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin]LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[KiiiiNG]

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin][B][SIZE="7"]Without James on the floor, [COLOR="Blue"]Cleveland

[livinglegend]

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin][B][SIZE="7"]Without James on the floor, [COLOR="Blue"]Cleveland

[livinglegend]

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin]LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[livinglegend]

Kyrie actually got better statistically once James arrived.
Mozgov got better once he arrived in Cleveland.
JR Smith had his stats increase the year he was traded to Cleveland.
Tristan Thompson became a more productive player per36 minutes with Lebron there.

All key pieces somehow playing better again.

You know the biggest thing though? They went from being the first pick in the draft, to being in the finals. So Lebron literally transformed them from worst team in the league, to 2nd best.

Clearly doing something wrong.



By all metrics you use, no, Jordan didn't make them better, and not to the extent that Bron did. Bron is less selfish, takes less shots, shares the ball more, so naturally his teammates get more chances to showcase their skills.

Next.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[livinglegend]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

LeBron was holding the ball for 22 seconds every possession?

My post from another thread.

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.



MJ took 199 shots in '93 and LeBron took 196. He did have Pippen, who was a better playmaker, and didn't average too many assists.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[livinglegend]

You are wrong because when he went on the bench the FG% went down to 17% which tells us that Lebron ball willed the team to 2 wins despite the insurmountable odds
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[livinglegend]

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.






That's not what we were talking about, you ignorant shit.





You do know that JR, Shump, etc. all have been in the league for a ton of years and started playing with LeBron just last season, right? How does one season of playing with LeBron make them forget what they learned for years?

Just stop talking out of your ass, you uneducated shit.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Segatti]

Lebron haters getting blown the **** out by facts :lol

[3ball]

Your and 3ball's existence say otherwise.



http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001564865/2533313961_YOU_MAD_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg

[3ball]

Lebron willed the team to 2 wins despite insurmountable odds


The odds weren't insurmountable - many players have done much better than Lebron's 35 ppg on 39% with zero defense.

The Cavs win easily if Lebron shot 50% AND played good defense, instead of missing literally 80% of his jumpers and letting a role player be > Curry.. And by Game 4, the Warriors had figured out basic Lebron-ball and won 3 straight - they would've won 10 straight at that point.

Look at the 2001 Finals - the Sixers showed the same margin of defeat vs. the Lakers - they lost by approximately 7 ppg with 7 less ORtg, just like the 2015 Cavs vs Warriors.

So Lebron's 35 ppg on 39% is akin to Iverson's 35 ppg on 40% in 2000 - Iverson ALSO found marginal success and it was against a more dominant team (Lakers were 11-0 in playoffs before Iverson beat them in Game 1).

[ImKobe]

if you watched the series, he was garbage when it mattered the most in 4th quarters early on in the series and the team carried him to 6 games despite that. Yes he had decent raw numbers in terms of ppg apg rpg but he also held the ball twice as much as the next guy on his team so the numbers were expected with the amount of shots he took and him having the ball virtually every possession he was on the floor.

I forgot which game it was early on in the series but he shot something like 4/20 in the 2nd half and it still went into overtime.

upon checking it up, it was game 2 and this is how it went

2/10 in the 3rd quarter, Cavs win the quarter 15 - 14
2/8 in the 4th, Cavs lose the quarter 25 - 28 it goes OT
0/4 in OT and Cavs win the game by 2 pts

that's 4/22 in the 2nd half of a close game and his team wins despite him shooting 18%...on the road..

Realistically, it should have been a sweep. Cavs were missing 2 of their best players and GSW were at their full health. Just got lucky the Warriors (mainly Curry) seriously underpeformed the first half of that series.

[Hey Yo]

if you watched the series, he was garbage when it mattered the most in 4th quarters early on in the series and the team carried him to 6 games despite that. Yes he had decent raw numbers in terms of ppg apg rpg but he also held the ball twice as much as the next guy on his team so the numbers were expected with the amount of shots he took and him having the ball virtually every possession he was on the floor.

I forgot which game it was early on in the series but he shot something like 4/20 in the 2nd half and it still went into overtime.

upon checking it up, it was game 2 and this is how it went

2/10 in the 3rd quarter, Cavs win the quarter 15 - 14
2/8 in the 4th, Cavs lose the quarter 25 - 28 it goes OT
0/4 in OT and Cavs win the game by 2 pts

that's 4/22 in the 2nd half of a close game and his team wins despite him shooting 18%...on the road..

Realistically, it should have been a sweep. Cavs were missing 2 of their best players and GSW were at their full health. Just got lucky the Warriors (mainly Curry) seriously underpeformed the first half of that series.
If you watched the series, you would have seen that if LeBron is garbage early on in the games, then we're watching blowouts by halftime and it doesn't matter how he plays in the 3rd and 4th.

His teammates couldn't score w/o him on the floor, yet they're the ones who carried James to 6 games???.......:facepalm

[AirFederer]

Hard to argue against this being ATG numbers. Never been sold on lenron but at least advanced statistics (not that this is) compared to others I can think of 😜

[Lebron23]

Jordan Ball ain't capable of winning 2 games vs. Warriors. He was like 1-9 without Pippen (Bulls and Wizards Days)

[Elosha]

Lebron's play in the 2015 finals was fine and he certainly wasn't the main reason they lost, given the loss of their next two best players. But he should take some of the blame in shooting so poorly when he wasn't even doubled that much. And he probably did hold onto the ball too much. Overall a very good, maybe even great Finals performance, but on the lower end of greatness. Definitely not all time great.

For those who are talking about how much Lebron's teammates FG% fell when Lebron was not on the floor, you need to take that with a huge grain of salt. I just checked, and Lebron only sat for 18 minutes in the entire series. That's an average of only 3 minutes per game when he wasn't on the floor, and 7 out of the 18 minutes minutes came when he sat early in the fourth quarter of game 4, when the Cavs were blown out.

Now for those 3 minutes/game (a minuscule sampling size) the Cavs were playing without their 3 best players and were playing with unfamiliar line-ups, new players brand new to the team (Smith and Shump), and playing an entirely different style where they were asked to create shots for three minutes, whereas Lebron was dominating the game and taking a huge amount of shots/useage for the other 39 minutes. All of these factors in my mind are significantly more important that arguing that Lebron's somehow made them all that much better for the remaining time period. Moreover, I'll bet in a significant portion of the 18 minutes missed (particularly game 4 blowout GS win) the Cavs were playing their end of the bench/rarely used players, which probably further contributed to low field goal percentage.

In summary, 18 total minutes of non-Lebron playing time in 2015 Finals is hardly a fair way or an adequate sample to argue Lebron was making them much better shooters. Sure Lebron did get them better looks at times while he played but he also shot very poorly and dominated the ball, and his teammates had to live with/adjust to that. It's very hard to adjust to playing a completely different style for 3 minutes/game before Lebron comes back onto the court and re-imposes his style onto the game.

Again, Lebron played very well, overall. He did his best with what he had to work with. It wasn't enough, but no one can claim Lebron didn't play hard enough or that he quit. Golden State was simply able to expose enough of his offensive shortcomings and control his weakened supporting cast. After game three, GS figured out the Cavs and it became a relatively easy series for them.

[sdot_thadon]

An honest assessment would be about 2/3 - that's the proportion of posts I respond to directly - that's like Curry's TS.. I'm happy with that.. :hammertime:


Here was my last response destroying you (that you ran from):


Honestly bro nobody runs from your posts, I didn't bother to respond because you didn't properly respond to mine and on top of that your post was embecilic in nature. Thats not destroying anything aside from your own sanity. But since you beg i suppose I'll kick the dog.

You continue to harp on lebron turning guys into play makers, Magic does the same. You state that magic let kareem and worthy create their own shots with zero data to back it. (It doesn't exist) you always make stupid blanket statements you present as fact. then act as if lebron being the low assisted position doesn't replace the pg and make the pg a higher assisted position playing alongside lebron.

You can downplay his finals all you want but let's see if you can produce a series where MJ carried that load and did better. (3rd option lost for most of the run, 2nd option lost for the finals.) The things that lebron has done to separate himself most are things Mj couldn't or didnt do. Doesn't mean you have to downplay them.

Stupid is as stupid does 3ball.

[aj1987]

I suck dick.
Yep. Good for you. You do it on a daily basis though.

[Lebron23]

3ball is getting destroyed again in this thread.

[KiiiiNG]

3ball is getting destroyed again in this thread.
:roll:

Dude just vanished...

Doing his best James Jordan impersonation





https://i.ytimg.com/vi/rZe780G1oWI/hqdefault.jpg

:(

:lol

[3ball]

You continue to harp on lebron turning guys into play-finishers, Magic does the same.

you act as if lebron being the low assisted position doesn't replace the pg and make the pg a higher assisted position playing alongside lebron.


Kyrie wasn't assisted at a higher rate - he was assisted on 31% of his shots in both 2014 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202681/stats/scoring/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) and 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202681/stats/scoring/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) - so you're wrong.

So again - Lebron's point guard style from the forward position gives his team TWO low-assisted, high time of possession players, which reduces the team's assist capacity and teammates' time with the ball compared to other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession.

So take this L (again and always)





You can downplay his finals all you want but let's see if you can produce a series where MJ carried that load and did better. (3rd option lost for most of the run, 2nd option lost for the finals.)


MJ has done better than 35 ppg on 39% (with zero defense) for nearly all of his entire playoff career - his playoff averages thru 1993 were 35 ppg on 51%, with great defense.

But more importantly - look at his 2nd three-peat - in 1998 Finals, Pippen averaged 15 ppg on 41%, with 6 and 8 points in final 2 games - that's worse than Mosgov's 14/8 on 55% in 2015 Finals... Meanwhile, Rodman averaged 4/8 on 37%... That's worse than Tristan Thompson's 10/13 on 50%.

MJ had LESS HELP in 1998 Finals, than Lebron had in 2015 Finals - the aforementioned stats speak for themselves.

But the difference was MJ scored a higher proportion of his team's points, including literally 48-50% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4) of his team's 4th quarter points in playoffs and Finals while he was on the floor (compared to only 42-44% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4) for Lebron)... And he played great defense - he didn't let Byron Russell get FMVP or even have a good series (or Stockton, who he also guarded (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0)).





You can downplay his finals all you want


Btw, many guys have matched or exceeded Lebron's 2015 Finals - in the 2001 Finals, the Sixers showed the same margin of defeat vs. the Lakers - they lost by approximately 7 ppg with 7 less ORtg, just like the 2015 Cavs vs Warriors.

So Lebron's 35 ppg on 39% is akin to Iverson's 35 ppg on 40% in 2000 - Iverson ALSO found marginal success and it was against a more dominant team (Lakers were 11-0 in playoffs before Iverson beat them in Game 1).

So you're missing the obvious reality - there was plenty of room for improvement on Lebron's 2015 Finals:

The Cavs win easily if Lebron shot 50% AND played good defense, instead of missing literally 80% of his jumpers and letting a role player be > Curry.. And by Game 4, the Warriors had figured out basic Lebron-ball and won 3 straight - they would've won 10 straight at that point.
.

[sdot_thadon]

incoherent slurping
Why would you assume kyrie would be higher assisted when he's even more of an iso player than lebron. How many times have I told you to think things through before speaking bro. Anyone who's watched nba back since 2011 would understand that.....oh wait.

After 20,000 odd posts I shouldn't have to hold your hand through a debate bro. I'm still waiting for the series Mj put up without his 2nd and 3rd options and not some bullshit convoluted fairy tale you draw up.

[Elosha]

Without James on the floor, Cleveland’s field goal percentage dropped for 40% to 17%, and it’s offensive efficiency fell from 97.3 to 50.9.

As I said yesterday...

Lebron's play in the 2015 finals was fine and he certainly wasn't the main reason they lost, given the loss of their next two best players. But he should take some of the blame in shooting so poorly when he wasn't even doubled that much. And he probably did hold onto the ball too much. Overall a very good, maybe even great Finals performance, but on the lower end of greatness. Definitely not all time great.

For those who are talking about how much Lebron's teammates FG% fell when Lebron was not on the floor, you need to take that with a huge grain of salt. I just checked, and Lebron only sat for 18 minutes in the entire series. That's an average of only 3 minutes per game when he wasn't on the floor, and 7 out of the 18 minutes minutes came when he sat early in the fourth quarter of game 4, when the Cavs were blown out.

Now for those 3 minutes/game (an almost minuscule sampling size) the Cavs were playing without their 3 best players and were playing with unfamiliar line-ups, new players brand new to the team (Smith and Shump), and playing an entirely different style where they were asked to create shots for three minutes, whereas Lebron was dominating the game and taking a huge amount of shots/useage for the other 39 minutes. All of these factors in my mind are significantly more important that arguing that Lebron's somehow made them all that much better for the remaining time period. Moreover, I'll bet in a significant portion of the 18 minutes missed (particularly game 4 blowout GS win) the Cavs were playing their end of the bench/rarely used players, which probably further contributed to low field goal percentage.

In summary, 18 total minutes of non-Lebron playing time in 2015 Finals is hardly a fair way or an adequate sample to argue Lebron was making them much better shooters. Sure Lebron did get them better looks at times while he played but he also shot very poorly and dominated the ball, and his teammates had to live with/adjust to that. It's very hard to adjust to playing a completely different style for 3 minutes/game before Lebron comes back onto the court and re-imposes his style onto the game.

Again, Lebron played very well, overall. He did his best with what he had to work with. It wasn't enough, but no one can claim Lebron didn't play hard enough or that he quit. Golden State was simply able to expose enough of his offensive shortcomings and control his weakened supporting cast. After game three, GS figured out the Cavs and it became a relatively easy series for them.

[feyki]

Only great finals performances by Lebron . 2012 was solid , 2013 and 2014 was good but they weren't great . I have him above Erving and West with that finals .