MJ has a perfect playoff record

[3ball]

He never lost as the favorite, or even when it was 50/50 - he only lost as a heavy underdog.

Otoh, Lebron loses as the favorite all the time: 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, 2011 Finals... and also when it's 50/50: 2014 Finals.

Therefore, Lebron's 2/6 and his other failures are legit, while MJ has a perfect playoff record (never losing when it's 50/50 or greater)

[JonatanRey]

This is just the 234125 time I see this topic. Let see how many posts are necessary to bring the 1-9, 6-24, 81 and some other fantastic unbiased opinion to the thread.

[3ball]

This is just the 234125 time I see this topic. Let see how many posts are necessary to bring the 1-9, 6-24, 81 and some other fantastic unbiased opinion to the thread.
you've never seen this topic before stop lying.. this isn't about 1-9

it's about mj never losing as a favorite or when it was 50/50 - therefore he never really lost

while lebron, kobe and everyone else did lose when it was 50/50 or better - that makes them losers

[Sarcastic]

3ball is like a pitbull. Absolutely relentless in going after these Bran Stans. Never giving up.

[kamil]

In '98 the Bulls were considered underdogs against the Jazz.

[Quickening]

Make a new gimmick account, you'll get more attention, this one is played out now.

[Andrei89]

He never lost as the favorite, or even when it was 50/50 - he only lost as a heavy underdog.

Otoh, Lebron loses as the favorite all the time: 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, 2011 Finals... and also when it's 50/50: 2014 Finals.

Therefore, Lebron's 2/6 and his other failures are legit, while MJ has a perfect playoff record (never losing when it's 50/50 or greater

Are you really that retarded? I cant think someone with be such an imbecile to contradict himself three sentences later.

Since Lebron was the heavy underdog in 2007 as well.

[3ball]

Are you really that retarded? I cant think someone with be such an imbecile to contradict himself three sentences later.

Since Lebron was the heavy underdog in 2007 as well.


Lebron loses as the favorite all the time: 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, 2011 Finals... and also when it's 50/50: 2014 Finals.

Therefore, Lebron's 2/6 and his other failures are legit, while MJ has a perfect playoff record (never losing when it's 50/50 or his team is favorite)

[3ball]

Make a new gimmick account, you'll get more attention, this one is played out now.
this is like, my 3rd last thread.. seriously

[plowking]

95 Magic.

[sportjames23]

3ball throwin them truth bombs. :rockon:

[ScalsFan21]

95 Magic.

While I have to say I feel like a lot of Jordan stans look to pretend that this series never happened and think that a quick "Jordan's rust" retort makes it moot, they were still taking on the number 1 seed in the East that year.

Where this gets interesting is when you realize that the Bulls were 17-4 with Jordan back in the lineup, so while Jordan was admittedly a slightly watered down version of himself, the team had shown no issues reintegrating him back into the fold and returning to their previous elite regular season form. The same regular season winning that leads LBJ detractors to get on him for losing in the playoffs with 60-win teams.

Jordan may not have lost as the "heavy favorite" in '95, but it was probably an example of a "50/50" deal.

[pauk]

Lebrons 8 series loss:
4 x finals loss
1 x ECF loss
3 x 2nd round loss


Jordans 7 series loss:
2 x ECF loss
2 x 2nd round loss
3 x 1st round loss (2 x swept 1st round)



One was coming up short very deep in the playoffs and one wasnt good enough for that and hence choked early....

Lebron > Jordan.

:cheers:

[tmacattack33]

He never lost as the favorite, or even when it was 50/50 - he only lost as a heavy underdog.

Otoh, Lebron loses as the favorite all the time: 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, 2011 Finals... and also when it's 50/50: 2014 Finals.

Therefore, Lebron's 2/6 and his other failures are legit, while MJ has a perfect playoff record (never losing when it's 50/50 or greater)

Okay...so all that means he wasn't that good as an underdog.

Frontrunner.

[livinglegend]

Okay...so all that means he wasn't that good as an underdog.

Frontrunner.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[livinglegend]

95 Magic.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[AirBonner]

He never lost as the favorite, or even when it was 50/50 - he only lost as a heavy underdog.

Otoh, Lebron loses as the favorite all the time: 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, 2011 Finals... and also when it's 50/50: 2014 Finals.

Therefore, Lebron's 2/6 and his other failures are legit, while MJ has a perfect playoff record (never losing when it's 50/50 or greater)
What was his record without pippen?

[Lebron23]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0625/pg2_g_oneal_hardaway_412.jpg

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/51583848.jpg

[dhsilv]

3ball is like a pitbull. Absolutely relentless in going after these Bran Stans. Never giving up.

He really is good at turning MJ fans into MJ haters.

[catch24]

I don't buy for one second Chicago-Orlando in 95 wasn't at least considered 50/50. Sounds like another made up factoid by 3ball just to fellate his guy.

Whats interesting though is Jordan never losing as the overwhelming favorite. Like, he was never completely upset by an underdog a la Kobe to Detroit and LeBron to Dallas. One can definitely argue MJ won when he was supposed to.

[Smoke117]

1-9

[Trollsmasher]

Okay...so all that means he wasn't that good as an underdog.

Frontrunner.
this

MJ was good at winning with teams that would have won without him and incapable of making a team better than what it would have been without him

Zero impact player (ZIP)

[ClipperRevival]

MJ actually won 7 series in which his teams didn't have HCA. And as we all know, he never lost when he had HCA.

And even in 2 of his 6 finals, his opponents had HCA (1993 Suns and 1998 Jazz). Actually, in 1993, his teams didn't have HCA for both the ECF (Knicks) and Finals (aforementioned Suns).

[AirBonner]

this

MJ was good at winning with teams that would have won without him and incapable of making a team better than what it would have been without him

Zero impact player (ZIP)
This. Bulls won 55 games without MJ. This is why he is overhyped. MJ is simply the result of perfect circumstances (goat coach, goat teammates ect.)

[TomBrady]

The 2014 finals weren't 50/50. San Antonio was favored.

Most of the heat LeBron gets should be from the 2011 finals. Inexcusable.

[Sambacher]

The 2014 finals weren't 50/50. San Antonio was favored.

Most of the heat LeBron gets should be from the 2011 finals. Inexcusable.
If talking about playoffs in general I would say 2010 was pretty inexcusable as well. I'm a Celtics fan but I did not expect us to go through the Cavs as easily as we did. After the series LeBron fans are super quick to say "well look at his team! he had no one!" but going into the series the vast majority were picking the Cavs to win. LeBron looked like he gave up. Give the Celtics credit though because they played great, Rondo was out of his mind that series. When it comes down to it though LeBron was unable to step up as the favorite in the series.

[TomBrady]

I think that 2011 trumps because of where his collapse happened. Directly cost his team a championship.

[Sambacher]

I think that 2011 trumps because of where his collapse happened. Directly cost his team a championship.
Agreed 100%. 2011 is by far Bron's biggest shortcoming and probably most embarrassing year as a player... I was just stating that he has had other times of falling short as a heavy favorite.

[Nash]

How about finals 2012 when Miami had Bosh injured and Wade on one bum knee?

[Sambacher]

How about finals 2012 when Miami had Bosh injured and Wade on one bum knee?
Mf that doesn't change that he has had major shortcomings... No one said he hasn't had great performances as well. Argument invalid.

[Sambacher]

How about finals 2012 when Miami had Bosh injured and Wade on one bum knee?
Not to mention if Harden would have played at even 60% of his capabilities that year in the finals the outcome could have been vastly different... As big as LeBron play in that series was a factor, Harden and Westbrooks lack of play was a huge factor as well.

[Lebron23]

My You Rest In Piss 3ball. You never play, or even touch basketball in your entire life. You are a F*cking Bum, and an imbecile.

[sd3035]

My You Rest In Piss 3ball. You never play, or even touch basketball in your entire life. You are a F*cking Bum, and an imbecile.

https://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y445/pkloa/7a7e605b082669cf0a03712ca8bd1a25_zpspdpa1j51.jpg

[nba_55]

My You Rest In Piss 3ball. You never play, or even touch basketball in your entire life. You are a F*cking Bum, and an imbecile.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

.
In their respective primes, MJ averaged more assists in playoffs than Lebron, despite scoring 6.5 more ppg (on equal or better efficiency):


6-Year Prime - Per Game Playoffs:

JORDAN 1988-1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game): 34.6 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 5.1 dreb.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
LEBRON 2009-2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game): 28.1 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.1 dreb.. 6.1 apg.. 1.8 stl.. 0.9 bpg.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg



6-Year Prime - Per 100 Possessions Playoffs:

JORDAN 1988-1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 44.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 6.6 dreb.. 8.5 ast.. 3.0 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
LEBRON 2009-2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 37.1 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.1 ast.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg
.
.

[3ball]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0625/pg2_g_oneal_hardaway_412.jpg


We're only considering seasons where MJ was with the team for a full season - seasons where he was playing another sport altogether for most of the year don't count.

And the only reason the Magic won was due to Jordan's rust, as evidenced by his ridiculously low PER of 22.1 (same as his Wizard days), 109 ORtg (11 points less than his career average), and 0.167 ws/48 (barely half his career average of 0.274).

However, the most obvious evidence of Jordan's rust was his uncharacteristic TO's in the clutch.. MJ turned the ball over twice on final possessions in the Orlando series - he's only done that 1 other time in his entire career!!!.. Anyone who watched him in the clutch vs. Orlando realized he wasn't the same player.. Even his normal confident swagger was missing.. You were kind of scratching your head like, "is that the same guy?"

[sdot_thadon]

We're only considering seasons where MJ was with the team for a full season - seasons where he was playing another sport altogether for most of the year don't count.

And the only reason the Magic won was due to Jordan's rust, as evidenced by his ridiculously low PER of 22.1 (same as his Wizard days), 109 ORtg (11 points less than his career average), and 0.167 ws/48 (barely half his career average of 0.274).

However, the most obvious evidence of Jordan's rust was his uncharacteristic TO's in the clutch.. MJ turned the ball over twice on final possessions in the Orlando series - he's only done that 1 other time in his entire career!!!.. Anyone who watched him in the clutch vs. Orlando realized he wasn't the same player.. Even his normal confident swagger was missing.. You were kind of scratching your head like, "is that the same guy?"
Sounds like a monster excuse. Doesn't count....:facepalm this guy.

[diamenz]

He really is good at turning MJ fans into MJ haters.

for real. i'm losing more and more love for mj with every insecure post this **** makes.


This. Bulls won 55 games without MJ. This is why he is overhyped. MJ is simply the result of perfect circumstances (goat coach, goat teammates ect.)

yet young bucks like these seem to put me back on an even keel.

[sd3035]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/puppets-on-strings.jpg

[3ball]

Okay...so all that means he wasn't that good as an underdog.


Bigger Overachievement: Jordan's 1989 Playoff Run vs. Lebron's 2007


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)


NO COMPARISON


https://media.giphy.com/media/YbKRJE9FoVLe8/giphy.gif

[3ball]

Okay...so all that means he wasn't that good as an underdog.

Frontrunner.


Posts like this show you're completely clueless about Jordan's career - and you guys wonder why I post about Jordan.. I have to inform you of the facts.

Jordan's entire 1989 playoff run was achieved as severe underdogs - they were a 47-win, 6-seed, that defeated the heavily-favored 57-win, 3-all-star Cavs (plus 20 ppg, athletic Ron Harper) and their 2nd-ranked defense - remember "the shot"?... That was MJ being the GOAT underdog.

All three media members travelling with the team predicted the Bulls would lose to the Cavs - here was Jordan's response to that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=17m37s


That's GOAT - show me where your sorry hero Lebeta does anything like that, and then backs it up with "the shot", shown above.
.

[3ball]

.
Playoffs Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 34.7 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 5.1 dreb.. 6.6 apg.. 3.3 tov.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ORtg
Lebron: 28.2 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.7 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 1.7 spg.. 0.9 blk.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg..


Finals Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 3.4 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.76 bpg.. 52.6 fg
Lebron: 26.4 ppg.. 9.6 rpg.. 6.9 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.54 bpg.. 44.6 fg
.

[Sportal]

Bigger Overachievement: Jordan's 1989 Playoff Run vs. Lebron's 2007


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)


NO COMPARISON


https://media.giphy.com/media/YbKRJE9FoVLe8/giphy.gif

Can you also list the other options for the teams? 2nd/3rd/4th options. Thanks.

[SouBeachTalents]

Can you also list the other options for the teams? 2nd/3rd/4th options. Thanks.

In the playoffs

'89 Bulls
Pippen: 13/8/4 on 46%
Grant: 11/10/2 on 52%
Cartwright: 12/7/1 on 49%

'07 Cavs
Hughes: 11/4/2 on 35%
Big Z: 13/10/1 on 49%
Gooden: 11/8/1 on 49%

[Sigmund Freud]

Fascinating thread, as usual, it has given me more information to make my diagnosis. My research on 3ball has led me to believe he suffers from autism. Not to worry, mein knabbe, we can work on ways to get at the root of your problem. I sense a lack of a strong father figure, hence the need to latch onto this mythical "MJ".

[3ball]

Can you also list the other options for the teams? 2nd/3rd/4th options for 1989 vs 2007. Thanks.


2nd Option

Pippen was 2nd-year player with 14/6/4 averages.

Larry Hughes was 9-year veteran with 1st team all-defense in 2005 - 15/4/4 averages



3rd Option

31-year old Cartwright was 12/7 with 0.5 blocks...

31-year old Zydrunas was 12/8 with 1.3 blocks.. He was 2-time all-star in 2003 and 2005.



4th Option

2nd-year Horace Grant 12/9

5-year veteran Drew Gooden 11/9

[Sigmund Freud]

2nd Option

Pippen was 2nd-year player with 14/6/4 averages.

Larry Hughes was 9-year veteran with 1st team all-defense in 2005 - 15/4/4 averages



3rd Option

31-year old Cartwright was 12/7 with 0.5 blocks...

31-year old Zydrunas was 12/8 with 1.3 blocks.. He was 2-time all-star in 2003 and 2005.



4th Option

2nd-year Horace Grant 12/9

5-year veteran Drew Gooden 11/9
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/c8/c8e027e8e7ecda8f92710b2a6f7444a19efbf9beec7d02cd5a 253124a6d6daa0.jpg

[3ball]

.
..........Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


..........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997.... 36.0..... 40.1..... 37.7..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <---- these are links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998.... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)



LEBRON 2009.... 35.0..... 39.3..... 41.5..... 42.4
LEBRON 2010.... 34.6..... 44.4..... 32.6..... 40.3
LEBRON 2011.... 32.0..... 32.8..... 28.1..... 30.7...... 21.4...... 14.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
LEBRON 2012.... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
LEBRON 2013.... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
LEBRON 2014.... 33.1..... 38.2..... 35.3..... 32.1...... 39.6...... 29.5
LEBRON 2015.... 30.1..... 38.9..... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 42.4...... 40.0...... 44.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
.

[LAZERUSS]

The difference between the '86-87 Bulls, with MJ having his greatest scoring season...albeit, on a losing team, and the 50-32 '87-88 Bulls? PIPPEN and GRANT, BOTH of whom IMMEDIATELY made the Bulls into a winning team.

The '87 Bulls were routed by a crumbling Celtic team in the first round of the playoffs, in a series in which Jordan would score 35 ppg, BUT, on a HORRIFIC .417 FG%.

The '88 Bulls good enough to go 50-32. Why? Because of part-timers PIPPEN and GRANT, who contributed efficiently in their first round series win over the under-dog Cavs. However, in the ECSF's, the Bulls were crushed by the Bad Boys. Why? Because JORDAN's numbers fell off the CLIFF from his regular season stats. During the regular season, MJ had averaged 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%. Against the powerful Pistons... 27.4 ppg on a .491 FG%. A HUGE drop-off. BTW, Grant had his first of many highly efficient post-season series...hanging an 11-6 .600 series on the Bad Boys.


Ok, what was the difference between the '88 Bulls, who went 50-32, and the '89 Bulls, who dropped slightly to 47-35? They lost Charles Oakley, who had been super in their '87 series against the crumbling Celtics...putting up a 20-15 series, albeit, with Jordan gagging in that series (and shooting an unheard of 9-35 in the clinching loss.)

Granted...Horace GRANT now stepped up, but he was still not the Grant that would terrorize front-courts in the 90's. He had an admiral 12-9 .519 season, but he couldn't completely replace a full-time Oakley, and part-time Grant from the year before. Still with Grant, Pippen, and even Cartwright playing well, the Bulls made it to the ECF's, where, MJ ONCE AGAIN, and he ALWAYS would...DECLINE against the Bad Boys in the post-season. In fact, he QUIT on his team in a pivotal game five (the series was tied 2-2), and because of JORDAN, the Bulls lost that series, 4-2.

The difference between the '89 Bulls, who had gone 47-35, and the '90 Bulls, who would go 55-27? Certainly not Jordan. In '89 he had averaged 32.5 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 8.0 apg, and on a .538 FG%. In the '89 series against the Pistons...29.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 6.5 apg, and on a .460 FG%.

In the '90 regular season, MJ averaged 33.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 6.3 apg, and on a .526 FG%...all DOWN from his '89 season. So, what happened in '90? PIPPEN, GRANT, CARTWRIGHT, and PAXSON all ELEVATED their games.

Then, in the post-season, Pippen became a star. 3Ball will blame PIPPEN and GRANT for a game seven blowout loss against the Bad Boys in the '90 ECF's...but even if they had shot .500, they would still have lost. However, had JORDAN not played like shit in game two (and awful 5-16 from the field...in a nine point loss, and in a game in which Grant and Pippen combined for 34 points on a combined .542 FG%...well, that series may not have come down to a game seven. And before that game seven blowout loss, Pippen had averaged 19 ppg, 7.0 rpg, and on a .464 FG%. So, he was certainly playing well enough...especially considering that Jordan was taking a huge volume of shots (which 3ball never addresses either.)


Now, what was the difference in the Bulls '91 season and their '90 season. PIPPEN and GRANT were now dominant players. The Bulls improved from 55-27 to 61-21 because of PIPPEN and GRANT. Pippen was now an 18-5-7 .520 stud defender, while Grant was punishing opposing front lines with a 13-8 .547 stat-line.

Oh, and the Bad Boys? They were now an injury-riddled shell of their '89 and '90 champions. Isiah Thomas missed a ton of games, and was never the same player again. Detroit fell from a 59-23 dominating team, to a 50-32 team that struggled to get past the 43-39 Hawks in the first round (the series went the limit.) Then they struggled against basically the Bird-less Celtics in the ECSF's (Bird only played part-time, and even missed a game.) How bad was it for the Bad Boys mini-dynasty? They would plunge to a 48-34 record the very next season, and lose in the first round against the Knicks, in a series in which Thomas would average 14 ppg on...,get this... a .338 FG%. He was DONE...as were the Pistons, who would have a losing record the next year.

Furthermore, while Jordan FINALLY elevated his FG% against the Pistons,,,his scoring, as always, declined. So how did the Bulls sweep the crumbling Pistons? PIPPEN hung a 22-8-5-3 .475 series, and Grant SLAUGHTERED Rodman. He averaged a 14-8 (outrebounding RODMAN) on...get this... a staggering .690 FG%...against the BAD BOYS! He was now an ELITE PF, and would be a force into the mid-90's and beyond.

Jordan was brilliant in the '91 Finals. But let's get real here. "Showtime" was just a shell. Magic, while still brilliant, was heavier and slower. Worthy? just a SHELL. He would average 21.4 ppg, but on a huge drop in FG% (down to a.492...from a player who had shot .550 in his career to that point. And in the Finals, he was injury-plagued, and missed the last game. He was just a complete SHELL... and would basically be done after the Finals. In his next three injury-riddled seasons (and post-Magic) he would shoot .447, .447, and .406.

How about Magic? Again, this was NOT a PEAK Magic. That Magic played in the mid-80's. How about Magic against the '87 Celtics (you remember, the same team that held MJ to 35 ppg on a .417 FG in the first round of the playoffs?) In two regular season H2H's against the '87 Celtics, Magic averaged...get this...35.0 ppg, on a .556 FG% (and a .617 TS%), and 9.0 apg. Then, Magic had a Finals for the ages. He averaged 26 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, and on a .541 FG%, and a .960 FTS. CLEARLY, and '87 Magic was a FAR greater player than the '91 Magic.

As it was, Magic had ZERO help in the '91 Finals. Worthy was a useless shell. And Grant just castrated Perkins. 3ball will tell you Perkins averaged 16.6 ppg and 7.6 rpg, to Grant's 14.6 ppg and 7.8 rpg...but he won't dare mention that Grant outshot a useless Perkins from the floor by a staggering .627 to .406 margin. GRANT just PUMMELED the Laker front court. Byron Scott never recovered from his injury in the '89 WCF's, and was 4.5 ppg scorer in the Finals. And then there was PIPPEN, who was asked to stop Magic when MJ couldn't. All PIPPEN did in the '91 Finals was hang a 21-9-7 series...and the Lakers had NO answer for him. Again...it was a MIRACLE that Magic could take this crappy roster to a 58-24 record, and then a stunning 4-2 series win over a 63-19 Blazer team that would give the '92 Bulls the same amount of trouble.


How good were Jordan's teammates from '91 on? They clearly outclassed the rest of the league. When Jordan "retired" the Bulls hardly missed a beat. They fell from a 57-25 record, to a 55-27 record. Furthermore, that 55-27 record was achieved with Pippen and Grant missing a combined 22 games. The '94 Bulls, without Jordan, were easily a 60 win team.

And, had the '94 Bulls been healthy, and won 60+ games...they would have had HCA throughout the playoffs. Which, would have been HUGE. Why? Because they would go 3-0 on their home court against the 56-26 Knicks in the ECSF's. And, they would outscore them in that series. In fact, they were ONE PLAY away from beating NY withOUT HCA. And keep in mind that the Knicks would go on to lose a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals. CLEARLY, the '94 Bulls were a title contender withOUT MJ. In fact, Pete Myers basically replaced Jordan.


But, it gets even worse for the Jordanites. Horace Grant jumped ship following the '94 season...leaving PIPPEN to carry a team of quality ROLE players. And carry them he did. He led them to an amazing 34-31 record. And that was deceptive. They were starting to roll...going 8-2 when...JORDAN decided he could steal yet another ring. Oh, and BTW, Pippen single-handedly carried that team to a winning record...something that MJ never could without PIPPEN.

Jordan came back, fully rested and completely healthy. In fact, in only his 5th game back, he put up a 55 point game. The Bulls would go 13-4 with MJ, but don't be too impressed. Grant's record of 48-22 in '94 would have equated to a 12-5 record in '95 in those same 17 games.

In any case, a fully healthy Jordan, playing at the same level he had in his '93 playoff run...and on a team that had gone 55-27 just the year before...BUT, withOUT GRANT...were dumped in the ECSF's, 4-2, by a team that would get swept in the Finals by a 47-35 Rockets team. The '95 Bulls with Jordan, and without GRANT, were nowhere near as competitive as the Grant team of '94. Oh, and in that ECSF series,...all GRANT did was plaster the Bulls front-line with a massive 18-11 .647 series. The Bulls had no answer for him.

The Bulls front office took one look at the '95 Bulls, and realized...hey, we have ZERO chance of ever winning a ring again...without an OUTSTANDING PF (as Grant had been.) So, they ADDED HOFer Dennis Rodman to a team that had gone 55-27 without Jordan...but now had BOTH Jordan and Rodman (and of course, a Top-5 player in Scottie Pippen.) And the rest was history.

So next time some idiot claims that Jordan didn't have a TON of help. Just have them read the above. His supporting casts were easily capable of winning 55+ games, and even challenging for a title...withOUT him.

[AirBonner]

The difference between the '86-87 Bulls, with MJ having his greatest scoring season...albeit, on a losing team, and the 50-32 '87-88 Bulls? PIPPEN and GRANT, BOTH of whom IMMEDIATELY made the Bulls into a winning team.

The '87 Bulls were routed by a crumbling Celtic team in the first round of the playoffs, in a series in which Jordan would score 35 ppg, BUT, on a HORRIFIC .417 FG%.

The '88 Bulls good enough to go 50-32. Why? Because of part-timers PIPPEN and GRANT, who contributed efficiently in their first round series win over the under-dog Cavs. However, in the ECSF's, the Bulls were crushed by the Bad Boys. Why? Because JORDAN's numbers fell off the CLIFF from his regular season stats. During the regular season, MJ had averaged 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%. Against the powerful Pistons... 27.4 ppg on a .491 FG%. A HUGE drop-off. BTW, Grant had his first of many highly efficient post-season series...hanging an 11-6 .600 series on the Bad Boys.


Ok, what was the difference between the '88 Bulls, who went 50-32, and the '89 Bulls, who dropped slightly to 47-35? They lost Charles Oakley, who had been super in their '87 series against the crumbling Celtics...putting up a 20-15 series, albeit, with Jordan gagging in that series (and shooting an unheard of 9-35 in the clinching loss.)

Granted...Horace GRANT now stepped up, but he was still not the Grant that would terrorize front-courts in the 90's. He had an admiral 12-9 .519 season, but he couldn't completely replace a full-time Oakley, and part-time Grant from the year before. Still with Grant, Pippen, and even Cartwright playing well, the Bulls made it to the ECF's, where, MJ ONCE AGAIN, and he ALWAYS would...DECLINE against the Bad Boys in the post-season. In fact, he QUIT on his team in a pivotal game five (the series was tied 2-2), and because of JORDAN, the Bulls lost that series, 4-2.

The difference between the '89 Bulls, who had gone 47-35, and the '90 Bulls, who would go 55-27? Certainly not Jordan. In '89 he had averaged 32.5 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 8.0 apg, and on a .538 FG%. In the '89 series against the Pistons...29.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 6.5 apg, and on a .460 FG%.

In the '90 regular season, MJ averaged 33.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 6.3 apg, and on a .526 FG%...all DOWN from his '89 season. So, what happened in '90? PIPPEN, GRANT, CARTWRIGHT, and PAXSON all ELEVATED their games.

Then, in the post-season, Pippen became a star. 3Ball will blame PIPPEN and GRANT for a game seven blowout loss against the Bad Boys in the '90 ECF's...but even if they had shot .500, they would still have lost. However, had JORDAN not played like shit in game two (and awful 5-16 from the field...in a nine point loss, and in a game in which Grant and Pippen combined for 34 points on a combined .542 FG%...well, that series may not have come down to a game seven.


Now, what was the difference in the Bulls '91 season and their '90 season. PIPPEN and GRANT were now dominant players. The Bulls improved from 55-27 to 61-21 because of PIPPEN and GRANT. Pippen was now an 18-5-7 .520 stud defender, while Grant was punishing opposing front lines with a 13-8 .547 stat-line.

Oh, and the Bad Boys? They were now an injury-riddled shell of their '89 and '90 champions. Isiah Thomas missed a ton of games, and was never the same player again. Detroit fell from a 59-23 dominating team, to a 50-32 team that struggled to get past the 43-39 Hawks in the first round (the series went the limit.) Then they struggled against basically the Bird-less Celtics in the ECSF's (Bird only played part-time, and even missed a game.) How bad was it for the Bad Boys mini-dynasty? They would plunge to a 48-34 record the very next season, and lose in the first round against the Knicks, in a series in which Thomas would average 14 ppg on...,get this... a .338 FG%. He was DONE...as were the Pistons, who would have a losing record the next year.

Furthermore, while Jordan FINALLY elevated his FG% against the Pistons,,,his scoring, as always, declined. So how did the Bulls sweep the crumbling Pistons? PIPPEN hung a 22-8-5-3 .475 series, and Grant SLAUGHTERED Rodman. He averaged a 14-8 (outrebounding RODMAN) on...get this... a staggering .690 FG%...against the BAD BOYS! He was now an ELITE PF, and would be a force into the mid-90's and beyond.

Jordan was brilliant in the '91 Finals. But let's get real here. "Showtime" was just a shell. Magic, while still brilliant, was heavier and slower. Worthy? just a SHELL. He would average 21.4 ppg, but on a huge drop in FG% (down to a.492...from a player who had shot .550 in his career to that point. And in the Finals, he was injury-plagued, and missed the last game. He was just a complete SHELL< and would basically be done after the Finals. In his next three injury-riddled seasons (and post-Magic) he would shoot .447, .447, and .406.

How about Magic? Again, this was NOT a PEAK Magic. That Magic played in the mid-80's. How about Magic against the '87 Celtics (you remember, the same team that held MJ to 35 ppg on a .417 FG in the first round of the playoffs?) In two regular season H2H's against the '87 Celtics, Magic averaged...get this...35.0 ppg, on a .556 FG% (and a .617 TS%), and 9.0 apg. Then, Magic had a Finals for the ages. He averaged 26 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, and on a .541 FG%, and a .960 FTS. CLEARLY, and '87 Magic was a FAR greater player than the '91 Magic.

As it was, Magic had ZERO help in the '91 Finals. Worthy was a useless shell. And Grant just castrated Perkins. 3ball will tell you Perkins averaged 16.6 ppg and 7.6 rpg, to Grant's 14.6 ppg and 7.8 rpg...but he won't dare mention that Grant outshot a useless Perkins from the floor by a staggering .627 to .406 margin. GRANT just PUMMELED the Laker front court. And then there was PIPPEN, who was asked to stop Magic when MJ couldn't. All PIPPEN did in the '91 Finals was hang a 21-9-7 series...and the Lakers had NO answer for him.


How good were Jordan's teammates from '91 on? They clearly outclassed the rest of the league. When Jordan "retired" the Bulls hardly missed a beat. They fell from a 57-25 record, to a 55-27 record. Furthermore, that 55-27 record was achieved with Pippen and Grant missing a combined 22 games. The '94 Bulls, without Jordan, were easily a 60 win team.

And, had the '94 Bulls been healthy, and won 60+ games...they would have had HCA throughout the playoffs. Which, would have been HUGE. Why? Because they would go 3-0 on their home court against the 56-26 Knicks in the ECSF's. And, they would outscore them in that series. In fact, they were ONE PLAY away from beating NY withOUT HCA. And keep in mind that the Knicks would go on to lose a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals. CLEARLY, the '94 Bulls were a title contender withOUT MJ. In fact, Pete Myers basically replaced Jordan.


But, it gets even worse for the Jordanites. Horace Grant jumped ship following the '94 season...leaving PIPPEN to carry a team of quality ROLE players. And carry them he did. He led them to an amazing 34-31 record. And that was deceptive. They were starting to roll...going 8-2 when...JORDAN decided he could steal yet another ring. Oh, and BTW, Pippen single-handedly carried that team to a winning record...something that MJ never could without PIPPEN.

Jordan came back, fully rested and completely healthy. In fact, in only his 5th game back, he put up a 55 point game. The Bulls would go 13-4 with MJ, but don't be too impressed. Grant's record of 48-22 in '94 would have equated to a 12-5 record in '95 in those same 17 games.

In any case, a fully healthy Jordan, playing at the same level he had in his '93 playoff run...and on a team that had gone 55-27 just the year before...BUT, withOUT GRANT...were dumped in the ECSF's, 4-2, by a team that would get swept in the Finals by a 47-35 Rockets team. The '95 Bulls with Jordan, and without GRANT, were nowhere near as competitive as the Grant team of '94. Oh, and in that ECSF series,...all GRANT did was plaster the Bulls front-line with a massive 18-11 .647 series. The Bulls had no answer for him.

The Bulls front office took one look at the '95 Bulls, and realized...hey, we have ZERO chance of ever winning a ring again...without an OUTSTANDING PF (as Grant had been.) So, they ADDED HOFer Dennis Rodman to a team that had gone 55-27 without Jordan...but now had BOTH Jordan and Rodman (and of course, a Top-5 player in Scottie Pippen.) And the rest was history.

So next time some idiot claims that Jordan didn't have a TON of help. Just have them read the above. His supporting casts were easily capable of winning 55+ games, and even challenging for a title...withOUT him.
/ thread :applause:

[3ball]

The difference between the '86-87 Bulls, and the 50-32 '87-88 Bulls?

PIPPEN and GRANT IMMEDIATELY made the Bulls into a winning team in 1988 - THEY SHOWED MJ HOW TO WIN.


This post alone ruins your credibility - there isn't a single person that think Pippen and Grant SHOWED MJ how to win.

Regarding the Bulls' improvement in 1988 - Rookie Pippen averaged 7.9 ppg in 20 minutes, while Grant averaged 8/6 in 22 minutes.. They had little to do with the Bulls' improvement.

The real improvement was Jordan - he added GOAT defense to his league-leading scoring by garnering DPOY, and also league MVP.

Obviously, it was Jordan's growth into the GOAT two-way wing player that made the Bulls better.





However, in the 1988 ECSF's, the Bulls were crushed by the Bad Boys. Why? Because JORDAN's numbers fell off the CLIFF from his regular season stats. During the regular season, MJ had averaged 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%. Against the powerful Pistons... 27.4 ppg on a .491 FG%. A HUGE drop-off. BTW, Grant had his first of many highly efficient post-season series...hanging an 11-6 .600 series on the Bad Boys.


Those are great stats, especially for Jordan's 4th worst playoff series ever and facing the jordan Rules for the first time.

The reason the Bulls lost to the Bad Boys was because Jordan had no help - rookie Pippen averaged 10/5 for the series and rookie Grant only 11/6... That's garbage help.





Ok, what was the difference between the '88 Bulls, who went 50-32, and the '89 Bulls, who dropped slightly to 47-35? They lost Charles Oakley, who had been super in their '87 series against the crumbling Celtics...putting up a 20-15 series, albeit, with Jordan gagging in that series (and shooting an unheard of 9-35 in the clinching loss.)


In 1987, Oakley's stats increased from 14/13 in regular season, to 20/15 in 1st Round.

This proves how Jordan's style elevated teammates and allowed PF's to excel - you'd NEVER see Lebron elevate his PF like that - it's quite the opposite, as we all know.





With Grant and Pippen, playing well, the Bulls made it to the 1989 ECF's, where, MJ ONCE AGAIN, and he ALWAYS would...DECLINE against the Bad Boys in the post-season. In fact, he QUIT on his team in a pivotal game five (the series was tied 2-2), and because of JORDAN, the Bulls lost that series, 4-2.


More lies - Pippen was horrific in 1989 playoffs, especially the ECF - and that's why the Bulls lost.

He averaged 9/7 on 40% vs. Pistons, which was a massive decline from his 14/6 on 48% in RS.





The difference between the '89 Bulls, who had gone 47-35, and the '90 Bulls, who would go 55-27? Certainly not Jordan. In '89 regular season, he had averaged 32.5 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 8.0 apg, and on a .538 FG%. In the '89 series against the Pistons...29.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 6.5 apg, and on a .460 FG%.


Again, Pippen's horrific play was the reason for the Bulls losing in 1989 playoffs - he averaged 9/7 on 40% vs. Pistons... That was a big decline from 14/6/4 on 48% in RS.





Then, in the post-season, Pippen became a star. 3Ball will blame PIPPEN and GRANT for losing game seven blowout loss against the Bad Boys in the '90 ECF's... However, had JORDAN not played like shit in game two (and awful 5-16 from the field...in a nine point loss, and in a game in which Grant and Pippen combined for 34 points on a combined .542 FG%...well, that series may not have come down to a game seven.


I don't blame Pippen for his 2 points and 1-10 in Game 7 - PIPPEN HIMSELF DOES:


"It was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s


Pippen's epic choke cost the Bulls the 1990 championship - the Pistons only needed 6 easy games to beat Portland, but needed 7 tight games and the Pippen choke to beat Bulls.. The gap between Pistons/Blazers ORtg was much larger than the razor thin gap between Pistons/Bulls.



CONTINUED......

[3ball]

2. 1991 Bulls.

They swept the Pistons. How? The Pistons were crumbling


The Pistons weren't crumbling in 1991 - they still had a 104.6 DRtg, which was better than their DRtg in 1989 when they won the championship.. They also had 6 guys averaging over 11 ppg, compared to only 3 guys for the Bulls - the Pistons were still more talented and far deeper from top to bottom.

However, Isiah missed a lot of games in RS, so the Pistons only won 50 games - but he was healthy for the playoffs and the defense was the same as always - everyone was producing at the same levels as other seasons... But they simply weren't the better team in 1991... They weren't the better team in 1990 either, but Pippen's choke cost the Bulls in 1990.





And what was the OTHER reason the Bulls beat Pistons in 1991 ECF??.. PIPPEN and GRANT came up HUGE.

And how did MJ do?. As always his numbers declined...albeit his efficiency finally went up.


PIPPEN. 1990 ECF: 23/8/5 on 48%
JORDAN 1990 ECF: 30/5/7 on 54%


This was 1 of the 2 series in their playoff CAREERS where MJ didn't score at least 10 ppg more than Pippen.. He still averaged 7 ppg more, with more assists, and far better efficiency.

As for Horace Grant - Grant's performance in 1991 ECF was his typical pedestrian 12/8.. During his best years alongside Jordan (1991-1993), Grant averaged 13/9 in regular season and 11/8 in playoffs..

He was an ordinary, 11/8 play-finisher and a simple dunker.. He was never an all-star and only made one 2nd team all-defense while on the Bulls.. He never garnered an iota of defensive attention and no one thought for a nanosecond to let him create his own shot.. Half the league's 3rd options were better than him.





Pippen and Grant were also big in the 1991 Finals, and against a rapidly declining Showtime team that had no business even getting to the Finals.


The Lakers absolutely belonged in the Finals - they won 58 games in 1991 and were the 2-seed out West.. And Magic was runner-up for league MVP.. He averaged exactly 19/7/13 on 62% TS in both regular season and Finals.

Worthy was All-NBA in 1991 too - he was the Lakers' leading scorer in regular season (21 ppg on 49.2%) and Finals (19.3 ppg on 47%, while playing 41 MPG).

And the Lakers had far better personnel after Magic and Worthy:


.........................RS and Finals......................................RS and Finals

Sam Perkins........14/7 and 17/8 ...........Horace Grant.......13/8 and 15/8

Vlade Divac ........11/8 and 18/9............ John Paxson........ 9/2 and 13/2

AC Green............. 9/6 and 6/6.............. Cartwright.......... 9/5 and 9/6

Byron Scott......... 15/4 and 6/3............. Armstrong........... 9/3 and 2/1


Lakers had better talent, but when you have MJ dominating the Finals like no one else ever has, (the GOAT destroying Magic on biggest stage), you don't need nearly as much help..





3. 1993. Bulls go 57-25, and eke out a title


The list below shows every Bulls player that played more than 10 mpg in 1993 (excluding MJ):


.....................PPG.......MPG

Pippen............18.6...... 38.6
Grant.............13.2....... 35.6
Armstrong.......12.3.......30.4
Cartwright........5.6....... 19.9
S Williams........5.9........19.3
Paxson............ 4.2........17.5
R McCray......... 3.5........15.9
S King............. 5.4....... 13.9
W Perdue......... 4.7........13.9
T Tucker.......... 5.2........13.2
D Walker......... 2.6........13.1


The 1993 supporting cast only had 3 guys (Pippen/Grant/Armstrong) that played more than 20 mpg and averaged more than 6 ppg - the #4 thru #12 guys all played LESS than 20 mpg and averaged less than 6 ppg..

The Bulls relied on a mix of interchangeable stiffs who barely played and barely scored for the #4 thru #12 spots.. There isn't a single team in the league where the #4 thru #12 players are anywhere near this bad.





The '94 Bulls then went 55-27...which was deceptive. Why?

Because Pippen and Grant missed a combined 22 games. Had they played every game, they would have won 60+ games.


They don't win 60 if every other team in the league gets to be injury-free too - that levels the playing field.





Pippen was now considered a Top-FIVE player


Not based on stats or performance.. The only reason he was top 4 in MVP voting is because his value was boosted by having a weaker supporting cast.

But no one in their right mind would say Pippen could match 1994/prime David Robinson, Hakeem, Barkley or Malone... or Shaq (29/13/2.5 blk)... or Ewing (25/11/2.7).... or Alonzo (21/10/3.0).

All these guys would laugh you out of the room if you said Pippen was better, and their stats destroy Pippen's... Don't overrate 22 ppg on 49%.

The Bulls didn't win based on that kind of 1st option production.. Nor did they win based on Grant/Armstrong's very average production at the 2nd/3rd option spots, or their bevy of interchangeable stiffs at the #4 thru #12 spots - this means they won based on meticulous execution and superior chemistry, both acquired from 3-peating with MJ.





the 1994 Bulls contended for a championship without Jordan.


Bullshit - the 1994 Bulls would've gone down 0-3 to the Knicks and been swept if Kukoc doesn't hit the miracle walk-off in Game 3 to adrenalize the team with relief and a 2nd life.. Losing in the 2nd Round is nowhere near "contending for a championship".

And we all know that Pippen famously sat out the final play because Phil called the play for Kukoc..

Phil was just being smart, since Kukoc hit 3 game-winners (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=2m05s) in the RS, which is which is more than Pippen had in his entire career.. Ironically, given Pippen's horrible track record on GW's and clutch play, if Phil lets Pippen take the last shot, they almost certainly lose that game and go down 0-3.





Given their close series with the Knicks (who barely lost to the champion Rockets) the Bulls were NOT an "ordinary second round losing team." They were actually a CHAMPIONSHIP contending team.


The 1994 Bulls almost went down 0-3 in the 2nd Round and eventually lost because they had weak talent - their #1 option (Pippen) wasn't a top five 1st option (Shaq, Barkley, Malone, David Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Alonzo were all better, among others), while BJ Armstrong and Grant were inferior 2nd and 3rd options than half the league.

And of course, we know the rest of the team was marginal bench players that barely played or scored... Given this weak level of talent, it's clear the 1994 Bulls achieved based on the 3-peat chemistry accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.





1995. In addition to not having Jordan, this team no longer had the ELITE PF, Grant. Somehow, Pippen, a top 5 player in the league, WILLED this roster to a 34-31 record. Pippen could carry an MJ-less and Grant-less roster to a winning record, but Jordan never had a winning season without PIPPEN


You're bragging about a .500 record?... Many players worse than Pippen have led teams to .500 records, and they didn't have championship experience, teammates with championship experience, or good offensive and defensive strategy.

Also, the Bulls' 1995 roster improved in various ways - starting SG Ron Harper was brought on board, and Kukoc's 2nd year stats were 16 ppg on 51%, compared to 10 ppg on 43% in 1994.

And again, Pippen and his 21/8/5 was not a top 5 player in 1995.. All these guys were better:

Robinson (28/11/3.1 blk)
Shaquille (29/11/2.4)
Hakeem (28/11/3.4)
Ewing (24/11/2.0)
Alonzo (21/10/2.9)
Barkley (23/11/4 and 25.0 PER)
Malone (27/11/4 and 25.1 PER)
Stockton (15 ppg and 12 apg, 65% ts, 23.3 PER)
Penny, KJ, Payton, and others were also better.


CONTINUED....
.

[LAZERUSS]

:roll: :roll: :roll:


In 1987, Oakley's stats increased from 14/13 in regular season, to 20/15 in 1st Round.

This proves how Jordan's style elevated teammates and allowed PF's to excel - you'd NEVER see Lebron elevate his PF like that - it's quite the opposite, as we all know.



Next line...


More lies - Pippen was horrific in 1989 playoffs, especially the ECF - and that's why the Bulls lost.

He averaged 9/7 on 40% vs. Pistons, which was a massive decline from his 14/6 on 48% in RS.

Oh wait...EVIDENCE that indeed Jordan couldn't elevate his teammates. He gets the credit when they MASSIVELY outplayed their Piston counterparts in '91, and THEY get the blame for ONE poor game in the '90 ECF's. But, of course, no mention of Jordan's HORRFIC game two of that same series.

[LAZERUSS]

:roll: :roll: :roll:


You're bragging about a .500 record?... Many players worse than Pippen have led teams to .500 records, and they didn't have championship experience, teammates with championship experience, or good offensive and defensive strategy.

Pippen essentially carried a cast of ROLE players (again without his TWO best players from his '93 team, and his best player from his '94 team) to a 34-31 record...

and yet "many players worse than Pippen have led teams to .500 records." Sure, Wilt, Kareem, and a few others.

One who didn't though? JORDAN. Never could do it without BOTH Pippen and Grant, much less by himself (as Pippen had accomplished.) BTW, just before Jordan came roaring back from retirement, PIPPEN had led the Bulls to an 8-2 record. Clearly, he had the team on a roll.

[3ball]

Let's replace PETE MYERS, who wasn't even a Top-20 SG in '94, with even an average SG. Likely a title. But how about replacing him with Reggie Miller, or Joe Dumars, or Mitch Richmond. Does anyone here honestly believe that one of those guys would NOT have made a HUGE difference?


None of those guys would've allowed the Bulls to beat the Knicks, Pacers, and Rockets in 1994... None of those guys have the impact to improve a team by 3 series wins.

And even if you want to hypothesize about someone like Kobe replacing Jordan - it's a pointless exercise because Kobe couldn't achieve the stats MJ needed to 3-peat in the first place (35/7/7/50).. Kobe's 25/5/5/45 wouldn't cut it, so he wouldn't be in 4-peat position by 1994.

So it's pointless to imagine what other players would do with Jordan's already-made championship teams, since no one can achieve the stats MJ needed to win those championships in the first place.

Btw, if you think Dumars and 15-18 ppg would've won the championship for the Bulls in 1994, then Jordan would've won the 2007 Finals EASILY, since he would've averaged 30+ vs. Spurs.. See how biased you are??.. You're eager to use that logic to say the 94' Bulls could've won 3 additional series, but won't apply the same logic to say Jordan would've won 1 series.... (which btw, he would have (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11989539&postcount=140)).





6. 1996. Chicago management took one look at the disappointing '95 season and realized...hey, we can't win without an ELITE PF.


This is factually incorrect - if a power forward isn't an all-star OR all-defense, then they aren't elite.. MJ won all 6 rings without an all-star PF, and 4 of the 6 years he didn't have an all-defense PF.

Horace Grant was never an all-star alongside Jordan, nor was he all-defense, except 2nd team in 1993... So MJ's first 3-peat was won without an all-star or all-defense caliber PF..

In Grant's best years alongside MJ (1991-1993), he only averaged 13/9 in regular season and 11/8 in playoffs.. He was an ordinary, 11/8 play-finisher and simple dunker.. He never garnered an iota of defensive attention and no one thought for a nanosecond to let him create his own shot.. Literally half the league's 3rd options were better than him.. Compare him to fellow play-finisher and statistical peer, Tristan Thompson.





So, they went out and grabbed HOFer Dennis Rodman.


As for Rodman - during his time on the Bulls, he was 34-36 years old and he wasn't an all-star either (he hadn't made an all-star team since 1992) - nor did Rodman make the all-defense team in 1997 or 1998.. So similar to the first 3-peat, MJ won his second 3-peat without an all-star or all-defense caliber PF as well.

Rodman only averaged 4/8 in the 1997 playoffs and 1998 Finals.. He wasn't even a starter in the 1998 playoffs or Finals - Phil benched him for bad play... Rodman's last good year was 1996 - by 1997 and 1998, he was the same washed-up garbage he was for the 1999 Lakers, but no one noticed because the Bulls were 3-peating.





So next time some idiot claims that Jordan didn't have a TON of help. Just have them read the above. His supporting casts were easily capable of winning 55+ games, and even challenging for a title...withOUT him.


The Bulls lost in the 2nd Round in 1994, and were a Kukoc walk-off from being down 0-3... They were nowhere NEAR challenging for a championship..

Also, you aren't aware of how the Bulls team was constructed, and how little talent they had top to bottom.. It was very unique.

As shown previously, the 1993 supporting cast only had 3 guys (Pippen/Grant/Armstrong) that played more than 20 mpg and averaged more than 6 ppg - the #4 thru #12 guys all played LESS than 20 mpg and had less than 6 ppg.. There isn't a single team in the league where the #4 thru #12 players were anywhere near this bad.. The Bulls essentially relied on a mix of interchangeable stiffs who barely played and barely scored for the #4 thru #12 spots.

So don't overrate their talent - that isn't why they achieved the 2nd Round.. They made the 2nd Round because of the 3-peat caliber of chemistry and execution accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.. MJ had to lead them to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him.. Those are the facts.
.

[LAZERUSS]

:roll: :roll: :roll:


The 1994 Bulls almost went down 0-3 in the 2nd Round and eventually lost because they had weak talent - their #1 option (Pippen) wasn't a top five 1st option (Shaq, Barkley, Malone, David Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Alonzo were all better, among others), while BJ Armstrong and Grant were inferior 2nd and 3rd options than half the league.

More lies. The '94 Bulls were down 2-0, and then won two straight at home. They then lost game five, in NY, by one point! They won easily in game six, at home, and lost in game seven on the road.

Overall, they were ONE PLAY away from beating a Knick team in six games...the same NY team that would lose a game seven by four points to the Rockets in the Finals. Oh, and the Bulls outscored the Knicks in that series, and then the Knicks outscored the Rockets in the Finals. And had they had HCA, which they most certainly would have had Pippen and Grant not missed a combined 22 games...a series win over the Knicks. And given the fact that they had OWNED the Pacers in the regular season (going 4-1 against them), they likely would have mowed them down, and then faced the Rockets in the Finals.

CLEARLY, the '94 Bulls were a TITLE CONTENDING TEAM! ALL the EVIDENCE supports that view.

[3ball]

.
Career Playoffs:

Jordan: 33.4 ppg.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 apg.. 3.1 tov.. 2.1 spg.. 0.9 blk.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
Lebron: 28.2 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.7 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 1.7 spg.. 0.9 blk.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg..


Career Finals:

Jordan: 33.6 ppg.. 6.0 rpg.. 6.0 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.65 bpg.. 48.1 fg
Lebron: 26.4 ppg.. 9.6 rpg.. 6.9 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.54 bpg.. 44.6 fg


There's never been a #1 option in history that scored 5-8 more ppg on superior efficiency that wasn't considered the FAR better player.. MJ's efficiency is superior across the board (fg, ts, ORtg)
.

[LAZERUSS]

:roll: :roll: :roll:


None of those guys would've allowed the Bulls to beat the Knicks, Pacers, and Rockets in 1994... None of those guys have the impact to improve a team by 3 series wins.

So a Pete Myers could average 6.6 ppg in the a close seven game series against the Knicks...but guys like Richmond, Miller, and Dumars wouldn't have been enough to get them over the hump? You my friend, are full of shit. Had the '94 Bulls had just one of those guys, instead of a D-Leaguer like Myers, and they would have WALTZED to a title. Hell Dumars was a star SG against the Bulls in their four H2H's,...and beating MJ THREE times.

[LAZERUSS]

In 1994 ECSF, the Bulls would've gone down 0-3 to the Knicks if Kukoc doesn't hit the miracle walk-off in Game 3 to adrenalize the team with relief and a 2nd life.. Losing in the 2nd Round is nowhere near "contending for a championship".

And we all know that Pippen famously sat out the final play because Phil called the play for Kukoc..

Phil was just being smart, since Kukoc hit 3 game-winners (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=2m05s) in the RS, which is which is more than Pippen had in his entire career.. Ironically, given Pippen's horrible track record on GW's and clutch play, if Phil lets Pippen take the last shot, they almost certainly lose that game and go down 0-3.

And just as easily...ONE PLAY AWAY from beating the Knicks. My scenario is far more likely than your folly.

They outscored the Knicks in that series...hell, they OUTPLAYED the Knicks in that series...just as the Knicks would outscore and outplay the Rockets in the Finals.

Again...the '94 Bulls were a TITLE CONTENDING TEAM. Your nonsense does not change that FACT.

[3ball]

.
The reason Lebron lowers his teammates APG and increases their assisted rate (turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers):

First of all, Lebron and Harden are the only non-point guards in the top 50 for time of possession (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season).. His abnormally high time of possession from the forward position means that he adds a 2nd player with high time of possession to the court IN ADDITION TO THE EXISTING POINT GUARD.. This means his teammates have less time with the ball than other teams, whose forwards have a normal time of possession for forwards.

Along the same lines, starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.

Lebron's effect of turning teammates from playmakers to play-finishers prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all five guys SHARE the playmaking duties more equally.. But in Lebron's case, since his monopolization of the playmaking prevents the best brand of basketball, various equal or less-talented teams have pulled upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..
.

[LAZERUSS]

they lost in the 2nd round and were a play away from being down 0-3 before the once-in-a-lifetime shot.

those are the facts.

2nd round loser is nowhere near a title contending team and you know it - you're just a fool thinking you can convince anyone otherwise.

There is a HUGE difference in losing a game seven in the ECSF's, in series in which they outplayed the Knicks...and then that same NY team barely loses a game seven in the Finals to a 58-24 Rockets team...


than the '95 Bulls, with Jordan, who were beaten 4-2 in the ECSF's, by a team that would get SWEPT in the Finals by a 47-35 Rockets team...

THAT is FOR SURE.

The '94 Bulls were legitimate TITLE-CONTENDERS.

The '95 Bulls, with Jordan but without a DOMINATING PF...just an ordinary second round loser.

[ScalsFan21]

We're only considering seasons where MJ was with the team for a full season - seasons where he was playing another sport altogether for most of the year don't count.

And the only reason the Magic won was due to Jordan's rust, as evidenced by his ridiculously low PER of 22.1 (same as his Wizard days), 109 ORtg (11 points less than his career average), and 0.167 ws/48 (barely half his career average of 0.274).

However, the most obvious evidence of Jordan's rust was his uncharacteristic TO's in the clutch.. MJ turned the ball over twice on final possessions in the Orlando series - he's only done that 1 other time in his entire career!!!.. Anyone who watched him in the clutch vs. Orlando realized he wasn't the same player.. Even his normal confident swagger was missing.. You were kind of scratching your head like, "is that the same guy?"

I wasn't disputing any of this. I agree that clearly Jordan was not himself in that series, but I've seen plenty of revisionist history from MJ fans about how "once Jordan won, he never stopped winning" (outside of the Wiz years). Which isn't technically factual. And I get it, realistically when he had an all-time stacked supporting cast around him PLUS a full season of preparation, he did never lose. There is no 2004 Finals, no 2011 Finals on Michael's resume and there never will be. Can't argue with that.

As an MJ hater I'd agree that '95 was not Jordan at his best, but to claim him to have a "perfect playoff record" is arguably more biased than anything I've seen on this board.

[LAZERUSS]

REALITY...

without Pippen and Grant...the Bulls were a losing team that was first round cannon-fodder.

With part-timers Pippen and Grant...IMMEDIATELY a 50-32 team, and a second round team.

With a dominating Pippen and Grant...THREE-TIME champions.

Without Jordan...and now with just Pippen and Grant (and Pete Myers), a 55-27 team that would surely have won 60+ games had Pippen and Grant not missed a combined 22 games...and likely a champion with HCA.

With Jordan, and Pippen, BUT without a DOMINATING PF...an ordinary second round loser.

Give Jordan a 55 win roster, and add HOFer Rodman...and guess what...three straight more titles.

Now, you tell me just how good MJ's supporting casts were.

[dankok8]

The OP is infatuated with Jordan and LAZERUSS admittedly was harsh to MJ in his latest post but whoever tries to argue that Jordan didn't have a great supporting cast is kidding themselves.

Pippen was the best 2nd option for all of the Bulls titles. Guys like James Worthy, Cliff Robinson, KJ, Gary Payton, and John Stockton when they faced the Bulls in the Finals weren't as good as Pippen. In 1994 when MJ retired, Pippen was either the 6th of 7th best player in the league. I am taking Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Barkley, and Malone over Pippen. And probably Ewing too but that's debatable.

Everyone needs help to win titles, lots of help. Jordan included.

[LAZERUSS]

The OP is infatuated with Jordan and LAZERUSS admittedly was harsh to MJ in his latest post but whoever tries to argue that Jordan didn't have a great supporting cast is kidding themselves.

Pippen was the best 2nd option for all of the Bulls titles. Guys like James Worthy, Cliff Robinson, KJ, Gary Payton, and John Stockton when they faced the Bulls in the Finals weren't as good as Pippen. In 1994 when MJ retired, Pippen was either the 6th of 7th best player in the league. I am taking Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Barkley, and Malone over Pippen. And probably Ewing too but that's debatable.

Everyone needs help to win titles, lots of help. Jordan included.

Jordan was the KEY player in his six title runs. Only a complete idiot would claim otherwise. But, as you stated...he had a TON of help along the way.

A Jordan in his highest scoring season, was swept in the first round. An MJ with two relatively green, but very good players in Pippen and Grant...were blown out in the second round in a season in which MJ averaged 35 ppg on a .535 FG%. And with green starters, his Bulls were beaten 4-2 in the ECF's in a season in which he averaged 33-8-8 .538.

So, what happened in '90, when Pippen and Grant became stars? Then from '91 thru '93? Clearly, it was NOT Jordan ELEVATING his play. It was because his supporting casts were elevating THEIR's.

They were good enough to go 55-27 without him. No one in their right mind would claim that he didn't have a TON of help. If he didn't need a TON of help...what happened from '85 thru '87? And without his best players playing extremely well, what happened from '88 thru '90?

[sdot_thadon]

LAZERUSS by annihilation.
/thread

[3ball]

.
The list below shows every Bulls player that played more than 10 mpg in 1993:


.....................PPG.......MPG

Jordan............32.6...... 39.3
Pippen............18.6...... 38.6
Grant.............13.2....... 35.6
Armstrong.......12.3.......30.4
Cartwright........5.6....... 19.9
S Williams........5.9........19.3
Paxson............ 4.2........17.5
R McCray......... 3.5........15.9
S King............. 5.4....... 13.9
W Perdue......... 4.7........13.9
T Tucker.......... 5.2........13.2
D Walker......... 2.6........13.1


The 1993 team only had 4 guys (Jordan/Pippen/Grant/Armstrong) that played more than 20 mpg and averaged more than 6 ppg - the #4 thru #12 guys all played LESS than 20 mpg and averaged less than 6 ppg..

The Bulls relied on a mix of interchangeable stiffs who barely played and barely scored for the #4 thru #12 spots.. There isn't a single team in the league where the #4 thru #12 players are anywhere near this bad.
.

[sdot_thadon]

I
yeah you're a real credible source - you're one of the biggest 3ball haters on ISH
I don't hate you bro, I hate ****ing stupidity but if the shoes fits my man have at it.:oldlol:

***and make no mistake he murked your ass.

[LAZERUSS]

I get so sick-and-tired of these daily "anti-Lebron" topics.

Supposedly MJ would have carried the pathetic '07 Cavs to a title. Or the '09 Cavs, who quite frankly WAY over-achieved (and with Lebron hanging a 39-8-8 ECF's.) Or that MJ would have won in '15. Yeah, right. When Jordan had the same amount of help that Lebron had in the '15 Finals, in his '87 series against a 59-23 Celtic team that was in no way better than the '15 Warriors...his team was swept, and in a series in which he shot .417 from the field. I'm supposed to believe that Jordan, who couldn't get a win against a worse team, and with equal help, is going to better than Lebron getting two wins, and two close losses against a stacked Warrior team, and with JR Smith as his second best player?

A prime Jordan likely would have won in '11. He certainly couldn't have defended the entire Spurs team in '14 (the rest of the Heat were bystanders in that series), so no way he wins in '14 either.

MJ > Lebron. No question. But not NEARLY enough to take the '07 Cavs, or the '09 Cavs, or the '14 Heat, or the '15 Cavs to a title.

[LAZERUSS]

LAZERUSS by annihilation.
/thread

Oh, he'll be back with page-after-page of the same rehashed shit he has posted countless times, and which has been debunked by more than just myself here.

But, you can be sure it is coming...

[LAZERUSS]

Supposedly Pippen and Grant were easily replaceable, but no mention of Pete Myers replacing MJ and the Bulls still going 55-27.

[3ball]

Jordan was the KEY player in his six title runs. Only a complete idiot would claim otherwise. But, as you stated...he had a TON of help along the way.


There - you just said MJ's the goat - no one in history was the key player on that many title runs.

you're done.. take this L





A Jordan in his highest scoring season, was swept in the first round. An MJ with two relatively green, but very good players in Pippen and Grant...were blown out in the second round in a season in which MJ averaged 35 ppg on a .535 FG%. And with green starters, his Bulls were beaten 4-2 in the ECF's in a season in which he averaged 33-8-8 .538.


Pippen and Grant were not good players as rookies in 1988 - you're telling outright lies here, as usual.

Rookie Pippen averaged 7.9 ppg in 20 minutes, while Grant averaged 8/6 in 22 minutes.. Those numbers are easily replaceable - they had little to do with the Bulls win totals that year.

The real key in 1988 was JORDAN'S IMPROVEMENT - he added GOAT defense to his league-leading scoring by garnering DPOY, and also league MVP.

Obviously, it was Jordan's growth into the GOAT two-way player and league MVP that made the Bulls better.





So, what happened in '90, when Pippen and Grant became stars?


Grant was never a star - during his best years alongside Jordan (1991-1993), he averaged 13/9 in regular season and 11/8 in playoffs..

He was an ordinary, 11/8 play-finisher and a simple dunker.. He was never an all-star and only made ONE 2nd team all-defense while on the Bulls..

He never garnered an iota of defensive attention and no one thought for a nanosecond to let him create his own shot.. Half the league's 3rd options were better than him - we can go through and list them player for player and stat-for-stat - it's not even close - Grant was as ordinary as they come.





Jordan needed a dominating, elite PF to win


This is factually incorrect - if a power forward isn't an all-star OR all-defense, then they aren't elite.. MJ won all 6 rings without an all-star PF, and 4 of the 6 years he didn't have an all-defense PF.

Grant's ordinary play and stats were described above - compare him to fellow play-finisher and statistical peer, Tristan Thompson.

As for Rodman - during his time on the Bulls, he was 34-36 years old and he wasn't an all-star either (he hadn't made an all-star team since 1992) - nor did Rodman make the all-defense team in 1997 or 1998.. So similar to the first 3-peat, MJ won his second 3-peat without an all-star or all-defense caliber PF as well.

Rodman only averaged 4/8 in the 1997 playoffs and 1998 Finals.. He wasn't even a starter in the 1998 playoffs or Finals - Phil benched him for bad play... Rodman's last good year was 1996 - by 1997 and 1998, he was the same washed-up garbage he was for the 1999 Lakers, but no one noticed because the Bulls were 3-peating.





So, what happened in '90, when Pippen became a star? Then from '91 thru '93? Clearly, it was NOT Jordan ELEVATING his play. It was because his supporting casts were elevating THEIR's.


More lies - no player in history elevated his play more than Jordan did in 1991-1993 playoffs and Finals - the stats prove it:

Jordan averaged 34/6/7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game) during 1991-1993 playoffs, which was better than his RS averages of 31/6/6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game)...

In the Finals, he elevated his play even more - he averaged 36/7/8 in 1991-1993 Finals.. And we all remember his destruction of top 5 player Magic Johnson in 1991 Finals..... the famous shrug and record 6 threes in 1992 Finals.... and his record 41/9/6 on 51% in 1993 Finals.

No one in history ever played anywhere NEAR this well while winning championships.. So stfu with your blatant lies about MJ didn't elevate his game - you couldn't be more wrong.

Furthermore, Jordan also averaged at least 10 ppg more than Pippen in every playoff series of their careers (except two when MJ averaged 7 ppg and 5 ppg more) - no one in history did so much more than their 2nd option.





They were good enough to go 55-27 without him in regular season.


That's nothing - they were 3-peat champions with 3-peat strategy, know-how and execution on both sides of the ball.. Imagine if the Warriors win the ring the next two years, giving them a 3-peat - if Curry retires in 2018, the Warriors easily win 55.

But ultimately, the regular season is exhibition season compared to the playoffs - so the Warriors would still lose in the playoffs, probably the 2nd Round, just like the Bulls did.

The Bulls were an ordinary 2nd Round team without Jordan, and a 3-peat dynasty with him - those are the facts.. If we wanted to verify Jordan's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, we'd ask him to comeback and 3-peat again, while winning MVP's the whole way.... Done and Done.





he had a TON of help along the way.


The list below shows every Bulls player that played more than 10 mpg in 1993 (excluding MJ) - this was MJ's supporting cast in 1993:


.....................PPG.......MPG

Pippen............18.6...... 38.6
Grant.............13.2....... 35.6
Armstrong.......12.3.......30.4
Cartwright........5.6....... 19.9
S Williams........5.9........19.3
Paxson............ 4.2........17.5
R McCray......... 3.5........15.9
S King............. 5.4....... 13.9
W Perdue......... 4.7........13.9
T Tucker.......... 5.2........13.2
D Walker......... 2.6........13.1


The 1993 supporting cast only had 3 guys (Pippen/Grant/Armstrong) that played more than 20 mpg and averaged more than 6 ppg - the #4 thru #12 guys all played LESS than 20 mpg and averaged less than 6 ppg..

The Bulls relied on a mix of interchangeable stiffs who barely played and barely scored for the #4 thru #12 spots.. There isn't a single team in the league where the #4 thru #12 players are anywhere near this bad.





If he didn't need a TON of help...what happened from '85 thru '87? And without his best players playing extremely well, what happened from '88 thru '90?


Jordan had less help than anyone he's compared to - Horace Grant was worse than half the league's 3rd options...

And Jordan's #4 thru #12 guys were literally the worst in the league (shown above).

So those are the facts.... Take this L (again)

Btw, during Jordan's 2nd three-peat (1996-1998), Pippen's playoff averages were 17/7/5 on 40%... That's a HORRIBLE 2nd option... Pippen was not a top ten 2nd option during 2nd three-peat.

[Wade's Rings]

Oh, he'll be back with page-after-page of the same rehashed shit he has posted countless times, and which has been debunked by more than just myself here.

But, you can be sure it is coming...

I've seen 3ball kill you a couple timea on here, as recently as last week or so.

[Height Freak]

In '98 the Bulls were considered underdogs against the Jazz.

By the public opinion and mass media, but the true basketball insiders actually thought the opposite.

[3ball]

By the public opinion and mass media, but the true basketball insiders actually thought the opposite.
True, but look how little help Jordan had:

PIPPEN IN 1998 FINALS: he was injured and only had 15 ppg on 41%, including 8 and 6 points in last 2 games... this is less than Mosgov's 14/8 on 55% in 2015 Finals

RODMAN IN 1998 FINALS: wasn't even a starter and averaged 4/8 on 40%.. this is FAR less than Tristan Thompson's 10/13 on 50%.

Indeed - MJ had less help in 1998 Finals than Lebron had in 2015 Finals.. But the difference was that MJ played great defense - he didn't let Byron Russell become > Karl Malone, otherwise the Bulls would've lost just like the Cavs did to Warriors when Lebron let Iggy be > Curry..

Furthermore, MJ never shot 39% against single-coverage like Lebron did, and MJ came through massively in the 4th quarter and clutch.

[Riks]

There - you just said MJ's the goat - no one in history was the key player on that many title runs.

you're done.. take this L



Pippen and Grant were not good players as rookies in 1988 - you're telling outright lies here, as usual.

Rookie Pippen averaged 7.9 ppg in 20 minutes, while Grant averaged 8/6 in 22 minutes.. Those numbers are easily replaceable - they had little to do with the Bulls win totals that year.

The real key in 1988 was JORDAN'S IMPROVEMENT - he added GOAT defense to his league-leading scoring by garnering DPOY, and also league MVP.

Obviously, it was Jordan's growth into the GOAT two-way player and league MVP that made the Bulls better.



Grant was never a star - during his best years alongside Jordan (1991-1993), he averaged 13/9 in regular season and 11/8 in playoffs..

He was an ordinary, 11/8 play-finisher and a simple dunker.. He was never an all-star and only made ONE 2nd team all-defense while on the Bulls..

He never garnered an iota of defensive attention and no one thought for a nanosecond to let him create his own shot.. Half the league's 3rd options were better than him - we can go through and list them player for player and stat-for-stat - it's not even close - Grant was as ordinary as they come.



This is factually incorrect - if a power forward isn't an all-star OR all-defense, then they aren't elite.. MJ won all 6 rings without an all-star PF, and 4 of the 6 years he didn't have an all-defense PF.

Grant's ordinary play and stats were described above - compare him to fellow play-finisher and statistical peer, Tristan Thompson.

As for Rodman - during his time on the Bulls, he was 34-36 years old and he wasn't an all-star either (he hadn't made an all-star team since 1992) - nor did Rodman make the all-defense team in 1997 or 1998.. So similar to the first 3-peat, MJ won his second 3-peat without an all-star or all-defense caliber PF as well.

Rodman only averaged 4/8 in the 1997 playoffs and 1998 Finals.. He wasn't even a starter in the 1998 playoffs or Finals - Phil benched him for bad play... Rodman's last good year was 1996 - by 1997 and 1998, he was the same washed-up garbage he was for the 1999 Lakers, but no one noticed because the Bulls were 3-peating.



More lies - no player in history elevated his play more than Jordan did in 1991-1993 playoffs and Finals - the stats prove it:

Jordan averaged 34/6/7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game) during 1991-1993 playoffs, which was better than his RS averages of 31/6/6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game)...

In the Finals, he elevated his play even more - he averaged 36/7/8 in 1991-1993 Finals.. And we all remember his destruction of top 5 player Magic Johnson in 1991 Finals..... the famous shrug and record 6 threes in 1992 Finals.... and his record 41/9/6 on 51% in 1993 Finals.

No one in history ever played anywhere NEAR this well while winning championships.. So stfu with your blatant lies about MJ didn't elevate his game - you couldn't be more wrong.

Furthermore, Jordan also averaged at least 10 ppg more than Pippen in every playoff series of their careers (except two when MJ averaged 7 ppg and 5 ppg more) - no one in history did so much more than their 2nd option.



That's nothing - they were 3-peat champions with 3-peat strategy, know-how and execution on both sides of the ball.. Imagine if the Warriors win the ring the next two years, giving them a 3-peat - if Curry retires in 2018, the Warriors easily win 55.

But ultimately, the regular season is exhibition season compared to the playoffs - so the Warriors would still lose in the playoffs, probably the 2nd Round, just like the Bulls did.

The Bulls were an ordinary 2nd Round team without Jordan, and a 3-peat dynasty with him - those are the facts.. If we wanted to verify Jordan's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, we'd ask him to comeback and 3-peat again, while winning MVP's the whole way.... Done and Done.



The list below shows every Bulls player that played more than 10 mpg in 1993 (excluding MJ) - this was MJ's supporting cast in 1993:


.....................PPG.......MPG

Pippen............18.6...... 38.6
Grant.............13.2....... 35.6
Armstrong.......12.3.......30.4
Cartwright........5.6....... 19.9
S Williams........5.9........19.3
Paxson............ 4.2........17.5
R McCray......... 3.5........15.9
S King............. 5.4....... 13.9
W Perdue......... 4.7........13.9
T Tucker.......... 5.2........13.2
D Walker......... 2.6........13.1


The 1993 supporting cast only had 3 guys (Pippen/Grant/Armstrong) that played more than 20 mpg and averaged more than 6 ppg - the #4 thru #12 guys all played LESS than 20 mpg and averaged less than 6 ppg..

The Bulls relied on a mix of interchangeable stiffs who barely played and barely scored for the #4 thru #12 spots.. There isn't a single team in the league where the #4 thru #12 players are anywhere near this bad.



Jordan had less help than anyone he's compared to - Horace Grant was worse than half the league's 3rd options...

And Jordan's #4 thru #12 guys were literally the worst in the league (shown above).

So those are the facts.... Take this L (again)

Btw, during Jordan's 2nd three-peat (1996-1998), Pippen's playoff averages were 17/7/5 on 40%... That's a HORRIBLE 2nd option... Pippen was not a top ten 2nd option during 2nd three-peat.
So was this a copy and paste from past posts, or do you really waste your life like this writing and researching from scratch? Maybe you should use this time to help your mother by getting a job so she doesn't have to support you.

[Chadwin]

I don't buy for one second Chicago-Orlando in 95 wasn't at least considered 50/50. Sounds like another made up factoid by 3ball just to fellate his guy.

Whats interesting though is Jordan never losing as the overwhelming favorite. Like, he was never completely upset by an underdog a la Kobe to Detroit and LeBron to Dallas. One can definitely argue MJ won when he was supposed to.

Bulls ortg 109.5
Bulls drtg 104.3

Magic ortg 115.1
Magic drtg 107.8

Jordan was at 109/103

[LARRY BROWN]

he lost to Detroit twice 89 90

hes not perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:coleman:

pistions d destroyed him 2 years in a row!

[egokiller]

Once MJ molded Pippen into true playoff form, it was over. Rome wasn

[AirBonner]

What was MJ

[egokiller]

[QUOTE=AirBonner]What was MJ

[AirBonner]

His weakest was Lebron's toughest.
MJ never faced anything close to the 73 win warriors

[Turbo Slayer]

MJ never faced anything close to the 73 win warriors

:rockon:

[SouBeachTalents]

Nah, Bill Russell had the (nearly) perfect playoff record, 11 titles in 13 playoff runs

[Vino24]

Nah, Bill Russell had the (nearly) perfect playoff record, 11 titles in 13 playoff runs
facts :cheers:

[3ball]

MJ never faced anything close to the 73 win warriors
He also never had a big 3

You can't compare teams from the big 3 era to teams in a 2-star era

It's about who overcame an actual talent deficit, and Lebron never did, except the 07' ECF.. but mj overcame much bigger talent deficits then that



MJ never faced anything close to the 73 win warriors

Everyone knows that his "not 6, not 7" Heat had the most talent in the league from 2011-2014, and his 2016 Cavs saw their 2nd option demolish the Warriors' 1st option...

In other words, Lebron had Big 3 superteams and can't complain about facing talent deficits - it's his opponents that can complain about facing talent deficits to his colluded, stacked deck teams

Ultimately, Lebron had his own Big 3's and only faced a talent deficit in 07', 15', and 18'... 17' is debatable and the goat is supposed to make up for differences anyway - the fact that he never did shows he isn't the goat..

the only talent deficit he overcame was the 2007 ECF, and MJ overcame much bigger talent deficits then that - let me know if you need me to specify with all the relevant stats and proof