Is Jimmy Butler better than D. Rose ever was?

[Solefade]

Jimmy Butler isn't as flashy, but he's a very explosive scorer and guards the other team's best player at a high level. He's also a lot more durable and plays a crapload of minutes.

yay or nay?

[ISHGoat]

Jimmy Butler isn't as flashy, but he's a very explosive scorer and guards the other team's best player at a high level. He's also a lot more durable and plays a crapload of minutes.

yay or nay?

I would certainly say so. Better defense. Equivalent offense.

[FKAri]

No. Doesn't pressure the defense anywhere near as much.

[Smoke117]

Yes...he's actually a two way player.

[AirBonner]

Jimmy Butler isn't as flashy, but he's a very explosive scorer and guards the other team's best player at a high level. He's also a lot more durable and plays a crapload of minutes.

yay or nay?
Yes. His impact far exceeds anything Rose has done. Rose was a manufactured star.

[LoneyROY7]

2011 Rose was much more dynamic. It's not that close.

Y'all on that recency bias...Rose had the Bulls as the top seed in the East in back-to-back seasons, and that was WITH the Heatles at their best.

[imdaman99]

Ummm no. Rose was explosive in 2011. He didn't follow up a dominant game by scoring 4 points.

[yeaaaman]

2011 Rose was much more dynamic. It's not that close.

Y'all on that recency bias...Rose had the Bulls as the top seed in the East in back-to-back seasons, and that was WITH the Heatles at their best.

I agree with the recency bias. It happens with all sorts of discussions though. Rose is getting underrated now because of how brutal he's been over the last few years with injuries.

Let's not act like Butler is Lebron out there. He's good but he still needs to get better if he want's to be a legit MVP candidate.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Anyone that watched the 2010-11 NBA season knows that is not true

It wasnt a stretch during the regular season to say Rose was the best player in the NBA

He was doing things that no one had ever seen before at a SPEED no one had ever seen before AND will never see before

He was an ATHLETIC GOD

If you were to make a NBA team with the greatest peak athletes Rose 2011 is starting

He was MUST watch TV and the ratings for Bulls games (especially during the playoffs) broke records

Its not his fault that in his 3rd year he struggled against Prime Wade and Lebron.

[r0drig0lac]

lol no

[The_Pharcyde]

no

jimmy butler is good
but cmon rose won the MVP of the league by a wide margin
yeah there were some on message boards that campaigned howard should win or even lebron but be serious
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/5/3/2152070/derrick-rose-2011-mvp-award-vote
look at that voting

Rose was the bulls that season
good defender and the offense literally ran only through him

I can name so many games that year where he carried the Bulls to a win

Butler is awesome though!

[The_Pharcyde]

Anyone that watched the 2010-11 NBA season knows that is not true

It wasnt a stretch during the regular season to say Rose was the best player in the NBA

He was doing things that no one had ever seen before at a SPEED no one had ever seen before AND will never see before

He was an ATHLETIC GOD

If you were to make a NBA team with the greatest peak athletes Rose 2011 is starting

He was MUST watch TV and the ratings for Bulls games (especially during the playoffs) broke records

Its not his fault that in his 3rd year he struggled against Prime Wade and Lebron.

exactly

he got so much shit for losing to the Heat but name me any 3rd year player EVER that is beating Prime Lebron(top 10 ever) Prime Wade (top 20 ever) and prime bosh(consistent all str and probably HOFer) when your starting 2 guard is keith bogans and your 2nd option is carlos boozer

be realistic

its a shame what the lockout did to DRose

[scm5]

Anyone that watched the 2010-11 NBA season knows that is not true

It wasnt a stretch during the regular season to say Rose was the best player in the NBA

He was doing things that no one had ever seen before at a SPEED no one had ever seen before AND will never see before

He was an ATHLETIC GOD

If you were to make a NBA team with the greatest peak athletes Rose 2011 is starting

He was MUST watch TV and the ratings for Bulls games (especially during the playoffs) broke records

Its not his fault that in his 3rd year he struggled against Prime Wade and Lebron.

Give me Westbrook over Rose in terms of athleticism. Westbrook is just as explosive but doesn't need to rely on aerial acrobatics, dude is straight power and much stronger than Rose ever was.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Why are people giving Rose all the credit for the success of those Bulls teams? They were defensive juggernauts that held opponents well below their scoring averages. Rose wasn't shooting at an amazing level or anything like Curry and threw up plenty of bricks that needed to be rebounded.

Now if you want to argue that Rose's play-making is the difference maker and conclude that his greater offensive impact (due to higher play-making) outweighs Butler's greater defensive impact/2-way play, then that is a fair argument.

But to sit there and act like Rose was this efficient scorer that carried an otherwise mediocre Bulls team to 60+ wins is borderline ludicrous. It's akin to claiming that those LeBron-lead Cavs teams were garbage outside of LeBron when they both had in common being teams tailor-made to compliment their superstars at the time with great defense.

[FKAri]

Give me Westbrook over Rose in terms of athleticism. Westbrook is just as explosive but doesn't need to rely on aerial acrobatics, dude is straight power and much stronger than Rose ever was.

Rose was just as explosive with MUCH better body control. Westbrook has a higher motor and always bring it tho.

[TripleA]

Lol no even if Rose was severely overrated Jimmy Butler will never win a mvp over prime Lebron,D wade, Dwight Howard and Durant. He was just a higher calibre player than Butler.

[BigMacAttack]

Not even close.

[Pointguard]

Why are people giving Rose all the credit for the success of those Bulls teams? They were defensive juggernauts that held opponents well below their scoring averages. Rose wasn't shooting at an amazing level or anything like Curry and threw up plenty of bricks that needed to be rebounded.

Now if you want to argue that Rose's play-making is the difference maker and conclude that his greater offensive impact (due to higher play-making) outweighs Butler's greater defensive impact/2-way play, then that is a fair argument.

But to sit there and act like Rose was this efficient scorer that carried an otherwise mediocre Bulls team to 60+ wins is borderline ludicrous. It's akin to claiming that those LeBron-lead Cavs teams were garbage outside of LeBron when they both had in common being teams tailor-made to compliment their superstars at the time with great defense.
Nobody has ever said Rose was "some efficient scorer" like you alluded to twice, and have the nerve to act like its annoying you. That's your imagination and yours alone, and you acting like the resistance is strong. It's you dude. And I know its cool to make it sound like you got friends...

Carrying a team offensively is one of the hardest things to do in the sport and there are usually only one or two in the sport that can do it with any type of success and they are never only 22 years old. And its something that is rarely done efficiently. Rose is a PG. A team tailor made for him has finishers, shooters, athletes, other creators, an offensive coach, a great post game. Rose barely had any of that. Everything is easier if you have those qualities. Efficiency suffers if you don't have those qualities. And nothing is tailor made unless a player has those qualities on his team. If you think Butler can carry a team offensively you need your head checked.

[Solefade]

Funny how no one in this thread mentioned defense and also Butler is only averaging 2pts less than Rose's MVP season..bulls maintained the #1 seed in the east even though rose only played like 30 games in 2012

[scm5]

Rose was just as explosive with MUCH better body control. Westbrook has a higher motor and always bring it tho.

Comparing Westbrook and Rose is like comparing Jordan to Kobe.

Kobe probably had better body control than MJ, but he needed it as he wasn't as strong or powerful as MJ. When Westbrook drives in, he goes through or over people. When Rose drove in, he had to go around people.

[G-train]

Funny how no one in this thread mentioned defense and also Butler is only averaging 2pts less than Rose's MVP season..bulls maintained the #1 seed in the east even though rose only played like 30 games in 2012

2.6 ppg less.

39 games not 30.

They went 50-26 after going 62-20, and lost in first round to 76ers who were the 8th seed.

[Solefade]

2.6 ppg less.

39 games not 30.

They went 50-26 after going 62-20, and lost in first round to 76ers who were the 8th seed.

This is very nitpicky but I would give up 2.6ppg less to have elite defense and ability to defend the other team's best player

[G-train]

This is very nitpicky but I would give up 2.6ppg less to have elite defense and ability to defend the other team's best player

What about the other numbers?

and you forgot to address losing to the 8th seed.

[Pointguard]

Comparing Westbrook and Rose is like comparing Jordan to Kobe.

Kobe probably had better body control than MJ, but he needed it as he wasn't as strong or powerful as MJ. When Westbrook drives in, he goes through or over people. When Rose drove in, he had to go around people.
Well we don't need further proof that you don't know what you're talking about. Kobe had great body control but he was no Jordan. Jordan, like Rose, was the superior athlete to Kobe/Westbrook. The reason why Westbrook has trouble getting around Rose is because of Rose strength. Rose totally reorganizes Westbrook's thinking when attacking the basket - you can see it in games this year.

Rose dunk highlights are a lot of weaving because he's the focus of the defense. He's usually dunking on his third or fourth defender. Westbrook gets his on stealth. They weren't ready for his acceleration.

[sd3035]

Rose was amazing before the injury, but unfortunately he became a mental midget and completely sucks now

[Pointguard]

Rose was amazing before the injury, but unfortunately he became a mental midget and completely sucks now
Well, what's your excuse?

Couldn't get in the Cavs game and your brain shrunk right?

[BasedTom]

Lol no even if Rose was severely overrated Jimmy Butler will never win a mvp over prime Lebron,D wade, Dwight Howard and Durant. He was just a higher calibre player than Butler.
Are you implying that Dairy Crows deserved the MVP award? I hope that's not what you're implying.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

2015 and 2016 Jimmy are better than any version of Rose

Jimmy lowkey looked like mini Jordan in that Bucks series and recently has been playing on that level again

[KiiiiNG]

No, but he'll have the better career by a considerable margin.

Butler is smart, tough, resilient.... everything Rose isn't.

I always said Rose was/is the biggest idiot wimp I've ever seen. Two years in a row he sat on the bench when he coulda been playing in the playoffs.

So he was saving himself, right? FOR THIS? :oldlol:

Jesus Christ man. Derrick and all the idiots who ever had his back can go grab a remington 870 and blow your ****ing heads off.

[sd3035]

Well, what's your excuse?

Couldn't get in the Cavs game and your brain shrunk right?


lol what? :biggums:

[TripleA]

Are you implying that Dairy Crows deserved the MVP award? I hope that's not what you're implying.

No I'm not I'm just saying he has to be good enough to get to that point.

[warriorfan]

MVP Derrick Rose was the real deal. He would take over games constantly. I doubted Rose for awhile but after the playoffs he had in his MVP season I was convinced he was legit.

He was a great player especially considering he was only 22 at the time, he had room to improve. It seriously sucks badly that he got injured.

[Fire Colangelo]

Why are people giving Rose all the credit for the success of those Bulls teams? They were defensive juggernauts that held opponents well below their scoring averages. Rose wasn't shooting at an amazing level or anything like Curry and threw up plenty of bricks that needed to be rebounded.

Now if you want to argue that Rose's play-making is the difference maker and conclude that his greater offensive impact (due to higher play-making) outweighs Butler's greater defensive impact/2-way play, then that is a fair argument.

But to sit there and act like Rose was this efficient scorer that carried an otherwise mediocre Bulls team to 60+ wins is borderline ludicrous. It's akin to claiming that those LeBron-lead Cavs teams were garbage outside of LeBron when they both had in common being teams tailor-made to compliment their superstars at the time with great defense.

Nobody said Rose was efficient.... he's far from efficient. But he's always attacking, he's always putting pressure on the defense, which opens up a ton of offensive options for the Bulls. Rose was someone that could get to the paint at will, that's something Jimmy Butler will never get you.

It's not about scoring 25 PPG, a LOT of people could score 25 PPG given the green light. It's about setting the pace, constantly putting pressure on the defense while being insanely clutch.

Kind of like how KG and Dirk scores similar amount of points on similar FG% but Dirk can carry an offense much better than KG. In fact, the gap offensively between the two is bigger than the gap defensively IMO.

The fact that Rose was able to carry a respectable Bulls offense with guys like Keith Bogans and Ronnie Brewer starting is a feat itself IMO. Bulls offense dropped to 5th last and 2nd last the years after Rose got injured (the Bulls had the 11th and 5th best offense in 2011 and 2012) while losing to the Sixers.

[Graviton]

Butler right now has a better roster than Rose had in 2011 and he is putting up worse numbers and has a lower team record. :confusedshrug:

Carlos ****ing Boozer and Keith ****ing Bogans were starting players on that Bulls roster. :oldlol:

[ISHGoat]

Butler right now has a better roster than Rose had in 2011 and he is putting up worse numbers and has a lower team record. :confusedshrug:

Carlos ****ing Boozer and Keith ****ing Bogans were starting players on that Bulls roster. :oldlol:

Are we revising history to pretend that Carlos Boozer was some kind of scrub?

Boozer was just coming off a 20/11/3 on 56% 60% TS season.

Keith Bogans was a scrub, I'll give you that. Don't put Boozer in the same sentence as Bogans.

[Graviton]

Are we revising history to pretend that Carlos Boozer was some kind of scrub?

Boozer was just coming off a 20/11/3 on 56% 60% TS season.

Keith Bogans was a scrub, I'll give you that. Don't put Boozer in the same sentence as Bogans.
You obviously didn't watch those games, Boozer was the Enes Kanter of that era. Nobody gives a shit about those stats when he gives up open lanes to the basket 24/7 and got benched by Thibs in 4th quarters for Gibson due to his garbage defense. :oldlol:

[Pointguard]

Are we revising history to pretend that Carlos Boozer was some kind of scrub?

Boozer was just coming off a 20/11/3 on 56% 60% TS season.

Keith Bogans was a scrub, I'll give you that. Don't put Boozer in the same sentence as Bogans.
Boozer was getting benched in the fourth of the ECF. He didn't know the plays, yeah, all three of them.

[raprap]

Jimmy is a two way player so I put him in a high regard. Healthy rose was a beast tho.

[Pointguard]

Kind of like how KG and Dirk scores similar amount of points on similar FG% but Dirk can carry an offense much better than KG. In fact, the gap offensively between the two is bigger than the gap defensively IMO.

KG, a top five defensive player ever, ran one of the best defenses ever without known defensive pieces while being the main offensive player in getting a chip. The equivalent would be Dirk running one of the best offenses ever and being the main defensive player. The second half of the equation eliminates any possibility of a ring.

[Legends66NBA7]

That's your imagination and yours alone, and you acting like the resistance is strong. It's you dude. And I know its cool to make it sound like you got friends...

You alright ?

[Fire Colangelo]

KG, a top five defensive player ever, ran one of the best defenses ever without known defensive pieces while being the main offensive player in getting a chip. The equivalent would be Dirk running one of the best offenses ever and being the main defensive player. The second half of the equation eliminates any possibility of a ring.

KG did not run the Celtics offense... not even close. Even with 3 HOF players including KG himself, the 08 Celtics ran an above average offense.

Btw, that Celtics team had guys like Perkins, Tony Allen, Posey and Thibs. Far from a team without defensive pieces.

Dirk on the other hand is capable of leading mediocre casts to a top 5 offense in his sleep. Not to mention he's able to play within a top defense as well.

[Pointguard]

You alright ?
If you did the full quote, you wouldn't be lost. Why chop up the quote and then act confused? You're being silly.


KG did not run the Celtics offense... not even close. Even with 3 HOF players including KG himself, the 08 Celtics ran an above average offense.
They ran the offense thru KG. And he was their top scorer throughout the playoffs.


Btw, that Celtics team had guys like Perkins, Tony Allen, Posey and Thibs. Far from a team without defensive pieces.
Thibs doesn't play. Neither did Tony Allen - at least not five minutes per game. So you are basically only talking about Perkins who played solid one on one defense but the league didn't have more than two scoring centers. Posey did help but was coming off of the bench.


Dirk on the other hand is capable of leading mediocre casts to a top 5 offense in his sleep. Not to mention he's able to play within a top defense as well.
That's not what we are talking about. Dirk absolutely can't be the best defensive player on a winning team.

KG lead a top five offensive team. A team that he lead them in nearly every category all the way thru the WCF and where he nearly played every position. So you are saying that Dirk could take a team where he is the best defensive player to the conference finals? Do you really believe the stuff you say.

[The_Pharcyde]

Are we revising history to pretend that Carlos Boozer was some kind of scrub?

Boozer was just coming off a 20/11/3 on 56% 60% TS season.

Keith Bogans was a scrub, I'll give you that. Don't put Boozer in the same sentence as Bogans.


bogans was way inferior to boozer offensively you are right

but boozer came in fat and out of shape.. and thats after missing the beginning of the year because he "tripped over a bag"

he was supposed to be the 2nd option but he wasnt that guy once he left the jazz, he got paid and fell in love with the mid range jumper after jabstepping the whole shot clock

the bulls had to fill the 2nd option by committee
it was always rose and whoever stepped up that night.. sometimes booz, sometimes deng, maybe even korver at times

but it all ran through rose... he was the main pipeline to everything the bulls did offensively, the other players were contingent on rose


thibs defense did boost them forsure, he revolutionized the game.. but i have never seen any defensive scheme ever put the ball in the hoop

the bulls were solid once rose went down, but if you watched the games it was obvious it was all on heart and they didnt have the talent but they made up for it with will

2011 mvp rose was insane and that work load he had to carry eventually broke him during the lockout season, because it was the same burden on his back but 66 games in a way condensed time frame

the body is a chain and rose began getting nicked up and it eventually was a chain reaction into him popping his ACL

Butler is great and definitely worthy of being an all star starter this year but Rose was something more special than JB right now

[Black and White]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzfaLHm2bW0

How quickly they forget

[DMAVS41]

No

[DMAVS41]

If you did the full quote, you wouldn't be lost. Why chop up the quote and then act confused? You're being silly.

They ran the offense thru KG. And he was their top scorer throughout the playoffs.

Thibs doesn't play. Neither did Tony Allen - at least not five minutes per game. So you are basically only talking about Perkins who played solid one on one defense but the league didn't have more than two scoring centers. Posey did help but was coming off of the bench.

That's not what we are talking about. Dirk absolutely can't be the best defensive player on a winning team.

KG lead a top five offensive team. A team that he lead them in nearly every category all the way thru the WCF and where he nearly played every position. So you are saying that Dirk could take a team where he is the best defensive player to the conference finals? Do you really believe the stuff you say.

I understand your point...and I agree with it largely. You obviously don't want Dirk being the best defensive player on your team. While obviously you want that with KG...as he always would be outside a handful of guys in history.

KG also could potentially be the best offensive player on a title team...

However, I'd like to know who you think was making a huge defensive impact on the 03 Mavs. Dirk was a much better defender than Nash, Finley, Van Exel....he was better than Lafrentz. He was better than Walt Williams and Najera as well.

I mean...I guess Shawn Bradley was a better defender, but it's kind of meaningless as Bradley didn't play a real role.

Bell probably grades out worse, but he might have been better, but again...not a huge impact.

So, what you say above, is pretty much just false. Dirk probably was, when role and minutes are considered...the best defender on the 03 Mavs....and that was a 60 win team that finished 9th on defense...and made the WCF and were in a toss up series against the Spurs before Dirk got hurt.

You just don't grasp Dirk man. He wasn't nearly as bad on defense as you think...and this was pre peak Dirk in which he improved on that end.

So, as usual, you say something absurd. I wonder if you will take it back.

Here is you claim;

"Dirk absolutely can't be the best defender on a winning team"

Not only is that false from just a hypothetical standpoint, but the 03 Mavs blow that notion out of the water. Not only were they a winning team, but they were a 50/50 shot to win the title in the WCF.

Even if we say Bradley and Bell were better defensively...removing those two guys and playing worse defenders than Dirk at those positions does not transform the team...hell, it might get better to have two more good offensive players.

So...will you come of your claim?

And do you really believe the stuff you say?

[iBandwagon]

No. MVP Rose was better.

[Pointguard]

I understand your point...and I agree with it largely. You obviously don't want Dirk being the best defensive player on your team. While obviously you want that with KG...as he always would be outside a handful of guys in history.

KG also could potentially be the best offensive player on a title team...

However, I'd like to know who you think was making a huge defensive impact on the 03 Mavs. Dirk was a much better defender than Nash, Finley, Van Exel....he was better than Lafrentz. He was better than Walt Williams and Najera as well.
Najaera and Lafrentz guarded Dirk's man if he was an Allstar and it was a critical time of the game. It was rarely Dirk on KG or Duncan in general much less critical times after Duncan got his career high on Dirk the year a year or two before. So if another 2 players are designated to cover your position against the best, you aren't the second best at your own position.


I mean...I guess Shawn Bradley was a better defender, but it's kind of meaningless as Bradley didn't play a real role.
Bradley when he played was always a guy you noticed defensively. He and Lefrentz blocked a lot of shots and played a bigger role defensively than Dirk. And Najara was the gritty hustler they used to get up under players especially in the critical plays at the end of games.


You just don't grasp Dirk man. He wasn't nearly as bad on defense as you think...and this was pre peak Dirk in which he improved on that end.

So, as usual, you say something absurd. I wonder if you will take it back.
Hahahahahaha, You are super delusional. If the whole team had a designated defensive player to supplant them when they play the best at their position, and it goes two deep, that team would be at a handicap at two positions every game.


Here is you claim;

"Dirk absolutely can't be the best defender on a winning team"

Not only is that false from just a hypothetical standpoint, but the 03 Mavs blow that notion out of the water. Not only were they a winning team, but they were a 50/50 shot to win the title in the WCF.
Sure if we use our imagination and make Dirk a starter against real allstar PF's and pretend he's the best on his team. You know you are lying.


Even if we say Bradley and Bell were better defensively...removing those two guys and playing worse defenders than Dirk at those positions does not transform the team...hell, it might get better to have two more good offensive players.

So...will you come of your claim?

And do you really believe the stuff you say?
:lol Wow, this is moronic fantasy gone wild. Now guys who have designated defensive players at their position are the best defensive players on their team. Its like saying pitchers are better hitters than designated hitters in baseball. They are there because there is a liability there, not an asset.

your boy Fire Colangelo's original contention is that Dirk is closer to KG defensively than vice versa. You, an incredible lame geek, think that you are going to flip my saying to him, on me? Newsflash, KG is one of the games best two way players ever. You have to obliterate that from memory to start on to other stupidity: And that's what I was addressing when I made that statement. And do you really believe the stuff you say? And only a true basketball clown is going to say Dirk is now some great two way player or make that statement. Low and behold...

[nightprowler10]

Nah, I love Jimmy to death, but MVP Rose was on another level.

[BIG FURB]

No, but he'll have the better career by a considerable margin.

Butler is smart, tough, resilient.... everything Rose isn't.

I always said Rose was/is the biggest idiot wimp I've ever seen. Two years in a row he sat on the bench when he coulda been playing in the playoffs.

So he was saving himself, right? FOR THIS? :oldlol:

Jesus Christ man. Derrick and all the idiots who ever had his back can go grab a remington 870 and blow your ****ing heads off.

I don't get this particular critique. Most people are of the opinion that Rose right now is nowhere near the same player he was pre-injuries. Fair assessment right, he has looked bad for most of the season so far. So exactly what would've been the point of him coming back for those playoff runs when he would've been even less healthy than he is today?

[PP34Deuce]

MVP Rose had some an ultimate athletic advantage no one could stop him one on one. He used to make Westbrook, Paul, and any quick explosive guard look slow.

[DMAVS41]

Najaera and Lafrentz guarded Dirk's man if he was an Allstar and it was a critical time of the game. It was rarely Dirk on KG or Duncan in general much less critical times after Duncan got his career high on Dirk the year a year or two before. So if another 2 players are designated to cover your position against the best, you aren't the second best at your own position.

Bradley when he played was always a guy you noticed defensively. He and Lefrentz blocked a lot of shots and played a bigger role defensively than Dirk. And Najara was the gritty hustler they used to get up under players especially in the critical plays at the end of games.

Hahahahahaha, You are super delusional. If the whole team had a designated defensive player to supplant them when they play the best at their position, and it goes two deep, that team would be at a handicap at two positions every game.

Sure if we use our imagination and make Dirk a starter against real allstar PF's and pretend he's the best on his team. You know you are lying.

:lol Wow, this is moronic fantasy gone wild. Now guys who have designated defensive players at their position are the best defensive players on their team. Its like saying pitchers are better hitters than designated hitters in baseball. They are there because there is a liability there, not an asset.

your boy Fire Colangelo's original contention is that Dirk is closer to KG defensively than vice versa. You, an incredible lame geek, think that you are going to flip my saying to him, on me? Newsflash, KG is one of the games best two way players ever. You have to obliterate that from memory to start on to other stupidity: And that's what I was addressing when I made that statement. And do you really believe the stuff you say? And only a true basketball clown is going to say Dirk is now some great two way player or make that statement. Low and behold...


Delusional? No, that would be you.

I'll repeat it...there was nobody on the 03 Mavs that played defense at a higher level of note than Dirk. Also, Dirk was clearly the best defender of the group that played heavy minutes as Nash, Finley, and Nick were worse defenders.

I don't care about what anyone else said.

You claimed Dirk couldn't be the best defender on a winning team...when in reality he was essentially the best defender on a near title winning team. Again, pre peak Dirk...

I want you to actually answer. Are you claiming that the 03 Mavs with some worse defenders in place of Bradley, Bell, and Najera...wouldn't have been over .500?

So...to be a clear...a team like;

Dirk
Nash
Finley
Nick
Raef
Terry
Brad Miller
Walt Williams

You are telling me that team can't break .500?

Look man...if you are going to post about Dirk...just make sense. Just say something that at least can be defended.

Don't go on and on about a Dirk led team on defense and what they can't do...when a pre peak Dirk was at least as good as anyone else defensively based on minutes played and was a 50/50 shot to win the title going into the WCF.

I mean...your bias knows no bounds. I've now heard it all...now the 03 Mavs surrounded Dirk with defensive monsters.

It's stupid...carry on though...just know you talked out of your ass yet again about something you are ignorant about...and get owned again.

The 03 Mavs literally are the exact opposite of what you claim. The 03 Mavs were bad group of defenders outside of Dirk. Nash was an all time bad defender...Finley wasn't good on that end anymore...Nick wasn't good. Raef got pushed around a lot and was slow. Najera worked hard but was undersized. Bradley, Griffin, and Bell are played limited roles...

Yet somehow, this terrible defender playing the most minutes surrounded by bad defenders...got his team to 60 wins, the WCF, and the 9th best defense.

GTFO...you ignorant clown

[Pushxx]

Anyone that watched the 2010-11 NBA season knows that is not true

It wasnt a stretch during the regular season to say Rose was the best player in the NBA

He was doing things that no one had ever seen before at a SPEED no one had ever seen before AND will never see before

He was an ATHLETIC GOD

If you were to make a NBA team with the greatest peak athletes Rose 2011 is starting

He was MUST watch TV and the ratings for Bulls games (especially during the playoffs) broke records

Its not his fault that in his 3rd year he struggled against Prime Wade and Lebron.

Yet LeBron and Dwight were better all season anyway. What does that make them?

[Pointguard]

I don't care about what anyone else said.
You are jumping in somebody else's argument. So yeah you care unless he's your alternate.


You claimed Dirk couldn't be the best defender on a winning team...when in reality he was essentially the best defender on a near title winning team. Again, pre peak Dirk...
The best defender on the team can at least guard superstars at his position. Not have other players work a handicap system for him. After Duncan got his career high on Dirk you rarely seen Dirk guarding the super stars. You don't want stars thinking their career high every time they see Dirk.

I want you to actually answer. Are you claiming that the 03 Mavs with some worse defenders in place of Bradley, Bell, and Najera...wouldn't have been over .500?
I don't know or care.



I mean...your bias knows no bounds. I've now heard it all...now the 03 Mavs surrounded Dirk with defensive monsters.
where and who said that.


It's stupid...carry on though...just know you talked out of your ass yet again about something you are ignorant about...and get owned again.
New Year. I'm not going to let you stalk me endlessly and start off nice with you. That day is gone. Its four or five years now of this obnoxious stalking behavior, the new policy is F trying to be diplomatic with you at first. If you join an argument, you are taking on the context of the previous person, idiot.


Yet somehow, this terrible defender playing the most minutes surrounded by bad defenders...got his team to 60 wins, the WCF, and the 9th best defense.

:lol sure and he was the defensive keg stopping Shaq, Duncan, KG etc. why not let your imagination run wild. They won on their offense and to suggest otherwise is sheer stupidity. When you joined the argument I mentioned that KG had won with an offensive team. The transverse would be Dirk winning with a defensive team. The team in question here was an offensive team clown. Don't join the argument if context overwhelms you.

[DMAVS41]

You are jumping in somebody else's argument. So yeah you care unless he's your alternate.

The best defender on the team can at least guard superstars at his position. Not have other players work a handicap system for him. After Duncan got his career high on Dirk you rarely seen Dirk guarding the super stars. You don't want stars thinking their career high every time they see Dirk.
I don't know or care.


where and who said that.

New Year. I'm not going to let you stalk me endlessly and start off nice with you. That day is gone. Its four or five years now of this obnoxious stalking behavior, the new policy is F trying to be diplomatic with you at first. If you join an argument, you are taking on the context of the previous person, idiot.

:lol sure and he was the defensive keg stopping Shaq, Duncan, KG etc. why not let your imagination run wild. They won on their offense and to suggest otherwise is sheer stupidity. When you joined the argument I mentioned that KG had won with an offensive team. The transverse would be Dirk winning with a defensive team. The team in question here was an offensive team clown. Don't join the argument if context overwhelms you.

There is no context.

You made a claim...you can't support it.

You are so ignorant that you didn't even realize the success of a pre peak Dirk surrounded by mostly defensive negatives playing most of their minutes.

Notice how you are now shifting the goal posts of the argument. Of course the 03 Mavs won more off their offense.

You claimed nothing about offense. You said...again;

"Dirk can't be the best defender on a winning team"

This is objectively false in both reality and in a hypothetical.

Sorry...when a pre peak Dirk can lead that 03 Mavs to 60 wins and a 50/50 shot at the title....with 3 horrid defenders...and no real center....in which he plays the most minutes and was easily the best defender of the big minutes guys....

You lose...

And you look even dumber trying to prop up Raef Lafrentz and a borderline irrelevant Shawn Bradley.

Just take the loss....yet again

[Fire Colangelo]

They ran the offense thru KG. And he was their top scorer throughout the playoffs.

Thibs doesn't play. Neither did Tony Allen - at least not five minutes per game. So you are basically only talking about Perkins who played solid one on one defense but the league didn't have more than two scoring centers. Posey did help but was coming off of the bench.

That's not what we are talking about. Dirk absolutely can't be the best defensive player on a winning team.

KG lead a top five offensive team. A team that he lead them in nearly every category all the way thru the WCF and where he nearly played every position. So you are saying that Dirk could take a team where he is the best defensive player to the conference finals? Do you really believe the stuff you say.

They ran the offense through PP and Ray as much as KG. PP led the the team in scoring in the regular season and the finals. Not to mention they had just an above average offense that season. This kinda proves my point that KG is unable to really carry a top offense, the 08 Celtics won on their defense and I give KG credit for that.

You said that they had NO defensive personnel and I listed one of the greatest defensive coaches of the decade and 3 very good defensive players that played significant minutes on a championship team. I know you're exaggerating but Tony Allen played ~20 MPG that year iirc.

I never said Dirk could be the best defensive player, he doesn't need to be. What I was trying to say is that he's fully capable of playing within a top defense, which means that he's an above average defensive player. You pair him with a guy like Chandler, or any decent Center you're pretty much good to go.

KG was the best player in 04 but he had tons of offensive options in Sprewell and Cassell. And 04 was the only year when KG's team was top offensively and offensively, in every other year either they were good offensively and shit defensively or vice versa.

Dirk routinely led his team in defensive win shares btw. Not saying he's the best defensive player on his team's, but he plays a large role and is far from a liability.

you obviously didn't agree with what I said about the gap between Dirk and KG defensively being the same as their gap offensively. But think about it this way:

Most people have KG and Dirk in the same tier as players, doesn't matter who's better, they're in the same tier. Now obviously KG has the edge defensively and Dirk has the edge offensively. For them to be in the same tier as players, the gap between their defensively abilities has to be pretty much the same as the gap between their offensively abilities, no?

Unless you're trying to argue that KG is on another compared to Dirk..... Then you've lost it lol.

[Pointguard]

There is no context.

You made a claim...you can't support it.

You are so ignorant that you didn't even realize the success of a pre peak Dirk surrounded by mostly defensive negatives playing most of their minutes.

Notice how you are now shifting the goal posts of the argument. Of course the 03 Mavs won more off their offense.
You shifted the goal post. My claims were here all along and obvious as day. Dirk is not as close to KG in defense vs the inverse. That's the argument you joined.


You claimed nothing about offense. You said...again;

"Dirk can't be the best defender on a winning team"
The obvious as day context is that KG lead an offensive team to the WCF. The inverse would be Drik leading a defensive team deep in the playoffs. That's the whole context. Its obvious as day. All of this comes out of that argument. I'm sorry that's my and Colangelo's argument.


This is objectively false in both reality and in a hypothetical.
Dirk doesn't even hold his position down on that team. He has a supplement player take over for him when the going gets tough. This never happens when you are the best. You have to hold your own to be the best on your team. THAT"S BARE MINIMUM. Only in your imaginary world does this happen. Its a crazy reach.


Sorry...when a pre peak Dirk can lead that 03 Mavs to 60 wins and a 50/50 shot at the title....with 3 horrid defenders...and no real center....in which he plays the most minutes and was easily the best defender of the big minutes guys....

You lose...

It was an offensive team that won but that's academic. You can sit here and imagine Dirk being better than the guys that did his job when the thought of an all star PF played against them. Just the thought. I assure you no PF's got career highs on Najara. I can't speak for Dirk's other replacement but he was only in the league because his work on defense, could shoot a little.

[tontoz]

It must be killing nate that he can't post in this thread. :oldlol:

[tontoz]

Interersting that Dirk and KG are ranked 7th and 8th all time in win shares.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html

[jayfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzfaLHm2bW0

How quickly they forget

Makes the thread seem silly, doesn't it?




.

[Cold soul]

2011 Rose was better.

[Pointguard]

They ran the offense through PP and Ray as much as KG. PP led the the team in scoring in the regular season and the finals. Not to mention they had just an above average offense that season. This kinda proves my point that KG is unable to really carry a top offense, the 08 Celtics won on their defense and I give KG credit for that. They won in 04 and went to the conference finals where Cassell got hurt. That was a top five offensive team.


You said that they had NO defensive personnel and I listed one of the greatest defensive coaches of the decade and 3 very good defensive players that played significant minutes on a championship team. I know you're exaggerating but Tony Allen played ~20 MPG that year iirc.
In the playoffs it was 4 min per game. He was starting to become an offensive player the year before. Posey came off of the bench but was solid. Perk was a good one one defender in a league that had on one offensive threat at that position.


KG was the best player in 04 but he had tons of offensive options in Sprewell and Cassell. And 04 was the only year when KG's team was top offensively and offensively, in every other year either they were good offensively and shit defensively or vice versa.
Sprewell only played one more year and Cassell was a 34 year old PG that KG out assisted in the playoffs. Minny had the worst GM in the league and they made tons of mistakes with the franchise. No player ever overcomes that.


Dirk routinely led his team in defensive win shares btw. Not saying he's the best defensive player on his team's, but he plays a large role and is far from a liability.
He didn't even cover his own position defensively. He took the weaker cover for years because that's what he was. A lot of players can get their win shares up that way.


you obviously didn't agree with what I said about the gap between Dirk and KG defensively being the same as their gap offensively. But think about it this way:

Most people have KG and Dirk in the same tier as players, doesn't matter who's better, they're in the same tier. Now obviously KG has the edge defensively and Dirk has the edge offensively. For them to be in the same tier as players, the gap between their defensively abilities has to be pretty much the same as the gap between their offensively abilities, no?

Unless you're trying to argue that KG is on another compared to Dirk..... That doesn't tranfer into the statement you were saying at all.
KG is an all time great on both sides of the ball. One of the greatest defenders of all time. The inverse would be Dirk one of the greatest offensive players of all time. Which I flat out don't have him as that. During his time Shaq was the top offensive player for three years. Kobe had a two/three year reign. Lebron three years, Durant two/three years, Wade two years, Curry closing in on two years. Dirk has a shot at one year among contemporaries alone, with six players making very clear statements on being that top tier guy that he played against. And almost all of them had more things going on in their game than Dirk too.

[Jacks3]

Dirk is easily one of the best offensive players of all-time.

[macpierce]

Depends, if they go far in the playoffs then yes

[DMAVS41]

You shifted the goal post. My claims were here all along and obvious as day. Dirk is not as close to KG in defense vs the inverse. That's the argument you joined.

The obvious as day context is that KG lead an offensive team to the WCF. The inverse would be Drik leading a defensive team deep in the playoffs. That's the whole context. Its obvious as day. All of this comes out of that argument. I'm sorry that's my and Colangelo's argument.

Dirk doesn't even hold his position down on that team. He has a supplement player take over for him when the going gets tough. This never happens when you are the best. You have to hold your own to be the best on your team. THAT"S BARE MINIMUM. Only in your imaginary world does this happen. Its a crazy reach.

It was an offensive team that won but that's academic. You can sit here and imagine Dirk being better than the guys that did his job when the thought of an all star PF played against them. Just the thought. I assure you no PF's got career highs on Najara. I can't speak for Dirk's other replacement but he was only in the league because his work on defense, could shoot a little.


I entered no conversation.

You made an objectively false claim.

Whether a team wins or loses based on offense or defense is not relevant to your claim.

You claimed that Dirk can't be the best defender on a team over .500.

Again, this is a false claim....as Dirk was arguably the best defender on the 03 Mavs given his role and minutes played.

He certainly was, by far, the best big minute defender on that team....as the other big minute players were all terrible defensively.

And, to make it worse for you, this was pre peak Dirk on both sides of the ball.

You earlier ignored my question about the team I presented you with...saying you don't know nor care....but that is what you are claiming.

You are claiming that a team of;

Dirk/Nash/Finley/Nick/Raef/Terry/Brad Miller would not be able to win over 41 games with peak Dirk.

And if you really think that...you need to stop ****ing discussing basketball.

Hell, Dirk played out of position center as the clear cut best defender of any player playing significant minutes on the 04 team...and while that team sucked defensively as it should have...they still won 52 games.

You see why you are so hard to converse with? You make a claim about not being able to be over .500....

I then show you that a pre peak Dirk was able to win 52 games with a roster of:

Nash/Finley/Walker/Jamison as the big minute players. Say what you want about Dirk, but he's easily better defensively than any of those guys.

So....:confusedshrug:

[Fire Colangelo]

They won in 04 and went to the conference finals where Cassell got hurt. That was a top five offensive team.

I did mention 2004 in my last post. It was the only year where KG "led" a top offense and defense. One year out of a 20 year career.


In the playoffs it was 4 min per game. He was starting to become an offensive player the year before. Posey came off of the bench but was solid. Perk was a good one one defender in a league that had on one offensive threat at that position.

Was referring to the regular season.

Like I said, the only reason I brought these guys up is to counter your claim that the Celtics had no defensive personnel. Excluding Tony Allen, you still had a great defensive coach and two good defensive role players. Allen, Pierce and Rondo weren't scrubs on that end either. Far from a team with no defensive personnel.


Sprewell only played one more year and Cassell was a 34 year old PG that KG out assisted in the playoffs. Minny had the worst GM in the league and they made tons of mistakes with the franchise. No player ever overcomes that.

Why does it matter if Sprewell only played one more year? He still averaged 20ppg in the playoffs and had some big moments in the playoffs that year. Game 5 against the Lakers comes to mind.

Cassell averaged like 19/8 that year in the regular season... so why does it matter if he was 34 years old? Yeah he got injured and it sucks, but he was a legit player when he was healthy, and was just as important as KG was offensively.


He didn't even cover his own position defensively. He took the weaker cover for years because that's what he was. A lot of players can get their win shares up that way.

You act like Dirk had an ATG defensive team built around him.... He didn't.


That doesn't tranfer into the statement you were saying at all.
KG is an all time great on both sides of the ball. One of the greatest defenders of all time. The inverse would be Dirk one of the greatest offensive players of all time. Which I flat out don't have him as that. During his time Shaq was the top offensive player for three years. Kobe had a two/three year reign. Lebron three years, Durant two/three years, Wade two years, Curry closing in on two years. Dirk has a shot at one year among contemporaries alone, with six players making very clear statements on being that top tier guy that he played against. And almost all of them had more things going on in their game than Dirk too.

You're confused.

I mean... I could say the same thing about KG... Was he really as good of a defender than Tim Duncan, or Ben Wallace? just to name a few.

Dirk is one of the greatest offensive players of all time. Sure, guys like Shaq, and Kobe are better offensive players in terms of individual scoring. But the spacing Dirk provides by just standing on the court + his scoring ability makes him one of the hardest guys to guard.

We're talking about a player that's led a top offensive in just about every single year of his career. There aren't a lot of players that's done that, especially with the kind of supporting Dirk has gotten. And let's not pretend the Mavs were a great franchise before Dirk got there, they were a mess before they drafted Dirk.

Similar to how Adrian Dantley is probably one of the greatest individual scorers of all time... But as an offensive player, I'd take A LOT of guys over him.

[PeroAntic]

How did this thread go from Butler vs Rose to KG vs Dirk lol.

Anyway hard question because MVP Rose was truly something unique and unseen before, just unstoppable. But Jimmy in his current final form is almost as dominant offensively just in a different way, and defensively he is better. Both clutch af too. I'd still go with Rose, the wow factor makes the difference with all else equal.

[RRR3]

How did this thread go from Butler vs Rose to KG vs Dirk lol.

Anyway hard question because MVP Rose was truly something unique and unseen before, just unstoppable. But Jimmy in his current final form is almost as dominant offensively just in a different way, and defensively he is better. Both clutch af too. I'd still go with Rose, the wow factor makes the difference with all else equal.
No way does Jimmy shoot 6% with LeBron guarding him. Stop overrating Rose he was never nearly as good as you think he was.

[hateraid]

Is Butler better than Morant? Because that's a good measuring stick. And Rose was better than Morant is today

[SouBeachTalents]

Yes.

[PeroAntic]

No way does Jimmy shoot 6% with LeBron guarding him. Stop overrating Rose he was never nearly as good as you think he was.

Lebron didn't guard Rose, the whole team guarded Rose. If he had help in the form of at least 2015 Jimmy, history is completely different. Such a shame about the time discrepancy. Jimmy started rising as Derrick started falling.

[RRR3]

Lebron didn't guard Rose, the whole team guarded Rose. If he had help in the form of at least 2015 Jimmy, history is completely different. Such a shame about the time discrepancy. Jimmy started rising as Derrick started falling.
Rose had 3 other all-stars on his team lol. LeBron absolutely did guard him and shut him down in the fourth quarters, sorry it was so painful that you blocked it from your memory :(

Jimmy is easily better.

[TheMan]

An injury free Rose with Jimmy Buckets would've won the Bulls a title or two but fate has been very cruel to us Bulls fans ever since fat boy Krause busted up the MJ led Bulls dynasty:(

It was like God's way of telling us that it's not that easy building championship caliber teams in the NBA unless you're the Lakers and Celtics...

[Celtics 1825]

He absolutely is now. Rose's MVP year was probably the weakest I can remember since I started watching ball

[Micku]

He absolutely is now. Rose's MVP year was probably the weakest I can remember since I started watching ball

I think D.Rose would play better now because of how the game is played. It free up the offensive players. And his driving and kick style would be more beneficial in this era of play due to the spacing and shooting.

Although Jimmy Butler in the POs I think is a different animal. He plays both ends and is still efficient.

[Axe]

Duh.

[Pointguard]

He absolutely is now. Rose's MVP year was probably the weakest I can remember since I started watching ball

Rose, in his MVP year, lead the league in 4th quarter points - most of the games were close after the third quarter. His team was a defensive team with no player in the top ten of any category. They DOMINATED the other elite 7 teams. Not one of the other top 7 teams beat them after Dec. 12th. Yeah, he was beating all the top teams, super teams, in the fourth quarter without a blemish for four months. It was one of the youngest teams and due to a ton of injuries to the 2nd and 3rd best players, well over half their games the Bulls didn't have one of the other. The Bulls had the best record in the league. There were five teams that had a better record than the Bulls at the All Star break. Please tell me an MVP that had the best record in the league with a young team, or a greatly injured team while dominating the elite teams (West coast was trashed by the Bulls that year) and dominating the elite players at his position as well.

[SpaceJammeR]

hell nahhh lol

[PeroAntic]

Rose, in his MVP year, lead the league in 4th quarter points - most of the games were close after the third quarter. His team was a defensive team with no player in the top ten of any category. They DOMINATED the other elite 7 teams. Not one of the other top 7 teams beat them after Dec. 12th. Yeah, he was beating all the top teams, super teams, in the fourth quarter without a blemish for four months. It was one of the youngest teams and due to a ton of injuries to the 2nd and 3rd best players, well over half their games the Bulls didn't have one of the other. The Bulls had the best record in the league. There were five teams that had a better record than the Bulls at the All Star break. Please tell me an MVP that had the best record in the league with a young team, or a greatly injured team while dominating the elite teams (West coast was trashed by the Bulls that year) and dominating the elite players at his position as well.

Man is spitting truth here. Rose MVP is actually underrated. Every player talking about that season is in absolute awe of what he was doing. Cue boxwatchers ten years later though...

[HylianNightmare]

Unfortunately yes

[ArbitraryWater]

hell nahhh lol


:biggums:

[Foster5k]

Jimmy dropping teams off left and right. At first sight, the answer seems pretty clear that Jimmy is better but pre-injury Rose was a beast.

The thing is, I'm still not scared of Miami with Jimmy to win the championship. If it was Miami, with MVP Rose, I prob would be thinking they had a shot.

Miami aint winning shit this year. Props to Jimmy though. :oldlol:

[SpaceJammeR]

peak for peak. rose easily. sadly people forget how much of a monster he was.

[TheMan]

peak for peak. rose easily. sadly people forget how much of a monster he was.

Yep, like they all have amnesia and only remember him as the broken body version of Rose. It's hard to imagine Rose would've gone injury free with the reckless style of play that he had but in an alternate universe where his body doesn't break down, him and Jimmy Buckets would've been a formidable duo, along with Noah, they could have won a chip or two :(

[L.Kizzle]

No, simple.

[Pointguard]

Jimmy dropping teams off left and right. At first sight, the answer seems pretty clear that Jimmy is better but pre-injury Rose was a beast.


It has nothing to do with sight at all. Its pure imagination on you guys part. You think Jimmy Butler could lead a young, injured, nearly talentless team to the best record in the league with a rookie coach who never had offensive schemes? What in the world has Jimmy done all these years that compares to half of that?