Number of times Kareem Abdul-Jabbar / Wilt Chamberlain scored 45 or more points:

[CavaliersFTW]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 22 times:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-grNfuBI5wm0/Vp_CbmbXSjI/AAAAAAAAHes/zajSNzLjLMQ/s0-Ic42/Kareem%25252045%252520point%252520games%252520%252 52822%252529.jpg

Wilt Chamberlain - 184 times:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sa_IcX2oKmk/Vp_Cfw0ly2I/AAAAAAAAHe8/_sHArF9KX-M/s0-Ic42/Chamberlain%25252045%252520point%252520games.jpg

[CavaliersFTW]

Interesting to note: the guy who Wilt scored 100 points on, is also in Kareem's "45 or more" column. Kareem scored 46 points on Darrall Imhoff. Kareem also scored 46 points on Hakeem Olajuwon.

[dankok8]

Wilt averaged 40 shots a game over his entire 1961-1962 season. Kareem never took 40 shots in any game in his career.

I'm not saying that Kareem could ever volume score the way Wilt did. He most probably couldn't... But Wilt's scoring is as much a tribute to his stamina as his skill and dominance.

[kennethgriffin]

wilt is the greatest regular season player of all time
































he was a choking ass bitch made beta in the playoffs though

[feyki]

30+ points on playoffs ;

Kareem - 75

Wilt - 42

[choppermagic]

I dont know what the OP is trying to prove here, but what i see...

Both KAJ and Wilt were dam productive centers and deserved their HOF spots. Kudos to both of them.

[LAZERUSS]

I dont know what the OP is trying to prove here, but what i see...

Both KAJ and Wilt were dam productive centers and deserved their HOF spots. Kudos to both of them.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

I dont know what the OP is trying to prove here, but what i see...

Both KAJ and Wilt were dam productive centers and deserved their HOF spots. Kudos to both of them.
I'm not trying to prove anything other than show some context of what Wilt's scoring prowess was. Dismiss it, or do whatever you want. But I'm showing it as the stats have been recording along side another GOAT tier scoring center that everyone is more familiar with.

[kennethgriffin]

I dont know what the OP is trying to prove here, but what i see...

Both KAJ and Wilt were dam productive centers and deserved their HOF spots. Kudos to both of them.


everyone and their dog makes the basketball hall of fame

is that even an accomplishment

[La Frescobaldi]

everyone and their dog makes the basketball hall of fame

is that even an accomplishment
looking at all those red bars you don't even make ish hall of fame

[VengefulAngel]

looking at all those red bars you don't even make ish hall of fame

He does make the hall of shame.

[Gileraracer]

Weak era. :confusedshrug:

DeAndre Jordan would average 40PPG in the 60s

[LAZERUSS]

Weak era. :confusedshrug:

DeAndre Jordan would average 40PPG in the 60s

Maybe on his middle school team, but he would have been selling popcorn at NBA games.

[Elosha]

Maybe on his middle school team, but he would have been selling popcorn at NBA games.

No way. You might argue DeAndre wouldn't be the best or even dominant, but to argue he wouldn't even make the league in the 60's??? No way, and I don't care how small or competitive the league was. DJ's vertical is higher than almost any big player in history, yes including Wilt. He would block tons of shots in the faster paced 60's and get tons of rebounds.

Would he be better than Wilt, Russell, Bellamy, Reed, or other elite bigs? Almost certainly he would not be better than any of them given his poor offense. But he'd definitely make the league.

[LAZERUSS]

No way. You might argue DeAndre wouldn't be the best or even dominant, but to argue he wouldn't even make the league in the 60's??? No way, and I don't care how small or competitive the league was. DJ's vertical is higher than almost any big player in history, yes including Wilt. He would block tons of shots in the faster paced 60's and get tons of rebounds.

Would he be better than Wilt, Russell, Bellamy, Reed, or other elite bigs? Almost certainly he would not be better than any of them given his poor offense. But he'd definitely make the league.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/DeAndre-Jordan-1072/

30.5"

Right alongside Cousins' 27.5"

And both are no taller than Bill Russell.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Weak era. :confusedshrug:

DeAndre Jordan would average 40PPG in the 60s
You're an idiot.

Cool thread, interesting to see Wilt's regular season dominance.

[feyki]

Deandre would fourth best center in 1960's . He has great defence and rebounding , and those were so important in 60's .

He hasn't even great vertical as Bill,Wilt,Kareem . But he looks anomaly in this poverty era for center position .

[LAZERUSS]

Deandre would fourth best center in 1960's . He has great defence and rebounding , and those were so important in 60's .

He hasn't even great vertical as Bill,Wilt,Kareem . But he looks anomaly in this poverty era for center position .

First of all, I was being semi-facetious on my initial response.

Secondly...nope, Jordan would be no better than Russell, Bellamy, Reed, Thurmond, nor Wilt. Hell, even Beaty.

Go to 1968 and Hayes, and go to '69, and add in KAJ.

And by '74, Gilmore, Unseld, Lanier, Cowens, McAdoo, et al.

[CavaliersFTW]

Deandre would fourth best center in 1960's . He has great defence and rebounding , and those were so important in 60's .

He hasn't even great vertical as Bill,Wilt,Kareem . But he looks anomaly in this poverty era for center position .
This is the 4th best center of the 60's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYCnrkv_GL8

And he's a lot better than DJ.

[feyki]

First of all, I was being semi-facetious on my initial response.

Secondly...nope, Jordan would be no better than Russell, Bellamy, Reed, Thurmond, nor Wilt. Hell, even Beaty.

Go to 1968 and Hayes, and go to '69, and add in KAJ.

And by '74, Gilmore, Unseld, Lanier, Cowens, McAdoo, et al.


He wouldn't better than Bill and Wilt for sure . Nate also would better than him . But Reed didn't play much in 60's and Deandre would better than Walt to me . He has clearly better rebounding and defending than Bellamy . You know How these important in 60's .

Beaty? That's funny , no :D .


This is the 4th best center of the 60's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYCnrkv_GL8

And he's a lot better than DJ.

No he wasn't . Deandre has rebound and defence over him .

[scm5]

30+ points on playoffs ;

Kareem - 75

Wilt - 42

damnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

[CavaliersFTW]

He wouldn't better than Bill and Wilt for sure . Nate also would better than him . But Reed didn't play much in 60's and Deandre would better than Walt to me . He has clearly better rebounding and defending than Bellamy . You know How these important in 60's .

Beaty? That's funny , no :D .



No he wasn't . Deandre has rebound and defence over him .
By slight margins - meanwhile Bellamy is one of the best all around offensive centers of his era or any.

[Asukal]

30+ points on playoffs ;

Kareem - 75

Wilt - 42

Wilt exposed. :oldlol: :lol :roll:

[feyki]

By slight margins - meanwhile Bellamy is one of the best all around offensive centers of his era or any.

Cmon , he clearly better on defence and rebounding . Walt had solid offensive skills , you're right . But who is better , Al-Jeff or Deandre ? And think abouth that to 60's ..

[CavaliersFTW]

Cmon , he clearly better on defence and rebounding . Walt had solid offensive skills , you're right . But who is better , Al-Jeff or Deandre ? And think abouth that to 60's ..
Al Jeff doesn't have the defensive or rebounding presence of Walt Bellamy though. Bellamy plays on both ends. Not just one.

[4 Inches]

Nice we have established that Wilt is a greater statpadder :applause:
Next.

[feyki]

Al Jeff doesn't have the defensive or rebounding presence of Walt Bellamy though. Bellamy plays on both ends. Not just one.


Well , let's look at numbers ;

Walt's 23 to 27 ages on 100 poss at season ;

Rebounds - 14

Deandre ;

Rebounds - 19

Deandre has solid defensive numbers like def ws , defrat . And Bellamy had worse than league average teams as a defence .

Deandre has huge margin against Walt on defence and rebounds .

[Hammertime]

Wait, nevermind the pointless Wilt vs Kareem debate, but Kareem had a game a few months before his 39th birthday where he dropped 46-11-4? And shot 70%? And against the frontline of Ralph Sampson and Hakeem ****ing Olajuwon who had led the Rockets to a 33-16 record at that point? And in Houston?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198602060HOU.html

:biggums:

[ProfessorMurder]

30+ points on playoffs ;

Kareem - 75

Wilt - 42

You realize Kareem played in 77 more playoff games?

With more teams in the league, when rounds were longer, and played with Magic.

Why use 30+, why not 35+?

Wilt scored 35 or more 23 times in 160 playoff games
Kareem scored 35 or more 26 times in 237 playoff games.

[Hammertime]

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/09/13/20130803-kareem-vs-rockets.nba/

Kareem dropping 46 on the Rockets. I forgot the Rockets made the Finals this year. If I had never seen Hakeem play, I would assume he was some stiff who can't defend anyone in the paint on the strength of this video. Kareem just looks like he's beasting here.

[CavaliersFTW]

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/09/13/20130803-kareem-vs-rockets.nba/

Kareem dropping 46 on the Rockets. I forgot the Rockets made the Finals this year. If I had never seen Hakeem play, I would assume he was some stiff who can't defend anyone in the paint on the strength of this video. Kareem just looks like he's beasting here.
That's exactly Wilt Chamberlain's problem.

In all the footage of him scoring effortlessly - which is just what he did - nobody has had an opportunity to understand and see the footage of his competition. It's just straight to assuming they are trash. Numerous HOF and 50-greatest competition at that.

[feyki]

You realize Kareem played in 77 more playoff games?

With more teams in the league, when rounds were longer, and played with Magic.

Why use 30+, why not 35+?

Wilt scored 35 or more 23 times in 160 playoff games
Kareem scored 35 or more 26 times in 237 playoff games.

Pace . Wilt played on 20-25 more possesions a game .


In 147 Games , Kareem had 68 , 30+ playoff games .

[warriorfan]

op

seek help immediately

[Hammertime]

That's exactly Wilt Chamberlain's problem.

In all the footage of him scoring effortlessly - which is just what he did - nobody has had an opportunity to understand and see the footage of his competition. It's just straight to assuming they are trash. Numerous HOF and 50-greatest competition at that.

That's the problem with all highlight clips. You can put together a clip of any player looking like an All-Star. Hell, even footage from a single game can do that. https://youtu.be/wxRtO1bMdxs

Greg Ostertag playing like he's David Robinson. Check out the move at about 4:12. https://youtu.be/wxRtO1bMdxs?t=252

Of course, with Wilt, he'd damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If the video shows him dominating, it's garbage opponents. If the video shows him missing, being blocked or generally good defense on him, then Wilt is overrated.

[CavaliersFTW]

That's the problem with all highlight clips. You can put together a clip of any player looking like an All-Star. Hell, even footage from a single game can do that. https://youtu.be/wxRtO1bMdxs

Greg Ostertag playing like he's David Robinson. Check out the move at about 4:12. https://youtu.be/wxRtO1bMdxs?t=252

Of course, with Wilt, he'd damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If the video shows him dominating, it's garbage opponents. If the video shows him missing, being blocked or generally good defense on him, then Wilt is overrated.
Right, it's a shame.

That's why I try to show breakdowns and highlight videos of a wide variety of all players from his era. Single game, or career mixes if/when I have the time. In my opinion the entire history of the NBA should be appreciated, highlighted, and understood a lot more than it currently is.

[Hammertime]

Right, it's a shame.

That's why I try to show breakdowns and highlight videos of a wide variety of all players from his era. Single game, or career mixes if/when I have the time. In my opinion the entire history of the NBA should be appreciated, highlighted, and understood a lot more than it currently is.

Exactly. Which is why I very much appreciate these kinds of threads, especially ones you create. :rockon:

[jongib369]

What do you think his scoring average could of been had he kept that up? 40 like he said?

Crazy to see him score 60+ twice as late as 69

[Hammertime]

Also, not to hijack this thread, but I just realized Kareem dropped a 40 just four days before the game I posted about(on Ewing, whom he also held to 3-17 from the field), and also dropped 43 on Houston(again!) just over a month later. That February, at almost 39, Kareem averaged 27-7-4 on 59% from the field.

But you know, can't compare eras. Kareem played against scrubs. Both in 1970 and in 1986, I guess. :rolleyes:

[jongib369]

Also, not to hijack this thread, but I just realized Kareem dropped a 40 just four days before the game I posted about(on Ewing, whom he also held to 3-17 from the field), and also dropped 43 on Houston(again!) just over a month later. That February, at almost 39, Kareem averaged 27-7-4 on 59% from the field.

But you know, can't compare eras. Kareem played against scrubs. Both in 1970 and in 1986, I guess. :rolleyes:
The scary thing is, career wise I believe the only two people to hold Kareem below 50% shooting was Wilt, and Thurmond....Two players who learned a lot about the game in highschool during the 50s. Wilt I believe holding him between 47-48%, Thurmond around 43-45%. Don't remember exacts, but I'm sure cavs, or someone else will correct me with the exact numbers.

[La Frescobaldi]

He wouldn't better than Bill and Wilt for sure . Nate also would better than him . But Reed didn't play much in 60's and Deandre would better than Walt to me . He has clearly better rebounding and defending than Bellamy . You know How these important in 60's .

Beaty? That's funny , no :D .



No he wasn't . Deandre has rebound and defence over him .

Willis Reed played half the '60s man.
DJ defense is better yeah. Mostly learned from his coaches tbrh. But his defense doesn't make up for all that offense. Bellamy could really play great off the ball too, guys would just disappear behind his picks and screens. He had a way of getting open right in the paint that was kinda eerie in a way. Also it's not like Bellamy was a zero on defense, he was solid. whereas Deandre offense? huh.

Rebounding would be team dependent. He's not going to be getting as many rebounds as a guy would just assume. Not a lot of free rebounds for guys playing beside Willis Reed or Elgin Baylor, Happy Hairston or Dave DeBusschere. Jerry Lucas was a huge ball hound.

I have wondered what a lot of guys not just DJ would be like back in the old days.... for the most part centers haven't been very impressive for quite a while, the NBA has changed so much. Would Deandre Jordan beat out LeRoy Ellis or Mel Counts to get a starting spot on the Lakers?
not too sure :confusedshrug:

also I dunno where you get ideas that Jordan has an amazing vertical because he doesn't.

[dhsilv]

Wilt averaged 40 shots a game over his entire 1961-1962 season. Kareem never took 40 shots in any game in his career.

I'm not saying that Kareem could ever volume score the way Wilt did. He most probably couldn't... But Wilt's scoring is as much a tribute to his stamina as his skill and dominance.

you really can't knock wilt for his conditioning. He's one of the few guys I think could gas any player in history, and that he played in that era makes it all the more interesting. Just thinking about running in those shoes makes my feet hurt

[dhsilv]

This is the 4th best center of the 60's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYCnrkv_GL8

And he's a lot better than DJ.

Always thought of him as number 3, you going with thurman? Also why do people keep doing the blurry double vision thing on the sides of videos? Just use black bars, you're making it nearly impossible to watch the videos, assholes.

Anyway he's got a MUCH better offensive game overall, but DJ in an era where you were allowed to post up! Dude would be a LOT better. He didn't get to play back in those easy center days, he's playing in the no post era. Also his speed today might not be noticed as much but in that era he'd look freakishly fast. He'd have done much better in that era.

[dhsilv]

You realize Kareem played in 77 more playoff games?

With more teams in the league, when rounds were longer, and played with Magic.

Why use 30+, why not 35+?

Wilt scored 35 or more 23 times in 160 playoff games
Kareem scored 35 or more 26 times in 237 playoff games.

Smaller sample sizes create less meaningful data after a point. 30 is more than most people we consider stars can average over 80 games so it seems like a pretty good choice. Plus base 10 numbering...

[dhsilv]

Also, not to hijack this thread, but I just realized Kareem dropped a 40 just four days before the game I posted about(on Ewing, whom he also held to 3-17 from the field), and also dropped 43 on Houston(again!) just over a month later. That February, at almost 39, Kareem averaged 27-7-4 on 59% from the field.

But you know, can't compare eras. Kareem played against scrubs. Both in 1970 and in 1986, I guess. :rolleyes:


The scary thing is, career wise I believe the only two people to hold Kareem below 50% shooting was Wilt, and Thurmond....Two players who learned a lot about the game in highschool during the 50s. Wilt I believe holding him between 47-48%, Thurmond around 43-45%. Don't remember exacts, but I'm sure cavs, or someone else will correct me with the exact numbers.

A lot of the all time great players really did in ways get better as they aged. Add in a lot of these big games against stars are against stars who were still developing against experienced vets. I'm not saying the kareem doesn't work as a bridge to show that the early years weren't great, but it's not unthinkable to assume that vet players were able to out smart him early in his career and he was able to do the same. It doesn't mean that these guys peak vs peak were equals.

[dhsilv]

Willis Reed played half the '60s man.
DJ defense is better yeah. Mostly learned from his coaches tbrh. But his defense doesn't make up for all that offense. Bellamy could really play great off the ball too, guys would just disappear behind his picks and screens. He had a way of getting open right in the paint that was kinda eerie in a way. Also it's not like Bellamy was a zero on defense, he was solid. whereas Deandre offense? huh.

Rebounding would be team dependent. He's not going to be getting as many rebounds as a guy would just assume. Not a lot of free rebounds for guys playing beside Willis Reed or Elgin Baylor, Happy Hairston or Dave DeBusschere. Jerry Lucas was a huge ball hound.

I have wondered what a lot of guys not just DJ would be like back in the old days.... for the most part centers haven't been very impressive for quite a while, the NBA has changed so much. Would Deandre Jordan beat out LeRoy Ellis or Mel Counts to get a starting spot on the Lakers?
not too sure :confusedshrug:

also I dunno where you get ideas that Jordan has an amazing vertical because he doesn't.

Today's centers if they could get the ball in the post like they did in any other era would be night and day different. A lot of this is that back to the basket average centers just don't make it in a league where you can't post up so we have more "advanced" centers, but those who still can play in the post man they'd be night and day different 20 years ago. A guy like Al Jefferson would look like Hakeem 20 years ago on offense. A lot of it are rules. Some of it is a lack of development because again you just can't get it in the post so you don't build those skills like players of the past did.

Outside of that 96-03 range where the nba was just gastly down and living on the fumes of legends after foolishly expanding too fast for the talent pool, the modern centers a creature of the changes to the game as much as anything else.

[Elosha]

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/DeAndre-Jordan-1072/

30.5"

Right alongside Cousins' 27.5"

And both are no taller than Bill Russell.

Ok so you think DJ's 6'9" with a 30.5 inch vertical. Want to rethink that? Draft express couldn't possibly be more wrong.

http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/513dd2a569bedd3b18000002/blake-griffin-this-deandre-jordan-dunk-is-the-best-dunk-ive-ever-seen.jpg

http://clippers.topbuzz.com/albums/deandre-jordan/DeAndre_Jordan_right_handed_power_dunk_on_the_side _of_the_basket.jpg

http://www.hoopsfix.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/DeAndre-Jordan-Dunk.png

[La Frescobaldi]

Today's centers if they could get the ball in the post like they did in any other era would be night and day different. A lot of this is that back to the basket average centers just don't make it in a league where you can't post up so we have more "advanced" centers, but those who still can play in the post man they'd be night and day different 20 years ago. A guy like Al Jefferson would look like Hakeem 20 years ago on offense. A lot of it are rules. Some of it is a lack of development because again you just can't get it in the post so you don't build those skills like players of the past did.

Outside of that 96-03 range where the nba was just gastly down and living on the fumes of legends after foolishly expanding too fast for the talent pool, the modern centers a creature of the changes to the game as much as anything else.

i agree with just about all that. i only mentioned the league has changed but pretty much all this was on my mind lol.

al jefferson DOES look like Olajuwon, today, 20 years ago, or whenever. Only on offense though lol but then so do several others.
So? We were talking about Deandre Jordan which is something else entirely.
Deandre Jordan isn't going to look like Olajuwon in 1968 I can tell you that. He would have his hands full with Connie Dierking let alone Nate Thurmond, or Willis Reed with the fury on his brow.

[La Frescobaldi]

Ok so you think DJ's 6'9" with a 30.5 inch vertical. Want to rethink that? Draft express couldn't possibly be more wrong.

http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/513dd2a569bedd3b18000002/blake-griffin-this-deandre-jordan-dunk-is-the-best-dunk-ive-ever-seen.jpg

http://clippers.topbuzz.com/albums/deandre-jordan/DeAndre_Jordan_right_handed_power_dunk_on_the_side _of_the_basket.jpg

http://www.hoopsfix.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/DeAndre-Jordan-Dunk.png
running and leaping is not vertical leap.

although those look about 30 or 32 inch jumps anyhow

[jongib369]

I think there's something to be said about a resurgence of back to the basket centers, that also have the ability to have a faceup game.


Tommy Heinsohn on why big men aren't dominating the NBA
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibivYGoY6FQ)


For instance, take Shaqs kid for example. He might not end up as big, but while trying to mimic Durant/Davis, his father is now teaching him low post moves/footwork since Shareef admitted that was a weakness of his. For the sake of my argument, imagine if Shareef ends up the same size as his dad...Imagine how he'd benefit the Warriors with spacing? Plus, he'd be in perfect position to then kick it out for a 3 at any given moment.

I've seen a few instances Wilt didn't take advantage of situations because he didn't have a face up game like guys today, he opted to putting his back to the basket and passing it off or w.e...Considering the amount of time that separated Wilt, and Shaq... it's only a matter of time IMO before another diesel is born. Lets just hope he's taught right

[LAZERUSS]

Ok so you think DJ's 6'9" with a 30.5 inch vertical. Want to rethink that? Draft express couldn't possibly be more wrong.

http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/513dd2a569bedd3b18000002/blake-griffin-this-deandre-jordan-dunk-is-the-best-dunk-ive-ever-seen.jpg

http://clippers.topbuzz.com/albums/deandre-jordan/DeAndre_Jordan_right_handed_power_dunk_on_the_side _of_the_basket.jpg

http://www.hoopsfix.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/DeAndre-Jordan-Dunk.png

Very impressive.

Still, there are several eyewitness accounts of Chamberlain touching the top of the backboard, as well as an article from 1968 or so, in which he touched 12' 9" (and into his 30's.) In addition, there are articles claiming that Wilt was dunking on a full 12' rim (not the "12'" rim that Howard dunked on)...which also coincided with his college coach rolling out that 12' basket.

And we know that Russell was a WORLD-CLASS high-jumper, who claimed to have looked down at the rim.

I suspect that both had around 40" verticals. Wilt, with a standing reach of 9'-6", and dunking on a 12 ft rim (with a 10" round ball above the rim) would come in at 42". Oh, and George Kisida claims to have measured a Wilt leap, in a hospital no less, of 42".

CavsFTW has given us some grainy footage, in which Chamberlain's fingertips were within a couple of inches of the top of the backboard, as well...and with a standing leap. Give him a running start, and I would contend that touching the top of the backboard would have been possible.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt averaged 40 shots a game over his entire 1961-1962 season. Kareem never took 40 shots in any game in his career.

I'm not saying that Kareem could ever volume score the way Wilt did. He most probably couldn't... But Wilt's scoring is as much a tribute to his stamina as his skill and dominance.

I would say that a PEAK and motivated KAJ, was capable of 40 ppg. The problem was, after his '72 regular season, he just couldn't maintain the motivation. Sure, he would go out and hang games of 48 and 50 on Walton, or later on, 43 and 46 on Hakeem, but for whatever reasons...he just lacked that willpower.

I always thought that if Kareem were going to really go after some of Wilt's scoring records, that he would have done so on the '76 Lakers. Instead, he declined from his staggering numbers in both '71 and '72. The '76 Lakers had a poor supporting cast, while his was putting up huge numbers, in 44 mpg, on a '72 Bucks team that was crushing their opposition by near-record margins.

In terms of PEAK play, I have KAJ right behind Chamberlain. Then MJ.

[jongib369]

[QUOTE=Elosha]Ok so you think DJ's 6'9" with a 30.5 inch vertical. Want to rethink that? Draft express couldn't possibly be more wrong.

http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/513dd2a569bedd3b18000002/blake-griffin-this-deandre-jordan-dunk-is-the-best-dunk-ive-ever-seen.jpg



https://56.media.tumblr.com/82a1e9026561afe8e242182523e2d499/tumblr_o1acw2fyef1td15w4o1_400.jpg

Look like that dunk from a different angle :lol

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-XONtPQWkO1s/Vmqsq-yhM2I/AAAAAAAAHYk/vUQUqnUQn3Q/s1280-Ic42/Wilt%252520Deandre.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/oiYNWtq.jpg

Not to derail the thread, but I'd like to see more comparison photos of https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WyCG5jdVpww/UYMsNU3AJwI/AAAAAAAAEUQ/pfUbe2nwYv0/s800/Wilt%2520Shaq%25201.jpg, but specifically Shaq from the year 2002 when he was his heaviest

[Coach Eddie]

Wilt averaged 40 shots a game over his entire 1961-1962 season. Kareem never took 40 shots in any game in his career.

I'm not saying that Kareem could ever volume score the way Wilt did. He most probably couldn't... But Wilt's scoring is as much a tribute to his stamina as his skill and dominance.
This is a good point.

[jongib369]

This is a good point.
So is his other point, could he have scored at the same volume/efficiency if asked? Would of loved to see Kareem given the same role...Especially when he faced Imhoff himself, even though he was able to light him up also

Mixed Tape Videos recently made a video ranking Hakeem over Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq. And in the past, they've actually somewhat downplayed Wilts stamina. While we'll never know, I'm truly curious what they could do forced to play those kind of minutes while shooting at the volume Wilt did. Either in their day, or Wilts.


Regular Season Win Shares
Offensive Wilt: 153.3---Hakeem: 68.3
Defensive Wilt:93.9---Hakeem: 94.5
Total Wilt: 247.3---Hakeem: 162.8
Per 48 minutes Wilt: .248---Hakeem: .177

Playoff Win shares
Offensive Wilt: 15.7---Hakeem: 11.9
Defensive Wilt: 15.8---Hakeem: 10.7
Total Wilt: 31.5---Hakeem: 22.6
Per 48 minutes Wilt: .200---Hakeem: .189

Note for per 48 minutes Wilt was actually capable of playing that much, Hakeem is debatable. Though at age 31, Hakeem played an impressive 41.0 minutes per game during the regular season for 80 games, the most he ever played- Then 43MPG for 23 games during the playoofs that season. Topping off at 43.2 a year prior in the playoffs.

Wilt at the same age averaged 46.8 for 82 games during the regular season, 48.5 for 13 games in the playoffs. But peaking in minutes at age 25 during the regular season at 48.5 for 80 games, 48.0 for 12 games during the playoffs.

Hakeems stats during the season he was 31 Reg/playoff (Won a ring)
PPG 27.3/28.9 Shooting .528% /.519%- RPG 11.9/11.0--- AST 3.6/4.3

Wilts stats during the season he was 31 Reg/playoff (Didn't, likely would have if there weren't so many team injuries)
PPG 24.3/23.7 Shooting .595% /.534%- RPG 23.8/24.7--- AST 8.6/6.5

The year prior for Wilt, when he did win a Chip
PPG 24.1/21.7 Shooting .683% /.579%- RPG 24.2/29.1--- AST 7.8/9.0

You CAN adjust for pace with rebounds, but Wilt would still be ahead. You CAN'T adjust for scoring, as if the coach wants to give Wilt Wilt between 14-17 attempts, which is what he did during the above stats he could get them. Assists are tricky, yes there were more possessions back then, but the rules were different. Back then from my understanding, it would only be rewarded as an assist if the player took no steps. Versus today where you see multiple steps.

Might I add, Wilt faced _ X amount of times reg/playoffs--- Russell 146(?)--Bellamy 108---Reed 74---Nate 64---Kareem 28---Unseld 20---Lanier 16-- Total=456 Games

Hakeem faced _ X amount of times reg/playoffs: Shaq 20--Mutombo 27---Ewing 28---Kareem 23 Robinson 42---Mourning 15---Parish 22---Total=177 Games

They both arguably played in the golden era of centers, with a lot more that could be mentioned

[Helix]

Not only did Wilt take 40 shots per game, he played all 48 minutes, pulled down 26 rebounds and who knows how many shots he must have blocked. That's one helluva lot of running and jumping. I've said it before and I'll say it again.....no other player in the history of the NBA could have done what Wilt Chamberlain did in 1962. NONE!

[dhsilv]

i agree with just about all that. i only mentioned the league has changed but pretty much all this was on my mind lol.

al jefferson DOES look like Olajuwon, today, 20 years ago, or whenever. Only on offense though lol but then so do several others.
So? We were talking about Deandre Jordan which is something else entirely.
Deandre Jordan isn't going to look like Olajuwon in 1968 I can tell you that. He would have his hands full with Connie Dierking let alone Nate Thurmond, or Willis Reed with the fury on his brow.

He'd be a less coordinated but faster shaq (not actually faster but relative). I'm not sure how that translates mind you, but it's a hell of a lot better offensively than it is today. You can't tell me he's not using his body to create space and score buckets in that era. Sure wilt isn't a small guy and bill knows how to adapt but he'd be a disruption in that era.

[dhsilv]

Not only did Wilt take 40 shots per game, he played all 48 minutes, pulled down 26 rebounds and who knows how many shots he must have blocked. That's one helluva lot of running and jumping. I've said it before and I'll say it again.....no other player in the history of the NBA could have done what Wilt Chamberlain did in 1962. NONE!

wilt in other years coulda :)

That wasn't close to his best basketball...

[jongib369]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 22 times:

Wilt Chamberlain - 184 times:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sa_IcX2oKmk/Vp_Cfw0ly2I/AAAAAAAAHe8/_sHArF9KX-M/s0-Ic42/Chamberlain%25252045%252520point%252520games.jpg


10/23/1965

What the ****

21-25 attempts shooting 84%, 11-13 at the line, 21 rebounds, 15 blocks :biggums:

Anyway you could post his highest scoring games with the least amount of attempts? I know it's all there, but possibly make it 35+ points as well. People brig up how he wouldn't get as many attempts during his main scoring years, which is true. So seeing those stats clumped together would be interesting IMO. Another interesting stat to find, how many points Wilt scored when he had about 22 FGA in a game, what Jordan averaged throughout his career.

[dhsilv]

I would say that a PEAK and motivated KAJ, was capable of 40 ppg. The problem was, after his '72 regular season, he just couldn't maintain the motivation. Sure, he would go out and hang games of 48 and 50 on Walton, or later on, 43 and 46 on Hakeem, but for whatever reasons...he just lacked that willpower.

I always thought that if Kareem were going to really go after some of Wilt's scoring records, that he would have done so on the '76 Lakers. Instead, he declined from his staggering numbers in both '71 and '72. The '76 Lakers had a poor supporting cast, while his was putting up huge numbers, in 44 mpg, on a '72 Bucks team that was crushing their opposition by near-record margins.

In terms of PEAK play, I have KAJ right behind Chamberlain. Then MJ.

Historically speaking high scoring is a sign of a player who doesn't win. How many scoring champs won titles in the nba the year they were the scoring champ? Drop MJ who is a huge freak and honestly has ruined good basketball discussion and the list is VERY small.

[dhsilv]

Very impressive.

Still, there are several eyewitness accounts of Chamberlain touching the top of the backboard, as well as an article from 1968 or so, in which he touched 12' 9" (and into his 30's.) In addition, there are articles claiming that Wilt was dunking on a full 12' rim (not the "12'" rim that Howard dunked on)...which also coincided with his college coach rolling out that 12' basket.

And we know that Russell was a WORLD-CLASS high-jumper, who claimed to have looked down at the rim.

I suspect that both had around 40" verticals. Wilt, with a standing reach of 9'-6", and dunking on a 12 ft rim (with a 10" round ball above the rim) would come in at 42". Oh, and George Kisida claims to have measured a Wilt leap, in a hospital no less, of 42".

CavsFTW has given us some grainy footage, in which Chamberlain's fingertips were within a couple of inches of the top of the backboard, as well...and with a standing leap. Give him a running start, and I would contend that touching the top of the backboard would have been possible.

As you just said wilt is longer and longer...show me a photo of wilt OVER the rim?

For what it's worth, i'm hoping you can do it. I've just never seen it.

[Asukal]

I don't care if wilt can jump over the moon, he is a choking underachiever and that's the bottom line. :oldlol: :lol :roll:

[oarabbus]

Wilt or Kareem?

Peyton or Brady?

[feyki]

As you just said wilt is longer and longer...show me a photo of wilt OVER the rim?

For what it's worth, i'm hoping you can do it. I've just never seen it.

http://estaticos.marca.com/imagenes/2014/11/24/baloncesto/nba/noticias/1416806232_extras_noticia_foton_7_0.jpg

And this by 30 Years Old Wilt Chamberlain . Compare 60's media and tv broadcast to present .

[AirFederer]

As you just said wilt is longer and longer...show me a photo of wilt OVER the rim?

For what it's worth, i'm hoping you can do it. I've just never seen it.

What, have you never seen this conclusive piece of evidence??!?

http://s14.postimg.org/887bx3rw1/wilt_top_backboard.jpg

:cheers: :lol

[jongib369]

As you just said wilt is longer and longer...show me a photo of wilt OVER the rim?

For what it's worth, i'm hoping you can do it. I've just never seen it.
https://youtu.be/yDMCh5HrcG0

If he can get that high like that, why would he need to get his head at rim level?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUR3cXMUAAAGhuT.jpg

Can you show me Shaq just at Rim level?

[jongib369]

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/shaq-2.jpg

Nvm, obviously since Shaq has similar yet shorter measurments, and a slightly less vertical it was easy to find...Considering his era was more documented

Shaq could definitely get rim level. He almost certainly had at least a 35-36 inch maximum vertical, which is phenomenal for a player of 300-350. I posted three examples where he was rim level or almost rim level on a Shaq v. Wilt thread a couple months ago. Here's two of them.

https://youtu.be/nZ-ho8-Xnno?t=274

https://youtu.be/eVycsmQuoPA?t=67

You can find several more where he's quite close, like his dunk over Robinson in an all star game in 96, I believe and another facial dunk as a Laker.

https://youtu.be/P4Rb_scbotw?t=88

https://youtu.be/P4Rb_scbotw?t=127

And even though this thread is not about strength per se, I thought this next video of Shaq is incredible. To be doing crunches on a medicine ball while holding a full grown man over your head is insane upper body and core strength.

https://youtu.be/Jsx-0ndnrWA?t=177

Shaq's powerful trunk and lower body was one of the reason he could power dunk better/facial dunk better than probably anyone in NBA history.

[strike]

how does wilt only average 30 for his career!?
Honestly seeing stats like this it really feels like he should have finished above 35

[jongib369]

how does wilt only average 30 for his career!?
Honestly seeing stats like this it really feels like he should have finished above 35
Adjusting his output to what the coach wanted/team needed. He put up 60+ twice as late as 69...35 for his career seems like it could of been possible. Crazy to think, but he probably could of put total points scored far out of reach within the amount of years he played, even with Kareem, and others playing 20 seasons...

[LAZERUSS]

Historically speaking high scoring is a sign of a player who doesn't win. How many scoring champs won titles in the nba the year they were the scoring champ? Drop MJ who is a huge freak and honestly has ruined good basketball discussion and the list is VERY small.

Chamberlain came within a controversial goal tend of taking his Warriors to the Finals in '62, and against a Laker team that he had absolutely destroyed during the season (and in fact, the ENTIRE DECADE.) The same Laker team that Russell's Celtics edged in seven games (and in which Russell hung a 22-29 .538 series against.) This is a season in which Wilt had averaged 50 ppg.

And in '65, he came within a "Havlicek steals the ball!" of taking his Sixers to the Finals, and an almost certain title. Why? Because Boston routed the Baylor-less Lakers in five games in the Finals. And again...Russell hung an 18-25 .702 FG% (yes, .702 FG%) series against that Laker team.

So, not only would have Chamberlain likely led two teams to titles in scoring title seasons, he likely would have set some scoring and efficiency records that would still stand today.

[ClipperRevival]

Historically speaking high scoring is a sign of a player who doesn't win. How many scoring champs won titles in the nba the year they were the scoring champ? Drop MJ who is a huge freak and honestly has ruined good basketball discussion and the list is VERY small.

Besides MJ, who did it 6 times, only two have ever done it:

Shaq 2000
KAJ 1971

[ClipperRevival]

What, have you never seen this conclusive piece of evidence??!?

http://s14.postimg.org/887bx3rw1/wilt_top_backboard.jpg

:cheers: :lol

:roll: This one always gets me. Hilarious.

[feyki]

Besides MJ, who did it 6 times, only two have ever done it:

Shaq 2000
KAJ 1971

Plus 3 times Mikan .

[ClipperRevival]

Plus 3 times Mikan .

He actually only did it once if you count NBA (1950). He did it once with the BAA (whatever league that is LOL) in 1949. I mean you have to give him some credibility because he is a pioneer but that guy wouldn't even make the league today.

[ClipperRevival]

https://youtu.be/yDMCh5HrcG0

If he can get that high like that, why would he need to get his head at rim level?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUR3cXMUAAAGhuT.jpg

Can you show me Shaq just at Rim level?

:roll: What is it with Wilt and lights and special effects?

[jlip]

http://estaticos.marca.com/imagenes/2014/11/24/baloncesto/nba/noticias/1416806232_extras_noticia_foton_7_0.jpg

And this by 30 Years Old Wilt Chamberlain . Compare 60's media and tv broadcast to present .

I wonder what is going on in this picture. I don't see an actual basketball anywhere, and Wilt's fist is closed. It looks like a jump ball, but again I don't see a ball anywhere.

[feyki]

I wonder what is going on in this picture. I don't see an actual basketball anywhere, and Wilt's fist is closed. It looks like a jump ball, but again I don't see a ball anywhere.

Probably rebound battle .

[ClipperRevival]

Chamberlain came within a controversial goal tend of taking his Warriors to the Finals in '62, and against a Laker team that he had absolutely destroyed during the season (and in fact, the ENTIRE DECADE.) The same Laker team that Russell's Celtics edged in seven games (and in which Russell hung a 22-29 .538 series against.) This is a season in which Wilt had averaged 50 ppg.

And in '65, he came within a "Havlicek steals the ball!" of taking his Sixers to the Finals, and an almost certain title. Why? Because Boston routed the Baylor-less Lakers in five games in the Finals. And again...Russell hung an 18-25 .702 FG% (yes, .702 FG%) series against that Laker team.

So, not only would have Chamberlain likely led two teams to titles in scoring title seasons, he likely would have set some scoring and efficiency records that would still stand today.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. The story of "Ilt's" aka "The Big Dipper's" career.

If Isiah Thomas doesn't sprain his ankle and Pistons don't get hosed with that foul on Laimbeer in game 6, they are 3 peat champs.

If Allen misses that 3, Bron is 1/6 in the finals.

If Horry misses that 3 against the Kings in 2002, Kings are champs.

If Lakers don't come back down 15 late in the 4th in 2000, Blazers are champs.

If MJ doesn't make that jumper in 1998, Utah plays game 7 at home and probably wins.

You make your own destiny when you step on that court. Championships are decided by guys who make plays. If you end up on the short end, you should accept defeat and move on.

[TomBrady]

Wilt or Kareem?

Peyton or Brady?
:durantunimpressed:

Not even a question.

[LAZERUSS]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. The story of "Ilt's" aka "The Big Dipper's" career.

If Isiah Thomas doesn't sprain his ankle and Pistons don't get hosed with that foul on Laimbeer in game 6, they are 3 peat champs.

If Allen misses that 3, Bron is 1/6 in the finals.

If Horry misses that 3 against the Kings in 2002, Kings are champs.

If Lakers don't come back down 15 late in the 4th in 2000, Blazers are champs.

If MJ doesn't make that jumper in 1998, Utah plays game 7 at home and probably wins.

You make your own destiny when you step on that court. Championships are decided by guys who make plays. If you end up on the short end, you should accept defeat and move on.

TEAM Game.

MJ...LOST in NINE SEASONS.
Bird...LOST in 10 SEASONS
Kareem....LOST in 14 SEASONS.
Shaq...LOST in 15 SEASONS.
Hakeem...LOST in 16 SEASONS.

Clearly...all were LOSERS, right?

Furthermore, there is a HUGE difference in losing four game sevens by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points...and getting SWEPT SIX times...or losing in the FIRST ROUND (and almost all of them blowout losses)..EIGHT times.

Wilt was an eyelash away from 4-5 more rings...and in most all of them he was brilliant.

[jongib369]

:roll: What is it with Wilt and lights and special effects?
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/250x250/64506482.jpg

[feyki]

He actually only did it once if you count NBA (1950). He did it once with the BAA (whatever league that is LOL) in 1949. I mean you have to give him some credibility because he is a pioneer but that guy wouldn't even make the league today.

Twice in NBA . He played against 6-9+ centers without shoes in every rounds of his playoffs run . If you look at centers competition , my point is Mikan's era hardest playable basketball era of nba history . 80 offensive rating on 100 poss and more fouls per game than field goal made in Mikan's era .

[ClipperRevival]

Twice in NBA . He played against 6-9+ centers without shoes in every rounds of his playoffs run . If you look at centers competition , my point is Mikan's era hardest playable basketball era of nba history . 80 offensive rating on 100 poss and more fouls per game than field goal made in Mikan's era .

You do know I am talking about leading the league in regular season right? He did it twice in playoff scoring but I'm talking about regular season scoring.

[strike]

how does wilt only average 30 for his career!?
Honestly seeing stats like this it really feels like he should have finished above 35

Thats true.
Its crazy if you think of how many big scoring games he had he could actually have finished with close to 50,000 points if he gets it up through his career!

[ClipperRevival]

TEAM Game.

MJ...LOST in NINE SEASONS.
Bird...LOST in 10 SEASONS
Kareem....LOST in 14 SEASONS.
Shaq...LOST in 15 SEASONS.
Hakeem...LOST in 16 SEASONS.

Clearly...all were LOSERS, right?

Furthermore, there is a HUGE difference in losing four game sevens by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points...and getting SWEPT SIX times...or losing in the FIRST ROUND (and almost all of them blowout losses)..EIGHT times.

Wilt was an eyelash away from 4-5 more rings...and in most all of them he was brilliant.

Context.

No one expects a transcendent talent to win by himself. Everyone knows you need some help. But when you do have the proper help and you still can't get it done, you should be held accountable. And I know this sticks you right in the heart because that describes Ilt and this drives you insane. So you have to spend all your time bringing other legends down to Ilts level and bring up excuse after excuse. Would be nice if you were just a bit more objective and accept the fact that Ilt came up short several times and move on.

[julizaver]

No way. You might argue DeAndre wouldn't be the best or even dominant, but to argue he wouldn't even make the league in the 60's??? No way, and I don't care how small or competitive the league was. DJ's vertical is higher than almost any big player in history, yes including Wilt. He would block tons of shots in the faster paced 60's and get tons of rebounds.

Would he be better than Wilt, Russell, Bellamy, Reed, or other elite bigs? Almost certainly he would not be better than any of them given his poor offense. But he'd definitely make the league.

If he is better than Wilt, than he would be better ... than Kareem ? Is that what you mean, because the gap between Wilt and Kareem is not very big, doesn't matter who you got higher in the GOAT list.

So, are you saying also that Deandre is better than Kareem ? Or Hakeem ?:lol

[julizaver]

I wonder what is going on in this picture. I don't see an actual basketball anywhere, and Wilt's fist is closed. It looks like a jump ball, but again I don't see a ball anywhere.

It is a jump ball.

[Odinn]

In the playoffs;

30+ games; KAJ 75 / Wilt 26
40+ games; KAJ 9 / Wilt 5
45+ games; KAJ 2 / Wilt 4

When Wilt has the half of the record book "almighty, great Wilt", but when people bring up his short-comings in the playoffs "it's team game". Hyprocrisy at its best.

[aj1987]

In the playoffs;

30+ games; KAJ 75 / Wilt 26
40+ games; KAJ 9 / Wilt 5
45+ games; KAJ 2 / Wilt 4

When Wilt has the half of the record book "almighty, great Wilt", but when people bring up his short-comings in the playoffs "it's team game". Hyprocrisy at its best.
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[jongib369]

In the playoffs;

30+ games; KAJ 75 / Wilt 26
40+ games; KAJ 9 / Wilt 5
45+ games; KAJ 2 / Wilt 4

When Wilt has the half of the record book "almighty, great Wilt", but when people bring up his short-comings in the playoffs "it's team game". Hyprocrisy at its best.

http://kommein.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/For-Dummies.gif

His playoff games played with his 3 different team roles were disproportionate in frequency relative to his regular season career stats.

Wilt played 24 playoff games as the teams dedicated volume scorer

Season Age Tm Lg G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST
1959-60 23 PHW NBA 9 415 125 252 49 110 232 19 17 299 .496 .445 46.1 33.2 25.8 2.1
1960-61 24 PHW NBA 3 144 45 96 21 38 69 6 10 111 .469 .553 48.0 37.0 23.0 2.0
1961-62 25 PHW NBA 12 576 162 347 96 151 319 37 27 420 .467 .636 48.0 35.0 26.6 3.1

Combined NBA 24 1135 332 695 166 299 620 62 54 830 .478 .555 47.3 34.6 25.8 2.6




Wilt played 56 playoff games as a playmaker and balanced defensive/offensive anchor


Season Age Tm Lg G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST
1963-64 27 SFW NBA 12 558 175 322 66 139 302 39 27 416 .543 .475 46.5 34.7 25.2 3.3
1964-65 28 PHI NBA 11 536 123 232 76 136 299 48 29 322 .530 .559 48.7 29.3 27.2 4.4
1965-66 29 PHI NBA 5 240 56 110 28 68 151 15 10 140 .509 .412 48.0 28.0 30.2 3.0
1966-67 30 PHI NBA 15 718 132 228 62 160 437 135 37 326 .579 .388 47.9 21.7 29.1 9.0
1967-68 31 PHI NBA 13 631 124 232 60 158 321 85 29 308 .534 .380 48.5 23.7 24.7 6.5

Combined NBA 56 2683 610 1124 292 661 1510 322 132 1512 .543 .441 47.9 27.0 26.9 5.8



Wilt played 80 playoff games as defensive anchor and an opportunistic scorer


Season Age Tm Lg G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST
1968-69 32 LAL NBA 18 832 96 176 58 148 444 46 46 250 .545 .392 46.2 13.9 24.7 2.6
1969-70 33 LAL NBA 18 851 158 288 82 202 399 81 42 398 .549 .406 47.3 22.1 22.2 4.5
1970-71 34 LAL NBA 12 554 85 187 50 97 242 53 33 220 .455 .515 46.2 18.3 20.2 4.4
1971-72 35 LAL NBA 15 703 80 142 60 122 315 49 47 220 .563 .492 46.9 14.7 21.0 3.3
1972-73 36 LAL NBA 17 801 64 116 49 98 383 60 48 177 .552 .500 47.1 10.4 22.5 3.5

Combined NBA 80 3741 483 909 299 667 1783 289 216 1265 .531 .448 46.7 15.8 22.3 3.6


A whopping 50 percent of his career playoff games are played from the age of 32-36, as a defensive anchor.

Where as only 32 percent of his career regular season games are played from that same age with that same role.

Basically, career playoff and career regular season stats should not be compared directly w/o an understanding of differences like this. Season to season is a better gauge, or simply using the stats I calculated above and comparing them with his regular season stats from the seasons played with that same team-role.


http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/im_retarded_quantum_leap.gif

[dankok8]

It's not clear cut that Wilt is a better scorer than Kareem. Again what Wilt did in 1962 is a testament to his stamina more than anything. He averaged 40 shots a game and Kareem never put up 40 shots in any game.

When they took about the same number of shots, Kareem was usually quite a bit more efficient.

64-65 Wilt: 34.7 ppg on 51.0 %FG (28.5 attempts), 46.4 %FT (12.1 attempts) ==> 51.3 %TS

65-66 Wilt: 33.5 ppg on 54.0 %FG (25.2 attempts), 51.3 %FT (12.4 attempts) ==> 54.7 %TS

71-72 Kareem: 34.8 ppg on 57.4 %FG (24.9 attempts), 68.9 %FT (9.0 attempts) ==> 60.3 %TS



And while it's nowhere near enough sample size we do have a 19-game sample in 71-72 where Kareem took a lot of shots. Oscar was DNP in eighteen of those games and played sparingly in the remaining one.

Kareem put up 39.4 ppg on 59.2 %FG (27.0 attempts), 73.1 %FT (10.0 attempts) ==> 62.4 %TS

[feyki]

You do know I am talking about leading the league in regular season right? He did it twice in playoff scoring but I'm talking about regular season scoring.

www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_yearly.html

[jongib369]

It's not clear cut that Wilt is a better scorer than Kareem. Again what Wilt did in 1962 is a testament to his stamina more than anything. He averaged 40 shots a game and Kareem never put up 40 shots in any game.

When they took about the same number of shots, Kareem was usually quite a bit more efficient.

64-65 Wilt: 34.7 ppg on 51.0 %FG (28.5 attempts), 46.4 %FT (12.1 attempts) ==> 51.3 %TS

65-66 Wilt: 33.5 ppg on 54.0 %FG (25.2 attempts), 51.3 %FT (12.4 attempts) ==> 54.7 %TS

71-72 Kareem: 34.8 ppg on 57.4 %FG (24.9 attempts), 68.9 %FT (9.0 attempts) ==> 60.3 %TS



And while it's nowhere near enough sample size we do have a 19-game sample in 71-72 where Kareem took a lot of shots. Oscar was DNP in eighteen of those games and played sparingly in the remaining one.

Kareem put up 39.4 ppg on 59.2 %FG (27.0 attempts), 73.1 %FT (10.0 attempts) ==> 62.4 %TS
I'm really curious if Kareem could handle that volum/amount of minutes. I mean I'm sure he could, but at the same efficiency? We'll never know. Only way to get an idea would be looking at his highest minutes/attempts and the fg%, but that won't tell you everything

If someone wants to take Kareem offensively over Wilt, I won't fault them for it. Kareem is number two on my list, possibly 3rd. But overall, rebounding, passing, defending etc...I don't see how you take him over Wilt. With how good of shape he was In after he was done, who knows how long he could of been effective. Could you imagine if he didn't care about disappointing fans, and if he did come back in the 80s? Or never retired. T have a 50s player make it to then would of been cool to see, even in a smaller role. Physicaly, for a bit he'd still completely overwhelm anyone in the 80s. Would o been a hilarious to see him play in the legends game (https://youtu.be/Lsz3wLZfwSo)
:lol

[Odinn]

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/im_retarded_quantum_leap.gif
So I guess I'm a retard since I expect an elevation in the playoffs from an all-time great.
His ppg dropped by nearly 8 when he was at the "decidated volume scorer" phase of his career. What a great scorer.

Besides that was a direct take-on for jlauber and his sh.t. You can see me showing some respect to CavaliersFTW, La Frescobaldi, or you yourself.

Next time, bother enough to take a look at who you're responding to before using some offensive gifs. Or I won't be this nice.

Enjoy the forum.

[aj1987]

So I guess I'm a retard since I expect an elevation in the playoffs from an all-time great.
His ppg dropped by nearly 8 when he was at the "decidated volume scorer" phase of his career. What a great scorer.

Besides that was a direct take-on for jlauber and his sh.t. You can see me showing some respect to CavaliersFTW, La Frescobaldi, or you yourself.

Next time, bother enough to take a look at who you're responding to before using some offensive gifs. Or I won't be this nice.

Enjoy the forum.
Year - RS PPG - Playoffs PPG - RS FT% - Playoffs FT%
1960 - 37.6 - 33.2 - 46.1% - 44.5%
1961 - 38.4 - 37.0 - 50.9% - 55.3%
1962 - 50.4 - 35.0 - 61.3% - 63.6%
1963 - 44.8 - Missed Playoffs (:oldlol: ) Imagine if Kobe or LeBron missed while averaging 44.8.
1964 - 36.9 - 34.7 - 53.1% - 47.5%
1965 - 34.7 - 29.3 - 46.4% - 55.9%
1966 - 33.5 - 28.0 - 51.3% - 41.2%
1967 - 24.1 - 21.7 - 44.1% - 38.8%
1968 - 24.3 - 23.7 - 38.0% - 38.0%
1969 - 20.5 - 13.9 - 44.6% - 39.2%
1970 - 27.3 - 22.1 - 44.6% - 40.6%


Regular season to Finals comparison

1964: 36.9 -- 29.2 (-7.7)
1967: 24.7 -- 17.7 (-7.0)
1969: 20.5 -- 11.7 (-8.8)
1970: 27.3 -- 23.3 (-4.0)
1972: 14.8 -- 19.4 (+4.6)
1973: 13.2 -- 11.6 (-1.6)

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

[jongib369]

So I guess I'm a retard since I expect an elevation in the playoffs from an all-time great.
His ppg dropped by nearly 8 when he was at the "decidated volume scorer" phase of his career. What a great scorer.

Besides that was a direct take-on for jlauber and his sh.t. You can see me showing some respect to CavaliersFTW, La Frescobaldi, or you yourself.

Next time, bother enough to take a look at who you're responding to before using some offensive gifs. Or I won't be this nice.

Enjoy the forum.
Unless you're a mod which I've got my chapstick and knee pads ready for, I'll jokingly send w.e within reason. I do get frustrated sometimes at the ignorance, or perceived ignorance in this board...But in this instance it's Cavs ftw in which I quoted. Not that he's always right

Winning in the playoffs is a team game, that comes down to multiple factors beyond an individual. Your point on that came off as silly....But, if you are a respected poster on here, I'd love for you to elaborate. And I dont say that sarcastically

[LAZERUSS]

Year - RS PPG - Playoffs PPG - RS FT% - Playoffs FT%
1960 - 37.6 - 33.2 - 46.1% - 44.5%
1961 - 38.4 - 37.0 - 50.9% - 55.3%
1962 - 50.4 - 35.0 - 61.3% - 63.6%
1963 - 44.8 - Missed Playoffs (:oldlol: ) Imagine if Kobe or LeBron missed while averaging 44.8.
1964 - 36.9 - 34.7 - 53.1% - 47.5%
1965 - 34.7 - 29.3 - 46.4% - 55.9%
1966 - 33.5 - 28.0 - 51.3% - 41.2%
1967 - 24.1 - 21.7 - 44.1% - 38.8%
1968 - 24.3 - 23.7 - 38.0% - 38.0%
1969 - 20.5 - 13.9 - 44.6% - 39.2%
1970 - 27.3 - 22.1 - 44.6% - 40.6%


Regular season to Finals comparison

1964: 36.9 -- 29.2 (-7.7)
1967: 24.7 -- 17.7 (-7.0)
1969: 20.5 -- 11.7 (-8.8)
1970: 27.3 -- 23.3 (-4.0)
1972: 14.8 -- 19.4 (+4.6)
1973: 13.2 -- 11.6 (-1.6)

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

'60 Faced Syracuse in 1st round: Averaged 39 ppg
Boston and Russell in EDF's: Averaged 31 ppg
League Average DRtg: 91.1
Boston DRtg: 84.9 (1st)

'61 Faced Syracuse and averaged 37.0 ppg

'62 Faced Syracuse in First Round: Averaged 37.0 ppg
Boston and Russell in 2nd round: Averaged 34 ppg
League Average DRtg: 93.6
Boston DRtg: 85.1 (1st)

'64 Faced St Louis in First Round and averaged 39 ppg
Boston and Russell in Finals and averaged 29 ppg
League Average DRtg: 94.6
Boston DRtg: 83.8 (1st)

'65 Faced Cincinnati in First Round and averaged 28 ppg
Boston and Russell in EDF's: 30 ppg
League Average DRtg: 93.6
Boston DRtg: 84.2 (1st)

'66 Faced Boston in EDF's (First Round for Wilt) and averaged 28 ppg
League Averaged DRtg: 94.9
Boston: 88.3 (1st)

'67 Faced Cincinnati in First Round and averaged 28 ppg
Boston in EDF's and averaged 22 ppg
San Francisco and Thurmond in Finals : 18 ppg
League Average DRtg: 96.1
Boston DRtg: 91.0 (1st)
SF DRtg: 93.1 (3rd)

'68 Faced NY in First Round and averaged 26 ppg
Faced Boston in EDF's and averaged 22 ppg
League Average DRtg: 96.8
Boston: 92.4 (2nd )

'69 Faced SF and Thurmond in 1st Round and averaged 12 ppg
Faced Atlanta and Bellamy in WDF's and averaged 19 ppg
Faced Boston in Finals and averaged 12 ppg
League Average DRtg: 95.5
Boston: 89.1 (1st)

'70: Shredded knee and missed 70 games. came back for last three regular season games and averaged 12 ppg
First Round against Phoenix averaged 24 ppg
Faced Atlanta and Bellamy in WDF's and averaged 17 ppg
Faced NY and Reed in Finals and averaged 23 ppg
League DRtg: 99.0
NY DRtg: 92.4 (1st)

'71: faced Chicago in First Round and averaged 16 ppg
Faced Milwaukee and Kareem in WDF's and averaged 22 ppg
League DRtg: 97.2
Milwaukee: 93.1 (1st)

'72: faced Chicago in First Round and averaged 15 ppg
Faced Milwaukee in WCF's and averaged 11 ppg
Faced NY in Finals and averaged 19 ppg
League DRtg: 97.9
Milwaukee DRtg: 92.6 (1st)

'73: faced Chicago in first round and averaged 12 ppg
Faced SF and Thurmond in WDF's and averaged 7 ppg
Faced NY and Reed in Finals and averaged 12 ppg
League DRtg: 96.8
NY 92.5 (4th)

All-time great defensive teams in nearly every post-season.


Of course, you can ask Kareem about Thurmond, who reduced KAJ to a brick-layer in their three playoff H2H's.

Later on, I will post MJ's numbers against elite defenses like the Bad Boys from '88-90 and the Knicks in '92 and '93.

Or Shaq's numbers against the Robinson-led Spurs from '99 thru '03.

Or KAJ's numbers in his five playoff series H2Hs with Thurmond and Wilt...

Or Bird's numbers against the Lakers and Bad Boys...

Oh, and I will include Wilt's eFG%'s as well as MJ's, Shaq's, and KAJ's...AND the league-wide eFG%'s as well.

[aj1987]

'60 Faced Syracuse in 1st round: Averaged 39 ppg
Boston and Russell in EDF's: Averaged 31 ppg
League Average DRtg: 91.1
Boston DRtg: 84.9 (1st)

'61 Faced Syracuse and averaged 37.0 ppg

'62 Faced Syracuse in First Round: Averaged 37.0 ppg
Boston and Russell in 2nd round: Averaged 34 ppg
League Average DRtg: 93.6
Boston DRtg: 85.1 (1st)

'64 Faced St Louis in First Round and averaged 39 ppg
Boston and Russell in Finals and averaged 29 ppg
League Average DRtg: 94.6
Boston DRtg: 83.8 (1st)

'65 Faced Cincinnati in First Round and averaged 28 ppg
Boston and Russell in EDF's: 30 ppg
League Average DRtg: 93.6
Boston DRtg: 84.2 (1st)

'66 Faced Boston in EDF's (First Round for Wilt) and averaged 28 ppg
League Averaged DRtg: 94.9
Boston: 88.3 (1st)

'67 Faced Cincinnati in First Round and averaged 28 ppg
Boston in EDF's and averaged 22 ppg
San Francisco and Thurmond in Finals : 18 ppg
League Average DRtg: 96.1
Boston DRtg: 91.0 (1st)
SF DRtg: 93.1 (3rd)

'68 Faced NY in First Round and averaged 26 ppg
Faced Boston in EDF's and averaged 22 ppg
League Average DRtg: 96.8
Boston: 92.4 (2nd )

'69 Faced SF and Thurmond in 1st Round and averaged 12 ppg
Faced Atlanta and Bellamy in WDF's and averaged 19 ppg
Faced Boston in Finals and averaged 12 ppg
League Average DRtg: 95.5
Boston: 89.1 (1st)

'70: Shredded knee and missed 70 games. came back for last three regular season games and averaged 12 ppg
First Round against Phoenix averaged 24 ppg
Faced Atlanta and Bellamy in WDF's and averaged 17 ppg
Faced NY and Reed in Finals and averaged 23 ppg
League DRtg: 99.0
NY DRtg: 92.4 (1st)

'71: faced Chicago in First Round and averaged 16 ppg
Faced Milwaukee and Kareem in WDF's and averaged 22 ppg
League DRtg: 97.2
Milwaukee: 93.1 (1st)

'72: faced Chicago in First Round and averaged 15 ppg
Faced Milwaukee in WCF's and averaged 11 ppg
Faced NY in Finals and averaged 19 ppg
League DRtg: 97.9
Milwaukee DRtg: 92.6 (1st)

'73: faced Chicago in first round and averaged 12 ppg
Faced SF and Thurmond in WDF's and averaged 7 ppg
Faced NY and Reed in Finals and averaged 12 ppg
League DRtg: 96.8
NY 92.5 (4th)

All-time great defensive teams in nearly every post-season.


Of course, you can ask Kareem about Thurmond, who reduced KAJ to a brick-layer in their three playoff H2H's.

Later on, I will post MJ's numbers against elite defenses like the Bad Boys from '88-90 and the Knicks in '92 and '93.

Or Shaq's numbers against the Robinson-led Spurs from '99 thru '03.

Or KAJ's numbers in his five playoff series H2Hs with Thurmond and Wilt...

Or Bird's numbers against the Lakers and Bad Boys...

Oh, and I will include Wilt's eFG%'s as well as MJ's, Shaq's, and KAJ's...AND the league-wide eFG%'s as well.
God damn! Those excuses! Just wake and smell the truth, Loozerus. ilt is a choker. He's called 'The Big Dipper', FFS.


Year - RS PPG - Playoffs PPG - RS FT% - Playoffs FT%
1960 - 37.6 - 33.2 - 46.1% - 44.5%
1961 - 38.4 - 37.0 - 50.9% - 55.3%
1962 - 50.4 - 35.0 - 61.3% - 63.6%
1963 - 44.8 - Missed Playoffs (:oldlol: ) Imagine if Kobe or LeBron missed while averaging 44.8.
1964 - 36.9 - 34.7 - 53.1% - 47.5%
1965 - 34.7 - 29.3 - 46.4% - 55.9%
1966 - 33.5 - 28.0 - 51.3% - 41.2%
1967 - 24.1 - 21.7 - 44.1% - 38.8%
1968 - 24.3 - 23.7 - 38.0% - 38.0%
1969 - 20.5 - 13.9 - 44.6% - 39.2%
1970 - 27.3 - 22.1 - 44.6% - 40.6%


Regular season to Finals comparison

1964: 36.9 -- 29.2 (-7.7)
1967: 24.7 -- 17.7 (-7.0)
1969: 20.5 -- 11.7 (-8.8)
1970: 27.3 -- 23.3 (-4.0)
1972: 14.8 -- 19.4 (+4.6)
1973: 13.2 -- 11.6 (-1.6)

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Apparently the "goat" scorer and defender can't carry a team. Chokerlain stans... :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

Added Wilt's eFG%'s and league wide regular season eFG%'s...


'60 Faced Syracuse in 1st round: Averaged 39 ppg on a .490 eFG%
Boston and Russell in EDF's: Averaged 31 ppg on a .500 eFG%
League Average DRtg: 91.1
Boston DRtg: 84.9 (1st)
League wide eFG%... .410

'61 Faced Syracuse and averaged 37.0 ppg on a ..469
League-wide eFG%... .415

'62 Faced Syracuse in First Round: Averaged 37.0 ppg on a .460
Boston and Russell in 2nd round: Averaged 34 ppg on a .468
League Average DRtg: 93.6
Boston DRtg: 85.1 (1st)
League wide eFG% ... .426

'64 Faced St Louis in First Round and averaged 39 ppg on a .559
Boston and Russell in Finals and averaged 29 ppg on a .517
League Average DRtg: 94.6
Boston DRtg: 83.8 (1st)
League-wide eFG% ... 433

'65 Faced Cincinnati in First Round and averaged 28 ppg on .488
Boston and Russell in EDF's: 30 ppg on a .555
League Average DRtg: 93.6
Boston DRtg: 84.2 (1st)
League-wide eFG% .426

'66 Faced Boston in EDF's (First Round for Wilt) and averaged 28 ppg on a .509
League Averaged DRtg: 94.9
Boston: 88.3 (1st)
League-wide eFG%... .433

'67 Faced Cincinnati in First Round and averaged 28 ppg on a .617
Boston in EDF's and averaged 22 ppg on a .556
San Francisco and Thurmond in Finals : 18 ppg on a .560
League Average DRtg: 96.1
Boston DRtg: 91.0 (1st)
SF DRtg: 93.1 (3rd)
League-wide eFG%... .441

'68 Faced NY in First Round and averaged 26 ppg on a .584
Faced Boston in EDF's and averaged 22 ppg on a .487
League Average DRtg: 96.8
Boston: 92.4 (2nd )
League-wide eFG%... .446

'69 Faced SF and Thurmond in 1st Round and averaged 12 ppg on a .500
Faced Atlanta and Bellamy in WDF's and averaged 19 ppg on a .638
Faced Boston in Finals and averaged 12 ppg on a .500
League Average DRtg: 95.5
Boston: 89.1 (1st)
League-wide eFG%... .441

'70: Shredded knee and missed 70 games. came back for last three regular season games and averaged 12 ppg
First Round against Phoenix averaged 24 ppg on a .549
Faced Atlanta and Bellamy in WDF's and averaged 17 ppg on a .413
Faced NY and Reed in Finals and averaged 23 ppg on a .625
League DRtg: 99.0
NY DRtg: 92.4 (1st)
League-wide eFG%... .460

'71: faced Chicago in First Round and averaged 16 ppg on a .423
Faced Milwaukee and Kareem in WDF's and averaged 22 ppg on a .489
League DRtg: 97.2
Milwaukee: 93.1 (1st)
League-wide eFG%... .449

'72: faced Chicago in First Round and averaged 15 ppg on a .629
Faced Milwaukee in WCF's and averaged 11 ppg on a .452
Faced NY in Finals and averaged 19 ppg on a .600
League DRtg: 97.9
Milwaukee DRtg: 92.6 (1st)
League-wide eFG%... .455

'73: faced Chicago in first round and averaged 12 ppg on a .517
Faced SF and Thurmond in WDF's and averaged 7 ppg on a .611
Faced NY and Reed in Finals and averaged 12 ppg on a .525
League DRtg: 96.8
NY 92.5 (4th)
League-wide eFG%.. .456

All-time great defensive teams in nearly every post-season.


Of course, you can ask Kareem about Thurmond, who reduced KAJ to a brick-layer in their three playoff H2H's.

Later on, I will post MJ's numbers against elite defenses like the Bad Boys from '88-90 and the Knicks in '92 and '93.

Or Shaq's numbers against the Robinson-led Spurs from '99 thru '03.

Or KAJ's numbers in his five playoff series H2Hs with Thurmond and Wilt...

Or Bird's numbers against the Lakers and Bad Boys...

Oh, and I will include Wilt's eFG%'s as well as MJ's, Shaq's, and KAJ's...AND the league-wide eFG%'s as well.

[LAZERUSS]

You can see Wilt's "decline" in the numbers above. In his scoring prime, from '60 thru '69, he played in 98 playoff games, and 61 of them were against Russell (and an all-time great team defense), and 12 more against a prime Thurmond. So in 62% of his playoff games, in his prime, Chamberlain faced two of the greatest defensive centers in NBA history, as well as one of the all-time greatest defenses (in HALF of his playoff games in his prime.)

Ok, let's take a look at how MJ fared against the Bad Boys from '88 thru '90 (in '91 Detroit was a crumbling shell, and would be a first round loser in '92, and a losing team in '93.)

'88: MJ averaged 35.0 ppg on an eFG% of .537, in a league that shot an eFG% of .489.
Against the Pistons...27.4 ppg on an eFG% of .492. A HUGE decline across the board.

'89: MJ averaged 32.5 ppg on an eFG% of .546, in a league that shot .489.
Against the Bad Boys...29.7 ppg on a .476 eFG%. A sizeable decline, particularly in his eFG%.

'90: MJ averaged 33.6 ppg on an eFG% of .550, in a league that shot .489.
Against Detroit...32.1 ppg on an eFG% of .485. Look at that eFG% drop.

'92: MJ averaged 30.1 ppg on a .526 eFG% against the NBA, in a league that shot an eFG% of 487.
Against the Knicks in the playoffs...31.3 ppg on a .483 eFG%.

'93: MJ averaged 32.6 ppg on a .515 eFG%, in a league that shot .491.
Against the Knicks in the playoffs...32.2 ppg on a .432 eFG%.

Hell...let's throw in the '96 Sonics, with Gary Payton. Seattle finished 2nd in DRtg, and everyone knows that Payton was an elite defender.

'96: MJ averaged 29.6 ppg on a .525 eFG%, in a league that shot an eFG% of .499 (nearly 50%.)
In the '96 Finals... MJ averaged 27.3 ppg on a .439 eFG%.
BUT, it gets even worse for Jordan.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2014/08/21/how-putting-gary-payton-on-michael-jordan-sooner-could-have-changed-the-1996-nba-finals/


Chicago won the the first three games of the series and were on the brink of a sweep, before George Karl finally made a key adjustment, allowing Payton, ‘The Glove,’ to guard Jordan.

Not to pick at old scab, Seattle residents, but you have to wonder how Seattle would’ve fared had Payton defended Jordan the entire series. Just look at Jordan’s numbers:

First three games: 31 points, 46 fg%, 50 3fg%, 12.3 FTA.
Last three games: 23.7 points, 36.7 fg%, 11.1 3fg% 10 FTA.






How about Shaq against the Robinson-Spurs from '99 thru '03?

'99: 26.3 ppg on a .576 eFG%, in a league that shot an eFG% of .466
Against the Spurs in the playoffs...23.8 ppg on a .493 eFG%.

'01: 28.7 ppg on a .572 eFG%, in a league that shot .473.
Against the Spurs in the playoffs...27.0 ppg on a .541.

'02: 27.2 ppg on a .579 eFG% in a league that shot .477.
Against the Spurs...21.4 ppg on a .447 eFG%.

'03: 27.5 ppg on a .574 eFG%, in a league that shot .474.
Against the Spurs...25.3 ppg on a .559 eFG%.



Kareem vs Thurmond and Wilt in their '71, '72, and '73 post-season H2H's...

'71: Kareem averaged 31.7 ppg on a .577 eFG%, in a league that shot .449.
Against Nate in the playoffs... 27.8 ppg on a .486.
Against Wilt in the playoffs... 25.0 ppg on a .481.

'72: KAJ averaged 34.8 ppg on a .574, in a league that shot .455.
Against Nate in the playoffs... 22.8 ppg on a .405.
Against Wilt in the playoffs... 33.7 ppg on a .457.

'73: KAJ averaged 30.2 ppg on a .554 eFG%, in a league that shot .456.
Against Nate in the playoffs... 22.8 ppg on a .428.


Now, can you imagine if MJ, Shaq, and KAJ played 60% of their prime playoff games against that type of competition?


Of course, Chamberlain was also OUTREBOUNDING his peers, and by huge margins...as well as OUTSHOOTING them from the floor by massive margins, as well.

[La Frescobaldi]

He'd be a less coordinated but faster shaq (not actually faster but relative). I'm not sure how that translates mind you, but it's a hell of a lot better offensively than it is today. You can't tell me he's not using his body to create space and score buckets in that era. Sure wilt isn't a small guy and bill knows how to adapt but he'd be a disruption in that era.

no man, I can't see it at all. I guess i wasn't clear enough for you my friend.

I don't see Deandre getting a starting job in the NBA in the '60s at all, until the league expansion to 17 teams. And even then let's just see:
Eastern Division
Baltimore Bullets* Wes Unseld nope
Philadelphia 76ers* Darryl Imhoff nope
New York Knicks* Willis Reed nope
Boston Celtics Bill Russell nope
Cincinnati Royals Connie Dierking nope
Detroit Pistons Walt Bellamy nope
Milwaukee Bucks Wayne Embry maybe it was the HOF's last season (and it would really be just too bad for Deandre because the next season Lew Alcindor was the starter over there)

Western Division
Los Angeles Lakers* Wilt Chamberlain nope
Atlanta Hawks* Zelmo Beatty nope
San Francisco Warriors* Nate Thurmond nope
San Diego Rockets* Elvin Hayes nope
Chicago Bulls Tom Boerwinkel nope
Seattle SuperSonics Elvin Hayes
Phoenix Suns Jim Fox maybe

Two teams where he'd even get a shot at a starting position - in an expansion league. He might take Wayne Embry's spot, in his last season, but I doubt he could outplay the original tree trunk in practice. He would most certainly lose his spot the next year, when Alcindor went up to the League

Guys like LeRoy Ellis, who was basically a Deandre Jordan type of that time frame, were sitting on the bench.

Elvin Hayes would utterly destroy Deandre Jordan man it would be so bad. Big Z was a nasty player, really brutal. Tom Boerwinkel held just about every Bulls record there was until #23 showed up.

Deandre isn't faster than those guys, not bigger, not stronger, not smarter, not a better defender for the most part.... not anything-er.

The league has changed in so many ways over the years, but raw talent on the court isn't one of them.

[dhsilv]

http://estaticos.marca.com/imagenes/2014/11/24/baloncesto/nba/noticias/1416806232_extras_noticia_foton_7_0.jpg

And this by 30 Years Old Wilt Chamberlain . Compare 60's media and tv broadcast to present .

he isn't close to over the rim in that picture....easily 6 or more inches below.

[dhsilv]

https://youtu.be/yDMCh5HrcG0

If he can get that high like that, why would he need to get his head at rim level?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUR3cXMUAAAGhuT.jpg

Can you show me Shaq just at Rim level?

That isn't over the rim or even that close in terms of basketball. Ask someone else about shaq, where did that one come from?

[dhsilv]

Besides MJ, who did it 6 times, only two have ever done it:

Shaq 2000
KAJ 1971

Thanks, I've been wanting to track this down. I think this is the ultimately proof that nba fans value the wrong stats and jordan fans being the worst of the worst with it. The absurd importance placed on scoring is just incorrect. Scoring matters, but generally it's bad basketball.

[dhsilv]

TEAM Game.

MJ...LOST in NINE SEASONS.
Bird...LOST in 10 SEASONS
Kareem....LOST in 14 SEASONS.
Shaq...LOST in 15 SEASONS.
Hakeem...LOST in 16 SEASONS.

Clearly...all were LOSERS, right?

Furthermore, there is a HUGE difference in losing four game sevens by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points...and getting SWEPT SIX times...or losing in the FIRST ROUND (and almost all of them blowout losses)..EIGHT times.

Wilt was an eyelash away from 4-5 more rings...and in most all of them he was brilliant.

Comparing the first round between eras is tricky and should be avoided.

The reality is wilt's teams lost and they did so in a TINY league where someone had to play the the finals...

[dhsilv]

no man, I can't see it at all. I guess i wasn't clear enough for you my friend.

I don't see Deandre getting a starting job in the NBA in the '60s at all, until the league expansion to 17 teams. And even then let's just see:
Eastern Division
Baltimore Bullets* Wes Unseld nope
Philadelphia 76ers* Darryl Imhoff nope
New York Knicks* Willis Reed nope
Boston Celtics Bill Russell nope
Cincinnati Royals Connie Dierking nope
Detroit Pistons Walt Bellamy nope
Milwaukee Bucks Wayne Embry maybe it was the HOF's last season (and it would really be just too bad for Deandre because the next season Lew Alcindor was the starter over there)

Western Division
Los Angeles Lakers* Wilt Chamberlain nope
Atlanta Hawks* Zelmo Beatty nope
San Francisco Warriors* Nate Thurmond nope
San Diego Rockets* Elvin Hayes nope
Chicago Bulls Tom Boerwinkel nope
Seattle SuperSonics Elvin Hayes
Phoenix Suns Jim Fox maybe

Two teams where he'd even get a shot at a starting position - in an expansion league. He might take Wayne Embry's spot, in his last season, but I doubt he could outplay the original tree trunk in practice. He would most certainly lose his spot the next year, when Alcindor went up to the League

Guys like LeRoy Ellis, who was basically a Deandre Jordan type of that time frame, were sitting on the bench.

Elvin Hayes would utterly destroy Deandre Jordan man it would be so bad. Big Z was a nasty player, really brutal. Tom Boerwinkel held just about every Bulls record there was until #23 showed up.

Deandre isn't faster than those guys, not bigger, not stronger, not smarter, not a better defender for the most part.... not anything-er.

The league has changed in so many ways over the years, but raw talent on the court isn't one of them.

Sorry but just wrong. Jordan would be better than he is today back then. You can't tell me growing up with modern coaching, training, and his just general athletic advantages don't make him elite back before people even really were good at playing the game as a team.

Now could other's growing up today do better? Sure but that's not what's being asked. Jordan with his game today would excel in that era. EXCEL.

[La Frescobaldi]

Sorry but just wrong. Jordan would be better than he is today back then. You can't tell me growing up with modern coaching, training, and his just general athletic advantages don't make him elite back before people even really were good at playing the game as a team.

Now could other's growing up today do better? Sure but that's not what's being asked. Jordan with his game today would excel in that era. EXCEL.

sorry man we'll just have to disagree. There's not more than 1 or 2 guys in the League today that's flat better than Rick Barry or John Havlicek and that's the small forward position. ok maybe 3. Guards today, not the stars but the role players, yeah they are more skilled than guys in those days, they've had 40 years of film and coaching improvements. But centers? No their skillsets have actually declined in terms of offense, boxing out, sweeping outlet passes....

But raw physical ability, raw talent, hasn't changed at all. Like I said, Deandre is basically a LeRoy Ellis type player - a good solid role player, nothing special. Like I just showed, he just wouldn't have a starting spot in the NBA until the '90s when the league expanded to 30 teams. Here and there he might find a spot, a season here, a season there.

But to say he's something special that would somehow magically dominate 60s? 70s? 80s? That's getting close to delusional.

[dhsilv]

sorry man we'll just have to disagree. There's not more than 1 or 2 guys in the League today that's flat better than Rick Barry or John Havlicek and that's the small forward position. ok maybe 3. Guards today, not the stars but the role players, yeah they are more skilled than guys in those days, they've had 40 years of film and coaching improvements. But centers? No their skillsets have actually declined in terms of offense, boxing out, sweeping outlet passes....

But raw physical ability, raw talent, hasn't changed at all. Like I said, Deandre is basically a LeRoy Ellis type player - a good solid role player, nothing special. Like I just showed, he just wouldn't have a starting spot in the NBA until the '90s when the league expanded to 30 teams. Here and there he might find a spot, a season here, a season there.

But to say he's something special that would somehow magically dominate 60s? 70s? 80s? That's getting close to delusional.

Man even the steroids the players use today are better. You're just flat out wrong about the athletic advantages of today not to mention the knowledge of basketball. When you rank a player you look at them and default to all eras are equal, but to actually do a time warp...less than 20 players in that era would still make the league if we just warped all the players today back then. This is what happens with better coaching, nutrition, game film, building game play history....

And again today's bigs don't have the rules that made the post so favorable back then. with those rules, today's bigs would do much MUCH better.

[Elosha]

Originally Posted by Elosha
No way. You might argue DeAndre wouldn't be the best or even dominant, but to argue he wouldn't even make the league in the 60's??? No way, and I don't care how small or competitive the league was. DJ's vertical is higher than almost any big player in history, yes including Wilt. He would block tons of shots in the faster paced 60's and get tons of rebounds.

Would he be better than Wilt, Russell, Bellamy, Reed, or other elite bigs? Almost certainly he would not be better than any of them given his poor offense. But he'd definitely make the league in the 60's.


If he is better than Wilt, than he would be better ... than Kareem ? Is that what you mean, because the gap between Wilt and Kareem is not very big, doesn't matter who you got higher in the GOAT list.

So, are you saying also that Deandre is better than Kareem ? Or Hakeem ?:lol

Julizaver, I know you can read better than this. I clearly did not say DJ is better than Wilt, in fact I said he would not be as good as him or a bunch of others. See the bold above. Of course he wouldn't be better than KAJ either. All I said is that with his athleticism, he would most definitely have made the league in the 60's. I was responding to Lazurrus who claimed DJ would not have even made the league.

All I said in comparing Wilt and DJ is that the evidence that we have suggests DJ has a higher vertical than Wilt. He's 6'9" compared to Wilt's 7'1", yet routinely jumps far higher on his dunks and blocks than Wilt did. And the pictures posted of Wilt on this thread are almost all certainly exaggerations and distortions as to high Wilt was jumping. I"ll explain more in detail for each picture when I have the time.

But of course there's no way DJ is a better player than Wilt or many other great centers. He's not an all time great, not even close. Just shows how weak the center position is today.

[plowking]

I don't know if it has been mentioned, but Wilt only has 1 of those 45 point games since KAJ got his first? Isn't that telling in terms of how inflated the scoring numbers were earlier?

No doubt that Wilt was the better scorer, but I don't think it is far and away a blowout like the data suggests.

[La Frescobaldi]

Originally Posted by Elosha
No way. You might argue DeAndre wouldn't be the best or even dominant, but to argue he wouldn't even make the league in the 60's??? No way, and I don't care how small or competitive the league was. DJ's vertical is higher than almost any big player in history, yes including Wilt. He would block tons of shots in the faster paced 60's and get tons of rebounds.

Would he be better than Wilt, Russell, Bellamy, Reed, or other elite bigs? Almost certainly he would not be better than any of them given his poor offense. But he'd definitely make the league in the 60's.



Julizaver, I know you can read better than this. I clearly did not say DJ is better than Wilt, in fact I said he would not be as good as him or a bunch of others. See the bold above. Of course he wouldn't be better than KAJ either. All I said is that with his athleticism, he would most definitely have made the league in the 60's. I was responding to Lazurrus who claimed DJ would not have even made the league.

All I said in comparing Wilt and DJ is that the evidence that we have suggests DJ has a higher vertical than Wilt. He's 6'9" compared to Wilt's 7'1", yet routinely jumps far higher on his dunks and blocks than Wilt did. And the pictures posted of Wilt on this thread are almost all certainly exaggerations and distortions as to high Wilt was jumping. I"ll explain more in detail for each picture when I have the time.

But of course there's no way DJ is a better player than Wilt or many other great centers. He's not an all time great, not even close. Just shows how weak the center position is today.


i just got through going through a list of guys Jordan couldn't beat out for a starting position, bro. Go through the list yourself

i specifically said he could get a job, but it wouldn't be a starting spot.

[La Frescobaldi]

I don't know if it has been mentioned, but Wilt only has 1 of those 45 point games since KAJ got his first? Isn't that telling in terms of how inflated the scoring numbers were earlier?

No doubt that Wilt was the better scorer, but I don't think it is far and away a blowout like the data suggests.

no that has to do with Chamberlain blew out his knee in the '69 Finals which was the year before Alcindor went in the NBA. He lasted 10 or 12 games in the 70 season before it went bad altogether, and he came back as a defensive center after that.

[Elosha]

i just got through going through a list of guys Jordan couldn't beat out for a starting position, bro. Go through the list yourself

i specifically said he could get a job, but it wouldn't be a starting spot.

Well, all I said is he'd definitely make the league in the 60's. He may or may not be a starter on some of those teams, but plenty of them he would not, as you stated. Some of the centers you mentioned, I just do not know.

DJ would be a valuable player in the 60's. His incredible athleticism would translate in any era. He'd block lots of shots, get lots of boards. But his poor offense would also carry over into any era. He's just quite inept on the offensive end, and his horrible free throw percentage would rival or even be worse than Wilt's.

[La Frescobaldi]

Well, all I said is he'd definitely make the league in the 60's. He may or may not be a starter on some of those teams, but plenty of them he would not, as you stated. Some of the centers you mentioned, I just do not know.

DJ would be a valuable player in the 60's. His incredible athleticism would translate in any era. He'd block lots of shots, get lost of boards. But his poor offense would also carry over into any era. He's just quite inept on the offensive end, and his horrible free throw percentage would rival or even be worse than Wilt's.


:cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

Comparing the first round between eras is tricky and should be avoided.

The reality is wilt's teams lost and they did so in a TINY league where someone had to play the the finals...

Really???

You think that had Wilt's teams played in 30 team leagues that his competition in earlier rounds would have been tougher? The reality was...Wilt's post-season numbers suffered DRAMATICALLY without extended rounds. He was running into the GOAT defensive center, and the GOAT defensive TEAM, in either the first, or second round, seven times in the decade of the 60's (and an 8th time in a 3rd round.)

And I have mentioned it many times before, but Russell basically built his post-season stats against the Lakers in the decade of the 60's. Excluding the one Finals in which he faced a Wilt at center for LA, and in which he did virtually nothing offensively...he just TORCHED the Lakers in his FIVE other Finals.

Unfortunately for Wilt...he never had the opportunity to face the Lakers even ONCE. And he absolutely obliterated LA in the decade of the 60's.

But what if he had?


Ok, here we go:

'59-60:

Against the entire NBA that season: 37.6 ppg on a .461 FG%

Against the Lakers in 9 H2H's: 36.8 ppg on a .430 FG%

High games of 41, 41, 41, 45, and 52.


'60-61:

Against the entire NBA: 38.4 ppg on a .509 FG%

Against the Lakers in 10 H2H's: 40.1 ppg on a .506 FG%

High games were 41, 41, 43, 44, 46, and 56 points.


'61-62:

Against the entire NBA: 50.4 ppg on a .506 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2H games: 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%

High games of 48, 56, 57, 60, 60, and 78 (with 43 rebounds.)


'62-63: Against the entire NBA: 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 48.6 ppg on a .541 FG%

High games of 40, 40, 42, 53, 63, and 72 points.


'63-64: Against the entire NBA: 36.9 ppg on a .524 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 44.3 ppg on a .484 FG%

High games of 40, 41, 47, 49, 50, 55, and 59 points.


'64-65: Against the entire NBA: 34.7 ppg on a .510 FG%

Against LA in 8 H2Hs: 29.9 ppg on a .476 FG%

High games of 40, 40, and 41 points.


'65-66: Against the entire NBA: 33.5 ppg on a .540 FG%

Against LA in 10 H2Hs: 40.8 ppg on a .559 FG%

High games of 42, 49, 53, and 65 points.


'66-67: Against the entire NBA: 24.1 ppg on a .683 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2Hs: 26.4 ppg on a .759 FG%

High games of 32, 37, and 39 points.


'67-68: Against the entire NBA: 24.3 ppg on a .595 FG%

Against LA in 7 H2Hs: 28.1 ppg on a .638 FG%

High games of 31, 32, 35, and 53 points.


Overall, in those 86 games:

40 Point Games: 42

50 Point Games: 19

60 Point Games: 7

70 Point Games: 2

High game of 78 points.

[LAZERUSS]

Originally Posted by Elosha
No way. You might argue DeAndre wouldn't be the best or even dominant, but to argue he wouldn't even make the league in the 60's??? No way, and I don't care how small or competitive the league was. DJ's vertical is higher than almost any big player in history, yes including Wilt. He would block tons of shots in the faster paced 60's and get tons of rebounds.

Would he be better than Wilt, Russell, Bellamy, Reed, or other elite bigs? Almost certainly he would not be better than any of them given his poor offense. But he'd definitely make the league in the 60's.



Julizaver, I know you can read better than this. I clearly did not say DJ is better than Wilt, in fact I said he would not be as good as him or a bunch of others. See the bold above. Of course he wouldn't be better than KAJ either. All I said is that with his athleticism, he would most definitely have made the league in the 60's. I was responding to Lazurrus who claimed DJ would not have even made the league.

All I said in comparing Wilt and DJ is that the evidence that we have suggests DJ has a higher vertical than Wilt. He's 6'9" compared to Wilt's 7'1", yet routinely jumps far higher on his dunks and blocks than Wilt did. And the pictures posted of Wilt on this thread are almost all certainly exaggerations and distortions as to high Wilt was jumping. I"ll explain more in detail for each picture when I have the time.

But of course there's no way DJ is a better player than Wilt or many other great centers. He's not an all time great, not even close. Just shows how weak the center position is today.

We don't know what Wilt's vertical was. We do KNOW that he won college high-jump championships (and did so part-time, and with poor technique.)

And we have none other than Tex Winter claiming that he witnessed Wilt dunking his FTs, and with three steps. In fact, he was so astonished, that he had the NCAA ban the activity. It was the ONLY rule, out of the several, that ever limited Chamberlain. Had they continued to allow it, and his FT % would have went thru the roof.

And whether you choose to believe them, or not, there were eyewitness accounts of Wilt touching the backboard (respected Philly sports icon Sonny Allen, and longtime Sixer trainer, Al Domenico), as well as this...

http://www.si.com/vault/2013/10/14/106381076/the-freshman


At a youth clinic in Emporia, Kans., Monte Johnson saw Wilt take just one step and touch the top of a backboard that was 13 feet high. "My first thought," says Johnson, "was if that's those kids' new standard of what it takes to play basketball, they're all going to give up."

And this from that same article...


Allen was adamant that the basket should be raised because the average height of the players was increasing. The solution, he believed, was a 12-foot rim. Allen had prototypes constructed for practice and spent decades lobbying the NCAA rules committee to make the change. But in '55, when Allen was being honored by having his name on the new, $2.65 million fieldhouse at KU, the rims were still set at 10 feet.

Allen needed no ulterior motive to recruit 7-foot Wilton Chamberlain, the No. 1 schoolboy player in the class of 1955, out of Philadelphia. He was citius, altius, fortius, Stiltius—the fastest, tallest, strongest center the sport had ever seen. But Phog also wanted Wilt to serve as a giant middle finger pointing in the direction of the NCAA. In a never-published portion of a '57 interview with LIFE, Allen said of Chamberlain, "I wanted to get this boy and I wanted him to stuff that basket full of basketballs. I'd show the rules committee how ridiculous that 10-foot basket was."

The NCAA agreed that Wilt might make a mockery of the game, but its rule changes didn't involve the rim. Tales from Chamberlain's scrimmages with the freshman team led to the outlawing, for 1956--57, of redirecting teammates' shots into the hoop, which Wilt did frequently; of inbounding the ball on offense by lobbing it over the backboard, because Wilt was unstoppable on that play; and of jumping over the stripe as a free throw shooter, because Wilt could dunk that way.

Or this...

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/aug/22/sports/sp-dwyre22


Kiseda cites Chamberlain's incredible athleticism.

"I saw him palm a bowling ball," he says. "I also saw him go up for a jump ball against K.C. Jones and tip it in. I saw him standing in a hospital gown, in a room with a high ceiling, and jump at least 42 inches straight up and palm the ceiling."

Or this...taken from a news article in 1968, in which Wilt was already in his 30's...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11155672&postcount=38

BTW, Shaq's highest reach was 12' 5", and Dwight Howard, with a running start (and two tries), hit 12' 6".



We have videos of Wilt, going straight up, without benefit of a running start, and blocking a shot, in which his fingertips are within a couple of inches of the top of the back board.

We also have video footage of a 35 year old Wilt, at over 300 lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee, blocking TWO of KAJ's "unblockable" skyhooks. BTW, I saw almost every H2H between those two, and Wilt was REGULARLY blocking the skyhook.


Of course, Wilt would have had 4" on DJ, and a longer wingspan, so whether he had a higher vertical leap would have been moot. CLEARLY, Wilt was capable of reaching greater heights. That is not even debatable.

[LAZERUSS]

It's not clear cut that Wilt is a better scorer than Kareem. Again what Wilt did in 1962 is a testament to his stamina more than anything. He averaged 40 shots a game and Kareem never put up 40 shots in any game.

When they took about the same number of shots, Kareem was usually quite a bit more efficient.

64-65 Wilt: 34.7 ppg on 51.0 %FG (28.5 attempts), 46.4 %FT (12.1 attempts) ==> 51.3 %TS

65-66 Wilt: 33.5 ppg on 54.0 %FG (25.2 attempts), 51.3 %FT (12.4 attempts) ==> 54.7 %TS

71-72 Kareem: 34.8 ppg on 57.4 %FG (24.9 attempts), 68.9 %FT (9.0 attempts) ==> 60.3 %TS



And while it's nowhere near enough sample size we do have a 19-game sample in 71-72 where Kareem took a lot of shots. Oscar was DNP in eighteen of those games and played sparingly in the remaining one.

Kareem put up 39.4 ppg on 59.2 %FG (27.0 attempts), 73.1 %FT (10.0 attempts) ==> 62.4 %TS

A couple of points...

One, and you know it as well, was that Wilt's EFFECTIVE FT%, was higher than his ACTUAL FT%. Which was confirmed by Fpliii. Now, Fpliii believes that it raised Wilt's ACTUAL TS%'s about 1 percent. I would argue that it was probably closer to 2%.

So, if we use the average...that would have raised Chamberlain's TS%'s in this 65-66 season to around .560.

Then, Kareem's '72 NBA shot .455, while Wilt's '66 NBA shot .433.

So, as you can see, that narrows the gap considerably.

We could also compare KAJ's 79-80 season with Wilt's 66-67 season.

KAJ at 24.8 ppg on a .639 TS%
Wilt at 24.1 ppg on a .637 TS%.

Again, though, Wilt's EFFECTIVE TS% rate would have been around .650.

Then, KAJ's .604 eFG% came in a league that shot an eFG% of .486, while Chamberlain's .683 came in a league that shot .441.


On top of all of that, Chamberlain was overwhelming his peers on the glass, and was a considerably better defender, rim protector, and shot blocker.

[LAZERUSS]

I don't know if it has been mentioned, but Wilt only has 1 of those 45 point games since KAJ got his first? Isn't that telling in terms of how inflated the scoring numbers were earlier?

No doubt that Wilt was the better scorer, but I don't think it is far and away a blowout like the data suggests.


Just the season before Kareem arrived in the NBA, Chamberlain put up TWO 60+ point games. In fact, in a season in which he hardly shot the ball (thanks to an incompetent coach), he had a 17 game streak in which he averaged 31.1 ppg (which included a 35 point game on Russell.)

In KAJ's rookie season, and following the coaching debacle from '69, Wilt's new coach asked Wilt to become the focal point of the Laker offense.

In the first nine games of the season, Chamberlain was leading the league at 32.2 ppg (and on a .579 FG%...to go along with 20.6 rpg.) In the ninth game, Wilt had scored 33 points, on 13-14 shooting, and in only 28 minutes...and was clearly on his way to another 40+ point game, and perhaps even 50 (he had scored 66 points against that same team a year before...and on 29-35 shooting.) Unfortunately for Wilt, he suffered a horrific knee injury, and was never the same again.

Interesting to note, that that 32.2 ppg was not inflated by 1-2 big games, either. In those nine games, he had games of that 33 (and could have been as high as 50), 35, 37 (on 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle, who would give KAJ fits later on), 38 (on reigning MVP Wes Unseld), 42 (on Bob Rule...go ahead and look up his brief career), and 43 (on Connie Dierking.) And in their one H2H before that injury, Wilt outscored Kareem, 25-23; outrebounded him, 25-20; outassisted him, 5-2; outblocked 3-2 (including two skyhooks); and outshot him from the floor, 9-14 to 9-21.

The 43 point game against Dierking was interesting for a couple of reasons. Just the year before Wilt hung a 60 point game on him. And he had games of 63 and 59 against him in his prime.

Kareem would face Dierking multiple times in his career, and his high game against him was 41 points.


And the reality was, a prime Chamberlain was FAR more dominant against the SAME centers that a PEAK Kareem would face a few years later. Willis Reed, Darrall Imhoff, Dierking, Thurmond, and Bellamy. And Kareem was battling them at the tail end of their careers, too.

[dankok8]

I'm really curious if Kareem could handle that volum/amount of minutes. I mean I'm sure he could, but at the same efficiency? We'll never know. Only way to get an idea would be looking at his highest minutes/attempts and the fg%, but that won't tell you everything

If someone wants to take Kareem offensively over Wilt, I won't fault them for it. Kareem is number two on my list, possibly 3rd. But overall, rebounding, passing, defending etc...I don't see how you take him over Wilt. With how good of shape he was In after he was done, who knows how long he could of been effective. Could you imagine if he didn't care about disappointing fans, and if he did come back in the 80s? Or never retired. T have a 50s player make it to then would of been cool to see, even in a smaller role. Physicaly, for a bit he'd still completely overwhelm anyone in the 80s. Would o been a hilarious to see him play in the legends game (https://youtu.be/Lsz3wLZfwSo)
:lol

I have gotten a reputation as a bit of a Kareem fan although I don't see myself as such. I don't think there is a GOAT, just a few guys with a better case than anyone else.

Anyways I do think Wilt's edge in those other areas of the game are overblown... Wilt has the edge in areas other than scoring but it's a small edge.

Wilt met Kareem in 28 games and the rebounding battles went 14-14. Dead even. Kareem also rebounded better against other great rebounders like Thurmond, Hayes, Unseld, and Cowens from 1970-1973 than Wilt did. Now Wilt was out of his prime but he was also at his strongest and heaviest in his Laker days and could really use his massive edge in strength over Kareem, something he would not be able to do as much 10 years earlier as a young player. At the end Wilt is slightly better.

Defensively I would say a peak Wilt is better but overall across their entire careers it's pretty close. Kareem was very consistently great on defense throughout his prime. Wilt as more up and down in his effort. Better at his best but worse at his worst.

Passing is hard to gauge considering Wilt specifically focused on passing in 1967 and 1968. Kareem never really ever played like that. Based on watching them I don't think either guy had an edge in court vision or ball handling or any other aspect related to passing...

At the end how you decide to rank them overall as players will depends on what grades you assign to intangibles. Many people feel that Kareem was a much better winner, leader, clutch performer etc. than Kareem and I'm on of them. Others don't feel that way.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

no that has to do with Chamberlain blew out his knee in the '69 Finals which was the year before Alcindor went in the NBA. He lasted 10 or 12 games in the 70 season before it went bad altogether, and he came back as a defensive center after that.
Did he actually blow it out? I just read that it happened at the start of the 1969-1970 season and he was back before the end of the year (~4 month recovery). That's extremely atypical for a legitimate blow out (ACL+MCL+meniscus tear), an ACL tear usually takes longer than 4 months to rehab with modern medicine.

[La Frescobaldi]

Did he actually blow it out? I just read that it happened at the start of the 1969-1970 season and he was back before the end of the year (~4 month recovery). That's extremely atypical for a legitimate blow out (ACL+MCL+meniscus tear), an ACL tear usually takes longer than 4 months to rehab with modern medicine.

No, not an ACL.

He tore the patellar tendon. It used to be called jumper's knee and it was pretty common back in the day. Two versions like any tear, partial and complete tear. A complete tear will usually or often break off some of the kneecap which happened to #13. Not very common anymore, not at the pro level anyhow.... training has improved in so many ways.

When it's torn you cannot straighten your knee. If you know sports injuries, a lot of times the worst injuries are when there's no contact.

You can see the play where he injured it in a little youtube movie right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8Ckph1tMNU
Game 7 of '69 Finals

Anyhow after a summer off he came back and played 10 or 12 games and his knee blew clear out, had surgery and the whole bit.

He recovered by running in sand on the beach.

edit ~ here's a doc talking about that kind of injury http://www.drdavidgeier.com/patella-tendon-rupture/

"The athlete will know immediately that a serious injury has occurred. He or she will be in a tremendous amount of pain, and he or she will usually be unable to walk or even extend than knee......... Surgery is almost always required for this injury. The tendon does not typically heal on its own. It is an outpatient procedure in which an incision is made over the torn tendon to expose the tear. Stitches are placed in the tendon, and the stitches are passed through drill holes in the patella to anchor the tendon to the patella"

which they drilled holes in his knee, he talked about it that year on tv. pretty gruesome lol

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Thanks for the info. I was just curious. :cheers:

[dankok8]

A couple of points...

One, and you know it as well, was that Wilt's EFFECTIVE FT%, was higher than his ACTUAL FT%. Which was confirmed by Fpliii. Now, Fpliii believes that it raised Wilt's ACTUAL TS%'s about 1 percent. I would argue that it was probably closer to 2%.

So, if we use the average...that would have raised Chamberlain's TS%'s in this 65-66 season to around .560.

Then, Kareem's '72 NBA shot .455, while Wilt's '66 NBA shot .433.

So, as you can see, that narrows the gap considerably.

We could also compare KAJ's 79-80 season with Wilt's 66-67 season.

KAJ at 24.8 ppg on a .639 TS%
Wilt at 24.1 ppg on a .637 TS%.

Again, though, Wilt's EFFECTIVE TS% rate would have been around .650.

Then, KAJ's .604 eFG% came in a league that shot an eFG% of .486, while Chamberlain's .683 came in a league that shot .441.


On top of all of that, Chamberlain was overwhelming his peers on the glass, and was a considerably better defender, rim protector, and shot blocker.

Well effective FT% discussion had to do with the 3 to make 2 rule which essentially reduced the impact of missing free throws. Don't forget though that Kareem himself played with this rule as well which was abolished in 1979. It's a moot point because both Wilt and Kareem's efficiency would be corrected.

And even if we correct for the difference in league-wide FG%, Kareem still has a solid edge in overall efficiency.

I will give you that 1967 Wilt was remarkably efficient but generally when you compare them Kareem was the more efficient player even relative to his own era if you wanna go there (roughly a 2% gap).

[LAZERUSS]

Well effective FT% discussion had to do with the 3 to make 2 rule which essentially reduced the impact of missing free throws. Don't forget though that Kareem himself played with this rule as well which was abolished in 1979. It's a moot point because both Wilt and Kareem's efficiency would be corrected.

And even if we correct for the difference in league-wide FG%, Kareem still has a solid edge in overall efficiency.

I will give you that 1967 Wilt was remarkably efficient but generally when you compare them Kareem was the more efficient player even relative to his own era if you wanna go there (roughly a 2% gap).

It didn't really affect KAJ much at all. Why?

Because, one, Wilt was a much poorer FT shooter. And even more importantly, Chamberlain took far more FTs.

Incidently, to correct another point.

KAJ was nowhere near the rebounder Chamberlain was from '70 thru '73. Note even remotely close. Wilt ran away with rpg titles, and then in the post-season, he destroyed his peers. You mentioned KAJ outrebounding Thurmond, (whom Wilt routinely shelled), but in their '73 first round, while KAJ was outrebounding Nate, Clyde Lee on the Warriors was outrebounding Kareem. In the next round Wilt wiped the floor with BOTH of them.

And, in their 28 H2H's, Wilt outrebounded Kareem by about 2 rpg. Not a huge margin, to be sure, but then again...how many rpg was a 35-36 year old KAJ getting?

[jongib369]

It didn't really affect KAJ much at all. Why?

Because, one, Wilt was a much poorer FT shooter. And even more importantly, Chamberlain took far more FTs.

Incidently, to correct another point.

KAJ was nowhere near the rebounder Chamberlain was from '70 thru '73. Note even remotely close. Wilt ran away with rpg titles, and then in the post-season, he destroyed his peers. You mentioned KAJ outrebounding Thurmond, (whom Wilt routinely shelled), but in their '73 first round, while KAJ was outrebounding Nate, Clyde Lee on the Warriors was outrebounding Kareem. In the next round Wilt wiped the floor with BOTH of them.

And, in their 28 H2H's, Wilt outrebounded Kareem by about 2 rpg. Not a huge margin, to be sure, but then again...how many rpg was a 35-36 year old KAJ getting?
How do you think Wilts injury impacted his rebounding, if at all? I can't look up atm, but if you can point this out along with his minutes played it might be valuable to the discussion. I'll never want to take away anything from Kareem since he's so high on my list...And even though Wilt was a lot stronger, and heavier he himself admitted Kareem was strong. A young guy should be able to out hussle an old guy, but I suspect when chamberlain was in peak form their rebounding difference against eachother would be more prominent.

It's a damn shame he got injured, that first head2head, with Wilts new role could of gave us some interesting stats. ...Which was again? Against Kareem and some other numbers from that short 12 game season

[jongib369]

Kareems rebound drop was quite startling to say the least, what's the general thought as to why this happened? I'm sure it was his role, aging etc but I don't recall seeing other 4s and 5s drop off like that. What did other centers who started playing around Kareems early 70's years, average once they reached the 80s? Guys like Golmore, or whoever

[dankok8]

It didn't really affect KAJ much at all. Why?

Because, one, Wilt was a much poorer FT shooter. And even more importantly, Chamberlain took far more FTs.

Incidently, to correct another point.

KAJ was nowhere near the rebounder Chamberlain was from '70 thru '73. Note even remotely close. Wilt ran away with rpg titles, and then in the post-season, he destroyed his peers. You mentioned KAJ outrebounding Thurmond, (whom Wilt routinely shelled), but in their '73 first round, while KAJ was outrebounding Nate, Clyde Lee on the Warriors was outrebounding Kareem. In the next round Wilt wiped the floor with BOTH of them.

And, in their 28 H2H's, Wilt outrebounded Kareem by about 2 rpg. Not a huge margin, to be sure, but then again...how many rpg was a 35-36 year old KAJ getting?

Think of effective FT% this way... There is 8 outcomes:

miss-miss-miss (0/3)
miss-miss-make (1/3)
miss-make-miss (1/3)
make-miss-miss (1/3)
miss-make-make (2/3)
make-miss-make (2/3)
make-make (2/3)
make-make (2/3)

(notice you didn't get a third free throw is you made the first two)

With Wilt the calculation is very simple. It's basically a coin toss when he shoots free throws so each of the 8 outcomes is 50%^3 = 12.5% likely to happen.


Wilt shot 50%:

1 outcome = 12.5% of the time he makes 0/3 ==> effectively 0/2
3 outcomes = 37.5% of the time he makes 1/3 ==> effectively 1/2
4 outcomes = 50.0% of the time he makes 2/3 ==> effectively 2/2

12.5% * 0/2 + 37.5% * 1/2 + 50.0% * 2/2 = 68.8% effective FT%


With Kareem the calculation is more complicated because the 8 outcomes don't all have the same probability. It's not a simple coin toss because Kareem makes 70% of the time and misses 30% of the time.


Kareem shot 70%:

1 outcome = 2.7% of the time he makes 0/3 ==> effectively 0/2
3 outcomes = 18.9% of the time he makes 1/3 ==> effectively 1/2
4 outcomes = 78.4% of the time he makes 2/3 ==> effectively 2/2

2.7% * 0/2 + 18.9% * 1/2 + 78.4% * 2/2 = 87.9% effective FT%


It would have pretty great impact on Kareem as well. If he was an 88% free throw shooter his TS% would be quite a bit higher too.




You are wrong about rebounding. In their 28 H2H's, they went 14-14 against each other. And Kareem was better on the glass in his H2H's against Thurmond, Cowens, Unseld, and Hayes than Wilt was against those guys.

Wilt was a slightly better rebounder. He was out of his prime in the early 70's but he also had a massive strength advantage and played at 300+ lbs.


Kareem never went all out to pass the ball like Wilt in 1967 and 1968. I'm hesitant to give Wilt an edge just because he got more assists. For the record I think Walton is a greater passer than both.

[LAZERUSS]

How do you think Wilts injury impacted his rebounding, if at all? I can't look up atm, but if you can point this out along with his minutes played it might be valuable to the discussion. I'll never want to take away anything from Kareem since he's so high on my list...And even though Wilt was a lot stronger, and heavier he himself admitted Kareem was strong. A young guy should be able to out hussle an old guy, but I suspect when chamberlain was in peak form their rebounding difference against eachother would be more prominent.

It's a damn sha me he got injured, that first head2head, with Wilts new role could of gave us some interesting stats. ...Which was again?

He easily outplayed KAJ (admittedly rookie KAJ), in their first and only H2H meeting before Wilt's injury. Of course, this was not a mid-60's Wilt, with explosive speed and quickness, and range of up to 15 ft, either.

But what was interesting, was that rookie KAJ would go on to average 28.8 ppg, 14.5 rpg, and shoot .518. At his peak, KAJ was 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, and on a .574 FG%.

In Wilt's first nine games of that '69-70 season, he was averaging 32.2 ppg, 20.6 rpg, and on a .579 FG%. Furthermore, he shredded his knee in that ninth game, ...a game in which he played 28 minutes, and scored 33 points on 13-14 from the field. He was most certainly on his way to a 40 point game, and likely even a 50 point game (he had scored 66 against that same team just the year before BTW.) Think about that. Had he scored 50 points in that game...he would have been at 34.0 ppg in those nine games.

Now, I know that nine games is a small sample, but given the fact that his coach asked him to become the focal point of the offense...and, the fact that he put up games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points...as well as that 25 point game on Kareem (Alcindor)...well, you see the pattern.


As a side-note, after Wilt's injury, his offense was never the same. And yet, he played in 62 of his 160 playoff games following that injury. If we discount those playoff games, he was at 26 ppg in his first ten seasons. If we discount the fact that his incompetent coach reduced him to a bystander on offense in the '69 post-season...he was at 29-27-5 .520 player in his prime post-season career. All while dramatically reducing his opposing centers efficiencies, and crushing them on the glass.

[LAZERUSS]

Think of effective FT% this way... There is 8 outcomes:

miss-miss-miss (0/3)
miss-miss-make (1/3)
miss-make-miss (1/3)
make-miss-miss (1/3)
miss-make-make (2/3)
make-miss-make (2/3)
make-make (2/3)
make-make (2/3)

(notice you didn't get a third free throw is you made the first two)

With Wilt the calculation is very simple. It's basically a coin toss when he shoots free throws so each of the 8 outcomes is 50%^3 = 12.5% likely to happen.


Wilt shot 50%:

1 outcome = 12.5% of the time he makes 0/3 ==> effectively 0/2
3 outcomes = 37.5% of the time he makes 1/3 ==> effectively 1/2
4 outcomes = 50.0% of the time he makes 2/3 ==> effectively 2/2

12.5% * 0/2 + 37.5% * 1/2 + 50.0% * 2/2 = 68.8% effective FT%


With Kareem the calculation is more complicated because the 8 outcomes don't all have the same probability. It's not a simple coin toss because Kareem makes 70% of the time and misses 30% of the time.


Kareem shot 70%:

1 outcome = 2.7% of the time he makes 0/3 ==> effectively 0/2
3 outcomes = 18.9% of the time he makes 1/3 ==> effectively 1/2
4 outcomes = 78.4% of the time he makes 2/3 ==> effectively 2/2

2.7% * 0/2 + 18.9% * 1/2 + 78.4% * 2/2 = 87.9% effective FT%


It would have pretty great impact on Kareem as well. If he was an 88% free throw shooter his TS% would be quite a bit higher too.




You are wrong about rebounding. In their 28 H2H's, they went 14-14 against each other. And Kareem was better on the glass in his H2H's against Thurmond, Cowens, Unseld, and Hayes than Wilt was against those guys.

Wilt was a slightly better rebounder. He was out of his prime in the early 70's but he also had a massive strength advantage and played at 300+ lbs.


Kareem never went all out to pass the ball like Wilt in 1967 and 1968. I'm hesitant to give Wilt an edge just because he got more assists. For the record I think Walton is a greater passer than both.

Your calculations are way off. First of all, Wilt (and Kareem in the 70's) played in an era of 1 FTA, 2-to-make-1, 2-to-make-2, and 3-to-make-2. Extra FTs were not awarded until 5 team fouls.

There were times when Chamberlain was only getting ONE FT. Also, it is almost a 100% probability that Wilt had FAR more "and-1's" than Kareem did. This is reflected in his much higher FTAs in his career. Hell, in Wilt's 66 season, he made as many FTs as KAJ did in his '72 season. And that '72 season was an aberration for Kareem. He would never come close to that again. And we know that Wilt had seasons of MAKING 8-10 FTs per game.

Fpliii's research credited Wilt with somewhere around a 1% TS% benefit, and perhaps up to 2%. Not a dramatic rise, but clearly it makes Wilt's career TS% considerably higher, especially with his supposed post-season decline.

As for rebounding. Nope, KAJ was well behind Wilt all four seasons in the league together. And Wilt was crushing guys like Thurmond in his post-seasons, (as well as outrebounding KAJ by TWO per game.) And a peak Wilt could score 30-40 ppg, and still pull down 25+ rpg...all while crushing his peers offensively and defensively.

Hell, in his LAST post-season, Chamberlain averaged 22.5 rpg in his 17 games...in a post-season that averaged 50.6 rpg per team. KAJ's PEAK post-season was 18.2 rpg, (and in that same post-season, Wilt averaged 21.0 rpg (and outrebounded KAJ H2H.)

[LAZERUSS]

I have gotten a reputation as a bit of a Kareem fan although I don't see myself as such. I don't think there is a GOAT, just a few guys with a better case than anyone else.

Anyways I do think Wilt's edge in those other areas of the game are overblown... Wilt has the edge in areas other than scoring but it's a small edge.

Wilt met Kareem in 28 games and the rebounding battles went 14-14. Dead even. Kareem also rebounded better against other great rebounders like Thurmond, Hayes, Unseld, and Cowens from 1970-1973 than Wilt did. Now Wilt was out of his prime but he was also at his strongest and heaviest in his Laker days and could really use his massive edge in strength over Kareem, something he would not be able to do as much 10 years earlier as a young player. At the end Wilt is slightly better.

Defensively I would say a peak Wilt is better but overall across their entire careers it's pretty close. Kareem was very consistently great on defense throughout his prime. Wilt as more up and down in his effort. Better at his best but worse at his worst.

Passing is hard to gauge considering Wilt specifically focused on passing in 1967 and 1968. Kareem never really ever played like that. Based on watching them I don't think either guy had an edge in court vision or ball handling or any other aspect related to passing...

At the end how you decide to rank them overall as players will depends on what grades you assign to intangibles. Many people feel that Kareem was a much better winner, leader, clutch performer etc. than Kareem and I'm on of them. Others don't feel that way.

Wilt, in his LAST TWO seasons, and in a league with a PEAK Kareem...was voted First Team All-Defense (and had DPOY existed, most likely '72...and in reality, he was even better in '73.)

Wilt was DOMINANT defensively his very first game in the NBA. I don't know where this claim that he became better in the middle of his career came from. For example, in his rookie season, he reduced Russell, who had a shot a career high .467 against the NBA, to a .393 shooter in their 11 H2H's.

How about his first game against Walt Bellamy? Bellamy came into that game averaging 30 ppg. Wilt told him at the opening tip that he wouldn't score a point. And in the first half, we have DOCUMENTATION that Wilt blocked his first NINE shots. He finally "let" Bellamy play in the second half, and outscored him by a 51-14 margin. He would hold Bellamy to WAY below his normal FG% the rest of their career.

Same with Thurmond, Lanier, and even KAJ.

And with the research that thaRegul8r did, he had Wilt with 5.42 bpg in his LAST season (which is only 12 years removed from Eaton's record of 5.56...all achieved by a 36 year old Wilt.) KAJ never approached that figure (and in fact, the very next season he was at 3.5 bpg.)

And a prime Wilt, cica '65-68, just slaughtered his peers on the defensive end. I am always amazed that Wilt has the two highest non-Russell DWS seasons, but neither one were in '67, when he just absolutely shut everyone down. Murdered them. GOAT defensive one-on-one season in NBA history.

Wilt was, BY FAR, the greatest shot-blocker in NBA history,...and that includes just routing Russell in their known H2H's.

[dankok8]

Your calculations are way off. First of all, Wilt (and Kareem in the 70's) played in an era of 1 FTA, 2-to-make-1, 2-to-make-2, and 3-to-make-2. Extra FTs were not awarded until 5 team fouls.

There were times when Chamberlain was only getting ONE FT. Also, it is almost a 100% probability that Wilt had FAR more "and-1's" than Kareem did. This is reflected in his much higher FTAs in his career. Hell, in Wilt's 66 season, he made as many FTs as KAJ did in his '72 season. And that '72 season was an aberration for Kareem. He would never come close to that again. And we know that Wilt had seasons of MAKING 8-10 FTs per game.

Fpliii's research credited Wilt with somewhere around a 1% TS% benefit, and perhaps up to 2%. Not a dramatic rise, but clearly it makes Wilt's career TS% considerably higher, especially with his supposed post-season decline.

As for rebounding. Nope, KAJ was well behind Wilt all four seasons in the league together. And Wilt was crushing guys like Thurmond in his post-seasons, (as well as outrebounding KAJ by TWO per game.) And a peak Wilt could score 30-40 ppg, and still pull down 25+ rpg...all while crushing his peers offensively and defensively.

Hell, in his LAST post-season, Chamberlain averaged 22.5 rpg in his 17 games...in a post-season that averaged 50.6 rpg per team. KAJ's PEAK post-season was 18.2 rpg, (and in that same post-season, Wilt averaged 21.0 rpg (and outrebounded KAJ H2H.)

I'm well aware that bonus free throws weren't always given. Basically they were there to discourage intentional and/or excessive fouling and did a pretty good job of it. To be honest I don't know why you brought it up. 1% in TS is peanuts and Kareem benefited a bit from this rule as well.

I did the calculation to give us an idea of how a 3 for 2 calculation changes things. The math is correct. Let's drop it now.

As for rebounding I conceded that Wilt was a better rebounder. It's just that almost 1.8 more rebounds per game (and at higher minutes) don't constitute a major edge in rebounding. And Kareem was rebounding better against the other great rebounders like Thurmond, Cowens, Unseld, and Hayes from 1969-1973...

[La Frescobaldi]

Thanks for the info. I was just curious. :cheers:
no problem my friend..... in those days hoops was a pretty small community in a way. Chamberlain going down, that was like Tom Brady here a few years back, just huge enormous news. And for it to happen in the Finals like that too. Russell's last game. Sam Jones too. The whole basketball world mourned.

Little did anybody know he was going to come back and re-invent himself under Bill Sharman as a Russell style defensive center par excellence !!

[LAZERUSS]

It's not clear cut that Wilt is a better scorer than Kareem. Again what Wilt did in 1962 is a testament to his stamina more than anything. He averaged 40 shots a game and Kareem never put up 40 shots in any game.

When they took about the same number of shots, Kareem was usually quite a bit more efficient.

64-65 Wilt: 34.7 ppg on 51.0 %FG (28.5 attempts), 46.4 %FT (12.1 attempts) ==> 51.3 %TS

65-66 Wilt: 33.5 ppg on 54.0 %FG (25.2 attempts), 51.3 %FT (12.4 attempts) ==> 54.7 %TS

71-72 Kareem: 34.8 ppg on 57.4 %FG (24.9 attempts), 68.9 %FT (9.0 attempts) ==> 60.3 %TS



And while it's nowhere near enough sample size we do have a 19-game sample in 71-72 where Kareem took a lot of shots. Oscar was DNP in eighteen of those games and played sparingly in the remaining one.

Kareem put up 39.4 ppg on 59.2 %FG (27.0 attempts), 73.1 %FT (10.0 attempts) ==> 62.4 %TS

Impressive to be sure.

How about a 19 game streak in Wilt's '62 season of...

53.5 ppg on a .546 FG% (395-724) and a .647 FT% (231-357), with a TS% of .560...to go along with 27.3 rpg, and in a league that shot an eFG% of .426 overall (KAJ's '72 shot .455.)

BTW, how about this five game streak in that same season... 70.2 ppg, on an eFG% of .580 (134-281), and a .776 FT% (83-107), for a TS% of .620, to go along with 26.4 rpg, and in a league that shot an eFG% of .426.

And in his '66 season, Wilt hung a 19 game streak of 35.2 ppg, on a .610 (278-456) FG% and a .489 FT% (108-221) , and a .590 TS%, to go along with 22.9 rpg. In a league that shot an eFG% of .433.

Then, in his '67 season, a run of 19 games in which he averaged 27.2 ppg, on a .744 eFG% (203-273), and a .469 FT% (112-239) for a TS% of .665, as well as a 23.3 rpg, and a 7.4 apg...in a league that shot an eFG% of .441.

And, another run of 20 straight games in his '67 season of 27.3 ppg, on a .727 eFG% (229-315), and a .432 FT% (88-209) for a TS% of .615, as well as 24.7 rpg, and 8.6 apg, again in a league that shot an eFG% of .441.

And a run of 15 straight games in his '68 season, in which he averaged 34.8 ppg, on a .625 eFG% (218-349), and a (horrific) .410 FT% (86-210), for a TS% of .580, to go along with 25.2 rpg, and 6.1 apg, in a league that shot .446.

And finally, one of my favorites...a 17 game streak in his '69 season, which immediately followed an article by SI which claimed that Wilt could no longer score (BTW, his first game of that string was a 60 point game), in which he averaged 30.8 ppg, on an eFG% of .580, and a FT% of .509, for a TS% of .565, to go along with 22.8 rpg, and in a league that shot an eFG% of .441.

I'm sure I could find some more impressive Wilt runs, but unfortunately, there is some FGA data missing in some of them.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt averaged 40 shots a game over his entire 1961-1962 season. Kareem never took 40 shots in any game in his career.

I'm not saying that Kareem could ever volume score the way Wilt did. He most probably couldn't... But Wilt's scoring is as much a tribute to his stamina as his skill and dominance.
I did look into this dankok8, In games where a criteria of 25-39 field goals were attempted:

Wilt Chamberlain averaged in 334 games sample (31.4 FGA avg)
39.9ppg (52FG%, 53FT%)
25.5rpg, 3.2apg

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar averaged in 304 games sample (28.2 FGA avg)
34.3ppg (52FG%, 70FT%)
15.9rpg, 4.2apg

We can further handicap Wilt by giving him a ceiling of 25-32 field goal attempts to bring their cumulative average to a roughly equal FGA avg.

So in that scenario Wilt Chamberlain in 196 games sample (28.4 FGA avg)
36.4ppg (52FG%, 52FT%)
25.1rpg, 3.4apg

What this indicates is that Wilt did not have literally any drop off in field goal accuracy even if you remove several field goal attempts from his average. Further, the fact that despite Wilt and Kareem shooting the same accuracy from the field when their average FG's are matched in high volume (28.x yet Wilt averages 2 more points a game) means Wilt is getting fouled more and despite being a poorer free throw shooter is a greater threat to get the other team in foul trouble and still ultimately bring his team more points than Jabbar. When Wilt is totally green lit to score and force fed the ball (25FGA - no limit) his numbers are absolutely insane and look like this:

Wilt Chamberlain in 439 games (34.7 FGA avg)
43.4ppg (51FG%, 54FT%)
25.7rpg, 3.1apg

[dankok8]

Wilt, in his LAST TWO seasons, and in a league with a PEAK Kareem...was voted First Team All-Defense (and had DPOY existed, most likely '72...and in reality, he was even better in '73.)

Wilt was DOMINANT defensively his very first game in the NBA. I don't know where this claim that he became better in the middle of his career came from. For example, in his rookie season, he reduced Russell, who had a shot a career high .467 against the NBA, to a .393 shooter in their 11 H2H's.

How about his first game against Walt Bellamy? Bellamy came into that game averaging 30 ppg. Wilt told him at the opening tip that he wouldn't score a point. And in the first half, we have DOCUMENTATION that Wilt blocked his first NINE shots. He finally "let" Bellamy play in the second half, and outscored him by a 51-14 margin. He would hold Bellamy to WAY below his normal FG% the rest of their career.

Same with Thurmond, Lanier, and even KAJ.

And with the research that thaRegul8r did, he had Wilt with 5.42 bpg in his LAST season (which is only 12 years removed from Eaton's record of 5.56...all achieved by a 36 year old Wilt.) KAJ never approached that figure (and in fact, the very next season he was at 3.5 bpg.)

And a prime Wilt, cica '65-68, just slaughtered his peers on the defensive end. I am always amazed that Wilt has the two highest non-Russell DWS seasons, but neither one were in '67, when he just absolutely shut everyone down. Murdered them. GOAT defensive one-on-one season in NBA history.

Wilt was, BY FAR, the greatest shot-blocker in NBA history,...and that includes just routing Russell in their known H2H's.

Talking about all time level, Wilt played very good defense in 1960 and 1964 and then great defense in 1967, 1968, 1972, and 1973. The rest of his career, he gave inconsistent effort on the defensive end. It's telling in that Wilt didn't make any All-Defensive team in 1969 and 1971 despite playing the full seasons.

And numerous sources PRAISED him for his exceptional defense in 1972, the kind he didn't play in preceding years.

[LAZERUSS]

Talking about all time level, Wilt played very good defense in 1960 and 1964 and then great defense in 1967, 1968, 1972, and 1973. The rest of his career, he gave inconsistent effort on the defensive end. It's telling in that Wilt didn't make any All-Defensive team in 1969 and 1971 despite playing the full seasons.

And numerous sources PRAISED him for his exceptional defense in 1972, the kind he didn't play in preceding years.

Wilt not making First Team All-Defense in '69 was a joke. Just as was the MVP voting. He BADLY outplayed Russell, Reed, and Unseld in his H2H's, and blew away Bellamy in their H2H's as well. Only Thurmond gave him a run for his money, and in the playoffs, after the first two games, Wilt took over and dismantled him.

'71 was the worst season of his career. Obviously it was the after effects of the horrific injury and surgery he had the previous season, but his numbers were down across the board. STILL, he outplayed a PEAK Kareem in the majority of the 10 total H2H's, and at worst, played him to a draw. This, in Kareem's greatest all-around season, including post-season (and in only 40 mpg BTW), while it was easily the worst of Wilt's career.

Oh, and Wilt was even more dominant defensively in his last season, '73, than he was in his '72 season, when by all accounts he would have won DPOY had the award existed.