ISH Contradiction: KLove DBPM (1.6) , KThompson DBPM (-2.0) Who is the poor defender?

[warriorfan]

So Kevin Love is supposedly a poor defender while it is generally accepted that Klay Thompson is a 3&D role player but I think we can take off the D from that very soon. If we look at the advanced stats it shows the exact opposite.

Kevin Love 2016 DBPM (1.6)
Klay Thompson 2016 DBPM (-2.0)

[1987_Lakers]

Bpm is like PER, it weights stats like reb, steals, blocks, 3p%, etc to come up with a number. Klay's contributions on defense aren't completely captured in rebounds, blocks, and steals.

Klay is a very good man defender, one of the best when it comes to defending smaller point guards because he has the size and the agility.

[Dr Hawk]

1. It is just an advanced stat, doesn't matter much
2. Big man defense is a lot more important than perimeter defense
3. Kevin Love is a LOT worse, eye test tell us that

[ShawkFactory]

Not the either are hugely stat based. But defense goes much much farther beyond the stat sheet than offense.

It's been said, Kevin Love is an excellent defensive rebounder. He's not a good defensive player.

[1987_Lakers]

1. It is just an advanced stat, doesn't matter much
2. Big man defense is a lot more important than perimeter defense
3. Kevin Love is a LOT worse, eye test tell us that

This, I hate when people use advanced defensive stats like DBPM or Defensive Rating to judge an individual defender, they are highly flawed stats, yet people are still stupid enough to use them.

[warriorfan]

So defensive rebounding is not a part of defense now?

:biggums:

[1987_Lakers]

So defensive rebounding is not a part of defense now?

:biggums:

I guess Charles Barkley was a good defender by your logic.

[ShawkFactory]

DBPM also HEAVILY favors big men/forwards. There's one guard in the top 20 active players (tony Allen) and only 2 SFs (Lebron and Iggy). The rest are big men.

Of the active people that have a positive DBPM, only 6 are guards. Out of 58.

Not a remotely fair statistic to compare the defense of a big man and a guard. Two completely separate categories.

[Dr Hawk]

I guess Charles Barkley was a good defender by your logic.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/HhTXt43pk1I1W/200.gif

[G0ATbe]

Love is an elite defender when he's being fed in his sweet spots. Starts not giving a shit when LeBald hijacks the offense.

[warriorfan]

I guess Charles Barkley was a good defender by your logic.

he wasn't great but he gets more hate than he should because he is a loud mouth

you cant have every player breaking off for help defense

you need someone to box out and control the boards

everyone on a good defense has a different role

barkley and loves role was to box out and secure the defensive glass, which is a big part of defense

[Dr Hawk]

he wasn't great but he gets more hate than he should because he is a loud mouth

you cant have every player breaking off for help defense

you need someone to box out and control the boards

everyone on a good defense has a different role

barkley and loves role was to box out and secure the defensive glass, which is a big part of defense

The problem is there would be no defensive rebounds if you let your man score every time, which is the case of Kevin Love

[Smoke117]

meltdown.

[warriorfan]

The problem is there would be no defensive rebounds if you let your man score every time, which is the case of Kevin Love

you are exaggerating so much it makes your statement completely unrealistic

[1987_Lakers]

you are exaggerating so much it makes your statement completely unrealistic

You are over here suggesting Kevin Love is a better defender than Klay, who's being unrealistic? We all know your agenda, just accept this thread backfire and move on.

[warriorfan]

You are over here suggesting Kevin Love is a better defender than Klay, who's being unrealistic? We all know your agenda, just accept this thread backfire and move on.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/6

Kevin Love DRPM: 2.0

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/2

Klay Thompson DRPM: -1.48



RPM is one of the better advanced stats there is. It's showing the exact same thing here.

Are we just supposed to trust your eye test instead? I would maybe if you had watched 90% of Golden State's AND Cleveland's games this season but I'm willing to bet that you have not. The eye test does not apply when your eye does not even see the players playing for the majority of the time! I'm sorry but watching the highlights on espn or better yet the ONE vine play does not qualify as an eye test. All of the advanced stats are pointing to Klay Thompson being a totally overrated defender and Kevin Love being an underrated one. You can fall back and just make more outrageous claims and make links to a single play out of literally tens of thousands and try to apply it to everything, but its bullshit and inaccurate from the truth.

[Dr Hawk]

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/6

Kevin Love DRPM: 2.0

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/2

Klay Thompson DRPM: -1.48



RPM is one of the better advanced stats there is. It's showing the exact same thing here.

Are we just supposed to trust your eye test instead? I would maybe if you had watched 90% of Golden State's AND Cleveland's games this season but I'm willing to bet that you have not. The eye test does not apply when your eye does not even see the players playing for the majority of the time! I'm sorry but watching the highlights on espn or better yet the ONE vine play does not qualify as an eye test. All of the advanced stats are pointing to Klay Thompson being a totally overrated defender and Kevin Love being an underrated one. You can fall back and just make more outrageous claims and make links to a single play out of literally tens of thousands and try to apply it to everything, but its bullshit and inaccurate from the truth.

So just because someone doesn't watch the games he has to take the advanced stats as if they were the holy grail?

If someone doesn't watch games, then he can't have an accurate opinion about how good or bad is someone defending. He can't just go to basketball-reference, look at the advanced stats and claim if someone is good or bad.

[tpols]

if anything this just proves the stat is kinda bs..

I've seen rpm's in the early 2000s where Dirk was > Jason Kidd defensively.. it just rewards big men for some reason.. maybe the rebounding is way overvalued idk.


If youre gonna compare you have to compare players in the same roles, positions, types of teams.. everything has to be the same or similar

[warriorfan]

So just because someone doesn't watch the games he has to take the advanced stats as if they were the holy grail?

If someone doesn't watch games, then he can't have an accurate opinion about how good or bad is someone defending. He can't just go to basketball-reference, look at the advanced stats and claim if someone is good or bad.

Advanced stats are better than most people's "Eye Test".

Like I said before, if someone watches 12 Cleveland games and 2 Golden State games in 2016 they won't be able to accurately gauge Klay Thompson's defense. They might think they do based on the 2 games out of 82 they watched and try to assume that Klay is going to play the exact same over the other 95% of the season based on the 5% they saw....it doesn't work like that though. Everyone makes the claim "I'm unbiased, I swear!", but everyone is biased and that is the truth, however, the numbers do not lie.

[warriorfan]

if anything this just proves the stat is kinda bs..

I've seen rpm's in the early 2000s where Dirk was > Jason Kidd defensively.. it just rewards big men for some reason.. maybe the rebounding is way overvalued idk.


If youre gonna compare you have to compare players in the same roles, positions, types of teams.. everything has to be the same or similar

Sure, we can do that too.

Kevin Love is ranked 16th out of all Power Forwards in DRPM

Klay Thompson is ranked 55th out of all shooting guards in DRPM



http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/6 - Love
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/2 -Thompson


What does that tell you?

[raprap]

Thread backfire. Good job good effort :cheers:

[tpols]

Sure, we can do that too.

Kevin Love is ranked 16th out of all Power Forwards in DRPM

Klay Thompson is ranked 55th out of all shooting guards in DRPM



http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/6 - Love
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/2 -Thompson


What does that tell you?

idk but come playoff time I'll take Klay guarding and locking down whoever, while Love will get abused by the top teams coming at him (assuming the cavs make the Finals).

[DMAVS41]

if anything this just proves the stat is kinda bs..

I've seen rpm's in the early 2000s where Dirk was > Jason Kidd defensively.. it just rewards big men for some reason.. maybe the rebounding is way overvalued idk.


If youre gonna compare you have to compare players in the same roles, positions, types of teams.. everything has to be the same or similar

Rebounding is overvalued in rapm and rpm....but it's way overblown in dbpm...i pretty much just hate the box score metric stuff.

You said it best though...you have to compare like with like.

Having said that though...Love's defense this year has actually been pretty good overall....he just has a terrible matchup against the starting unit of the Warriors.

[Young X]

All these stats you're bringing up are boxscore related. Thompson doesn't get alot of steals, blocks or defensive boards. Love gets alot of defensive boards. Thus he ranks higher in these metrics. Doesn't mean he's a good defender. It just shows you that defense can't be truly measured in boxscore stats.

[warriorfan]

All these stats you're bringing up are boxscore related. Thompson doesn't get alot of steals, blocks or defensive boards. Love gets alot of defensive boards. Thus he ranks higher in these metrics. Doesn't mean he's a good defender. It just shows you that defense can't be truly measured in boxscore stats.

Defensive rebounding is part of defense.

Why is Kevin Love ranked 16th among Power Forwards and Klay Thompson is ranked 55th among Shooting Guards?

[La Frescobaldi]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

"Such critical components of defense as positioning, communication, and the other factors that make Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan elite on defense can't be captured, unfortunately.

What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender."

discuss.

[warriorfan]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

"Such critical components of defense as positioning, communication, and the other factors that make Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan elite on defense can't be captured, unfortunately.

What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender."

discuss.

Ok let'ts throw out BPM then.



How about

Kevin Love is ranked 16th out of all Power Forwards in DRPM

Klay Thompson is ranked 55th out of all shooting guards in DRPM



http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/6 - Love
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/2 -Thompson

Discuss?

[Young X]

Defensive rebounding is part of defense.

Why is Kevin Love ranked 16th among Power Forwards and Klay Thompson is ranked 55th among Shooting Guards?Yes it is but the problem with those stats is they overvalue that aspect of defense and (obviously) don't account for what happens outside of the boxscore.

Things like contested shots, deflections, fighting through screens, double teaming/trapping, pressuring.

^ Defenders like Thompson do alot of those things well. You could even go back to someone like Joe Dumars. He also didn't have good DBPM's for the same reason but he was a great defender.

[knicksman]

if anything this just proves the stat is kinda bs..

I've seen rpm's in the early 2000s where Dirk was > Jason Kidd defensively.. it just rewards big men for some reason.. maybe the rebounding is way overvalued idk.


If youre gonna compare you have to compare players in the same roles, positions, types of teams.. everything has to be the same or similar

Height has an added intimidating factor

[Inferno]

So you're telling me Klay's a bad defender? :coleman:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

So BPM and its variants are now valid stats? Cool.

Kobe is a net negative defender for his career. LeBron > Jordan. Chris Paul > Magic. AK47 > Shaq, Hakeem, and Kobe.

[bigt]

If you really think that defense can accurately be measured by statistics then you really don't have a clue. The majority of things that are done by 'good defenders' won't get on the box score.

[ralph_i_el]

Klay Guards stars. Love gets hidden on D.

Love is one o my favorite players, but this stuff is misleading.

[dhsilv]

So Kevin Love is supposedly a poor defender while it is generally accepted that Klay Thompson is a 3&D role player but I think we can take off the D from that very soon. If we look at the advanced stats it shows the exact opposite.

Kevin Love 2016 DBPM (1.6)
Klay Thompson 2016 DBPM (-2.0)

Klay isn't playing well this year in general.

-1.48 DRPM which indicates to ad egree than DBPM is likely doing a fair job of capturing his issues defensively.

Lobe is at 2.00 DRPM so again DBPM seems to capture it well.

Now keep in mind big guys are just by their nature more valuable defensively. The bigger issue is the gap between average shooting guard and klay vs average power forward and love. Or whatever your replacement level concept is.

[dhsilv]

So BPM and its variants are now valid stats? Cool.

Kobe is a net negative defender for his career. LeBron > Jordan. Chris Paul > Magic. AK47 > Shaq, Hakeem, and Kobe.

Most of that seems to agree with what people think, no? Adjusted for length of career and poor weighting of longer poor parts of one's career....

[WorldWarriors]

oops

[warriorfan]

Klay isn't playing well this year in general.

-1.48 DRPM which indicates to ad egree than DBPM is likely doing a fair job of capturing his issues defensively.

Lobe is at 2.00 DRPM so again DBPM seems to capture it well.

Now keep in mind big guys are just by their nature more valuable defensively. The bigger issue is the gap between average shooting guard and klay vs average power forward and love. Or whatever your replacement level concept is.

Agreed.

But take note that...

There are 54 shooting guards with better DRPM than Klay Thompson.

There are 13 power forwards with better DRPM than Kevin Love

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM

[dhsilv]

Rebounding is overvalued in rapm and rpm....but it's way overblown in dbpm...i pretty much just hate the box score metric stuff.

You said it best though...you have to compare like with like.

Having said that though...Love's defense this year has actually been pretty good overall....he just has a terrible matchup against the starting unit of the Warriors.

I know RPM does use some box score data, but it is primarily driven by the play by play data and on off results, not the box scores. Given in this case and in RAPM rebounding DOES strongly correlate with positive defensive results....it's not that bad a stat.

[dhsilv]

Agreed.

But take note that...

There are 54 shooting guards with better DRPM than Klay Thompson.

There are 13 power forwards with better DRPM than Kevin Love

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM
I won't lie at all. I have just watched much of the cavs, I dislike how they play basketball. I have seen a lot of warriors ball. So I can't comment on if love is playing better this year. Klay is NOT playing well defensively this year compared to last. He just doesn't look right.

[La Frescobaldi]

Klay Guards stars. Love gets hidden on D.

Love is one o my favorite players, but this stuff is misleading.

seems like we agree on just about everything man.

ok let's see:

'68 Camaro, or '70 Challenger?

'15 Camaro, or '15 Challenger?

Dodge Ram or F250? fully loaded, of course.

[La Frescobaldi]

I won't lie at all. I have just watched much of the cavs, I dislike how they play basketball. I have seen a lot of warriors ball. So I can't comment on if love is playing better this year. Klay is NOT playing well defensively this year compared to last. He just doesn't look right.
yeah me too. of course it just may be the Warriors are going so fast. Maybe his transition defense isn't as good as we thought?

[La Frescobaldi]

If you really think that defense can accurately be measured by statistics then you really don't have a clue. The majority of things that are done by 'good defenders' won't get on the box score.

watching film and then standing in a passing lane.

standing exactly on a player's favorite spot.

driving a guard right into the corner and making him frantic.

knowing when to leave a double team.

who you can sag off and who you can't.

knowing when you can overplay a guy with the ball because your center is Timmy Freaking Duncan or Dwight Fing Howard.

knowing a guy's hesitation step and how to use it against him

knowing how to avoid a guy in the post getting his foot between yours.

being able to box out 2 and 3 guys consistently.

none of em going into any stat sheet and there's lots and lots more of those

[stalkerforlife]

Love is a phucking boss, but is obviously being made a scapegoat when/if 2/7 happens.

[Akhenaten]

"Advanced" stats were created so nerds could fool themselves and others that they are an important part of the game. Barkley says a lot of idiotic things but he is 100% percent spot on about "advanced" stats.

[bigt]

watching film and then standing in a passing lane.

standing exactly on a player's favorite spot.

driving a guard right into the corner and making him frantic.

knowing when to leave a double team.

who you can sag off and who you can't.

knowing when you can overplay a guy with the ball because your center is Timmy Freaking Duncan or Dwight Fing Howard.

knowing a guy's hesitation step and how to use it against him

knowing how to avoid a guy in the post getting his foot between yours.

being able to box out 2 and 3 guys consistently.

none of em going into any stat sheet and there's lots and lots more of those

Exactly, good defense is highly nuanced. You tend to find people who play the game more appreciate the stuff that doesn't pop up on the box score. All well and good having a guy get lots of steals on the stats, but they don't always show the failed gambles he's made to get those steals, or how much energy Tony Allen has made his offensive mark expend just to try and get free.

[DMAVS41]

I know RPM does use some box score data, but it is primarily driven by the play by play data and on off results, not the box scores. Given in this case and in RAPM rebounding DOES strongly correlate with positive defensive results....it's not that bad a stat.

I don't like the box score heavy emphasis of the bpm metrics

I do think, like I said earlier, that Love is playing quality defense this year and it's silly to grade him on the worst matchup in the league