#1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

[3ball]

Every single player, coach and analyst says this.. Among non-big men - Bird, Magic, and MJ elevated teammates better than anyone.. Kobe does well too - the story was never that his teammates underperformed.

Otoh, the story is ALWAYS how Lebron's teammates underperform - this is because he turns them into play-finishers and their predictable play-finishing roles no longer succeed against the best teams in the playoffs.

This inferior brand of basketball that Lebron imposes on his team is why his team/supporting cast underperforms - it's like clockwork... 2/7 anyone?.. Utimately, this is why he isn't a top 10 all-time player.
.

[plowking]

You always tell us how poor Scottie played, and how little help MJ has.

Like Scottie shooting 35% and only scoring 15ppg against the Sonics. Not to mention calling it the WOAT help, and giving a numerous amount of other examples.

So I guess we can say that Jordan isn't in that category and made his teammates significantly worse.

[AirBonner]

You always tell us how poor Scottie played, and how little help MJ has.

Like Scottie shooting 35% and only scoring 15ppg against the Sonics. Not to mention calling it the WOAT help, and giving a numerous amount of other examples.

So I guess we can say that Jordan isn't in that category and made his teammates significantly worse.
slayed :lol

[warriorfan]

You always tell us how poor Scottie played, and how little help MJ has.

Like Scottie shooting 35% and only scoring 15ppg against the Sonics. Not to mention calling it the WOAT help, and giving a numerous amount of other examples.

So I guess we can say that Jordan isn't in that category and made his teammates significantly worse.


Wrong.

Scottie was hot garbage before Jordan, this is a known fact.

Scottie still wasn't the greatest even with the Jordan factor but still, if you are gonna try to tell us with a straight face that Scottie would of been better with out Jordan you are just trolling.

Scottie wasn't great but with out Jordan? He would of been straight shithouse material.

[navy]

You always tell us how poor Scottie played, and how little help MJ has.

Like Scottie shooting 35% and only scoring 15ppg against the Sonics. Not to mention calling it the WOAT help, and giving a numerous amount of other examples.

So I guess we can say that Jordan isn't in that category and made his teammates significantly worse.
:oldlol:

[AirBonner]

Wrong.

Scottie was hot garbage before Jordan, this is a known fact.

Scottie still wasn't the greatest even with the Jordan factor but still, if you are gonna try to tell us with a straight face that Scottie would of been better with out Jordan you are just trolling.

Scottie wasn't great but with out Jordan? He would of been straight shithouse material.
You can't say that hypothetical crap. What is a fact is Scottie led a 55 win team without Jordan

[warriorfan]

You can't say that hypothetical crap. What is a fact is Scottie led a 55 win team without Jordan

After getting tutored by the Greatest Player to ever play the game, day in and day out for close to a decade.

You finna act like Jordan didn't have an imprint on that?

:whatever:

[AirBonner]

After getting tutored by the Greatest Player to ever play the game, day in and day out for close to a decade.

You finna act like Jordan didn't have an imprint on that?

:whatever:
I think its mutual thing bud. MJ wasn't winning anything before him

[warriorfan]

I think its mutual thing bud. MJ wasn't winning anything before him

Yeah Jordan got just as much benefit from playing with Pippen as Pippen did with Jordan.

You have exposed yourself as a troll. You can get the **** out now.

[aj1987]

You always tell us how poor Scottie played, and how little help MJ has.

Like Scottie shooting 35% and only scoring 15ppg against the Sonics. Not to mention calling it the WOAT help, and giving a numerous amount of other examples.

So I guess we can say that Jordan isn't in that category and made his teammates significantly worse.
REKT


@warriorsfan, if MJ was so good at developing players, why haven't we seen more Pippen's?

[Dr Hawk]

#1 criteria should be how high was a player's on court impact.

that's why I have Olajuwon comfortably in the Top5

[plowking]

Bulls without Jordan - 55 wins
Lebron James on the Heat in his final year - 54 wins

So Jordan essentially lost to the Magic with a team better than the 2014 Miami Heat. Meanwhile Bron was able to get a worse team to the final.

Bron making his teammates better once again.

[warriorfan]

REKT


@warriorsfan, if MJ was so good at developing players, why haven't we seen more Pippen's?

Thats not how it works. Pippen was inherently talented but lacked the Alphaness to maximize the most out of his talents. Jordan's lead and mentoring let him maximize the most out of his god given tools.

If anyone wants to sit here and say that Pippen would of been just as good of a player with out ever playing with MJ...They are being ridiculous.

[3ball]

You always tell us how poor Scottie played, and how little help MJ has.

Like Scottie shooting 35% and only scoring 15ppg against the Sonics. Not to mention calling it the WOAT help, and giving a numerous amount of other examples.

So I guess we can say that Jordan isn't in that category and made his teammates significantly worse.


Jordan's team won every series where Pippen played poorly - in those series, Jordan simply carried the team and didn't worry about Pippen.

But anytime Jordan needed Pippen to play well to win the series, he made sure Pippen was playing well.

There was only a ONE game where Scottie's poor performance caused the Bulls to lose, and Jordan was helpless to do anything about it - this was Pippen's epic choke in Game 7 of ECF (1-10 for 2 points), where Pippen admitted (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s) the pressure got to him.. Not much MJ could do about that.

[aj1987]

Thats not how it works. Pippen was inherently talented but lacked the Alphaness to maximize the most out of his talents. Jordan's lead and mentoring let him maximize the most out of his god given tools.

If anyone wants to sit here and say that Pippen would of been just as good of a player with out ever playing with MJ...They are being ridiculous.
So, what happened during the 2nd 3peat? MJ stopped pushing him? Also, what about the dozens of other athletic players? He couldn't develop them into at least Kevin Martin level offensive players? How about Bill Cartwright? Luc Longley? Bosh was a better rebounder than them.

[3ball]

#1 criteria should be how high was a player's on court impact.

that's why I have Olajuwon comfortably in the Top5


3-peat to 2nd Round and back to 3-peat is the GOAT impact...

Heck, if we wanted to confirm MJ's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, we'd have him come back and 3-peat again while winning MVP's the whole way.... Done and Done.

Also, MJ had the GOAT impact on bad teams too - just look at 1989 - the 47-win Bulls would've missed 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8/54%.

So the Bulls would've been lottery heading into 1990, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting first 3-peat.. Again, that's the GOAT impact.. :pimp:

[plowking]

Jordan's team won every series where Pippen played poorly - in those series, Jordan simply carried the team and didn't worry about Pippen.

]But anytime Jordan needed Pippen to play well to win the series, he made sure Pippen was playing well[/COLOR].

There was only a ONE game where Scottie's poor performance caused the Bulls to lose, and Jordan was helpless to do anything about it - this was Pippen's epic choke in Game 7 of ECF (1-10 for 2 points), where Pippen admitted (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s) the pressure got to him.. Not much MJ could do about that.

How about when the team carried Jordan in the 5-19 performance?
Can you imagine Bron's Cavaliers beating a 66 win team like the Sonics, or say the GSW with Bron shooting 5-19?

Or how about his massive choke in 98 against the Pacers in game 7? 9/25 and down almost the whole game? Thankfully Kukoc and Kerr are there to hit the big shots and carry him to victory.


All this bullshit talk about MJ being on a whole other level mentally, and his will to win needs to stop. Like anyone who has ever played sports, you realise a lot of it is up to you, but then there is being the winner of circumstance and chance, and those are all the things that came together for MJ in a way that didn't for many others.

MJ is no better a player than Shaq or Wilt or Lebron. Those 4 in all likelihood are probably the best basketball players ever. If one is better than the other, it isn't because of some BS, arbitrary standard you hold them to. 2/6 for Bron? Who cares. 1/9 for West? Who cares. Is West any worse a player because he lost 8 times? Clearly he is good enough to compete on the biggest stage every time.

[aj1987]

3-peat to 2nd Round and back to 3-peat is the GOAT impact...

Heck, if we wanted to confirm MJ's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, we'd have him come back and 3-peat again while winning MVP's the whole way.... Done and Done.

Also, MJ had the GOAT impact on bad teams too - just look at 1989 - the 47-win Bulls would've missed 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8/54%.

So the Bulls would've been lottery heading into 1990, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting first 3-peat.. Again, that's the GOAT impact.. :pimp:
'06-'10 Cav's and '09 Heat would've been in the lottery as well. Wade and LeBron... GOAT level impact. :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Dr Hawk]

3-peat to 2nd Round and back to 3-peat is the GOAT impact...

Heck, if we wanted to confirm MJ's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, we'd have him come back and 3-peat again while winning MVP's the whole way.... Done and Done.

Also, MJ had the GOAT impact on bad teams too - just look at 1989 - the 47-win Bulls would've missed 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8/54%.

So the Bulls would've been lottery heading into 1990, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting first 3-peat.. Again, that's the GOAT impact.. :pimp:

Wrong. Olajuwon had a higher impact than Jordan.

1994 Finals. Olajuwon's second best player was Vernon Maxwell. His stats were:

13/3/3 on .365 FG%

That was the SECOND best player. Olajuwon still managed to beat the Ewing's, Starks', Oakley's, Mason's Knicks.

Jordan never did that

[warriorfan]

'06-'10 Cav's and '09 Heat would've been in the lottery as well. Wade and LeBron... GOAT level impact. :bowdown: :bowdown:

Boosting a lotto team to an early playoff exit team is nothing to brag about. There has been countless players with this ability.

What makes a player special is the ability to make a good team one of the greatest of all time.

[plowking]

Jordan shoots 47% TS against 61 win Miami team. No worries guys, series is over with a 4-1 win despite Jordan taking such a large number of shots too.

He made sure his teammates played well and carried him.

[aj1987]

Boosting a lotto team to an early playoff exit team is nothing to brag about. There has been countless players with this ability.

What makes a player special is the ability to make a good team one of the greatest of all time.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Please stop posting, dude.

[warriorfan]

Jordan shoots 47% TS against 61 win Miami team. No worries guys, series is over with a 4-1 win despite Jordan taking such a large number of shots too.

He made sure his teammates played well and carried him.

You are right he should of played LeBron ball and went for only 3 pointers and lay ups, saving his TS%, losing the series, and then still able to fall back and say "not enough help."

Genius.

[aj1987]

You are right he should of played LeBron ball and went for only 3 pointers and lay ups, saving his TS%, losing the series, and then still able to fall back and say "not enough help."

Genius.
So, what about the last Finals? Don't you constantly bitch about it like you're on your period?

[3ball]

How about when the team carried Jordan in the 5-19 performance in game 6 of 1996 Finals?


In addition to Jordan's 22/9/7 in Game 6, he carried the team defensively - he held Hawkins to 2-6 for 4 points, which was 12 points less than Hawkins RS average and Finals average through 5 games.

Otoh, all the other Bulls let their man go OFF - Pippen let Schrempf get 23 points on 53% shooting... Rodman let Kemp get 18/14 on 47%... Payton went off for 19/7 on 70% shooting... Everyone got destroyed EXCEPT Jordan - Jordan held his man to 12 points below his average, and the Bulls won by 12.

Meanwhile, Lebron can't even stop role players from being > Duncan (2014 Finals) or Curry (2015 Finals).





Can you imagine Bron's Cavaliers beating a 66 win team like the Sonics, or say the GSW with Bron shooting 5-19?


MJ can do that because he carried his team defensively - and also, his style allows teammates to play well offensively alongside him.

Otoh, Lebron's defense is shit, and his teammates play like shit in the reduced play-finishing roles he imposes on them..

That's why he lost as a big favorite to Dwight's Magic, even though he averaged a career-high 39 ppg (sidenote: MJ had 6 series where he averaged over 40 ppg).





Or how about his massive choke in 98 against the Pacers in game 7? 9/25 and down almost the whole game? Thankfully Kukoc and Kerr are there to hit the big shots and carry him to victory.


29/9/8 with all the big plays down the stretch is a massive choke?

That's the best you can do?... That's the problem with trying to single out Jordan's worst games - his worst games are FAR better than everyone else's worst games, and he has far less OF them.

Should we compare 28/9/8 or 22/9/7 plus carrying the team defensively to Lebron's worst games?... There's no way you want to do that - it's a pointless exercise that you will lose very badly.
.

[aj1987]

In addition to Jordan's 22/9/7 in Game 6, he carried the team defensively - he held Hawkins to 2-6 for 4 points, which was 12 points less than Hawkins RS average and Finals average through 5 games.

Otoh, all the other Bulls let their man go OFF - Pippen let Schrempf get 23 points on 53% shooting... Rodman let Kemp get 18/14 on 47%... Payton went off for 19/7 on 70% shooting... Everyone got destroyed EXCEPT Jordan - Jordan held his man to 12 points below his average, and the Bulls won by 12.

Meanwhile, Lebron can't even stop role players from being > Duncan (2014 Finals) or Curry (2015 Finals).
Battier was defending Kawhi most of the time and Delly was on Curry. It's so easy to flip your logic on you. Scottie shut down Hawkins. MJ let Schrempf and Payton run a train on him.


MJ can do that because he carried his team defensively - and also, his style allows teammates to play well offensively alongside him.
Nope. Pippen was a better defender.


That's why he lost as a big favorite to Dwight's Magic, even though he averaged a career-high 39 ppg (MJ had 6 series where he averaged over 40 mpg).
And yet, when MJ loses, his teammates as horrible. When LeBron loses, he choked.

[knicksman]

This is really my first criteria. Whats use of better stats if he cant fit? Thats the spurs philosophy. Thats why im no fan of the westbrook, iverson, bran. They fill the statsheet but that style cant fit in a team concept. Thats why these guys have impacts lesser than their stats suggest. And some of them are even considered cancers by teammates. I prefer players like jordan, durant who are off-ball scorers or magic/isiah/cp3 who are pure pgs. Because you can still add players to them to make the whole greater than the sum of its parts. Meanwhile bran is a finished product. You cant add a player to fit with him. You cant add a durant/cp3 coz they are rendered useless.

[3ball]

Battier was defending Kawhi most of the time and Delly was on Curry. It's so easy to flip your logic on you. Scottie shut down Hawkins. MJ let Schrempf and Payton run a train on him.


Except you're lying and I'm telling the truth.

We aren't playing games with "logic" that you can "flip around" - we're stating facts here.. MJ didn't guard Schrempf or Payton in Game 6... He guarded Hawkins.

Now in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg), MJ was the primary defender on Payton - that's well-documented and common knowledge (click the links).

But not Game 6... In Game 6, Phil went back to the matchups he started the series with - SG vs. SG - MJ vs. Hawkins.
.

[aj1987]

Except you're lying and I'm telling the truth.

We aren't playing games with "logic" that you can "flip around" - we're stating facts here.. MJ didn't guard Schrempf or Payton in Game 6... He guarded Hawkins.

Now in Game 3 ([url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg), MJ was the primary defender on Payton - that's well-documented and common knowledge (click the links).

But not Game 6... In Game 6, Phil went back to the matchups he started the series with - SG vs. SG - MJ vs. Hawkins.
Prove it.

[3ball]

Prove it.
You think it's hard to prove dumbass?

I'm about to very easily... Sit tight

[aj1987]

You think it's hard to prove dumbass?

I'm about to very easily... Sit tight
Yep. Show me where LeBron was guarding Curry/Kawhi for large stretches of the game and that MJ guarded Hawkins for the entire game.

BTW, Pippen scored 17/8/5 with 4 steals in that game and Rodman 9/19/5 with 3 steals and a block. Are you also gonna tell me that MJ shutdown Perkins?

[3ball]

.
Here's Game 3 where Jordan is the PRIMARY DEFENDER on Payton and matched up with him from tip-off - Marv Albert says it right before the first possession HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) (Bill Walton reiterates it too), and here's the first possession of the game, showing Jordan on Payton:


https://media.giphy.com/media/K2HTSy4Lj8Qh2/giphy.gif



This is Game 5, where Jordan is the primary defender on Payton again - here's game footage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahjmlco0roc&t=4m57s), showing Jordan guarding Payton from tip-off, and here's the first possession of the game showing Jordan is matched up with Payton:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/1-22-2016/DWQyhB.gif



Here's Game 6, where Jordan is the primary defender on Hawkins, while PG Harper is back on PG Payton, and SF Pippen is on SF Schrempf:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/1-22-2016/B3QmoK.gif



So there you go - Jordan held Hawkins to 2-6 for 4 points, which was 12 points less than his RS average and his average thru 5 games if Finals.

Meanwhile, Pippen was raped by Schrempf for 23 points on 53%... Payton killed Harper for 19 points on 70%... And Kemp destroyed Rodman for 18/14 on 47% (23/10 on 63.3 ts for series)..

Jordan CARRIED them defensively in Game 6 - he was the only guy who locked his man down, while Pip, Rodman and Harper's assignments had huge games.. And of course, MJ still led the team on offense as always, with 22/9/7.. That's how the Bulls won Game 6.
.

[aj1987]

.
Here's Game 3 where Jordan is the PRIMARY DEFENDER on Payton and matched up with him from tip-off - Marv Albert says it right before the first possession HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) (Bill Walton reiterates it too), and here's the first possession of the game, showing Jordan on Payton:

This is Game 5, where Jordan is the primary defender on Payton again - here's game footage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahjmlco0roc&t=4m57s), showing Jordan guarding Payton from tip-off, and here's the first possession of the game showing Jordan is matched up with Payton:

Here's Game 6, where Jordan is the primary defender on Hawkins, while PG Harper is back on PG Payton, and SF Pippen is on SF Schrempf:

So there you go - Jordan held Hawkins to 2-6 for 4 points, which was 12 points less than his RS average and his average thru 5 games if Finals.

Meanwhile, Pippen was raped by Schrempf for 23 points on 53%... Payton killed Harper for 19 points on 70%... And Kemp destroyed Rodman for 18/14 on 47% (23/10 on 63.3 ts for series)..

Jordan CARRIED them defensively in Game 6 - he was the only guy who locked his man down, while Pip, Rodman and Harper's assignments had huge games.. And of course, MJ still led the team on offense as always, with 22/9/7.. That's how the Bulls won Game 6.
.
You literally posted ONE gif from game 6 and that's not even the entire play.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

How about when the team carried Jordan in the 5-19 performance in game 6 of 1996 Finals?


In addition to Jordan's 22/9/7 in Game 6, he carried the team defensively - he held Hawkins to 2-6 for 4 points, which was 12 points less than Hawkins RS average and Finals average through 5 games.

Otoh, all the other Bulls let their man go OFF - Pippen let Schrempf get 23 points on 53% shooting... Rodman let Kemp get 18/14 on 47%... Payton went off for 19/7 on 70% shooting... Everyone got destroyed EXCEPT Jordan - Jordan held his man to 12 points below his average, and the Bulls won by 12.

Meanwhile, Lebron can't even stop role players from being > Duncan (2014 Finals) or Curry (2015 Finals).





Can you imagine Bron's Cavaliers beating a 66 win team like the Sonics, or say the GSW with Bron shooting 5-19?


MJ can do that because he carried his team defensively - and also, his style allows teammates to play well offensively alongside him.

Otoh, Lebron's defense is shit, and his teammates play like shit in the reduced play-finishing roles he imposes on them..

That's why he lost as a big favorite to Dwight's Magic, even though he averaged a career-high 39 ppg (sidenote: MJ had 6 series where he averaged over 40 ppg).





Or how about his massive choke in 98 against the Pacers in game 7? 9/25 and down almost the whole game? Thankfully Kukoc and Kerr are there to hit the big shots and carry him to victory.


29/9/8 with all the big plays down the stretch is a massive choke?

That's the best you can do?... That's the problem with trying to single out Jordan's worst games - his worst games are FAR better than everyone else's worst games, and he has far less OF them.

Should we compare 28/9/8 or 22/9/7 plus carrying the team defensively to Lebron's worst games?... There's no way you want to do that - it's a pointless exercise that you will lose very badly.

[3ball]

You literally posted ONE gif from game 6 and that's not even the entire play.


Jordan was the PRIMARY DEFENDER on Hawkins in Game 6 - this is indisputable fact - look at the footage - it's all there.

Btw, that's the problem with trying to single out Jordan's worst games - his worst games are FAR better than everyone else's worst games, and he has far less OF them.

Should we compare 28/9/8 or 22/9/7 plus carrying the team defensively to Lebron's worst games?... There's no way you want to do that - it's a pointless exercise that you will lose very badly... Lebron has 10 point, 8 point and 7 point playoff games - obviously, ALL LOSSES.

so yeah, the previous post that responded to plowking stands...
.

[aj1987]

Jordan was the PRIMARY DEFENDER on Hawkins in Game 6 - this is indisputable fact - look at the footage - it's all there.

Btw, that's the problem with trying to single out Jordan's worst games - his worst games are FAR better than everyone else's worst games, and he has far less OF them.

Should we compare 28/9/8 or 22/9/7 plus carrying the team defensively to Lebron's worst games?... There's no way you want to do that - it's a pointless exercise that you will lose very badly... Lebron has 10 point, 8 point and 7 point playoff games - obviously, ALL LOSSES.

so yeah, the previous post that responded to plowking stands...
.
If being this delusional helps you sleep better, then sure. :cheers:

[3ball]

If being this delusional helps you sleep better, then sure. :cheers:
Translation of your post: you posted facts and proved your point and I have nothing

#whiteflag

[aj1987]

Translation of your post: you posted facts and proved your point and I have nothing

#whiteflag
You're retarded and delusional. :oldlol:


You literally posted ONE gif from game 6 and that's not even the entire play.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

You literally posted ONE gif from game 6 and that's not even the entire play.

:oldlol:


Jordan was Hawkins' primary defender in Game 6.. The fact that you're denying it even though I provided the footage makes you immature.
.

[aj1987]

Are you retarded?... Watch the game

Jordan was Hawkins' primary defender in Game 6.. The fact that you're denying it makes you immature.
I'm not denying it, you *** dumpster. You said you would prove it and I want you to prove it. You posted a single random gif like the ****** you are. Don't have the time to watch a 90 minute game just for a couple of plays. Unlike you, I have a life.

[TommyGriffin]

I'm not denying it, you *** dumpster. You said you would prove it and I want you to prove it. You posted a single random gif like the ****** you are. Don't have the time to watch a 90 minute game just for a couple of plays. Unlike you, I have a life.

Meltdown.

[aj1987]

Meltdown.
Right on cue. As soon as warriorfan signed out, you appear. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Bulls without Jordan - 55 wins


That's nothing - they were 3-peat champions with 3-peat know-how and execution on both sides of the ball..

Imagine if the Warriors win championship the next two years, giving them a 3-peat - if Curry retires in 2018, the Warriors win 55 easily..

But ultimately, the regular season is exhibition compared to the playoffs - so the Warriors would still lose in the playoffs, probably the 2nd Round, just like the Bulls did.

The Bulls were an ordinary 2nd Round team without Jordan, and a 3-peat dynasty with him.. If we wanted to verify Jordan's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, we'd ask him to comeback and 3-peat again, while winning MVP's the whole way.... Done and Done.





MJ's impact on bad teams wasn't elite


MJ had the GOAT impact on bad teams too - just look at 1989 - the 47-win Bulls would've missed 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8/54%.

So the Bulls would've been lottery heading into 1990, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting first 3-peat.. Again, that's the GOAT impact.
.

[LAZERUSS]

EVERY team that Lebron joined IMPROVED DRAMATICALLY, and EVERY team he left fell off the cliff.

Furthermore, his Heat went 47-18 WITHOUT Wade!

And when he joined the Cavs last season, they not only went from a 33-49 team to a 53-29 team...without Lebron, they were 3-10, and with him, 50-19! Oh, his former Heat team...they added Deng and Whiteside, and fell to 37-45.

Then he took a roster FAR worse than what Jordan had in his '87 choke job against the crumbling Celtics and was SWEPT...to single-handedly winning TWO games, and nearly TWO more...against an All-time great 67-15 Warrior team. With JR Screwball Smith as his second best player.

Also, MJ NEVER beat a great team. Hell, in the watered down 90's, Hakeem and role players were winning titles. Ewing's Knicks had no more talent than Hakeem's either.

Jordan never had a winning record without Pippen. Nor was remotely close to a title without Pippen and Grant/Rodman (two ELITE PFs.)

AND, when MJ left the Bulls after '93, a 55-27 team that came within ONE PLAY of beating the 56-26 Knicks in six games. The same NY team that would lose a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals. Hell, had Pippen and Grant not missed a whopping 22 games, they would have had HCA edge throughout the playoffs, and may very well have won a title without Jordan. Think about that...the '94 Bulls basically replaced Jordan with PETE MYERS, and nearly won a title.

Lebron's TEAM impact was considerably greater than Jordan's.

Give MJ a very good supporting cast, and in a weak era, and he would win titles. I would even say that if both Lebron and MJ had very good supporting casts, that MJ would outplay Lebron enough to beat him. But, give them mediocre or average rosters, and Lebron would take them further.



All FACTS.

[Straight_Ballin]

I think its mutual thing bud. MJ wasn't winning anything before him

:roll: :roll: :roll:

You thought wrong then!

I'll tell you a secret though, Lebron hasn't elevated any teammate. Where is Boobie Gibson and Damon Jones at to name a few? These guys got tainted with Lebron ball and it ruined their outlook on the sport.

[plowking]

You are right he should of played LeBron ball and went for only 3 pointers and lay ups, saving his TS%, losing the series, and then still able to fall back and say "not enough help."

Genius.

So when he shoots against the Warriors, it is bad.
When he shoots efficiently against the Spurs, it is bad.

Does Lebron ever do any right?

[sdot_thadon]

You always tell us how poor Scottie played, and how little help MJ has.

Like Scottie shooting 35% and only scoring 15ppg against the Sonics. Not to mention calling it the WOAT help, and giving a numerous amount of other examples.

So I guess we can say that Jordan isn't in that category and made his teammates significantly worse.
Death by 1st reply.

[Smoke117]

How about when the team carried Jordan in the 5-19 performance?
Can you imagine Bron's Cavaliers beating a 66 win team like the Sonics, or say the GSW with Bron shooting 5-19?

Or how about his massive choke in 98 against the Pacers in game 7? 9/25 and down almost the whole game? Thankfully Kukoc and Kerr are there to hit the big shots and carry him to victory.


All this bullshit talk about MJ being on a whole other level mentally, and his will to win needs to stop. Like anyone who has ever played sports, you realise a lot of it is up to you, but then there is being the winner of circumstance and chance, and those are all the things that came together for MJ in a way that didn't for many others.

MJ is no better a player than Shaq or Wilt or Lebron. Those 4 in all likelihood are probably the best basketball players ever. If one is better than the other, it isn't because of some BS, arbitrary standard you hold them to. 2/6 for Bron? Who cares. 1/9 for West? Who cares. Is West any worse a player because he lost 8 times? Clearly he is good enough to compete on the biggest stage every time.


Why are you even bothering? You can't reason with a clown like 3ball. Just put 1-9 like I do and otherwise ignore him.

[livinglegend]

You always tell us how poor Scottie played, and how little help MJ has.

Like Scottie shooting 35% and only scoring 15ppg against the Sonics. Not to mention calling it the WOAT help, and giving a numerous amount of other examples.

So I guess we can say that Jordan isn't in that category and made his teammates significantly worse.

/ thread

[LAZERUSS]

So when he shoots against the Warriors, it is bad.
When he shoots efficiently against the Spurs, it is bad.

Does Lebron ever do any right?

:cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

You always tell us how poor Scottie played, and how little help MJ has.

Like Scottie shooting 35% and only scoring 15ppg against the Sonics. Not to mention calling it the WOAT help, and giving a numerous amount of other examples.

So I guess we can say that Jordan isn't in that category and made his teammates significantly worse.

THIS!

[LAZERUSS]

Not only was it amazing that the '94 Bulls went 55-27, but they did so DESPITE having Pippen (WOAT), and Grant, who was a below average PF.

No doubt about it...Pete Myers was MJ-like in '94.

[tmacattack33]

Every single player, coach and analyst says this.. Among non-big men - Bird, Magic, and MJ elevated teammates better than anyone.. Kobe does well too - the story was never that his teammates underperformed.

Otoh, the story is ALWAYS how Lebron's teammates underperform - this is because he turns them into play-finishers and their predictable play-finishing roles no longer succeed against the best teams in the playoffs.

This inferior brand of basketball that Lebron imposes on his team is why his team/supporting cast underperforms - it's like clockwork... 2/7 anyone?.. Utimately, this is why he isn't a top 10 all-time player.
.

Yes, one of the best passers of all time in Lebron James does not make his teammates better.

He's never carried a team of role players into the NBA Finals or ECF.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, I have MJ over Lebron...as does virtually every intelligent poster on this forum (and elsewhere.) But I get sick-and-tired of the daily "Lebron-bashing" that goes on with 3ball.

MJ has a case for GOAT (and most likely the majority feel he is), and Lebron does not. But Lebron certainly is a Top-10 player.

[SouBeachTalents]

You always tell us how poor Scottie played, and how little help MJ has.

Like Scottie shooting 35% and only scoring 15ppg against the Sonics. Not to mention calling it the WOAT help, and giving a numerous amount of other examples.

So I guess we can say that Jordan isn't in that category and made his teammates significantly worse.

Thread ended after the first reply :applause:

[RRR3]

There aren't enough touches for Love and Bosh to put up 24+ PPG as 3rd options. Why don't people get this? Should LeBron just shoot 5 times a game and force feed Love just so his stats look like they did in minneosta? Jesus. LeBron doesn't hurt his teammates. He's not as helpful as some act like though.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Every single player, coach and analyst says this.. Among non-big men - Bird, Magic, and MJ elevated teammates better than anyone.. Kobe does well too - the story was never that his teammates underperformed.

Otoh, the story is ALWAYS how Lebron's teammates underperform - this is because he turns them into play-finishers and their predictable play-finishing roles no longer succeed against the best teams in the playoffs.

This inferior brand of basketball that Lebron imposes on his team is why his team/supporting cast underperforms - it's like clockwork... 2/7 anyone?.. Utimately, this is why he isn't a top 10 all-time player.
.

nope

not dealing with this shit again

[ShawkFactory]

Wrong.

Scottie was hot garbage before Jordan, this is a known fact.

Scottie still wasn't the greatest even with the Jordan factor but still, if you are gonna try to tell us with a straight face that Scottie would of been better with out Jordan you are just trolling.

Scottie wasn't great but with out Jordan? He would of been straight shithouse material.Do you ever know what you're talking about? :lol

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Not only was it amazing that the '94 Bulls went 55-27, but they did so DESPITE having Pippen (WOAT), and Grant, who was a below average PF.

No doubt about it...Pete Myers was MJ-like in '94.


I prefer to look at SRS when determining team success in teh regular season (has the best correlation with playoff success in my research, nearly 50% of the teams with the highest SRS won the championship post 1980)

the bulls SRS did drop a good bit post Jordan, but it was still the SRS of a 49-51 win team.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

You always tell us how poor Scottie played, and how little help MJ has.

Like Scottie shooting 35% and only scoring 15ppg against the Sonics. Not to mention calling it the WOAT help, and giving a numerous amount of other examples.

So I guess we can say that Jordan isn't in that category and made his teammates significantly worse.


Lolz

[ShawkFactory]

You always tell us how poor Scottie played, and how little help MJ has.

Like Scottie shooting 35% and only scoring 15ppg against the Sonics. Not to mention calling it the WOAT help, and giving a numerous amount of other examples.

So I guess we can say that Jordan isn't in that category and made his teammates significantly worse.
Like...literally destroyed.

I hope, with things like this, that more people can start to realize that he is nothing but an agenda driven troll :oldlol:

[tmacattack33]

You always tell us how poor Scottie played, and how little help MJ has.

Like Scottie shooting 35% and only scoring 15ppg against the Sonics. Not to mention calling it the WOAT help, and giving a numerous amount of other examples.

So I guess we can say that Jordan isn't in that category and made his teammates significantly worse.

:applause:

I shoulda just quoted this post instead of posting my own reply to this thread.

Ethered.

[Smoke117]

Like...literally destroyed.

I hope, with things like this, that more people can start to realize that he is nothing but an agenda driven troll :oldlol:

...if they haven't realized that by now then they never will. The only difference between his post now and when he came onto ish a little less than a year ago is he now makes insecure threads hating on Lebron and Curry to go along with his Jordan dick sucking ones.

[LAZERUSS]

I prefer to look at SRS when determining team success in teh regular season (has the best correlation with playoff success in my research, nearly 50% of the teams with the highest SRS won the championship post 1980)

the bulls SRS did drop a good bit post Jordan, but it was still the SRS of a 49-51 win team.

Look, no one would seriously claim that the '94 Bulls were a great team. I do tend to exaggerate that team, only to dismiss 3ball's nonsense about how little help he had.

But, a couple of points. The '94 Bulls had Pippen and Grant missing a combined 22 games. Given their 55-27 record, I think that, had they been healthy, they likely would have won 60. Which would have given them HCA against both the 56-26 Knicks, and then the 58-24 Rockets (had they gotten that far.)

Still, had they had MJ in '94, they would have waltzed to a title. I'm not so sure about '95, given that they didn't have a premier PF. But, we saw what happened when they added HOFer Rodman. Three more titles.

In any case, MJ had the most stacked supporting casts in the watered down 90's. NONE of the teams in that decade were particularly overly talented. Most all of them had no more than two great players, and in most cases, only one.

Again, look at the '94 Knicks and Rockets. Each team had one great player, and a bunch of role players. The '96 Sonics, the '97 and '98 Jazz were not much more talented, either.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Look, no one would seriously claim that the '94 Bulls were a great team. I do tend to exaggerate that team, only to dismiss 3ball's nonsense about how little help he had.

But, a couple of points. The '94 Bulls had Pippen and Grant missing a combined 22 games. Given their 55-27 record, I think that, had they been healthy, they likely would have won 60. Which would have given them HCA against both the 56-26 Knicks, and then the 58-24 Rockets (had they gotten that far.)

Still, had they had MJ in '94, they would have waltzed to a title. I'm not so sure about '95, given that they didn't have a premier PF. But, we saw what happened when they added HOFer Rodman. Three more titles.

In any case, MJ had the most stacked supporting casts in the watered down 90's. NONE of the teams in that decade were particularly overly talented. Most all of them had no more than two great players, and in most cases, only one.

Again, look at the '94 Knicks and Rockets. Each team had one great player, and a bunch of role players. The '96 Sonics, the '97 and '98 Jazz were not much more talented, either.

Oh, yeah, I totally agree.

Just saying though.

Also, its 3 am and im literally struggling to type right now lol

[ClipperRevival]

Look, no one would seriously claim that the '94 Bulls were a great team. I do tend to exaggerate that team, only to dismiss 3ball's nonsense about how little help he had.

But, a couple of points. The '94 Bulls had Pippen and Grant missing a combined 22 games. Given their 55-27 record, I think that, had they been healthy, they likely would have won 60. Which would have given them HCA against both the 56-26 Knicks, and then the 58-24 Rockets (had they gotten that far.)

Still, had they had MJ in '94, they would have waltzed to a title. I'm not so sure about '95, given that they didn't have a premier PF. But, we saw what happened when they added HOFer Rodman. Three more titles.

In any case, MJ had the most stacked supporting casts in the watered down 90's. NONE of the teams in that decade were particularly overly talented. Most all of them had no more than two great players, and in most cases, only one.

Again, look at the '94 Knicks and Rockets. Each team had one great player, and a bunch of role players. The '96 Sonics, the '97 and '98 Jazz were not much more talented, either.

It really pisses you off that MJ went 6/6 and "Ilt" aka "The Big Dipper" failed when it mattered most huh? That's why you have a need to completely degrade MJ's accomplishments huh?

I could easily DESTROY this thread but it's not worthy my time. I don't want to see pages and pages of Ilt's individual numbers and the same excuses.

[LAZERUSS]

It really pisses you off that MJ went 6/6 and "Ilt" aka "The Big Dipper" failed when it mattered most huh? That's why you have a need to completely degrade MJ's accomplishments huh?

I could easily DESTROY this thread but it's not worthy my time. I don't want to see pages and pages of Ilt's individual numbers and the same excuses.

I have MJ at #2, and behind Wilt. Most will have MJ above Chamberlain (and most will not have seen enough of Wilt, Russell, Kareem, et al, to make an educated opinion.)

But, these daily "Lebron bashing" topics are ridiculous.

I'm supposed to believe that MJ could have taken the pathetic cast of clowns that Lebron had in '07, or in '14, or in '15...to titles...

when MJ couldn't past the first round with as much surrounding talent as Lebron had in those years? And please, don't give me Wade. He was a broken down shell in '14 (and Bosh, as always, was completely worthless.)

Just look at the '15 Finals. Lebron's second best teammate (at least the guy who took the second most shots) was JR Smith, who was FAR worse than MJ's second best player (Oakley) in his '87 series against the Celtics. And let's get real here. The '87 Celtics were already on the decline, and would get routed by the Lakers in the Finals. On the flip side, we are now coming to see that the '15 Warriors may have been an all-time great team.

And yet, MJ couldn't sniff a win against that 59 win Boston team...and on the other side, Lebron single-handedly won TWO games, and nearly two more against a 67 win Warrior team.

I'll give MJ 2011....IF, he would have just assumed the leader role, unlike Lebron, who deferred to Wade.

No way in hell does MJ win in '07, '14, or '15. There is NOTHING in his post-season career that suggests that he would have.

And before Goofball brings up '96 thru '98...there were articles claiming that Pippen should have won the FMVP in '98, and Rodman in '96. Now, whether anyone agrees or not...did we see anyone proclaiming that JR was a FMVP candidate? And we KNOW that Pippen and Rodman (and Grant) always brought all-world defense. Lebron's casts in '14 and '15 were complete bystanders (Bosh made an old Duncan look like a prime Shaq, and when Spolestra realized that he couldn't defend anyone in the post, he moved him to the perimeter, where he stood by in amusement and watched the Spurs shooting uncontested 3pt shots.)

It amazes me that MJ won three titles from '96 thru '98, shooting .415, .455, and .427 from the field (and had Karl put Payton on MJ in game one of the '96 Finals, instead of game four, who knows how that series would have turned out?) Yep...MJ was single-handedly carrying those rosters to titles, all while shooting 5-19 in a clinching game win. BTW, I love how Goofball claims that it was MJ's DEFENSE on Hersey Hawkins that won that series. Yep, he dominated a Hawkins who averaged 15 ppg in the regular season, and 12 ppg in the post-season. No doubt, THAT was the key to winning that series. No mention of Payton castrating Jordan in the last three games, though...with REAL world-class defense.