Pop

[LAZERUSS]

Watching the game last night, and the Spurs playing their d-league players for much of the game, wiped out the Suns.

I am beginning to think that Popovich could guide a WNBA team to an NBA title. This year may be the GOAT coaching performance.

[sportjames23]

Could Pop take Wilt to an NBA title?

[LAZERUSS]

Could Pop take Wilt to an NBA title?

Every season.

[sportjames23]

Could Phil or Riley do it?

[Dr Hawk]

Could Phil or Riley do it?

No

[LAZERUSS]

Could Phil or Riley do it?

Give Wilt MAGIC for 10 seasons, and he would have won ten titles.

[swagga]

laz you're wasting your breath on these peasants. They're only bandwagoner player stans.. today lebron tomorrow curry yesterday kobe and their fathers all stopped watching basketball in '96.

a great coach like pop/carlisle/riley/etc counts as much as (probably more than) another allstar on your team's roster, one that fits well too.

pop just doing what he does
carlisle putting the mavs in the PO
nothing new here.

[swagga]

Could Phil or Riley do it?

great coaches for superstars, but they'd get lesser results with that spurs roster.
but pop wouldn't work well with lebron & kobe. So there are always two sides of the coin.

[swagga]

Give Wilt MAGIC for 10 seasons, and he would have won ten titles.

no shit compadre

[swagga]

Every season.

not sure about that one laz. pop isn't the type to put up with peak wilt's escapades. Imo phil jackson would be the best fit for wilt. Wilt was supremely talented and dominant, he just needed a good coach with GOAT ego management ... shaq was lucky tbh.

[LAZERUSS]

laz you're wasting your breath on these peasants. They're only bandwagoner player stans.. today lebron tomorrow curry yesterday kobe and their fathers all stopped watching basketball in '96.

a great coach like pop/carlisle/riley/etc counts as much as (probably more than) another allstar on your team's roster, one that fits well too.

pop just doing what he does
carlisle putting the mavs in the PO
nothing new here.

I grew up watching Wooden taking all kinds of different rosters to titles, year-after-year. IMHO, he is the GOAT basketball coach of all-time. But what Pop has done in his NBA career, and particularly the last few seasons (and without superstars in those years), has been amazing.

His team is winning by record margins, and with D-Leaguers on the floor in many of them.

[swagga]

I grew up watching Wooden taking all kinds of different rosters to titles, year-after-year. IMHO, he is the GOAT basketball coach of all-time. But what Pop has done in his NBA career, and particularly the last few seasons (and without superstars in those years), has been amazing.

His team is winning by record margins, and with D-Leaguers on the floor in many of them.

totally agree, watched every spurs game and he is just destroying the other teams, always going for the weak link, not relying to much on anybody. True team basketball. Nothing but respect for the spurs :applause:
To the surprise of the stans, they'll also beat the warriors if they match up in the PO.

[Pointguard]

Watching the game last night, and the Spurs playing their d-league players for much of the game, wiped out the Suns.

I am beginning to think that Popovich could guide a WNBA team to an NBA title. This year may be the GOAT coaching performance.
Yeah Pop is top level stuff. As Swagga said I doubt it will get noticed here. I said the same thing earlier this year - he doesn't get enough credit. I'm thinking he will sweep til he gets to GSW and he will out coach Kerr. How he deciphers GSW will be one of the most interesting chess matches ever in the sport.

[LAZERUSS]

Yeah Pop is top level stuff. As Swagga said I doubt it will get noticed here. I said the same thing earlier this year - he doesn't get enough credit. I'm thinking he will sweep til he gets to GSW and he will out coach Kerr. How he deciphers GSW will be one of the most interesting chess matches ever in the sport.

He will probably rest Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili for full games in that series, too.

Honestly...I have never seen anything like what he is accomplishing this season in all my years of following the sport. He takes D-Leaguers, and rejects, and they dominate teams with all-stars.

[Odinn]

I don't know why people trying to diminish how good P-Jax and Riley were.

Sure, what Pop's been doing since 2012 is amazing. But remember people. P-Jax had a contending team 16 times. He went to the finals 13 times while winning 11 of them. Pop and Riley don't come close to these numbers in terms of success ratio. And Riley was coach of one of the greatest offensive teams(LAL), and also one the the greatest defensive teams(NYK). It wasn't like he was just using one system to get the win.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Every season.

Look at tim Duncan.

If Pop coached Wilt he would play till he was 80

on a serious note, I friggin love Pop

[LAZERUSS]

Look at tim Duncan.

If Pop coached Wilt he would play till he was 80

on a serious note, I friggin love Pop

I used to hate him and the Spurs, but in the last few years I have grown to respect (hell, admire) him, and the Spurs organization.

BTW, he was such a class act with Craig Sager.

[La Frescobaldi]

He will probably rest Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili for full games in that series, too.

Honestly...I have never seen anything like what he is accomplishing this season in all my years of following the sport. He takes D-Leaguers, and rejects, and they dominate teams with all-stars.

We can't call LaMarcus Aldridge, or David West rejects. Can't do that.

Nor is Kawhi, Manu and all those guys D-League.

I get what you are saying but to me that is going too far. He sprinkled a couple young guys in with elite or really really good players.

[StephHamann]

Watching the game last night, and the Spurs playing their d-league players for much of the game, wiped out the Suns.

I am beginning to think that Popovich could guide a WNBA team to an NBA title. This year may be the GOAT coaching performance.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/greg-popovich-thumbs-up.gif

[Harison]

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-43974-tim-duncan-spurs-white-walkers-lwaF.gif

That is all.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

I used to hate him and the Spurs, but in the last few years I have grown to respect (hell, admire) him, and the Spurs organization.

BTW, he was such a class act with Craig Sager.


This is a trend with me too.

This is basically what I thought of some players like Lebron and Wilt. Dont want to derail, but I feel like at some point, one should learn to stop hating on players just because they are better than a certain player's idol, and instead just appreciate greatness.

Its sad that there are people discrediting players like curry, or coaches like Pop.

[LAZERUSS]

We can't call LaMarcus Aldridge, or David West rejects. Can't do that.

Nor is Kawhi, Manu and all those guys D-League.

I get what you are saying but to me that is going too far. He sprinkled a couple young guys in with elite or really really good players.

I didn't mean to infer that the Spurs don't have talent. But, they are resting starters in games, and playing their core players around 30 mpg...and their subs are not missing a beat. Again, they are blowing teams out.

[BarberSchool]

Phil and pop are two different sides of the same winning @ss coin.

Phil is much more of a player's coach, pop is much more of a disciplinarian who will hold you accountable publicly.

But both are much brighter/smarter men than they should be, as basketball coaches. Each could have contributed way more to the world. Pop from the right, Phil from the left.

Joy watching both do their thing.

[julizaver]

Popovic is doing wonders with that Spurs roster - and he is among the best coaches ever. I am rated him slightly ahead of Rilley and even PJ as a coach, because Phil's and Rilley's team were full of stars, while Spurs played more like a team.

[rmt]

He will probably rest Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili for full games in that series, too.

Honestly...I have never seen anything like what he is accomplishing this season in all my years of following the sport. He takes D-Leaguers, and rejects, and they dominate teams with all-stars.

It's because they all buy into the UNSELFISH TEAM culture where everyone including the "stars" will pass the ball for a better shot and the focus is on getting better (shot, basketball, person as a whole).

[germanfellow]

pop and the spurs realized that a bad shot for an alltime-great like duncan might be a 42%-shot, while a wide open 3 for danny green (outside this year) is also a 42% shot - but from 3 with 50% more value.

[BuffaloBill]

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-43974-tim-duncan-spurs-white-walkers-lwaF.gif

That is all.


:bowdown:

[Dr Hawk]

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-43974-tim-duncan-spurs-white-walkers-lwaF.gif

That is all.

This gif scares me

[3ball]

nice gif pretty sick

[3ball]

pop and the spurs realized that a bad shot for an alltime-great like duncan might be a 42%-shot, while a wide open 3 for danny green (outside this year) is also a 42% shot - but from 3 with 50% more value.
true

[3ball]

Phil is much more of a player's coach, pop is much more of a disciplinarian who will hold you accountable publicly.

Joy watching both do their thing.


Except Popovich's Spurs are stacked compared to Phil's Bulls.

Just compare the rosters after MJ/Kawhi and Pippen/Aldridge - it isn't remotely close - Duncan/Parker/Manu destroy the Bulls next 3 guys, and Diaw/Green/West/Mills destroy the Bulls' stiffs after that.

The Bulls had far less talent, which is why their #1 option (MJ) had to score 10-15 ppg more than the Spurs' #1 option (Kawhi) with twice the assists and the same or better (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875185&postcount=49) defense.

[90sgoat]

The reason Pop can win with D-leaguers is because most of the league is not coached at all but players run the show and there are a lot of low iq players in the league in this era.

[dhsilv]

great coaches for superstars, but they'd get lesser results with that spurs roster.
but pop wouldn't work well with lebron & kobe. So there are always two sides of the coin.

This spurs team has likely 5 future hall of famers on it. You're telling me phil jackson couldn't make this team work? Really?

Oh it also has two or three rockstar level roll players who aren't making the hall but would be welcome additions on nearly every team ever.

[3ball]

The reason Pop can win with D-leaguers is because most of the league is not coached at all but players run the show and there are a lot of low iq players in the league in this era.
Except Popovich's Spurs don't have D-league players - for example, they're stacked compared to the 90's Bulls.

Just compare the rosters after MJ/Kawhi and Pippen/Aldridge - it isn't remotely close - Duncan/Parker/Manu destroy the Bulls next 3 guys, and Diaw/Green/West/Mills destroy the Bulls' stiffs after that.

None of the NINE Spurs just mentioned are D-league players - so you're spouting poppycock.

The Bulls had far less talent, which is why their #1 option (MJ) had to score 10-15 ppg more than the Spurs' #1 option (Kawhi) with twice the assists and the same or better (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875185&postcount=49) defense.

[90sgoat]

Except Popovich's Spurs don't have D-league players - for example, they're stacked compared to the 90's Bulls.

Just compare the rosters after MJ/Kawhi and Pippen/Aldridge - it isn't remotely close - Duncan/Parker/Manu destroy the Bulls next 3 guys, and Diaw/Green/West/Mills destroy the Bulls' stiffs after that.

None of the NINE Spurs just mentioned are D-league players - so you're spouting poppycock.

The Bulls had far less talent, which is why their #1 option (MJ) had to score 10-15 ppg more than the Spurs' #1 option (Kawhi) with twice the assists and the same or better (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875185&postcount=49) defense.

Lol take it easy there.

Spurs definitely have much better role players than Bulls, but the fact that a team like Atlanta with subpar players can be a 60 win team just shows how poorly coached the league as a whole is.

[3ball]

Lol take it easy there.

Spurs definitely have much better role players than Bulls, but the fact that a team like Atlanta with subpar players can be a 60 win team just shows how poorly coached the league as a whole is.
I agree with you - the league is extremely poorly coached..

and guys have no fundamentals... poor midrange efficiency, no post game or triple-threat game - it's all off-the-dribble.

look at the #1 high school player in the country - Josh Jackson - this guy needs a ton of work.. he's only good in transition with a full head of steam.. he's garbage from stationary position, which is what you need to be a great player against tight D.

imo, this is a product of a watered down game - spacing, screen-roll, drive-and-kick, rinse-repeat - this leads to poor fundamentals

[LAZERUSS]

Except Popovich's Spurs don't have D-league players - for example, they're stacked compared to the 90's Bulls.

Just compare the rosters after MJ/Kawhi and Pippen/Aldridge - it isn't remotely close - Duncan/Parker/Manu destroy the Bulls next 3 guys, and Diaw/Green/West/Mills destroy the Bulls' stiffs after that.

None of the NINE Spurs just mentioned are D-league players - so you're spouting poppycock.

The Bulls had far less talent, which is why their #1 option (MJ) had to score 10-15 ppg more than the Spurs' #1 option (Kawhi) with twice the assists and the same or better (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875185&postcount=49) defense.

Using your logic, then this year's Spurs are FAR more talented than the REST of the teams in the 90's, as well. I always find it laughable that Hakeem won a title with a bunch of role players, and did so in beating Ewing's Knicks, and a bunch of pathetic role players. The REALITY was, Shaq's Magic and Laker teams in the 90's were considerably less talented than any of MJ's teams. The '96 Sonics and the '97 and '98 Jazz were POS teams...pure-and-simple. Had any of the best teams of the 90's had to play against the best teams of the 80's, they were have been swept...with the possible exception of the stacked '96 Bulls. Jordan's Bulls never once beat even a remotely great team. They beat a washed up Piston team with a washed up Thomas in one series, and a washed up Laker team with a declining Magic, and a crippled and washed up Worthy who didn't even play the entire series. Those two teams were just SHELLS of their best teams.

[3ball]

Using your logic, then this year's Spurs are FAR more talented than the REST of the teams in the 90's, as well.


By my logic?... My logic says the Bulls had one of the worst supporting casts in the league after MJ and Scottie.

So it's no surprise that their roster pales in comparison to the Spurs top-to-bottom - it's not even close.

After MJ/Kawhi and Pippen/Aldridge, it's a joke - Duncan/Parker/Manu destroy the Bulls next 3 guys, and Diaw/Green/West/Mills destroy the Bulls' stiffs after that.

The Bulls had far less talent, which is why their #1 option (MJ) had to score 10-15 ppg more than the Spurs' #1 option (Kawhi) with twice the assists and the same or better (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875185&postcount=49) defense.. 2+2 = 4 bud.. the stats don't lie

[LAZERUSS]

By my logic?... My logic says the Bulls had one of the worst supporting casts in the league after MJ and Scottie.

So it's no surprise that their roster pales in comparison to the Spurs top-to-bottom - it's not even close.

After MJ/Kawhi and Pippen/Aldridge, it's a joke - Duncan/Parker/Manu destroy the Bulls next 3 guys, and Diaw/Green/West/Mills destroy the Bulls' stiffs after that.

The Bulls had far less talent, which is why their #1 option (MJ) had to score 10-15 ppg more than the Spurs' #1 option (Kawhi) with twice the assists and the same or better (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875185&postcount=49) defense.... 2+2 = 4 bud... the stats don't lie

So, using your logic, MJ and his Bulls would get blown out by Pop's Spurs with three ancient stars who are way past their primes, and a Kawhi, LMA, and West.

Speaks volumes about his rings then. He won them in a watered down era, with weak title contending teams. And we know that he had a losing playoff record in the 80's..which speaks volumes about that decade. Historically great teams led by the likes of a peak Magic, peak Bird, a peak Moses, and a peak Thomas. Magic and Bird were able to win multiple titles in a decade of the most talented rosters in NBA history, while Jordan padded his scoring stats on losers and as playoff cannon-fodder. It wasn't until Jordan had rosters that could win 55+ games and seriously challenge for a title WITHOUT him, and in leagues of POS teams, that MJ finally was able to win his rings.

[3ball]

So, using your logic, MJ and his Bulls would get blown out by Pop's Spurs with three ancient stars who are way their primes, and a Kawhi, LMA, and West.


No, because the Bulls' deficit at the #3 thru #12 spots was offset by Jordan averaging 10-15 ppg more than Kawhi, with twice the assists and the same or better (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875185&postcount=49) defense.

I mentioned this in my post ALREADY - but you're an immature, autistic fool, so you simply ignore the facts and state your own poppycock falsehoods instead.





It wasn't until Jordan had rosters that could seriously challenge for a title WITHOUT him


The Bulls were a 2nd Round team without Jordan, and were one play away from being down 0-3 on the brink of being swept (Kukoc's walk-off miracle in Game 3 saved them).

A 2nd Round team is nowhere near "seriously challenge for a title"...

You're literally the only person on earth who says this.

If you want to start posting your overly-long, played-out, falsehoods and bullshit, I have my copy pastes ready to go, since I've thoroughly destroyed all your nonsense for 3 straight threads now (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=395898&page=5)... more and more severely each time.





It wasn't until Jordan had rosters that could win 55+ games WITHOUT him


That's nothing - they were 3-peat champions with 3-peat know-how and execution on both sides of the ball..

If the Spurs had won the championship in 2013, 2014 and 2015, they could win 55 this year quite easily without Kawhi (or Duncan), even though many guys are past their prime... Imagine if everyone WAS in their prime.

Ditto on the Warriors - if they won the championship in this year and next year to achieve a 3-peat, they would win 55 easily in 2018 if Curry retired.

But ultimately, the regular season is exhibition season compared to the playoffs - so the Warriors/Spurs would still lose in the playoffs, probably the 2nd Round, just like the Bulls did.

The Bulls were an ordinary 2nd Round team without Jordan, and a 3-peat dynasty with him - those are the facts.. If we wanted to verify Jordan's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, we'd ask him to comeback and 3-peat again, while winning MVP's the whole way.... Done and Done.

[dhsilv]

We can't call LaMarcus Aldridge, or David West rejects. Can't do that.

Nor is Kawhi, Manu and all those guys D-League.

I get what you are saying but to me that is going too far. He sprinkled a couple young guys in with elite or really really good players.

I'm just lost about this d league stuff if we're talking this year.

Diaw first rounder
Parker First round
Duncan Lottery
Kawahi (first round, I think he was 1-2 spots past lottery)
Aldridge Lottery
Kyle Anderson (barely plays) was first round.
Bonner first round
David West first round

So you have Manu, Green, and Mills who were second round guys. Manu is no reject anywhere ever.

So we have TWO guys on that team who you can say came up I guess.

Green did play in the D league.
Mills also played in the D league.

Both guys also happen to have great shots and the SPURS organization is great at developing shooting. That isn't on Pop though.

Don't get me wrong he's a heck of a coach and he's really been getting better as the years go by, but this isn't magical. The Spurs were supposed to be this good if healthy.

[dhsilv]

The reason Pop can win with D-leaguers is because most of the league is not coached at all but players run the show and there are a lot of low iq players in the league in this era.

This is fair to a degree. The league in the late 90's was void of talent or general athletic ability on the benches by today's standards. The general basketball skill was WAY down, but you did have well coached teams.

[houston]

Pop alright great players make great coaches

[GOBB]

Great coach but you put him on the Sixers at seasons start and they aren't much better.

[3ball]

This is fair to a degree. The league in the late 90's was void of talent or general athletic ability on the benches by today's standards. The general basketball skill was WAY down, but you did have well coached teams.

You're just making stuff up - as the previous posts show, the Spurs don't have a team of D-league players, and 90'sgoat acknowledged his error:





Lol take it easy there.

Spurs definitely have much better role players than Bulls, but the fact that a team like Atlanta with subpar players can be a 60 win team just shows how poorly coached the league as a whole is.


So again - Popovich's Spurs don't have D-league players - for example, they're stacked compared to the 90's Bulls.

Just compare the rosters after MJ/Kawhi and Pippen/Aldridge - it isn't remotely close - Duncan/Parker/Manu destroy the Bulls next 3 guys, and Diaw/Green/West/Mills destroy the Bulls' stiffs after that.

Obviously, none of the NINE Spurs just mentioned are D-league players - they represent a stacked team.

The Bulls had far less talent, which is why their #1 option (MJ) had to score 10-15 ppg more than the Spurs' #1 option (Kawhi) with twice the assists and the same or better (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875185&postcount=49) defense.

[imnew09]

Popovic is doing wonders with that Spurs roster - and he is among the best coaches ever. I am rated him slightly ahead of Rilley and even PJ as a coach, because Phil's and Rilley's team were full of stars, while Spurs played more like a team.


Lol @ Phils team is always full of stars...:facepalm not discrediting Pop but Phils won back to back something Pop never did with Kobe and Pau the only 2 stars

Phils triangle made D Fish an starter, enough said

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

Eh Pop has only been Pop in terms of team development and turning subpar players into good players only for a few years now.

The System used to be give the duncan the ball and gtfo.

He is great but he and Duncan are a bit overrated.

[Lebronxrings]

pop is the greatest coach ever. I think you could get a team full of ish posters and we might be able to beat the 76ers with pop coaching. Seriously, this guy elevates every player on his team x100.

[LAZERUSS]

No, because the Bulls' deficit at the #3 thru #12 spots was offset by Jordan averaging 10-15 ppg more than Kawhi, with twice the assists and the same or better (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875185&postcount=49) defense.

I mentioned this in my post ALREADY - but you're an immature, autistic fool, so you simply ignore the facts and state your own poppycock falsehoods instead.



The Bulls were a 2nd Round team without Jordan, and were one play away from being down 0-3 on the brink of being swept (Kukoc's walk-off miracle in Game 3 saved them).

A 2nd Round team is nowhere near "seriously challenge for a title"...

You're literally the only person on earth who says this.

If you want to start posting your overly-long, played-out, falsehoods and bullshit, I have my copy pastes ready to go, since I've thoroughly destroyed all your nonsense for 3 straight threads now (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=395898&page=5)... more and more severely each time.



That's nothing - they were 3-peat champions with 3-peat know-how and execution on both sides of the ball..

If the Spurs had won the championship in 2013, 2014 and 2015, they could win 55 this year quite easily without Kawhi (or Duncan), even though many guys are past their prime... Imagine if everyone WAS in their prime.

Ditto on the Warriors - if they won the championship in this year and next year to achieve a 3-peat, they would win 55 easily in 2018 if Curry retired.

But ultimately, the regular season is exhibition season compared to the playoffs - so the Warriors/Spurs would still lose in the playoffs, probably the 2nd Round, just like the Bulls did.

The Bulls were an ordinary 2nd Round team without Jordan, and a 3-peat dynasty with him - those are the facts.. If we wanted to verify Jordan's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, we'd ask him to comeback and 3-peat again, while winning MVP's the whole way.... Done and Done.

REALITY.

You haven't destroyed anything you pathetic POS. I just hate to waste my time constantly blowing up your falsehoods.

But, here we go again. MJ couldn't win shit until Pippen and Grant showed up. Those two showed HIM how to win, as they would do long after him, as well. Born winners, both of them.

And, Jordan still couldn't win shit until those two ELEVATED their games in the '91 post-season against the Pistons and Lakers, both of whom were just complete SHELLS. The Pistons dropped from a 59 win team that had romped to a title the year before...to a 50-32 injury-plagued team with a Thomas who was not only worthless in this post-season, but would be the very next post-season. They went the limit against a 43 win team in the first round, and struggled in the second round. With Pippen easily the second best player in the ECF;'s, and with Grant just PUMMELING Rodman, the Bulls swept a crumbling Piston team that would barely be a .500 team the next year, and a losing team the year after that.

Then, with Pippen being the third best player in the Finals, and with Grant hanging his typical unfathomable domination of a worthless Perkins...and with a fading magic, nowhere near the mid-80's Magic who was FAR more dominant against the '87 Celtics, in both the regular season, and post-season, than a peak scoring MJ had been...and with a crippled Worthy on the downside of his career, and in fact, basically done by this point (and a shell after Magic retired following this season)...they beat a crumbling Laker team that would be a .500 team without Magic (and yet the Bulls were .667 without MJ.)

The '94 season is all we need to know. Here were the Bulls, scrambling to replace MJ with PETE MYERS (who would average 6 ppg in the ECSF's)...going 55-27. Which was amazing in itself, BUT, Pippen and Grant missed a WHOPPING 22 combined games. This was EASILY a 60+ win team. Hell, put Joe Dumars on this team in place of MYERS, and they would have 65-70!

Then, in the ECSF's, they were ONE PLAY away from winning game five in NY, and with their easy win in game six, they would have played a Pacers team that they had waxed 4-1 during the regular season. This was CLEARLY no "ordinary" second round team. Hell, had Pippen and Grant not missed a MASSIVE number of games, they would have won 60+, and had HCA. Which would have been HUGE. They went 3-0 against the 56-26 Knicks in the ECSF's on their home court. With HCA, an easy series win. And again, they had wiped out the Pacers in the regular season, so that was a given in the ECF's.

So, they would have faced the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals. The same Rockets team that barely beat those 56-26 Knicks in a game seven (and were outscored in the series.) With HCA, a likely Bulls title.


BUT, it gets even worse for the Jordanites. Grant jumped ship to the Magic, where he IMMEDIATELY improved that team, from 50-32 to 57-25 (and then 60-22 the next year.) Meanwhile, Pippen was now single-handedly carrying a bunch of quality role players, to a 34-31 record (and an 8-2 record in their last ten games BTW.) All of this without BOTH Jordan and Grant.

Think about that...MJ never had a winning record without Pippen and an ELITE PF (Grant/Rodman.) And yet Pippen was single-handedly carrying this team on a 43-44 win pace.

So, MJ realized that he could steal a ring, so he suddenly came back. Rusty? :roll: :roll: :roll: The man hung a 55 point game in his FIFTH game back. If anything, he was the healthiest, and most refreshed player in the entire NBA.

With Jordan, the Bulls went 13-4...a 62 win pace...or the best record in the league...which should have made them a prohibitive favorite in the post-season. However, don't get too excited about that 13-4 record. Keep in mind that with Grant the year before, the Bulls went 48-22, or a 12-5 pace in those 17 games.

Ok, with Jordan playing well in the playoffs, and in fact, just as well as he had in his '93 post-season run, the Bulls STILL lost in the ECSF's, 4-2, to a team that would get SWEPT by a 47-35 team in the Finals.

There was simply NO comparison between the play of the '94 and '95 Bulls in the post-season. The '94 team was an eyelash away from beating a team that would lose a game seven in the Finals by four points. The '95 team was easily beaten in the ECSF's, and in a series in which GRANT was the best player on the floor, by a team that would get SWEPT by a 47 win team in the Finals.

So, the Bulls ownership realized...hey, we have ZERO chance of winning another ring without an ELITE PF. Clearly, Jordan's impact was less than what Grant's had been the year before with the SAME roster.

So, they ADDED HOFer Rodman, who was just a beast defensively, and a three-time rebound champ. He wasn't the efficient scorer that Grant had been, but then again, there wasn't anyone else in the league that was, either. BTW, Grant was leading the league AND post-season in ORtgs multiple times in the 90's, CLEARLY this man was an ELITE player whose contributions far exceeded his 14-10 playoff runs. Rodman was no Grant offensively, but, he was just as dominant defensively, and would be from '96 thru '98. An even swap.

Now, the Bulls had Rodman replacing Grant, on a 55+ win roster...and then added JORDAN. Damn!

Of course, the rest was history. In a watered down league, with very few teams having even two good-to-great players, and most with only one...the Bulls won three more titles.

And they were able to win them with Jordan shooting .455, .427, and even .415 in those Finals (including a horrific 5-19 in a clinching win.) And had Karl put Payton on Jordan in game one, instead of game four, who knows if they would have even won that series, despite being an overwhelming favorite? Payton completely shut MJ down in the last three games.

And before Goofball tries to deny it...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2014/08/21/how-putting-gary-payton-on-michael-jordan-sooner-could-have-changed-the-1996-nba-finals/


Not to pick at old scab, Seattle residents, but you have to wonder how Seattle would’ve fared had Payton defended Jordan the entire series. Just look at Jordan’s numbers:

First three games: 31 points, 46 fg%, 50 3fg%, 12.3 FTA.
Last three games: 23.7 points, 36.7 fg%, 11.1 3fg% 10 FTA.

Oh, and here is the footage...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-9ezKk1arA

In any case, the Sonics had Payton, and a bunch of role players. And the Jazz from '97 and '98 were a lousy defensive team that had Malone-Stockton, and nothing else. The Bulls had FAR more talent.

BTW, there were articles claiming that Pippen deserved the '98 FMVP, and that Rodman deserved the '96 FMVP.

All of which suggests that MJ had the most STACKED rosters in the watered down 90's. Where Hakeem and a bunch of role players were winning a title by beating Ewing and a bunch of scrubs.

I have said it before, we saw what the Bulls were without MJ. They were a 55+ win team that challenged for a title. NOW, remove the best player from EVERY OTHER team in that decade, and how many titles do the Bulls win without MJ. Keep in mind that none of the other teams in the 90's had much talent, either. And then remove Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Payton, Drexler, Barkley, and K Malone, et al...and how many titles do the Bulls win? Likely an easy six, and maybe more.

Go head an throw in crappy copy-and-paste replies, none of which refutes any of the above.

[90sgoat]

In any case, the Sonics had Payton, and a bunch of role players.

Sonics 95-96:

Kemp: 20-11-2-1-2 on 56%
Schrempf: 17-5-5 on 49%
Hawkins: 16-4-3-2 on 49% (39% 3pt)

You don't know crap, that Sonics team ranks among the best defensive teams of all time.

Kemp finished 8th in MVP votes, Payton finished 6th.

You calling Kemp 'role player' shows how little you know.

[LAZERUSS]

Sonics 95-96:

Kemp: 20-11-2-1-2 on 56%
Schrempf: 17-5-5 on 49%
Hawkins: 16-4-3-2 on 49% (39% 3pt)

You don't know crap, that Sonics team ranks among the best defensive teams of all time.

Kemp finished 8th in MVP votes, Payton finished 6th.

You calling Kemp 'role player' shows how little you know.

And MJ's crappy roster...

HOFers Pippen and Rodman. The best shooter in the league in Kerr. A relentless defender in Harper. And center-by-committee.
AND, because of players like Pippen, Rodman, and Harper (as well as MJ), the Bulls had the BEST defense in the league.

If MJ's supporting cast were crap, then Payton's were complete shit.

Now go on to something you actually know about.

[3ball]

Let's replace PETE MYERS, who wasn't even a Top-20 SG in '94, with even an average SG. Likely a title. But how about replacing him with Reggie Miller, or Joe Dumars, or Mitch Richmond. Does anyone here honestly believe that one of those guys would NOT have made a HUGE difference?


None of those guys would've allowed the Bulls to beat the Knicks, Pacers, and Rockets in 1994... None of those guys have the impact to improve a team by 3 series wins.

And even if you want to hypothesize about someone like Kobe replacing Jordan - it's a pointless exercise because Kobe couldn't achieve the stats MJ needed to 3-peat in the first place (35/7/7/50).. Kobe's 25/5/5/45 wouldn't cut it, so he wouldn't be in 4-peat position by 1994.

So it's pointless to imagine what other players would do with Jordan's already-made championship teams, since no one can achieve the stats MJ needed to win those championships in the first place.

Btw, if you think Dumars and 15-18 ppg would've won the championship for the Bulls in 1994, then Jordan would've won the 2007 Finals EASILY, since he would've averaged 30+ vs. Spurs.. See how biased you are??.. You're eager to use that logic to say the 94' Bulls could've won 3 additional series, but won't apply the same logic to say Jordan would've won 1 series.... (which btw, he would have (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11989539&postcount=140)).





6. 1996. Chicago management took one look at the disappointing '95 season and realized...hey, we can't win without an ELITE PF.


This is factually incorrect - if a power forward isn't an all-star OR all-defense, then they aren't elite.. MJ won all 6 rings without an all-star PF, and 4 of the 6 years he didn't have an all-defense PF.

Horace Grant was never an all-star alongside Jordan, nor was he all-defense, except 2nd team in 1993... So MJ's first 3-peat was won without an all-star or all-defense caliber PF..

In Grant's best years alongside MJ (1991-1993), he only averaged 13/9 in regular season and 11/8 in playoffs.. He was an ordinary, 11/8 play-finisher and simple dunker.. He never garnered an iota of defensive attention and no one thought for a nanosecond to let him create his own shot.. Literally half the league's 3rd options were better than him.. Compare him to fellow play-finisher and statistical peer, Tristan Thompson.





So, they went out and grabbed HOFer Dennis Rodman.


As for Rodman - during his time on the Bulls, he was 34-36 years old and he wasn't an all-star either (he hadn't made an all-star team since 1992) - nor did Rodman make the all-defense team in 1997 or 1998.. So similar to the first 3-peat, MJ won his second 3-peat without an all-star or all-defense caliber PF as well.

Rodman only averaged 4/8 in the 1997 playoffs and 1998 Finals.. He wasn't even a starter in the 1998 playoffs or Finals - Phil benched him for bad play... Rodman's last good year was 1996 - by 1997 and 1998, he was the same washed-up garbage he was for the 1999 Lakers, but no one noticed because the Bulls were 3-peating.





So next time some idiot claims that Jordan didn't have a TON of help. Just have them read the above. His supporting casts were easily capable of winning 55+ games, and even challenging for a title...withOUT him.


The Bulls lost in the 2nd Round in 1994, and were a Kukoc walk-off from being down 0-3... They were nowhere NEAR challenging for a championship..

Also, you aren't aware of how the Bulls team was constructed, and how little talent they had top to bottom.. It was very unique.

As shown previously, the 1993 supporting cast only had 3 guys (Pippen/Grant/Armstrong) that played more than 20 mpg and averaged more than 6 ppg - the #4 thru #12 guys all played LESS than 20 mpg and had less than 6 ppg.. There isn't a single team in the league where the #4 thru #12 players were anywhere near this bad.. The Bulls essentially relied on a mix of interchangeable stiffs who barely played and barely scored for the #4 thru #12 spots.

So don't overrate their talent - that isn't why they achieved the 2nd Round.. They made the 2nd Round because of the 3-peat caliber of chemistry and execution accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.. MJ had to lead them to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him.. Those are the facts.

[LAZERUSS]

:lebronamazed: :whatever:

This post alone ruins your credibility - there isn't a single person that think Pippen and Grant SHOWED MJ how to win.

Regarding the Bulls' improvement in 1988 - Rookie Pippen averaged 7.9 ppg in 20 minutes, while Grant averaged 8/6 in 22 minutes.. They had little to do with the Bulls' improvement.

The real improvement was Jordan - he added GOAT defense to his league-leading scoring by garnering DPOY, and also league MVP.

Obviously, it was Jordan's growth into the GOAT two-way wing player that made the Bulls better.



Those are great stats, especially for Jordan's 4th worst playoff series ever and facing the Jordan Rules for the first time.

The reason the 1988 Bulls lost to the Bad Boys was because Jordan had no help - rookie Pippen averaged 10/5 for the series and rookie Grant only 11/6... That's garbage help.



More lies - Pippen was horrific in 1989 playoffs, especially the ECF - and that's why the Bulls lost.

He averaged 9/7 on 40% vs. Pistons, which was a massive decline from his 14/6 on 48% in RS.



Jordan's stats were great, despite facing the Jordan Rules..

Again, Pippen's horrific play was the reason for the Bulls losing in 1989 playoffs - he averaged 9/7 on 40% vs. Pistons... That was a big decline from 14/6/4 on 48% in RS.



I don't blame Pippen for his 2 points and 1-10 in Game 7 - PIPPEN HIMSELF DOES:


"It was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s


Pippen's epic choke cost the Bulls the 1990 championship - the Pistons only needed 6 easy games to beat Portland, but needed 7 tight games and the Pippen choke to beat Bulls.. The gap between Pistons/Blazers ORtg was much larger than the razor thin gap between Pistons/Bulls.



CONTINUED......
.


LOL.

Haven't refuted one single point of mine. But, please continue. When you are done, I will repost my original, which blows away every point you try to make.

[3ball]

Jordan was the KEY player in his six title runs. Only a complete idiot would claim otherwise. But, as you stated...he had a TON of help along the way.


There - you just said MJ's the goat - no one in history was the key player on that many title runs.

you're done.. take this L





A Jordan in his highest scoring season, was swept in the first round. An MJ with two relatively green, but very good players in Pippen and Grant...were blown out in the second round in a season in which MJ averaged 35 ppg on a .535 FG%. And with green starters, his Bulls were beaten 4-2 in the ECF's in a season in which he averaged 33-8-8 .538.


Pippen and Grant were not good players as rookies in 1988 - you're telling outright lies here, as usual.

Rookie Pippen averaged 7.9 ppg in 20 minutes, while Grant averaged 8/6 in 22 minutes.. Those numbers are easily replaceable - they had little to do with the Bulls win totals that year.

The real key in 1988 was JORDAN'S IMPROVEMENT - he added GOAT defense to his league-leading scoring by garnering DPOY, and also league MVP.

Obviously, it was Jordan's growth into the GOAT two-way player and league MVP that made the Bulls better.





So, what happened in '90, when Pippen and Grant became stars?


Grant was never a star - during his best years alongside Jordan (1991-1993), he averaged 13/9 in regular season and 11/8 in playoffs..

He was an ordinary, 11/8 play-finisher and a simple dunker.. He was never an all-star and only made ONE 2nd team all-defense while on the Bulls..

He never garnered an iota of defensive attention and no one thought for a nanosecond to let him create his own shot.. Half the league's 3rd options were better than him - we can go through and list them player for player and stat-for-stat - it's not even close - Grant was as ordinary as they come.





Jordan needed a dominating, elite PF to win


This is factually incorrect - if a power forward isn't an all-star OR all-defense, then they aren't elite.. MJ won all 6 rings without an all-star PF, and 4 of the 6 years he didn't have an all-defense PF.

Grant's ordinary play and stats were described above - compare him to fellow play-finisher and statistical peer, Tristan Thompson.

As for Rodman - during his time on the Bulls, he was 34-36 years old and he wasn't an all-star either (he hadn't made an all-star team since 1992) - nor did Rodman make the all-defense team in 1997 or 1998.. So similar to the first 3-peat, MJ won his second 3-peat without an all-star or all-defense caliber PF as well.

Rodman only averaged 4/8 in the 1997 playoffs and 1998 Finals.. He wasn't even a starter in the 1998 playoffs or Finals - Phil benched him for bad play... Rodman's last good year was 1996 - by 1997 and 1998, he was the same washed-up garbage he was for the 1999 Lakers, but no one noticed because the Bulls were 3-peating.





So, what happened in '90, when Pippen became a star? Then from '91 thru '93? Clearly, it was NOT Jordan ELEVATING his play. It was because his supporting casts were elevating THEIR's.


More lies - no player in history elevated his play more than Jordan did in 1991-1993 playoffs and Finals - the stats prove it:

Jordan averaged 34/6/7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game) during 1991-1993 playoffs, which was better than his RS averages of 31/6/6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game)...

In the Finals, he elevated his play even more - he averaged 36/7/8 in 1991-1993 Finals.. And we all remember his destruction of top 5 player Magic Johnson in 1991 Finals..... the famous shrug and record 6 threes in 1992 Finals.... and his record 41/9/6 on 51% in 1993 Finals.

No one in history ever played anywhere NEAR this well while winning championships.. So stfu with your blatant lies about MJ didn't elevate his game - you couldn't be more wrong.

Furthermore, Jordan also averaged at least 10 ppg more than Pippen in every playoff series of their careers (except two when MJ averaged 7 ppg and 5 ppg more) - no one in history did so much more than their 2nd option.





They were good enough to go 55-27 without him in regular season.


That's nothing - they were 3-peat champions with 3-peat strategy, know-how and execution on both sides of the ball.. Imagine if the Warriors win the ring the next two years, giving them a 3-peat - if Curry retires in 2018, the Warriors easily win 55.

But ultimately, the regular season is exhibition season compared to the playoffs - so the Warriors would still lose in the playoffs, probably the 2nd Round, just like the Bulls did.

The Bulls were an ordinary 2nd Round team without Jordan, and a 3-peat dynasty with him - those are the facts.. If we wanted to verify Jordan's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, we'd ask him to comeback and 3-peat again, while winning MVP's the whole way.... Done and Done.





he had a TON of help along the way.


The list below shows every Bulls player that played more than 10 mpg in 1993 (excluding MJ) - this was MJ's supporting cast in 1993:


.....................PPG.......MPG

Pippen............18.6...... 38.6
Grant.............13.2....... 35.6
Armstrong.......12.3.......30.4
Cartwright........5.6....... 19.9
S Williams........5.9........19.3
Paxson............ 4.2........17.5
R McCray......... 3.5........15.9
S King............. 5.4....... 13.9
W Perdue......... 4.7........13.9
T Tucker.......... 5.2........13.2
D Walker......... 2.6........13.1


The 1993 supporting cast only had 3 guys (Pippen/Grant/Armstrong) that played more than 20 mpg and averaged more than 6 ppg - the #4 thru #12 guys all played LESS than 20 mpg and averaged less than 6 ppg..

The Bulls relied on a mix of interchangeable stiffs who barely played and barely scored for the #4 thru #12 spots.. There isn't a single team in the league where the #4 thru #12 players are anywhere near this bad.





If he didn't need a TON of help...what happened from '85 thru '87? And without his best players playing extremely well, what happened from '88 thru '90?


Jordan had less help than anyone he's compared to - Horace Grant was worse than half the league's 3rd options...

And Jordan's #4 thru #12 guys were literally the worst in the league (shown above).

So those are the facts.... Take this L (again)

Btw, during Jordan's 2nd three-peat (1996-1998), Pippen's playoff averages were 17/7/5 on 40%... That's a HORRIBLE 2nd option... Pippen was not a top ten 2nd option during 2nd three-peat.

[LAZERUSS]

Take this L idiot...

[QUOTE]REALITY.

You haven't destroyed anything you pathetic POS. I just hate to waste my time constantly blowing up your falsehoods.

But, here we go again. MJ couldn't win shit until Pippen and Grant showed up. Those two showed HIM how to win, as they would do long after him, as well. Born winners, both of them.

And, Jordan still couldn't win shit until those two ELEVATED their games in the '91 post-season against the Pistons and Lakers, both of whom were just complete SHELLS. The Pistons dropped from a 59 win team that had romped to a title the year before...to a 50-32 injury-plagued team with a Thomas who was not only worthless in this post-season, but would be the very next post-season. They went the limit against a 43 win team in the first round, and struggled in the second round. With Pippen easily the second best player in the ECF;'s, and with Grant just PUMMELING Rodman, the Bulls swept a crumbling Piston team that would barely be a .500 team the next year, and a losing team the year after that.

Then, with Pippen being the third best player in the Finals, and with Grant hanging his typical unfathomable domination of a worthless Perkins...and with a fading magic, nowhere near the mid-80's Magic who was FAR more dominant against the '87 Celtics, in both the regular season, and post-season, than a peak scoring MJ had been...and with a crippled Worthy on the downside of his career, and in fact, basically done by this point (and a shell after Magic retired following this season)...they beat a crumbling Laker team that would be a .500 team without Magic (and yet the Bulls were .667 without MJ.)

The '94 season is all we need to know. Here were the Bulls, scrambling to replace MJ with PETE MYERS (who would average 6 ppg in the ECSF's)...going 55-27. Which was amazing in itself, BUT, Pippen and Grant missed a WHOPPING 22 combined games. This was EASILY a 60+ win team. Hell, put Joe Dumars on this team in place of MYERS, and they would have 65-70!

Then, in the ECSF's, they were ONE PLAY away from winning game five in NY, and with their easy win in game six, they would have played a Pacers team that they had waxed 4-1 during the regular season. This was CLEARLY no "ordinary" second round team. Hell, had Pippen and Grant not missed a MASSIVE number of games, they would have won 60+, and had HCA. Which would have been HUGE. They went 3-0 against the 56-26 Knicks in the ECSF's on their home court. With HCA, an easy series win. And again, they had wiped out the Pacers in the regular season, so that was a given in the ECF's.

So, they would have faced the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals. The same Rockets team that barely beat those 56-26 Knicks in a game seven (and were outscored in the series.) With HCA, a likely Bulls title.


BUT, it gets even worse for the Jordanites. Grant jumped ship to the Magic, where he IMMEDIATELY improved that team, from 50-32 to 57-25 (and then 60-22 the next year.) Meanwhile, Pippen was now single-handedly carrying a bunch of quality role players, to a 34-31 record (and an 8-2 record in their last ten games BTW.) All of this without BOTH Jordan and Grant.

Think about that...MJ never had a winning record without Pippen and an ELITE PF (Grant/Rodman.) And yet Pippen was single-handedly carrying this team on a 43-44 win pace.

So, MJ realized that he could steal a ring, so he suddenly came back. Rusty? The man hung a 55 point game in his FIFTH game back. If anything, he was the healthiest, and most refreshed player in the entire NBA.

With Jordan, the Bulls went 13-4...a 62 win pace...or the best record in the league...which should have made them a prohibitive favorite in the post-season. However, don't get too excited about that 13-4 record. Keep in mind that with Grant the year before, the Bulls went 48-22, or a 12-5 pace in those 17 games.

Ok, with Jordan playing well in the playoffs, and in fact, just as well as he had in his '93 post-season run, the Bulls STILL lost in the ECSF's, 4-2, to a team that would get SWEPT by a 47-35 team in the Finals.

There was simply NO comparison between the play of the '94 and '95 Bulls in the post-season. The '94 team was an eyelash away from beating a team that would lose a game seven in the Finals by four points. The '95 team was easily beaten in the ECSF's, and in a series in which GRANT was the best player on the floor, by a team that would get SWEPT by a 47 win team in the Finals.

So, the Bulls ownership realized...hey, we have ZERO chance of winning another ring without an ELITE PF. Clearly, Jordan's impact was less than what Grant's had been the year before with the SAME roster.

So, they ADDED HOFer Rodman, who was just a beast defensively, and a three-time rebound champ. He wasn't the efficient scorer that Grant had been, but then again, there wasn't anyone else in the league that was, either. BTW, Grant was leading the league AND post-season in ORtgs multiple times in the 90's, CLEARLY this man was an ELITE player whose contributions far exceeded his 14-10 playoff runs. Rodman was no Grant offensively, but, he was just as dominant defensively, and would be from '96 thru '98. An even swap.

Now, the Bulls had Rodman replacing Grant, on a 55+ win roster...and then added JORDAN. Damn!

Of course, the rest was history. In a watered down league, with very few teams having even two good-to-great players, and most with only one...the Bulls won three more titles.

And they were able to win them with Jordan shooting .455, .427, and even .415 in those Finals (including a horrific 5-19 in a clinching win.) And had Karl put Payton on Jordan in game one, instead of game four, who knows if they would have even won that series, despite being an overwhelming favorite? Payton completely shut MJ down in the last three games.

And before Goofball tries to deny it...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...96-nba-finals/

Quote:
Not to pick at old scab, Seattle residents, but you have to wonder how Seattle would

[3ball]

.
HORACE GRANT:


"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. I mean, would've had a decent career, but for a leader like that to lead you to 3 championships..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m44s



JERRY KRAUSE, Bulls GM:


“Would Pippen have been great someplace else?

Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him... No, Michael made him a man.

Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And he - Collins - had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death."

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558

[3ball]

Haven't refuted one single point of mine.


I refuted every single one.

And your main point is that Pippen and Grant showed MJ how to win - that's what you've repeatedly stated and that's your argument, which ruins your credibility.

[LAZERUSS]

I refuted every single one.

And your main point is that Pippen and Grant showed MJ how to win - that's what you've repeatedly stated and that's your argument, which ruins your credibility.

Jordan was a LOSER before Pippen and Grant. FACT. And while he was a loser both before and after them (and Rodman), both Grant and Pippen went on to have many winning seasons without him. Hell, Grant even won another ring without Jordan.

But,. let's play this again...

[QUOTE]REALITY.

You haven't destroyed anything you pathetic POS. I just hate to waste my time constantly blowing up your falsehoods.

But, here we go again. MJ couldn't win shit until Pippen and Grant showed up. Those two showed HIM how to win, as they would do long after him, as well. Born winners, both of them.

And, Jordan still couldn't win shit until those two ELEVATED their games in the '91 post-season against the Pistons and Lakers, both of whom were just complete SHELLS. The Pistons dropped from a 59 win team that had romped to a title the year before...to a 50-32 injury-plagued team with a Thomas who was not only worthless in this post-season, but would be the very next post-season. They went the limit against a 43 win team in the first round, and struggled in the second round. With Pippen easily the second best player in the ECF;'s, and with Grant just PUMMELING Rodman, the Bulls swept a crumbling Piston team that would barely be a .500 team the next year, and a losing team the year after that.

Then, with Pippen being the third best player in the Finals, and with Grant hanging his typical unfathomable domination of a worthless Perkins...and with a fading magic, nowhere near the mid-80's Magic who was FAR more dominant against the '87 Celtics, in both the regular season, and post-season, than a peak scoring MJ had been...and with a crippled Worthy on the downside of his career, and in fact, basically done by this point (and a shell after Magic retired following this season)...they beat a crumbling Laker team that would be a .500 team without Magic (and yet the Bulls were .667 without MJ.)

The '94 season is all we need to know. Here were the Bulls, scrambling to replace MJ with PETE MYERS (who would average 6 ppg in the ECSF's)...going 55-27. Which was amazing in itself, BUT, Pippen and Grant missed a WHOPPING 22 combined games. This was EASILY a 60+ win team. Hell, put Joe Dumars on this team in place of MYERS, and they would have 65-70!

Then, in the ECSF's, they were ONE PLAY away from winning game five in NY, and with their easy win in game six, they would have played a Pacers team that they had waxed 4-1 during the regular season. This was CLEARLY no "ordinary" second round team. Hell, had Pippen and Grant not missed a MASSIVE number of games, they would have won 60+, and had HCA. Which would have been HUGE. They went 3-0 against the 56-26 Knicks in the ECSF's on their home court. With HCA, an easy series win. And again, they had wiped out the Pacers in the regular season, so that was a given in the ECF's.

So, they would have faced the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals. The same Rockets team that barely beat those 56-26 Knicks in a game seven (and were outscored in the series.) With HCA, a likely Bulls title.


BUT, it gets even worse for the Jordanites. Grant jumped ship to the Magic, where he IMMEDIATELY improved that team, from 50-32 to 57-25 (and then 60-22 the next year.) Meanwhile, Pippen was now single-handedly carrying a bunch of quality role players, to a 34-31 record (and an 8-2 record in their last ten games BTW.) All of this without BOTH Jordan and Grant.

Think about that...MJ never had a winning record without Pippen and an ELITE PF (Grant/Rodman.) And yet Pippen was single-handedly carrying this team on a 43-44 win pace.

So, MJ realized that he could steal a ring, so he suddenly came back. Rusty? The man hung a 55 point game in his FIFTH game back. If anything, he was the healthiest, and most refreshed player in the entire NBA.

With Jordan, the Bulls went 13-4...a 62 win pace...or the best record in the league...which should have made them a prohibitive favorite in the post-season. However, don't get too excited about that 13-4 record. Keep in mind that with Grant the year before, the Bulls went 48-22, or a 12-5 pace in those 17 games.

Ok, with Jordan playing well in the playoffs, and in fact, just as well as he had in his '93 post-season run, the Bulls STILL lost in the ECSF's, 4-2, to a team that would get SWEPT by a 47-35 team in the Finals.

There was simply NO comparison between the play of the '94 and '95 Bulls in the post-season. The '94 team was an eyelash away from beating a team that would lose a game seven in the Finals by four points. The '95 team was easily beaten in the ECSF's, and in a series in which GRANT was the best player on the floor, by a team that would get SWEPT by a 47 win team in the Finals.

So, the Bulls ownership realized...hey, we have ZERO chance of winning another ring without an ELITE PF. Clearly, Jordan's impact was less than what Grant's had been the year before with the SAME roster.

So, they ADDED HOFer Rodman, who was just a beast defensively, and a three-time rebound champ. He wasn't the efficient scorer that Grant had been, but then again, there wasn't anyone else in the league that was, either. BTW, Grant was leading the league AND post-season in ORtgs multiple times in the 90's, CLEARLY this man was an ELITE player whose contributions far exceeded his 14-10 playoff runs. Rodman was no Grant offensively, but, he was just as dominant defensively, and would be from '96 thru '98. An even swap.

Now, the Bulls had Rodman replacing Grant, on a 55+ win roster...and then added JORDAN. Damn!

Of course, the rest was history. In a watered down league, with very few teams having even two good-to-great players, and most with only one...the Bulls won three more titles.

And they were able to win them with Jordan shooting .455, .427, and even .415 in those Finals (including a horrific 5-19 in a clinching win.) And had Karl put Payton on Jordan in game one, instead of game four, who knows if they would have even won that series, despite being an overwhelming favorite? Payton completely shut MJ down in the last three games.

And before Goofball tries to deny it...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...96-nba-finals/

Quote:
Not to pick at old scab, Seattle residents, but you have to wonder how Seattle would

[3ball]

The difference between the '86-87 Bulls, and the 50-32 '87-88 Bulls?

PIPPEN and GRANT IMMEDIATELY made the Bulls into a winning team in 1988 - THEY SHOWED MJ HOW TO WIN.


:lebronamazed: :whatever:

This post alone ruins your credibility - there isn't a single person that think Pippen and Grant SHOWED MJ how to win.

Regarding the Bulls' improvement in 1988 - Rookie Pippen averaged 7.9 ppg in 20 minutes, while Grant averaged 8/6 in 22 minutes.. They had little to do with the Bulls' improvement.

The real improvement was Jordan - he added GOAT defense to his league-leading scoring by garnering DPOY, and also league MVP.

Obviously, it was Jordan's growth into the GOAT two-way wing player that made the Bulls better.





However, in the 1988 ECSF's, the Bulls were crushed by the Bad Boys. Why? Because JORDAN's numbers fell off the CLIFF from his regular season stats. During the regular season, MJ had averaged 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%. Against the powerful Pistons... 27.4 ppg on a .491 FG%. A HUGE drop-off. BTW, Grant had his first of many highly efficient post-season series...hanging an 11-6 .600 series on the Bad Boys.


Those are great stats, especially for Jordan's 4th worst playoff series ever and facing the Jordan Rules for the first time.

The reason the 1988 Bulls lost to the Bad Boys was because Jordan had no help - rookie Pippen averaged 10/5 for the series and rookie Grant only 11/6... That's garbage help.





With Grant and Pippen, playing well, the Bulls made it to the 1989 ECF's, where, MJ ONCE AGAIN, and he ALWAYS would...DECLINE against the Bad Boys in the post-season. In fact, he QUIT on his team in a pivotal game five (the series was tied 2-2), and because of JORDAN, the Bulls lost that series, 4-2.


More lies - Pippen was horrific in 1989 playoffs, especially the ECF - and that's why the Bulls lost.

He averaged 9/7 on 40% vs. Pistons, which was a massive decline from his 14/6 on 48% in RS.





The difference between the '89 Bulls, who had gone 47-35, and the '90 Bulls, who would go 55-27? Certainly not Jordan. In '89 regular season, he had averaged 32.5 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 8.0 apg, and on a .538 FG%. In the '89 series against the Pistons...29.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 6.5 apg, and on a .460 FG%.


Jordan's stats were great, despite facing the Jordan Rules..

Again, Pippen's horrific play was the reason for the Bulls losing in 1989 playoffs - he averaged 9/7 on 40% vs. Pistons... That was a big decline from 14/6/4 on 48% in RS.





Then, in the post-season, Pippen became a star. 3Ball will blame PIPPEN and GRANT for losing game seven blowout loss against the Bad Boys in the '90 ECF's... However, had JORDAN not played like shit in game two (and awful 5-16 from the field...in a nine point loss, and in a game in which Grant and Pippen combined for 34 points on a combined .542 FG%...well, that series may not have come down to a game seven.


I don't blame Pippen for his 2 points and 1-10 in Game 7 - PIPPEN HIMSELF DOES:


"It was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s


Pippen's epic choke cost the Bulls the 1990 championship - the Pistons only needed 6 easy games to beat Portland, but needed 7 tight games and the Pippen choke to beat Bulls.. The gap between Pistons/Blazers ORtg was much larger than the razor thin gap between Pistons/Bulls.



CONTINUED......
.

[T_L_P]

I'm just lost about this d league stuff if we're talking this year.

Diaw first rounder
Parker First round
Duncan Lottery
Kawahi (first round, I think he was 1-2 spots past lottery)
Aldridge Lottery
Kyle Anderson (barely plays) was first round.
Bonner first round
David West first round

So you have Manu, Green, and Mills who were second round guys. Manu is no reject anywhere ever.

So we have TWO guys on that team who you can say came up I guess.

Green did play in the D league.
Mills also played in the D league.

Both guys also happen to have great shots and the SPURS organization is great at developing shooting. That isn't on Pop though.

Don't get me wrong he's a heck of a coach and he's really been getting better as the years go by, but this isn't magical. The Spurs were supposed to be this good if healthy.

Yeah, this sort of stuff annoys me, and it goes to show just how little the average NBA fan knows about the SA staff.

Ime Udoka is essentially the outside defensive specialist for the Spurs. Any defensive training that Green or Leonard go through is with him, and you'll always see him talking to those two during games about defensive adjustments

Chip Engelland works tirelessly with players on their shots. Besides their hard work as individuals, the #1 reason for any strides in the players' shooting is because of Chip. Most of these 'D-Leaguers' Pop turn into effective players earn a place in the league as shooters: that's a lot to do with Popovich's scheme (and Bud's when he was here since he was the original architect of the offense circa 2012), but it's mostly because Chip is a shooting guru.

Pop is perhaps the greatest coach in NBA history, but the idea that all of SA's success lies on his shoulders (as the OP inferred) is complete bullshit. Most our best draft picks weren't made by him (Presti drafted Tony and Manu and Pop actually said in 03 after Parker''s rookie season that he somewhat regretted the pick). He doesn't train with guys to make them better defenders or shooters. He's the Head Coach. He deserves more credit than any one individual on the staff but that doesn't mean he does everything. And like you said, there are like two actual NBA rejects on the Spurs this year, and one of them is shooting 35% (sorry Danny, I love you).

[LAZERUSS]

Let's make this simple for a simpleton...

Before Pippen and Grant.

Jordan was a loser putting up empty stats and leading his team to sweeping playoff losses (and gagging in the clinching games of them BTW.)

Pippen and Grant without Jordan.

A 55+ win team that challenged for a title. And both players would go on to have winning seasons after Jordan, as well. Grant even won another ring.

FACT: Jordan was a LOSER before Pippen, and a LOSER after Pippen.

FACT: MJ couldn't win shit without Pippen and an ELITE dominant PF.

FACT: The 90's were so watered down that Hakeem won a title with a bunch of scrubs, and did so by beating Ewing and a bunch of scrubs. Is it any wonder that Jordan could win six rings with STACKED rosters in an era of POS title contenders?

FACT: Jordan's teams never beat anywhere near a great team. And when MJ faced a great team, he was beaten every time. Hell, the ONE GAME he managed to win in his pre-Pippen days came against a Milwaukee team that didn't have a single HOF player (oh, and he was badly outplayed by Mongrief in that series, as well.)

All of which confirms...

FACT: Jordan was winning his six rings in a watered down era with the most STACKED supporting casts in the entire decade.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Great coach but you put him on the Sixers at seasons start and they aren't much better.

True. What make the Spurs great are guys Pop has heavy influence on.

Not many players are willing to sacrifice their individual stats, put up with constant accountability, or just be coached full-bore. Most of the personnel are nice and well mannered players that wanna learn. Pop knows they'll buy anything he says.

[LAZERUSS]

True. What make the Spurs great are guys Pop has heavy influence on.

Not many players are willing to sacrifice their individual stats, put up with constant accountability, or just be coached full-bore. Most of the personnel are nice and well mannered players that wanna learn. Pop knows they'll buy anything he says.

Exactly.

Pop knows the type of players he wants and then gets them to buy into his system. And not only that, but he can put in any rotation with those players, and his system allows them to be successful.

[32jazz]

None of those guys would've allowed the Bulls to beat the Knicks, Pacers, and Rockets in 1994... None of those guys have the impact to improve a team by 3 series wins.
.. Those are the facts.:rolleyes:


If the Bulls simply trade for Derek Harper ( who the Knicks/ their main advesary got for nothing ) instead of going after a CBA player like Pete ' friggin' Myers they position themselves to beat the Knicks.


The Bulls were also a phantom foul on Pippen from going home up 3-2 in the series. So what if Kukoc made a walk off shot? Jordan never benefitted from walk off buckets by teammates before?

Not going to take anything away from the Champion Rockets, but simply getting Harper( an actual NBA talent) from the Knicks & not Pete ' friggin' Myers gets them to the ECF' s & perhaps the Finals.

[dhsilv]

Exactly.

Pop knows the type of players he wants and then gets them to buy into his system. And not only that, but he can put in any rotation with those players, and his system allows them to be successful.

He's worked with head cases as well. A big part of the spurs is Duncan as I keep saying, but lets not forget who manu is. Those guys are both world class hall of fame players who have be linchpins in their culture.

[3ball]

The Bulls were also a phantom foul on Pippen from going home up 3-2 in the series. So what if Kukoc made a walk off shot?


It negates the excuse about the phantom foul - which was an ACTUAL foul - it was yet another example of Pippen choking..

But anyway, the Bulls were one play away from being down 0-3, which offsets Pippen's foul... "If this, if that" excuses are garbage and always go both ways.

The Bulls were simply a 2nd Round team - heck, they would've lost in the 1st Round if the Cavs weren't missing their three best players (their entire frontcourt - all-star Brad Daughtery, all-star SF Larry Nance, and PF Hot Rod Williams 14/8 and 1.7 blocks).. All games were single-digit affairs.





Jordan never benefitted from walk off buckets by teammates before?


Never in the playoffs..





Not going to take anything away from the Champion Rockets, but simply getting Derek Harper from the Knicks & not Pete ' friggin' Myers gets them to the ECF' s & perhaps the Finals.


Toni Kukoc > Derek Harper.. So that destroys your argument.. But more importantly, you could've replaced Myers with Joe Dumars or Reggie Miller - none of those guys would've allowed the Bulls to beat the Knicks, Pacers, and Rockets in 1994... None of those guys have the impact to improve a team by 3 series wins.

And even if you want to hypothesize about someone like Kobe replacing Jordan - it's a pointless exercise because Kobe couldn't achieve the stats MJ needed to 3-peat in the first place (35/7/7/50).. Kobe's 25/5/5/45 wouldn't cut it, so he wouldn't be in 4-peat position by 1994.

So it's pointless to imagine what other players would do with Jordan's already-made championship teams, since no one can achieve the stats MJ needed to win those championships in the first place.

Btw, if you think Dumars and 15-18 ppg would've won the championship for the Bulls in 1994, then Jordan would've won the 2007 Finals EASILY, since he would've averaged 30+ vs. Spurs.. See how biased you are??.. You're eager to use that logic to say the 94' Bulls could've won 3 additional series, but won't apply the same logic to say Jordan would've won 1 series.... (which btw, he would have (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11989539&postcount=140)).

[La Frescobaldi]

Let's make this simple for a simpleton...

Before Pippen and Grant.

Jordan was a loser putting up empty stats and leading his team to sweeping playoff losses (and gagging in the clinching games of them BTW.)

Pippen and Grant without Jordan.

A 55+ win team that challenged for a title. And both players would go on to have winning seasons after Jordan, as well. Grant even won another ring.

FACT: Jordan was a LOSER before Pippen, and a LOSER after Pippen.

FACT: MJ couldn't win shit without Pippen and an ELITE dominant PF.

FACT: The 90's were so watered down that Hakeem won a title with a bunch of scrubs, and did so by beating Ewing and a bunch of scrubs. Is it any wonder that Jordan could win six rings with STACKED rosters in an era of POS title contenders?

FACT: Jordan's teams never beat anywhere near a great team. And when MJ faced a great team, he was beaten every time. Hell, the ONE GAME he managed to win in his pre-Pippen days came against a Milwaukee team that didn't have a single HOF player (oh, and he was badly outplayed by Mongrief in that series, as well.)

All of which confirms...

FACT: Jordan was winning his six rings in a watered down era with the most STACKED supporting casts in the entire decade.

pretty devastating stuff Laz.

[3ball]

Before Pippen and Grant.

Jordan was a loser putting up empty stats and leading his team to sweeping playoff losses


If you could point to a series where MJ's team underachieved by losing when they were expected to win (like many of Lebron's teams), then you'd have a point.

But you can't - MJ only lost when no one expected him to win, and even when no one expected him to win, he STILL won various playoff series:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=17m37s


In 1989 (referenced in the clip above), the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8/54... So heading into the 1990 season, the Bulls would've been lottery instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting the 3-peat..

That's the goat impact on bad teams - and we already know MJ can take a 2nd Round team and turn them into 3-peat champs.





A 55+ win team that challenged for a title.


The Bulls were a 2nd Round team without Jordan, and were one play away from being down 0-3 on the brink of being swept (Kukoc's walk-off miracle in Game 3 saved them).

A 2nd Round team is nowhere near "seriously challenge for a title"...

You're literally the only person on earth who says this.





MJ couldn't win shit without Pippen and an ELITE dominant PF.


If a power forward isn't an all-star OR all-defense, then they aren't elite or dominant.. MJ won all 6 rings without an all-star PF, and 4 of the 6 years he didn't have an all-defense PF.

Grant made zero all-star games alongside Jordan and only ONE 2nd team all-defense...

Ditto for Rodman - Rodman wasn't an all-star and made only 1 all-defensive team alongside Jordan (he did not make the 1997 or 1998 all-defensive teams).





Is it any wonder that Jordan could win six rings with STACKED rosters


After MJ and Scottie, the remaining roster was the least talented in the league - the list below shows every Bulls player that played more than 10 mpg in 1993 (excluding MJ):


.....................PPG.......MPG

Pippen............18.6...... 38.6
Grant.............13.2....... 35.6
Armstrong.......12.3.......30.4
Cartwright........5.6....... 19.9
S Williams........5.9........19.3
Paxson............ 4.2........17.5
R McCray......... 3.5........15.9
S King............. 5.4....... 13.9
W Perdue......... 4.7........13.9
T Tucker.......... 5.2........13.2
D Walker......... 2.6........13.1


The 1993 supporting cast only had 3 guys (Pippen/Grant/Armstrong) that played more than 20 mpg and averaged more than 6 ppg.. Everyone else played LESS than 20 mpg and scored LESS than 6 ppg.

Essentially, the Bulls relied on a mix of interchangeable stiffs who barely played and barely scored for the #4 thru #12 spots.

There isn't a single team in the league where the #4 thru #12 players are anywhere near this bad.





MJ couldn't win shit without Pippen]


No one can win a ring without ANY help.

But Pippen plus very weak talent after that (no all-stars, and #4 thru 12 spots that averaged less than 20 MPG and 6 PPG, shown above) represents FAR less help than Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Lebron, Duncan, and anyone else you want to compare to Jordan... All of their teams were far more stacked relative to their competition than Jordan's.

Jordan's minimal help is proven by the stats - he had to score the most ever to win his rings, including scoring at least 10 ppg more than his 2nd option for every series of their careers, while still leading the team in passing (MJ led Bulls in assist % for for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49)) - no one else had to produce anywhere NEAR this.

Seriously - show me a player who had to score 10 ppg more than their 2nd option for every series of their careers, AND lead the team in passing.. I'll wait.





Jordan was winning his six rings with the most STACKED supporting casts in the entire decade.


It's clear by looking at the Bulls' roster (above), that they had possibly the worst talent in the league after MJ and Scottie.. The supporting cast only had 3 guys that averaged more than 20 MPG and 6 ppg.. That means the #4 thru 12 players averaged LESS than 20 mpg and 6 ppg, which was worst in the league - no other team's #4 thru 12 guy were that bad.

The Bulls' horrible talent after MJ and Scottie is why the team needed MJ to be scoring champ every single year, including scoring at least 10 ppg more than Scottie for every playoff series of their careers, while still leading the team in passing (MJ led the team in assist % for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49)) - no one in history had to do anywhere NEAR this much..

Seriously - show me a player who had to score 10 ppg more than their 2nd option for every series of their careers, AND lead the team in passing.. I'll wait.

Also, during Jordan's 2nd three-peat (1996-1998), Pippen's playoff averages were 17/7/5 on 40.8%... This includes WOAT Finals of 15 ppg on 34% in 1996, and 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 (6 and 8 points in final 2 games).. That's a very sub-par 2nd option... Pippen was not a top ten 2nd option during 2nd three-peat.
.

[LAZERUSS]

pretty devastating stuff Laz.

And yet, the idiot just goes on-and-on with the same copy-and-paste bullshit that doesn't even come close to addressing REALITY.

And he will continue to do so every single day until he is finally committed.

[3ball]

And yet, the idiot just goes on-and-on with the same copy-and-paste bullshit that doesn't even come close to addressing REALITY.


The previous post isn't a copy paste - those are new responses that specifically counter every single one of your points.

I succinctly cut down each of of your best arguments, so I understand why you're annoyed and quoting the post of someone that didn't get a chance to read the response.

[Anaximandro1]

Spurs competitive advantage lies in Duncan's salary and leadership. You can say the same thing about Manu.


1) Winning Culture
[QUOTE]David West told Yahoo Sports

The fact is, the history is there . You

[32jazz]

It negates the excuse about the phantom foul - which was an ACTUAL foul - it was yet another example of Pippen choking..

But anyway, the Bulls were one play away from being down 0-3, which offsets Pippen's foul... "If this, if that" excuses are garbage and always go both ways.

The Bulls were simply a 2nd Round team - heck, they would've lost in the 1st Round if the Cavs weren't missing their three best players (their entire frontcourt - all-star Brad Daughtery, all-star SF Larry Nance, and PF Hot Rod Williams 14/8 and 1.7 blocks).. All games were single-digit affairs.



Never in the playoffs..



Toni Kukoc > Derek Harper.. So that destroys your argument.. But more importantly, you could've replaced Myers with Joe Dumars or Reggie Miller - none of those guys would've allowed the Bulls to beat the Knicks, Pacers, and Rockets in 1994... None of those guys have the impact to improve a team by 3 series wins.140]would have[/url]).

You're retarded if you don't believe replacing a CBA journeyman like Pete ' friggin' Myers with.....stop it.


Please regale us with stories of how great Toni Kukoc was who barely cracked the Bulls lineup with an awesome 19 minutes per game & 9ppg on 43% shooting?

Derek Harper was no longer the same player , but he saved the Knicks season / playoffs after Doc Rivers went down playing over 32 minutes per game.

Obviously the Bulls would not have needed 32 minutes from Harper ,but they at least keep him away from the Knicks who desperately needed his defense/ Leadership.

Harper >>>>>than Pete ' friggin' Myers who the Bulls settled on.

Kill 2 birds

1) Keep Harper from Knicks who desperately needed him to play 32 mpg
2)obtain a solid NBA veteran in Harper over a CBA journeyman

[KiiiiNG]

Laz absolutely killing 3ball. :oldlol:

60 wins without Jordan. Case closed.

Guy played with the best coach, in a weak era, with the best talent. After getting his dad killed he quit basketball and his team won 60 games.

MJ myth busted, he's not the GOAT. Not even close.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, I apologize for somehow getting dragged into an MJ discussion on a topic about Popovich.

I'm done with Goofball and his MJ madness on this topic.

[bdreason]

Pop is amazing, but the current Suns roster is like a NBA D-League team.