Let's wait until the playoffs before we start saying Curry's offense = MJ's [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ball

01-27-2016, 02:26 AM

.
Last year, prime Curry won the championship while scoring a FAR lower proportion of his team's points than 34-35 year old MJ did:

................Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor

.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th

JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

CURRY 2015..... 29.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 36.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 36.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 29.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 40.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)

Like everyone else in history, Curry won a championship while doing FAR LESS than MJ had to do... We know why obviously - MJ had inferior supporting talent.. 2+2=4

SouBeachTalents

01-27-2016, 02:29 AM

I actually agree with 3ball for once. We really do need to see how Curry performs in the playoffs to properly rank this season

WayOfWade

01-27-2016, 02:30 AM

I can approve of this, something rational for once :applause:

FKAri

01-27-2016, 02:32 AM

After being locked up in your bunker for 48 hours like Hitler instead of deciding to kill yourself like he did, you decided to fight back with....this?

This thread is more disappointing than Kid Cudi's last album.

Where are your trademark gifs? Only TWO colors? Where is the essay? All the components of a classic 3ball thread? I, for one, expected more from you. I can't say I'm a fan after this performance.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

01-27-2016, 02:36 AM

3ball isn't wrong. I've been saying the playoffs will be a huge benchmark on where Curry's season, as a whole, ranks.

Dude plays anywhere close to this level? Well, lets just say the debates here could get interesting.

3ball

01-27-2016, 02:44 AM

I can approve of this, something rational for once :applause:

UNBELIEVABLE - I've been posting these stats for a month now - so you agree with the OP stats, but the SAME stats below showing 34-35 year old MJ carried the biggest load ever aren't "rational":

...........Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor

.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th

JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 35.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 35.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

KOBE 2008....... 31.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 36.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 41.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 30.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2009.... 35.0..... 39.3..... 41.5..... 42.4
LEBRON 2010.... 34.6..... 44.4..... 32.6..... 40.3
LEBRON 2011.... 32.0..... 32.8..... 28.1..... 30.7...... 21.4...... 14.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
LEBRON 2012.... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
LEBRON 2013.... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
LEBRON 2014.... 33.1..... 38.2..... 35.3..... 32.1...... 39.6...... 29.5
LEBRON 2015.... 30.1..... 38.9..... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 42.4...... 40.0...... 44.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

So again, lay off the condescension... You're a simpleton just like everyone else that doesn't like seeing proof of how GOAT Jordan was.

You're also flip-flopper and hypocritical - you said I had repeatedly killed Lazeruss in the other thread HERE (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12057452&postcount=73), but now I'm not "rationale".

This proves you're just a leaf blowing in the wind - you'll hop on board of anything that degrades Curry... :facepalm

oh the horror

01-27-2016, 02:45 AM

Id actually like to see it during the playoffs as well when the refs somewhat let them play and swallow those whistles a bit more. People really don't seem
To understand the way the game is played now with the green light for perimeter players to basically face up on their defender without being touched does for stats in general

I guarantee you as time goes on you'll see numbers like Curry's as the years progress. He's a product of the time and someone that has perfected the way the game is played now.

He's a joy to watch and is an amazing player but I have trouble buying the BS surrounding this dude. I'm SEEING the product of that rule change and how it has opened the floor up for these guys with my own eyeballs.

FKAri

01-27-2016, 02:46 AM

Nick Young

01-27-2016, 02:49 AM

.
Last year, prime Curry won the championship while scoring a FAR lower proportion of his team's points than 34-35 year old MJ did:

That's because Curry is a better team player and involves his teammates more. Curry is more efficient than MJ was. Curry is a better shooter than MJ was. Curry being on the floor gives more spacing to every one of his teammates.

3ball

01-27-2016, 02:56 AM

Wait...Those digits are links? :eek:

I take everything back. Strong comeback thread. I just needed to read it multiple times to absorb the power :applause:

This is like the Beatles following the White Album with Abbey Road. OP keeps on raising the bar :banana:

Holy crap - Apparently I should've mentioned it - I posted this 6 times in the "3-peat chemistry" thread - and they included Pippen's and Kobe's too - here they are again:

................Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor

.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th

JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 35.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 35.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

PIPPEN 1997.... 24.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 22.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 24.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 25.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
PIPPEN 1998.... 24.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 19.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 21.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 15.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 22.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 14.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)

KOBE 2001....... 32.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 34.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 31.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 37.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 23.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
KOBE 2002....... 30.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 31.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 29.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 27.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 32.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

KOBE 2008....... 31.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 36.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 41.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 30.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2009.... 35.0..... 39.3..... 41.5..... 42.4
LEBRON 2010.... 34.6..... 44.4..... 32.6..... 40.3
LEBRON 2011.... 32.0..... 32.8..... 28.1..... 30.7...... 21.4...... 14.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
LEBRON 2012.... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
LEBRON 2013.... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
LEBRON 2014.... 33.1..... 38.2..... 35.3..... 32.1...... 39.6...... 29.5
LEBRON 2015.... 30.1..... 38.9..... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 42.4...... 40.0...... 44.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

As you can see, 34-35 year old MJ scored a much higher proportion of his team's points while on the floor than everyone, including PRIME SHAQ and especially in the 4th quarter.. (Shaq got twice the reb & blk, but MJ got twice the apg & spg, so we're left with pts).

And Jordan's 1997/1998 teams were supposed to be more "stacked" (:rolleyes:) than the first 3-peat teams from his prime - so just imagine if we had the stats from MJ's prime - he probably scored 60-70% of his team's points while on the floor.

It should be mentioned that MJ also led his team in assist % for for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49).

And he was the team's best defender - this was commonly known AT THE TIME (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s) (before young fans' revisionist history).
.

oh the horror

01-27-2016, 02:57 AM

That's because Curry is a better team player and involves his teammates more. Curry is more efficient than MJ was. Curry is a better shooter than MJ was. Curry being on the floor gives more spacing to every one of his teammates.

When you have rules catered to perimeter players then sure. It would seem like he's the most effective offensive guard of all time.

Sorry not buying it. The game changed and Curry has mastered the way it's played now. You give Mike at his peak this time of open season where he can essentially face up on defenders and dice them up as he's a far superior slasher at his peak than Curry and we'd all be discussing their numbers again.

Curry is a better shooter than Jordan from the three.

livingby3's

01-27-2016, 03:05 AM

OldSchoolBBall

01-27-2016, 03:09 AM

I honestly think '90-'93 Jordan could average 35 ppg/52% FG/63% TS/6+ ast under these rules with no contact, wide open lanes, and no legit big men inside to challenge.

plowking

01-27-2016, 03:46 AM

I honestly think '90-'93 Jordan could average 35 ppg/52% FG/63% TS/6+ ast under these rules with no contact, wide open lanes, and no legit big men inside to challenge.

He wouldn't though. Durant isn't doing it for one season, and I'm supposed to believe Jordan would do it over 3 years?

He'd put up 30-32ppg on about 50%. He isn't becoming more efficient in this era. Everything points to the opposite. Everything.
Dale Ellis put up 28ppg on 50% shooting in 1990.
Eddie Johnson was putting up 22 on 50%...
Mullin put up 27ppg on 51%...

Durant is averaging 26 points before tonights game... And has been hovering about 27-28ppg outside of his 32ppg season. None of those guys are close to him as a scorer, yet all of them are remarkably close, and as efficient somehow in that period of time.
Reggie was putting up 25ppg on similar efficiency...

OldSchoolBBall

01-27-2016, 05:01 AM

Dr Hawk

01-27-2016, 05:17 AM

But, SO FAR, Jordan has never been this good offensively.

Again, from the start of the season till 27th of January, Jordan has never been this good offensively. Will see if Curry maintains this level.

Quickening

01-27-2016, 05:24 AM

What does percentage of team points have to do with better scorer? MJ style if play was effective at getting him a lot of points, Curry style of play creates ridiculous spacing due to his range, giving team mates easy points.

Look at efg% and curry dominates Mj best season, this is the best measurement if someone is scoring close to 30ppg on volume 3s, not just fact that mj chucked up a lot of twos.

diamenz

01-27-2016, 07:11 AM

I honestly think '90-'93 Jordan could average 35 ppg/52% FG/63% TS/6+ ast under these rules with no contact, wide open lanes, and no legit big men inside to challenge.

he would, and so would bird. it's the shot iq that does it.

Dragonyeuw

01-27-2016, 08:33 AM

He wouldn't though. Durant isn't doing it for one season, and I'm supposed to believe Jordan would do it over 3 years?

He'd put up 30-32ppg on about 50%. He isn't becoming more efficient in this era. Everything points to the opposite. Everything.
Dale Ellis put up 28ppg on 50% shooting in 1990.
Eddie Johnson was putting up 22 on 50%...
Mullin put up 27ppg on 51%...

Durant is averaging 26 points before tonights game... And has been hovering about 27-28ppg outside of his 32ppg season. None of those guys are close to him as a scorer, yet all of them are remarkably close, and as efficient somehow in that period of time.
Reggie was putting up 25ppg on similar efficiency...

The rules are catered to MJ doing something along those lines of what Oldschool posted. Durant did some historic level scoring volume/efficiency back in 2014, and since he appears all the way back from his injury, without Westbrook I think he's very capable of 33-35 on the same kind of efficiency stats he posted back 2 seasons ago. Frankly I think he'd do ever better if you infused him with Westbrook's mentality; I feel he's that dangerous as a scorer in terms of pure ability.

As for peak MJ, in this era he'd probably get 10 points a night off free throws alone. People bitch about someone like Harden drawing fouls like crazy, I don't think he'd have anything on MJ in that regard. MJ's peak game was a perfect blend of Kobe's mid-range, Wade's slashing, and Lebron's physical prowess. Put that in today's era, I can't see any worse than what Durant did in 2014, except 3 point shooting. But 33-34ppg on 52/38/85? I can see that quite easily. Team make-up and needs as always plays a role.

3ball

01-27-2016, 09:36 AM

................Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor

.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th

JORDAN 1997... 57.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 54.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 53.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

SHAQ 2000....... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 59.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 56.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 57.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 59.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 51.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 44.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 55.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

plowking

01-27-2016, 09:37 AM

The rules are catered to MJ doing something along those lines of what Oldschool posted. Durant did some historic level scoring volume/efficiency back in 2014, and since he appears all the way back from his injury, without Westbrook I think he's very capable of 33-35 on the same kind of efficiency stats he posted back 2 seasons ago. Frankly I think he'd do ever better if you infused him with Westbrook's mentality; I feel he's that dangerous as a scorer in terms of pure ability.

As for peak MJ, in this era he'd probably get 10 points a night off free throws alone. People bitch about someone like Harden drawing fouls like crazy, I don't think he'd have anything on MJ in that regard. MJ's peak game was a perfect blend of Kobe's mid-range, Wade's slashing, and Lebron's physical prowess. Put that in today's era, I can't see any worse than what Durant did in 2014, except 3 point shooting. But 33-34ppg on 52/38/85? I can see that quite easily. Team make-up and needs as always plays a role.

Oh FFS...

The point predictions are ridiculous enough, and then you throw in 38% from the 3 point line? Based on what? What in the world makes you think MJ can come close to that over a sustained period of 3+ seasons?

Mullin was on a team full of scorers and he was putting up 27ppg on better efficiency than Durant currently. Miller was putting up 25ppg with a lot of capable offensive players on his team.
These guys aren't close to as gifted as Durant as scoring, and yet were putting up those numbers in the 90's.

It is harder to score now. Harder to score as an individual and dominate the game as one. It is the exact reason why teams like the Spurs and Warriors who play a team oriented brand of basketball are able to win so many games, while teams like OKC who are more loaded with talent aren't because they are stuck in the brand of 90's and early 2000's hero ball.
Zones and smarter team defenses now force star players into worse shots, and force the ball out of their hands in more situations. That is what zones and doubles off the ball, etc, which were not allowed before do.

The start of the 80's to the early 90's was some of the most statistically inflated and open basketball ever outside of the early days. You can look through that era and find a bunch of guys and really find it hard to imagine how they scored between 25-30ppg... On great percentages too.

Dragonyeuw

01-27-2016, 09:56 AM

Oh FFS...

The point predictions are ridiculous enough, and then you throw in 38% from the 3 point line? Based on what? What in the world makes you think MJ can come close to that over a sustained period of 3+ seasons?

MJ shot 37.6 in 1990, and 35.2 in 1993 on 3 attempts a game. Why do you assume that coming along in a 3 point happy era, that he wouldn't practice that shot more often to make it a larger part of his arsenal in the modern era? If someone like D.Wade can put up 30ppg as recently as 2009 taking 3.5 3's a game and shooting 32%, which is far and away the best he ever shot the ball from range, why wouldn't a more prolific version of Wade surpass that? MJ was a more far consistent mid-range shooter, on top of a slashing game that is built to draw fouls in this era. There are modern examples of perimeter scorers that you can use to extrapolate MJ's stats and performances. Why exactly are the point predictions ridiculous? Are you saying 1990 MJ couldn't surpass what Wade did 6 years ago?

EDIT:As for your reference that OKC's brand of ball doesn't work in today's game, while they aren't on the same level of Warriors/Spurs( who are just better constructed teams from top to bottom), they have the 3rd best record in the league. You talk as if they're scrapping to make .500. Hell, Miami were back to back champs are recently as 2-3 years ago, and they didn't have the level of execution as the Warriors and Spurs. Just because those two teams are currently at the top of the heap, doesn't mean that's the only way to succeed in today's NBA.

plowking

01-27-2016, 10:11 AM

MJ shot 37.6 in 1990, and 35.2 in 1993 on 3 attempts a game. Why do you assume that coming along in a 3 point happy era, that he wouldn't practice that shot more often to make it a larger part of his arsenal in the modern era? If someone like D.Wade can put up 30ppg as recently as 2009 taking 3.5 3's a game and shooting 32%, which is far and away the best he ever shot the ball from range, why wouldn't a more prolific version of Wade surpass that? MJ was a more far prolific and consistent mid-range shooter, on top of a slashing game that is built to draw fouls in this era. There are modern examples of perimeter scorers that you can use to extralopalate MJ's stats and performances.

Outside of the shortened 3 point period, he shot 29% from three in his career...

In a more 3 point happy era, he is taking more 3's, hence his FG% dips. He was scoring 32ppg at a 51.6% clip from his rookie season all the way to the end of his first 3 peat. All while only taking 1 three pointer a game. He shot a 59% TS% in this time as well.
Kobe for example is a much better shooter from 3 point land and he only mustered 38% once in his career. MJ isn't doing it with any regularity.

MJ isn't doing anything more in this era than he did his own. His stats probably remain the same outside of a slight dip in TS%. Maybe 58% instead of the 59%.

3ball

01-27-2016, 10:12 AM

..Percentages of team points + assists - turnovers while player was on floor

........................ PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th

JORDAN 1997... 40.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 51.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 48.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 38.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 52.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 41.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012.... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 31.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013.... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 45.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 46.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)

LAZERUSS

01-27-2016, 10:14 AM

You don't get it - Even though MJ's form was flawless and far superior to 99% of today's players, MJ never THOUGHT about 3-point shooting, let alone take 100+ threes everyday in practice like all of today's players do as a standard... Some guys take 200+ or 500.

At the regular 3-point distance (not the closer line), the were only 2 times MJ shot any material volume of 3-pointers.. In 1990, he had 3.0 attempts and shot 37.6%, and in 1993 he had 2.9 attempts and shot 35.2%.

Those are their career highs, which fall far short of Durant's 32 ppg career high in 2014.. Similarly, their career averages (both 18 ppg) fall far short of Durant's (26 ppg).

So those are horrible examples, just like any other example you want to use from the 90's... You simply have a misapprehension of 90's defense.

My next response will respond to the rest of your misguided opinions on how defense..

oh geez...here we go again...

Let's end it now...

If Curry goes on to average 40 ppg on an 80% TS the rest of his career, and his team wins seven rings...

He is still no Jordan...

Dragonyeuw

01-27-2016, 10:29 AM

Outside of the shortened 3 point period, he shot 29% from three in his career...

In a more 3 point happy era, he is taking more 3's, hence his FG% dips. He was scoring 32ppg at a 51.6% clip from his rookie season all the way to the end of his first 3 peat. All while only taking 1 three pointer a game. He shot a 59% TS% in this time as well.
Kobe for example is a much better shooter from 3 point land and he only mustered 38% once in his career. MJ isn't doing it with any regularity.

MJ isn't doing anything more in this era than he did his own. His stats probably remain the same outside of a slight dip in TS%. Maybe 58% instead of the 59%.

And for that 29%, you are also aware that those averages came either before he had evolved as a shooter, or after his peak. We're talking about peak MJ, as in first 3-peat MJ, and what he'd do in today's game. That version of MJ was a good enough 3point shooter to shoot at least 36-38% on 3's, and no he wouldn't necessarily need to dramatically increase his attempts. Last season's scoring champ put up 28 while shooting .299 from 3. You don't 'have' to be Curry/Durant level as a 3point shooter to score in the vicinity of 30ppg. Harden isn't a great 3 point shooter, neither is Westbrook. That's 2 of your top 5 scorers right there, and neither of them are close to MJ. And even if you want to fixate on his 3 point shooting, the reality is whatever points he wouldn't get from 3's, would be made up in GOAT level mid-range shooting and slashing that would have him on the line 12 times a night under today's rules.

sdot_thadon

01-27-2016, 10:29 AM

Dragonyeuw

01-27-2016, 10:41 AM

I believe the extra ft attempts would likely boost his numbers a tad bit, that's a decent argument as to why his efficiency maybe wouldn't increase in this era. We seem to take so many liberties when projecting Mjs stats in this era that we take for no other player. Why not deal in the reality of what he was actually capable of, that's more than good enough. He never sustained a high 3pt%, so predicting he would is a bit of a reach. I see Mj in this era as a slightly better peak wade, as his normal output. His ceiling is capable of being a bit higher than that. With all nba 1st team defense, unless removing handchecking takes him down a tier. Something like 51/32/83, and thats not accounting for whether or not modern defenders and schemes will cause any performance drops. As well as assuming he won't be slandered in the media for being a ball hog at attempt rates much higher than star players of this era. Will he play team ball or will he play his way? Tons of small details to consider that can move the needle either way.

But we have evidence that prime MJ was, at worst, a 35% 3point shooter on 3 attempts a night. I don't see modern defenses causing any drops in that number if we just take THAT MJ and teleport him to 2016. I won't even argue the point that MJ in today's game likely practices the 3 more, that's just speculation but I don't think unreasonable.

In terms of media portrayal, MJ was considered a ball-hog in the late 80's. It was basically, in terms of the best players, MJ/Magic/Bird with the general consensus being that MJ was the best individual talent, but that a scoring champ wouldn't win championships. So that criticism was in place even back then.

f0und

01-27-2016, 10:55 AM

thats what ive been saying. when a playoff caliber team can focus all of their defensive gameplanning on him game after game for up to 7 games, throwing every single scheme they can think of at him, we'll see how he does. not only will he have to play up to his regular season standards, but he will have to raise it. and not only will he have to do that for one series, he will have to do that for 4 series en route to winning a title and finals mvp. thats when the real talk begins. and if he can do all that for consecutive seasons and a three peat, thats when things get real interesting.

but all this talk about it when we're only halfway through one regular season is way too premature.

sdot_thadon

01-27-2016, 11:21 AM

But we have evidence that prime MJ was, at worst, a 35% 3point shooter on 3 attempts a night. I don't see modern defenses causing any drops in that number if we just take THAT MJ and teleport him to 2016. I won't even argue the point that MJ in today's game likely practices the 3 more, that's just speculation but I don't think unreasonable.

In terms of media portrayal, MJ was considered a ball-hog in the late 80's. It was basically, in terms of the best players, MJ/Magic/Bird with the general consensus being that MJ was the best individual talent, but that a scoring champ wouldn't win championships. So that criticism was in place even back then.
We don't necessarily have evidence that he's at worse a 35% 3pt shooter, just that he shot that well before. If you look at his yearly splits his 3pt shot wildly fluctuated from year to year that basically screams inconsistency. There isn't any rational or stable data to suggest he'd all of a sudden become Kevin Durant from the 3pt line, suddenly stabilizing as a shooter and sustaining it. He's never shown any sort of sustainability of his outside shot in his career.

As for the media attention, sure I agree he already had the label but without the obscene level of coverage and media voices we have today. He had the most scrutiny in his day but it doesn't compare to the modern day media. I'm curious if the extra dialogue would force him to play differently or even be viewed in a negative light as opposed to the way he's seen today.

3ball

01-27-2016, 11:26 AM

It's harder to score now. Harder to score as an individual and dominate the game as one. It is the exact reason why teams like the Spurs and Warriors who play a team oriented brand of basketball are able to win so many games, while teams like OKC who are more loaded with talent aren't because they are stuck in the brand of 90's and early 2000's hero ball.

You're conflating winning and individual scoring - when Jordan wasn't winning in the 80's - that's when he put up his biggest stats (33-37 ppg)... When he started winning in the 90's by playing the same team ball that the Spurs/Warriors play, his stats came down to 29-33 ppg.

And you don't seem to realize that MJ's points in the triangle were obtained with minimal dribbling, within the offense - you rarely saw him pound the ball at the top of the key for 5+ seconds and wait on a screen roll or go 1-on-1 off-the-dribble.. That just isn't how he played - this is THE biggest misconception of his game.

Otoh, for today's wing players, the game is based on ball-dominant isolations and running screen rolls to help the ballhandler and initiate automatic, hands-off penetration - Lebron, Harden and virtually any wing or point guard is the ballhandler in screen roll (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time) or runs an isolation (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time) for literally 40-70% of their offense - this is statistical fact (click on those links).

Zones and smarter team defenses now force star players into worse shots, and force the ball out of their hands in more situations. That is what zones and doubles off the ball, etc, which were not allowed before do.

Previous eras didn't have 3-point shooters to space out defenders - but you aren't acknowledging spacing AT ALL, even though it's the most important aspect of offense.. Defenders are either faced with making extra rotations due to spacing/spaced-out defenders (today's game), or having less rotations due to no spacing/bunched-up defenders (previous eras).

Today's defensive rotations merely offset the spacing, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. ORtg has ranged between 105 and 108 since 1980, excluding a brief downswing from 1999-2004.

The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.. Notice how (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html) as 3-pointers increase over the years, offensive rebounding rate declines, which reduces ORtg - that's just how ORtg is calculated - the higher proportion of 2-pointers taken in previous eras resulted in higher offensive rebounding rate, which inflated ORtg - this is statistical fact.. Nonetheless, the rule changes in 2005 began to inflate ORtg again, and it reached all-time highs from 2008-2011.

But again, regardless of these minor shifts, ORtg has remained within the 105-108 range for 30 years - stable ORtg over the years proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).

LAZERUSS

01-27-2016, 11:37 AM

You're conflating winning and individual scoring - when Jordan wasn't winning in the 80's - that's when he put up his biggest stats (33-37 ppg)... When he started winning in the 90's by playing the same team ball that the Spurs/Warriors play, his stats came down to 29-33 ppg.

And you don't seem to realize that MJ's points in the triangle were obtained with minimal dribbling, within the offense - you rarely saw him pound the ball at the top of the key for 5+ seconds and wait on a screen roll or go 1-on-1 off-the-dribble.. That just isn't how he played - this is THE biggest misconception of his game.

Otoh, for today's wing players, the game is based on ball-dominant isolations and running screen rolls to help the ballhandler and initiate automatic, hands-off penetration - Lebron, Harden and virtually any wing or point guard is the ballhandler in screen roll (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time) or runs an isolation (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time) for literally 40-70% of their offense - this is statistical fact (click on those links).

Previous eras didn't have 3-point shooters to space out defenders - but you aren't acknowledging spacing AT ALL, even though it's the most important aspect of offense.. Defenders are either faced with making extra rotations due to spacing/spaced-out defenders (today's game), or having less rotations due to no spacing/bunched-up defenders (previous eras).

Today's defensive rotations merely offset the spacing, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. ORtg has ranged between 105 and 108 since 1980, excluding a brief downswing from 1999-2004.

The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.. Notice how (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html) as 3-pointers increase over the years, offensive rebounding rate declines, which reduces ORtg - that's just how ORtg is calculated - the higher proportion of 2-pointers taken in previous eras resulted in higher offensive rebounding rate, which inflated ORtg - this is statistical fact.. Nonetheless, the rule changes in 2005 began to inflate ORtg again, and it reached all-time highs from 2008-2011.

But again, regardless of these minor shifts, ORtg has remained within the 105-108 range for 30 years - stable ORtg over the years proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).

I knew it.

Now we all know that Curry, like Lebron, is a POS.

3ball

01-27-2016, 11:47 AM

dragonyeuw is making the superior arguments itt.

part of the reason is because he's smartly using COMPARABLES, just like they use in finance to value businesses and real estate to value buildings.

if 6'3" westbrook and 6'4" wade can be 30 ppg scoring champs with far worse midrange and the same 3-point prowess as MJ (having practiced the shot far more and with far worse form), then prime MJ (or any Bulls version of MJ) would do substantially better than they did.

also, i don't think it's speculation to say MJ didn't practice 3-pointers - he said himself that he preferred NOT to shoot three-pointers, because it took away from his insane 2-point game and playmaking.. This is just the way people thought back then, like the world is flat or a Bush should be president... So it shouldn't be a shock or people shouldn't think MJ is lying when he says he didn't want (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2CyJdCq-zU&t=0m6s) to shoot 3-pointers.

also, everyone in this forum worships 2000 prime Shaq and thinks he's the most-dominant-ever (MDE) - but as the stats show (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12088374&postcount=10) 34/35 year old MJ scored a far higher proportion of his team's points in 1997 and 1998, than Shaq did in 2000... If that doesn't let you know the different animal that MJ was, then nothing will.. (Shaq got twice the rebs and blk, but MJ got twice the assists and stls).
.

PJR

01-27-2016, 11:48 AM

Lol this notion that Jordan would all of sudden be a better three point shooter in this era, just because there is more emphasis on the 3 point shot in today's game is fvcking hilarious.

Was the 3 point shot NOT worth 3 points in the 90's? Lmaooo.

Jordan is the greatest perimeter scorer from 20 feet out ever.

He was not a good three point shooter. Let's not be silly.

3ball

01-27-2016, 11:53 AM

Lol this notion that Jordan would all of sudden be a better three point shooter in this era, just because there is more emphasis on the 3 point shot in today's game is fvcking hilarious.

Was the 3 point shot NOT worth 3 points in the 90's? Lmaooo.

Jordan is the greatest perimeter scorer from 20 feet out ever.

He was not a good three point shooter. Let's not be silly.

Two questions:

1) How do you rate the form on Jordan's jumpshot?

2) Do you think Jordan is lying here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2CyJdCq-zU&t=0m6s

PJR

01-27-2016, 11:56 AM

Jordan had a good looking shot. But he wasn't very accurate from three.

I go by the data. I don't care what he says.

3ball

01-27-2016, 12:00 PM

................Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor

.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th

JORDAN 1997... 57.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 77.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 35.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 35.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

PIPPEN 1997.... 24.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 22.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 24.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 25.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
PIPPEN 1998.... 24.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 19.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 21.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 15.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 22.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 14.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)

KOBE 2001....... 32.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 34.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 31.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 37.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 23.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
KOBE 2002....... 30.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 31.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 29.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 27.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 32.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

KOBE 2008....... 31.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 36.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 41.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 30.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2009.... 35.0..... 39.3..... 41.5..... 42.4
LEBRON 2010.... 34.6..... 44.4..... 32.6..... 40.3
LEBRON 2011.... 32.0..... 32.8..... 28.1..... 30.7...... 21.4...... 14.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
LEBRON 2012.... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
LEBRON 2013.... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
LEBRON 2014.... 33.1..... 38.2..... 35.3..... 32.1...... 39.6...... 29.5
LEBRON 2015.... 30.1..... 38.9..... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 42.4...... 40.0...... 44.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

PJR

01-27-2016, 12:04 PM

ok

but it wouldn't matter anyway - if 6'3" westbrook and 6'4" wade can be 30 ppg scoring champs with far worse midrange and the same 3-point prowess as MJ (having practiced the shot far more and with far worse form), then prime MJ (or any Bulls version of MJ) would do substantially better than they did.

Overall? Sure. I suppose.

But not from 3. Because just like Westbrook and Wade, Jordan wasn't a good three point shooter.

3ball

01-27-2016, 12:09 PM

Jordan had a good looking shot.

But he wasn't very accurate from three.

I go by the data. I don't care what he says.

ok.. so you don't value context.. got it

Overall? Sure. I suppose (he'd do substantially better than scoring champs 6'3" westbrook and 6'4" wade).

But not from 3. Because just like Westbrook and Wade, Jordan wasn't a good three point shooter.

again, I get it - you don't look at context.

btw, everyone in this forum worships 2000 prime Shaq and thinks he's the most-dominant-ever (MDE) - but as the stats show (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12088374&postcount=10), 34/35 year old MJ scored a far higher proportion of his team's points in 1997 and 1998, than Shaq did in 2000... If that doesn't let you know the different animal that MJ was, then nothing will.. (Shaq got twice the rebs and blk, but MJ got twice the assists and stls).

here's what i mean by different animal - this is a different TIER from what scoring champs 6'4" wade and 6'3" westbrook are capable of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=12m07s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=8m51s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=13m24s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=17m01s
.

Marchesk

01-27-2016, 12:12 PM

Lol this notion that Jordan would all of sudden be a better three point shooter in this era, just because there is more emphasis on the 3 point shot in today's game is fvcking hilarious.

I don't know. Who would have thought Kawhi Leondard would be shooting 48% from 3?

He's the thing about MJ. He was extremely dedicated to being the best. So if being the best in this era meant shooting better downtown, then he would have developed a better 3 point shot. But he was drafted in the mid 80s when there was not near the emphasis, especially for someone like him. But he did improve his long range shot as his career went on. 6 threes in a finals first half, remember?

The notion that Jordan, of all people, wouldn't be a better three point shooter today is ridiculous.

Dragonyeuw

01-27-2016, 12:25 PM

We don't necessarily have evidence that he's at worse a 35% 3pt shooter, just that he shot that well before. If you look at his yearly splits his 3pt shot wildly fluctuated from year to year that basically screams inconsistency. There isn't any rational or stable data to suggest he'd all of a sudden become Kevin Durant from the 3pt line, suddenly stabilizing as a shooter and sustaining it. He's never shown any sort of sustainability of his outside shot in his career.

But as previously stated, I'm referring to peak MJ when talking about his 3peat shooting. I don't recall what happened in 92 for his 3point shooting to dip, but his 91 and 93 campaigns were 37% and 35%. That's 2 years out of 3 years of his peak, that were above average 3point shooting relative to the era in question. Then he retired, and upon his return shot 42% and 37% in 96 and 97 albeit from a shortened line, 98 his shooting was impacted by injury and was down across the board( including an uncharacteristic sub 80% free throw shooting).

It's not unreasonable to speculate, which we're all doing here, that from 1990 to 1997 MJ could have maintained a 35% to 37% average had he not retired and if the 3point line wasn't moved in. He had reached that level as a shooter, taking into account that he never made the 3 a featured part of his game. I'm not, or never have, made an argument that he'd shoot 3's at a Durant level of volume/efficiency.

But at this point, we're debating over minor percentages as far as the 3 goes. The big picture is, what would his scoring average wind up in this era? Well, let's give him Wade/Westbrook's level of 3 point shooting ( even though at his peak he proved himself capable of greater). We know that those guys were/are capable of 28-30 points while being poor 3point shooters by today's standards. We know that MJ has superior midrange ability to both, so we can assume 50% shooting is a given if a worse shooting Wade can do that and average 30ppg. We know that his slashing and finishing ability around the rim would still be top-tier today. We know that he'd draw a ton of fouls. And we know he's a superior free throw shooter( much better than Wade, slightly better than Westbrook) to both. We know that in addition to on-ball, he was also incredibly dangerous off-ball. What conclusion would you draw from that?

And ultimately, the topic at hand is Curry's offense compared to MJ's. Is he doing some historic level shit? Absolutely. Durant did some historic shit 2 years ago. Kobe did some historic shit, in terms of streak scoring, 10 years ago. Ultimately, Curry needs to do what he's doing now during the playoffs, over a period of years, before we can have an honest discussion on the topic. 2 years ago, people were orgasming over what Durant did in the regular season, but he didn't quite reach that level in the playoffs and the Thunder went nowhere. The brakes need to be applied just a little here.

sdot_thadon

01-27-2016, 12:41 PM

But as previously stated, I'm referring to peak MJ when talking about his 3peat shooting. I don't recall what happened in 92 for his 3point shooting to dip, but his 91 and 93 campaigns were 37% and 35%. That's 2 years out of 3 years of his peak, that were above average 3point shooting relative to the era in question. Then he retired, and upon his return shot 42% and 37% in 96 and 97 albeit from a shortened line, 98 his shooting was impacted by injury and was down across the board( including an uncharacteristic sub 80% free throw shooting).

It's not unreasonable to speculate, which we're all doing here, that from 1990 to 1997 MJ could have maintained a 35% to 37% average had he not retired and if the 3point line wasn't moved in. He had reached that level as a shooter, taking into account that he never made the 3 a featured part of his game. I'm not, or never have, made an argument that he'd shoot 3's at a Durant level of volume/efficiency.

But at this point, we're debating over minor percentages as far as the 3 goes. The big picture is, what would his scoring average wind up in this era? Well, let's give him Wade/Westbrook's level of 3 point shooting ( even though at his peak he proved himself capable of greater). We know that those guys were/are capable of 28-30 points while being poor 3point shooters by today's standards. We know that MJ has superior midrange ability to both, so we can assume 50% shooting is a given if a worse shooting Wade can do that and average 30ppg. We know that his slashing and fishing ability around the rim would still be top-tier today. We know that he'd draw a ton of fouls. And we know he's a superior free throw shooter( much better than Wade, slightly better than Westbrook) to both. What conclusion would you draw from that?

And ultimately, the topic at hand is Curry's offense compared to MJ's. Is he doing some historic level shit? Absolutely. Durant did some historic shit 2 years ago. Kobe did some historic shit, in terms of streak shooting, 10 years ago. Ultimately, Curry needs to do what he's doing now during the playoffs, over a period of years, before we can have an honest discussion on the topic.
I hear you, I just prefer to deal with what was actual accomplished. I honestly think Mj is in between 30-35 a game, depends upon teammates, system, and scrutiny. He'd fare just fine in this era, some things given (extra ft), some taken away (freedom of navigating the defense) against current schemes. Just be be clear when I say schmes we'retalking the upper echelon.

Curry is doing great things on offense right now, it's definitely dominant but different. People will always tend to favor new things they haven't seen before. Curry is just the latest one, the talk will settle down once everyone gets a long enough sample of what he's doing.

tmacattack33

01-27-2016, 12:56 PM

Correction: Let's wait until the playoffs before we start saying that Curry's offense > MJ's

Dragonyeuw

01-27-2016, 12:58 PM

I hear you, I just prefer to deal with what was actual accomplished. I honestly think Mj is in between 30-35 a game, depends upon teammates, system, and scrutiny. He'd fare just fine in this era, some things given (extra ft), some taken away (freedom of navigating the defense) against current schemes. Just be be clear when I say schmes we'retalking the upper echelon.

Teammates and system are two variables that we can't account for. So the best thing to do is just to look at his game, in terms of what he was capable of. Again, you don't need to be a 'great' 3 point shooter to put up 30 today. Lesser talents have proven this. He's going to navigate the defense just fine, he didn't have Wade's craftiness with the dribble but he had elite quickness, first step, and change of pace. Let's bear in mind that MJ, during the second 3peat, was primarily a jump shooter and post-up player, and still put up 28-30. This was with decreased ability to get to, and finish at, the rim( compared to his peak levels). And even shooting 42 percent in 96, he still only shot 3.2 threes a game. His attempts didn't dramatically jack up because of the shortened line. And he still broke the 30ppg barrier. So I would argue that 32-33ppg for 'peak' MJ in today's game, assuming that variables like system and teammates are in place that may necessitate very high volume of scoring, would be the low-end of his scoring potential.

RepMe

01-27-2016, 01:03 PM

We can still compare seasons to seasons though, even if playoffs are more important.

PP34Deuce

01-27-2016, 01:12 PM

It takes a ridiculous amount of discipline to defend curry. Moves with and without the ball. Best off ball player by far.

Delly was the closest and he burned out literally by Game 4. You almost need like 2 PG's that can play team and man D very well.

The player you need to take out of the game is Draymond Green. This team has hit historic heights and a good portion of that is draymond green.

sdot_thadon

01-27-2016, 01:17 PM

Teammates and system are two variables that we can't account for. So the best thing to do is just to look at his game, in terms of what he was capable of. Again, you don't need to be a 'great' 3 point shooter to put up 30 today. Lesser talents have proven this. He's going to navigate the defense just fine, he didn't have Wade's craftiness with the dribble but he had elite quickness, first step, and change of pace. Let's bear in mind that MJ, during the second 3peat, was primarily a jump shooter and post-up player, and still put up 28-30. This was with decreased ability to get to, and finish at, the rim( compared to his peak levels). And even shooting 42 percent in 96, he still only shot 3.2 threes a game. His attempts didn't dramatically jack up because of the shortened line. And he still broke the 30ppg barrier. So I would argue that 32-33ppg for 'peak' MJ in today's game, assuming that variables like system and teammates are in place that may necessitate very high volume of scoring, would be the low-end of his scoring potential.
I pretty much agree with everything you said here, and wouldn't really argue the ppg prediction either. It's realistic. I totally agree you don't have to be a great 3point shooter to average 30 now days as well. My disagreement was that Mj would instantly become something he's never been. If he could just decide to become a great 3point shooter I'd assume he'd have done so later in his career when he became a jump shooter (2nd 3peat). Would have been pretty valuable to him at that point and could have only made him better.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

01-27-2016, 01:34 PM

Jordan would be better today.

Less physical play, no real centers, and you can't touch perimeter players. If this were even 2000-2004, most of the guys today putting up "nice efficiency" would see a reasonable dip in their production.

BTW, peak Jordan shot ~39% in the playoffs from three. If Mike ever decided to make that a main-staple in his game, he would, and no doubt be greater at it. Jordan is quoted saying he never fell in love with chucking threes like some of his peers did because it took away from his other strengths (midrange and slashing). I mean when you're athletic and agile as Jordan, and have the first step of a cheetah, why would you settle?

Dragonyeuw

01-27-2016, 01:38 PM

My disagreement was that MJ would instantly become something he's never been. If he could just decide to become a great 3point shooter I'd assume he'd have done so later in his career when he became a jump shooter (2nd 3peat). Would have been pretty valuable to him at that point and could have only made him better.

Well, perhaps not instantly, but I look at this way: MJ came along when the 3point shot was in its relative infancy. His shooting naturally evolved and improved over time, to where he is one of, if not the, most prolific mid-range shooters ever( and I imagine 3-ball probably has some stats to back up that assertion). Look at MJ's shooting form and compare to his form after 5-6 seasons; it was pretty much picture perfect by the time he hit his prime. But this is where speculation comes into play: we really don't know what kind of shooter MJ would be coming into the league today. He may have naturally been a better shooter, just because range shooting is a product of the era and the game evolves so to speak. We just don't know, and probably not worth the effort to debate over. But we do know that he quite clearly showed the ability to improve and evolve from his early career to his peak/prime.

So we do have evidence that MJ made conscious efforts to improve himself. If you put him in today's era, if he saw a need to improve his 3point shooting in order to better combat today's defenses, while it's speculation we really have no reason to doubt that he wouldn't dedicate himself to doing it. But even then, he may not choose to employ it to the degree that a Curry or Durant would. But honestly, we can't really compare anyone to Curry as far as 3's goes. He is more an aberration than the status quo. That guy must see matrix code when he's at the 3point line.

StrongLurk

01-27-2016, 01:39 PM

PJR

01-27-2016, 01:52 PM

I don't know. Who would have thought Kawhi Leondard would be shooting 48% from 3?

He's the thing about MJ. He was extremely dedicated to being the best. So if being the best in this era meant shooting better downtown, then he would have developed a better 3 point shot. But he was drafted in the mid 80s when there was not near the emphasis, especially for someone like him. But he did improve his long range shot as his career went on. 6 threes in a finals first half, remember?

The notion that Jordan, of all people, wouldn't be a better three point shooter today is ridiculous.

Leonard had shown to be an a actual solid 3 point shooter early in his young career. He shot nearly 38% from three his rookie year on 100+ attempts, and stayed at that mark for his first three years. Apples and Oranges.

sdot_thadon

01-27-2016, 02:28 PM

So we do have evidence that MJ made conscious efforts to improve himself. If you put him in today's era, if he saw a need to improve his 3point shooting in order to better combat today's defenses, while it's speculation we really have no reason to doubt that he wouldn't dedicate himself to doing it. But even then, he may not choose to employ it to the degree that a Curry or Durant would. But honestly, we can't really compare anyone to Curry as far as 3's goes. He is more an aberration than the status quo. That guy must see matrix code when he's at the 3point line.
:oldlol:
http://thesportswarrior.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Screen_Shot_2015-11-12_at_2.18.54_PM.0.0.png

JohnMax

01-27-2016, 02:39 PM

http://i.imgur.com/4TchVdR.gif

grantz

01-27-2016, 03:04 PM

Offtopic but watching these videos of old Bulls games sometimes makes me feel like it's not playing at normal speed because of Jordan's hang time.

Debating what Jordan could and couldn't have done with the 3 seems kind of useless though 3ball. As much as I like reading your analysis because I think it's sound, it feels like you're using pseudo-analysis to fight your argument here.

I'm sure most of us are still on board with Curry not being Jordan quite yet but he's completely outmatching teams right now much more than he ever did last season.

Duffy Pratt

01-27-2016, 03:48 PM

If Curry stays on his present pace, he will have made more three pointers in his last two years than Jordan made in his career. And he doesn't do it as a spot up shooter. What he is doing now was unimaginable just a couple of years ago.

The thing that impresses me most about him and the Warriors in general, is that after having won a championship, he is playing with a pretty big chip on his shoulder. In this way, he reminds me of a very few other players, including Jordan, Bird, Russell, Walton before the foot injury. Curry and the Warriors are playing like they have something to prove, and it makes them fun to watch.

Having said that, at this point, Curry is one catastrophic injury away from being just like Walton. Let him do this a few more years before putting up any monuments to him. And in the meantime, just enjoy and appreciate what he is doing.

Chadwin

01-27-2016, 05:24 PM

If MJ had the shooters around him to keep defenses honest, he would kill it today.

3ball

01-27-2016, 07:19 PM

If MJ had the shooters around him to keep defenses honest, he would kill it today.
this is spot-on - SPACING is the key to offense - it's the most important aspect of offense - jordan would have it today, whereas he didn't have it in his day.

3ball

01-27-2016, 07:20 PM

It takes a ridiculous amount of discipline to defend curry. Moves with and without the ball. Best off ball player by far.

^^^^ VERY TRUE

Here's a list of all the play-types listed on NBA.com, with the percentile rank that 1.00 PPP equates to in each category (the lower the percentile rank, the more efficient the play - as you can see, 1.00 PPP translates to the 65.2 percentile for "off-screen", and the 81.5 percentile for "isolations", so "off-screen" is more efficient):

1) Cut (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/cut/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Points): 19.2 percentile

2) Roll man on screen-rolls (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/roll-man/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Points): 46.1 percentile

3) Off-screen (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/off-screen/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Points): 65.2 percentile

4) Spot-ups (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/spot-up/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Points): 63.3 percentile

5) Hand-offs (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/hand-off/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Points): 71.4 percentile

6) Isolations (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Points): 81.5 percentile

7) Post-ups (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive): 86.2 percentile

8) Ballhandler on screen-rolls (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Points): 94.6 percentile

HERE'S HOW THIS RELATES TO CURRY'S SUPERIORITY

The least efficient play shown above (ballhandler on screen rolls) constitutes 20-25% of the offense for top wings like Lebron, with another 20-25% coming from similarly low efficient isolations.. Essentially, the top wing players in the league use low efficiency ball-dominance over 50% of the time.

Point guards ALSO use the least efficient options - they're the ballhandler on screen rolls for 40% to 60% of their offense.

But the exception is Steph Curry.. He's the ballhandler on screen-rolls for only 24.2% of his offense and only isolates 10% of the time.. He simply employs the higher efficiency OFF-BALL options more often than his peers.. This is contributes to his superior efficiency.

His off-ball offense not only makes him more efficeint, but this gives teammates more opportunity/time with the ball to be comfortable and play their game..

Unlike Lebron, teammates aren't starved of the ball and don't have to subjugate their game to the whim of the #1 option.. Ultimately, Curry is better because his off-ball play makes him more efficient, while giving his team more capacity to reach a higher level of teamwork and superior play.
.

3ball

01-27-2016, 07:21 PM

I'm surprised that no one seems surprised that 34-35 year old MJ scored a far higher proportion of his team's points in 1997 and 1998, than uber-prime Shaq did in 2000.

3ball

01-27-2016, 07:23 PM

I pretty much agree with everything you said here, and wouldn't really argue the ppg prediction either (32-33 ppg minimum for prime MJ). It's realistic. I totally agree you don't have to be a great 3point shooter to average 30 now days as well. My disagreement was that Mj would instantly become something he's never been. If he could just decide to become a great 3point shooter I'd assume he'd have done so later in his career when he became a jump shooter (2nd 3peat). Would have been pretty valuable to him at that point and could have only made him better.
It's funny how context goes out the window when talking about MJ's 3-point shooting.. Yeah - let's ONLY look at his exact 3-point percentages from 30 years ago in an era where the game was thought about completely differently, and assume it would be the same today... That's the most logical thing to do.

3ball

01-27-2016, 07:24 PM

If MJ had the shooters around him to keep defenses honest, he would kill it today.

^^^^ This... Previous eras didn't have 3-point shooters to space out defenders - posters itt aren't acknowledging spacing AT ALL, even though it's the most important aspect of offense.. Defenders are either faced with making extra rotations due to spacing/spaced-out defenders (today's game), or having less rotations due to no spacing/bunched-up defenders (previous eras).

Today's defensive rotations/schemes merely offset the spacing, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. ORtg has ranged between 105 and 108 since 1980, excluding a brief downswing from 1999-2004.

The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.. Notice how (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html) as 3-pointers increase over the years, offensive rebounding rate declines, which reduces ORtg - that's just how ORtg is calculated - the higher proportion of 2-pointers taken in previous eras resulted in higher offensive rebounding rate, which inflated ORtg - this is statistical fact.. Nonetheless, the rule changes in 2005 began to inflate ORtg again, and it reached all-time highs from 2008-2011.

But again, regardless of these minor shifts, ORtg has remained within the 105-108 range for 30 years - stable ORtg over the years proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).

3ball

01-27-2016, 07:28 PM

Debating what Jordan could and couldn't have done with the 3 point shot seems kind of useless though 3ball. As much as I like reading your analysis because I think it's sound, it feels like you're using pseudo-analysis to fight your argument here.

You must be referring to the many other posters who have cluttered this thread with a meaningless and irrelevant debate on what kind of 3-point shooter MJ would be.

The only things I've said regarding MJ's three-point shooting is that his form is better than 99% of today's players, and he said himself that he didn't want to shoot a lot of 3-pointers because he thought it would take away from his game.

These are both facts that I merely presented - the only opinion that I inserted is that I didn't think MJ was lying when he said that (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2CyJdCq-zU&t=0m6s)).

Offtopic but watching these videos of old Bulls games sometimes makes me feel like it's not playing at normal speed because of Jordan's hang time.

Indeed - Dragonyeuw has the best approach to evaluating what MJ would do - if 6'3" westbrook and 6'4" wade can be 30 ppg scoring champs with far worse midrange and the same 3-point prowess as MJ, then prime MJ (or any Bulls version of MJ) would do substantially better than they did.

Now here's my real analysis - I base it on the eyetest - MJ's at-rim and slashing ability wouldn't just be elite in today's game - it would be the best - the following plays are a different TIER of both skill and athletic ability from what wade and westbrook are capable of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=12m07s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=8m51s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=13m24s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=17m01s

I'm sure most of us are still on board with Curry not being Jordan quite yet but he's completely outmatching teams right now much more than he ever did last season.

Curry will never come close to Jordan, because he'll never be the best offensive player in the league for 10 straight seasons (87'-93', 96'-98'), while also being the best defender at his position - Curry will NEVER come close to these things.. This thread deals with this season ONLY, since it's the first season where Curry is the league's best offensive player.

btw, everyone in this forum worships 2000 prime Shaq and agrees that he was extremely dominant - but as the stats show (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12088374&postcount=10), 34/35 year old MJ scored a far higher proportion of his team's points in 1997 and 1998 than prime Shaq did in 2000.

If that doesn't let you know the different animal that MJ was, then nothing will.. (Shaq got twice the rebs and blk, but MJ got twice the assists and stls)..