Can we all agree Hakeem in 93-94 is the GOAT single season?

[Chadwin]

MVP
DPOY
Finals MVP
won a title carrying a team with no other all-stars or all-nba players

[riseagainst]

Only reason he has a FMVP and a ring that year is because MJ wasn't playing.

[La Frescobaldi]

Of course not.

[CavaliersFTW]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eJhr4-Fotm0/Vl_IcB7eCgI/AAAAAAAAHXY/cz6PdKePmio/s0-Ic42/Wilt1967.jpg

[Gileraracer]

Show me some stats

[Dr Hawk]

Definitely in the discussion

[Chadwin]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eJhr4-Fotm0/Vl_IcB7eCgI/AAAAAAAAHXY/cz6PdKePmio/s0-Ic42/Wilt1967.jpg

had another all-nba player on his team
obligatory weak era

[Wade's Rings]

Nobody Touches Jordan's blog on why it's the GOAT Playoff Run, it's a long read.


In 1994, Hakeem Olajuwon had what is in my opinion the greatest individual playoff run of all-time. As has been mentioned a few times, Hakeem Olajuwon is the only player in history to ever lead a championship team in 5/5 categories for an entire playoff run. Essentially, Hakeem was the best scorer, rebounder, passer, stealer, shot-blocker, and best overall defender on his team - and perhaps all-time - during the 1994 Playoffs on the way to the championship. Nobody else can say they carried as big of a load during a championship, though as we saw, Jordan nearly did it in 1997.

The other remarkable thing about this title run is that Hakeem became the only player to win the title without another Hall of Famer and without another player who made the all-star team. Otis Thorpe was an all star in 1992, but in the 12 games Hakeem missed that year, Thorpe "led" the Rockets to a 2-10 record, causing them to miss the playoffs. Sam Cassel was a rookie in 1994 and didn't become an all-star until 2004 while playing with Garnett. Rudy Tomjanovich also is not a Hall of Fame coach, and never coached a team without Hakeem to the playoffs.

No player before or since has won a title without a Hall of Fame coach or teammate and without an all-star, and no player before or since has led a championship team in every one of the 5 categories during the playoffs. Hakeem did both at the same time, while playing arguably the best defense of all-time. To get an idea of how big a load Hakeem had to carry, you have to look at the overall picture of how long Hakeem was carrying his team, not just looking at 1994 alone.

The Rockets were the 2-seed in the 1994 Playoffs, so they played a good 47-35 Blazers team in the first round with Clyde Drexler leading the way. The Blazers also added Rod Strickland after losing the 1992 Finals, and had much of the remaining supporting cast from the 1992 team that made the Finals in Buck Williams, Jerome Kersey, Cliff Robinson, and Terry Porter. Hakeem carried his team past the first round with an incredible 34-11-5-2-4 on 50%. In Game 2 against the Blazers, Hakeem had 46-8-4-4-6 on 53%, achieving the rare accomplishment of a playoff 5-by-4 (at least 4 in each stat). Nobody has ever had a playoff 5-by-5, so a playoff 5-by-4 is an incredible accomplishment.

Then the Rockets played the Barkley and Kevin Johnson 56-26 Suns in the WCSF, the same team that made the 1993 Finals the previous year. Kevin Johnson, as we've seen in Section 25, is probably the most underrated point guard of all-time, and should have been a 1st-ballot Hall of Famer. KJ averaged an insane 27-4-10 on 44% for the series while Hakeem's interior presence and defense troubled Barkley. Barkley had 23-13-4 but a sub-par 46% FG for a PF. Hakeem put up another unbelievable stat line in 29-14-5-1-4 on 56% - along with his arguably GOAT defense, and carried them in Game 7 as well. Hakeem put up a crazy 37-17-5 with 3 blocks on 55% in Game 7 to carry them to the WCF where they faced Stockton and Malone's Jazz.

Hakeem went from facing the Suns with a top 10 PG and top 10 PF of all-time to facing the 53-29 Jazz with a top 5 PG and top 5 PF of all-time. Hakeem also carried his team to a huge degree in this series, putting up 28-10-4-3-5 on 50%, and his defense was a huge reason that Karl Malone shot a sub-par 43% FG. Hakeem had not one, but two 5-by-4s in the 1994 WCF. In the Game 3 loss, Hakeem had 29-13-5-4-4 on 44%. In Game 5 to clinch a Finals appearance, Hakeem put up 22-10-6-4-7 on 47%, coming just one steal short of recording the only playoff 5-by-5 in NBA history.

Ben Wallace is the only other player in history with multiple playoff 5-by-4s, and he only did it twice. Even so, Ben's 5-by-4s weren't nearly as impressive as Hakeem's. He had 7-9-5-4-4 in Game 4 against the 2004 Bucks, and 7-10-4-4-7 against the 2005 Sixers. Hakeem had two 5-by-4s in the 1994 WCF alone, and 3 in the 1994 Playoff run alone. That is a mind-blowing feat, considering only one other person has ever done it twice in their entire playoff career. Hakeem has the most playoff 5-by-4s in history with 8 - clear proof that Hakeem is the most well-rounded player of all-time, as if leading a championship team in 5/5 categories combined with arguably GOAT defense wasn't enough.

Then came the 1994 Finals against one of the greatest defenses and one of the best defensive frontcourts of all-time - the Knicks with Patrick Ewing, Charles Oakley, Charles Smith, and the underrated Anthony Mason. Ewing set a then-record for blocks in an NBA Finals, since broken by Tim Duncan in 2003, and Anthony Mason is one of the most underrated defenders of all-time.

In the 1994 Finals, Hakeem had extremely limited offensive help as his top 3 scorers all shot under 43%. This is the only time since 1961 that the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th scoring options all shot under 43% on a championship team during the Finals.

Maxwell 13 ppg on 37%
Horry 10 ppg on 32%
Cassel 10 ppg on 42%

Hakeem had to win the 1994 Finals with less help than LeBron did in the 2007 Finals, and the 2007 Cavs also had better defensive help compared to Hakeem's Rockets, as they held the Spurs to 85 or less in 3 out of 4 games, whereas even with Hakeem shutting down Ewing, the Rockets held the Knicks to 85 or less in 3/7 games. Every game of the 1994 Finals was decided by single digits, in spite of the fact that Hakeem totally shut down the Knicks' best player in Patrick Ewing.

In Game 1, the only help Hakeem had was 14 points and 16 rebounds from Otis Thorpe. Maxwell had 11-3-3 on 4/16 (25%), Horry had 9-7-4 on 3/10 (30%), Cassell had 8-6-3 on 50%, and Kenny Smith had 3-2-5 on 25%. Hakeem carried them with 28-10-1-3-2 on 46% and shut down Ewing to get them the win.

In Game 3 Hakeem led the team in 5/5 categories, dropping 21-11-7-1-7, and made the go-ahead assist to Cassell with 33 seconds left to get the win. And once again he shut down Ewing. It was through Hakeem leading the team in every category that his teammates were able to step up in Game 3.

In Game 6 Hakeem put up 30-10-2-1-4 on 52% and had little help from his teammates. Herrera had 12 points on 6/6 FG, but then he had 3-10-6 from Thorpe, 11-9-4 on 30% from Horry, 10-1-5 on 31% from Maxwell. Hakeem again shut down Ewing and made the series-saving block on Starks.

In Game 7, Hakeem had a sub-par shooting performance but led the Rockets in 4/5 categories putting up 25-10-7-1-3 on 40% and once again shutting down Ewing. Ewing only had one good game out of seven in the entire series, during Game 5. Through Hakeem's playmaking and leading the team in assists, Maxwell had a good game of 21 points on 55%.

Similar to Jordan in 1997, Hakeem had minimal help in the majority of his wins and made the clutch plays in Game 3 and 6 to get the win. And on top of that, he shut down the Knicks' best player in 6 out of 7 games of the series. Now let's recap why this is the greatest playoff run of all-time

1. Hakeem led the team in 5/5 categories for the entire playoffs, while also playing arguably GOAT defense

No other player has ever been the best scorer, rebounder, passer, stealer, shot-blocker, and arguably GOAT defender for their team in any championship run. Jordan came close in 1997, but he was barely short in rebounds and blocks, and although he may be the best perimeter defender ever, the best perimeter defenders can't match the best big men defensively.

Hakeem shut down Ewing in all but one game of the 1994 Finals, and also forced Malone to shoot a sub-par 43% FG in the 1994 WCF. His interior presence and defense also limited Barkley and forced Kevin Johnson to take over as the best player for the Suns. Not only did Hakeem lead them in every category, he locked down some of the greatest players in history and while anchoring his defense.

2. Hakeem had three 5-by-4s in the 1994 Playoff run alone

As we stated earlier, Hakeem had a 5-by-4 against the Blazers and two 5-by-4s in the WCF against the Jazz, coming one steal shy of the only playoff 5-by-5 in history during Game 5. Ben Wallace is the only other player in history with two playoff 5-by-4s in his entire playoff career, but Hakeem did it twice in the 1994 WCF alone and 3 times in the 1994 Playoffs alone, and while putting up much more impressive numbers than Wallace did in his 5-by-4s. Along with leading the team in 5/5 and his arguably GOAT defense, this cements that Hakeem is the most well-rounded and complete player of all-time.

3. Hakeem won without an All-star or a Hall of Fame teammate/coach

Every other player who led a team to the championship had either a Hall of Fame teammate/coach or a player who made the all-star team that year. Hakeem had neither, and Tomjanovich never coached a team without Hakeem to the playoffs. Hakeem was as close to winning the title alone as you can get. And the incredible part is he did this while also leading the team in every category. Neither of these accomplishments have been done before or since, but Hakeem did both at the same time. That's the epitome of carrying a team.

4. Hakeem was incredibly clutch

His Game 7 performance against the Suns and Knicks were incredible. He also made the go-ahead assist to Cassel in Game 3 against the Knicks and the series-saving block on Starks in Game 6. Similar to how Jordan made a game-winning play in 3/4 wins of the 1997 Finals, Hakeem also made 2 game-winning plays in the 1994 Finals.

5. Hakeem's Finals performance

The 1994 Rockets became the first team since 1961 to win the title with the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th scoring options all shooting under 43%. In comparing Hakeem's Rockets to the 2007 Cavs, Hakeem had less help in the Finals compared to Lebron on both ends but still got the win

1994 Finals
Maxwell 13 ppg on 37%
Horry 10 ppg on 32%
Cassel 10 ppg on 42%

[CavaliersFTW]

had another all-nba player on his team
obligatory weak era
He lead the league let alone his team in practically every major statistical category include some that shattered records that still stand today.

Team just bulldozed the entire league that year. Toyed with them like a Killer Whale playing with a seal. Wilt entirely and unanimously responsible for it.

Sorry that Hakeems run is not as impressive. Did he even lead the league in rebounding? Inexcusable to compare him to Wilt if he didn't have the league by the balls throughout the entire season like Wilt.

[Chadwin]

Nobody Touches Jordan's blog on why it's the GOAT Playoff Run, it's a long read.

:applause: legendary

[CavaliersFTW]

:applause: legendary
That guy's just an insanely biased 90's nut. Case in point - his online alias.

[feyki]

Beside of 47-52 Mikan ;

67 Wilt
72 Kareem
62 Russell
91 Jordan
74 Kareem
90 Jordan
77 Kareem
09 Lebron
03 Duncan
94 Hakeem

[SouBeachTalents]

The top 5 GOAT seasons in no order

1. '67 Wilt
2. '91 Jordan
3. '94 Hakeem
4. '00 Shaq
5. '03 Duncan

[Dr Hawk]

The top 5 GOAT seasons in no order

1. '67 Wilt
2. '91 Jordan
3. '94 Hakeem
4. '00 Shaq
5. '03 Duncan

Hmmmmmmm, I agree I think

[CavaliersFTW]

Nobody should sleep on 1975 Rick Barry

[ArbitraryWater]

Nobody should sleep on 1975 Rick Barry

:roll: :roll:

[CavaliersFTW]

:roll: :roll:
Well I'm not saying it's the GOAT season but it's definitely a top tier season all-time based on OP's criteria. He was snubbed of MVP that season. Ring+check his $tats :lol

[tmacattack33]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eJhr4-Fotm0/Vl_IcB7eCgI/AAAAAAAAHXY/cz6PdKePmio/s0-Ic42/Wilt1967.jpg

Blacks first appeared in the NBA in 1950. Chuck Cooper was the first black player drafted in the NBA.[4] On April 26, 1950, Harold Hunter signed with the Washington Capitols, becoming the first African American to sign a contract with any NBA team in history.[5][6] However, Hunter was cut from the team during training camp and did not play professionally.[5][6][7] On May 24, Nathaniel "Sweetwater" Clifton was the second African-American player to sign an NBA contract.[8][9][a] Earl Lloyd was the first to play in the NBA.[4] Hank DeZonie also played that year.[11] In 1953, Don Barksdale became the first African American to play in an NBA All-Star Game.[12] With the emergence of African-American players by the 1960s, the NBA game was stylistically being played faster and above the rim. Many of the league's great players were black. At that time, African Americans believed they were limited by an unofficial league quota of four black players per team.[13]

If the league didn't fully include blacks, i'm sorry but that talent pool is weak.

Take half the black players out of the league today. It basically becomes half as good.

Not to mention the fact that there weren't any international players back then.

[Showtime2001]

I wouldn't say its the greatest but it definately top 5 in my book.

[AirBonner]

Greatest indeed. Proves how watered down the league was that this guy single handedly dominated. Also proves how stacked mj teams were

[KungFuJoe]

Hakeem is a great player but if MJ never retired he'd be mentioned alongside Ewing.

[Marchesk]

Hakeem is a great player but if MJ never retired he'd be mentioned alongside Ewing.

Jordan is so good that his retirement lifted Hakeem into the top 10. :bowdown:

[MiseryCityTexas]

Only reason he has a FMVP and a ring that year is because MJ wasn't playing.

Yet Hakeem made it all the way to the NBA finals first in the mid 80s long before Jordan did, and he wasn't even in his absolute prime yet. Yet he upset prime Magic and prime Worthy in the western conference finals.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Hakeem is a great player but if MJ never retired he'd be mentioned alongside Ewing.

Not really because Hakeem's Rockets upset the Showtime Lakers in the mid 80s. Patrick Ewing's Knicks teams would probably never beat a Lakers team that good in a 7 game play-off series.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Mikan (You could make a case for any of his seasons) but 1950 was my favorite in particular. The way he dominated the Finals against a HOFer (the player who swept Wilt in the first round 11 years later).

[MiseryCityTexas]

Nobody should sleep on 1975 Rick Barry


Rick Barry was insanely underrated when it came to creating his own shot off the dribble, and I don't even have to bring up his jump shooting as he's easily probably the greatest freethrow shooter of all time, or at least one of the greatest. His penetrate and dish game was insanely underrated also. He used to always spot up Phil Smith, Jamal Wilkes, George Johnson, Clifford Ray, Charles Johnson, and Butch Beard for easy wide open layups and dunks. Phil Smith was also very underrated athletically. That guy had some major hops for a player that played in his era.

[SpaceJam]

Hakeem doesn't get the respect he deserves, isn't dude like the only big man to be top 10 in blocks and steals or something like that

[3ball]

Hakeem doesn't get the respect he deserves, isn't dude like the only big man to be top 10 in blocks and steals or something like that


true

hakeeem > shaq

[MiseryCityTexas]

People saying Rick Barry won a championship with little or no help at all was/is some bullshit also. Keith "Jamal" Wilkes, Butch Beard, and Phil Smith were NBA AllStars at one point of they're careers either before or after the Warriors won the championship in 74-75, and even though Jeff Mullens was past his prime on that 74-75 Warriors championship team, he was still a previous NBA superstar with play-off experience that helped with team locker room chemsitry, and was still a very effective role player off the bench that had al ot left in the tank. Clifford Ray never made an Allstar team, but he still managed to put up Ben Wallace type of numbers throughout most of his career especially in the Warriors championship season. So please believe that Rick Barry had a solid championship Warriors team regardless of what the critics say about him having no help.

[3ball]

Yet Hakeem made it all the way to the NBA finals first in the mid 80s long before Jordan did, and he wasn't even in his absolute prime yet. Yet he upset prime Magic and prime Worthy in the western conference finals.



Who cares - he had prime Ralph Sampson, who was a superstar - together they were called the twin towers.

Ralph was All-NBA second team in 1985, and averaged 19/10 and 1.7 blk in 1986 RS and playoffs.

So that's a lot of help - much more than MJ had when he won championship in 1991 and 1998..

Look it up - MJ had no all-stars or all-nba players in 1991, and his help in 1998 playoffs was WOAT - again, look it up.

[3ball]

MVP
DPOY
Finals MVP

won a title carrying a team with no other all-stars or all-nba players


Weak era because the GOAT had just retired, and his GOAT team was now a 2nd Round team.

Also, the GOAT won scoring title, MVP, championship, and FMVP in 1991 with no other all-stars or all-nba players, and he outplayed a top 5 all-time player in Finals (Magic Johnson, who was runner-up for MVP in 1991).

THAT is superior to what Hakeem did in 1994 in a watered down era that was missing one of the great all-time teams (MJ's Bulls)... All facts.

[SouBeachTalents]

Weak era because the GOAT had just retired, and his GOAT team was now a 2nd Round team.

Also, the GOAT won scoring title, MVP, championship, and FMVP in 1991 with no other all-stars or all-nba players, and he outplayed a top 5 all-time player in Finals (Magic Johnson, who was runner-up for MVP in 1991).

THAT is superior to what Hakeem did in 1994 in a watered down era that was missing one of the great all-time teams (MJ's Bulls)... All facts.

So if current Kobe was on a championship team, he'd be considered more help/ a better player than '91 Pippen?

[Prime_Shaq]

Not unanimous but its up there

[MiseryCityTexas]

Who cares - he had prime Ralph Sampson, who was a superstar - together they were called the twin towers.

Ralph was All-NBA second team in 1985, and averaged 19/10 and 1.7 blk in 1986 RS and playoffs.

So that's a lot of help - much more than MJ had when he won championship in 1991 and 1998..

Look it up - MJ had no all-stars or all-nba players in 1991, and his help in 1998 playoffs was WOAT - again, look it up.

Yeah Hakeem's 80s Rockets teams could probably win a championship easily in today's era of basketball. Even the ones that had washed up Sleepy Floyd on them. Can't argue with what you said about Jordan's Bulls either. Jordan's Bulls were just mediocre play-off teams in the mid 80s.

[3ball]

Yeah Hakeem's 80s Rockets teams could probably win a championship easily in today's era of basketball. Even the ones that had washed up Sleepy Floyd on them. Can't argue with what you said about Jordan's Bulls either. Jordan's Bulls were just mediocre play-off teams in the mid 80s.


yeah, they didn't have ralph frieking sampson

they had dave corzine

[3ball]

So if current Kobe was on a championship team, he'd be considered more help/ a better player than '91 Pippen?


Not sure the point of your question... Obviously, the MJ's Pippen was better than current Kobe.

But let's look at the year 2000 - this was Shaq's most dominant year - it was his uber-peak prime and everyone acknowledges that his dominance was among the best ever.

However, just 2-3 years earlier in 1997 and 1998, the 34-35 year old, past-prime MJ scored a FAR higher proportion of his team's points than prime Shaq:


....................Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <<< these are links
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 35.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 35.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)


(Shaq got twice the rebounds and blocks, but MJ got twice the assists and steals, so we're left with points)

These stats never surprised me when I found them - I was simply doing what I always do, which is find stats that support what I saw with my own eyes..

But you guys never watched MJ, and have no idea how dominant he was, so I'm assuming this kind of shit MUST surprise you.. But it shouldn't - Shaq was in his prime in 1998 too, yet MJ got MVP, all-star MVP, Finals MVP, scoring championship, and 1st team all-defense (best defender at his position).

Btw, Jordan's 1997/1998 teams were supposed to be more "stacked" (:rolleyes:) than the first 3-peat teams from his prime - so just imagine if we had the stats from MJ's prime - he probably scored 60-70% of his team's points while on the floor.

Also, in addition to carrying the GOAT scoring load shown above, MJ also led his team in assist % for for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49)... And he was the team's best defender - this was commonly known AT THE TIME (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s) (before young fans' revisionist history)...

No one has ever led their team in scoring by THAT MUCH (MJ scored at least 10 ppg more than Pippen for every series of their playoff careers), while also leading the team in passing and being the best defender at his position - no one comes close to carrying this load.
.

[dhsilv]

Blacks first appeared in the NBA in 1950. Chuck Cooper was the first black player drafted in the NBA.[4] On April 26, 1950, Harold Hunter signed with the Washington Capitols, becoming the first African American to sign a contract with any NBA team in history.[5][6] However, Hunter was cut from the team during training camp and did not play professionally.[5][6][7] On May 24, Nathaniel "Sweetwater" Clifton was the second African-American player to sign an NBA contract.[8][9][a] Earl Lloyd was the first to play in the NBA.[4] Hank DeZonie also played that year.[11] In 1953, Don Barksdale became the first African American to play in an NBA All-Star Game.[12] With the emergence of African-American players by the 1960s, the NBA game was stylistically being played faster and above the rim. Many of the league's great players were black. At that time, African Americans believed they were limited by an unofficial league quota of four black players per team.[13]

If the league didn't fully include blacks, i'm sorry but that talent pool is weak.

Take half the black players out of the league today. It basically becomes half as good.

Not to mention the fact that there weren't any international players back then.

White people played more basketball back then vs today US only. The idea that "white" international players are somehow better than american is silly.

My point being that you shouldn't discount that era just on that issue so fast. Not even that it's wrong just I think you're justification is a bit weak.

[dhsilv]

Yet Hakeem made it all the way to the NBA finals first in the mid 80s long before Jordan did, and he wasn't even in his absolute prime yet. Yet he upset prime Magic and prime Worthy in the western conference finals.

was he even the best player on that team?

[dhsilv]

Hakeem doesn't get the respect he deserves, isn't dude like the only big man to be top 10 in blocks and steals or something like that

Two stats that correlate with success but are in and of themselves meaningless stats...

I never know when people are serious or not. Like that could be a legit argument for him or a total diss and I'm not sure. Meaningless box score stats like that are so iffy.

[MiseryCityTexas]

was he even the best player on that team?

Akeem was the star player. He did majority of the scoring in the mid 80 finals against the Celtics.

[houston]

overrated title run

duncan 03>>>hakeem 94

[dhsilv]

Akeem was the star player. He did majority of the scoring in the mid 80 finals against the Celtics.

I asked for best and you talk scoring? I said best player....not who scores points. Christ...

[ClipperRevival]

It's up there but it's unfair to say that one particular season stands above the rest. Russell would've had several seasons where he won all 3 if they had DPOY and FMVP his entire career.

Also, DPOY naturally favors bigs so it makes it harder for a great wing to get all 3. Another rare feat is winning the MVP, FMVP and scoring title. Done only by 3 men:

KAJ - 1971
Shaq - 2000
MJ - 4 times

[SpaceJam]

It's up there but it's unfair to say that one particular season stands above the rest. Russell would've had several seasons where he won all 3 if they had DPOY and FMVP his entire career.

Also, DPOY naturally favors bigs so it makes it harder for a great wing to get all 3. Another rare feat is winning the MVP, FMVP and scoring title. Done only by 3 men:

KAJ - 1971
Shaq - 2000
MJ - 6 times

MJ has 5 MVPs

[Smoke117]

Weak era because the GOAT had just retired, and his GOAT team was now a 2nd Round team.

Also, the GOAT won scoring title, MVP, championship, and FMVP in 1991 with no other all-stars or all-nba players, and he outplayed a top 5 all-time player in Finals (Magic Johnson, who was runner-up for MVP in 1991).

THAT is superior to what Hakeem did in 1994 in a watered down era that was missing one of the great all-time teams (MJ's Bulls)... All facts.

1-9

[ClipperRevival]

MJ has 5 MVPs

Yeah, but he won 1 of those outside of his championship season. I mean MVP, FMVP and scoring title in the same season.

[Smoke117]

It's up there but it's unfair to say that one particular season stands above the rest. Russell would've had several seasons where he won all 3 if they had DPOY and FMVP his entire career.

Also, DPOY naturally favors bigs so it makes it harder for a great wing to get all 3. Another rare feat is winning the MVP, FMVP and scoring title. Done only by 4 men:

KAJ - 1971
Shaq - 2000
MJ - 4 times

Wing players don't deserve them...they don't affect the game enough. Only Pippen in that 95 season (led the league in drating as a sf and had Bulls 2nd in defense) has deserved the DPOY as a non big man. That year Jordan received it Hakeem was by far the best defensive player in the league. It's honestly amusing how they gave it to Hakeem in 93 and 94 and not during his most dominant years defensively...which were 88, 89, and 90.

[SpaceJam]

Yeah, but he won 1 of those outside of his championship season. I mean MVP, FMVP and scoring title in the same season.

I know, I'm just saying you had it as 6 times, and with 5 MVPs that is impossible :cheers:

[ClipperRevival]

I know, I'm just saying you had it as 6 times, and with 5 MVPs that is impossible :cheers:

Yup. Made the correction.

[dhsilv]

It's up there but it's unfair to say that one particular season stands above the rest. Russell would've had several seasons where he won all 3 if they had DPOY and FMVP his entire career.

Also, DPOY naturally favors bigs so it makes it harder for a great wing to get all 3. Another rare feat is winning the MVP, FMVP and scoring title. Done only by 3 men:

KAJ - 1971
Shaq - 2000
MJ - 4 times

But the scoring title is basically meaningless...if not a negative. Just worth pointing out. Thus the short list....

[dhsilv]

Wing players don't deserve them...they don't affect the game enough. Only Pippen in that 95 season (led the league in drating as a sf and had Bulls 2nd in defense) has deserved the DPOY as a non big man. That year Jordan received it Hakeem was by far the best defensive player in the league. It's honestly amusing how they gave it to Hakeem in 93 and 94 and not during his most dominant years defensively...which were 88, 89, and 90.

Pip was what 6'9 or 6'10...he might as well be a big lol

[ClipperRevival]

Wing players don't deserve them...they don't affect the game enough. Only Pippen in that 95 season (led the league in drating as a sf and had Bulls 2nd in defense) has deserved the DPOY as a non big man. That year Jordan received it Hakeem was by far the best defensive player in the league. It's honestly amusing how they gave it to Hakeem in 93 and 94 and not during his most dominant years defensively...which were 88, 89, and 90.

Well, naturally a dominant big is more impactful but in 1988, MJ was at his absolute peak as a defender with GOAT level impact numbers like 3.2 spg and an unheard of 1.6 bpg. He was all over the place.

And the reason why Hakeem's numbers dipped a bit in bpg and rpg in the early 90's was because he had to carry more of a burden offensively but he was still a dominant D force.

[LAZERUSS]

I get a kick out of the same old, "Hakeem didn't have any help in his '94 title run", story.

Take a look at what Ewing had in the Finals. His supporting cast was no better than Hakeem's. True, Hakeem outplayed him, but so what? He was a better player (BTW, Hakeem was only the FOURTH best rebounder in that series, and in fact, was outrebounded by a teammate.)

In any case, maybe someone here can also provide us all here with a list of quality CENTERS that Hakeem faced in the first three rounds of the '94 playoffs? I don't see ANY. The Blazers basically had a PF, Cliff Robinson, trying to defend him. The Suns had the "Three Stooges" of Joe Kleine, Oliver Miller, and Mark West. And Utah had the great Felton Spencer. THAT was Hakeem's "competition" leading up to his Finals. Nothing but bums.

[ClipperRevival]

But the scoring title is basically meaningless...if not a negative. Just worth pointing out. Thus the short list....

You're kidding right? When you win a title, that means your team is playing optimal ball or the right way most of the time so it can't be a negative. And in that scenario, if one guy is still able to lead the league in scoring AND win a title AND win FMVP AND win MVP, that pretty much means you were carrying a huge burden and still played bball the right way. Winning ball.

Winning the scoring title is a negative if your team doesn't do sh't or if you get yours at the expense of everyone else. No team has ever won a ring with one guy dominating the ball. The fact that these guys were able to carry a huge offensive burden and still play optimal ball is a huge credit to them.

[jstern]

The way it works is that since that happened over 20 years ago, then no. But if that happened last year, and people recently saw it live, and it's fresh in their heads, then yes. Because people are prisoners of the moment. Those are pretty big accomplishments.

[dhsilv]

You're kidding right? When you win a title, that means your team is playing optimal ball or the right way most of the time so it can't be a negative. And in that scenario, if one guy is still able to lead the league in scoring AND win a title AND win FMVP AND win MVP, that pretty much means you were carrying a huge burden and still played bball the right way. Winning ball.

Winning the scoring title is a negative if your team doesn't do sh't or if you get yours at the expense of everyone else. No team has ever won a ring with one guy dominating the ball. The fact that these guys were able to carry a huge offensive burden and still play optimal ball is a huge credit to them.

If winning the scoring title isn't in general positive, those who do it are flukes but in being that it shouldn't be over valued. It should be seen as an oddity not a bonus on a guy's resume. This is the classic confused mistakes that Jordan left fans with.

[Smoke117]

Well, naturally a dominant big is more impactful but in 1988, MJ was at his absolute peak as a defender with GOAT level impact numbers like 3.2 spg and an unheard of 1.6 bpg. He was all over the place.

And the reason why Hakeem's numbers dipped a bit in bpg and rpg in the early 90's was because he had to carry more of a burden offensively but he was still a dominant D force.

I didn't say he still wasn't great...Robinson himself wasn't as dominant in 94 and 95 when he was scoring more either...but they were still the two best defensive players in the league. My point is that Hakeem is the greatest and most dominant defensive player in the modern era (lets say 1980 to the present) and during his absolute best defensive seasons they were giving it to lesser players like Jordan and Rodman. It goes to show how the awards are all about popularity...because as soon as the Rockets were a legit contender he got those awards he deserved years earlier.

[ClipperRevival]

If winning the scoring title isn't in general positive, those who do it are flukes but in being that it shouldn't be over valued. It should be seen as an oddity not a bonus on a guy's resume. This is the classic confused mistakes that Jordan left fans with.

Winning a scoring title in itself is special. Of course context is key. Being on a bad team, taking 28-30 shots a game on bad efficiency is the worst way to do it. Winning it on a very good team is impressive. Winning it and also winning the title means you are special. MJ, Shaq and KAJ are all transcendent talents. They didn't accomplish this rare feat by accident nor is it some oddity. It happened because they were that good and able to carry that huge of an offensive burden and still not kill team flow/chemistry

[MiseryCityTexas]

I get a kick out of the same old, "Hakeem didn't have any help in his '94 title run", story.

Take a look at what Ewing had in the Finals. His supporting cast was no better than Hakeem's. True, Hakeem outplayed him, but so what? He was a better player (BTW, Hakeem was only the FOURTH best rebounder in that series, and in fact, was outrebounded by a teammate.)

In any case, maybe someone here can also provide us all here with a list of quality CENTERS that Hakeem faced in the first three rounds of the '94 playoffs? I don't see ANY. The Blazers basically had a PF, Cliff Robinson, trying to defend him. The Suns had the "Three Stooges" of Joe Kleine, Oliver Miller, and Mark West. And Utah had the great Felton Spencer. THAT was Hakeem's "competition" leading up to his Finals. Nothing but bums.


Yeah Hakeem basically cakewalked to the NBA Finals that season.

[Smoke117]

Winning a scoring title in itself is special. Of course context is key. Being on a bad team, taking 28-30 shots a game on bad efficiency is the worst way to do it. Winning it on a very good team is impressive. Winning it and also winning the title means you are special. MJ, Shaq and KAJ are all transcendent talents. They didn't accomplish this rare feat by accident nor is it some oddity. It happened because they were that good and able to carry that huge of an offensive burden and still not kill team flow/chemistry

Not really...Allen Iverson proved that. Jerry Stackhouse also averaged 29.8ppg on the Pistons who won 32 games...you can look a lot better than you really are in this league if you get enough leeway.

[AirBonner]

Weak era because the GOAT had just retired, and his GOAT team was now a 2nd Round team.

Also, the GOAT won scoring title, MVP, championship, and FMVP in 1991 with no other all-stars or all-nba players, and he outplayed a top 5 all-time player in Finals (Magic Johnson, who was runner-up for MVP in 1991).

THAT is superior to what Hakeem did in 1994 in a watered down era that was missing one of the great all-time teams (MJ's Bulls)... All facts.
So you saying all of Jordan's titles are in a weak era? Agree. Had Bird not had to retire Jordan would be lucky to have 3 titles.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

2003 Duncan.

[Smoke117]

Pip was what 6'9 or 6'10...he might as well be a big lol

...uh...barefoot Pippen is 6'6". Why does everyone want to make him taller because of his ridiculous 7'2" wingspan? He was never actually as tall as everyone wants to believe height wise...but a wingspan makes up a lot for height. Look at Dwyane Wade...he's undersized in height for a sg at 6'4"...but he has a 6'10" wingspan and frankly is built like a tank and stronger than most taller sg's anyway...but that's besides the point...the point is, length makes up for height every time.

[3ball]

...uh...barefoot Pippen is 6'6". Why does everyone want to make him taller because of his ridiculous 7'2" wingspan? He was never actually as tall as everyone wants to believe height wise.
I played with Anthony Parker at BU, and after he played for the USA Select team and played Pippen in 1996, he said Pippen was more like 6'9"

just an fyi - player heights are listed wrongly all the time, usually on purpose - that isn't mumbo jumbo - it's a well-known fact

[Lebron23]

I played with Anthony Parker at BU, and after he played for the USA Select team and played Pippen in 1996, he said Pippen was more like 6'9"

just an fyi - player heights are listed wrongly all the time, usually on purpose - that isn't mumbo jumbo - it's a well-known fact


What's your name? And did you expect Parker to become the future euroleague GOAT??

[Odinn]

1999-2000 Shaq is a better choice.

[Chadwin]

Weak era because the GOAT had just retired, and his GOAT team was now a 2nd Round team.

Also, the GOAT won scoring title, MVP, championship, and FMVP in 1991 with no other all-stars or all-nba players, and he outplayed a top 5 all-time player in Finals (Magic Johnson, who was runner-up for MVP in 1991).

THAT is superior to what Hakeem did in 1994 in a watered down era that was missing one of the great all-time teams (MJ's Bulls)... All facts.

Pippen in 1991 was better than anyone Hakeem had.