Remember when 34-35 year old MJ was more dominant than 2000 Shaq?

[3ball]

.
.........Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <---- these are links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 35.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 35.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)




.......Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 57.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 54.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 53.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 59.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 56.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 57.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 59.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 51.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 44.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 55.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)



The stats show that old MJ scored a far higher proportion of his teams points than prime Shaq, especially in the 4th... (Shaq had twice the rebounds and blocks, but MJ had twice the assists and steals, so we're left with the scoring shown above).

These stats shouldn't be a surprise - think about it - in 1997 and 1998, Shaq was in his prime too, but you never heard about Shaq - MJ was the best player in the game.. He won MVP in 1998 over Shaq.. He also destroyed the Jazz in 1997 and 1998 Finals, while Shaq's Lakers lost 4-1 and 4-0 to the same Jazz..

And Shaq's 1997 and 1998 Lakers were stacked to the brim - in 1997, they had all-star Eddie Jones, Van Exel, Cedric Ceballos, Robert Horry, Elden Campbell (15/8 and 1.5 blk), and rookie Kobe (8 ppg in 16 minutes).. But they were destroyed 4-1 by the Utah Jazz in ECSF... Jordan went on to dominate the Jazz in the Finals, with the game-winner in Game 1, the game-winner in Game 5 (flu game), and the series-winning assist to Kerr in Game 6 (which spear-headed Kerr's career).

In 1998, Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers (Van Exel, Eddie Jones, Kobe) were FAR more talented than the Jordan's old Bulls, but were swept AGAIN by the Utah Jazz.. Once again, MJ ripped the Jazz's heart out in the Finals, despite Pippen's 15 ppg on 41% and Rodman's horrific 4/8 averages (his old, washed-up ass wasn't even a starter).
.

[sportjames23]

mjeatingpopcorn.gif

[brooks_thompson]

Alright now you're just literally repeating yourself. I feel bad for you, man. It can be tough to get out of comfort zones and to learn to conquer fixations, but it is possible. Sure, I'm an anonymous dude on the internet, but I hope you at least consider the possibility of doing these things.

[Pushxx]

Alright now you're just literally repeating yourself. I feel bad for you, man. It can be tough to get out of comfort zones and to learn to conquer fixations, but it is possible. Sure, I'm an anonymous dude on the internet, but I hope you at least consider the possibility of doing these things.

You should see this guy's Michael Jordan archive on his computer:


a folder for photoshopped dick pics
a folder for essays
a folder for .gifs
...it goes on.


He's linked countless YouTube videos with time marks just to show MJ plays. Like multi-hour long videos and he has them all marked down exactly. He always has them on demand. I can't imagine how many notes and stats this guy keeps for this.

[3ball]

Alright now you're just literally repeating yourself. I feel bad for you, man. It can be tough to get out of comfort zones and to learn to conquer fixations, but it is possible. Sure, I'm an anonymous dude on the internet, but I hope you at least consider the possibility of doing these things.
by the look at your join date, you've been "fixated" on being an anonymous dude on the internet a lot longer than me... 4 years longer.

i hope you can get some help soon bud... 7 years... yikes

[coin24]

Anyone seen that Seinfeld episode?? This is a classic example of what happens when a guy doesn't get any sex:oldlol:

[brooks_thompson]

by the look at your join date, you've been "fixated" on being an anonymous dude on the internet a lot longer than me... 4 years longer.

i hope you can get some help soon bud... 7 years... yikes

If you truly enjoy doing what you're doing, then hey, fire away

[ralph_i_el]

Anyone seen that Seinfeld episode?? This is a classic example of what happens when a guy doesn't get any sex:oldlol:
:roll:
3ball is under house arrest for molesting his neighbors dog

[sdot_thadon]

by the look at your join date, you've been "fixated" on being an anonymous dude on the internet a lot longer than me... 4 years longer.

i hope you can get some help soon bud... 7 years... yikes
In comparison to a nut case that can't help himself? He's fine. Why not show everyone the notes for how many thousand posts and accounts you've devoted to your drug of choice trainwreck? Didn't think so.

And to the topic 3 words:

Context
never
/thread.

[3ball]

In comparison to a nut case that can't help himself? He's fine.


Your literally defending an anonymous poster who you don't know... He could be a child molester - we know he's had an online fixation for at least 7 years.





And to the topic 3 words:

Context
never
/thread


What context?... The data speaks for itself.

In 2000, Kobe averaged 15 ppg on 35% in 2000 Finals - amazingly, that's worse than Pippen's 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals - so Kobe was providing LESS help than Pippen, but Shaq was still scoring a far lower proportion of his team's points than MJ.

34-35 year old MJ was simply much more dominant than Shaq... Deal with it without coming to the defense of potential child molesters.

[LAZERUSS]

No I don't recall that, because it simply was not true.

A 2000 Shaq was FAR more dominant than a 34-35 year old MJ, and nothing you have shown proves anything different.

Nor, am I going to waste my time constantly destroying these ridiculous assertions of your's.

A 2000 Shaq >>>> a 34-35 year old Jordan.

Just deal with it and move on to some other MJ vs whoever topic you want to start.

[SexSymbol]

I'd choose MJ for the deciding game at age 34-35.
But Shaq 00 overall was definitely better and had better seasons.

[aj1987]

:roll:
3ball is under house arrest for molesting his neighbors dog
Not surprising.

[Chadwin]

You should see this guy's Michael Jordan archive on his computer:


a folder for photoshopped dick pics
a folder for essays
a folder for .gifs
...it goes on.


He's linked countless YouTube videos with time marks just to show MJ plays. Like multi-hour long videos and he has them all marked down exactly. He always has them on demand. I can't imagine how many notes and stats this guy keeps for this.

You have to admit he is the GOAT MJ archivist. If I want to know what MJ had for dinner on March 17 1996 3ball will have it.

[KobesFinger]

I look at the stats. In all of them, Jordan has a higher usage rate and higher percentage of his team's FGA. So theres that

[sdot_thadon]

You have to admit he is the GOAT MJ archivist. If I want to know what MJ had for dinner on March 17 1996 3ball will have it.
Probably still has the to-go box.

[RepMe]

Maybe Shaq's teammates were scoring more because their defenders were busy doubling and tripling Shaq. :confusedshrug:

[ShawkFactory]

I look at the stats. In all of them, Jordan has a higher usage rate and higher percentage of his team's FGA. So theres that
Does that make him a more dominant player?
No

[KobesFinger]

Does that make him a more dominant player?
No

Exactly. I'm pointing out that he scored more points because he took more shots

[ShawkFactory]

Exactly. I'm pointing out that he scored more points because he took more shots
Gotcha gotcha.

3balls will come back with something about how Jordan HAD to take more shots.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Nobody remembers because it never happened.

Peak Shaq is on the level of peak Jordan as far as impact goes. Second three-peat Jordan is like a smarter version of Kobe, but without the athletic prowess from 1990-1993.

Post a few *gifs to spruce up this non-topic. :cheers:

[ApexPredator]

OP is the most sensitive poster on ISH.

[Odinn]

It's getting sad...

[Elosha]

No I don't recall that, because it simply was not true.

A 2000 Shaq was FAR more dominant than a 34-35 year old MJ, and nothing you have shown proves anything different.

Nor, am I going to waste my time constantly destroying these ridiculous assertions of your's.

A 2000 Shaq >>>> a 34-35 year old Jordan.

Just deal with it and move on to some other MJ vs whoever topic you want to start.

There's never been a player in NBA history that was "far more dominant" than MJ at 34-35. He was still, a great, great player, the best in the league and better than Shaq or any other player in 97 and 98. In fact, he's the probably the greatest player we've ever seen at ages 34 and 35. Don't let 3Ball's posts goad you too far.

I will agree that 2000 peak Shaq was more dominant than Jordan at 35 and probably 34. Peak Jordan from 88-93 is another story altogether. And even though Shaq was more dominant, there were things Jordan did on the court in 97 and 98 that Shaq could never approach, particularly clutch/big moment scoring, something Shaq (and really most great bigs) was never known for.

[Odinn]

I will agree that 2000 peak Shaq was more dominant than Jordan at 35 and probably 34. Peak Jordan from 88-93 is another story altogether. And even though Shaq was more dominant, there were things Jordan did on the court in 97 and 98 that Shaq could never approach, particularly clutch/big moment scoring, something Shaq (and really most great bigs) was never known for.
Pure BS right here.

[Yoshi]

:hammerhead:

[LAZERUSS]

There's never been a player in NBA history that was "far more dominant" than MJ at 34-35. He was still, a great, great player, the best in the league and better than Shaq or any other player in 97 and 98. In fact, he's the probably the greatest player we've ever seen at ages 34 and 35. Don't let 3Ball's posts goad you too far.

I will agree that 2000 peak Shaq was more dominant than Jordan at 35 and probably 34. Peak Jordan from 88-93 is another story altogether. And even though Shaq was more dominant, there were things Jordan did on the court in 97 and 98 that Shaq could never approach, particularly clutch/big moment scoring, something Shaq (and really most great bigs) was never known for.

Yeah...I do apologize.

But this idiot just constantly throws up these stupid topics, and I have no reason to know why.

Virtually every semi-intelligent poster on this forum has MJ ranked very near, or at the top, of their all-time lists.

And we don't need him disparaging other greats in order to prop up Jordan. Nor do we need to read about just how pathetic MJ's supporting casts were, either. He didn't win anything until he had quality rosters.

[Elosha]

Pure BS right here.

Show me examples of Shaq hitting multiple clutch shots in the 4th quarter, and increasing his scoring overall in the 4th. Show me his game winners. I can think of only one in the regular season, none in playoffs. Because of his poor FT shooting ability, he was often a liability in close games down the stretch. Honestly, Shaq would often disappear in the fourth quarter during his prime. Kobe was always their closer.

[dankok8]

The OP is a joke. 2000 Shaq is easily better than 1997 and 1998 Jordan.

This time LAZERUSS is 100% right.




As for peak Shaq vs. peak Jordan even that's not clear cut to say the least.

[Odinn]

Show me examples of Shaq hitting multiple clutch shots in the 4th quarter, and increasing his scoring overall in the 4th. Show me his game winners. I can think of only one in the regular season, none in playoffs. Because of his poor FT shooting ability, he was often a liability in close games down the stretch. Honestly, Shaq would often disappear in the fourth quarter during his prime. Kobe was always their closer.
You are ignorant. You are that ignorant to not to admit you are ignorant. That's the level.

Shaq averaged 9.0 ppg in 4th quarters in 2000 playoffs.
For comparison; Jordan averaged in 9.7 in 1997 playoffs and 9.0 in 1998 playoffs, Dirk averaged 9.9 in 2011 playoffs, Durant averaged 8.3 in 2012 playoffs. (these are year leaders)

[Yoshi]

Yeah...I do apologize.

But this idiot just constantly throws up these stupid topics, and I have no reason to know why.

Virtually every semi-intelligent poster on this forum has MJ ranked very near, or at the top, of their all-time lists.

And we don't need him disparaging other greats in order to prop up Jordan. Nor do we need to read about just how pathetic MJ's supporting casts were, either. He didn't win anything until he had quality rosters.
Fully agree.

[choppermagic]

What the hell is this crap?

Scoring a higher percentage of your team's points does not mean you are a more dominant player. Geez, your team can suck balls and you score 80% of your team's points, but still be a mediocre player.

And Kobe was with Shaq and also dominant those years too. That made the Lakers even more powerful. So what if it lowered Shaq's percentage of the Laker's total points? It didn't make him less dominant.

[feyki]

96 and 97 Jordan close to 2000 Shaq . But 98 Jordan averaged 4 reb and 2 ast with less than %55 TS in 98 finals . Beside of 98-03 Shaq , 98 Jordan isn't better than even 2001 Kobe .

[ClipperRevival]

96 and 97 Jordan close to 2000 Shaq . But 98 Jordan averaged 4 reb and 2 ast with less than %55 TS in 98 finals . Beside of 98-03 Shaq , 98 Jordan isn't better than even 2001 Kobe .

1997-98 MJ (age 35):

RS: 28.7 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 3.5 APG, 25.2 PER
Playoffs: 32.4 PPG, 5.1 RPG, 3.5 APG, 28.1 PER

MVP, FMVP, ASG MVP, All-NBA 1st team, All-NBA Defensive 1st team



2000-01 Kobe (age 23):

RS: 28.5 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 5.0 APG, 24.5 PER
Playoffs: 29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 25.0 PER

[dankok8]

By 1997, Jordan had really regressed defensively from his peak years. 2001 Kobe was the better defensive player.

[Smoke117]

1-9

[feyki]

1997-98 MJ (age 35):

RS: 28.7 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 3.5 APG, 25.2 PER
Playoffs: 32.4 PPG, 5.1 RPG, 3.5 APG, 28.1 PER

MVP, FMVP, ASG MVP, All-NBA 1st team, All-NBA Defensive 1st team



2000-01 Kobe (age 23):

RS: 28.5 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 5.0 APG, 24.5 PER
Playoffs: 29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 25.0 PER


Kobe at 2001 Playoffs (100 Poss) ;

35.5 pts , 9 reb , 7 ast , 2 stl , 1 blk , 4 to , %55.5 TS , 116 Ortg ( Against 100 Drtg Teams ) , 99 Drtg ( Against 107 Ortg Teams )

Jordan ;

44.5 pts , 7 reb , 5 ast , 2 stl , 1 blk , 3 to , %54.5 TS , 117 Ortg (Against 104 Drtg Teams ) , 102 Drtg ( Against 110 Drtg Teams )

Jordan just took more shots against far worse defensive teams .

Kobe played better all around game . 2 more boards , 2.5 more assists and %1 better shooting .

[Odinn]

Kobe at 2001 Playoffs (100 Poss) ;

35.5 pts , 9 reb , 7 ast , 2 stl , 1 blk , 4 to , %55.5 TS , 116 Ortg ( Against 100 Drtg Teams ) , 99 Drtg ( Against 107 Ortg Teams )

Jordan ;

44.5 pts , 7 reb , 5 ast , 2 stl , 1 blk , 3 to , %54.5 TS , 117 Ortg (Against 104 Drtg Teams ) , 102 Drtg ( Against 110 Drtg Teams )

Jordan just took more shots against far worse defensive teams .

Kobe played better all around game . 2 more boards , 2.5 more assists and %1 better shooting .
Birader, bir siktir git. Mallığını mı ispat etmeye

[3ball]

I look at the stats. In all of them, Jordan has a higher usage rate.. So theres that


What's your point?... All you've done is show MJ was required to carry a bigger load (higher usage) than Shaq.

Are you going to make the ridiculous argument that MJ didn't NEED to have 33-35% usage?... Okay, well neither did Shaq - Shaq's usage didn't NEED to be 31-32%.. See how dumb that argument is - it could be used for every player in history.

Phil went 6/6 with MJ having the highest usage, thus carrying the heaviest load - I'm sure he'd agree that was the best way for that team to succeed... 6/6 don't lie.

Also, compare the proportion of 4th quarter scoring - Jordan's was 7 percentage points higher in 1997/1998 playoffs and Finals than Shaq's 2000... And in 2001/2002 when Kobe started giving Shaq GOAT help, MJ scored TWICE the proportion of his team's 4th quarter points than Shaq did in those years (literally 50% to 25% advantage) - so it's not even close.. 1997 and 1998 MJ was greater.
.

[feyki]

[QUOTE=Odinn]Birader, bir siktir git. Mallığını mı ispat etmeye

[3ball]

Kobe at 2001 Playoffs (100 Poss) ;

35.5 pts , 9 reb , 7 ast , 2 stl , 1 blk , 4 to , %55.5 TS , 116 Ortg ( Against 100 Drtg Teams )

Jordan ;

44.5 pts , 7 reb , 5 ast , 2 stl , 1 blk , 3 to , %54.5 TS , 117 Ortg (Against 104 Drtg Teams )

Jordan just took more shots against far worse defensive teams .

Kobe played better all around game . 2 more boards , 2.5 more assists and %1 better shooting .
What planet are you living on - Jordan scored 25% more than Kobe against teams who were allowing only 4% more scoring, as your stats show above.

Furthermore, 1998 Jordan was MVP, FMVP, ASG MVP, All-NBA 1st team, All-NBA Defensive 1st team, whereas 2001 Kobe was none of these things.

But here's the most revealing thing - we have stats for Kobe's proportion of scoring while he was on the floor in 2000-2002 seasons:


................Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

KOBE 2001....... 32.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 34.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 31.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 37.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 23.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
KOBE 2002....... 30.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 31.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 29.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 27.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 32.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

KOBE 2008....... 31.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 36.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 41.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 30.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


Look at that - it's not even CLOSE... So quit dreaming and join the reality..

Only the big boys like prime Shaq compare to old MJ... Small fry and 2nd options like Kobe don't compare at all - now if I put Pippen's stats alongside Kobe - that's more his speed - he trounces (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12088374&postcount=10) Pippen as a 2nd option.
.

[3ball]

A lot of delusion itt - the only facts are what I post
.

[Smoke117]

Don't you have any hobbies? This has gone from pathetic to just dark and disturbing now. I mean...the obsession...jesus christ...what the hell is wrong with you?

[feyki]

People living on who had more points . Defence,playmaking and shooting more important than scoring .

If you feel like that my arguements meaningless for you . Go ahead and think whatever you want .

[3ball]

Jordan ALSO carried a lottery roster to 6 games with the champs.

In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8/54.. So that roster WAS a lottery roster that he carried to 6 games with World Champion Bad Boys in ECF.. Pippen's stats in that series was 10/5 (14/6 in RS).. Also, MJ carried that lottery roster ALL SEASON, not just beginning in ECSF like the always-pampered Lebron... :rolleyes:

But again, without MJ heading into 1990 season, those Bulls would've been a lottery team, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting their first 3-peat.

And in reality, they would've won the championship in 1990 if Pippen hadn't choked in Game 7 of ECF (2 points, 1-10).. The Bulls would've beaten Blazers easily, since Pistons beat them in 5 easy games, but needed 7 games and Pippen choke to beat Bulls... The ORtg gap between Pistons/Blazers was huge, whereas it was razor-thin or Pistons/Bulls.

[3ball]

What the hell is this crap?

Scoring a higher percentage of your team's points does not mean you are a more dominant player. Geez, your team can suck balls and you score 80% of your team's points, but still be a mediocre player.


That isn't what happened though - Jordan's usage (which accounts for proportion of team FG's and FT's) was 33-35% while Shaq's was 31-32% - so Jordan's was barely higher.

And Jordan's team didn't "suck balls" - they were 6/6 with that formula, which means it was the best formula for that team.

Of course, the notion that MJ didn't NEED to have 33-35% usage is ridiculous... In that case, neither did Shaq - Shaq's usage didn't NEED to be 31-32%.. See how dumb that argument is - it could be used for every player in history.

Phil went 6/6 with MJ having the highest usage, thus carrying the heaviest load - I'm sure he'd agree that was the best way for that team to succeed... 6/6 don't lie..



What the hell is this crap?

And Kobe was with Shaq and also dominant those years too. That made the Lakers even more powerful. Who cares if Kobe's presence lowered Shaq's percentage of the Laker's total points? It didn't make him less dominant.


Of course it does - Shaq's lower usage while winning his rings means he didn't have to do as much as Jordan to win his rings.

Btw, Kobe only averaged 15 ppg on 35% in 2000 Finals, which was less than Pippen's 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals...

So 2000 Shaq had LESS help from Kobe, but still scored a lower proportion of his team's points... So MJ wins the argument on ALL fronts.

[feyki]

I didn't say 2001 Kobe better than Jordan . I said 2001 Kobe better than 98 Jordan . They had equal defence . Jordan
Had better scoring . Kobe had better shooting,playmaking and rebounding .

And Kobe played against better teams .

Also , Kobe's Kings and Spurs series >>>> Jordan's Pacers and Jazz series .

[Odinn]

Oyun okumayi bilmek lazim , umarim ulasabilirsin o erdeme .
Birader, ben oyunu izledim zaten. Sen box score okuyorsun anca. Ger

[Odinn]

I didn't say 2001 Kobe better than Jordan . I said 2001 Kobe better than 98 Jordan . They had equal defence . Jordan
Had better scoring . Kobe had better shooting,playmaking and rebounding .

And Kobe played against better teams .

Also , Kobe's Kings and Spurs series >>>> Jordan's Pacers and Jazz series .
Here. Some facts for you.

Jordan won the MVP award in 1998. Because he led his team to the best record while Pippen missed half of the season.

Also your argument based on DRtg absolute bullshit. Because you use regular season numbers. Post their opponents DRtg in the playoffs. I'd like to see those numbers.
And the Spurs led the league with 98.0. But when Kobe went up against the Spurs, only 15+ ppg Spur besides Duncan, Derek Anderson was injured. Kobe was playing against 25 year-old Antonio Daniels, 35 year-old Avery Johnson, 37 year-old Terry Porter. That Spurs had no viable offensive player besides Duncan and they got crushed.

Jordan won 1998 rin on sheer will. He was better than 2001 Kobe, which still had MDE by his side. I'm not even bothering to talk about how 1998 Jordan was superior mid-range shooter, had far better footwork and low-post moves, etc.

Idiotic claims won't get you anywhere. Instead, try to read/listen and learn.

[La Frescobaldi]

You should see this guy's Michael Jordan archive on his computer:


a folder for photoshopped dick pics
a folder for essays
a folder for .gifs
...it goes on.


He's linked countless YouTube videos with time marks just to show MJ plays. Like multi-hour long videos and he has them all marked down exactly. He always has them on demand. I can't imagine how many notes and stats this guy keeps for this.
The guy has done the exact same posts, 14 times a day, every day, non-stop, holidays included, for two years.

And has literally zero sense of humor.:lol

[feyki]

Odinn ;

Maclari herkes izliyor , ondan bahsetmiyorum . Oyunu okumak clutch time'lar disinda kagit ustunden geciyor . Ney daha cok parkede ise yariyor , ney seni daha cok basarili kiliyor . Bunlari belirlemek onemli .


I'm not interested about regular seasons numbers . I only posted their playoff numbers (yes , i posted their opponents off and def rat ) . You're right on Spurs perimeter defence . I agree that . But Why 98 Jordan better than 2001 Kobe ? Cause took more shots around 4-5 . I can't understand that .

[3ball]

People aren't thinking rationally itt - they're just looking at how big Shaq was and thinking: big = dominant.

That's dumb.

Watch any Jordan game from his career, including 1997 and 1998 - he was double-teamed ALL THE TIME - more than 2000 Shaq - watch the damn games... It was completely standard to send a 2nd guy at MJ anywhere on the floor..

Even on the post, MJ was double-teamed equally to Shaq - here's a Shaq post video that shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%) compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ post video (50%).


SHAQ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8
MJ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg


However, MJ was a danger anywhere, so he was doubled all over the court, not just on the post - teams doubled him 10+ possessions in a row, as shown in several games here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210)...

Someone show me where 2000 Shaq was double-teamed even FIVE times in a row, let alone 10+ like MJ... You guys are just being blind... To you, your mind thinks "how could MJ have been more dominant - Shaq was so big"... But yet you can't show me where he was double-teamed more, whereas I can show you where MJ was.. and of course, MJ carried the bigger load, as proven in the OP.

It shouldn't be surprising or unbelievable - MJ scored a larger proportion of his team's points with equal TS and better ORtg, and he had a less dangerous #2 to deflect attention (Pippen vs. Kobe) - so why WOULDN'T teams double MJ more?

[Quickening]

Peak Shaq is MDE, comfortably better than Jordan

[3ball]

Peak Shaq is MDE, comfortably better than Jordan


If 2000 Shaq was more dominant than 35-year old MJ, then why did he score a far lower proportion of his team's points, despite having a weaker 2nd option that year (Kobe 15 ppg on 35% in Finals)?

If you carry the far bigger load SUCCESSFULLY, you're more dominant - period., And we're looking at 35-year old MJ itt - if this was 28-year old MJ - Shaq would be ridiculously destroyed, even more than 35-year old MJ destroys him.

Of course, the notion that MJ didn't NEED to have 33-35% usage is ridiculous... In that case, neither did Shaq - Shaq's usage didn't NEED to be 31-32%.. See how dumb that argument is - it could be used for every player in history.

Phil went 6/6 with MJ having the highest usage, thus carrying the heaviest load - I'm sure he'd agree that was the best way for that team to succeed... 6/6 don't lie..

[jongib369]

Any names with an * next to it is adjusted for assists that led to a 3 per game.

*SHAQ 00 PRF- 38.11 FG% .574 (21.1 FGA)
Blocks- 3
Steals-0.5
Rebounds- 13.6
Fouled-10.4
Free Throws made- 5.5

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1= 71.11
Total 2=60.71
Total 3=55.21

*Jordan 97 PRF-39.24-- FG%.486 (23.1 FGA)
Blocks- 0.5
Steals-1.7
Rebounds-5.9
Fouled-7
Free Throws made-5.9

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.
Total 1=60.24
Total 2=53.24
Total 3=47.34

Jordan 89 PRF- 48.5-- FG% .538 (24.0 FGA)
Blocks- 0.8
Steals-2.9
Rebounds-8
Fouled-9.8
Free Throws made-8.3

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=78.3
Total 2=68.5
Total 3=60.2

Wilt 67 PRF- 41.5-- FG% .683 (14.2 FGA)
Blocks- NA
Steals-NA
Rebounds-24.2
Fouled-10.8
Free Throws made-4.8

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=81.3
Total 2=70.5
Total 3=65.7

Wilts totals if he maxed out at Denis Rodmans rebounds in 97 16.1/Dennis max 18.7

Total 1=73.2/75.8
Total 2= 62.4/65
Total 3= 57.6/60.2

Should FG% be added into the calculation somehow? Note Wilt in 67 Would technically be further ahead if Blocks/Steals Data was available, even with adjusted stats for everything but Points/Assists. He would get his 14.2 Attempts, and assist rules of the time might of been a natural adjustment for the higher pace.

89 MJ :bowdown:

He was probably his best in 91, but we know stats can only tell so much. Still interesting IMO

[jongib369]

Just updated with FGA since I thought that might be a tad relevant, but like FG% I did NOT put that into the totals

ORB/TRB are more important than steals/Blocks IMO, btw

[3ball]

Any names with an * next to it is adjusted for assists that led to a 3 per game.

*SHAQ 00 PRF- 38.11 FG% .574 (21.1 FGA)
Blocks- 3
Steals-0.5
Rebounds- 13.6
Fouled-10.4
Free Throws made- 5.5

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1= 71.11
Total 2=60.71
Total 3=55.21

*Jordan 97 PRF-39.24-- FG%.486 (23.1 FGA)
Blocks- 0.5
Steals-1.7
Rebounds-5.9
Fouled-7
Free Throws made-5.9

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.
Total 1=60.24
Total 2=53.24
Total 3=47.34

Jordan 89 PRF- 48.5-- FG% .538 (24.0 FGA)
Blocks- 0.8
Steals-2.9
Rebounds-8
Fouled-9.8
Free Throws made-8.3

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=78.3
Total 2=68.5
Total 3=60.2

Wilt 67 PRF- 41.5-- FG% .683 (14.2 FGA)
Blocks- NA
Steals-NA
Rebounds-24.2
Fouled-10.8
Free Throws made-4.8

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=81.3
Total 2=70.5
Total 3=65.7

Wilts totals if he maxed out at Denis Rodmans rebounds in 97 16.1/Dennis max 18.7

Total 1=73.2/75.8
Total 2= 62.4/65
Total 3= 57.6/60.2

Should FG% be added into the calculation somehow? Note Wilt in 67 Would technically be further ahead if Blocks/Steals Data was available, even with adjusted stats for everything but Points/Assists. He would get his 14.2 Attempts, and assist rules of the time might of been a natural adjustment for the higher pace.

89 MJ :bowdown:

He was probably his best in 91, but we know stats can only tell so much. Still interesting IMO


Explain your analysis as it relates to assists - it looks like your parameters EXCLUDE assists

And it's no surprise that your parameters say Jordan's 1989 is the most dominant season ever - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8/54... So that Bulls' roster WAS a lottery roster - without MJ, they would've been lottery heading into 1990 season, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from beginning 3-peat...

MJ led a lottery roster (1989 roster) to a 3-peat (it was the same roster).. NO ONE ELSE IN HISTORY DID THIS (led the same lottery roster to championship)- everyone else got help: Bird added McHale and Parish in 1981, the same year he won his first ring... Magic had Kareem from the get-go... the 1996 Lakers were 53-win, 4-seed before Shaq team-hopped in 1997... Spurs were #1 seed in 1996 before Robinson was injured in 1997 and Duncan was added in 1998... etc, etc, etc

[24-Inch_Chrome]

No one remembers this because it never happened. Shaq is the MDE.

[3ball]

No one remembers this because it never happened. Shaq is the MDE.
If 2000 Shaq was more dominant than 34-35-year old MJ, then why did he score a far lower proportion of his team's points, despite having a weaker 2nd option that year (Kobe 15 ppg on 35% in Finals)?

And we're talking about 34-35 year old MJ - prime MJ ridiculously destroys Shaq more than old MJ did... It's not even close.

Prime MJ is the most dominant player ever, by FAR - he didn't need top 10 all-time player Kobe or some super-boss like Wade to carry him.. MJ's prime performance is by far the most dominant of all time.

[3ball]

stating facts

[3ball]

.
Jordan's 1991-1993 versus Shaq's 2000-2002:


Rebounds/Assists cancel out... So do Steals/Blocks and FG/FT%.



REGULAR SEASON

MJ:... 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense 1st Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense 2nd Team.. 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ:... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ:... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played. #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd



The relevant stats are shown above and MJ beats Shaq ACROSS THE BOARD


http://i.imgur.com/LXkZUhv.gif.

[Round Mound]

Pippen 4th in PER the season MJ left. Thats how good Pippen was without Jordan (not to mention Defensive All Teamer Horace Grant). Jordan was the most protected superstar of his era. You couldnt even touch him or it was a foul.

[3ball]

Can you explain your analysis as it relates to assists - it looks like your parameters EXCLUDE assists

And it's no surprise that your parameters say Jordan's 1989 is the most dominant season ever - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8/54... So that Bulls' roster WAS a lottery roster - without MJ, they would've been lottery heading into 1990 season, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from beginning 3-peat...

MJ led a lottery roster (1989 roster) to a 3-peat (it was the same roster).. NO ONE ELSE IN HISTORY DID THIS (led the same lottery roster to championship)- everyone else got help: Bird added McHale and Parish in 1981, the same year he won his first ring... Magic had Kareem from the get-go... the 1996 Lakers were 53-win, 4-seed before Shaq team-hopped in 1997... Spurs were #1 seed in 1996 before Robinson was injured in 1997 and Duncan was added in 1998... etc, etc, etc



jongib369 - any response to the question in bold above?

It looks like your parameters excludes assists - obviously, their inclusion would make MJ's 1997 > Shaq's 2000.

you said something about asterisk means assisting 3's or something - but it isn't clear - it seems like you should've just included assists in with the other stats like pts and rebounds.

[La Frescobaldi]

Pippen 4th in PER the season MJ left. Thats how good Pippen was without Jordan (not to mention Defensive All Teamer Horace Grant). Jordan was the most protected superstar of his era. You couldnt even touch him or it was a foul.

http://media.masslive.com/breakingnews/photo/2011/07/9841665-large.jpg

http://sneakerbardetroit.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/michael-jordan-mgm-grand-fight.jpg

guys all over the league got technical fouls for that jordan never did.

[3ball]

Pippen 4th in PER the season MJ left. Thats how good Pippen was without Jordan

(not to mention Defensive All Teamer Horace Grant).


Pippen played to full capacity alongside Jordan - his stats were exactly the same without Jordan (22.0/8.7/5.6 in 1994) compared to with Jordan (21.0/7.1/7.0 in 1992... or 19/8/6 in 1993).

Regarding Jordan's PF - Jordan won 6 rings without an all-star PF and 4 rings without an all-defense PF (Rodman didn't make all-nba defense in 1997 or 1998)..





That's how good they were without Jordan


We know the Bulls' 6th best record in 1994 wasn't due to 6th best talent - Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong were nowhere near (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12087908&postcount=239) top 6 among the league's second and third options, while Pippen wasn't top 6 among the league's first options (Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Alonzo 22/10 and 3 blk, and more).

Their NON-top 6 talent proves their top 6 record was due to chemistry and know-how, specifically 3-peat chemistry and know-how from winning 3 straight championships.. Again, they didn't have anywhere near top 6 talent to support their top 6 record.

Look - I'm not making this shit up about chemistry - hear it from the Bulls' own mouths - this is from interviews in 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptKLUpw7Z58&t=2m05s
.

[jongib369]

Explain your analysis as it relates to assists - it looks like your parameters EXCLUDE assists

And it's no surprise that your parameters say Jordan's 1989 is the most dominant season ever - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8/54... So that Bulls' roster WAS a lottery roster - without MJ, they would've been lottery heading into 1990 season, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from beginning 3-peat...

MJ led a lottery roster (1989 roster) to a 3-peat (it was the same roster).. NO ONE ELSE IN HISTORY DID THIS (led the same lottery roster to championship)- everyone else got help: Bird added McHale and Parish in 1981, the same year he won his first ring... Magic had Kareem from the get-go... the 1996 Lakers were 53-win, 4-seed before Shaq team-hopped in 1997... Spurs were #1 seed in 1996 before Robinson was injured in 1997 and Duncan was added in 1998... etc, etc, etc

I'm not sure yet if it was the most dominant ever, totaled up the way I did anyways... I suspect one of Wilts higher scoring seasons might get that nod, but the fact that a Guard is even remotely close with the advantage they have with rebounds is insane. In posting this I was not intending to bring down MJ, just to show one way I look at things.

PRF=Points responsible for, Points+Points scored off Assists they dished out. For MJ's 97 season(The earliest season I can do this for, as far as I know), I looked at his advanced assist data and found of his 4.29 assists per game(4.30 bballreference), 1.06 of them were an assist that led to a 3.

So that's 6.46 points from assisted 2's, 3.18 for 3's. So in total with his own, that's a PRF of 39.25

I realize this doesn't account for an and 1, but it's still a neat stat to look at.


Here's the data from the thread I originally made it for about Steph Curry


(Info will be updated as new information comes. Feel free to correct, or contribute with different players.)

PRF= Points+points from assists.

Any names with an * next to it is adjusted for assists that led to a 3 per game. Any stats from this season doesn't include the very last game the played(Missing stats from Currys game against Spurs)

In order from what I've gathered so far



Tiny 73- 56.8

Wilt 62- 55.2

Oscar 62- 53.6

Oscar 66- 53.5

Oscar 64- 53.4 | Oscar 65- 53.4

Oscar 67- 51.9

Wilt 63- 51.6

Oscar 61- 49.9

*LeBron 10- 49.6

Oscar 68- 48.6

Jordan in 89- 48.5

Magic 87- 48.3

*Curry PER36 16- 48.2

Magic 89- 48.1

*Paul 09- 47.67

*Paul 08-47.63

Baylor in 62- 47.5

*Wade 09- 47.18

Wilt 64- 46.9

*LeBron 08- 46.71

Jordan 87- 46.3

Stockton 90- 46.2 | West 70- 46.2

*Kobe 06- 45.83

*Curry 16- 45.6

*Nash 07-45.41

West 72- 45.2

*Tmac 06- 44.67

*Durant 14- 44.39

Oscar 69- 44.3

Kareem 72- 44

*Harden 15-43.81

Bird 87- 43.3

*Wall 16- 42.35

Wilt in 68- 41.5

*Curry 14- 41

*LeBron 16- 40.29

*Jordan 97- 39.24

*Shaq 00- 38.11

*Stockton 97-36.42

In the 89 playoffs MJ's PRF was 50

Jordan playing PG for 24 games in 89- 47.1

48.5 for the entire season

[SouBeachTalents]

The guy has done the exact same posts, 14 times a day, every day, non-stop, holidays included, for two years.

And has literally zero sense of humor.:lol

Has to be aspergers

[3ball]

In the 89 playoffs MJ's PRF was 50

Jordan playing PG for 24 games in 89- 47.1

48.5 for the entire season


So in the modern era, Jordan's 1989 is #1, since it isn't adjusted for assists that led to 3-pointers, while Lebron's 2010 is.

And ALL the current players are overstated in this regard compared to 80's and 90's players through 1996.

Also, players that score a far higher proportion of their team's points attract more attention, which leads to less attention paid to teammates.. We don't have stats that measure the lesser attention paid to teammates, but we do have stats for proportion of team points scored while on the floor, and 34/35 year old MJ is #1 all-time in that area...

If only we had that data for his prime - considering that old MJ scored literally 45-50% of his team's points in playoffs and Finals while on the floor, this figure was very likely 60-70% or more in his prime - he's simply THE most dominant player ever, particularly in the postseason.

[jongib369]

So in the modern era, Jordan's 1989 is #1, since it isn't adjusted for assists that led to 3-pointers, while Lebron's 2010 is.

And ALL the current players are overstated in this regard compared to 80's and 90's players through 1996.

Also, players that score a far higher proportion of their team's points attract more attention, which leads to less attention paid to teammates.. We don't have stats that measure the lesser attention paid to teammates, but we do have stats for proportion of team points scored while on the floor, and 34/35 year old MJ is #1 all-time in that area...

If only we had that data for his prime - considering that old MJ scored literally 45-50% of his team's points in playoffs and Finals while on the floor, this figure was very likely 60-70% or more in his prime - he's simply THE most dominant player ever, particularly in the postseason.
No doubting MJ's dominance, and the advantage players have today with assisted 3's. Knowing how I calculate it, feel free to post what a few of those modern PRFs would be without it.

Also side question, considering how startling the numbers were for guys like Oscar, Archibald etc...What do you take from it? And if at all, how would you adjust their assists in regards to pace? Considering the rule was at the time 1 step=no assist (I think) was it a natural adjustment for them, or should they be brought down some, but just not to the same extent rebounds are?

[Round Mound]

Pippen played to full capacity alongside Jordan - his stats were exactly the same without Jordan (22.0/8.7/5.6 in 1994) compared to with Jordan (21.0/7.1/7.0 in 1992... or 19/8/6 in 1993).

Regarding Jordan's PF - Jordan won 6 rings without an all-star PF and 4 rings without an all-defense PF (Rodman didn't make all-nba defense in 1997 or 1998)..



We know the Bulls' 6th best record in 1994 wasn't due to 6th best talent - Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong were nowhere near (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12087908&postcount=239) top 6 among the league's second and third options, while Pippen wasn't top 6 among the league's first options (Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Alonzo 22/10 and 3 blk, and more).

Their NON-top 6 talent proves their top 6 record was due to chemistry and know-how, specifically 3-peat chemistry and know-how from winning 3 straight championships.. Again, they didn't have anywhere near top 6 talent to support their top 6 record.

Look - I'm not making this shit up about chemistry - hear it from the Bulls' own mouths - this is from interviews in 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptKLUpw7Z58&t=2m05s
.

Explain to me how the best players team had a player next to him that was the 4th best overall player in the league without the best player in the league? :confusedshrug: I consider MJ the best player ever but man did he have help compared to other superstar of the 90s. Without Jordan the Bulls where a 55 win team. End of discussion.

[GrapeApe]

Peak Shaq's impact went way beyond the numbers. Anyone who understands the game and saw him play knows this, as does anyone who coached or played against him. He was the biggest mismatch in NBA history and basically impossible to game plan for. His presence on the court affected the game more than any single player in history. He completely controlled the paint on both ends. The old cliche "you can't stop him, only hope to contain him" didn't apply to peak Shaq because he couldn't be contained.

It's not as if he was just a big body either. People tend to forget how good of a basketball player he was. He was athletic, highly skilled, and highly intelligent. He had great hands, was a great passer, and understood how to make the right basketball play. The latter is what separated his prime/peak from his Orlando and early LA years. It's absurd to suggest that 34-35 year old Jordan had anywhere near the impact of 3-peat Shaq.

[Wade's Rings]

Explain to me how the best players team had a player next to him that was the 4th best overall player in the league without the best player in the league? :confusedshrug: I consider MJ the best player ever but man did he have help compared to other superstar of the 90s. Without Jordan the Bulls where a 55 win team. End of discussion.

:facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

Explain to me how the best players team had a player next to him that was the 4th best overall player in the league without the best player in the league? :confusedshrug: I consider MJ the best player ever but man did he have help compared to other superstar of the 90s. Without Jordan the Bulls where a 55 win team. End of discussion.

Indisputable.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Smoke117]

Explain to me how the best players team had a player next to him that was the 4th best overall player in the league without the best player in the league? :confusedshrug: I consider MJ the best player ever but man did he have help compared to other superstar of the 90s. Without Jordan the Bulls where a 55 win team. End of discussion.

http://i.imgur.com/QQGdpWH.gif

[jongib369]

Indisputable.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Any names with an * next to it is adjusted for assists that led to a 3 per game.

*SHAQ 00 PRF- 38.11 FG% .574 (21.1 FGA)
Blocks- 3
Steals-0.5
Rebounds- 13.6
Fouled-10.4
Free Throws made- 5.5

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1= 71.11
Total 2=60.71
Total 3=55.21

*Jordan 97 PRF-39.24-- FG%.486 (23.1 FGA)
Blocks- 0.5
Steals-1.7
Rebounds-5.9
Fouled-7
Free Throws made-5.9

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.
Total 1=60.24
Total 2=53.24
Total 3=47.34

Jordan 89 PRF- 48.5-- FG% .538 (24.0 FGA)
Blocks- 0.8
Steals-2.9
Rebounds-8
Fouled-9.8
Free Throws made-8.3

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=78.3
Total 2=68.5
Total 3=60.2

Wilt 67 PRF- 41.5-- FG% .683 (14.2 FGA)
Blocks- NA
Steals-NA
Rebounds-24.2
Fouled-10.8
Free Throws made-4.8

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=81.3
Total 2=70.5
Total 3=65.7

Wilts totals if he maxed out at Denis Rodmans rebounds in 97 16.1/Dennis max 18.7

Total 1=73.2/75.8
Total 2= 62.4/65
Total 3= 57.6/60.2

Should FG% be added into the calculation somehow? Note Wilt in 67 Would technically be further ahead if Blocks/Steals Data was available, even with adjusted stats for everything but Points/Assists. He would get his 14.2 Attempts, and assist rules of the time might of been a natural adjustment for the higher pace.

89 MJ :bowdown:

He was probably his best in 91, but we know stats can only tell so much. Still interesting IMO

Thought you'd appreciate this

[Duffy Pratt]

Explain to me how the best players team had a player next to him that was the 4th best overall player in the league without the best player in the league? :confusedshrug: I consider MJ the best player ever but man did he have help compared to other superstar of the 90s. Without Jordan the Bulls where a 55 win team. End of discussion.

You don't understand. Jordan's teammates were a bunch of scrubs. He carried them singlehandedly through the first three-peat. In the process, he injected them with three-peat chemistry, and taught them how to play. Thus, the only reason the Bulls won 55 games in 94 is because of Jordan. That's how dominant Jordan was: he wins 55 games for the Bulls without even being in the league. That is statistical fact.

[LAZERUSS]

Thought you'd appreciate this

No way around it, Wilt was off-the-charts. And the thing was, you could select almost any prime season of his, from his rookie year thru '68, and they were all just eye-popping.

And, yes MJ's '89 season was truly remarkable.

[LAZERUSS]

You don't understand. Jordan's teammates were a bunch of scrubs. He carried them singlehandedly through the first three-peat. In the process, he injected them with three-peat chemistry, and taught them how to play. Thus, the only reason the Bulls won 55 games in 94 is because of Jordan. That's how dominant Jordan was: he wins 55 games for the Bulls without even being in the league. That is statistical fact.

And I believe 3ball has a gif which proves it, as well.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

"2 -2 =4"

[Round Mound]

You don't understand. Jordan's teammates were a bunch of scrubs. He carried them singlehandedly through the first three-peat. In the process, he injected them with three-peat chemistry, and taught them how to play. Thus, the only reason the Bulls won 55 games in 94 is because of Jordan. That's how dominant Jordan was: he wins 55 games for the Bulls without even being in the league. That is statistical fact.

:roll: Yeah they where touched by Jordan`s magic wand and they became good players...

[Kobe_6/8]

34-35 year old MJ vs 2000 Shaq in a 1v1. Who wins? :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

You don't understand. Jordan's teammates were a bunch of scrubs. He carried them singlehandedly through the first three-peat. In the process, he injected them with three-peat chemistry, and taught them how to play. Thus, the only reason the Bulls won 55 games in 94 is because of Jordan. That's how dominant Jordan was: he wins 55 games for the Bulls without even being in the league. That is statistical fact.

Well, those players did return back to the worthless scrubs that they were before Jordan, the very next season. Even MJ, himself, couldn't overcome their ineptitude.

Luckily, the Bulls brought in another career losing POS PF, who had never experienced a winning season, much less a title, the next year after that, and Jordan immediately turned him into a winner (albeit, making him much worse in the process.) Rodman came to the Bulls as a four time rebound champion, and while he would win three straight more rpg titles, by his last Finals, he could barely get 8 rpg. Just another example of Jordan's ability to create winners by making them worse.

Jordan's knack for taking scrubs, and making them even worse...but teaching them chemistry, which allowed them to win 55 games without him, is what truly separated MJ from a GOAT candidate like Magic. Magic was carried by HOF stacked rosters, but being the career loser that he was, that by the time he retired, they had completely forgotten how to play the game. Hell, look at KAJ. He was an MVP in Magic's rookie season, but after that he got progressively worse, and by his last season he was completely worthless. Magic basically killed his career. Oh sure, the rest of his teammates carried Magic for a while after Kareem retired, and even dragged his sorry ass to one more Final in his last season, but he had completely sucked the chemistry out of them, and the very next season they fell off the cliff.

Jordan was a "chemistry creator", and Magic was a "chemistry killer."

[3ball]

.
.............Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 57.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 54.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 53.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 59.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 56.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 57.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 59.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 51.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 44.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 55.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)



AS I SAID ORIGINALLY - 34-35 YEAR OLD JORDAN WAS FAR MORE DOMINANT THAN PRIME SHAQ

/THREAD

[AirBonner]

.
.............Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 57.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 54.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 53.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 59.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 56.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 57.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 59.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 51.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 44.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 55.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)



AS I SAID ORIGINALLY - 34-35 YEAR OLD JORDAN WAS FAR MORE DOMINANT THAN PRIME SHAQ

/THREAD
nope. his defense was no where near shaq level.

[3ball]

nope. his defense was no where near shaq level.


Shaq wasn't a great defender - most years he wasn't elite at all.

Otoh, Jordan was the best defender at his position and 1st team all-defense in 1998 (9 first team all-defense selections in career).

Shaq wasn't the best defender at his position and was only 2nd-team all-defense in 2000 (only three 2nd-team selections in career, never 1st team)
.

[GrapeApe]

Shaq wasn't a great defender - most years he wasn't elite at all.

Otoh, Jordan was the best defender at his position and 1st team all-defense in 1998 (9 first team all-defense selections in career).

Shaq wasn't the best defender at his position and was only 2nd-team all-defense in 2000 (only three 2nd-team selections in career, never 1st team)
.

Peak Shaq's defensive impact was >>>>> 34-35 year old Jordan. It's ridiculous to argue otherwise. Shaq didn't always go all out on on defense, but when he did he was a beast, especially in the playoffs. He was not only a great rim protector and intimidator, he was a good PnR defender and athletic enough to switch out on the perimeter and still recover to defend the paint. Shaq could control the game on the defensive end in a way few if any players in history could.

The all-defense team argument is stupid. For one thing, there's only one spot for center and two for guards. More importantly, a big man has a much greater defensive impact than a guard. By your logic Kobe is a better defender than Hakeem, D-Rob, Garnett, Wallace, Mourning, Mutombo, etc....

[Dr Hawk]

Shaq wasn't a great defender - most years he wasn't elite at all.

Otoh, Jordan was the best defender at his position and 1st team all-defense in 1998 (9 first team all-defense selections in career).

Shaq wasn't the best defender at his position and was only 2nd-team all-defense in 2000 (only three 2nd-team selections in career, never 1st team)
.

Peak Shaq was a DPOY level defender, a game changer on defense. He had much bigger impact there than 97' Jordan

[3ball]

Peak Shaq was a DPOY level defender, a game changer on defense. He had much bigger impact there than 97' Jordan


^^^^ This is a clear overrating of Shaq's defense... But regardless, you guys aren't thinking through this correctly or logically.

The reason Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center doesn't matter in this comparison is because you're acting like the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL... But they had a center too.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - that's why the defensive end is a wash when comparing 2 great players at different positions - or if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).

Btw, you're overrating Shaq's defensive ability - he was solid when he wanted to be, but there's a reason he only made 3 second-team all defensive teams in his 19 year career, and never 1st team... He simply WASN'T a great defender.

[aj1987]

^^^^ This is a clear overrating of Shaq's defense... But regardless, you guys aren't thinking through this correctly or logically.

The reason Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center doesn't matter in this comparison is because you're acting like the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL... But they had a center too.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - that's why the defensive end is a wash when comparing 2 great players at different positions - or if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).

Btw, you're overrating Shaq's defensive ability - he was solid when he wanted to be, but there's a reason he only made 3 second-team all defensive teams in his 19 year career, and never 1st team... He simply WASN'T a great defender.
You mom should've just swallowed and spared the world of your idiocy.

[3ball]

Peak Shaq... had much bigger impact there than 97' Jordan


LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG: 1.7.. 102
O'NEAL.. DBPM and DRTG: 1.6.. 101

Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more Kobe offset Jordan:

JORDAN DBPM and DRTG: 1.1, 103
KOBE... DBPM and DRTG: -0.5, 105


If we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well.

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing 2 great players at different positions - or if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).

Btw, unlike jordan, shaq wouldn't be a good defender in THIS era, where big men don't stand in the paint on defense like they used to - shaq's big ass taking up space was the #1 reason he had a decent impact defensively (imo)... the times he managed to shuffle his feet defensively were infrequent because he didn't have to come out on the perimeter often like today's bigs do, and he wasn't as good on the perimeter as say, Hakeem or Robinson.
.

[aj1987]

Again, the reason Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center doesn't matter in this comparison is because you're acting like the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL... But they had a center too.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - that's why the defensive end is a wash when comparing 2 great players at different positions - or if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).


LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG: 1.7.. 102
O'NEAL.. DBPM and DRTG: 1.6.. 101


So Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more Kobe offset Jordan:


JORDAN DBPM and DRTG: 1.1, 103
KOBE... DBPM and DRTG: -0.5, 105
Again, your mom should've just swallowed and spared the world of your idiocy.

[3ball]

LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG: 1.7.. 102
O'NEAL.. DBPM and DRTG: 1.6.. 101

Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more Kobe offset Jordan:

JORDAN DBPM and DRTG: 1.1, 103
KOBE... DBPM and DRTG: -0.5, 105


If we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well.

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing 2 great players at different positions - or if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).


Again, your mom should've just swallowed and spared the world of your idiocy.
the argument above is sound as f.uck

the stats show that longley offset shaq in the boxscore more than kobe did mj - a lot more, which helps illustrate my argument above..

btw, i'm sure longley's defensive impact was closer to shaq's than you thought it was - you guys don't realize that longley was a solid defender, plus you're overrating Shaq.. longley was a big dude that took up space in the paint just like shaq did.

which brings me to my next point - unlike jordan, shaq wouldn't be a good defender in THIS era, where big men don't stand in the paint on defense like they used to - shaq's big ass taking up space was the #1 reason he had a decent impact defensively... the times he managed to shuffle his feet defensively were infrequent because he didn't have to come out on the perimeter often like today's bigs do, and he wasn't as good on the perimeter as say, Hakeem or Robinson.
.

[3ball]

aj1997, repost your last response because i deleted and resposted as you were responding.

[aj1987]

the argument above is sound as f.uck

the stats show that longley offset shaq in the boxscore more than kobe did mj - a lot more, which helps illustrate my argument above..

btw, i'm sure longley's defensive impact was closer to shaq's than you thought it was - you guys don't realize that longley was a solid defender, plus you're overrating Shaq.. longley was a big dude that took up space in the paint just like shaq did.

which brings me to my next point - unlike jordan, shaq wouldn't be a good defender in THIS era, where big men don't stand in the paint on defense like they used to - shaq's big ass taking up space was the #1 reason he had a decent impact defensively... inb4 you bring up far less frequent occasions where he managed to shuffle his massive feet defensively.
Your moms swallow game is strong AF.

MJ would be Jimmy Butler with worse defense today. :cheers:


aj1997, repost your last response because i deleted and resposted as you were responding.
You really need help kid. I wouldn't mind recommending a couple therapists, depending upon your city.

[Dr Hawk]

Answer with yes/no to the following question please:

Did 00' O'Neal have more defensive impact than 97' or 98' Jordan?

[feyki]

Answer with yes/no to the following question please:

Did 00' O'Neal have more defensive impact than 97' or 98' Jordan?

For sure .

[3ball]

.
.............Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor


........................ PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 49.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 57.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 59.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 49.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 44.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 55.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)



As I said originally - 34/35 year old MJ was more dominant than prime Shaq - it wasn't even close, as the stats show above

[swagga]

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/031/549/19f.4604

[3ball]

.

.............Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 57.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 54.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 53.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

SHAQ 2000....... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 59.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 56.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 57.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 59.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 51.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 44.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 55.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)




Answer with yes/no to the following question please:

Did 00' O'Neal have more defensive impact than 97' or 98' Jordan?



You want me to answer your question, when not a single poster concedes any of the points I've made itt - and no one even brought up defense until I posted the stats above, proving MJ was the far more dominant player.
.

[3ball]

Answer with yes/no to the following question please:

Did 00' O'Neal have more defensive impact than 97' or 98' Jordan?


When comparing a center to a guard, such as Shaq to MJ, it's useless to consider defense because they play different positions... If we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq's defense in the boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (seen below).

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing 2 great players at different positions - if anything, the edge should go to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).


LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG: 1.7.. 102
O'NEAL.. DBPM and DRTG: 1.6.. 101

Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more Kobe offset Jordan:

JORDAN DBPM and DRTG: 1.1, 103
KOBE... DBPM and DRTG: -0.5, 105

[3ball]

.
..........Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor



.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 57.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 54.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 53.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 59.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 56.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 57.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 59.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 51.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 44.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 55.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)



As I said originally - 34/35 year old MJ was more dominant than prime Shaq - it wasn't even close, as the stats show above


https://media.giphy.com/media/bxnXSJV07za7e/giphy.gif

[ClipperRevival]

.
..........Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor



.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 57.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 54.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 53.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 59.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 56.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 57.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 59.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 51.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 44.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 55.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)



As I said originally - 34/35 year old MJ was more dominant than prime Shaq - it wasn't even close, as the stats show above


https://media.giphy.com/media/bxnXSJV07za7e/giphy.gif

That's a misleading stat because adding assists obviously favors MJ.

I will say that Shaq was more consistently DOMINANT but that MJ was more CLUTCH and carried the larger offensive load when the team needed it most. But MJ wasn't the same overall force he was like his first 3 peat. His rebounding/assists/steals all took a dive and for obvious reasons (age and having to carry a large offensive load). But MJ also wasn't as efficient as his 1st 3 peat either while Shaq was GOAT level efficient. All of this matters. There is no clear cut answer.

[3ball]

But MJ also wasn't as efficient as his 1st 3 peat either while Shaq was GOAT level efficient. All of this matters. There is no clear cut answer.



It's weird how posters come on here and say things that are blatantly false:


O'Neal Efficiency in 2000 Playoffs: 55.6 ts.. 114 ORtg
Jordan Efficiency in 1998 Playoffs: 54.5 ts.. 117 ORtg


Neither was GOAT-level, but MJ's was better





That's a misleading stat because adding assists obviously favors MJ.


I'm curious - did the stats that included assists make you forget about the OP stats that just showed scoring???... I only added the assist stats because other posters were saying it was a factor.. Either way, it isn't close..





I will say that Shaq was more consistently DOMINANT but that MJ was more CLUTCH and carried the larger offensive load when the team needed it most.


MJ carried a much larger offensive load for the entire game, not just in the clutch, whether you look at just points, or points + assists.. The data speaks for itself... But it seems like you're only seeing what you want to see, which is amazing.

It's funny how the data always favors MJ, and it's the other guy that needs excuses to make up the gap - it's laughable..

Also, when you say Shaq was more consistently dominant - based on what?... Based on his FAR lower proportion of points, points + assists, or clutch play??... Or just because he's a big guy?... It's obviously the latter in your mind, since it CAN'T be any of the former.





But MJ wasn't the same overall force he was like his first 3 peat. His rebounding/assists/steals all took a dive and for obvious reasons (age and having to carry a large offensive load).


Obviously he wasn't the same force as the first 3-peat, but it doesn't matter when comparing to Shaq's prime:

As demonstrated by the OP stats (that show scoring) or the stats on this page (which include assists), MJ carried a much bigger offensive load than Shaq.

[ClipperRevival]

I'm curious - did the stats that included assists make you forget about the OP stats that just showed scoring???... I only added the assist stats because other posters were saying it was a factor.. Either way, it isn't close..



MJ carried a much larger offensive load for the entire game, not just in the clutch, whether you look at just points, or points + assists.. The data speaks for itself... But it seems like you're only seeing what you want to see, which is amazing.

It's funny how the data always favors MJ, and it's the other guy that needs excuses to make up the gap - it's laughable..

Also, when you say Shaq was more consistently dominant - based on what?... Based on his FAR lower proportion of points, points + assists, or clutch play??... Or just because he's a big guy?... It's obviously the latter in your mind, since it CAN'T be any of the former.



Obviously he wasn't the same force as the first 3-peat, but it doesn't matter when comparing to Shaq's prime:

As demonstrated by the OP stats (that show scoring) or the stats on this page (which include assists), MJ carried a much bigger offensive load than Shaq.




It's weird how posters come on here and say things that are blatantly false:


O'Neal Efficiency in 2000 Playoffs: 55.6 ts.. 114 ORtg
Jordan Efficiency in 1998 Playoffs: 54.5 ts.. 117 ORtg


Neither was GOAT-level, but MJ's was better
.

I see your points. I'm not here to argue against you but I disagree that it "wasn't close." It certainly was. And I already conceded that MJ was more clutch, carried a larger offensive load and provided more scoring when it mattered most. Those are huge concessions.

But some of your stats are misleading. Like TS%. That is pointless for a guy like Shaq because his bad FT% lowers his TS% tremendously. Shaq made 58% of his shots on 21.1 attempts per game in 2000. That is tremendous efficiency. It's not like a D. Jordan or T. Chandler taking 5-8 shots a game.

A fair stat is PER:

Shaq 2000:

RS: 30.6
PO: 30.5

MJ 1997 and 1998:

RS: 26.5
PO: 27.6


MJ's dip in PER is simply attributable to the lower FG% and lower overall impact in the other areas of the game. And that does matter. So I'm just saying it was close.

[ClipperRevival]

And Shaq's 2000 was historically efficient. His PER of 30.65 is 14th best all-time.

And ORTG is also not a fair stat to Shaq due to his poor FT shooting as the guy who invented the stat (Dean Oliver) said, "Though [Shaquille O'Neal] may have a high floor percentage," Oliver writes, "his poor foul shooting means that he has a lot of one-point possessions, bringing his offensive rating down a bit."

[3ball]

Your view of FT shooting is the most biased thing I've ever read on ISH

[3ball]

Dean Oliver (creator of TS and ORtg stat):


"Though [Shaquille O'Neal] may have a high floor percentage," Oliver writes, "his poor foul shooting means that he has a lot of one-point possessions, bringing his offensive rating down a bit."


Your quote of Dean Oliver is useless - he isn't saying ORtg or TS shouldn't be used to measure Shaq's shooting efficiency.

He's explaining WHY these stats are lower for Shaq and other players, even though they make a high percentage of FG's - it's because they can't shoot FT's.





But some of your stats are misleading. Like TS%. That is pointless for a guy like Shaq because his bad FT% lowers his TS% tremendously. Shaq made 58% of his shots on 21.1 attempts per game in 2000. That is tremendous efficiency. It's not like a D. Jordan or T. Chandler taking 5-8 shots a game.


Are you serious or trolling?... why wouldn't we consider FT shooting?

That's one of the most biased and nonsensical things I've ever read on ISH, especially since it's common knowledge how much Shaq's FT shooting HURT the Lakers, and since FT shooting is one of the most important aspects of the game.

I'm amazed you're preaching that bullshit.

FT shooting COUNTS, bruh... And it makes Shaq's shooting efficiency NOT goat, and not even better than old MJ's... Their TS% was nearly the same, and Jordan's ORtg was higher.





A fair stat is PER:

Shaq 2000:

RS: 30.6
PO: 30.5[

MJ 1997 and 1998

RS: 26.5
PO: 27.6


PER includes many things besides shooting efficiency.. The fair stat for shooting efficiency is true shooting percentage or points-produced per possession (ORtg).

But if you prefer to use "fair stats" like PER, then here's another "fair" stat - win shares:

Jordan WS/48 in 97' & 98' playoffs: 0.260
Shaquille ..WS/48 in 2000 playoffs: 0.224





I see your points. I'm not here to argue against you.. And I already conceded that MJ was more clutch, carried a larger offensive load and provided more scoring when it mattered most. Those are huge concessions.

but I disagree that it "wasn't close." It certainly was.


.....You must be just looking at RS - look at the playoffs - it ISN'T close:


........Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor


........................ PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 49.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 57.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 59.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 49.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 44.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 55.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)


That...... isn't...... close.... MJ was far more dominant offensively.
.

[aj1987]

I suck **** on a regular basis.
Still wish that your mom swallowed you, bro. At the least, she could've spit you out. :cheers:

[ClipperRevival]

Your quote of Dean Oliver is useless - he isn't saying ORtg or TS shouldn't be used to measure Shaq's shooting efficiency.

He's explaining WHY these stats are lower for Shaq and other players, even though they make a high percentage of FG's - it's because they can't shoot FT's.



Are you serious or trolling?... why wouldn't we consider FT shooting?

That's one of the most biased and nonsensical things I've ever read on ISH, especially since it's common knowledge how much Shaq's FT shooting HURT the Lakers, and since FT shooting is one of the most important aspects of the game.

I'm amazed you're preaching that bullshit.

FT shooting COUNTS, bruh... And it makes Shaq's shooting efficiency NOT goat, and not even better than old MJ's... Their TS% was nearly the same, and Jordan's ORtg was higher.



PER includes many things besides shooting efficiency.. The fair stat for shooting efficiency is true shooting percentage or points-produced per possession (ORtg).

But if you prefer to use "fair stats" like PER, then here's another "fair" stat - win shares:

Jordan WS/48 in 97' & 98' playoffs: 0.260
Shaquille ..WS/48 in 2000 playoffs: 0.224



.....You must be just looking at RS - look at the playoffs - it ISN'T close:


........Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor


........................ PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 49.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 57.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 59.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 49.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 44.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 55.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)


That...... isn't...... close.... MJ was far more dominant offensively.
.

I know you are set in your ways and won't budge so i'll say this. Yes, FTs do matter but I would rather take a dominant force like Shaq who hits 50% FT than an average big who hits 70% FTs. Nothing is more impactful than actual in-game action and what you do in it. Shaq hit 58% of his shots from the field on 21.1 attempts per game in 2000. Not to mention the huge amount of attention he attracted to free up other people.

And yeah, PER measures OVERALL efficiency, which is advantage Shaq. You didn't specify in your title that it was just about offense.

[aj1987]

I know you are set in your ways and won't budge so i'll say this. Yes, FTs do matter but I would rather take a dominant force like Shaq who hits 50% FT than an average big who hits 70% FTs. Nothing is more impactful than actual in-game action and what you do in it. Shaq hit 58% of his shots from the field on 21.1 attempts per game in 2000. Not to mention the huge amount of attention he attracted to free up other people.

And yeah, PER measures OVERALL efficiency, which is advantage Shaq. You didn't specify in your title that it was just about offense.
Also, if you actually factor in clutch FT shooting, Shaq was amazing. Dude hit his FT's when they mattered. I still remember G3 in '06. Dude hit clutch AF FT's. Probably the most clutch FT's in Heat's history.

[Da_Realist]

Still wish that your mom swallowed you, bro. At the least, she could've spit you out. :cheers:

Three times you posted this. That's the beauty of the internet. Being stupid is cool as long as no one really knows who you are. :facepalm

[aj1987]

Three times you posted this. That's the beauty of the internet. Being stupid is cool as long as no one really knows who you are. :facepalm
I would say it to his face. :confusedshrug:

You're an MJ stan as well, but I know that you're one of the more rational ones. Read his posts and tell me that his arbitrary stats, which he made up, make any sense. Please do. Dude is delusional AF and definitely needs mental help. Look up his post history, FFS.

[feyki]

Three times you posted this. That's the beauty of the internet. Being stupid is cool as long as no one really knows who you are. :facepalm


Correct . Someone did this in real life it's over in hospital or police station . Nobody shouldn't love or adopt others ideas . But everybody must respect every person .

Back to thread ,

Shaq and 98 Jordan had around same offensive impacts . Shaq had huge rebounding margin too(don't underestimate rebounding) . And Shaq had better defensive impact .

Jordan was far more clutch in anytime of his career than Shaq for sure .

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Curry > Jordan.

MUCH higher offensive impact. It's like comparing a Siberian tiger to a bear.

[Yoshi]

Curry > Jordan.

MUCH higher offensive impact. It's like comparing a Siberian tiger to a bear.
Agreed. And MJ's defensive edge isn't as big as many people say. Pippen helped cover MJ's defensive liabilities. :D

[3ball]

Yes, FTs do matter but I would rather take a dominant force like Shaq who hits 50% FT than an average big who hits 70% FTs. Nothing is more impactful than actual in-game action and what you do in it.

I know you are set in your ways and won't budge


Set in "MY" ways?

That's EVERYBODY'S ways... FT shooting is one of the most important aspects of basketball and efficiency - this isn't "my" way - it's basketball.

Shaq is the guy that started hack-a-Shaq... You know that right?... His FT shooting was a massive drag on his team.. It's a good thing he had Kobe to take over in the 4th quarter:


......Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


......................PO 4th...Finals 4th

SHAQ 2001....... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

KOBE 2001....... 37.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 23.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
KOBE 2002....... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 32.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


Seriously - you should disavow yourself of the notion that FT's somehow shouldn't be considered when evaluating Shaq's efficiency - it's absurd.





Shaq hit 58% of his shots from the field on 21.1 attempts per game in 2000. Not to mention the huge amount of attention he attracted to free up other people.


But that efficiency was dragged down by his WOAT free throw shooting.

And Shaq attracted attention, but not like MJ - MJ scored a higher proportion of his team's points, so defenses had more reason to be wary of him, especially since his #2 wasn't as good as Shaq's #2.





And yeah, PER measures OVERALL efficiency, which is advantage Shaq.


And win shares is a measure of how much a player contributes to his team's wins... Advantage old MJ over prime Shaq.





You didn't specify in your title that it was just about offense.


When comparing a center and a guard, it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing an ATG center to an ATG guard - if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league, 9 first-team defense.... compared to Shaq's 3 second teams in 17 years, no first teams).


LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG: 1.7.. 102
O'NEAL.. DBPM and DRTG: 1.6.. 101

Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more than Kobe offset Jordan:

JORDAN DBPM and DRTG: 1.1, 103
KOBE... DBPM and DRTG: -0.5, 105


Btw, unlike jordan, shaq wouldn't be a good defender in THIS era, where big men don't stand in the paint on defense like they used to - shaq's big ass taking up space was the #1 reason he had a decent impact defensively (imo)... the times he managed to shuffle his feet defensively were infrequent because he didn't have to come out on the perimeter often like today's bigs do, and he wasn't as good on the perimeter as say, Hakeem or Robinson.
.

[Yoshi]

^ So what you are saying is: MJ had not only the help of Pippen, but an underappreciated and quietly dominant Luc Longley. Man, I never knew MJ had such a stacked team.

[3ball]

^ So what you are saying is: MJ had not only the help of Pippen, but an underappreciated and quietly dominant Luc Longley. Man, I never knew MJ had such a stacked team.


The interesting thing about championship teams is that nearly ALL of them are great defensive teams.

Therefore, when comparing the supporting cast of two #1 options who led championship squads, the defensive side of the ball can be ignored - it's simply wash for nearly all championship teams.

On a somewhat unrelated note, regarding the defensive side of the ball for the Bulls - the Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.
.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Agreed. And MJ's defensive edge isn't as big as many people say. Pippen helped cover MJ's defensive liabilities. :D
Take Pippen off of the Bulls and Jordan goes 0/6...assuming he even manages to make the finals.

[LAZERUSS]

The interesting thing about championship teams is that nearly ALL of them are great defensive teams.

Therefore, when comparing the supporting cast of two #1 options who led championship squads, the defensive side of the ball can be ignored - it's simply wash for nearly all championship teams.

On a somewhat unrelated note, the defensive side of the ball had little to do with the Bulls fall to 3-peat champs to 2nd Round in 1994: the Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg tothe massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's crater from #1 all-time to 14th in the league.
.


I always get a kick out of this "massive decline"...

First of all, the Bulls were one completely blown call away from winning that second round series, 4-2. ONE BAD CALL.

Secondly, they nearly won that series with PETE MYERS and his 6 ppg average in that series.

Third...just the year before, the Bulls, with Jordan, struggled to beat that same Knick team, 4-2. And the year before that, it was 4-3.

Yep..."massive decline" alright...

[3ball]

Bulls were 3-peat champs with MJ and 2nd Round team without.

and were one play away from going down 0-3 and being swept... Thank god for Kukoc miracle to save some face before Pippen choked again in Game 5


:applause:

[3ball]

regarding the defensive side of the ball for the Bulls - the Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.


Indeed - teams have a finite amount of energy to expend on both ends - shifts in performance/effort on one side normally take away from the other side.. But even though the Bulls offense fell off a cliff in 1994 and they focused more on defense, their defense didn't improve relative to the league because they were missing their best defender (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s).

Otoh, the presence of MJ gave the Bulls the highest ORtg's of all time.. But this GOAT improvement on offense didn't come at the expense of defense like it would for most teams.. His presence enabled a TWO-WAY team, which isn't surprising, since he's the goat two-way player according to Popovich (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875095&postcount=46).

So imagine Kawhi Leonard (as Popovich references), with the capability of scoring 15 more ppg.. That's Jordan... That's the GOAT.

[Koresh]

Your literally defending an anonymous poster who you don't know... He could be a child molester - we know he's had an online fixation for at least 7 years.



What context?... The data speaks for itself.

In 2000, Kobe averaged 15 ppg on 35% in 2000 Finals - amazingly, that's worse than Pippen's 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals - so Kobe was providing LESS help than Pippen, but Shaq was still scoring a far lower proportion of his team's points than MJ.

34-35 year old MJ was simply much more dominant than Shaq... Deal with it without coming to the defense of potential child molesters.

Here's some math for you, f*ggot.

You have 7,003 more posts than this "anonymous poster." 7,003 more posts in less time from 2014-2016 opposed to his 2009 join date. Who has an online fixation, bitch?

F*ck off.

Get a life. No one can win with you. Your goal posts get farther and farther because you keep moving them to fit your agenda.

You're not always right.

[3ball]

You're not always right.


i am regarding the stats i post about jordan





Here's some math for you, f*ggot.

You have 7,003 more posts than this "anonymous poster." 7,003 more posts in less time from 2014-2016 opposed to his 2009 join date. Who has an online fixation, bitch?

F*ck off.

Get a life. No one can win with you. Your goal posts get farther and farther because you keep moving them to fit your agenda.


http://awesomelyluvvie.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/tumblr_md42dow0sv1r5x5zu.gif

[3ball]

.
.........Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <--- links to data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 35.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 35.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)




.......Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 57.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 54.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 53.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 59.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 56.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 57.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 59.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 51.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 44.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 55.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)



https://media.giphy.com/media/bxnXSJV07za7e/giphy.gif






You didn't specify in your title that it was just about offense.


When comparing a center and a guard, it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the defensive boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing an ATG center to an ATG guard - if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league, 9 first-team defense.... compared to Shaq's 3 second teams in 17 years, no first teams).


LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG: 1.7.. 102
O'NEAL.. DBPM and DRTG: 1.6.. 101

Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more than Kobe offset Jordan:

JORDAN DBPM and DRTG: 1.1, 103
KOBE... DBPM and DRTG: -0.5, 105


Btw, unlike jordan, shaq wouldn't be a good defender in THIS era, where big men don't stand in the paint on defense like they used to - shaq's big ass taking up space was the #1 reason he had a decent impact defensively (imo)... the times he managed to shuffle his feet defensively were infrequent because he didn't have to come out on the perimeter often like today's bigs do, and he wasn't as good on the perimeter as say, Hakeem or Robinson.
.

[LAZERUSS]

When comparing a center and a guard, it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the defensive boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

When comparing a center and a guard, it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the defensive boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

When comparing a center and a guard, it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the defensive boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

First of all, claiming that Longley had more impact than Kobe. Just hilarious.

But even more hilarious...even putting Longley in the same sentence as Shaq is just downright gut-busting.

You are something else Goofball.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

When comparing a center and a guard, it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the defensive boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=longllu01

And look at Shaq's numbers in his 2000 season against that pathetic clown that you call a center.

Just murdered that POS.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

.
Learn to read Lazeruss - stop trolling and lying about what I said - THIS is what I said:


When comparing a center and a guard for the purposes of evaluating who was the better BASKETBALL PLAYER, it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But the Bulls did have a center, just like all teams have a center - so you it doesn't make sense to compare Shaq's defensive impact to Jordan's directly.

Like all teams, the Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the defensive boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing an ATG center to an ATG guard - if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league, 9 first-team defense.... compared to Shaq's 3 second teams in 17 years, no first teams).


LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG: 1.7.. 102
O'NEAL.. DBPM and DRTG: 1.6.. 101

Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more than Kobe offset Jordan:

JORDAN DBPM and DRTG: 1.1, 103
KOBE... DBPM and DRTG: -0.5, 105



And there's no answer for the offensive side of the ball:



.........Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <--- links to data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 35.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 35.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)




.......Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 57.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 54.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 53.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 59.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 56.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 57.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 59.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 51.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 44.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 55.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

[LAZERUSS]

.
Learn to read Lazeruss - stop trolling and lying about what I said - THIS is what I said:


When comparing a center and a guard for the purposes of evaluating who was the better BASKETBALL PLAYER, it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But the Bulls did have a center, just like all teams have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the defensive boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing an ATG center to an ATG guard - if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league, 9 first-team defense.... compared to Shaq's 3 second teams in 17 years, no first teams).


LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG: 1.7.. 102
O'NEAL.. DBPM and DRTG: 1.6.. 101

Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more than Kobe offset Jordan:

JORDAN DBPM and DRTG: 1.1, 103
KOBE... DBPM and DRTG: -0.5, 105

You are showing me absolutely nothing.

BUT, I have shown you that we KNOW that Shaq had a FAR greater IMPACT against that stumble-bum Longley H2H for cryingoutloud.

BTW, Kobe was 1st team all-defense in 2000.

As for your defensive ratings...pure shit, as always.

Maybe you can find me a game in one of Longley's many Finals in which he took over after Jordan fouled out like Kobe did in game four of the 2000 Finals.

Kobe in 2000 was just coming into his own, and by 2001 was an elite defender that was carrying the Lakers past the Duncan-Robinson Spurs.

Longley was just a career worthless POS that had ZERO impact at any time in his career.

You are just hilarious.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Lebron23]

Shaq > Jordan

And it's not even Close.

Shaq was unstoppable in 2000.

[3ball]

.
Hey Lazeruss - I figured out a better way to make my point:


Since Jordan has the bigger defensive advantage against peers at his position (best defensive SG in league), he gives his team a bigger advantage on the defensive side of the ball than Shaq, whose defensive advantage is much smaller in his matchups with peers at the center position.

Jordan was the best defensive SG in the league for 10 straight seasons and made 9 First-Team All-Defense - so he has a bigger defensive edge vs. his peers than Shaq, who only made only 3 Second-Team All-Defense in 17 seasons (no first teams), and therefore gives his team a smaller defensive edge vs. his peers..
.

[Lebron23]

https://49.media.tumblr.com/82ccf3a22a93759166d269d9dbbc14b4/tumblr_n6tbvtqvNY1qg9ai1o1_500.gif

[Dr Hawk]

.
Hey Lazeruss - I figured out a better way to make my point:


Since Jordan has the bigger defensive advantage against peers at his position (best defensive SG in league), he gives his team a bigger advantage on the defensive side of the ball than Shaq, whose defensive advantage is much smaller in his matchups with peers at the center position.

Jordan was the best defensive SG in the league for 10 straight seasons and made 9 First-Team All-Defense - so he has a bigger defensive edge vs. his peers than Shaq, who only made only 3 Second-Team All-Defense in 17 seasons (no first teams), and therefore gives his team a smaller defensive edge vs. his peers..
.

Why does it matter the advantage against peers?

The question is, who had more defensive impact, 00 O'Neal or 97' Jordan. That's it, the rest of the players don't matter here.

Who had more defensive impact, peak Pippen or peak David Lee? Peak Moncrief or peak Bargnani? Answers to these questions are obvious, there is no need at all to look at their contemporary peers. I don't understand why you talk about Longley here, we are comparing O'Neal to Jordan, that's it

[LAZERUSS]

.
Hey Lazeruss - I figured out a better way to make my point:


Since Jordan has the bigger defensive advantage against peers at his position (best defensive SG in league), he gives his team a bigger advantage on the defensive side of the ball than Shaq, whose defensive advantage is much smaller in his matchups with peers at the center position.

Jordan was the best defensive SG in the league for 10 straight seasons and made 9 First-Team All-Defense - so he has a bigger defensive edge vs. his peers than Shaq, who only made only 3 Second-Team All-Defense in 17 seasons (no first teams), and therefore gives his team a smaller defensive edge vs. his peers..
.

Intereresting...

You KNOW that I could post a PRIME Shaq's H2H's against Ewing, Hakeem, and Robinson, and he just blew them all away, right?

Not even close. A 22 year Shaq was pummeling a prime Hakeem in the Finals (BTW, he outshot him from the field by a staggering .590 to .483 margin.) And after that H2H, it was basically a Shaq in a tank and driving on the same freeway in a 100 degree day, as the cube of butter that Hakeem was, was laying in.

[La Frescobaldi]

Why does it matter the advantage against peers?

The question is, who had more defensive impact, 00 O'Neal or 97' Jordan. That's it, the rest of the players don't matter here.

Who had more defensive impact, peak Pippen or peak David Lee? Peak Moncrief or peak Bargnani? Answers to these questions are obvious, there is no need at all to look at their contemporary peers. I don't understand why you talk about Longley here, we are comparing O'Neal to Jordan, that's it

you can't understand it because it's an incredibly stupid deflection.

[LAZERUSS]

Why does it matter the advantage against peers?

The question is, who had more defensive impact, 00 O'Neal or 97' Jordan. That's it, the rest of the players don't matter here.

Who had more defensive impact, peak Pippen or peak David Lee? Peak Moncrief or peak Bargnani? Answers to these questions are obvious, there is no need at all to look at their contemporary peers. I don't understand why you talk about Longley here, we are comparing O'Neal to Jordan, that's it

Only Goofball understands this comparison.

He is the inventor of the now famous math equation...

2 - 2 = 4

[3ball]

.
.........Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <--- links to data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 35.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 35.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)




.......Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 57.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 54.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 53.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 59.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 56.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 57.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 59.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 51.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 44.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 55.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

[3ball]

Why does it matter the advantage against peers?


Centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, but the advantage they give their team depends on how their impact relates to other CENTERS, not guards.

Shaq's team realizes no advantage when his impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??.. Shaq's team realizes no advantage from his rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "defensive box score" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact a player can provide.. But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact - the point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to Pippen, Lebron or ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams (ranked in top 6 once in 15 years, thru his Miami days).

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even when Shaq had solid defenders like Horace Grant, Eddie Jones, Kobe and Alonzo Mourning.



Shaq's all-defensive teammates:

Horace Grant 2
Eddie Jones 2
Kobe Bryant 5
Dwayne Wade 1
________________
4 teammates.. 10 times... 4 of 15 seasons with zero all-def teammates




MJ's all-defensive teammates:

Scottie Pippen 6
Horace Grant 1
Dennis Rodman 1
_________________
3 teammates... 8 times... 5 of 11 seasons with zero all-def teammates




Shaq's team's defensive ranks thru his Miami days:

1993 Orlando: 12*
1994 Orlando: 15
1995 Orlando: 13
1996 Orlando: 12
1997 Lakers: 8*
1998 Lakers: 11
1999 Lakers: 23
2000 Lakers: 1
2001 Lakers: 21
2002 Lakers: 7
2003 Lakers: 19
2004 Lakers: 8
2005 Miami: 6
2006 Miami: 9*
2007 Miami: 8*
_________________
11.5 average

(asterisk means no all-defensive players on team)



Jordan's team's defensive ranks as Bull

1985 Bulls: 20*
1987 Bulls: 11*
1988 Bulls: 3*
1989 Bulls: 11*
1990 Bulls: 19*
1991 Bulls: 7
1992 Bulls: 4
1993 Bulls: 7
1996 Bulls: 1
1997 Bulls: 4
1998 Bulls: 3
_______________
8.18 average



A couple caveats:

1) Shaq had Alonzo Mourning on his team leading the bench in 2006 - Alonzo averaged an amazing 2.7 blocks in 20 minutes per game.

2) Shaq had Horace Grant starting every game for Lakers in 2001, with averages of 9/7, not far off his career averages of 11/8.

3) People say Pippen > Kobe defensively - well apparently, not relative to his competition, as evidenced by Kobe's equivalent number of 1st team all-defensive selections - when evaluating things in basketball, "relative to the competition" is the name of the game.


Conclusion: Considering Shaq had all-defensive wing teammates his entire career (and frontcourt player Horace in Orlando), there's no excuse for Shaq NOT being the difference that drove teams to elite defensive status like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing's did... Shaq simply wasn't a great defender relative to the elite defenders at his position and vastly underachieved defensively... Furthermore, his lack of work ethic and lazy mentality permeated his teams.

Otoh, Jordan's teams were rated higher defensively his entire career, despite having less all-defensive teammates.. This shouldn't be surprising since Jordan gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - Jordan was the far superior defender relative to his peers than Shaq, and his far superior work ethic/mentality rubbed off on the entire team.
.

[AirBonner]

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even when Shaq had solid defenders like Horace Grant, Eddie Jones, Kobe and Alonzo Mourning.

And there's no definitive stat or data that really measures defensive impact concretely - so what I'm saying could be as right as anything out there..

Here are the FACTS we know: the defensive impact that Shaq gave the Lakers was often wiped out by the other team's center, like Hakeem, David Robinson, Dikembe or Alonzo, who gave their team greater defensive impacts.

This didn't happen for Jordan because he was the best defensive SG in the league... On average, he gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - as an example, look at the Kobe vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-0.5 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Longley vs. Shaq (1.7 to Shaq's 1.6).

Now I'll concede that if you replaced Jordan with Hakeem or Robinson, the Bulls would be a better defensive team than with Jordan - but again, those guys were the best defensive players at their position just like Jordan was, and their defensive advantage over other centers was likely bigger than Jordan's advantage over other SG's.

So it isn't remarkable that replacing Jordan with them would lead to a better defensive team... But not Shaq - he was only 2nd team all-defense 3 times in his 17 year career (never 1st team) and his teams rarely ranked near the top defensively - and again, his defensive boxscore advantage over the opposing center was less than the defensive boxscore advantage Jordan had over his matchup at SG, so Jordan was giving his team a bigger defensive impact in that regard.

So yeah, MJ was the better defender in my book, and you can't prove me wrong... And we already know MJ provided the far greater offensive impact (see previous post).
You mean Pippen was the better defender. 1-9

[LAZERUSS]

the defensive impact that Shaq gave his team was often wiped out by the other team's center, like Hakeem, David Robinson

In his 26 career H2H's with Ewing,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=ewingpa01&p2=onealsh01

Shaq outscored him on average by a 28.7 ppg to 21.4 ppg margin, and outshot him by a .542 to .444 margin.


How about against David Robinson?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=robinda01&p2=onealsh01

Shaq outscored him in their 23 regular season H2H's, 26.1 ppg to 18.6 ppg, and outshot him by a .536 to .470 margin.

In their 17 post-season H2H's, the margins were 24.7 ppg to 9.6 ppg, and .523 to .451.


And how about the great Hakeem?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

20 regular season H2H's... 22.1 ppg to 18.4 ppg, and .544 to .447.
8 post-season H2H's... 28.8 ppg to 23.0 ppg, and .556 to .465.


Next bit of nonsense...

[K Xerxes]

Surely if you tally only percentage of team points scored and assists, you exclude the biggest advantage Shaq has over MJ: rebounding. If you factor that in, peak Shaq would probably come out on top (I haven't checked). Of course there's an issue of what weighting should be given to each category in terms of importance, which is when it once again becomes arbitrary horse shit.

I can roll with the idea that second three peat MJ was a better overall player than peak Shaq, though I would disagree and limit that to only peak Jordan. However, when you start throwing around hyperbole like 'far greater', it's farcical, delusional and frankly trolling.

Just quickly checked the data, and 00-02 Shaq was pulling down roughly 35-40% of the team rebounds in the playoffs, while MJ around 15-20%. That makes a difference.

[sdot_thadon]

Basketball reference really ****ing up your fairy tales this week, huh 3ball. :applause:

[guy]

Surely if you tally only percentage of team points scored and assists, you exclude the biggest advantage Shaq has over MJ: rebounding. If you factor that in, peak Shaq would probably come out on top (I haven't checked). Of course there's an issue of what weighting should be given to each category in terms of importance, which is when it once again becomes arbitrary horse shit.

I can roll with the idea that second three peat MJ was a better overall player than peak Shaq, though I would disagree and limit that to only peak Jordan. However, when you start throwing around hyperbole like 'far greater', it's farcical, delusional and frankly trolling.

Just quickly checked the data, and 00-02 Shaq was pulling down roughly 35-40% of the team rebounds in the playoffs, while MJ around 15-20%. That makes a difference.

Agree. I don't think its crazy to say that Shaq even in his peak was overrated due to his historically bad free throw shooting and that there a number of better players, such as 34-35 year old Jordan, who was better as a result. Not a crazy thought.

I'd probably say Shaq has been underrated for the most part though, especially since Wilt and Russell had the same issue. Maybe I'm mistaken, but was there ever a Hack-a-Wilt/Russell strategy back then? I'd assume not due to the "three shots to make two" rule. If not, then Shaq should probably get more credit, relatively speaking.

[3ball]

In his 26 career H2H's with Ewing,


How about against David Robinson?


And how about the great Hakeem?


All these guys are far better defenders than Shaq, which makes my point - centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, but the advantage they give their team depends on how their impact relates to other CENTERS, not guards.

Shaq's team realizes no advantage when his impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??.. Shaq's team realizes no advantage from his rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "defensive box score" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact a player can provide.. But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact - the point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to Pippen, Lebron or ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams (ranked in top 6 once in 15 years, thru his Miami days).

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even when Shaq had solid defenders like Horace Grant, Eddie Jones, Kobe and Alonzo Mourning.



Shaq's all-defensive teammates:

Horace Grant 2
Eddie Jones 2
Kobe Bryant 5
Dwayne Wade 1
________________
4 teammates.. 10 times... 4 of 15 seasons with zero all-def teammates




MJ's all-defensive teammates:

Scottie Pippen 6
Horace Grant 1
Dennis Rodman 1
_________________
3 teammates... 8 times... 5 of 11 seasons with zero all-def teammates




Shaq's team's defensive ranks thru his Miami days:

1993 Orlando: 12*
1994 Orlando: 15
1995 Orlando: 13
1996 Orlando: 12
1997 Lakers: 8*
1998 Lakers: 11
1999 Lakers: 23
2000 Lakers: 1
2001 Lakers: 21
2002 Lakers: 7
2003 Lakers: 19
2004 Lakers: 8
2005 Miami: 6
2006 Miami: 9*
2007 Miami: 8*
_________________
11.5 average

(asterisk means no all-defensive players on team)



Jordan's team's defensive ranks as Bull

1985 Bulls: 20*
1987 Bulls: 11*
1988 Bulls: 3*
1989 Bulls: 11*
1990 Bulls: 19*
1991 Bulls: 7
1992 Bulls: 4
1993 Bulls: 7
1996 Bulls: 1
1997 Bulls: 4
1998 Bulls: 3
_______________
8.18 average



A couple caveats:

1) Shaq had Alonzo Mourning on his team leading the bench in 2006 - Alonzo averaged an amazing 2.7 blocks in 20 minutes per game.

2) Shaq had Horace Grant starting every game for Lakers in 2001, with averages of 9/7, not far off his career averages of 11/8.

3) People say Pippen > Kobe defensively - well apparently, not relative to his competition, as evidenced by Kobe's equivalent number of 1st team all-defensive selections - when evaluating things in basketball, "relative to the competition" is the name of the game.


Conclusion: Considering Shaq had all-defensive wing teammates his entire career (and frontcourt player Horace in Orlando), there's no excuse for Shaq NOT being the difference that drove teams to elite defensive status like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing's did... Shaq simply wasn't a great defender relative to the elite defenders at his position and vastly underachieved defensively... Furthermore, his lack of work ethic and lazy mentality permeated his teams.

Otoh, Jordan's teams were rated higher defensively his entire career, despite having less all-defensive teammates.. This shouldn't be surprising since Jordan gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - Jordan was the far superior defender relative to his peers than Shaq, and his far superior work ethic/mentality rubbed off on the entire team.
.

[3ball]

Agree. I don't think its crazy to say that Shaq even in his peak was overrated due to his historically bad free throw shooting and that there a number of better players, such as 34-35 year old Jordan, who was better as a result. Not a crazy thought.

I'd probably say Shaq has been underrated for the most part though, especially since Wilt and Russell had the same issue. Maybe I'm mistaken, but was there ever a Hack-a-Wilt/Russell strategy back then? I'd assume not due to the "three shots to make two" rule. If not, then Shaq should probably get more credit, relatively speaking.


We know that old MJ carried a FAR bigger load offensively than prime Shaq - we can say "FAR" bigger, because that's what the OP data shows - it speaks for itself.

[K Xerxes]

We know that old MJ carried a FAR bigger load offensively than prime Shaq - we can say "FAR" bigger, because that's what the OP data shows - it speaks for itself.

Once again hyperbole centred on cherry picked stats. If we're considering offense it would be wrong to exclude offensive rebounding from your stats.

MJ finals 97: 40.9 %PTS, 32.7 %AST, 14.5 %OREB, -19.7 %TOV

Shaq finals 00: 38.4 %PTS, 10.3 %AST, 51.5 %OREB, -21 %TOV

[SpanishACB]

what kind of drug makes you 3ball?

im legit curious

[Smoke117]

Stop bumping this thread...it's just embarassing to read the title of this thread. 3ball truly is demented...not because of the fact that he thinks what he thinks...there are a lot of morons here...but because he just...won't...****ing...STOP.

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

.
.........Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <--- links to data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 35.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 35.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)




.......Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 57.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 54.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 53.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 59.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 56.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 57.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 59.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 51.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 44.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 55.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)..

[3ball]

If we're considering offense it would be wrong to exclude offensive rebounding from your stats.

MJ finals 97: 40.9 %PTS, 32.7 %AST, 14.5 %OREB, -19.7 %TOV

Shaq finals 00: 38.4 %PTS, 10.3 %AST, 51.5 %OREB, -21 %TOV

Once again hyperbole centred on cherry picked stats.


Did you read the post you quoted????... We're talking about OFFENSE.

See the previous post for reposted data on proportion of points scored..... and then points + assists.

We can cancel out assists and rebounds if you want and just go by points... Makes no difference...

MJ carried the bigger load on offense, while providing his team a larger defensive box score advantage over the opposing SG than Shaq had over the opposing center.

[K Xerxes]

Did you read the post you quoted????... We're talking about OFFENSE.

All I did was add in offensive rebounding stats. Offensive rebounding is an important part of offense that generates extra possessions. Clearly Shaq pulling down 50+% of his teams OREB greatly benefited his teams offense...


We can cancel out assists and rebounds if you want and just go by points... Makes no difference...


no you cannot just 'cancel out' assists and rebounds. My point is that you cannot just excude what doesn't favor MJ and add up the rest.

And in fact if you compare only points, MJ does have an advantage (unsuprisingly as the greatest scorer), but it's not by much in the RS, PO and finals. He's ahead like 2-3% each time, which does not constitute as 'far' greater offensive load. My contention is that you dismiss this as a foregone conclusion, when it is in actual fact close and certainly debatable.

[3ball]

All I did was add in offensive rebounding stats. Offensive rebounding is an important part of offense that generates extra possessions. Clearly Shaq pulling down 50+% of his teams OREB greatly benefited his teams offense...


Okay, that's fine.. We can just look at scoring, since MJ has the assist edge and Shaq has the rebound edge.





And in fact if you compare only points, MJ does have an advantage (unsuprisingly as the greatest scorer), but it's not by much in the RS, PO and finals. He's ahead like 2-3% each time, which does not constitute as 'far' greater offensive load. My contention is that you dismiss this as a foregone conclusion, when it is in actual fact close and certainly debatable.


Bullshit - you act like I can't see the damn numbers right there in the post above.

In the "playoffs" and "Finals " columns, 1998 Jordan has between 5-8% advantage over any Shaq year, not 2-3%.

In the "playoffs 4th" column, 1998 Jordan has 9-24% advantage over Shaq depending on the year... And in the "Finals 4th" column, Jordan has a 6% advantage over 2000 Shaq, and literally a 24-26% edge over 2001 and 2002 Shaq.. So stop lying and saying it's close - you sound like a politician.

So again, MJ carried a significantly bigger load on offense, while providing his team a larger defensive box score advantage over the opposing SG than Shaq had over the opposing center.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Okay, that's fine.. We can just look at scoring, since MJ has the assist edge and Shaq has the rebound edge.
Except that Shaq's rebounding edge is larger than Jordan's assist edge...

[AirBonner]

Except that Shaq's rebounding edge is larger than Jordan's assist edge...
I bet 3ball has an argument saved for this :lol

[3ball]

Except that Shaq's rebounding edge is larger than Jordan's assist edge...


Only against old MJ - prime MJ destroys him - remember, we're arguing this whole time about OLD Jordan vs. prime Shaq... (that's the real beauty of it.. :D )

And I prefer that old MJ's big advantages are in the scoring and assist categories - which they are - while also providing his team with a larger defensive box score advantage over the opposing SG, than Shaq has over the opposing center.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Only against old MJ - prime MJ destroys him - remember, we're arguing this whole time about OLD Jordan vs. prime Shaq... (that's the real beauty of it.. :D )

And I prefer that old MJ's big advantages are in the scoring and assist categories - which they are - while also providing his team with a larger defensive box score advantage over the opposing SG, than Shaq has over the opposing center.
But you're talking about old MJ here. If you're arguing prime MJ > prime Shaq, of course you've got a great case, but the rebounding edge prime Shaq has over old MJ is greater than old MJ's assist edge. They're different discussions, that's the point I'm trying to make.

[3ball]

But you're talking about old MJ here. If you're arguing prime MJ > prime Shaq, of course you've got a great case, but the rebounding edge prime Shaq has over old MJ is greater than old MJ's assist edge. They're different discussions, that's the point I'm trying to make.
Again, that's fine - old MJ has the big scoring AND assist edge, and Shaq has the rebounding edge.

Advantage old MJ.

[3ball]

Summary of the dialogue ITT:


3BALL: Old MJ carried a bigger load than prime Shaq, since he scored a higher proportion of his team's points than Shaq.


OTHER POSTERS: Even 2000 Shaq?... No way... b-b-but.. fine then... what about assists?


3BALL: MJ carried an even bigger load when you include assists.


OTHER POSTERS: Whatever... **** you.... Nobody cares what you say... Oh wait, I have a counter - defense... Shaq had a far bigger defensive impact.... hahaha... So THERE


3BALL: Actually, the defensive impact that Shaq gave his team was wiped away and superceded when he faced better defensive centers, like Hakeem, David Robinson, Dikembe or Alonzo - all these guys gave their team greater defensive impacts.

This didn't happen for Jordan because he was the best defensive SG in the league... On average, he gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - as an example, look at the Kobe vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-0.5 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Longley vs. Shaq (1.7 to Shaq's 1.6).


OTHER POSTERS: b-b-but.... huh?... wtf


3BALL: Now I'll concede that if you replaced Jordan with Hakeem or Robinson, the Bulls would be a better defensive team than with Jordan - but again, those guys were the best defensive players at their position just like Jordan was, and their defensive advantage over other centers was likely bigger than Jordan's advantage over other SG's.

So it isn't remarkable that replacing Jordan with them would lead to a better defensive team... But not Shaq - he was only 2nd team all-defense 3 times in his 17 year career (never 1st team) and his teams rarely ranked near the top defensively - and again, his defensive boxscore advantage over the opposing center was less than the defensive boxscore advantage Jordan had over his matchup at SG, so Jordan was giving his team a bigger defensive impact in that regard.


OTHER POSTERS: **** you... You ****


3BALL: Sorry guys... There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even though Shaq had solid defenders like Horace Grant, Eddie Jones, Kobe and Alonzo Mourning.


OTHER POSTERS: You're a ***********... Nobody cares about your posts.... :mad: ....... Oh wait - I thought of another counter - rebounding... So even though Shaq scored a lower proportion of his team's points and assists, and even though he gave his team a smaller defensive boxscore advantage over the opposing center than the advantage Jordan provided in his matchup at shooting guard, Shaq got more REBOUNDS.... YAAAAY!!!!!... He got more rebounds!!!... :rockon: ..... So that makes him better and carrying the bigger load, despite the disadvantages on offense and defense... Whew.... That was a close one 3ball.


3BALL: :roll:
.

[ShawkFactory]

Stop bumping your threads you fvcking weirdo

[Smoke117]

Stop bumping your threads you fvcking weirdo

The issues...what I don't get is how he doesn't realize that no one cares...like his idiotic post above yours...he acts like people are really getting into it...he's the only one that cares about this shit. He's been doing this for almost a year now too...it's really sad. I'm a pretty callous person, but even I'm starting to feel bad for him.

[3ball]

he's the only one that cares about this shit


There's 11 pages and 163 posts in the thread, including numerous involved arguments from many posters...





I'm a pretty callous person


:roll:

ur obviously a *****
.

[La Frescobaldi]

The issues...what I don't get is how he doesn't realize that no one cares...like his idiotic post above yours...he acts like people are really getting into it...he's the only one that cares about this shit. He's been doing this for almost a year now too...it's really sad. I'm a pretty callous person, but even I'm starting to feel bad for him.

exactly what i was thinking. not even a sense of humor.

the guy needs to take a vacation from posting. like 30 years or so.

[keep-itreal]

3ball stay winning.

haters mad as **** in this thread:oldlol: