MJ was more dominant in 97' & 98' runs than Lebron's 12' & 13

[3ball]

.
..........PROPORTION (%) OF TEAM PTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER ON FLOOR


........................RS......RS 4th.... PO.....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <---- these are links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 34.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 33.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 30.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 33.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 30.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 29.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)




PROPORTION OF TEAM POINTS + ASSISTS WHILE PLAYER ON FLOOR


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 69.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 63.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 72.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 62.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 67.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 75.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 75.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 75.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)




PROPORTION OF TEAM PTS + AST WHILE PLAYER WAS ON FLOOR MINUS PROPORTION OF TO'S


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 40.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 51.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 48.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 38.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 52.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 41.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 31.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 45.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 46.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



CLIFFS: OLD Jordan won his last 2 championships while carrying a bigger load than PRIME Lebron carried while winning his only 2 championships.

(btw, regarding the stats that subtract turnovers - the math works out correctly - for instance, if a team has 5 assists and 5 TO's in the 4th quarter, and Lebron has 1 assist and 1 TO, then he had 20% of his team's assists and 20% of their TO's, so it's a wash)
.

[AirBonner]

.
..Percentages of team points + assists - turnovers while player was on floor


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 40.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 51.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 48.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 38.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 52.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 41.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 31.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 45.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 46.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



Not even close - old man Jordan destroying prime Lebron
agree. against inferior competition.

[3ball]

agree. against inferior competition.


Actually, the 1998 Utah Jazz had a 100.3 playoff DRtg.

That's lower than anything Lebron has ever faced in the Finals.. :cheers:

[AirBonner]

Actually, the 1998 Utah Jazz had a 100.3 playoff DRtg.

That's lower than anything Lebron has ever faced in the Finals.. :cheers:
again against inferior competition

[3ball]

again against inferior competition

The the 1998 Jazz destroyed Popovich/Duncan/Robinson's 56-win Spurs team in 5 games in WCSF..

Duncan/Popovich were no competition.


:yaohappy:

[3ball]

again against inferior competition (even though the 1998 Jazz destroyed Pop/Duncan/Robinson's 56-win Spurs in 5 games during ECSF)

.
Lebron choked and missed the walk-off attempt - he needed Ray Allen to save him:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/XxRuyC.gif



Otoh Jordan MADE the exact same walk-off attempt in his first meeting against Duncan/Popovich to send the game into OT:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/rP-QUs.gif



After hitting the walk-off, MJ dominated OT, including 2 dunks over Duncan:


https://media.giphy.com/media/l2JI5Cmb2ZUqOOq7m/giphy.gif



In his 2nd meeting against Duncan, MJ dominated Duncan even more thoroughly:


https://media.giphy.com/media/TbKAH5Pl5N91S/giphy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-11-2015/cyFnUr.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/VgAj53MW9ee5O/giphy.gif


It's obvious that Jordan only DOMINATED Duncan and guys like Duncan - they weren't "rivals" like they are for Lebron.. :rolleyes:.. 6/6

[LAKingKobe]

Don't really care what you show.
90s were an era of weaker teams.
2012 Thunder and 2013 Spurs would sweep the Jazz and all the other teams Jordan faced to be honest.
As for bron vs Jordan. They were playing some of the greatest basketball ever played in the pkayoffs. I'll give the edge to Bron because he had to carry his team a bit more while Joddan had Pippen and weaker competition.

[Smoke117]

1-9...and you're demented. Nobody cares. That's what you don't seem to realize about every single one of your threads...NOBODY CARES. Only you care about this shit...so write it in your journal and stop making threads here...then the only one who will read it is the only one who cares...you.

[raprap]

:lol

[3ball]

Don't really care what you show.

90s were an era of weaker teams.
2012 Thunder and 2013 Spurs would sweep the Jazz and all the other teams Jordan faced to be honest.


Apparently, you're unaware of what happened in 1998 Playoffs WCSF - the Utah Jazz destroyed Popovich/Duncan/Robinson in 5 games (Pop's Spurs won 56 games that year)..

Duncan/Popovich were no competition for Jordan - he destroyed Pop's Spurs all regular season (see post #6 above (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12095256&postcount=6)) and then destroyed the same Jazz team that had crushed them in playoffs.

Btw, that 2012 Thunder team was a bunch of babies that didn't know how to play - every team that Jordan beat in the Finals would've destroyed them.





Joddan had Pippen played weaker competition.


The 1998 Jazz had a lower playoff DRtg (100.3) than any team Lebron ever faced in the Finals, and they destroyed Popovich/Duncan/Robinson's Spurs in the 1998 playoffs (4-1).... So....... you're obviously wrong.

Lebron has never destroyed Duncan/Popovich, let alone Robinson too.

And today's era has weak, soft rules - this is common knowledge... Lebron's stats would be worse back then with defenders able to get in his chest and bump him around - his flopping routine would be a joke back then..

Plus he wouldn't have teammates spreading out defenders for him and he'd face crowded paints like everyone else did back then - the crowded paints would force him to pull-up from midrange like everyone else.. But his jumpshot is horrific, literally bottom of the league (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713938&postcount=64) for most of his career.





As for bron vs Jordan. I'll give the edge to Bron because he had to carry his team a bit more



That's factually incorrect - in addition to the OP stats which include assists and turnovers, just look at the scoring - it's not even close:


...................Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2009.... 35.0..... 39.3..... 41.5..... 42.4
LEBRON 2010.... 34.6..... 44.4..... 32.6..... 40.3
LEBRON 2011.... 32.0..... 32.8..... 28.1..... 30.7...... 21.4...... 14.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
LEBRON 2012.... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
LEBRON 2013.... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
LEBRON 2014.... 33.1..... 38.2..... 35.3..... 32.1...... 39.6...... 29.5
LEBRON 2015.... 30.1..... 38.9..... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 42.4...... 40.0...... 44.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
.

[Lebron23]

Are you really comparing that 1997-98 Spurs team to the 2013 version? The 2013 version were much better than that team even though Duncan declined as a player.

[Cocaine80s]

Weak competition tho

[AirBonner]

Weak competition tho
truth. stats from the 90's can't translate to the present day nba.

[3ball]

Are you really comparing that 1997-98 Spurs team to the 2013 version? The 2013 version were much better than that team even though Duncan declined as a player.


Jordan and Utah destroyed Duncan and Popovich - Whereas Lebron GETS destroyed by them.

Do you see the difference?... And Duncan wasn't a shell like he is today playing 25 minutes per game, plus they had prime Robinson.

You think today's Spurs are somehow better despite less talent, while not even considering that the playing environment was completely different altogether back then... Today's Spurs have 3-point shooting and spacing that the 1998 Spurs didn't have - and neither did the Bulls or any other team back then.. The game was played WITHOUT spacing, which makes it a tougher game - everyone knows the game is tougher without spacing.. And MJ's Bulls were the kings OF that tougher game.

Also, you guys act like Lebron missing that walk-off attempt and needing Ray had something to do with the Spurs - that was just Lebron choking again, while MJ made his walk-off vs. Pop/Duncan, shown in post #6 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12095256&postcount=6) above) - and obviously, he came through in Finals (6/6).. In 1997 alone, he hit GW in Games 1 and 5 (flu game), and series-winning assist to Kerr in Gm 6 (which spearheaded Kerr's career).
.

[3ball]

truth. stats from the 90's can't translate to the present day nba.


If anything, stats from 1998 should be increased when comparing to today, since PPG, pace and league-wide ORtg were all much lower in 1998 than they are today, or 2013..



In addition to the OP stats which include assists and turnovers, here's just the scoring stats - it's not even close:


...................Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2009.... 35.0..... 39.3..... 41.5..... 42.4
LEBRON 2010.... 34.6..... 44.4..... 32.6..... 40.3
LEBRON 2011.... 32.0..... 32.8..... 28.1..... 30.7...... 21.4...... 14.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
LEBRON 2012.... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
LEBRON 2013.... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
LEBRON 2014.... 33.1..... 38.2..... 35.3..... 32.1...... 39.6...... 29.5
LEBRON 2015.... 30.1..... 38.9..... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 42.4...... 40.0...... 44.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
.

[Nash]

.
..Percentages of team points + assists - turnovers while player was on floor


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 40.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 51.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 48.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 38.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 52.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 41.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 31.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 45.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 46.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



Old man Jordan was more dominant during his last 2 championship runs, than prime Lebron was during his only 2
.
wtf kind of stats are those? literally take nothing into account in order to make a real judgement.

[3ball]

wtf kind of stats are those? literally take nothing into account in order to make a real judgement.
jfc, what would you like to take into account?... what excuse would you like to make?... If there's something so compelling that I'm missing - speak on it..

Otherwise, the stats speak for themselves - it's basically points + assists - turnovers, as a proportion of the entire team's while the player was on the floor.

the math works out correctly - for instance, if a team has 5 assists and 5 TO's in the 4th quarter, and Lebron has 1 assist and 1 TO, then he had 20% of his team's assists and 20% of their TO's, so it's a wash.

again, the stats speak for themselves - old MJ was more dominant during his last 2 championship runs, than prime Lebron was during his only 2.
.

[Gileraracer]

Jordan > Lebron

in other words: water is wet.

[sdot_thadon]

Another day, another stupid thread. You miss your meds again bro? You got ridiculed too much in your last "hit" thread so here we are superstar.

And to answer your stupid ass op, no. Too old Mj, too prime Lebron. I remember what you were saying around that time trainwreck. Those were the years lebron broke you.

[plowking]

Lebron>Jordan.

[LAZERUSS]

Might have been.

MJ was a pretty good player in '97 and '98.

I might even take his career over Lebron's, too.

[Dragonyeuw]

I wonder how many games that 98 Bulls team wins if Pippen doesn't miss 35 games. Hell if he only missed 17-18 games, and they broke even in those games, they're sitting on 70 wins again.

[Yoshi]

Who was even saying LeBron was better than Jordan in those years? 3Ball making up debates that never even existed.

[LAZERUSS]

I wonder how many games that 98 Bulls team wins if Pippen doesn't miss 35 games. Hell if he only missed 17-18 games, and they broke even in those games, they're sitting on 70 wins again.


True, they went 36-8 when he played, and only 26-12 in the games he missed, but as we have learned, he was just a worthless scrub.

[Showtime80']

The 97 or 98 Jazz would absolutely MURDER any team in the NBA of the last few years not named Golden State!

Check out the beat down they gave in consecutive years to the Lakers in 97 and 98, a team with 4 ALL STARS with young Shaq, Eddie Jones, Van Exel, Kobe, Campbell, Fox, Horry, Fisher etc... That teams was more talented than anything LeBron faced in the Finals! And they did it with Malone, Stockton and Hornacek in their mid 30's!

Hell the 1998 Lakers would sweep the 2012 Thunder without much contest!

[3ball]

stats from 90's can't translate today


If anything, stats from 1998 should be increased when comparing to today, since PPG, pace and league-wide ORtg were all much lower in 1998 than they are today, or 2013..

[navy]

1-9

[3ball]

Are you really comparing that 1997-98 Spurs team to the 2013 version? The 2013 version were much better than that team even though Duncan declined as a player.


Jordan and Utah destroyed Duncan and Popovich - Whereas Lebron GETS destroyed by them.

Do you see the difference?... And Duncan wasn't a shell like he is today playing 25 minutes per game - he played 40 minutes per game, plus they had prime Robinson.

You think today's Spurs are somehow better despite less talent, while not even considering that the playing environment was completely different altogether back then... Today's Spurs have 3-point shooting and spacing that the 1998 Spurs didn't have - and neither did the Bulls or any other team back then.

The game was played WITHOUT spacing, which makes it a tougher game - everyone knows the game is tougher without spacing.. And MJ's Bulls were the kings OF that tougher game - they were kings of basketball when players didn't space the floor with 3-point shooting.. Put today's Duncan back in 1998 environment where teammates didn't space the floor and it was more physical, and he'd have retired at 35 years old - today's spacing and softer environment has prolonged his career.

Also, you guys act like Lebron missing that walk-off attempt and needing Ray had something to do with the Spurs - that was just Lebron choking again, while MJ made his walk-off vs. Pop/Duncan and thoroughly dominated them, as shown in post #6 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12095256&postcount=6) - and obviously, he came through in Finals (6/6).. In 1997, he hit GW in Games 1 and 5 (flu game), and series-winning assist to Kerr in Gm 6 (which spearheaded Kerr's career).

[tmacattack33]

.
..Percentages of team points + assists - turnovers while player was on floor


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 40.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 51.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 48.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 38.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 52.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 41.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 31.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 45.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 46.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



Old man Jordan was more dominant during his last 2 championship runs, than prime Lebron was during his only 2


(btw, the math works out correctly - for instance, if a team has 5 assists and 5 TO's in the 4th quarter, and Lebron has 1 assist and 1 TO, then he had 20% of his team's assists and 20% of their TO's, so it's a wash)
.

What does "percentage of team assists" have to do with anything? If a team doesn't get many assists that will unreasonably raise the value of somebody's assists in this useless stat of yours.

Also, are you using turnovers in that formula or "percentage of team's turnovers"? If just turnovers then your whole formula is unbalanced.

Show us your formula.




Anyway, these are the stats:

MJ over second three peat: 6.0 reb, 4.1 assists, 31.4 points on .56 TS%

Lebron in the playoffs in Miami: 8.36 rebounds 6.4 assists, 26.9 points on .595 TS%

[swagga]

nobody cares about these 2 tired old shitbags.

curry >>>>> jordan = lebron = kobe = old

[3ball]

What does "percentage of team assists" have to do with anything? If a team doesn't get many assists that will unreasonably raise the value of somebody's assists in this useless stat of yours.


I'm deducing that you weren't good at math in school.

A player's percentage or PROPORTION of his team's assists shows the assist load he carries on that team - Jordan's proportion (or load) of points + assists was higher, when you account for turnovers (subtract his proportion of turnovers).





Also, are you using turnovers in that formula or "percentage of team's turnovers"? If just turnovers then your whole formula is unbalanced.

Show us your formula.


The math works out correctly.

For instance, if a team has 5 assists and 5 TO's, and Lebron has 1 assist and 1 TO, then he had 20% of his team's assists and 20% of their TO's, so it's a wash... The assists cancel out the TO's.





Anyway, these are the stats:

MJ over second three peat: 6.0 reb, 4.1 assists, 31.4 points on .56 TS%

Lebron in the playoffs in Miami: 8.36 rebounds 6.4 assists, 26.9 points on .595 TS%


^^^^^ I like how you put the scoring last... :oldlol: ... But those stats are raw numbers and don't reflect each player's respective proportion of team points, assists and turnovers (their offensive load).

Said another way, here's each player's proportion of their team's points + assists, after accounting for turnovers - these are the only numbers that matter when evaluating who carried the bigger offensive load:


..Percentages of team points + assists - turnovers while player was on floor


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 40.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 51.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 48.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 38.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 52.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 41.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 31.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 45.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 46.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)

[AirBonner]

I'm deducing that you weren't good at math in school.

A player's percentage or PROPORTION of his team's assists shows the assist load he carries on that team - Jordan's proportion (or load) of points + assists was higher, when you account for turnovers (subtract his proportion of turnovers).



The math works out correctly.

For instance, if a team has 5 assists and 5 TO's, and Lebron has 1 assist and 1 TO, then he had 20% of his team's assists and 20% of their TO's, so it's a wash... The assists cancel out the TO's.



^^^^^ I like how you put the scoring last... :oldlol: ... But those stats are raw numbers and don't reflect each player's respective proportion of team points, assists and turnovers (their offensive load).

Said another way, here's each player's proportion of their team's points + assists, after accounting for turnovers - these are the only numbers that matter when evaluating who carried the bigger offensive load:


..Percentages of team points + assists - turnovers while player was on floor


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 40.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 51.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 48.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 38.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 52.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 41.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 31.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 45.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 46.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
Show us the stats of your thread posting that doesn't involve Jordan

[tmacattack33]

I'm deducing that you weren't good at math in school.

A player's percentage or PROPORTION of his team's assists shows the assist load he carries on that team - Jordan's proportion (or load) of points + assists was higher, when you account for turnovers (subtract his proportion of turnovers).



The math works out correctly.

For instance, if a team has 5 assists and 5 TO's, and Lebron has 1 assist and 1 TO, then he had 20% of his team's assists and 20% of their TO's, so it's a wash... The assists cancel out the TO's.



^^^^^ I like how you put the scoring last... :oldlol: ... But those stats are raw numbers and don't reflect each player's respective proportion of team points, assists and turnovers (their offensive load).

Said another way, here's each player's proportion of their team's points + assists, after accounting for turnovers - these are the only numbers that matter when evaluating who carried the bigger offensive load:


..Percentages of team points + assists - turnovers while player was on floor


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 40.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 51.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 48.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 38.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 52.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 41.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 31.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 45.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 46.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)

Who cares about "load".

Player A: 10 assists, 2 turnovers
Player B: 4 assists, 2 turnovers

Obviously Player A wins.



If Player A's team passes more and turns the ball over less than Player B's though, then your formula will look like:

Player A: 10 out of 30 team assists (.3) and 2 out of 10 team turnovers (.2)

Player B: 4 assists out of 20 team assists (.2) and 2 out of 20 team turnovers (.1)

And Player B will win in terms of your BS stat.


GTFO.

[tmacattack33]

The math works out correctly.

For instance, if a team has 5 assists and 5 TO's, and Lebron has 1 assist and 1 TO, then he had 20% of his team's assists and 20% of their TO's, so it's a wash... The assists cancel out the TO's.





No. Teams usually get about 65% more assists than turnovers though. They usually get 25 assists and 15 turnovers. Which will make a turnover worth more than an assist in your BS stat.




Detailed Explanation using your Lebron 1 assist and 1 turnover example:

Lebron's 1 assist will likely be 1 out of 25 team assists, which goes into your BS stat as .04 (1/25).

Lebron's 1 turnover will likely be 1 out of 15 team turnovers, which goes into your BS stat as .0667 (1/15).

So, in your stat, this is .04 - .0667 and Lebron comes out with a negative number (.027 to be exact), not 0. So this is NOT a wash. Which is why your stat is BS.

GTFO.

[Yoshi]

Who cares about "load".

Player A: 10 assists, 2 turnovers
Player B: 4 assists, 2 turnovers

Obviously Player A wins.



If Player A's team passes more and turns the ball over less than Player B's though, then your formula will look like:

Player A: 10 out of 30 team assists (.3) and 2 out of 10 team turnovers (.2)

Player B: 4 assists out of 20 team assists (.2) and 2 out of 20 team turnovers (.1)

And Player B will win in terms of your BS stat.


GTFO.
It is sad that the OP has to twist stats to make Jordan look good, when Jordan didn't ever need somebody to manipulate his stats to make him look good.

[FKAri]

The only thing MJ has ever dominated anyone in is shoe sales

[LAZERUSS]

It is sad that the OP has to twist stats to make Jordan look good, when Jordan didn't ever need somebody to manipulate his stats to make him look good.

I agree.

Most everyone here has MJ in their Top-3, and most at #1. Very few, if any, have LeBron ranked over him.

Yet, it's one daily topic after another comparing the two.

But it is getting even worse now. He has added Shaq, and Curry, and probably other's into these comparisons, and for the life of me, I don't know why.

Might as well start topics like it is better to be rich, than poor; healthy than sick; attractive than ugly; etc, etc.

[3ball]

..Percentages of team points + assists - turnovers while player was on floor


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 40.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 51.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 48.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 38.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 52.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 41.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 31.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 45.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 46.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



Old man Jordan was more dominant during his last 2 championship runs, than prime Lebron was during his only 2


(btw, the math works out correctly - for instance, if a team has 5 assists and 5 TO's in the 4th quarter, and Lebron has 1 assist and 1 TO, then he had 20% of his team's assists and 20% of their TO's, so it's a wash)

.
I'd like someone to explain how these STATISTICS........... are twisted.

[tmacattack33]

I'd like someone to explain how these STATISTICS........... are twisted.

I already did.

They inexplicably make turnovers worth more than assists.

And also inexplicably penalize a player if the rest of his team gets a lot of assists or a low amount of turnovers.

[dankok8]

3ball just stop man. You are embarrassing yourself.

[3ball]

Who cares about "load".

Player A: 10 assists, 2 turnovers...... Player A's Team: 30 assists,
Player B: 4 assists, 2 turnovers...... Player B Team: 20 assists, 10 turnovers

Obviously Player A wins.


We don't know who wins because we don't know how much their TEAMS assisted and turned it over, so we can't tell how big a proportion of each that Player A and Player B accounted for.

Btw, a sidenote - the 1997 and 1998 Bulls were 2nd and 7th in assists, which was better than the 2012 and 2013 Heat, who were 21st and 7th.





Player A: 4 assists out of 20 team assists (.2) and 2 out of 20 team turnovers (.1)


This player only accounts for only 10% of his team's turnovers - good for him.... :applause:

this means his proportion of team assists won't be reduced by that much...





Player B: 10 out of 30 team assists (.3) and 2 out of 10 team turnovers (.2)


This player accounts for a hefty percentage of his team's turnovers (20%)... shame on him....:(

this means his proportion of team assists will be reduced more.

btw - you don't understand simple math - the OP stats are THE most accurate way to measure a player's proportion of team points and assists, after accounting for turnovers... bar none

[Trollsmasher]

yeah, but MJ played in the Weak '90s

kinda destroys your whole argument

[Duffy Pratt]

Every time 3Ball posts, Jordan gets a little bit worse.

I'm looking forward to his demonstration that Jordan was more dominant than Wes Unseld.

[3ball]

Every time 3Ball posts, Jordan gets a little bit worse.

I'm looking forward to his demonstration that Jordan was more dominant than Wes Unseld.
Wow man, I post some really great, informative stats, and you say some dumb shit to trash me

I could cure cancer and you'd still be like, **** 3ball.. think about that (not saying these stats cure cancer, obv)

[aj1987]

Wow man, I post some really great, informative stats, and you say some dumb shit to trash me

I could cure cancer and you'd still be like, **** 3ball.. think about that (not saying these stats cure cancer, obv)
If you cure cancer, you wouldn't be here.

[tmacattack33]

We don't know who wins because we don't know how much their TEAMS assisted and turned it over, so we can't tell how big a proportion of each that Player A and Player B accounted for.

Btw, a sidenote - the 1997 and 1998 Bulls were 2nd and 7th in assists, which was better than the 2012 and 2013 Heat, who were 21st and 7th.



This player only accounts for only 10% of his team's turnovers - good for him.... :applause:

this means his proportion of team assists won't be reduced by that much...



This player accounts for a hefty percentage of his team's turnovers (20%)... shame on him....:(

this means his proportion of team assists will be reduced more.

btw - you don't understand simple math - the OP stats are THE most accurate way to measure a player's proportion of team points and assists, after accounting for turnovers... bar none

A turnover is a turnover, who cares about what percentage of the team's total turnovers it is :facepalm ?

[3ball]

A turnover is a turnover, who cares about what percentage of the team's total turnovers it is :facepalm ?
i'd hate to be your math tutor

:banghead:

[tmacattack33]

i'd hate to be your math tutor

:banghead:

That has nothing to do with math.

I understand your BS formula completely. In fact I understand your own formula better than you do mathematically, as you were incorrect when you stated that 1 turnover and 1 assist were a "wash" in your own formula.


I'm saying there is no reason to look at "percentage of team turnovers" as opposed to just turnovers, from a qualitative view point. :facepalm

If Ish Smith gets 5 turnovers for the Sixers tonight, that'll be just as bad as if Tony Parker gets 5 turnovers for the Spurs. It doesn't matter that the Sixers average more turnovers than the Spurs. But according to you, Tony Parker will have had the worse game here in terms of turnovers.

[3ball]

That has nothing to do with math.

I understand your BS formula completely. In fact I understand your own formula better than you do mathematically, as you were incorrect when you stated that 1 turnover and 1 assist were a "wash" in your own formula.


I'm saying there is no reason to look at "percentage of team turnovers" as opposed to just turnovers, from a qualitative view point. :facepalm

If Ish Smith gets 5 turnovers for the Sixers tonight, that'll be just as bad as if Tony Parker gets 5 turnovers for the Spurs. It doesn't matter that the Sixers average more turnovers than the Spurs. But according to you, Tony Parker will have had the worse game here in terms of turnovers.
what's the point of getting higher proportion of your team's assists if you get a higher proportion of your team's turnovers too, thus canceling it out?

that's the point of the OP data: to arrive at each player's proportion of team points + assists, after accounting for their proportion of turnovers.

but i think i may have a solution to that circumvents your misunderstanding of basic math and the validity of the OP stats.. stay tuned

[Micku]

Late to the party but:

The 1998 Jazz had a lower playoff DRtg (100.3) than any team Lebron ever faced in the Finals, and they destroyed Popovich/Duncan/Robinson's Spurs in the 1998 playoffs (4-1).... So....... you're obviously wrong.


I don't think it's wise to use DRtg from one era to another. Different rules, different philosophy, different shot selections in general. The style itself is different to really fairly use certain stats across eras like that.

With that said, the Jazz is a match towards Thunder 12. Jazz faced the Lakers 98, which had more talent than the Thunder and Shaq, imo, was the better player than KD 12, Karl Malone 98, and Westbrook 12. I do think the Spurs 13 better than the Jazz tho, but all imo. It would've been nice series.

[sdot_thadon]

Pretty much all the relevant info

Regular Season
Player Season G MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
LeBron James 2011-12 62 37.5 10.0 18.9 .531 0.9 2.4 .362 9.1 16.5 .556 .554 6.2 8.1 .771 1.5 6.4 7.9 6.2 1.9 0.8 3.4 1.5 27.1
Michael Jordan* 1996-97 82 37.9 11.2 23.1 .486 1.4 3.6 .374 9.9 19.5 .507 .516 5.9 7.0 .833 1.4 4.5 5.9 4.3 1.7 0.5 2.0 1.9 29.6
LeBron James 2012-13 76 37.9 10.1 17.8 .565 1.4 3.3 .406 8.7 14.5 .602 .603 5.3 7.0 .753 1.3 6.8 8.0 7.3 1.7 0.9 3.0 1.4 26.8
Michael Jordan* 1997-98 82 38.8 10.7 23.1 .465 0.4 1.5 .238 10.4 21.5 .482 .473 6.9 8.8 .784 1.6 4.2 5.8 3.5 1.7 0.5 2.3 1.8 28.7



Regular Season Advanced
Player Season G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/48 OBPM DBPM BPM VORP ORtg DRtg
LeBron James 2011-12 62 2326 30.7 .605 .127 .429 5.0 19.7 12.6 33.6 2.6 1.7 13.3 32.0 10.0 4.5 14.5 .298 8.3 2.7 11.0 7.6 118 97
Michael Jordan* 1996-97 82 3106 27.8 .567 .157 .304 4.2 13.2 8.8 21.2 2.4 1.1 7.2 33.2 13.3 5.0 18.3 .283 6.5 0.2 6.7 6.8 121 102
LeBron James 2012-13 76 2877 31.6 .640 .188 .395 4.4 20.8 13.1 36.4 2.4 1.9 12.4 30.2 14.6 4.7 19.3 .322 9.2 2.4 11.6 9.8 125 101
Michael Jordan* 1997-98 82 3181 25.2 .533 .067 .381 4.7 12.5 8.5 18.0 2.4 1.0 7.7 33.7 10.4 5.4 15.8 .238 4.6 0.0 4.6 5.3 114 100



Playoffs
Player Season G MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
LeBron James 2011-12 23 42.7 10.9 21.8 .500 1.0 3.7 .259 10.0 18.1 .549 .522 7.5 10.2 .739 2.3 7.4 9.7 5.6 1.9 0.7 3.5 2.0 30.3
Michael Jordan* 1996-97 19 42.3 11.9 26.2 .456 0.7 3.5 .194 11.3 22.7 .497 .469 6.5 7.8 .831 2.2 5.7 7.9 4.8 1.6 0.9 2.6 2.4 31.1
LeBron James 2012-13 23 41.7 9.2 18.8 .491 1.6 4.2 .375 7.7 14.6 .524 .532 5.9 7.6 .777 1.6 6.8 8.4 6.6 1.8 0.8 3.0 1.9 25.9
Michael Jordan* 1997-98 21 41.5 11.6 25.0 .462 0.6 2.0 .302 11.0 23.0 .476 .474 8.6 10.6 .812 1.6 3.5 5.1 3.5 1.5 0.6 2.1 2.2 32.4



Playoffs Advanced
Player Season G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/48 OBPM DBPM BPM VORP ORtg DRtg
LeBron James 2011-12 23 983 30.3 .576 .169 .466 6.8 20.5 13.8 28.1 2.4 1.3 11.8 33.4 4.2 1.6 5.8 .284 8.1 2.8 11.0 3.2 116 99
Michael Jordan* 1996-97 19 804 27.1 .524 .135 .297 5.9 16.4 10.9 25.7 2.1 1.9 8.0 35.5 2.5 1.5 3.9 .235 6.8 1.9 8.7 2.2 114 101
LeBron James 2012-13 23 960 28.1 .585 .222 .405 4.8 19.7 12.4 30.5 2.3 1.6 12.1 29.2 3.7 1.5 5.2 .260 7.3 2.9 10.2 2.9 118 101
Michael Jordan* 1997-98 21 872 28.1 .545 .082 .424 4.5 11.0 7.6 19.9 2.1 1.1 6.7 36.6 3.6 1.2 4.8 .265 7.1 -0.9 6.2 1.8 117 103

[3ball]

Pretty much all the relevant info (playoffs coming)

Regular Season
Player Season G MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
LeBron James 2011-12 62 37.5 10.0 18.9 .531 0.9 2.4 .362 9.1 16.5 .556 .554 6.2 8.1 .771 1.5 6.4 7.9 6.2 1.9 0.8 3.4 1.5 27.1
Michael Jordan* 1996-97 82 37.9 11.2 23.1 .486 1.4 3.6 .374 9.9 19.5 .507 .516 5.9 7.0 .833 1.4 4.5 5.9 4.3 1.7 0.5 2.0 1.9 29.6
LeBron James 2012-13 76 37.9 10.1 17.8 .565 1.4 3.3 .406 8.7 14.5 .602 .603 5.3 7.0 .753 1.3 6.8 8.0 7.3 1.7 0.9 3.0 1.4 26.8
Michael Jordan* 1997-98 82 38.8 10.7 23.1 .465 0.4 1.5 .238 10.4 21.5 .482 .473 6.9 8.8 .784 1.6 4.2 5.8 3.5 1.7 0.5 2.3 1.8 28.7



Regular Season Advanced
Player Season G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/48 OBPM DBPM BPM VORP ORtg DRtg
LeBron James 2011-12 62 2326 30.7 .605 .127 .429 5.0 19.7 12.6 33.6 2.6 1.7 13.3 32.0 10.0 4.5 14.5 .298 8.3 2.7 11.0 7.6 118 97
Michael Jordan* 1996-97 82 3106 27.8 .567 .157 .304 4.2 13.2 8.8 21.2 2.4 1.1 7.2 33.2 13.3 5.0 18.3 .283 6.5 0.2 6.7 6.8 121 102
LeBron James 2012-13 76 2877 31.6 .640 .188 .395 4.4 20.8 13.1 36.4 2.4 1.9 12.4 30.2 14.6 4.7 19.3 .322 9.2 2.4 11.6 9.8 125 101
Michael Jordan* 1997-98 82 3181 25.2 .533 .067 .381 4.7 12.5 8.5 18.0 2.4 1.0 7.7 33.7 10.4 5.4 15.8 .238 4.6 0.0 4.6 5.3 114 100



Your data only shows efficiency - it doesn't include volume such as PPG, which is what drives winning, not efficiency, as we saw in 2014 Finals.

In the 2014 Finals, the Heat shot better than any other Spurs opponent (DAL, POR, OKC), yet they lost by the most and had the widest differential in ORtg ever.. Otoh, the stat that ACTUALLY affected the ORtg differential was PPG[/I]:

DAL scored the most ppg vs. Spurs, and their disadvantage in ORtg was the smallest.. OKC scored the 2nd most ppg, and their disadvantage in ORtg was the 2nd smallest.. POR scored the 3rd most, and their disadvantage was the 3rd smallest... And of course, Miami, with their dumb efficiency strategy, scored the least ppg, and their disadvantage in ORtg was the most, BY FAR..

Also, the point of the OP data is to show who championships while carrying the bigger load, so your data isn't relevant.

[livinglegend]

Phil Jackson on Scottie Pippen as a leader

[3ball]

.
PROPORTION (%) OF TEAM PTS + AST WHILE PLAYER ON FLOOR (proportion of TO not subtracted)


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 69.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 63.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 72.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 62.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 67.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 75.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 75.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 75.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)


^^^^^ Looking at each player's proportion of points and assists ONLY, Jordan carried a bigger load while winning his 1997 championship than both Lebron's 2012 and 2013.. Jordan carried about the same load in 1998 as Lebron's 2012, but carried less than Lebron's 2013.




PROPORTION OF TEAM PTS + AST WHILE PLAYER WAS ON FLOOR MINUS PROPORTION OF TO'S


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 40.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 51.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 48.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 38.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 52.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 41.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 31.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 45.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 46.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)


^^^^^ Looking at each player's proportion of points and assists minus their proportion of turnovers, Jordan carried a bigger load while winning his 1997 and 1998 rings than Lebron's load in 2012 and 2013.

As the data shows, old MJ won his LAST 2 championships while carrying a bigger load (proportion) of his team's points + assists after accounting for turnovers, than prime Lebron carried while winning his ONLY 2 championships.
.

[tmacattack33]

what's the point of getting higher proportion of your team's assists if you get a higher proportion of your team's turnovers too, thus canceling it out?

that's the point of the OP data: to arrive at each player's proportion of team points + assists, after accounting for their proportion of turnovers.

but i think i may have a solution to that circumvents your misunderstanding of basic math and the validity of the OP stats.. stay tuned

Three words:

Fukk the PROPORTION



LOL.

Stick to points, assists, and turnovers.

Or, if you want to adjust for a team's pace, which makes sense, use points/assists/turnovers per 100 possessions

[sdot_thadon]

You're data only shows efficiency - it doesn't include volume such as PPG, which is what drives winning, not efficiency.

We all saw how the Heat had the best efficiency of any Spurs opponent in 2014 playoffs, but they lost by the most (record amount), because their volume (PPG) was the lowest.

Also, the point of the OP data is to show who won while carrying the bigger load, so your data isn't relevant.
It does if you scroll dummy. Basically shows that Mj wasn't superior in many categories at all. But I'll just leave it there for your enjoyment. Oh and ask Nash's suns how much ppg drives winning, or Nellie's warriors. The game isn't so bland bro.

[knicksman]

I have never seen a supposed to be prime ATG get surpassed by a 7th pick, not expected to become a superstar in curry.

[3ball]

Stick to points, assists, and turnovers... Screw the "proportion"


You're missing the point - the point is to see which player carried the larger LOAD while winning their championships, which is why PROPORTION of team points, assists, and TO's is the key.






Fukk the PROPORTION


.
PROPORTION (%) OF TEAM PTS + AST WHILE PLAYER ON FLOOR (proportion of TO not subtracted)


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 69.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 63.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 72.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 62.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 67.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 75.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 75.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 75.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)


^^^^^ Looking at each player's proportion of points and assists ONLY, Jordan carried a bigger load while winning his 1997 championship than both Lebron's 2012 and 2013.. Jordan carried about the same load in 1998 as Lebron's 2012, but less than Lebron's 2013.




PROPORTION OF TEAM PTS + AST WHILE PLAYER WAS ON FLOOR MINUS PROPORTION OF TO'S


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 40.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 51.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 48.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 38.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 52.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 41.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 31.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 45.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 46.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)


^^^^^ Looking at each player's proportion of points and assists MINUS their proportion of turnovers, Jordan carried a bigger load while winning his 1997 and 1998 rings than Lebron's load in 2012 and 2013.

CLIFFS: As the data shows, old MJ won his LAST 2 championships while carrying a bigger load (proportion) of his team's points + assists after accounting for turnovers, than prime Lebron carried while winning his ONLY 2 championships.

[La Frescobaldi]

3rd ball left twisting in the wind

[Lebron23]

LeBron James

[3ball]

.
..........PROPORTION (%) OF TEAM PTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER ON FLOOR


........................RS.....RS 4th... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012.... 34.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 33.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 30.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 33.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013.... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 30.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 29.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)




PROPORTION OF TEAM PTS + AST WHILE PLAYER ON FLOOR (proportion of TO not subtracted)


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 69.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 63.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 72.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 62.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 67.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 75.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 75.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 75.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)




PROPORTION OF TEAM PTS + AST WHILE PLAYER WAS ON FLOOR MINUS PROPORTION OF TO'S


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 40.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 51.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 48.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 38.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 52.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 41.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 31.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 45.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 46.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



THREAD CLIFFS: Old MJ won his LAST 2 championships while carrying a bigger load than prime Lebron carried while winning his ONLY 2 championships.

(btw, regarding the stats that subtract turnovers - the math works out correctly - for instance, if a team has 5 assists and 5 TO's in the 4th quarter, and Lebron has 1 assist and 1 TO, then he had 20% of his team's assists and 20% of their TO's, so it's a wash)
.

[dubeta]

If Lebron had MJs 97', 98' runs, it would be BY FAR the worst playoffs of Lebrons career

[3ball]

If Lebron had Jordan's 97' and 98' runs, they would be BY FAR the worst playoffs of Lebrons career


Blatantly false - Jordan's 1997 and 1998 playoff PER's would rank 5th and 6th best in Lebron's 10 year playoff career... And Jordan's WS/48 would rank 4th and 5th.

Also, in the 1997 and 1998 Finals, Jordan hit 3 game winners, and also a series-winning assist - that's more clutch winners than Lebron has in his entire playoff career.

Finally, the data above shows that during Lebron's only 2 championship runs, his stats were achieved while carrying a smaller load than Jordan did during his LAST 2 championship runs.. Old man Jordan carried a bigger load while winning his rings than prime Lebron carried while winning his.