Why 3Ball Knows That '15 Lebron Would Have 3-Peated On Bulls From '96-98

[LAZERUSS]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12097602&postcount=54


Looking at each player's proportion of points and assists minus their proportion of turnovers, Jordan's 1997 and 1998 are both clearly superior to Lebron's 2012 and 2013.

As the data shows, old MJ won his last 2 championships while carrying a bigger load (proportion) of points + assists after accounting for turnovers, than prime Lebron's ONLY 2 championships.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12097565&postcount=52


You're data only shows efficiency - it doesn't include volume such as PPG, which is what drives winning, not efficiency.

'96 Finals: MJ averaged 27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg
'97 Finals: MJ averaged 32.3 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 6.0 apg
'98 Finals: MJ averaged 33.5 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 2.7 apg

'15 Finals: Lebron averaged 35.8 ppg, 13.3 rpg, 8.8 apg

Lebron = GOAT

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Lebron = GOAT

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

I thought you had Wilt as #1?

:confusedshrug:

[LAZERUSS]

I thought you had Wilt as #1?

:confusedshrug:

Hard to argue with 3ball.

If Lebron was that much better than MJ, well, he now has to be #1,

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[FKAri]

I thought you had Wilt as #1?

:confusedshrug:

Wilt's his number 1 aside from Lebron. It's implied. It's like when you ask what is the closest star to us? Ofcourse it's the Sun. But that's not the spirit of the question. The answer to the question then becomes Proxima Centauri.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's his number 1 aside from Lebron. It's implied. It's like when you ask what is the closest star to us? Ofcourse it's the Sun. But that's not the spirit of the question. The answer to the question then becomes Proxima Centauri.

That is exactly what I was going to post next...

you read my mind.

:cheers:

[tmacattack33]

"Proportion of a team's points and assists, minus turnovers"



LOL


This dude comes with the most ridiculous sh*t ever.

1. Why does proportion even matter in the first place...as opposed to just total numbers or numbers per possession?

2. Where the F are the rebounds?

3. Where the F are the efficiency numbers?

[LAZERUSS]

"Proportion of a team's points and assists, minus turnovers"



LOL


This dude comes with the most ridiculous sh*t ever.

1. Why does proportion even matter in the first place...as opposed to just total numbers or numbers per possession?

2. Where the F are the rebounds?

3. Where the F are the efficiency numbers?

MJ's '96-98 Finals edge Lebrons's '15 in the most critical stat, though...

TOV%

'98 MJ: 4.9%
'97: MJ 6.7%
'96: 10.6%

'15: Lebron: 8.5%

I guess I blew it...

[plowking]

What are Bron's averages from the 12, 13, 14 and 15 finals combined?

[LAZERUSS]

What are Bron's averages from the 12, 13, 14 and 15 finals combined?


Not relevant to the topic at hand.

Put '15 Lebron on the Bulls from '96-98, and with that Finals ppg, and he easily romps to 3 rings.

The importance is what I want it to be. I will use the stats that proof that Lebron was a greater Finals player in '15 than Jordan was in any of his Finals from '96-98.

Concrete evidence.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[imnew09]

Put Lebeta on the Jordan team he would come off the bench for Scottie

[tmacattack33]

Not relevant to the topic at hand.

Put '15 Lebron on the Bulls from '96-98, and with that Finals ppg, and he easily romps to 3 rings.

The importance is what I want it to be. I will use the stats that proof that Lebron was a greater Finals player in '15 than Jordan was in any of his Finals from '96-98.

Concrete evidence.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Yes, that is the 3Ball way. You are learning.

[Micku]

Not relevant to the topic at hand.

Put '15 Lebron on the Bulls from '96-98, and with that Finals ppg, and he easily romps to 3 rings.

The importance is what I want it to be. I will use the stats that proof that Lebron was a greater Finals player in '15 than Jordan was in any of his Finals from '96-98.

Concrete evidence.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

https://media.giphy.com/media/aq5y9pmdYB2Ny/giphy.gif

[LAZERUSS]

And how about this...

2nd highest scorer on the Bulls in each Finals...

'96 Pippen: 15.7 ppg
'97 Pippen: 20.0 ppg
'98 Pippen: 15.7 ppg

2nd highest scorer on the Cavs in '15 Finals...

Mosgov at 14.0 ppg


So we now know that Lebron did far more, with much less in '15, as well.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Angel Face]

30 > 22 > 18

:sleeping

[Lebron23]

Yeah, 3balls is a garbage poster, and a terrible human being.

[livinglegend]

:rolleyes:

[livinglegend]

MJ's record without Pippen starting, 1985-1989

38-44, lost 1-3 in the first round.
9-9, swept in the first round.
40-42, swept in the first round.
50-32, tied 2-2 in the first round after blowing a 2-0 lead. (Pippen starts Game 5, beasts, Bulls win and finally get out the first round with MJ)
13-12.

Pippen becomes a starter for the final 2/3 of 89' and the Bulls win 9 of 11 and go on a 32-15 roll after starting 13-12...and never looked back...

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Marchesk]

11 > 7 > 6

FTFY

[LAZERUSS]

30 > 22 > 18

:sleeping

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Can you imagine the staggering ppg that Wilt would have put up in the Finals, had he played against these clowns at the center slot...

'96 Sonics: Ervin Johnson and Frank Brickowski
'97 Jazz: Greg Ostertag
'98 Jazz: Greg Ostertag, Adam Keefe, Greg Foster

Easily 40+ ppg, and likely games of at least 64+...

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Angel Face]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Can you imagine the staggering ppg that Wilt would have put up in the Finals, had he played against these clowns at the center slot...

'96 Sonics: Ervin Johnson and Frank Brickowski
'97 Jazz: Greg Ostertag
'98 Jazz: Greg Ostertag, Adam Keefe, Greg Foster

Easily 40+ ppg, and likely games of at least 64+...

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

probably 18 ppg? :confusedshrug:

[livinglegend]

probably 18 ppg? :confusedshrug:
MJ's record without Pippen starting, 1985-1989

38-44, lost 1-3 in the first round.
9-9, swept in the first round.
40-42, swept in the first round.
50-32, tied 2-2 in the first round after blowing a 2-0 lead. (Pippen starts Game 5, beasts, Bulls win and finally get out the first round with MJ)
13-12.

Pippen becomes a starter for the final 2/3 of 89' and the Bulls win 9 of 11 and go on a 32-15 roll after starting 13-12...and never looked back...

[LAZERUSS]

probably 18 ppg? :confusedshrug:

Three straight FMVPs then...

'67: 17.5 ppg (he would have won a unanimous FMVP had the award existed.)
'72: 19.2 ppg FMVP

Just DOMINATED in both of those Finals and against HOFers at Center.

[Straight_Ballin]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12097602&postcount=54



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12097565&postcount=52



'96 Finals: MJ averaged 27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg
'97 Finals: MJ averaged 32.3 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 6.0 apg
'98 Finals: MJ averaged 33.5 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 2.7 apg

'15 Finals: Lebron averaged 35.8 ppg, 13.3 rpg, 8.8 apg

Lebron = GOAT

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Lebron averaged what he averaged in 2015 and he lost. Shitty fg% outside foul line.

Look at Lebron's averages when he won in the finals. He had higher IQ then.
MJ averaged what he averaged 96-98 and won.

2015 Bron isn't winning shit. Most absurd post of the month. You have a better argument using 2012 or 2013 bron.

You just made 3ball stay winning.

Great job! :facepalm

[sportjames23]

3ball got these nikkas SHOOK


HE

STAY

WINNING


:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[ShawkFactory]

Dude...don't make a thread about 3ball. That's adding kerosine to a pleasant bonfire

[FKAri]

3ball got these nikkas SHOOK


HE

STAY

WINNING


:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Shook? The last time 3ball shook someone was when he 'shook' his McDonald's manager's hand at the end of a job interview.

[dubeta]

Shook? The last time 3ball shook someone was when he 'shook' his McDonald's manager's hand at the end of a job interview.

:oldlol:

[3ball]

MJ's record without Pippen starting, 1985-1989

38-44, lost 1-3 in the first round.
9-9, swept in the first round.
40-42, swept in the first round.
50-32, tied 2-2 in the first round after blowing a 2-0 lead. (Pippen starts Game 5, beasts, Bulls win and finally get out the first round with MJ)
13-12.

Pippen becomes a starter for the final 2/3 of 89' and the Bulls win 9 of 11 and go on a 32-15 roll after starting 13-12...and never looked back...

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
2nd year pippen wasn't shit in 1989 compared to 2nd options on other teams - he was a scrawny 14/6 player in RS and averaged 10/5 in ECF vs. Pistons - it's amazing that Jordan was able to take the world champs to 6 games despite that kind of flimsy 2nd option help.

In 1990, Pippen was a decent 2nd option (16 ppg).. but he still wasn't ready - he choked in the biggest game of the year, which cost the bulls the championship that year - he was 1-10 in Game 7 of ECF.

The Bulls would've beaten Blazers in Finals, since the Pistons only needed 6 easy games to beat Blazers, but needed 7 tough games and Pippen choke to beat Bulls.. The Pistons had razor-thin ORtg advantage over Bulls, and much wider advantage over Blazers... Pippen cost the Bulls the 1990 championship.

[3ball]

Dude...don't make a thread about 3ball. That's adding kerosine to a pleasant bonfire
Aren't you the one that said Pippen was the Bulls "vocal leader"


:roll: :roll: :roll:


yup... that was you


:whatever: :kobe: :yaohappy:

[3ball]

Lebron averaged what he averaged in 2015 and he lost. Shitty fg% outside foul line.

Look at Lebron's averages when he won in the finals. He had higher IQ then.

MJ averaged what he averaged 96-98 and won.


This is true, except his smarter play was due to Spo... Spo actually reigned this guy in a little bit..

The stats show that he took far more catch-and-shoot jumpers on the Heat... :applause: ... Of course, we know MJ took a SUPER-ton of them - his JJ Redick game always kept defenses guessing and scratching their heads.

Don't get me wrong - Lebron and Harden were still the only non-point guards in the top 50 for time of possession (ball-dominance), so Lebron still employed a ball-dominant, point guard style..





2015 Bron isn't winning shit. Most absurd post of the month. You have a better argument using 2012 or 2013 bron.


Exactly - and how could Lebron beat the Utah Jazz by shooting 39% and playing horrrific defense by letting a role player be better > an all-time great (say, Byron Russell > Karl Malone)???

Especially considering Utah Jazz were adept at beating predictable star players by SWEEPING Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers in 1998 playoffs, and also Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs in 5 games (Spurs won 56 games)... And also Hakeem's Rockets in 1st Round.

They beat all these teams to make the 1998 Finals, but now they're going to let Lebron's 39% and horrific defense beat them?... No way obviously - it would be their easiest series of the playoffs.

[3ball]

3ball said:

You're data only shows efficiency - it doesn't include volume such as PPG, which is what drives winning, not efficiency.


You didn't post the entire quote - I was referring to Lebron and the Heat's foolish pursuit of high efficiency at the expense of PPG in the 2014 Finals.. However, just because Lebron and the Heat were willing to pursue high efficiency at the expense of PPG (they had LOW ppg), that doesn't mean a team or player can expect to win by shooting horrifically in the pursuit of HIGH ppg.

Obviously, shooting 39% while taking nearly 40% of your team's shots can't win... Especially if your defensive assignment is a 7 ppg role player (Iggy) that you allow to be better than an all-time great (Curry).. And especially if you dominate the ball at a ridiculous rate (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) (50% more than the RS leader) so teammates are predictable play-finishers that can't perform well against the the best playoff teams.

Jordan never did these things - he never shot 39%, and he never let Byron Russell be > Karl Malone.. And unlike Lebron, who never guarded Curry, Jordan guarded Stockton a lot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0)... He also had a heavier scoring load - in the 1997 and 1998 Finals, Jordan scored a higher proportion (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713728&postcount=54) of his team's points while on the floor than Lebron did in 2015 Finals.





'96 Finals: MJ averaged 27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg
'97 Finals: MJ averaged 32.3 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 6.0 apg
'98 Finals: MJ averaged 33.5 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 2.7 apg

'15 Finals: Lebron averaged 35.8 ppg, 13.3 rpg, 8.8 apg


Even more importantly than scoring a higher proportion of his team's points while on the floor, shooting better than 39%, and not letting Byron Russell be > Karl Malone - MJ got his stats off-ball and within the triangle offense, which didn't allow ball domination.

His off-ball play allowed the very strict and sophisticated triangle to WORK, which allowed teammates to play well and enabled a superior, more effective brand of basketball that worked against the better teams..

Otoh, Lebron's ball-dominance leads to an unsophisticated brand of basketball, which gets figured out by the best playoff teams.. This is why he has lost the last 3 games in each of his 4 Finals losses - the rigid Lebron-ball is unadjustable - once a team figures it out, it's blow-out city after that.





2015 Bron isn't winning shit. Most absurd post of the month.


Exactly - and how could Lebron beat the Utah Jazz by shooting 39% and playing horrrific defense by letting a role player be better > an all-time great (say, Byron Russell > Karl Malone)???

Especially considering the Utah Jazz were adept at beating predictable star players by SWEEPING Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers in 1998 WCF.. In the WCSF that same year, they crushed Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs in 5 games (Spurs won 56 games)... And also Hakeem's Rockets in the 1st Round.

They beat all these teams to make the 1998 Finals, but now they're going to let Lebron's 39% and his horrific, star-making defense beat them?... No way obviously - it would be their easiest series of the playoffs.
.

[LAZERUSS]

ordan never did these things - he never shot 39%, and he never let Byron Russell be > Karl Malone.. And unlike Lebron, who never guarded Curry, Jordan guarded Stockton a lot... He also had a heavier scoring load - in the 1997 and 1998 Finals, Jordan scored a higher proportion of his team's points while on the floor than Lebron did in 2015 Finals.

No, but he was pure shit in his last three Finals. He shot .455, .427, and just an abhorrant .415...all while scoring less, rebounding much less, and assisting far less than Lebron did in his '15 Finals.

The reality was, MJ had outstanding defenders in all six of his title runs, but particulary from '96-98. And there were even articles claiming Rodman sholuld have won the '96 FMVP, and Pippen the '98 FMVP.

Find me an article claiming that JR Smith should have won the '15 FMVP.

Furthermore, and this is just huge...Jordan's Bulls NEVER beat even a remotely GREAT team. The '97 and '98 Jazz? :roll: :roll: :roll: Malone and Stockton, and then goobers at the center position. The '96 Sonics? Give me a break. They didn't even have a legitimate scorer on that roster.

And youi can go right down the list. The '93 Suns were a horrific defensive team, especially at the guard position. The '92 Blazers were essentially the same team that a broken down '91 Lakers team beat up. And then the '91 Lakers and '91 Pistons were just complete SHELLS.

MJ had FAR greater supporting casts in the '90's. This is not even debatable.

Remove MJ from the Bulls and they went 55-27 with an injury-decimated roster.

Take Lebron away from the '15 Cavs, and they went 3-10. Take him off the floor in the Finals, and they shot something like 17%.

Of course, when Jordan had a considerably better roster in '87 than what Lebron had in his '15 Finals, and went up against a crumbling 59-23 Celtic team that would get destroyed by Magic in the Finals...MJ led his team to a sweeping loss with just a pathetic .417 FG%, and as he regularly did, hanging a POS clinching game of 9-35 from the field.

Meanwhile, Lebron, with "The Three Stooges" of Smith, Deli, and Shumpert, SINGLE-HANDEDLY carried the worst Finals roster since Wilt's '64 Warriors, to two wins, and two more narrow losses, against an all-time great 67-15 Warriors team.

Sorry to tell you...but a '15 Lebron on the '96-98 Bulls likely wins 70+ games every year, sets scoring records that would never be equaled, and maybe goes unbeaten in three straight post-seasons. Those Bulls teams were THAT great.

[jayfan]

The Bulls would've beaten Blazers in Finals, since the Pistons only needed 6 easy games to beat Blazers, but needed 7 tough games and Pippen choke to beat Bulls.. The Pistons had razor-thin ORtg advantage over Bulls, and much wider advantage over Blazers... Pippen cost the Bulls the 1990 championship.

:no: .. 5 games.







.

[PsychoBe]

Shook? The last time 3ball shook someone was when he 'shook' his McDonald's manager's hand at the end of a job interview.

okay i laughed :roll: :roll: :roll:

[sdot_thadon]

You didn't post the entire quote - I was referring to Lebron and the Heat's foolish pursuit of high efficiency at the expense of PPG in the 2014 Finals..
.
In a thread about 12 and 13 Lebron? :wtf: Hell of a backpedal you lying sack of ........:oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

In a thread about 12 and 13 Lebron? :wtf: Hell of a backpedal you lying sack of ........:oldlol:

I recall all of his anti-Lebron topics in which he ripped Lebron's inefficiency in his 2015 Finals, and then his useless efficiency in his 2014 Finals...but when it is clearly proven that Lebron was a far greater volume scorer in his 2015 Finals than MJ was in his '96-98 Finals. Then it is becomes about efficiency from 5 ft. And When Jordan had a higher scoring in his '96-98 Finals than Lebron did in his '14 Finals...but, on FAR worse efficiency...then it is about scoring VOLUME.


Same thing with teammates.

Lebron supposedly "cratered" his teammates, while Jordan got the maximum from his.

Yet, every team that Lebron joined had MASSIVE increases in wins, and in his last seasons with those teams, they either won 61 games, or went to the Finals. When he left them following those last seasons...records of 19-63 and 37-45.

How about Jordan's teammates? WE all know by now that they were a 55-27 team that was decimated by injuries, and still came within blown call away from going to the ECF's...

but not only that, Goofball will tell you that Pippen was a WOAT, and that Grant and Rodman were easily replaceable. BUT, MJ never came close to a title before Grant arrived. And then when he replaced Grant in '95, and after the Bulls nearly won a title without Jordan in '94, he once again failed miserably. How did he get his next three rings? Welcome Mr. Rodman.

BTW, Grant and Rodman were career WINNERS without Jordan. Take those two away from MJ, and he was a career loser.

[3ball]

No, but he was pure shit in his last three Finals. He shot .455, .427, and just an abhorrant .415...all while scoring less, rebounding much less, and assisting far less than Lebron did in his '15 Finals.


Pure lies... In those Finals, Jordan scored a HIGHER proportion (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713728&postcount=54) of his team's points while on the floor than Lebron did in 2015 Finals - that's a statistical fact.

Here's the reality - Lebron lost the 2015 Finals because he shot 39% and played horrible defense that allowed 7 ppg Iguoudala to be > Curry... Otoh, Jordan WON the 1998 Finals because he scored a higher proportion of his team's points on better efficiency, while playing great defense so Byron Russell wasn't > Karl Malone.

Those are the reasons Lebron LOST, while Jordan WON.





The '97 and '98 Jazz were not a good team.. They had Malone and Stockton, and then goobers at the center position.


The 1998 Jazz and their "goober" centers defeated the greatest group of centers any team has ever beaten to reach a Finals:

They beat Hakeem's Rockets in 1st round... They beat Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs in 5 games in 2nd Round...

And then swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers in WCF... No team has ever defeated this much talent just to MAKE a Finals..

But even though they beat Hakeem, Shaq, and Duncan/Popovich, they couldn't beat Jordan.

[AirBonner]

Pure lies... In those Finals, Jordan scored a HIGHER proportion (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713728&postcount=54) of his team's points while on the floor than Lebron did in 2015 Finals - that's a statistical fact.

Here's the reality - Lebron lost the 2015 Finals because he shot 39% and played horrible defense that allowed 7 ppg Iguoudala to be > Curry... Otoh, Jordan WON the 1998 Finals because he scored a higher proportion of his team's points on better efficiency, while playing great defense so Byron Russell wasn't > Karl Malone.

Those are the reasons Lebron LOST, while Jordan WON.



The 1998 Jazz and their "goober" centers defeated the greatest group of centers any team has ever beaten to reach a Finals:

They beat Hakeem's Rockets in 1st round... They beat Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs in 5 games in 2nd Round...

And then swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers in WCF... No team has ever defeated this much talent just to MAKE a Finals..

But even though they beat Hakeem, Shaq, and Duncan/Popovich, they couldn't beat Jordan.
You mean they couldn't beat Pippen. Jordan is a career loser without him.

[diamenz]

i cannot for the life of me see james functioning in a triangle offense. he's useless on offense unless he's pounding the ball and passing to 3 point shooters. he's also not a bail out scorer and closer like mj was. the defense speaks for itself. it just wouldn't work.