FLASHBACK:1994 game 5 refs and nba screw the bulls to protect MJ's legacy

[livinglegend]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4WjOUXZr7Q
They couldn't afford Bulls winning a championship without their golden boy MJ.

[BarberSchool]

http://i65.tinypic.com/6zyr8z.jpg

[GrapeApe]

That has become one of the most overblown plays in NBA history. It looked like there was some contact by Pippen, but if not, Davis sold it well. From the official's viewpoint it certainly looked like a foul. If anything, blame Davis for flopping. He still had to make the FT's and the Bulls still had a chance to win on the final possession. They didn't get it done. They had a chance to win game 7. They didn't get it done. They had opportunities to win that series, and the Bulls also benefited from some questionable calls earlier in the series.

[knicksman]

Still 2/6 and 6/6

[deja vu]

Even if they beat the Knicks, they still have to get past the Rockets.

[LAZERUSS]

It clearly cost the Bulls at least a shot at the Rockets in the Finals.

[Hey Yo]

Even if they beat the Knicks, they still have to get past the Rockets.
Would have had to get by the Pacers first in the ECF.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Retribution. Charles Smith got fouled for sure in 1993 but they never called it.

[deja vu]

Would have had to get by the Pacers first in the ECF.
Haha.. you're right. I thought it was in the ECF.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

The Knicks were up 3-2 honestly in the finals, they choked away a title.

[LAZERUSS]

The Knicks were up 3-2 honestly in the finals, they choked away a title.

THIS.

And keep in mind that neither the Rockets, nor the Knicks, had very talented supporting casts. The '94 Bulls were considerably deeper.

IMO, that ONE BLOWN CALL likely cost the '94 Bulls their 4th straight title.

[Da_Realist]

THIS.

And keep in mind that neither the Rockets, nor the Knicks, had very talented supporting casts. The '94 Bulls were considerably deeper.

IMO, that ONE BLOWN CALL likely cost the '94 Bulls their 4th straight title.

So the Bulls without MJ would have beaten a team that conceivably could've beaten the Bulls even with MJ. Funny.

[LAZERUSS]

So the Bulls without MJ would have beaten a team that conceivably could've beaten the Bulls even with MJ. Funny.

What is even more interesting...

the '94 Bulls were one blown call away (and robbed) of winning that series, 4-2.

In the '93 playoffs, and with MJ, they beat that same Knicks team by the same margin of 4-2.

And in '92, with Jordan, it was 4-3.

Just some more food for thought...

[Smoke117]

Would have had to get by the Pacers first in the ECF.

The bulls spanked the pacers in the regular season and would have an easier time versus them than they did vs the Knicks in the semi-finals.

[livinglegend]

That has become one of the most overblown plays in NBA history. It looked like there was some contact by Pippen, but if not, Davis sold it well. From the official's viewpoint it certainly looked like a foul. If anything, blame Davis for flopping. He still had to make the FT's and the Bulls still had a chance to win on the final possession. They didn't get it done. They had a chance to win game 7. They didn't get it done. They had opportunities to win that series, and the Bulls also benefited from some questionable calls earlier in the series.

It wasn't a foul. Davis admitted it.
You know very well if MJ was on the team, refs wouldnt call the ''foul''.

[imdaman99]

So the announcer showing the replays saying "He definitely fouled him" means nothing to you, OP?

Pippen was known for his choking, remember the game earlier he took himself out of the game on the final possession :roll:

Sorry, Pippen was a mental midget as a leader. They were not going all the way that year even if they did beat the Knicks.

[sportjames23]

Even if they beat the Knicks, they still have to get past the Rockets.

No, they would've had to get past the Pacers first. Why do people keep making the wrong statement in implying the Bulls were one game from the Finals?

The 1994 Bulls lost in the SECOND ROUND, not the Eastern Conference Finals. The Knicks and Pacers played in the ECF that year.

[sportjames23]

It clearly cost the Bulls at least a shot at the Rockets in the Finals.


Nope, but keep trying to push that bullshit.

[Akhenaten]

It wasn't a foul. Davis admitted it.


link?

2:59 to me clearly and definitively illustrates a foul :confusedshrug:

this is what pip fans been whining about all this time? That was a blasted foul, what's the problem?

[Akhenaten]

Technically a player is defined as being in the act of shooting from the time he goes up for the shot until after he has landed back on the ground. Except, as even Davis admits, "That's a call you normally don't get."

That's what Davis "admitted" stop trying to spread disinfo for your selfish agenda OP.

[LAZERUSS]

That's what Davis "admitted" stop trying to spread disinfo for your selfish agenda OP.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=Hollins-090529


Pippen got back a split-second too late, Davis released the ball and then Pippen made contact with Davis' arms on the follow-through. The shot bounced off the right side of the rim, and for the briefest of moments it appeared the Bulls were going to win the game. But Hollins had blown his whistle, a late whistle, just as the shot was approaching the rim.

"When I heard the whistle, it was like 'What happened? Who fouled?'" Pippen recalls. "I didn't think I had made a foul."

Technically a player is defined as being in the act of shooting from the time he goes up for the shot until after he has landed back on the ground. Except, as even Davis admits, "That's a call you normally don't get."

Today, with concern about defenders sliding under shooters and causing injuries, it gets called more often. That wasn't the case back then, and certainly not with a playoff outcome riding on it. Steve Kerr had been hit the same way several times that year, his first with the Bulls, and never was sent to the free-throw line.

"I went to the ref every time and they said, 'It doesn't matter, the shot was released," Kerr says. "Back then it was not called. And every time I asked the ref, I got the exact same explanation: Once you release the shot it doesn't matter."

This time Davis was awarded two free throws. He made them both and the Knicks won.
After the game, Phil Jackson didn't take any questions when he addressed the media. He made one statement that lasted exactly 38 seconds. His main point: "I've seen a lot of things happen in the NBA, but I've never seen anything happen like what happened at the end of the game."

The Knicks wound up winning the series in seven games.



No, they would've had to get past the Pacers first. Why do people keep making the wrong statement in implying the Bulls were one game from the Finals?

The 1994 Bulls lost in the SECOND ROUND, not the Eastern Conference Finals. The Knicks and Pacers played in the ECF that year.

The Bull routed the Pacers during the season, 4-1. It would have just been a formality.



BTW, Pippen and Grant missed a combined 22 games in that '94 season. Had they been relatively healthy, and they surely would have won 60+ games. Which as we now know, would have been HUGE. They wound up losing by a game seven without HCA.(and really a blown call away from winning the series in six), and they had gone 5-0 on their home floor in the playoffs that year.

Then, the 56-26 Knicks lost a game seven to the 58-24 Rockets by four points. A 60+ win Bulls team would have had HCA in both series, and likely a title.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

THIS.

And keep in mind that neither the Rockets, nor the Knicks, had very talented supporting casts. The '94 Bulls were considerably deeper.

IMO, that ONE BLOWN CALL likely cost the '94 Bulls their 4th straight title.

The '92 and '93 Knicks were arguably better all around than the '94 Knicks.

[SexSymbol]

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=Hollins-090529






The Bull routed the Pacers during the season, 4-1. It would have just been a formality.



BTW, Pippen and Grant missed a combined 22 games in that '94 season. Had they been relatively healthy, and they surely would have won 60+ games. Which as we now know, would have been HUGE. They wound up losing by a game seven without HCA.(and really a blown call away from winning the series in six), and they had gone 5-0 on their home floor in the playoffs that year.

Then, the 56-26 Knicks lost a game seven to the 58-24 Rockets by four points. A 60+ win Bulls team would have had HCA in both series, and likely a title.
So he said it was a foul just call you don't normally get because refs tend to forget everything about rules in the last minutes of the game?
If anything, refs were actually doing their job

[guy]

The bulls spanked the pacers in the regular season and would have an easier time versus them than they did vs the Knicks in the semi-finals.

That logic doesn't really work that well. Knicks had an even easier time with the Pacers in the regular season then the Bulls did and look how that worked out. So there's absolutely no guarantee that they beat the Pacers, who were peaking at the right time, if they beat the Knicks.

Furthermore, the Knicks faced the exact same situation against the Pacers that they would've faced against the Bulls had they lost that game 5. Both teams won their home games until game 5 where the Pacers won on the road. The Knicks had to win on the road to avoid elimination and they did. Knicks were clearly capable of doing the same against Chicago. You can't just assume that the same exact game 6 would've happened cause it's a completely different mindset and sense of urgency.

So the Bulls were far from a questionable call, which as has been noted has been way overblown and which Hubie Brown agreed was a foul, from making the finals. They still had to beat the Knicks AND the Pacers, both of which were far from a certainty.

[diamenz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4WjOUXZr7Q
They couldn't afford Bulls winning a championship without their golden boy MJ.

don't care much for mj, do you? what kind of a basketball fan r u anyway?

[LAZERUSS]

So he said it was a foul just call you don't normally get because refs tend to forget everything about rules in the last minutes of the game?
If anything, refs were actually doing their job

Just watch a typical NBA game today. Players are literally CARRYING or PALMING the ball on nearly EVERY possession. Can you imagine...at the very end of a one-point playoff game...if an official blew a whistle for palming????

And that doesn't even take into account the stupidity of the rule. Calling a foul for brushing a shooters arm AFTER he has released the ball? That literally has no significance on the shot whatsoever? Granted, if he had plowed into Davis and knocked him into the seats, sure...blow the whistle. But basically wiping his arm with the touch of a tissue...AND, ...AFTER he has released the shot?

Just a pathetic call by a coward official in what could have been a hostile environment.

[LAZERUSS]

don't care much for mj, do you? what kind of a basketball fan r u anyway?

The thing is...3ball constantly inundates this forum with nonsense like..."Jordan had the least amount of a GOAT in his title runs." Or even worse..."Grant was basically an average PF, and Pippen was a WOAT."

And he will use Magic and Bird as some kind of argument. Sure Magic and Bird had more help...in the 80's...when they were routinely facing super-stacked rosters with 3-4-5 HOFers. BTW, Magic went on to lead teams to a BETTER record withOUT Kareem after he retired.

He never acknowledges just how watered-down the 90's were either. The reality was, he had FAR more help than the best teams of that decade. Again, an injury-riddled Bulls team that went 55-27 without him, and were robbed of going to the ECF's, where they would have faced a team that they had waxed during the season, 4-1. And that Knicks team that were gifted that series win over those Bulls, led the Rockets in the Finals, 3-2, before losing the last two games by margins of 2 and 4 points.

And that was reality. The '94 Bulls were every bit as good a team as both the Knicks and the champion Rockets. And all accomplished without Jordan.

And in '95, they lost Grant, and didn't even replace him. So Pippen, now without BOTH Jordan and Grant...carried that roster, basically comprised of some quality role players, to a 34-31 record without BOTH of them (and BTW, they had gone 8-2 in their last 10 games and were actually playing even better.)

Which was yet another black-eye for the Jordanites. When MJ saw the opportunity to steal a ring in an obviously weak era, he immediately came back. And by his 5th game hung a 55 point effort. Hell, he was the most refreshed, and healthiest player in the post-season. And yet, he couldn't carry the SAME EXACT roster, sans GRANT, any further than the '94 Bulls had gone the year before, and without him. In fact, they were a considerably WORSE 2nd round team. They were easily beaten 4-2 by GRANT's Magic, the same Magic team that would get swept in the Finals by a 47-35 Rockets team.

And the Bulls brass took one look at the '95 Bulls, and conceded that they would never sniff another ring again without an ELITE Super-star PF like Grant. So they went out an signed Rodman, who would not only anchor their defense, but lead the league in rebounding three straight seasons.

Jordan won his six rings with, BY FAR, the most stacked rosters...relative to league competition...by a GOAT candidate. Not even close.

[Overdrive]

Just watch a typical NBA game today. Players are literally CARRYING or PALMING the ball on nearly EVERY possession. Can you imagine...at the very end of a one-point playoff game...if an official blew a whistle for palming????

And that doesn't even take into account the stupidity of the rule. Calling a foul for brushing a shooters arm AFTER he has released the ball? That literally has no significance on the shot whatsoever? Granted, if he had plowed into Davis and knocked him into the seats, sure...blow the whistle. But basically wiping his arm with the touch of a tissue...AND, ...AFTER he has released the shot?

Just a pathetic call by a coward official in what could have been a hostile environment.

You never played basketball in your life. A player fouling after the shot can alter the shot itself, when he charges at you fullspeed. I surely would want to avoid contact with Pippen in that very scene - that's why Davis "flopped". The touch was slight, but he tried to avoid getting blocked and then hit like by an NFL-like tackle. You don't do that with the defender jumping straight up.

3 or 4 years ago there was a streak of 4-point plays in the playoffs with those kind of fouls.

[LAZERUSS]

You never played basketball in your life. A player fouling after the shot can alter the shot itself, when he charges at you fullspeed. I surely would want to avoid contact with Pippen in that very scene - that's why Davis "flopped". The touch was slight, but he tried to avoid getting blocked and then hit like by an NFL-like tackle. You don't do that with the defender jumping straight up.

3 or 4 years ago there was a streak of 4-point plays in the playoffs with those kind of fouls.

He didn't hit "like an NFL-like tackle" you idiot. He BRUSHED his arm as he ran PAST him ...not THRU him.

OBVIOUSLY, it is YOU that has never played basketball in his life. Hell, in a rec league that would never have been called. Nor a game amongst friends after work. You would be called a pansie (actually worse) for even suggesting that you were fouled on a play like that.

And again, as Kerr mentioned...it was NEVER called in that era.

It was a HORRIBLE call...plain-and-simple.

[Overdrive]

He didn't hit "like an NFL-like tackle" you idiot. He BRUSHED his arm as he ran PAST him ...not THRU him.

OBVIOUSLY, it is YOU that has never played basketball in his life. Hell, in a rec league that would never have been called. Nor a game amongst friends after work. You would be called a pansie (actually worse) for even suggesting that you were fouled on a play like that.

And again, as Kerr mentioned...it was NEVER called in that era.

It was a HORRIBLE call...plain-and-simple.

You're mad. Hit a nerve?

He charged at him at full speed. If you're in the air you can't know if he hits you straight or just brushes you as you say. Of course he wasn't hit in the chest or anything like that. I'M not blind, but you didn't get my point so I repeat.

If someone runs at you at full speed while you set up for your shot and then jumps in your direction you alter your shot for fear of collision. If you then get hit it is consequential by the refs to call foul. What about the word avoid don't you understand?

[97 bulls]

Darrell Garettson was the head of officiating and he said it was a bad call

"All I can say is that it was a terrible call," said Garretson, who retired from active duty at the end of last season. "Any time an official calls a game, he hopes he doesn't make any, but that wasn't the only one."

"I have no problem admitting when I kicked the hell out of a play," he said. "And I have no problem admitting when one of my officials does the same thing."

It was a bad call.

[livinglegend]

Darrell Garettson was the head of officiating and he said it was a bad call

"All I can say is that it was a terrible call," said Garretson, who retired from active duty at the end of last season. "Any time an official calls a game, he hopes he doesn't make any, but that wasn't the only one."

"I have no problem admitting when I kicked the hell out of a play," he said. "And I have no problem admitting when one of my officials does the same thing."

It was a bad call.

this

[Wade's Rings]

IIRC the Cavs had 2 injuries to key players that year. Is it a guarantee the Bulls even beat a healthy Cavs team that year?

Why is this always overlooked but the "Bulls were 1 BS call away from making the Finals" is always said?

[livinglegend]

So he said it was a foul just call you don't normally get because refs tend to forget everything about rules in the last minutes of the game?
If anything, refs were actually doing their job

Today, with concern about defenders sliding under shooters and causing injuries, it gets called more often. That wasn't the case back then, and certainly not with a playoff outcome riding on it. Steve Kerr had been hit the same way several times that year, his first with the Bulls, and never was sent to the free-throw line.

"I went to the ref every time and they said, 'It doesn't matter, the shot was released," Kerr says. "Back then it was not called. And every time I asked the ref, I got the exact same explanation: Once you release the shot it doesn't matter."

It was clear the NBA didn't want to affect MJ's image.
They were already promoting him as the GOAT. Jordan rules were in place.
He was the image of the NBA. No way they let Pippen and Bulls affect that image.
It would be a huge hit to the ratings.

[livinglegend]

He didn't hit "like an NFL-like tackle" you idiot. He BRUSHED his arm as he ran PAST him ...not THRU him.

OBVIOUSLY, it is YOU that has never played basketball in his life. Hell, in a rec league that would never have been called. Nor a game amongst friends after work. You would be called a pansie (actually worse) for even suggesting that you were fouled on a play like that.

And again, as Kerr mentioned...it was NEVER called in that era.

It was a HORRIBLE call...plain-and-simple.

The bolded part is very important.

[97 bulls]

IIRC the Cavs had 2 injuries to key players that year. Is it a guarantee the Bulls even beat a healthy Cavs team that year?

Why is this always overlooked but the "Bulls were 1 BS call away from making the Finals" is always said?
Injuries are a part of the game. What's important isn't so much the call. Bad calls are a part of fhe game. But what they did in 94 trumps those that attempt to argue that Jordan's teammates weren't very good.

[ClipperRevival]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4WjOUXZr7Q
They couldn't afford Bulls winning a championship without their golden boy MJ.

It was a foul. Anytime a defender is coming that hard and fast on a shooter and isn't able to go to either side of the shooter but runs right into him and contacts him in the act, that's a foul. Pip hit him down on the legs and on his arm. Dumb play by Pip. If he was going to come that hard, he should've at least gone to either side and avoid direct contact.

[ClipperRevival]

Oh, and since this clearly an agenda driven thread, 6/6 over 2/6.

[97 bulls]

It was a foul. Anytime a defender is coming that hard and fast on a shooter and isn't able to go to either side of the shooter but runs right into him and contacts him in the act, that's a foul. Pip hit him down on the legs and on his arm. Dumb play by Pip. If he was going to come that hard, he should've at least gone to either side and avoid direct contact.
Dude. Did you not read Garettsons quote? It was a bad call. A call thats not made. You have just as big of an agenda as the Lebron fans.

[ClipperRevival]

You never played basketball in your life. A player fouling after the shot can alter the shot itself, when he charges at you fullspeed. I surely would want to avoid contact with Pippen in that very scene - that's why Davis "flopped". The touch was slight, but he tried to avoid getting blocked and then hit like by an NFL-like tackle. You don't do that with the defender jumping straight up.

3 or 4 years ago there was a streak of 4-point plays in the playoffs with those kind of fouls.

You'll have to forgive Laz, he hasn't picked up a bball in like 50 years. So his reality is distorted. He's an Ilt fan and thinks greatness is measured strictly by individual stats. He hates MJ with a passion because he succeeded where Ilt failed. 6/6 is a lot better than 2/6. So his sole mission is to degrade other greats like MJ to bring them down to "The Big Dipper's" level.

[ClipperRevival]

Dude. Did you not read Garettsons quote? It was a bad call. A call thats not made. You have just as big of an agenda as the Lebron fans.

I don't give a f'ck what one official has to say about that play. I know the game and have played it for over 25 straight years. I can make the call for myself. That was a foul. If you can't see that, too bad.

[97 bulls]

I don't give a f'ck what one official has to say about that play. I know the game and have played it for over 25 straight years. I can make the call for myself. That was a foul. If you can't see that, too bad.
Lol. Ok. As long as we know where you're coming from. Agenda

[ClipperRevival]

Dude. Did you not read Garettsons quote? It was a bad call. A call thats not made. You have just as big of an agenda as the Lebron fans.

I don't have an agenda. My stance is that MJ is the GOAT. And that is near absolute truth. KAJ had the longevity and greater college career so he has a case as GOAT if we are looking at the entire resume. Russell was the GOAT winner. But no single player had MJs level of CONSISTENT DOMINANCE like MJ.

[livinglegend]

I don't give a f'ck what one official has to say about that play. I know the game and have played it for over 25 straight years. I can make the call for myself. That was a foul. If you can't see that, too bad.

and you say i m agenda driven :oldlol: :oldlol:
The official, the offensive player and kerr all admitted that it was a bad call.
Accept it and move on.
You know very well that with Jordan on team, that same exact call wouldn't be made.

[livinglegend]

I don't have an agenda. My stance is that MJ is the GOAT. And that is near absolute truth. KAJ had the longevity and greater college career so he has a case as GOAT if we are looking at the entire resume. Russell was the GOAT winner. But no single player had MJs level of CONSISTENT DOMINANCE like MJ.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
''I don't have an agenda, but my opinion is the truth'':oldlol: :oldlol:
You sound like a delusional stupid wacko

[ClipperRevival]

and you say i m agenda driven :oldlol: :oldlol:
The official, the offensive player and kerr all admitted that it was a bad call.
Accept it and move on.
You know very well that with Jordan on team, that same exact call wouldn't be made.

No, that's a call that the refs might not call in that situation but because Pip came that hard on the shooter and couldn't avoid hitting him, the refs almost had to call it. Like I said, if Pip had just came hard but went by the shooter, it would not have been a foul. It was a dumb play by Pip to come that hard and run DIRECTLY into the shooter.

[livinglegend]

Jordan stans are the only stans who can't accept other people having a different opinion than them.
As soon as someone tries to explain their point of view, that person is agenda drive or delusional.
The ''truth'' (which doesn't exist when giving subjective opinions) is their opinion.

[97 bulls]

I don't have an agenda. My stance is that MJ is the GOAT. And that is near absolute truth. KAJ had the longevity and greater college career so he has a case as GOAT if we are looking at the entire resume. Russell was the GOAT winner. But no single player had MJs level of CONSISTENT DOMINANCE like MJ.
I agree with you. Jordan is the GOAT in my opinion. And truthfully most people's opinions. No less than top 3. But Jordan fans are the only ones that go out of their way to undermine his teammates and try to create this perception that he didn't have a great amount of help. That he won by himself almost in spite of the team he had. We don't get that from those that side with Jabaar, or Russell, or Chamberlain. But Jordan's team was the most succesful.

[livinglegend]

No, that's a call that the refs might not call in that situation but because Pip came that hard on the shooter and couldn't avoid hitting him, the refs almost had to call it. Like I said, if Pip had just came hard but went by the shooter, it would not have been a foul. It was a dumb play by Pip to come that hard and run DIRECTLY into the shooter.


Today, with concern about defenders sliding under shooters and causing injuries, it gets called more often. That wasn't the case back then, and certainly not with a playoff outcome riding on it. Steve Kerr had been hit the same way several times that year, his first with the Bulls, and never was sent to the free-throw line.

"I went to the ref every time and they said, 'It doesn't matter, the shot was released," Kerr says. "Back then it was not called. And every time I asked the ref, I got the exact same explanation: Once you release the shot it doesn't matter."
it was clearly a bad call.
It's almost never called, but they decide to call it at the end of one of the most important games of the season. :hammerhead:

[ClipperRevival]

Jordan stans are the only stans who can't accept other people having a different opinion than them.
As soon as someone tries to explain their point of view, that person is agenda drive or delusional.
The ''truth'' (which doesn't exist when giving subjective opinions) is their opinion.

Lol. Show me another player who played at MJs level for an entire career? I am talking about CONSISTENT DOMINANCE. Like winning 10 scoring titles in 11 eligible seasons as a Bull. Like winning 6 rings and 6 fmvp and leading the league in scoring all those 6 years to. Like holding the highest PER ever for regular season and playoffs. Like highest scoring average ever for both regular season and playoffs. No one did it like MJ.

Some guys had similiar peaks but their valleys were much lower than MJs. MJ never really had a bad stretch as a Bull in terms of bad seasons. He was a dominant individual force from the get go and once he had enought help to win, he never let go of his crown.

[97 bulls]

No, that's a call that the refs might not call in that situation but because Pip came that hard on the shooter and couldn't avoid hitting him, the refs almost had to call it. Like I said, if Pip had just came hard but went by the shooter, it would not have been a foul. It was a dumb play by Pip to come that hard and run DIRECTLY into the shooter.
Lol. It was never called. Why are you not getting this? The NBA, the Head of Officiating, the player that got the call, all said it was a bad call. You calling it a dumb play by Pippen shows you're agenda.

[livinglegend]

Lol. Show me another player who played at MJs level for an entire career? I am talking about CONSISTENT DOMINANCE. Like winning 10 scoring titles in 11 eligible seasons as a Bull. Like winning 6 rings and 6 fmvp and leading the league in scoring all those 6 years to. Like holding the highest PER ever for regular season and playoffs. Like highest scoring average ever for both regular season and playoffs. No one did it like MJ.

Some guys had similiar peaks but their valleys were much lower than MJs. MJ never really had a bad stretch as a Bull in terms of bad seasons. He was a dominant individual force from the get go and once he had enought help to win, he never let go of his crown.

Russell, Wilt, KAJ all have great cases for GOAT.

[ClipperRevival]

it was clearly a bad call.
It's almost never called, but they decide to call it at the end of one of the most important games of the season. :hammerhead:

I am well aware that they didn't call it as tight back in those days. But still, for this specific play, Pip just came too hard and ran directly into Hubert for the refs to swallow the whistle. Pip should've been smarter. Anyone who plays knows that running that hard directly into a shooter is just DUMB.

[livinglegend]

I am well aware that they didn't call it as tight back in those days. But still, for this specific play, Pip just came too hard and ran directly into Hubert for the refs to swallow the whistle. Pip should've been smarter. Anyone who plays knows that running that hard directly into a shooter is just DUMB.

Read 97bulls's last post.

[ClipperRevival]

Russell, Wilt, KAJ all have great cases for GOAT.

KAJ has a case. Russell if you value winning. Ilt? Hell no. Not after 1968 and 1969.

Again, i am saying that no one had MJs consistent level of dominance. His normal season was a peak season for other greats and he maintained this level his entire Bull career. His worst years were amazing seasons for almost anyone else. His valleys simply were still amazing and his peaks were GOAT level.

[livinglegend]

KAJ has a case. Russell if you value winning. Ilt? Hell no. Not after 1968 and 1969.

Again, i am saying that no one had MJs consistent level of dominance. His normal season was a peak season for other greats and he maintained this level his entire Bull career. His worst years were amazing seasons for almost anyone else. His valleys simply were still amazing and his peaks were GOAT level.

Good for you if you think he is the goat.
I am not here to change your opinion.
I just wanted to point out how and why the bulls got screwed in 1994 playoffs.

[ClipperRevival]

Lol. It was never called. Why are you not getting this? The NBA, the Head of Officiating, the player that got the call, all said it was a bad call. You calling it a dumb play by Pippen shows you're agenda.

What agenda? I am giving my opinion on that one play. The OP said the refs made that call to protect MJs legacy. :oldlol: Now that's an agenda. I am not 3ball. I have said many times that 3ball is completely unfair to MJs supporting cast. I know Pip was one of the GOAT second fiddle stars and a GOAT level all-around player and Grant was a solid 3rd wheel during his prime.

[LAZERUSS]

KAJ has a case. Russell if you value winning. Ilt? Hell no. Not after 1968 and 1969.

Again, i am saying that no one had MJs consistent level of dominance. His normal season was a peak season for other greats and he maintained this level his entire Bull career. His worst years were amazing seasons for almost anyone else. His valleys simply were still amazing and his peaks were GOAT level.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

You want "failures?"

I love these ridiculous 6/6 arguments.

REALITY: Jordan went 6/15. Yes...6/15. Not only that, but he was such pure trash, that he played on LOSING teams FIVE teams in his career.

How about his rookie season? Barely helped the Bulls at all. They went from a 27 win team to a 38 win team. Wilt, Kareem, Robinson, Bird, and Magic all had FAR greater impacts.

And then he gets wiped out in the first round of the playoffs, and in a series in which he was BADLY outplayed by Sidney Mongrief. And in the clinching game three loss...6-16 from the field.

Hell, how about his '86 post-season? Everyone remembers his 63 point (achieved in double OT BTW) LOSS. How about the clinching game of that series (a blowout loss BTW)? 19 points on 8-18 shooting.

Furthermore, in his highest scoring season, he shot-jacked his team right out of the first round in a SWEEPING loss. Which included a clinching game three performance of 9-35 from the field. BTW, Magic would destroy that same Celtic team in the Finals.

Let's move to his '88 season. How did his team FINALLY get above .500? Not because of HIM. The Bulls added Pippen and Grant. He finally had a QUALITY supporting cast.

But, in the ECSF's, his numbers drop off the cliff from his regular season numbers (down from 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%...to 27.4 ppg on a .491.) And, as expected his team is annihilated by a Piston team that Magic would dominate in the Finals.

In '88-89...more of the same. Against the Pistons in the ECF's, and in a series tied 2-2...he up and QUITS on his team. Just mailed it in. Thanks to him and his feeble efforts, the Bulls are eliminated by the Bad Boys, 4-2. Oh, and as always, his numbers drop like a lead balloon against them. WAY down. From 32.5 ppg on a .538...to 29.7 on a .460.

In his 89-90 season, he now has a roster the EQUAL of the Pistons. In fact, Detroit barely edges Chicago by a 59 to 55 win margin. And it shows in their ECF H2H. The Pistons win the series, 4-3, but MJ's horrific game two performance of 20 points on 5-16 shooting, in a nine point loss, dooms the team. They are blown out in game seven.

OK, in '90-91 he FINALLY wins a title. Did he elevate his game to do so? Hell no. It is PIPPEN and GRANT who ELEVATE their's. And, of course, his Bulls beat two teams that are just shells from their 80's seasons...the Pistons and the Lakers. To be honest, the rest of the decade is exactly like the '91 season. Jordan now has, BY FAR, the best supporting casts for the ALL six of his rings.

How good were those rosters? Look no further than '94. Jordan suddenly retires, and the Bulls scramble to replace him...with PETE MYERS. Surely without MJ the Bulls must have folded their tents, right?

Hell no. They hardly miss a beat. They go from a 57-25 team that needed a Paxson shot to survive in the Finals...all the way down to a 55-27 team, that is cheated out of a ECSF's win, by a team that blows a 3-2 series lead in the Finals, and loses the last two games by margins of 2, and 4 points. Then think about this...Jordan's "replacement", the legendary PETE MYERS...averaged 6 ppg in that series.

Not only that, but Chicago's two best players miss a combined 22 games in that '94 season.. Had those two been reasonably healthy, and they would easily have won 60+ games. And with HCA, where they would go 5-0 BTW, likely a title...and all accomplished withOUT Jordan.

BUT, it then gets even worse for the Jordan legacy. Grant bolts for Orlando, where he immediately improves them from a 50 win first round cannon fodder team, to a Finalist.

In the meantime, Pippen is now without BOTH Grant and Jordan, and he STILL carries the Bulls to a 34-31 record. Oh, and in their last ten games... 8-2. Jordan sees the opportunity to steal a ring, so he comes back and plays the last 17 games of the season, and is fully refreshed and the healthiest player in the playoffs. In fact, his playoff numbers are nearly identical to his '93 run, and would be considerably better than his '96 run. The result? A second round beatdown at the hands of GRANT's Magic. And to add salt to that wound...the Magic are swept by a 47-35 team in the Finals.

The bottom line? Jordan's IMPACT on the '95 Bulls was WORSE than Grant's impact on the '94 Bulls.

Ok, the Bulls ownership KNOWS that Jordan will never be capable of winning another ring without a super-star PF like Grant, so they go out and ADD Rodman. Think about that. Jordan basically replaces Grant on an injury-decimated 55-27 team, but can't get them as far...and then the Bulls ADD Rodman to that roster. No wonder they would run away from the rest of the very watered down league in their last three title runs.

In fact, MJ can shoot .455, .427, and even a ghastly .415 in his last three Finals, and with that overwhelming supporting cast...he STILL wins three more rings.


As for KAJ. He went 6-20, but needed Magic's FIVE. Shaq went 4-19, but needed Kobe to get past the Spurs in '01 and '02, and then Wade in '06. And, he was SWEPT SIX times in the post-season, and nearly EIGHT.

You can go right down the list. Hell, Hakeem went 2-18, and was BLOWN OUT in the FIRST ROUND ... EIGHT TIMES.

Russell won 11 titles, nine of them in the Wilt-era, and was either outplayed, or downright DESTROYED by Chamberlain in EVERY one of them. In fact, Wilt was a total of nine points away, by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points, from holding a 5-3 H2H edge over Russell.

Of course, we witnessed what happened when Wilt had a roster that was the EQUAL of Russell's, and HEALTHY, in '67. And he and his Sixers just carpet-bombed Russell and his eight-time defending and 60-21 Celtics, 4-1, and missed a sweep in game four by four points.

Rings are about TEAM success. And none other than John Wooden said it best. Had Russell and Wilt swapped rosters (and coaches), and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

So you can take your "6-6" and shove it up your ass. Jordan was 6-15, and needed his TEAMMATES to win those six.

[kennethgriffin]

looking back at it... it was a foul. but it shouldnt have been called due to it being the end of a playoff game and after the release


but it was a legit foul in the end. he hit him on the arm




if it was in chicago the refs dont call it

[ClipperRevival]

Damn Laz,

I didn't know MJ was living that much in your head rent free. There is no point getting into an argument with you regarding this matter because you bring zero objevtivity to the table.

You say it's a team game but bash MJ for losing to a great Bucks team that won 58 games when MJ was a rookie and had no help. Ditto for the GOAT level Celtics and Pistons teams.

1968 and 1969 still haunting Ilt's legacy and it kills you. So you feel the need to bring MJ down to Ilt's level.

And let the stupid ass copy and paste continue....

[deja vu]

looking back at it... it was a foul. but it shouldnt have been called due to it being the end of a playoff game and after the release


but it was a legit foul in the end. he hit him on the arm




if it was in chicago the refs dont call it
Agree. It was a foul but refs usually don't call it during the last few seconds. But it was in New York so they called it. :pimp:

[livinglegend]

Agree. It was a foul but refs usually don't call it during the last few seconds. But it was in New York so they called it. :pimp:

They almost never called it back in the days.
Don't look a 1994 game from today's perspective.

[livinglegend]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

You want "failures?"

I love these ridiculous 6/6 arguments.

REALITY: Jordan went 6/15. Yes...6/15. Not only that, but he was such pure trash, that he played on LOSING teams FIVE teams in his career.

How about his rookie season? Barely helped the Bulls at all. They went from a 27 win team to a 38 win team. Wilt, Kareem, Robinson, Bird, and Magic all had FAR greater impacts.

And then he gets wiped out in the first round of the playoffs, and in a series in which he was BADLY outplayed by Sidney Mongrief. And in the clinching game three loss...6-16 from the field.

Hell, how about his '86 post-season? Everyone remembers his 63 point (achieved in double OT BTW) LOSS. How about the clinching game of that series (a blowout loss BTW)? 19 points on 8-18 shooting.

Furthermore, in his highest scoring season, he shot-jacked his team right out of the first round in a SWEEPING loss. Which included a clinching game three performance of 9-35 from the field. BTW, Magic would destroy that same Celtic team in the Finals.

Let's move to his '88 season. How did his team FINALLY get above .500? Not because of HIM. The Bulls added Pippen and Grant. He finally had a QUALITY supporting cast.

But, in the ECSF's, his numbers drop off the cliff from his regular season numbers (down from 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%...to 27.4 ppg on a .491.) And, as expected his team is annihilated by a Piston team that Magic would dominate in the Finals.

In '88-89...more of the same. Against the Pistons in the ECF's, and in a series tied 2-2...he up and QUITS on his team. Just mailed it in. Thanks to him and his feeble efforts, the Bulls are eliminated by the Bad Boys, 4-2. Oh, and as always, his numbers drop like a lead balloon against them. WAY down. From 32.5 ppg on a .538...to 29.7 on a .460.

In his 89-90 season, he now has a roster the EQUAL of the Pistons. In fact, Detroit barely edges Chicago by a 59 to 55 win margin. And it shows in their ECF H2H. The Pistons win the series, 4-3, but MJ's horrific game two performance of 20 points on 5-16 shooting, in a nine point loss, dooms the team. They are blown out in game seven.

OK, in '90-91 he FINALLY wins a title. Did he elevate his game to do so? Hell no. It is PIPPEN and GRANT who ELEVATE their's. And, of course, his Bulls beat two teams that are just shells from their 80's seasons...the Pistons and the Lakers. To be honest, the rest of the decade is exactly like the '91 season. Jordan now has, BY FAR, the best supporting casts for the ALL six of his rings.

How good were those rosters? Look no further than '94. Jordan suddenly retires, and the Bulls scramble to replace him...with PETE MYERS. Surely without MJ the Bulls must have folded their tents, right?

Hell no. They hardly miss a beat. They go from a 57-25 team that needed a Paxson shot to survive in the Finals...all the way down to a 55-27 team, that is cheated out of a ECSF's win, by a team that blows a 3-2 series lead in the Finals, and loses the last two games by margins of 2, and 4 points. Then think about this...Jordan's "replacement", the legendary PETE MYERS...averaged 6 ppg in that series.

Not only that, but Chicago's two best players miss a combined 22 games in that '94 season.. Had those two been reasonably healthy, and they would easily have won 60+ games. And with HCA, where they would go 5-0 BTW, likely a title...and all accomplished withOUT Jordan.

BUT, it then gets even worse for the Jordan legacy. Grant bolts for Orlando, where he immediately improves them from a 50 win first round cannon fodder team, to a Finalist.

In the meantime, Pippen is now without BOTH Grant and Jordan, and he STILL carries the Bulls to a 34-31 record. Oh, and in their last ten games... 8-2. Jordan sees the opportunity to steal a ring, so he comes back and plays the last 17 games of the season, and is fully refreshed and the healthiest player in the playoffs. In fact, his playoff numbers are nearly identical to his '93 run, and would be considerably better than his '96 run. The result? A second round beatdown at the hands of GRANT's Magic. And to add salt to that wound...the Magic are swept by a 47-35 team in the Finals.

The bottom line? Jordan's IMPACT on the '95 Bulls was WORSE than Grant's impact on the '94 Bulls.

Ok, the Bulls ownership KNOWS that Jordan will never be capable of winning another ring without a super-star PF like Grant, so they go out and ADD Rodman. Think about that. Jordan basically replaces Grant on an injury-decimated 55-27 team, but can't get them as far...and then the Bulls ADD Rodman to that roster. No wonder they would run away from the rest of the very watered down league in their last three title runs.

In fact, MJ can shoot .455, .427, and even a ghastly .415 in his last three Finals, and with that overwhelming supporting cast...he STILL wins three more rings.


As for KAJ. He went 6-20, but needed Magic's FIVE. Shaq went 4-19, but needed Kobe to get past the Spurs in '01 and '02, and then Wade in '06. And, he was SWEPT SIX times in the post-season, and nearly EIGHT.

You can go right down the list. Hell, Hakeem went 2-18, and was BLOWN OUT in the FIRST ROUND ... EIGHT TIMES.

Russell won 11 titles, nine of them in the Wilt-era, and was either outplayed, or downright DESTROYED by Chamberlain in EVERY one of them. In fact, Wilt was a total of nine points away, by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points, from holding a 5-3 H2H edge over Russell.

Of course, we witnessed what happened when Wilt had a roster that was the EQUAL of Russell's, and HEALTHY, in '67. And he and his Sixers just carpet-bombed Russell and his eight-time defending and 60-21 Celtics, 4-1, and missed a sweep in game four by four points.

Rings are about TEAM success. And none other than John Wooden said it best. Had Russell and Wilt swapped rosters (and coaches), and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

So you can take your "6-6" and shove it up your ass. Jordan was 6-15, and needed his TEAMMATES to win those six.

It's over ladies and gentlemen.........IT'S OVER!!

[3ball]

looking back at it... it was a foul. but it shouldnt have been called due to it being the end of a playoff game and after the release


Why would the refs not call a legit foul on someone that already had a massive choke earlier in the series by refusing to enter the game on final possession of Game 3?.. Pippen's sullied the game of basketball with that decision.

Why would the refs cut that guy any breaks with the series on the line?

The 1994 ECSF was the best demonstration that Pippen didn't have a steady hand in the clutch.. And it was picture-perfect - without MJ, Pippen literally crumbled under the pressure.

But it was far from the first time - he admitted (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s) the pressure got to him in 1990 ECF Game 7, where his 2 points on 1-10 cost the Bulls the championship and a possible 4-peat.. In the Finals, the Pistons destroyed the Blazers in 5 easy games with big advantages in ORtg, but they needed 7 games and Pippen choke to beat Bulls (while scraping by with razor-thin advantage in ORtg).. The 1990 ecf WAS the championship.

[livinglegend]

Why would the refs not call a legit foul on someone that already had a massive choke earlier in the series by refusing to enter the game on final possession of Game 3?.. Pippen's sullied the game of basketball with that decision.

Why would the refs cut that guy any breaks with the series on the line?

The 1994 ECSF was the best demonstration that Pippen didn't have a steady hand in the clutch.. And it was picture-perfect - without MJ, Pippen literally crumbled under the pressure.

But it was far from the first time - he admitted (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s) the pressure got to him in 1990 ECF Game 7, where his 2 points on 1-10 cost the Bulls the championship and a possible 4-peat.. In the Finals, the Pistons destroyed the Blazers in 5 easy games with big advantages in ORtg, but they needed 7 games and Pippen choke to beat Bulls (while scraping by with razor-thin advantage in ORtg).. The 1990 ecf WAS the championship.


Today, with concern about defenders sliding under shooters and causing injuries, it gets called more often. That wasn't the case back then, and certainly not with a playoff outcome riding on it. Steve Kerr had been hit the same way several times that year, his first with the Bulls, and never was sent to the free-throw line.

"I went to the ref every time and they said, 'It doesn't matter, the shot was released," Kerr says. "Back then it was not called. And every time I asked the ref, I got the exact same explanation: Once you release the shot it doesn't matter."
it was clearly a bad call.

[3ball]

it was clearly a bad call.
It was a foul, regardless of people's opinion of whether the refs should've gone against the rulebook in that spot - and again, why would the refs not call a legit foul on someone that already had a massive choke earlier in the series by refusing to enter the game on final possession of Game 3?.. Pippen's sullied the game of basketball with that decision.

Why would the refs cut that guy any breaks with the series on the line?

The 1994 ECSF was the best demonstration that Pippen didn't have a steady hand in the clutch.. And it was picture-perfect - without MJ, Pippen literally crumbled under the pressure.

But it was far from the first time - he admitted (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s) the pressure got to him in 1990 ECF Game 7, where his 2 points on 1-10 cost the Bulls the championship and a possible 4-peat.. In the Finals, the Pistons destroyed the Blazers in 5 easy games with big advantages in ORtg, but they needed 7 games and Pippen choke to beat Bulls (while scraping by with razor-thin advantage in ORtg).. The 1990 ecf WAS the championship.

[livinglegend]

It was a foul, regardless of people's opinion of whether the refs should've gone against the rulebook in that spot - and again, why would the refs not call a legit foul on someone that already had a massive choke earlier in the series by refusing to enter the game on final possession of Game 3?.. Pippen's sullied the game of basketball with that decision.

Why would the refs cut that guy any breaks with the series on the line?

The 1994 ECSF was the best demonstration that Pippen didn't have a steady hand in the clutch.. And it was picture-perfect - without MJ, Pippen literally crumbled under the pressure.

But it was far from the first time - he admitted (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s) the pressure got to him in 1990 ECF Game 7, where his 2 points on 1-10 cost the Bulls the championship and a possible 4-peat.. In the Finals, the Pistons destroyed the Blazers in 5 easy games with big advantages in ORtg, but they needed 7 games and Pippen choke to beat Bulls (while scraping by with razor-thin advantage in ORtg).. The 1990 ecf WAS the championship.
:rolleyes:

Today, with concern about defenders sliding under shooters and causing injuries, it gets called more often. That wasn't the case back then, and certainly not with a playoff outcome riding on it. Steve Kerr had been hit the same way several times that year, his first with the Bulls, and never was sent to the free-throw line.

"I went to the ref every time and they said, 'It doesn't matter, the shot was released," Kerr says. "Back then it was not called. And every time I asked the ref, I got the exact same explanation: Once you release the shot it doesn't matter."
it was clearly a bad call.

[ClipperRevival]

Why would the refs not call a legit foul on someone that already had a massive choke earlier in the series by refusing to enter the game on final possession of Game 3?.. Pippen's sullied the game of basketball with that decision.

Why would the refs cut that guy any breaks with the series on the line?

The 1994 ECSF was the best demonstration that Pippen didn't have a steady hand in the clutch.. And it was picture-perfect - without MJ, Pippen literally crumbled under the pressure.

But it was far from the first time - he admitted (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s) the pressure got to him in 1990 ECF Game 7, where his 2 points on 1-10 cost the Bulls the championship and a possible 4-peat.. In the Finals, the Pistons destroyed the Blazers in 5 easy games with big advantages in ORtg, but they needed 7 games and Pippen choke to beat Bulls (while scraping by with razor-thin advantage in ORtg).. The 1990 ecf WAS the championship.

Pip's game 7 in 1990 has to be THE worst game 7 EVER for a star. 1-10 and 2 points in 42 minutes in his infamous migraine game. At least the guy was man enough to admit the pressure got to him.

Still think Detroit was the better team but if Pip had showed up for that game, at least it might've been more interesting.

[HenryGarfunkle]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

You want "failures?"

I love these ridiculous 6/6 arguments.

REALITY: Jordan went 6/15. Yes...6/15. Not only that, but he was such pure trash, that he played on LOSING teams FIVE teams in his career.

How about his rookie season? Barely helped the Bulls at all. They went from a 27 win team to a 38 win team. Wilt, Kareem, Robinson, Bird, and Magic all had FAR greater impacts.

And then he gets wiped out in the first round of the playoffs, and in a series in which he was BADLY outplayed by Sidney Mongrief. And in the clinching game three loss...6-16 from the field.

Hell, how about his '86 post-season? Everyone remembers his 63 point (achieved in double OT BTW) LOSS. How about the clinching game of that series (a blowout loss BTW)? 19 points on 8-18 shooting.

Furthermore, in his highest scoring season, he shot-jacked his team right out of the first round in a SWEEPING loss. Which included a clinching game three performance of 9-35 from the field. BTW, Magic would destroy that same Celtic team in the Finals.

Let's move to his '88 season. How did his team FINALLY get above .500? Not because of HIM. The Bulls added Pippen and Grant. He finally had a QUALITY supporting cast.

But, in the ECSF's, his numbers drop off the cliff from his regular season numbers (down from 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%...to 27.4 ppg on a .491.) And, as expected his team is annihilated by a Piston team that Magic would dominate in the Finals.

In '88-89...more of the same. Against the Pistons in the ECF's, and in a series tied 2-2...he up and QUITS on his team. Just mailed it in. Thanks to him and his feeble efforts, the Bulls are eliminated by the Bad Boys, 4-2. Oh, and as always, his numbers drop like a lead balloon against them. WAY down. From 32.5 ppg on a .538...to 29.7 on a .460.

In his 89-90 season, he now has a roster the EQUAL of the Pistons. In fact, Detroit barely edges Chicago by a 59 to 55 win margin. And it shows in their ECF H2H. The Pistons win the series, 4-3, but MJ's horrific game two performance of 20 points on 5-16 shooting, in a nine point loss, dooms the team. They are blown out in game seven.

OK, in '90-91 he FINALLY wins a title. Did he elevate his game to do so? Hell no. It is PIPPEN and GRANT who ELEVATE their's. And, of course, his Bulls beat two teams that are just shells from their 80's seasons...the Pistons and the Lakers. To be honest, the rest of the decade is exactly like the '91 season. Jordan now has, BY FAR, the best supporting casts for the ALL six of his rings.

How good were those rosters? Look no further than '94. Jordan suddenly retires, and the Bulls scramble to replace him...with PETE MYERS. Surely without MJ the Bulls must have folded their tents, right?

Hell no. They hardly miss a beat. They go from a 57-25 team that needed a Paxson shot to survive in the Finals...all the way down to a 55-27 team, that is cheated out of a ECSF's win, by a team that blows a 3-2 series lead in the Finals, and loses the last two games by margins of 2, and 4 points. Then think about this...Jordan's "replacement", the legendary PETE MYERS...averaged 6 ppg in that series.

Not only that, but Chicago's two best players miss a combined 22 games in that '94 season.. Had those two been reasonably healthy, and they would easily have won 60+ games. And with HCA, where they would go 5-0 BTW, likely a title...and all accomplished withOUT Jordan.

BUT, it then gets even worse for the Jordan legacy. Grant bolts for Orlando, where he immediately improves them from a 50 win first round cannon fodder team, to a Finalist.

In the meantime, Pippen is now without BOTH Grant and Jordan, and he STILL carries the Bulls to a 34-31 record. Oh, and in their last ten games... 8-2. Jordan sees the opportunity to steal a ring, so he comes back and plays the last 17 games of the season, and is fully refreshed and the healthiest player in the playoffs. In fact, his playoff numbers are nearly identical to his '93 run, and would be considerably better than his '96 run. The result? A second round beatdown at the hands of GRANT's Magic. And to add salt to that wound...the Magic are swept by a 47-35 team in the Finals.

The bottom line? Jordan's IMPACT on the '95 Bulls was WORSE than Grant's impact on the '94 Bulls.

Ok, the Bulls ownership KNOWS that Jordan will never be capable of winning another ring without a super-star PF like Grant, so they go out and ADD Rodman. Think about that. Jordan basically replaces Grant on an injury-decimated 55-27 team, but can't get them as far...and then the Bulls ADD Rodman to that roster. No wonder they would run away from the rest of the very watered down league in their last three title runs.

In fact, MJ can shoot .455, .427, and even a ghastly .415 in his last three Finals, and with that overwhelming supporting cast...he STILL wins three more rings.


As for KAJ. He went 6-20, but needed Magic's FIVE. Shaq went 4-19, but needed Kobe to get past the Spurs in '01 and '02, and then Wade in '06. And, he was SWEPT SIX times in the post-season, and nearly EIGHT.

You can go right down the list. Hell, Hakeem went 2-18, and was BLOWN OUT in the FIRST ROUND ... EIGHT TIMES.

Russell won 11 titles, nine of them in the Wilt-era, and was either outplayed, or downright DESTROYED by Chamberlain in EVERY one of them. In fact, Wilt was a total of nine points away, by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points, from holding a 5-3 H2H edge over Russell.

Of course, we witnessed what happened when Wilt had a roster that was the EQUAL of Russell's, and HEALTHY, in '67. And he and his Sixers just carpet-bombed Russell and his eight-time defending and 60-21 Celtics, 4-1, and missed a sweep in game four by four points.

Rings are about TEAM success. And none other than John Wooden said it best. Had Russell and Wilt swapped rosters (and coaches), and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

So you can take your "6-6" and shove it up your ass. Jordan was 6-15, and needed his TEAMMATES to win those six.
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/19h4q5aqocntdgif/original.gif

[3ball]

REALITY: Jordan went 6/15. Yes...6/15.


Other than Russell back in the sixties, 6/15 is the best championship frequency IN HISTORY dumbass

GOAT... :bowdown:

[ClipperRevival]

Other than Russell back in the sixties, 6/15 is the best championship frequency IN HISTORY dumbass

GOAT... :bowdown:

And if you don't count MJs Wizard days, that's 6/13, nearly 50%.

[AirBonner]

Other than Russell back in the sixties, 6/15 is the best championship frequency IN HISTORY dumbass

GOAT... :bowdown:
eh Horry was 7/16 nice try tho :lol

[HenryGarfunkle]

eh Horry was 7/16 nice try tho :lol
When it comes to all-time greats, Mikan was 5/7, and Cousy was 6/14

:dancin

[Wade's Rings]

Damn Laz,

I didn't know MJ was living that much in your head rent free. There is no point getting into an argument with you regarding this matter because you bring zero objevtivity to the table.

You say it's a team game but bash MJ for losing to a great Bucks team that won 58 games when MJ was a rookie and had no help. Ditto for the GOAT level Celtics and Pistons teams.

1968 and 1969 still haunting Ilt's legacy and it kills you. So you feel the need to bring MJ down to Ilt's level.

And let the stupid ass copy and paste continue....

Lazeriss is just filled with contradictions. Can't believe some people take him serious.

[Wade's Rings]

And if you don't count MJs Wizard days, that's 6/13, nearly 50%.

There was also the Season he had the broken foot. 6/12 in non Wizard and healthy years :bowdown:

[diamenz]

Jordan stans are the only stans who can't accept other people having a different opinion than them.
As soon as someone tries to explain their point of view, that person is agenda drive or delusional.
The ''truth'' (which doesn't exist when giving subjective opinions) is their opinion.

jordan stans are just as annoying as the anti jordanites. you're as annoying as 3ball.

[Mike Armstrong]

This is an interesting conspiracy theory.

[livinglegend]

eh Horry was 7/16 nice try tho :lol
:djparty

[LAZERUSS]

Other than Russell back in the sixties, 6/15 is the best championship frequency IN HISTORY dumbass

GOAT... :bowdown:

Sam Jones 10/12
Hondo 8/16

BTW, even Russell said that Jones was asked to take the final shot that would end the season if he missed SIX times, and he made all six.

Hondo? Won six titles with Russell, and then two more after Russell.

Both greater than MJ...and by a solid margin.

GOATS

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Duffy Pratt]

George Mikan 5/7 :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Magic 5/13

Robert Horry 7/16
Tom Heinsohn and KC Jones 8/9
Joe Loscutoff and Frank Ramsey 7/9

Do you ever say anything that is accurate?

[LAZERUSS]

This is an interesting conspiracy theory.


You tell me...

You have read the articles and posts on this game five. Virtually everyone, save for a paid-off ref who made the call, and a blind Hubie Brown, have claimed it was a blown call. Article-after-article... BLOWN CALL. Hell, we have another OFFICIAL who claims it was a BLOWN CALL, as well as the SHOOTER, himself, making that claim.


Then, fast forward to game six of the '98 Finals...when, right in front of the entire world, it was JORDAN who was involved in a BLOWN CALL. This time a NON-CALL.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/695201863/Ex-ref-agrees-with-Jazz-fans-Jordan-pushed-off.html?pg=all


Many Jazz fans have long thought Jordan should have been called for first brushing the defending Russell past him. "He pushed off," Russell said of his posterized moment.

Now Mathis says the same.

As background, the Post points out that this is an official who's been critical of NBA officiating since his retirement in 1991 and who was involved in the improper selling of first-class airline seats.

But Jazz fans will only care about Mathis' thoughts on Jordan's final shot that won his sixth and last championship.

The Post quoted Mathis as saying, in criticizing NBA officiating, "Remember when Jordan hit that winning shot? I'm going to give you exactly what the commentators said: 'What a great move by Michael.' Was that a great move or was that an offensive foul? There was no question it was a push-off. No buts about it. The only buts you can have is, 'Well, it was Michael Jordan.' That was a defining moment.

"The video tape would never lie," Mathis said. "Here's what could have happened. The referee makes the call and it's, 'No, no. How could he do that? It was Michael Jordan."'

How about Jordan's COACH, Phil Jackson?

http://www.si.com/nba/point-forward/2013/04/23/phil-jackson-michael-jordan-push-off-bryon-russell


But what say you, Jackson? How can you reconcile Paul's "Heisman" move with Jordan's infamous push-off? Both are fouls, or neither is a foul, right?

"As per MJ's shot in Game 6," Jackson reasoned. "That wasn't a push off. It was a helping hand to a broke down comrade. :-)"

That is, without a doubt, one of the greatest smiley faces in NBA history



Now, don't get me wrong, to me that was no more of a foul than the phantom foul called against Pippen, but it is interesting.

Two blown calls. One a whistle, and the other a non-call. One goes against a Jordan-less Bulls team and clearly cost them a shot at the title...and the other a non-call when it is Jordan, himself, committing the "brush."

[LAZERUSS]

Other than Russell back in the sixties, 6/15 is the best championship frequency IN HISTORY dumbass

GOAT... :bowdown:

Of course I just shelled this with other's like Hondo and Sam Jones (not to mention Russell)...

but how about this..

Let's remove Jordan from Pippen's career...

1994: 51-21
1995: 34-31, but this interesting. Pippen didn't have either MJ, nor Grant.
1999: 31-19
2000: 59-23
2001: 37-27
2002: 39-23
2003: 41-23
2004: 3-20

Playoffs 20-23


How about Jordan's record without Pippen?

1985: 38-44
1986: 9-9
1987: 40-42
2002: 30-30
2003: 37-45

Playoff record: 1-9

You could make a strong case that Jordan couldn't sniff a title without Pippen. Hell, he didn't even have a winning record in any season without Pippen. And his ONE playoff win was by two points. Oh, and he was simply awful in all three of his series clinching playoff games (all losses of course.)


And how about some of Jordan's other teammates without him.

Harper: 2 rings
Kerr: 2 rings
Rodman: 2 rings
Grant: 1 ring

Seems like these guys were winners withOUT Jordan.

[LAZERUSS]

KAJ has a case. Russell if you value winning. Ilt? Hell no. Not after 1968 and 1969.

Again, i am saying that no one had MJs consistent level of dominance. His normal season was a peak season for other greats and he maintained this level his entire Bull career. His worst years were amazing seasons for almost anyone else. His valleys simply were still amazing and his peaks were GOAT level.

You keep thinking that I am going to overlook your nonsense, don't you?

I have ripped your take here many times, but let's summarize Wilt's '68 and '69 "failures" shall we?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328006&postcount=13


It was deemed remarkable that they even got to the Division Finals vs. Boston with all the injuries. Luke Jackson was playing with a badly pulled hamstring. When Lakers star Magic pulled his hamstring in '89 Finals, he could not even play the final game at all & much of the third game. While the 1989 Lakers get excused due to injury, the '68 Sixers do not. Back in the old days they were expected to gut it out under worse playing conditions, as Jackson did when he played the entire 1966 season on a broken leg, casually shrugging it off as shin splints.

There were times during the NY series when the hobbled Sixers were getting killed on the boards, as Bellamy & Reed were feasting on the offensive glass. They played Games 4, 5, and 6 consecutively. No days off in between.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=16m20s



New York Times - Apr 18, 1968

But injuries have depleted the team that ended the Celtics' eight-year reign last season. Wally Jones, the jump-shooting Philadelphia guard with the game-breaking touch, is doubtful for Friday. He aggravated his right knee, first injured during the series with the New York Knickerbockers, early in the opening quarter and did not return.

Wilt Chamberlain, the 7-foot pillar of the 76ers, produced 20 points but was in obvious pain with an ailing right leg.




Williamson Daily News - Apr 10, 1968






DELAWARE COUNTY - April 13, 1968

Club Rated 'Most Courageous' By Hannum as Injuries Mount

PHILADELPHIA (AP) - The Philadelphia 76ers could be billed as the best touring troupe In basketball. All they need is a doctor to complete the cast.

Going into the fourth game Sunday of their National Basketball Association playoff series with the Boston Celtics, the 76ers are hurting from head to toe.

So what's new? Injuries have plagued the defending NBA champions since the opening of the season.

"Alex Hannum says this is the most courageous team he's ever coached," says Harvey Pollack, the 76ers' statistician. "The locker room looks like a hospital ward every time I walk in."

Pollack ticked off some of the cases, which read like a medical diary:

-Wilt Chamberlain (partial tear of the calf muscle in his right leg, a strain in his right thigh and an injured right toe):

-Wally Jones (injured knee cartilage):

-Luke Jackson (pulled hamstring muscle):

-Hal Greer (bursitus in his right knee):

-And, Billy Cunningham (broken right wrist).

"That's not mentioning (rookie) Jim Reid who had a knee operation after injuring it the first game of the season," said Pollack, "and Larry Costello," the veteran guard who tore an ankle tendon after one-third of the season was gone.

The most recent injury was to Chamberlain in Friday night's Eastern Division playoff contest with the Celtics. The dipper was given whirlpool treatments for the calf muscle tear, but Pollack wasn't sure how he'd respond.

The 76ers have nine men in uniform for the best-of-seven playoffs, which they lead, two games to one. But whether they'll have anybody left for the finals against the Western Division winner is anybody's guess.

The team's troubles multiplied in the Eastern Division semifinals against the New York Knickerbockers. Cunningham broke his wrist, knocking him out for the season, Jones and Jackson suffered their injuries and Chamberlain aggravated his perennial toe injury.

And when Boston thumped the 76ers in the opening game of their playoffs here last Friday, some predicted a quick knockout of the injury-riddled champs.

But Philadelphia whacked Boston two straight, including Thursday where an injury actually helped the 76ers cause, points out Pollack.

How so?

"Well, Chamberlain was hurt and he couldn't turn around to score-so he kept feeding Greer, and he scored 31," explained the statistician.


So here was Chamberlain, playing every minute of this series, and noticeably limping throughout, and with a roster, the core of which was just decimated by injuries...carrying that broken down rag-tag group to a game seven, four point loss...and doing so with a 22-25-7 series.


Ok, how about Wilt's '69 post-season? Look no further than his incompetent COACH...

https://books.google.com/books?id=9BaqPfGcI84C&pg=PA355&lpg=PA355&dq=butch+van+breda+kolff+had+chamberlain+playing+t he+high+post&source=bl&ots=rQxpX4Ys7l&sig=oosFtJ3aB-NUrdTlS-5xi8-eHyI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi70fWD0svKAhVDuYMKHSvWDRgQ6AEIQTAJ#v=on epage&q=butch%20van%20breda%20kolff%20had%20chamberlain% 20playing%20the%20high%20post&f=false


Chamberlain: "Butch wanted me to play the high post so Elgin could drive to the basket, but they got me for rebounding. Why pull a guy away from the basket when you want him to rebound?"

And this all-time classic from the same source...


Butch Van Breda Kolff: "Not having enough basketballs wasn't the problem at all for us. The trade changed our chemistry. Elgin's favorite move was the drive from the left wing and into the middle. Now, when he did that, he ran into Wilt, and Wilt's man. Wilt took that move away from Elgin. Imhoff loved to pick-and-roll with Elgin, but that wasn't something Wilt did very well. So we were able to throw the ball down low to Wilt and he'd score, but it was an awful offense to watch. When the ball stops moving, then guys don't rebound or play defense as well as they normally would.

So, instead of feeding the ball down low into the greatest scorer in NBA history, "the Butcher" preferred having West and Baylor take all the shots in the '69 Finals. West played brilliantly, of course, but Baylor was just choking on his own puke the entire series, especially in three of the losses. Oh, and VBK left Wilt on the bench in the last five minutes of a game seven, two point loss. He quit right after the game, knowing full well that he was about to be fired. He not only cost the city of LA their very first NBA title, but he ruined his career at the same time.

Of course, when Wilt finally had a great coach, in '72, he led them to a 69-13 record, and a dominating title, en route to a FMVP (all accomplished while "Mr. Clutch" couldn't hit a shot to save his life in the entire post-season, and was even worse in the Finals.)

[Wade's Rings]

@Lazeruss Jordan went 193-187 without Pippen in his Career.
'85: 38-44
'86: 9-9
'87: 40-42
'88: 3-0
'89: 4-5
1st 3-peat: 1-0
2nd 3-peat: 31-12
'02: 30-30
'03: 37-45

Also you never adress the Cavs being injured in the 1st round in '94.

[LAZERUSS]

@Lazeruss Jordan went 193-187 without Pippen in his Career.
'85: 38-44
'86: 9-9
'87: 40-42
'88: 3-0
'89: 4-5
1st 3-peat: 1-0
2nd 3-peat: 31-12
'02: 30-30
'03: 37-45

Also you never adress the Cavs being injured in the 1st round in '94.

Speaks volumes about MJ's teammates, doesn't it? Much like the '94 Bulls and without Jordan, right? The most STACKED rosters in the watered-down 90's.

As for the Cavs, why should I? They finished 47-35, and well behind Chicago's 55-27. And, were swept in the first round by the Bulls, 3-0.

At least if we are making assumptions, the Bulls getting robbed against a Knicks team that would blow a 3-2 series lead against the Rockets, and losing the last two games of that Finals by margins of 2, and 4 points...lends far more credence that the Bulls were ONE BLOWN CALL away from perhaps their 4th straight ring...and all accomplished withOUT Jordan.

[3ball]

George Mikan 5/7
Magic 5/13

Robert Horry 7/16
Tom Heinsohn and KC Jones 8/9
Joe Loscutoff and Frank Ramsey 7/9

Do you ever say anything that is accurate?


Jordan's championship frequency of 6/15 or 40% > Magic's 5/13 or 38%.. So I was accurate.

And obviously, when I said Jordan's championship frequency (40%) was the best other than Russell in the 60's, I was talking about guys who were the best players on their team.. Secondary or role players don't count... Otherwise, Derek Fisher > Lebron, since Fisher's 3/5 > 2/6

Mikan was the only example you gave that qualifies - so other than Russell and Mikan in the 50's/60's, Jordan has the best championship frequency of all-time - best in the modern era - fitting for the GOAT..
.

[livinglegend]

It's easy to be 6/15 when your team is a contender without you. FACT!

[3ball]

It's easy to be 6/15 when your team is a contender without you. FACT!
they weren't a contender... they were a 2nd round team.. FACT!

and they were a 2nd Round team whose best player had 2 massive chokes without his daddy MJ to protect him: game 3 when he refused to enter game on last possession and Game 5 when he foolishly fouled a 3-point shooter on the final possession.

it's fitting that Pippen crumbled under the pressure of being "the man" witout MJ... after all, MJ made Pippen

FACTS!

[livinglegend]

they weren't a contender... they were a 2nd round team.. FACT!

and they were a 2nd Round team whose best player had 2 massive chokes without his daddy MJ to protect him: game 3 when he refused to enter game on last possession and Game 5 when he foolishly fouled a 3-point shooter on the final possession.

it's fitting that Pippen crumbled under the pressure of being "the man" witout MJ... after all, MJ made Pippen

FACTS!

They were 1 bad call aways from basically winning the championship ----> contender.
Pippen made Jordan, not the other way around.
Wasn't Jordan 1-9 in the playoffs before Pippen?

[3ball]

They were 1 bad call aways from basically winning the championship ----> contender.
the "one play away" logic never works - the Bulls were 1 play away (the Kukoc miracle walk-off in Game 3) from being down 0-3 and being swept.

also, it wasn't a bad call.

it was a foul and the refs had no reason to break the rules for a choking fool that fouls a 3-point shooter on the final play..

This is especially true considering Pippen had already sullied the game of basketball for little kids everywhere by pouting and refusing to enter game for final possession of Game 3.

[livinglegend]

the "one play away" logic never works - the Bulls were 1 play away (the Kukoc miracle walk-off in Game 3) from being down 0-3 and being swept.

also, it wasn't a bad call.

it was a foul and the refs had no reason to break the rules for a choking fool that fouls a 3-point shooter on the final play..

This is especially true considering Pippen had already sullied the game of basketball for little kids everywhere by pouting and refusing to enter game for final possession of Game 3.

It was a bad call. Most of the refs/players agreed.
Your biased opinion don't mean anything.
And you didn't answer the question, was jordan 1-9 in the playoffs before pippen?

[3ball]

It was a bad call. Most of the refs/players agreed.
And you didn't answer the question, was jordan 1-9 in the playoffs before pippen?


It was a foul - anyone can look at the tape and see - those same players went back and realized it was a foul, but in the moment they were biased, understandably..

and 1-9 with no allstars > missing the playoffs twice WITH an all-star teammate

(an all-star center no less, with 17/9 and 2.1 blocks)

[livinglegend]

It was a foul - anyone can look at the tape and see - those same players went back and realized it was a foul, but in the moment they were biased, understandably..

and 1-9 with no allstars > missing the playoffs twice WITH an all-star teammate

(an all-star center no less, with 17/9 and 2.1 blocks)

It was a bad call. Most refs/players/coaches agreed.
1-9 <<<<< anything else

[dubeta]

It was a bad call. Most refs/players/coaches agreed.
1-9 <<<<< anything else

:lebronamazed:

[3ball]

1-9 <<<<< anything else



1-9 while IN the playoffs with no all-stars > missing the playoffs twice WITH an all-star


http://45.media.tumblr.com/2c20d5e4422cd9b0fe67fdba42dde93d/tumblr_nequ00GLR51u3o7azo1_400.gif

[LAZERUSS]

It was a foul - anyone can look at the tape and see - those same players went back and realized it was a foul, but in the moment they were biased, understandably..

and 1-9 with no allstars > missing the playoffs twice WITH an all-star teammate

(an all-star center no less, with 17/9 and 2.1 blocks)

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Jordan joined a 27 win team, and didn't raise them a bit.

Your "all star" center "led" a team to a 17-65 record, and was basically never worth a shit his entire career.

Lebron showed up and immediately doubled their win total. And within a few years Lebron dragged that pathetic POS roster, the worst ever given a GOAT since Chamberlain, to their first ever Finals, and within a couple of years after that, to a team record of 66-16, and then in his last season with those clowns, to a 61-21 record.

He left...and boom! Dropped off the cliff to a 19-63 record...or about exactly the same record they had before he arrived.

Lebron's impact as a rookie was FAR greater than MJ's.

As a side-note, Allstar selections are almost meaningless. Your boy Bosh was a ten time AS, and only once was he even a second teamer. And, as has been well documented, he has been a worthless career loser without Lebron, and basically contributed very little to the 4 straight Finals that Lebron carried the Heat to.

And, as we all know...Horace Grant had a FAR greater IMPACT, at EVERY stop in his entire career, than Chris "Can't Do" Bosh ever had on his two teams. IMPACT...something Grant had, and POS Bosh never had, nor ever will.


And Wilt had an all-star in 1963, by the name of Tom Meschery. The guy played 64 games, and averaged 16 ppg, 9 rpg, and shot .425. At the beginning of that same season, the Celtics acquired HOFer Clyde Lovellette, who had averaged 20 ppg just the season before. Guess what, Lovellette was Boston's SEVENTH best player in 1963 (on a team with NINE HOFers.) Meschery would have rotted at the end of the Celtic's bench in 1963. Meschery was no more of an all-star than you are today.

[LAZERUSS]

It was a foul - anyone can look at the tape and see - those same players went back and realized it was a foul, but in the moment they were biased, understandably..

and 1-9 with no allstars > missing the playoffs twice WITH an all-star teammate

(an all-star center no less, with 17/9 and 2.1 blocks)

If Pippen's "brush" AFTER the shot was a foul, it was no more of a foul than what Jordan committed when he definitely pushed off. And of course, MJ was also the master of carrying and palming, and while it has always been a violation, it seemed to become a forgotten one once MJ came into the league.

In any case...one non-call, and one blatant blown call, all because on one, the player was Jordan, while on the other, he was not.

[guy]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Jordan joined a 27 win team, and didn't raise them a bit.

Your "all star" center "led" a team to a 17-65 record, and was basically never worth a shit his entire career.

Lebron showed up and immediately doubled their win total. And within a few years Lebron dragged that pathetic POS roster, the worst ever given a GOAT since Chamberlain, to their first ever Finals, and within a couple of years after that, to a team record of 66-16, and then in his last season with those clowns, to a 61-21 record.

He left...and boom! Dropped off the cliff to a 19-63 record...or about exactly the same record they had before he arrived.

Lebron's impact as a rookie was FAR greater than MJ's.

As a side-note, Allstar selections are almost meaningless. Your boy Bosh was a ten time AS, and only once was he even a second teamer. And, as has been well documented, he has been a worthless career loser without Lebron, and basically contributed very little to the 4 straight Finals that Lebron carried the Heat to.

And, as we all know...Horace Grant had a FAR greater IMPACT, at EVERY stop in his entire career, than Chris "Can't Do" Bosh ever had on his two teams. IMPACT...something Grant had, and POS Bosh never had, nor ever will.


And Wilt had an all-star in 1963, by the name of Tom Meschery. The guy played 64 games, and averaged 16 ppg, 9 rpg, and shot .425. At the beginning of that same season, the Celtics acquired HOFer Clyde Lovellette, who had averaged 20 ppg just the season before. Guess what, Lovellette was Boston's SEVENTH best player in 1963 (on a team with NINE HOFers.) Meschery would have rotted at the end of the Celtic's bench in 1963. Meschery was no more of an all-star than you are today.

2/6

[LAZERUSS]

2/6

1/9

[guy]

1/9

2011 Finals

[LAZERUSS]

2011 Finals

9-35

[guy]

9-35

2007 Finals

[Angel Face]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Jordan joined a 27 win team, and didn't raise them a bit.

Your "all star" center "led" a team to a 17-65 record, and was basically never worth a shit his entire career.

Lebron showed up and immediately doubled their win total. And within a few years Lebron dragged that pathetic POS roster, the worst ever given a GOAT since Chamberlain, to their first ever Finals, and within a couple of years after that, to a team record of 66-16, and then in his last season with those clowns, to a 61-21 record.

He left...and boom! Dropped off the cliff to a 19-63 record...or about exactly the same record they had before he arrived.

Lebron's impact as a rookie was FAR greater than MJ's.

As a side-note, Allstar selections are almost meaningless. Your boy Bosh was a ten time AS, and only once was he even a second teamer. And, as has been well documented, he has been a worthless career loser without Lebron, and basically contributed very little to the 4 straight Finals that Lebron carried the Heat to.

And, as we all know...Horace Grant had a FAR greater IMPACT, at EVERY stop in his entire career, than Chris "Can't Do" Bosh ever had on his two teams. IMPACT...something Grant had, and POS Bosh never had, nor ever will.


And Wilt had an all-star in 1963, by the name of Tom Meschery. The guy played 64 games, and averaged 16 ppg, 9 rpg, and shot .425. At the beginning of that same season, the Celtics acquired HOFer Clyde Lovellette, who had averaged 20 ppg just the season before. Guess what, Lovellette was Boston's SEVENTH best player in 1963 (on a team with NINE HOFers.) Meschery would have rotted at the end of the Celtic's bench in 1963. Meschery was no more of an all-star than you are today.

30 - 22 - 18

:sleeping

[sportjames23]

2007 Finals




http://45.media.tumblr.com/2c20d5e4422cd9b0fe67fdba42dde93d/tumblr_nequ00GLR51u3o7azo1_400.gif

[dubeta]

http://45.media.tumblr.com/2c20d5e4422cd9b0fe67fdba42dde93d/tumblr_nequ00GLR51u3o7azo1_400.gif

1-9

[livinglegend]

1-9
http://45.media.tumblr.com/2c20d5e4422cd9b0fe67fdba42dde93d/tumblr_nequ00GLR51u3o7azo1_400.gif

[Akhenaten]

1-9

2008 ecsf

[riseagainst]

it wasn't a foul. Bogus call. But let's be real, OP didn't make the thread for the bogus call, but rather to find a way to sh1t on MJ.

6/6 >>>> 2/6

MJ > Lebron > Wilt (for you LAZ, you stupid piece of sh1t).

[ClipperRevival]

The Big Dipper.

1) 2/6
2) 30/22/18
3) 0-4 against Russell in game 7s
3) 1-8 against Russell in the playoffs
4) Never led his team in scoring when he won a title
5) Epic choke jobs in 1968 and 1969


:applause:

[Wade's Rings]

Speaks volumes about MJ's teammates, doesn't it? Much like the '94 Bulls and without Jordan, right? The most STACKED rosters in the watered-down 90's.

As for the Cavs, why should I? They finished 47-35, and well behind Chicago's 55-27. And, were swept in the first round by the Bulls, 3-0.

At least if we are making assumptions, the Bulls getting robbed against a Knicks team that would blow a 3-2 series lead against the Rockets, and losing the last two games of that Finals by margins of 2, and 4 points...lends far more credence that the Bulls were ONE BLOWN CALL away from perhaps their 4th straight ring...and all accomplished withOUT Jordan.

So when MJ wins without Pippen his squads are stacked :oldlol:

The Cavs went 3-1 vs the Bulls in the Regular Season and weren't healthy in the Playoffs. If the Cavs were healthy the Bulls don't get past the 1st Round. Also, before you point to injuries Pippen & Grant played every Game vs the Cavs that year.

[97 bulls]

So when MJ wins without Pippen his squads are stacked :oldlol:

The Cavs went 3-1 vs the Bulls in the Regular Season and weren't healthy in the Playoffs. If the Cavs were healthy the Bulls don't get past the 1st Round. Also, before you point to injuries Pippen & Grant played every Game vs the Cavs that year.
The Cavs weren't healthy for most of the games they played vs the Bulls either. I think Daughtery and Nance only played two games. And the Bulls weren't totally healthy as well. Kukoc and Willamette missed two games if I remember correct.

[Wade's Rings]

The Cavs weren't healthy for most of the games they played vs the Bulls either. I think Daughtery and Nance only played two games. And the Bulls weren't totally healthy as well. Kukoc and Willamette missed two games if I remember correct.

Kukoc played in 3 of those Games, Cavs still won those 2 of them.

[97 bulls]

Kukoc played in 3 of those Games, Cavs still won those 2 of them.
Point is you shouldn't use injuries as an excuse. It's a part of the game.