Besides the 1994 Bulls

[AirBonner]

Is there any team in history that could lose it's star player and still be a title contender?

[WayOfWade]

Nah man, if they lose Jimmy Butler it'd be game over

[AirBonner]

Nah man, if they lose Jimmy Butler it'd be game over
You know what I meant :lol

[WayOfWade]

You know what I meant :lol
Yeah I do, still though I never considered the Bulls contenders when Rose went down. A very good team no doubt, but I never gave them a shot at the title.
I'd say the 94' Bulls were still contenders without Jordan, more so than the current Bulls with Rose anyhow

[Smoke117]

2000 Lakers & 2011 Heat would be contenders imo, ditto the '82-'86 Lakers

The 2000 Lakers without Shaq are still title contenders...? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[97 bulls]

2000 Lakers & 2011 Heat would be contenders imo, ditto the '82-'86 Lakers
No way. I mean, we saw how these team played without their best player. And they actually had a chance to get a decent replacement for their best player unlike the Bulls.

[SouBeachTalents]

The 2000 Lakers without Shaq are still title contenders...? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Lol, for whatever reason I was thinking replacing Kobe with that one :lol. Without Shaq definitely not

[kshutts1]

Current Warriors and Cavs and MAYBE Spurs.

Take off Curry and GSW are no longer a historically great team, but they're still great enough to be in the championship conversation. Ditto for Lebron and the Cavs. Kawhi on the Spurs, though, I'm not entirely sure. But I trust in Pop.

[diamenz]

now that the cavs have a decent coach, if you took lebron out they'd still be contenders and probably even champions.

[Milbuck]

Current Warriors and Cavs and MAYBE Spurs.

Take off Curry and GSW are no longer a historically great team, but they're still great enough to be in the championship conversation. Ditto for Lebron and the Cavs. Kawhi on the Spurs, though, I'm not entirely sure. But I trust in Pop.
Lmfao in what world would a Curry-less Warriors team be even remotely close to the championship conversation? They would get absolutely slaughtered in a series against San Antonio, Cleveland or OKC without Curry, it would not be close. Without Curry the Warriors would be a middle of the pack playoff team at best.

And I don't even know what to say with the Cavs mention. You're just...wrong.

[Crystallas]

It's a testament to how good a player is, and how much he helps develop his teammates to get them to another level.

[AirBonner]

Current Warriors and Cavs and MAYBE Spurs.

Take off Curry and GSW are no longer a historically great team, but they're still great enough to be in the championship conversation. Ditto for Lebron and the Cavs. Kawhi on the Spurs, though, I'm not entirely sure. But I trust in Pop.
LOL. You think the Cav's without LeBron have a shot at a title? :biggums:

[Micku]

Is there any team in history that could lose it's star player and still be a title contender?.

The Knicks went to the finals in 99 without Patrick Ewing. They lost him in the middle of the playoffs.

76ers without Moses Malone in 83 could've still been a contender. They were in the finals the year prior without that much change.

Denver without AI became a title contender in 09.

The Lakers without Elign Baylor was still a contender (pre Wilt too).

I'm sure there is one more.

[kshutts1]

I think people in this thread are either ignoring, or downplaying, the effect that Love and Kyrie can have on a game. Without Lebron, their impact and skills and effect will flourish more than with him.

Keep in mind, if the "bar" being set is the '94 Bulls, we just need them to win 50+ games and make the second round. Yes, all the teams I mentioned could, and would.

[ClipperRevival]

Huge difference between a 2nd round exit team and a team that 6 peated with one #23. But I wouldn't expect the OP to know the difference. There has never been a situation where the star of a 3 peat defending team retired. All other situations like Shaq leaving LA or Lebron leaving Miami, etc were different because those teams weren't DEFENDING 3 peat teams. Lakers got bounced by SAS in 2003 and destroyed by Detroit in 2004. So they were a team in decline. Ditto for Miami. Destroyed by Spurs in 2014 and a declining Wade.

Pip and Grant were entering their primes in 1994 (age 28 for both) and they had added a very good player in Kukoc along with Kerr and Longley. So it wasn't the same team. Not to mention, the 1993 Bulls probably were a bit fatigued from the 1992 Summer Olympics so their win total decreased a bit more than it should. All this plays a factor when you are already 2 time defending champs (at the time of Olympics).

Not to mention, having the unity, chemistry and confidence of a 3 peat defending team along with GOAT level coach.

[dhsilv]

now that the cavs have a decent coach, if you took lebron out they'd still be contenders and probably even champions.

So going from great to shit in coaching is a good thing, lol!

[Wade's Rings]

No way. I mean, we saw how these team played without their best player. And they actually had a chance to get a decent replacement for their best player unlike the Bulls.

The 2011 Heat without Bron are pretty easily contenders.

[97 bulls]

The 2011 Heat without Bron are pretty easily contenders.
Well never know. But 2015 is a pretty good indication

[97 bulls]

I think people in this thread are either ignoring, or downplaying, the effect that Love and Kyrie can have on a game. Without Lebron, their impact and skills and effect will flourish more than with him.

Keep in mind, if the "bar" being set is the '94 Bulls, we just need them to win 50+ games and make the second round. Yes, all the teams I mentioned could, and would.
I think the dynamic of the question is being missed. Consider a team under comparable circumstances. The most important aspect of the Bulls situation in 94 was that they lost Michael Jordan. And didn't replace him.

[1987_Lakers]

Is there any team in history that could lose it's star player and still be a title contender?

Just shows you how weak the NBA was at the time.

1994 Rockets
1994 Knicks
1994 Pacers
1994 Bulls

All title contenders who had pretty underwhelming talent. The current Warriors would man handle all of these teams.

[SouBeachTalents]

Well never know. But 2015 is a pretty good indication

Not really, 2011 Wade was still easily a top 5 player in the league. He was taking absolutely horrendous teams to the playoffs in '09 & '10. You add Bosh to that team they are at worst a top 4 seed in the East

[ClipperRevival]

Just shows you how weak the NBA was at the time.

1994 Rockets
1994 Knicks
1994 Pacers
1994 Bulls

All title contenders who had pretty underwhelming talent. The current Warriors would man handle all of these teams.

Don't know if you're trolling or being serious but you didn't mention the Sonics (63 wins), Suns (56 wins), Spurs (55 wins) and Jazz (53 wins). All these teams were perennial contenders during this era and were consistently top ranked to near the top in wins. All these teams were led by all time great type players.

[La Frescobaldi]

Don't know if you're trolling or being serious but you didn't mention the Sonics (63 wins), Suns (56 wins), Spurs (55 wins) and Jazz (53 wins). All these teams were perennial contenders during this era and were consistently top ranked to near the top in wins. All these teams were led by all time great type players.



Just shows you how weak the NBA was at the time.

1994 Rockets
1994 Knicks
1994 Pacers
1994 Bulls
1994 Jazz
1994 Sonics
1994 Suns
1994 Spurs

All title contenders who had pretty underwhelming talent. The current Warriors would man handle all of these teams.

There you go. That looking better now?

[kennethgriffin]

2011 heat easly win with lebron being replaced by any decent backup

[Wade's Rings]

Well never know. But 2015 is a pretty good indication

:biggums: :biggums:

2015 Wade & Bosh aren't 2011 Wade & Bosh. Bosh also didn't have a Season ending blood clots in 2011.

This is why I don't take you seriously.:facepalm

[3ball]

The '93 Bulls allowed 98.9 ppg and had a defensive rating of 106.1

The '94 Bulls allowed 94.9 ppg and had a defenisve rating of 102.7

That means that the '93 Bulls were a better defensive team.


^^^ This is junior high-level competence - who cares if the Bulls allowed less points in 1994 with lower DRtg, IF THE REST OF THE LEAGUE DID TOO (league ppg declined from 105.3 to 101.5 - and DRtg declined from 108.0 to 106.3).

Something caused the entire LEAGUE'S ppg and drtg to decline - if Jordan had been there in 1994, the Bulls ppg and drtg would've still declined commensurately with the rest of the league. That's why the Bulls ranking relative to the rest of the league is what matters.

So again - the Bulls' defensive ranking in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.

[La Frescobaldi]

^^^ This is junior high-level competence - who cares if the Bulls allowed less points in 1994 with lower DRtg, IF THE REST OF THE LEAGUE DID TOO (league ppg declined from 105.3 to 101.5 - and DRtg declined from 108.0 to 106.3).

Something caused the entire LEAGUE'S ppg and drtg to decline - if Jordan had been there in 1994, the Bulls ppg and drtg would've still declined commensurately with the rest of the league. That's why the Bulls ranking relative to the rest of the league is what matters.

So again - the Bulls' defensive ranking in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.
Chicago's defense was better in 1994 than '93.
I don't need to use stats, like you do, because I watched basketball and anybody could see it.

[3ball]

Chicago's defense was better in 1994 than '93.
I don't need to use stats, like you do, because I watched basketball and anybody could see it.


Anyone could see the 1994 Bulls were playing much harder in the regular season than the previous year - anyone could see that the 1993 Bulls were waiting until the playoffs to turn it on..

And anyone could see that the Bulls' defensive capability wasn't better without Jordan - that's obviously ludicrous... But you guys are so biased at this point, you're willing to say or believe things that are completely ridiculous and detached from reality.

Here's the statistical facts - despite playing much harder, the Bulls' defensive ranking in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994..

[97 bulls]

:biggums: :biggums:

2015 Wade & Bosh aren't 2011 Wade & Bosh. Bosh also didn't have a Season ending blood clots in 2011.

This is why I don't take you seriously.:facepalm
The Heat were playing like garbage even before Bosh went down. Come on. And let's not forgst, they got Dragic, and Deng. Oh and Hassan Whiteside.

[97 bulls]

Anyone could see the 1994 Bulls were playing much harder in the regular season than the previous year - anyone could see that the 1993 Bulls were waiting until the playoffs to turn it on..

And anyone could see that the Bulls' defensive capability wasn't better without Jordan - that's obviously ludicrous... But you guys are so biased at this point, you're willing to say or believe things that are completely ridiculous and detached from reality.

Here's the statistical facts - despite playing much harder, the Bulls' defensive ranking in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994..
Do you really believe the Bulls had the best offense ALL-TIME???? And as far as their defense, as ed on your assesment, how impactful could Jordan have been defensively if the Bulls didn't miss a beat statistically?

[Micku]

The Heat were playing like garbage even before Bosh went down. Come on. And let's not forgst, they got Dragic, and Deng. Oh and Hassan Whiteside.

He was talking about 11 Wade and Bosh. So, obviously things would be different. Wade prior to the big 3 brought the team to the playoffs. Bosh would've helped out a lot. But that's a different team, different players, and etc. It wouldn't be the same.

Post 14 Heat does show the impact that LBJ left tho. While the Heat was dealing with a ton of injuries and some of the role players left, it still show LBJ impact cuz they sucked.

[Gileraracer]

So much disrespect to the greatest era in the NBA

[3ball]

Do you really believe the Bulls had the best offense ALL-TIME?


Their ORtg's during the 1st three-peat show they had one of the best offenses ever..

In 1991, the Bulls had the #2 ORtg of all time - 115.5 - which is right behind the 1987 Lakers 115.6.. But the Bulls had the #1 ORtg over any 3-year period from 1991-1993 (115.5, 114.6, 112.9).





And as far as their defense, as your assesment, how impactful could Jordan have been defensively if the Bulls didn't miss a beat statistically?


In 1994, the Bulls' lack of statistical change on defense relative to the league shouldn't make you think that Jordan didn't improve the Bulls capacity on defense - it should make you scratch your head to find PLAUSIBLE reasons for their unchanged status relative to the league.

You wouldn't have to look that far for good reasons - the 1993 Bulls were half-assing the regular season and waiting for the playoffs before turning it on, which they did by beating two teams with superior records (60+ win Knicks and Suns)... Otoh, the 1994 Bulls couldn't afford to half-ass it and played extremely hard the entire season.

But despite exerting far more effort, the impact of Jordan's absence was obvious because their defensive ranking (6th) was barely any better relative to the league than 1993 (7th) and essentially unchanged compared to 1992/1991 (4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due almost entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.

[Showtime80']

1994 was probably the WEAKEST year in the NBA since 1979, no Magic, Bird or Jordan! The main contenders were lead by aging second tier 80's stars like Ewing, Olajuwon, Stockton, Malone, out of shape again Barkley along with soft and chocking 90's stars like Robinson, Miller, Kemp and Payton! Teams were becoming easier to stop as well with almost everybody in the league going with the one/two stars surrounded by role players model, hell the Rockets beat the Knicks with only ONE ALL STAR in Olajuwon and the Knicks got to the Finals with John Friggin' Starks as their second option for God's sake!

Perfect timing for Pip and Phil Jackson to make a decent run at the conference finals playing defensive oriented slow down basketball! People forget they got eliminated in the EASTERN SEMIS after winning the title just one year earlier. Who cares about a meaningless 55 regular season win, they lost 2 before the Finals!

[Nash]

2011 heat easly win with lebron being replaced by any decent backup
lebron was the reason they made it to the finals in the first place.

[Mike Armstrong]

Losing in the 2nd round means the 94 Bulls were just pretenders. Were the Clippers contenders last year? If so, your definition of contender is very loose, and the answer to the original question is "Yes, there are many teams that can contend after losing their star player."

[La Frescobaldi]

1994 was probably the WEAKEST year in the NBA since 1979, no Magic, Bird or Jordan! The main contenders were lead by aging second tier 80's stars like Ewing, Olajuwon, Stockton, Malone, out of shape again Barkley along with soft and chocking 90's stars like Robinson, Miller, Kemp and Payton! Teams were becoming easier to stop as well with almost everybody in the league going with the one/two stars surrounded by role players model, hell the Rockets beat the Knicks with only ONE ALL STAR in Olajuwon and the Knicks got to the Finals with John Friggin' Starks as their second option for God's sake!

Perfect timing for Pip and Phil Jackson to make a decent run at the conference finals playing defensive oriented slow down basketball! People forget they got eliminated in the EASTERN SEMIS after winning the title just one year earlier. Who cares about a meaningless 55 regular season win, they lost 2 before the Finals!

"1994 was probably the WEAKEST year in the NBA since 1979, no Magic, Bird or Jordan!"
90s was lot worse than that actually
No Isiah
No Moses
No Dr. J
No Kareem
No Worthy
No Moncrief
etc. etc.
entire teams of greats had left the league. the nba turns over at times, there are weak seasons here and there, sometimes 2 or 3 when old stars retire and new stars emerge and take over.

But Stern in his INFINITE, ENDLESS STUPIDITY put the worst expansion teamsof all time into the league at the same time the league turned over.

[Gileraracer]

1994 was probably the WEAKEST year in the NBA since 1979, no Magic, Bird or Jordan! The main contenders were lead by aging second tier 80's stars like Ewing, Olajuwon, Stockton, Malone, out of shape again Barkley along with soft and chocking 90's stars like Robinson, Miller, Kemp and Payton! Teams were becoming easier to stop as well with almost everybody in the league going with the one/two stars surrounded by role players model, hell the Rockets beat the Knicks with only ONE ALL STAR in Olajuwon and the Knicks got to the Finals with John Friggin' Starks as their second option for God's sake!

Perfect timing for Pip and Phil Jackson to make a decent run at the conference finals playing defensive oriented slow down basketball! People forget they got eliminated in the EASTERN SEMIS after winning the title just one year earlier. Who cares about a meaningless 55 regular season win, they lost 2 before the Finals!

:biggums: :biggums:

[Showtime80']

One of the big problems the 90's had was the new generation coming in didn't have the winning impact everybody expected they would. Guys like Shaq, Penny, Glen Robinson, Grant Hill, Iverson, Chris Webber, Wallace, Stackhouse, Joe Smith, LJ, MOurning, Kidd, Mashburn, Jackson, Mutombo, Kemp, Payton etc... spent most of the decade on subpar teams and/or getting their CLOCKS cleaned routinely by Jordan and the aging second tier of 80's stars in Olajuwon, Ewing, Barkley, Stockton, Malone, Drexler.

Those 90's guys came in the league with WAYYY TOO MUCH MONEY, selfish attitudes along with a hyperexpanded NBA (6 teams in 6 years) that was become more and more watered down!

The greatest feat Michael Jordan did in his career was keeping the NBA afloat from the mid to late 90's when the quality of the game was steadily going down the crapper which became painfully evident in the years that followed his retirement from 1999 onward when the game went OFF A CLIFF!

[Showtime80']

What exactly is so off in that bolded part Gileraracer?

Check out the numbers for those guys before and after 1994 and tell me they weren't already starting the downside of their careers during that period.

The watering down of the league and the underwhelming generation of players coming to the league in the 90's HELPED A LOT in the careers of Ewing, Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Olajuwon, Drexler from 1994 onward! Hell the Jazz posted their best win totals in the Malone/Stockton era during the 97 and 98 seasons with some of the weakest teams they ever had and also entering their mid 30's!

Mid to late 90's NBA was definitely a WEAK PERIOD!

[Wade's Rings]

The Heat were playing like garbage even before Bosh went down. Come on. And let's not forgst, they got Dragic, and Deng. Oh and Hassan Whiteside.

Again, 2011 Wade & Bosh aren't 2015 Wade & Bosh why do you compare them like they're the same players? You think Prime Wade & Bosh aren't contenders without Bron? Wade carried absolute shit squads to the Playoffs the 2 years before and you add Bosh and they aren't contenders because 2015 Wade & Bosh missed the Playoffs. :facepalm

You're just listing names, you didn't even watch Miami last year. Dragic came after All-Star Break and he had to adjust to a completely different system. Whiteside didn't play starters minutes until after the All-Star Break and even then he missed Games due to injury/suspension. Deng didn't play like an All-Star at all last year.

[livinglegend]

no