One season, in their prime, all out... who comes out on top? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

LAZERUSS

02-02-2016, 05:24 PM

Not really. He would score 50 points with 25 rebounds but disappear when it matters most. The guy lacked that killer instinct. That was on full display in game 6 and 7 of 1968 and 1969 and game 7 of 1970.

We can eliminate Jordan, as well. He would give 37 ppg in his highest scoring season, but then go 9-35 in the clinching game three game first round blowout loss. Or he would QUIT in a critical game five. Or, he would let his teammates carry him to a title in game six of the '96 Finals. Hell, without STACKED rosters...he will give you a 1-9 playoff record, and won't get you past the first round.

Kareem? In his greatest season, he will get outplayed in the WCF's by a 35 year old Wilt. Or he will get outplayed in a game seven by a Cowens, and in a blowout loss on his home floor. Or, he will call in sick in a potential clinching game six, and let the GOAT winner carry the team to a title. Hell, he will give you a 4 point game on 2-7 shooting in 29 minutes in a game seven of the Finals (and again, let the GOAT winner carry the team to a title.)

Bird? Well, the odds of him being healthy in a critical playoff series was relatively nil. And the difference between him and Chamberlain was, that when they were injured, Bird wasn't worth a shit. Wilt? He would play every minute of a seven game series with an injury that rendered Reed a statue, and STILL give you a 22-25-7 series.

Kobe? As long as he is not playing in the Finals, he will be great.

Shaq? SWEEP-A-PHOBIA. Man had a horrible habit of getting swept in the playoffs. BTW, his career playoff record against Greg Ostertag? 1-8.

Hakeem? :roll: :roll: :roll: If you just need to get into the First Round, and then get blown out...he is your best bet. He won't get you past that, though.

Russell? As long as he has by far-and-away the best rosters, he will win titles. Give him a roster the equal of Wilt's, and face Chamberlain in a playoff series...well, he and his team will get carpet-bombed. Hell, he could barely beat Wilt with a massive edge in talent, and was brutalized by Wilt in every post-season H2H.

Doesn't leave much, does it?

feyki

02-02-2016, 05:29 PM

67 Wilt .

Marchesk

02-02-2016, 05:31 PM

Actually, I had Shaq in mind for this question. He could have done amazing things with all the ability he had. If only he had the work ethic.

I didn't mean who you had in mind, I meant that type of question best fits Wilt. Wilt's case as the best ever is his individual achievements. Russell is winning. Kareem is accolades and longevity. Jordan is a combination, but his finals performances really help.

As for Shaq, he could have done more, but he was never the rebounder or shot blocker that Wilt was. I think Wilt was the more complete player. He successfully took on different roles over his career, including a Bill Russell like role on the Lakers. And Wilt kept himself in shape. Wilt was a better defender than Shaq.

3ball

02-02-2016, 05:39 PM

I didn't mean who you had in mind, I meant that type of question best fits Wilt. Wilt's case as the best ever is his individual achievements. Russell is winning. Kareem is accolades and longevity. Jordan is a combination, but his finals performances really help.

As for Shaq, he could have done more, but he was never the rebounder or shot blocker that Wilt was. I think Wilt was the more complete player. He successfully took on different roles over his career, including a Bill Russell like role on the Lakers. And Wilt kept himself in shape. Wilt was a better defender than Shaq.
this

3ball

02-02-2016, 05:39 PM

.
I'll go with WILT, easily.. Remember, we're only talking about individual performance and dominance, and presumably stats.

That has to be Wilt... Then MJ... And I laugh when I hear people say Shaq - we now have data that shows old MJ (from 1997 and 1998) had a higher proportion of his team's points, and FAR higher points + assists than 2000 Shaq:

...................Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor

.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th

JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <---- these are links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)

....................Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor

.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th

JORDAN 1997... 57.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 54.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 53.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

SHAQ 2000....... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 59.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)

So how could Shaq possibly be ahead of PRIME Jordan?... It's impossible.. And who cares about Shaq's rebounds - I'd rather have higher points, and far higher points + assists, especially considering Shaq's rebounds weren't that good for an all-time center anyway.

Btw, old Jordan's true shooting in 1997 RS and 1998 PO were equivalent to 2000 Shaq's, while his ORtg was greater.
.

FKAri

02-02-2016, 08:48 PM

sportjames23

02-02-2016, 09:20 PM

If all the greats had one summer to prepare to go all out for one single season during their primes, who would come out on top?

Let's just say that this would be individually the best, not who would win the championship since teams can't be fair.

The only answer is Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

And **** you in advance to dubeta and his alts

dubeta

02-02-2016, 09:23 PM

Tell me a player who killed their father?

The only answer is Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

https://media.giphy.com/media/U1XhGr8CWqvVC/giphy-facebook_s.jpg

Andrei89

02-02-2016, 09:24 PM

Not really. He would score 50 points with 25 rebounds but disappear when it matters most. The guy lacked that killer instinct. That was on full display in game 6 and 7 of 1968 and 1969 and game 7 of 1970.

You are crazy if you think Wilt in today's game would score 50 and grab 25 boards.

And, anybody who does not choose prime Shaq is out of their damn minds.

Milbuck

02-02-2016, 09:25 PM

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ClipperRevival

02-02-2016, 10:00 PM

Shaq didn't have a killer instinct either. There is no essential metric. Talent can overcome anything.

The mind controls the body. Talent only gets you so far, you have to want it. MJ and Russell didn't win 6 and 11 rings by accident. They had the "it" factor. That inner desire to beat you at any cost and the willingnes to dig down deep and get the W. Not everyone has that mentality. You can't fake it. Yeah, Shaq was a jokester and didn't maximize his talents like an MJ/Kobe but when he turned it on, he was GOAT level.

CavaliersFTW

02-02-2016, 10:03 PM

Not really. He would score 50 points with 25 rebounds but disappear when it matters most. The guy lacked that killer instinct. That was on full display in game 6 and 7 of 1968 and 1969 and game 7 of 1970.
Michael Jordan's "killer instinct" on full display in the 1980's and in the '00's, and in the mid 90's failing to win or even make playoff after playoff appearance and QUITTING the NBA :roll:

You're just a sucker for simple narratives in propaganda.

Bill Russell was the winner Michael Jordan never was.

And Wilt Chamberlain was the most dominant figure to ever play basketball - which Michael Jordan never was.

ClipperRevival

02-02-2016, 10:04 PM

CavaliersFTW

02-02-2016, 10:04 PM

67 Wilt .

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eJhr4-Fotm0/Vl_IcB7eCgI/AAAAAAAAHXY/cz6PdKePmio/s1280-Ic42/Wilt1967.jpg

GOAT individual season - insane dominance, QUAD double's in back to back playoff series including the FINALS against none other than Russell and Thurmond! :applause:

Marchesk

02-02-2016, 10:05 PM

You are crazy if you think Wilt in today's game would score 50 and grab 25 boards.

No, but what would his numbers look like on the 76ers?

What if Wilt today could lead the league in scoring, rebounding and shot blocking while being efficient? Say 31/17/3 with 5 block on 58% and playing 38 minutes?

jongib369

02-02-2016, 10:06 PM

Any names with an * next to it is adjusted for assists that led to a 3 per game.

PRF= Points+points from assists.

None of the 'totals include FGA or FG%

*SHAQ 00 PRF- 38.11 FG% .574 (21.1 FGA)
Blocks- 3
Steals-0.5
Rebounds- 13.6
Fouled-10.4
Free Throws made- 5.5

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1= 71.11
Total 2=60.71
Total 3=55.21

*Jordan 97 PRF-39.24-- FG%.486 (23.1 FGA)
Blocks- 0.5
Steals-1.7
Rebounds-5.9
Fouled-7
Free Throws made-5.9

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.
Total 1=60.24
Total 2=53.24
Total 3=47.34

Jordan 89 PRF- 48.5-- FG% .538 (24.0 FGA)
Blocks- 0.8
Steals-2.9
Rebounds-8
Fouled-9.8
Free Throws made-8.3

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=78.3
Total 2=68.5
Total 3=60.2

Wilt 67 PRF- 41.5-- FG% .683 (14.2 FGA)
Blocks- NA
Steals-NA
Rebounds-24.2
Fouled-10.8
Free Throws made-4.8

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=81.3
Total 2=70.5
Total 3=65.7

Wilts totals if he maxed out at Denis Rodmans rebounds in 97 16.1/Dennis max 18.7

Total 1=73.2/75.8
Total 2= 62.4/65
Total 3= 57.6/60.2

*LeBron 10 PRF-49.6 FG% .503 (20.1 FGA)
Blocks- 1
Steals-1.6
Rebounds- 7.3
Free throws attempted-10.2
Free Throws made- 7.8

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1= 77.5
Total 2=67.3
Total 3= 59.5

*Curry 16 per 36 PRF-48.2 FG% .506 (19.3 FGA)
Blocks- 0.2
Steals-2.3
Rebounds- 5.6
Free throws attempted-5.9
Free Throws made- 5.4

**Per 36**
(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data. None of the 'totals include FGA or FG%)
Total 1=67.6
Total 2=61.7
Total 3= 56.3

Wilt 62 PRF-55.2 FG% .506 (39.5 FGA)
Blocks- NA
Steals-NA
Rebounds- 25.7
Free throws attempted-17.0
Free Throws made- 10.4

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1= 108.3
Total 2=91.3
Total 3= 80.9

Wilts totals if he maxed out at Denis Rodmans rebounds in 97 16.1/Dennis max 18.7

9.6/7

Total 1= 98.7/101.3
Total 2= 81.7/84.3
Total 3= 71.3/73.9

Ridiculous

:lol

ClipperRevival

02-02-2016, 10:08 PM

Michael Jordan's "killer instinct" on full display in the 1980's and in the '00's, and in the mid 90's failing to win or even make playoff after playoff appearance and QUITTING the NBA :roll:

You're just a sucker for simple narratives in propaganda.

Bill Russell was the winner Michael Jordan never was.

And Wilt Chamberlain was the most dominant figure to ever play basketball - which Michael Jordan never was.

:oldlol: Russell was such a winner because of Ilt's choking. Ilt should've had 2 more rings at the expense of Russell. And to make it even more worse, Ilt choked in Russell's last 2 seasons in the league, when he was the freaken head coach to boot and on his last legs. You can't make this stuff up. Don't take out your playoff failures out on MJ. MJ always won when he was expected to win. Can't say the same for "The Big Dipper."

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-02-2016, 10:09 PM

Shaq in 2000

Jordan only wins if this were his peak, ie. 1990-1993

BTW, "higher proportion" of a teams' production means nothing. Tracy Mcgrady's was probably at an ALL TIME high in 2003, but the dude was never better than either Wilt, Shaq or Jordan obviously. Quit posting this goofy stat.

jongib369

02-02-2016, 10:11 PM

You are crazy if you think Wilt in today's game would score 50 and grab 25 boards.

And, anybody who does not choose prime Shaq is out of their damn minds.
Coach gives him 40 attempts per game, what does he put up? Give hima couple other okay options, guys like Rip, Hondo, or Allen who are constantly moving.

Then How many rebounds would he get? Denis Rodmans rebounds in 97 16.1/Dennis max 18.7. Kevin Love 15.2

CavaliersFTW

02-02-2016, 10:12 PM

:oldlol: Russell was such a winner because of Ilt's choking. Ilt should've had 2 more rings at the expense of Russell. And to make it even more worse, Ilt choked in Russell's last 2 seasons in the league, when he was the freaken head coach to boot and on his last legs. You can't make this stuff up. Don't take out your playoff failures out on MJ. MJ always won when he was expected to win. Can't say the same for "The Big Dipper."
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eJhr4-Fotm0/Vl_IcB7eCgI/AAAAAAAAHXY/cz6PdKePmio/s0-Ic42/Wilt1967.jpg
Started to read your post than got caught up reading stats of the most dominant season ever - holy cow! :eek:

dubeta

02-02-2016, 10:13 PM

Started to read your post than got caught up reading stats of the most dominant season ever - holy cow! :eek:

What are those stats converted to today's pace at 40 mins a game?

Don't need to calculate, I'll give you a hint, around 14 points 12 rebounds

ClipperRevival

02-02-2016, 10:14 PM

CavaliersFTW

02-02-2016, 10:17 PM

What are those stats converted to today's pace at 40 mins a game?

Don't need to calculate, I'll give you a hint, around 14 points 12 rebounds
Pace has nothing to do with Willt's dominance, give Wilt whatever number of shots you choose:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DLIqzOftdSU/VqfOPXNzRzI/AAAAAAAAHiI/U-XU65D5ibY/s0-Ic42/Offensive%252520Impact%252520Wilt%252520Kareem%252 520Shaq.jpg

Result: Most dominant offense EVER.

Paired with GOAT tier defense:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j5q0XjUAHc

G0ATbe

02-02-2016, 10:19 PM

I'm gonna go with the guy that made outscoring an entire team by himself look easy, as well as scoring 81.

tmacattack33

02-02-2016, 10:19 PM

Shaq would probably train harder in the off-season for this ALL OUT year. 2001 Shaq with a little less fat is what we'd get. I'd take that over anyone.

Other than players like that who probably never went truly 100% in the off-season, and would probably do it if you told them that they had to retire early after the upcoming season, this list would just be the same as your all-time peak list.

jongib369

02-02-2016, 10:21 PM

My only problem with Ilt fans is they concede nothing. I can concede that he is a top 5 GOAT, maybe GOAT peak and just a force the league had never seen. But you Ilt fans keep bringing up excuses for 1968 and 1969. Admit that he sort of disappeared when it mattered most. It's just the truth. Still doesn't take away from his legacy. But when guys like Laz deflect all blame away from him and blame everyone else, it gives Ilt fans a bad look. Just be objective. Like most objective fans know that Bron laid an egg in 2011. But he bounced back and learned from it. But 2011 happened. Admit that 1968 and 1969 happened and move on.
They don't concede because you keep screaming 2+2=potato

Season by season list the HOF players Wilt played with VS Russell. list their age, health(any injuries and amount of games played), and their performances too. In fact do it for every starting player, and bold the HOF/Allstar players.

Show the coaches record for each season as well, along with their career record with, or without Wilt.

jongib369

02-02-2016, 10:21 PM

What are those stats converted to today's pace at 40 mins a game?

Don't need to calculate, I'll give you a hint, around 14 points 12 rebounds
How many attempts per game at most do you think he could get, as the number 1 option?

Marchesk

02-02-2016, 10:22 PM

Admit that 1968 and 1969 happened and move on.

Okay, it happened. I have Jordan #1, personally.

Marchesk

02-02-2016, 10:24 PM

Don't need to calculate, I'll give you a hint, around 14 points 12 rebounds

He averaged over 1 point per minute a game during his 50 point season, and a bit over .5 boards.

LAZERUSS

02-02-2016, 10:25 PM

My only problem with Ilt fans is they concede nothing. I can concede that he is a top 5 GOAT, maybe GOAT peak and just a force the league had never seen. But you Ilt fans keep bringing up excuses for 1968 and 1969. Admit that he sort of disappeared when it mattered most. It's just the truth. Still doesn't take away from his legacy. But when guys like Laz deflect all blame away from him and blame everyone else, it gives Ilt fans a bad look. Just be objective. Like most objective fans know that Bron laid an egg in 2011. But he bounced back and learned from it. But 2011 happened. Admit that 1968 and 1969 happened and move on.

And as long as you continue to post this garbage, I will continue to respond...

Chamberlain played every minute of the seven game EDF's in 1968, with a roster that was just decimated by injuries, and he, himself, nursing multiple injuries, and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING throughout that series...

Thanks to PHILA BTW...

[QUOTE]DELAWARE COUNTY - April 4, 1968

[B]There they are

jongib369

02-02-2016, 10:25 PM

ClipperRevival

02-02-2016, 10:27 PM

They don't concede because you keep screaming 2+2=potato

Season by season list the HOF players Wilt played with VS Russell. list their age, health(any injuries and amount of games played), and their performances too. In fact do it for every starting player, and bold the HOF/Allstar players.

Show the coaches record for each season as well, along with their career record with, or without Wilt.

Your kidding right? 1969 is by far his worst playoff performance ever. He had the far superior team and that team was supposed to DESTROY Russell's aging Celtics. They were considered a super team. He had all the advantages. Superior team and HCA. His team is up 3-2 and this GOAT player lets his team choke it away, losing game 7 at home.

Ditto for 1968. Wilt said he thought that team was the 2nd best team he ever played on besides the 1967 76ers, even over the 1972 Lakers. His team was up 3-1 and lost 3 straight, again game 7 at home. Touched the ball 2 times in the 2nd half of game 7. Where was the drive to do more? If you are a GOAT level talent, can't you impose your will?

Which is it? Was he that good or did he need help? When he wins, Wilt fans praise him. When he loses, they blame everyone else.

ClipperRevival

02-02-2016, 10:29 PM

:facepalm

See what I mean guys? Laz once again pasting the same stuff to excuse his failures. Jesus Christ this guy is dense.

LAZERUSS

02-02-2016, 10:32 PM

Continued...

It was deemed remarkable that they even got to the Division Finals vs. Boston with all the injuries. Luke Jackson was playing with a badly pulled hamstring. When Lakers star Magic pulled his hamstring in '89 Finals, he could not even play the final game at all & much of the third game. While the 1989 Lakers get excused due to injury, the '68 Sixers do not. Back in the old days they were expected to gut it out under worse playing conditions, as Jackson did when he played the entire 1966 season on a broken leg, casually shrugging it off as shin splints.

There were times during the NY series when the hobbled Sixers were getting killed on the boards, as Bellamy & Reed were feasting on the offensive glass. They played Games 4, 5, and 6 consecutively. No days off in between.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=16m20s

New York Times - Apr 18, 1968

But injuries have depleted the team that ended the Celtics' eight-year reign last season. Wally Jones, the jump-shooting Philadelphia guard with the game-breaking touch, is doubtful for Friday. He aggravated his right knee, first injured during the series with the New York Knickerbockers, early in the opening quarter and did not return.

Wilt Chamberlain, the 7-foot pillar of the 76ers, produced 20 points but was in obvious pain with an ailing right leg.

Williamson Daily News - Apr 10, 1968

DELAWARE COUNTY - April 13, 1968

Club Rated 'Most Courageous' By Hannum as Injuries Mount

PHILADELPHIA (AP) - The Philadelphia 76ers could be billed as the best touring troupe In basketball. All they need is a doctor to complete the cast.

Going into the fourth game Sunday of their National Basketball Association playoff series with the Boston Celtics, the 76ers are hurting from head to toe.

So what's new? Injuries have plagued the defending NBA champions since the opening of the season.

"Alex Hannum says this is the most courageous team he's ever coached," says Harvey Pollack, the 76ers' statistician. "The locker room looks like a hospital ward every time I walk in."

Pollack ticked off some of the cases, which read like a medical diary:

-Wilt Chamberlain (partial tear of the calf muscle in his right leg, a strain in his right thigh and an injured right toe):

-Wally Jones (injured knee cartilage):

-Luke Jackson (pulled hamstring muscle):

-Hal Greer (bursitus in his right knee):

-And, Billy Cunningham (broken right wrist).

"That's not mentioning (rookie) Jim Reid who had a knee operation after injuring it the first game of the season," said Pollack, "and Larry Costello," the veteran guard who tore an ankle tendon after one-third of the season was gone.

The most recent injury was to Chamberlain in Friday night's Eastern Division playoff contest with the Celtics. The dipper was given whirlpool treatments for the calf muscle tear, but Pollack wasn't sure how he'd respond.

The 76ers have nine men in uniform for the best-of-seven playoffs, which they lead, two games to one. But whether they'll have anybody left for the finals against the Western Division winner is anybody's guess.

The team's troubles multiplied in the Eastern Division semifinals against the New York Knickerbockers. Cunningham broke his wrist, knocking him out for the season, Jones and Jackson suffered their injuries and Chamberlain aggravated his perennial toe injury.

And when Boston thumped the 76ers in the opening game of their playoffs here last Friday, some predicted a quick knockout of the injury-riddled champs.

But Philadelphia whacked Boston two straight, including Thursday where an injury actually helped the 76ers cause, points out Pollack.

How so?

"Well, Chamberlain was hurt and he couldn't turn around to score-so he kept feeding Greer, and he scored 31," explained the statistician.

Now, ClippersClown blames WILT for losing that series. Sure, why not? After all, he only averaged 22 ppg, 25 rpg, and 7 apg in that series. Of course, I'm sure ClippsClown has a long list of greats that have accomplished that in a seven game series...and that's before taking his injuries into account.

The REALITY was, had Chamberlain and his Sixers been as healthy as their '67 team, they would have easily repeated their destruction of Russell and his Celtics in the '67 EDF's.

That was Wilt "the choker."

Now, on to his 1969 Finals...

raprap

02-02-2016, 10:36 PM

Shaq
MJ

LAZERUSS

02-02-2016, 10:38 PM

Ah the 1969 Finals...

I'll save myself some time here, since I just posted this a couple of weeks ago, and as a response to Clippers Clown...

Ok, my friend, let's do some real research on the fabled '69 Lakers and their Finals, shall we...

First of all...Butch "the Butcher" Van Breda Kolff. Just so you know, he was vehemently against the trade that brought Chamberlain to the Lakers to begin with. From day one he hated Wilt.

Now, when a team brings in the GOAT low-post center of all-time, you would them to utilize him in that fashion, wouldn't you?

https://books.google.com/books?id=9BaqPfGcI84C&pg=PA355&lpg=PA355&dq=butch+van+breda+kolff+had+chamberlain+playing+t he+high+post&source=bl&ots=rQxpX4Ys7l&sig=oosFtJ3aB-NUrdTlS-5xi8-eHyI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi70fWD0svKAhVDuYMKHSvWDRgQ6AEIQTAJ#v=on epage&q=butch%20van%20breda%20kolff%20had%20chamberlain% 20playing%20the%20high%20post&f=false

Quote:
Chamberlain: "Butch wanted me to play the high post so Elgin could drive to the basket, but they got me for rebounding. Why pull a guy away from the basket when you want him to rebound?"

And here is one of my personal all-time favorites from Van Breda Kolff...

Quote:
Butch Van Breda Kolff: "Not having enough basketballs wasn't the problem at all for us. The trade changed our chemistry. Elgin's favorite move was the drive from the left wing and into the middle. Now, when he did that, he ran into Wilt, and Wilt's man. Wilt took that move away from Elgin. Imhoff loved to pick-and-roll with Elgin, but that wasn't something Wilt did very well. So we were able to throw the ball down low to Wilt and he'd score, but it was an awful offense to watch. When the ball stops moving, then guys don't rebound or play defense as well as they normally would."

So, VBK decided that instead of getting the ball down low and into Chamberlain, where he would SCORE, that he preferred Baylor to roam the baseline and get his offense. And, of course, Wilt complied. The result? Baylor had a good regular season, averaging 24.8 ppg (West was at 25.9 ppg, and Wilt at 20.5 ppg BTW), but he was completely exposed in the playoff as the shell that he was, and in fact, had the WORST FG% on the entire team in the post-season (.385.)

Now, let's get down to the Finals. Where a COACH LOST the series.

As we already know, VBK had basically SHACKLED Wilt in that post-season. It was bad enough that during the regular season, Wilt had averaged a career-low 13.6 FGAs per game (Baylor was at 21.5 FGA per game, and West at 19.0 BTW), but then, in the post-season, Wilt hardly the saw the ball at all. His FGAs dropped down to 9.8 (West's went to 23.5 and Baylor 15.4.) And in the Finals... Wilt was at 8.3, Baylor at 17.3, and West at a staggering 28.0!

Obviously, VBK was rolling his dice with West and Baylor, and Wilt was an afterthought. And that is why I always find it comical that WILT gets blamed for that series loss. Obviously Baylor would be, by far-and-away, the biggest culprit...but also, why not West? After all, he was putting up "Wilt-type" shot attempts, and his team ultimately lost. When Wilt's teams lost with Chamberlain shooting the ball...he was a selfish ball-hog. When he didn't shoot...well, he was a coward and choked. Why not blame West as well?

How about the matchups?

The Lakers were favored coming into that series, but the reality was...they had an edge at TWO positions.and with TWO players. West and Wilt. Baylor was on paper only. In fact, it turned out that he was a complete LIABILITY. From players 3-9, it was all Boston. And while Havlicek and West were not normally assigned to defend one another, the fact was, that match-up was REALLY close. As was the Wilt-Russell duels. However, the reason that that battle was close, was again, because VBK's offense did NOT include Wilt.

BTW, the 4th quarter of game seven is available on Youtube. Just watch it. Immediately after Russell picked up his 5th PF, the Lakers went right into Wilt, and he went right around the "matador" defense of Russell for an easy lay-in. It would basically be the last time he touched the ball down low the rest of the game (obviously he missed the last five minutes, as well.) BTW, as a side-note...while you are watching that footage...look for Russell. You will seldom find him. He was essentially hiding the entire quarter...and as the Lakers stormed back from a 17 point deficit with 10 minutes left, down to a one point game with two minutes left.

Ok, now let's get into some game specifics. First of all, and as I have said before, this was Chamberlain's worst post-season series of his entire career. He played poorly in three games...albeit, he still averaged 22.7 rpg in those three contests. In one of them, game two, his team still eked out a 118-112 win (and by god, Baylor miraculously played well in that game, too.)

So, the first poor game didn't hurt the Lakers at all. And they jumped out to a 2-0 series lead. Wilt actually played well in game three, scoring 16 points, on 6-11 shooting, with 26 rebounds (and he easily outplayed Russell, who had scored 11 pts, on 5-12 shooting, with 18 rebounds. HOWEVER, BOTH West and Baylor were terrible. West scored 24 points, but on 9-24 shooting, while Baylor couldn't have played much worse (wait, he will) with 11 points on 4-18 from the field.

Oh, and how well did West and Baylor play in the 4th quarter of that game three, six point loss?

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1969.htm

Quote:
L.A. fails to rally in the 4th in large part due to Jerry West & Elgin Baylor shooting a combined 1-14 from the floor in the period.

So, had WEST and BAYLOR even played a decent game, the Lakers would have been up 3-0, and essentially the series was over. Instead, it was now 2-1.

Continued...

CavaliersFTW

02-02-2016, 10:38 PM

:facepalm

See what I mean guys? Laz once again pasting the same stuff to excuse his failures. Jesus Christ this guy is dense.
What was Ordan's playoff performance like in 1994? 1995? How about 2001? 2002? What kind of Finals performer was he in the 1980's? Oh yeah, a finals virgin.

Your hero is only a hero when you turn a blind eye to his blunders. Sound familiar? You came up with this crap no one else.

Ordan was a habitual failure when your 2+2 = potato formula for evaluating Wilt is applied. ordan also has a losing record of Championships, he failed to win championships more seasons than he won. Oh - cant use a J because he never had one. Isn't that cool? That's what you like to do, come up with gimmicks like a 12 year old.

jongib369

02-02-2016, 10:39 PM

Continued...

Now, ClippersClown blames WILT for losing that series. Sure, why not? After all, he only averaged 22 ppg, 25 rpg, and 7 apg in that series. Of course, I'm sure ClippsClown has a long list of greats that have accomplished that in a seven game series...and that's before taking his injuries into account.

The REALITY was, had Chamberlain and his Sixers been as healthy as their '67 team, they would have easily repeated their destruction of Russell and his Celtics in the '67 EDF's.

That was Wilt "the choker."

Now, on to his 1969 Finals...
He's willfully ignorant IMO. He'd say the same about us, but given the information you're posting, or others I'm not sure how he comes to those conclusions.

Bill Simmons is that you?

LAZERUSS

02-02-2016, 10:40 PM

Continued...

Ok, now on to game four, and the pivotal PLAY that ultimately cost the Lakers a title in 1969 (albeit, there were several other's, as well.)

https://books.google.com/books?id=b7bB1FXutcMC&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=johnny+egan+had+the+ball+stolen+by+emmette+brya nt&source=bl&ots=Kkcu4JS0-j&sig=MdVUhvva2_PEnjIea_737nMAeYg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWoemgkMvKAhXKJiYKHbhtBLAQ6AEIHDAA#v=on epage&q=johnny%20egan%20had%20the%20ball%20stolen%20by%2 0emmette%20bryant&f=false

Quote:
The Celtics proved that again in Game 4 as Sam Jones hit a dramatic off-balance, game-winning shot with a second to play to lift his team to a wild 89-88 victory over the Lakers. "I thought Sam's shot was going to miss when he put it up, "Russell confessed, "I said to myself__'Oh damn!" But the ball looked like it had fingers and just crawled in. To Lakers coach Bill van Breda Kolff, the basket represented a nightmare come true. "I've lost tough one's before," he sighed, "but never any tougher." Elgin Baylor concurred: "It was a lucky shot. But [Jones] made it. And that's what counts. He slipped, went off-balance and still put the ball in the hoop."

An improbable series of events set the stage for the victory shot, starting with a nondescript out-of-bounds play iniated by Baylor under the Los Angeles basket with 14 seconds remaining. Protecting an 88-87 Lakers lead, Baylor passed the ball to Johnny Egan, who promptly had it stolen away from him by Boston's Emmette Bryant. "He slapped me right on the arm and knocked the ball loose," Egan said. "It was the key play in the game and [the officials] didn't call it." Bryant immediately flicked a pass to Jones, who launched a 15-foot jumper from the right of the key. The ball bounced off the front of the rim, but the Celtics retained possession, and called time-out with 7 seconds to play. While contemplating his options in the huddle, player-coach Russell was successfully lobbied by Havlicek and Siegfried to use a play straight out of their old Ohio State playbook. "There's just enough time for it," said Havlicek, who had introduced the play to his teammates at an earlier practice session during the Philadelphia series. The play call for the use of a triple screen to give the intended shooter, in this case Jones, a clean look at the basket. "We walked through it one time in the huddle, just to make sure everyone would be sure of what he had to do," said Jones, who had 16 points and 4 rebounds. When play resumed Bryant inbounded the ball to Havlicek, who then "broke" to form a defensive barrier along-side Bailey Howell and Don Nelson near the free-throw line. While this was taking place, Jones wheeled around the screen on the right to receive the anticipated pass from Havlicek. After momentarily stumbling on the parquet floor, Jones tossed up a prayer that hit both the front and back rims before finally dropping.

"I didn't think the ball was going in," said Jones. "In fact. I didn't think it was going in the right general direction and I didn't think it was going to even make the front rim. I slipped as I tried to plant my foot."

ONE DAMNED LUCKY PLAY won the series.

But, think about this. Why didn't VBK call a time-out after the made Celtic free-throw had cut the lead to 88-87? Furthermore, what was Baylor thinking inbounding the ball to EGAN? Where was WEST?

There was plenty of blame to go around, including Wilt. Chamberlain had scored 8 points, on 3-8 from the field, and 2-11 from the line (in a one point loss), BUT, he had STILL managed to outplay Russell, who was even worse. Russell was ghastly. He scored 6 points, on 2-12 from the field, and 2-4 from the line. On top of that, Chamberlain outrebounded him,m 31-29. Of course, it was BAYLOR who REALLY blew chunks in that game. He scored FIVE points, on...get this... 2-14 from the field. BUT, it gets even worse...he also went an unfathomable, 1-5 from the line...in a ONE POINT loss!

That one stupid play, (and subsequent miracle shot) cost the Lakers a 4-1 series romp. Because, in game five, back in LA, the Lakers, behind Wilt finally just beating the stuffing out of Russell (outscoring him 13-7, and outrebounding him by a massive 31-13 margin)...pounded Boston, 117-104.

ONE PLAY.

Continued...

ClipperRevival

02-02-2016, 10:41 PM

What was Ordan's playoff performance like in 1994? 1995? How about 2001? 2002?

Your hero is only a hero when you turn a blind eye to his blunders. Sound familiar? You came up with this crap no one else.

Ordan was a habitual failure when your 2+2 = potato formula for evaluating Wilt is applied. Jordan also has a losing record of Championships, he failed to win championships more seasons than he won. Oh - cant use a J because he never had one. Isn't that cool? That's what you like to do, come up with gimmicks like a 12 year old.

Ordan didn't play in 1994.
In 1995, he played 17 regular season games and clearly didn't have his chemistry and legs under him. He proved this was the case by 3 peating the next 3 years. Same reason why I don't hold 1970 against Wilt because he missed most the season too.

And you are REALLY going to hold a 38-40 year old MJ accountable? Lol.

CavaliersFTW

02-02-2016, 10:44 PM

Ordan quit basketball in 1994.
In 1995, he played 17 regular season games and clearly didn't have his chemistry and legs under him. He proved this was the case by 3 peating the next 3 years. Same reason why I don't hold 1970 against Wilt because he missed most the season too.

And you are REALLY going to hold a 38-40 year old MJ accountable? Lol.
Fixed.

Your hero literally quit entire seasons in his prime. He literally quit on the entire 1994 season, playoffs and Finals included.

1995 - all I hear are excuses

LAZERUSS

02-02-2016, 10:44 PM

Finally...

Chamberlain VERY SELDOM played a truly poor game in his entire post-season career. Hell, in his 160 playoff games, he had at least 20 rebounds in 124 of them. And a 20-20 game was a BAD game for a PRIME Wilt.

Furthermore, in their 49 post-season H2H games, Russell almost never outplayed Chamberlain.

However, both occurred in game six of the '69 Finals. With Wilt playing poorly, the Celtics built a 17 point lead going into the 4th quarter, and coasted to a 99-90 win. Russell outscored Wilt, 9-8, outshot Wilt, 3-8 to 1-5 (and 3-3 to 6-10 from the line), and outrebounded Wilt, 19-18. Obviously, the difference wasn't much, but had Chamberlain just put up even a near normal game, the series would have been over.

Instead, the series was now tied, 3-3. Still, game seven was back in LA, where the Lakers would be favored. Their owner was so confident that his Lakers would win, that he had a ton of balloons hanging from the ceiling, the USC marching band in attendance, and champagne on ice in the locker room. None of which sat well with Russell and his proud Celtics.

Boston immediately jumped out a 24-12 lead, and slowly took control of the game. Late in the third period, the margin was up to 15, and even worse, Wilt picked up his 5th personal foul. However, he remained in the game, and in fact, was a defensive factor for the rest of his time in the contest.

Early in the 4th quarter, it was now Russell who picked up HIS 5th personal foul, but, unlike Wilt, who was still contesting shots, Russell completely went into hiding. Right after that foul, the Lakers inbounded the ball into a low-post Wilt, and he went right around the "statue" Russell for an easy lay-in. However, and mainly do the the incompetence of Van Breda Kolff, Chamberlain never got another low-post touch again.

With ten minutes remaining, Boston had extended their lead to 17 points. It was then that the Lakers started mounting a furious rally. Aided by Sam Jones fouling out shortly thereafter, LA stormed back and cut the margin to 11 with over six minutes remaining. BUT, Chamberlain, while grabbing a rebound, came down awkwardedly, and injured his knee. He still threw an outlet that led to another Laker basket, and the lead was now only nine points. He stayed hobbled at the defensive end, and then grabbed yet another rebound (BTW, those two rebounds, on successive possessions, equaled Russell's entire total in his 4th quarter), and his outlet led to a play in which West was fouled. Wilt HAD to come out. The Lakers called time-out, and VBK sent in Mel Counts to replace Chamberlain. West subsequently hit both FTs, and the lead was now down to seven, with about five-and-a-half minutes remaining.

After the game, there were rumors that were circulating that Wilt had "feigned" his injury. However, even Van Breda Kolff, who absolutely despised Wilt, defended Wilt's injury. Furthermore, if Wilt were somehow trying to protect his image, why wouldn't he have "faked" it late in the 3rd quarter, and after his 5th foul, and with his team trailing by 15 points? And why would he pull himself out of the game, when the Lakers had chopped a full 10 points off of a 17 point margin, and in a little over four minutes, and with over five minutes left in the game?

In any case, the Celtics were running on fumes, and were slowly dying. LA continued to cut into the deficit, and with a little over two minutes left, the margin was now 103-102. That is when Wilt, now feeling well enough to play, asked VBK to go back in. Van Breda Kolff refused, and that decision basically cost not only the city of Los Angeles their very first title, but it basically ruined VBK's coaching career.

Boston extended the lead back to 105-102, and then Wilt's "replacement' mel Counts, missed a shot. Boston would get the ball to Don Nelson at the free-throw line, where he put up a shot that clanked off the back of the rim...went straight up, and came straight down into the basket, for an insurmountable 107-102 lead. Counts threw an errant pass with under a minute remaining, as well, to seal the loss... 108-106. BTW, Counts shot 4-13 from the floor in that game.

Was game seven WILT's fault? In his 43 minutes, he scored 18 points, on 7-8 from the floor (and admittedly, 4-13 from the line), with 27 rebounds. Meanwhile, his counter-part, Russell, had just been pathetic. Russell scored six points, on 2-7 from the field, and 2-4 from the line, with 21 rebounds.

Even more damning...remove Wilt's and Russell's FG/FGAs from that game...and Russell's teammates outshot Wilt's teammates from the floor by a staggering .477 to .360 margin! Even the brilliant West had his lapses. He missed more shots than he made (going 14-29 from the floor), and even missed two of his four missed free-throws down the stretch (going 14-18 overall.)

Unbelievably, the Lakers had lost a seven game series, including a game seven, two point loss, with a series of poor play, multiple miraculous game-winning shots from Boston, an injury to Wilt, and just a complete meltdown by a coach.

When West, and owner Jack Kent Cooke had learned that Wilt had asked to go back in, they were furious. But before Cooke could fire VBK, he quit. Again, the stubborn Van Breda Kolff put his own hatred for Wilt above even winning a world championship.

Chamberlain would eventually get Los Angeles their first ring a couple of years later. LA brought in Bill Sharman in the 71-72 season, and after he basically jettisoned Baylor following the ninth game, the Lakers immediately went on a 33 game winning streak, en route to a 69-13 record, and a dominating world title. Oh, and in the Finals, and with West just choking on his own puke the entire series, Chamberlain absolutely destroyed the Knicks, in a series in which he averaged 19 ppg, 23 rpg, and shot .600 from the field...which included a clinching game five performance of 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds (the entire NY team only had 39), and 8 blocked shots. All accomplished with one badly sprained wrist, and the other fractured.

Now, you know EVERYTHING you need to know about the '69 Finals.

ClipperRevival

02-02-2016, 10:45 PM

He's willfully ignorant IMO. He'd say the same about us, but given the information you're posting, or others I'm not sure how he comes to those conclusions.

Bill Simmons is that you?

Please. Articles can be biased and misleading. Stats can be misleading. All I know is this GOAT level talent laid eggs in 1968 and 1969 and trying to blame everyone but him is just pathetic. This is exactly what I mean, you have to concede some to have a constructive argument but this Laz dude is just so dense.

CavaliersFTW

02-02-2016, 10:46 PM

LAZERUSS

02-02-2016, 10:54 PM

Ordan didn't play in 1994.
In 1995, he played 17 regular season games and clearly didn't have his chemistry and legs under him. He proved this was the case by 3 peating the next 3 years. Same reason why I don't hold 1970 against Wilt because he missed most the season too.

And you are REALLY going to hold a 38-40 year old MJ accountable? Lol.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

And yet you hold a WILT, with MULTIPLE injuries, including the same exact injury that reduced Willis Reed into a useless statue in the '70 Finals...accountable...in a series in which Wilt played all seven games, averaged 48 mpg, ...and averaged 22 ppg, 25 rpg, and 7 apg.

And while you are at it, maybe you can remind us all here of just how well Kareem played in the clinching game six of the '80 Finals.

Or Bird in his entire '88 ECF's against a Bad Boys team that Magic would demolish in the Finals.

BTW, and back to Kareem...he suffered a broken wrist twice in his career, and missed 17 and 20 games respectively.

How about Chamberlain in the clinching game five of the '72 Finals...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

[QUOTE]In the post-season, the Lakers swept the Chicago Bulls,[90] then went on to face the Milwaukee Bucks of young superstar center and regular-season MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (formerly Lew Alcindor). The matchup between Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar was hailed by LIFE magazine as the greatest matchup in all of sports. Chamberlain would help lead the Lakers past Jabbar and the Bucks in six games.[90] Particularly, Chamberlain was lauded for his performance in Game 6, which the Lakers won 104

ClipperRevival

02-02-2016, 10:55 PM

At least he never up and quit for an entire season - like Ordan. Quitters being heralded as winners, gotta drink a lot of jump man sponsored cool aid to ignore that one.

Again, this is your own formula. Rank players by their blunders and failures, not their accolades. Go sit in the grave you dug for Ordan.

Lol. He didn't quit. He had so thoroughly dominated the game and achieved everything there is to achieve that he simply lost that desire to compete. But after a couple of years, that fire came back and he 3 peated.

GOAT gonna GOAT. Ilt fans stay salty.

jongib369

02-02-2016, 10:55 PM

What was Ordan's playoff performance like in 1994? 1995? How about 2001? 2002? What kind of Finals performer was he in the 1980's? Oh yeah, a finals virgin.

Your hero is only a hero when you turn a blind eye to his blunders. Sound familiar? You came up with this crap no one else.

Ordan was a habitual failure when your 2+2 = potato formula for evaluating Wilt is applied. ordan also has a losing record of Championships, he failed to win championships more seasons than he won. Oh - cant use a J because he never had one. Isn't that cool? That's what you like to do, come up with gimmicks like a 12 year old.

He believes in what he's saying so much I've literally had to reread what I already knew to make sure I wasn't going crazy :oldlol:

When my jimmies are rustled it's then I usually make an attempt at a serious post, but I just can't with this guy. Especially when posters are so clearly spelling it out for him. Laz may have a bias, and isn't always right, but to just outright dismiss truths as excuses because...He's Laz, is ridiculous. That's why I take my time reading what 3ball says too. Obviously the guy has his biases, but he also has a LOT of good information. He didn't even bother to answer the question I posed for him, which would dispell the arguments LAz is making if it came out in his favor(which it wouldn't). I'd REALLY like to see Kblazes take on all this...How does one summon him? Say his name three times?

Keep being yourself Clip, we'll be here to remind you 2+2=2.
http://i.imgur.com/pvSMBkd.gif

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/im_retarded_quantum_leap.gif

CavaliersFTW

02-02-2016, 11:00 PM

Lol. He didn't quit. He had so thoroughly dominated the game and achieved everything there is to achieve that he simply lost that desire to compete. But after a couple of years, that fire came back and he 3 peated.

GOAT gonna GOAT. Ilt fans stay salty.
Bill Russell won 8 times in a row. Won 5 MVP's. B2b NCAA titles with NCAA record 55 win streak and an Olympic Gold before winning an NBA chip as a rookie. Won b2b's as a player coach.

14 different Championship/Gold's in literally 14 years. He has a championship/medal/ring for literally every single year he was a competitor on the big stage of NCAA, Olympics, or NBA.

Never lost that desire to compete. That's an EXCUSE for QUITTING. Now get back in the grave you dug for Ordan

http://i.imgur.com/C51ERN9.gif

LAZERUSS

02-02-2016, 11:06 PM

Please. Articles can be biased and misleading. Stats can be misleading. All I know is this GOAT level talent laid eggs in 1968 and 1969 and trying to blame everyone but him is just pathetic. This is exactly what I mean, you have to concede some to have a constructive argument but this Laz dude is just so dense.

Chamberlain should have done what so many other players did. Guys like Reed, KAJ, Bird,...even Russell. Just miss the games, and let the blame fall on someone else if we lose.

Or, instead of single-handedly carry pure trash rosters deep into the playoffs, he should have pulled a Hakeem, and flopped in eight first rounds. BTW, had Chamberlain done exactly that, his playoff stats would have been considerably higher. But, instead, Wilt dragged pathetic rosters into the next round, where inevitably he would run into Russell and the greatest Dynasty, and team defense in NBA history, ...and inevitably...hang a 30-31 .555 seven game series on Russell, but alas, without any help...lose that seventh game by a point.

And you gotta love his '64 Finals, as well. Had he not hung a seven game series of 38-23 .559 in the WCF's, he could have avoided one of his "2/6" Finals black-eyes. Instead, he once again took a roster, that had gone 31-49 just the year before, and was outgunned in HOFers by Russell's roster, 8-3...to a 4-1 series loss (the last two games were decided in the waning seconds.) Oh, and how did Wilt's two HOF teammates do in that Finals? They shot .326 and .258 respectively. Meanwhile, Chamberlain pummeled Russell...outscoring him, per game, 29 ppg to 11 ppg; outrebounded him, 28 rpg to 25 rpg; and outshot him, .517 to .386. What a choker!

Yep...Wilt was a fool. He could have avoided so much by just being a lessor player. Like Hakeem, Reed, KAJ, Bird, et. al.

Akrazotile

02-02-2016, 11:07 PM

Kobe.

:facepalm

CavaliersFTW

02-02-2016, 11:07 PM

Chamberlain should have done what so many other players did. Guys like Reed, KAJ, Bird,...even Russell. Just miss the games, and let the blame fall on someone else if we lose.

Or, instead of single-handedly carry pure trash rosters deep into the playoffs, he should have pulled a Hakeem, and flopped in eight first rounds. BTW, had Chamberlain done exactly that, his playoff stats would have been considerably higher. But, instead, Wilt dragged pathetic rosters into the next round, where inevitably he would run into Russell and the greatest Dynasty, and team defense in NBA history, ...and inevitably...hang a 30-31 .555 seven game series on Russell, but alas, without any help...lose that seventh game by a point.

And you gotta love his '64 Finals, as well. Had he not hung a seven game series of 38-23 .559 in the WCF's, he could have avoided one of his "2/6" Finals black-eyes. Instead, he once again took a roster, that had gone 31-49 just the year before, and was outgunned in HOFers by Russell's roster, 8-3...to a 4-1 series loss (the last two games were decided in the waning seconds.) Oh, and how did Wilt's two HOF teammates do in that Finals? They shot .326 and .258 respectively. Meanwhile, Chamberlain pummeled Russell...outscoring him, per game, 29 ppg to 11 ppg; outrebounded him, 28 rpg to 25 rpg; and outshot him, .517 to .386. What a choker!

Yep...Wilt was a fool. He could have avoided so much by just being a lessor player. Like Hakeem, Reed, KAJ, Bird, et. al.
Or a 1980's Ordan :lol

Wade's Rings

02-02-2016, 11:13 PM

Guys in here backing up Lazeruss like he isn't full of contradictions and deflections.

k0kakw0rld

02-02-2016, 11:15 PM

LeBron James 08-09

Regular Season Stats: 29.7 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 8.6 APG, 1.6 SPG, 1.0 BPG

Playoff Stats: 35.3 PPG, 9.1 RPG, 7.3 APG, 1.6 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 14 games
MONSTER :biggums:

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-02-2016, 11:17 PM

dubeta

02-02-2016, 11:20 PM

LAZERUSS

02-02-2016, 11:21 PM

Bill Russell won 8 times in a row. Won 5 MVP's. B2b NCAA titles with NCAA record 55 win streak and an Olympic Gold before winning an NBA chip as a rookie. Won b2b's as a player coach.

14 different Championship/Gold's in literally 14 years. He has a championship/medal/ring for literally every single year he was a competitor on the big stage of NCAA, Olympics, or NBA.

Never lost that desire to compete. That's an EXCUSE for QUITTING. Now get back in the grave you dug for Ordan

http://i.imgur.com/C51ERN9.gif

I always get a kick out of those that disparage Wilt for "losing" to Russell.

Ok, if Wilt "lost" to Russell...how about these guys?

Dumars held a 3-1 margin over Jordan.
Ainge held a 2-0 margin over Jordan (in fact, 6-0.)

Hakeem? Where do we begin?
Eaton beat him.
Mychal Thompson beat him twice.
Alton Lister beat him.
James Donaldson beat him.
Sam Perkins beat him.
Ervin Johnson beat him.
Ostertag beat him.
Finally...Shaq just murdered him.

Speaking of Shaq...battled the great Greg Ostertag twice...and lost both times. In fact, Ostertag held an 8-1 margin in those nine games.

Kareem? Lost to the likes of Reed, Thurmond, Cowens, Wilt, Walton, Moses (in fact, lost both series, and by a 6-1 margin), Sampson, and Parish...but also to Marvin Webster, and Jack Sikma.

So, if Russell were somehow a greater player than Wilt, based on TEAM performances...well, then Ainge dominated MJ, Ostertag punished both Hakeem and Shaq, and Marvin Webster was a greater player than Kareem.

dubeta

02-02-2016, 11:22 PM

LeBron James 08-09 (66-16)

Regular Season Stats: 29.1 PPG, 7.4 RPG, 7.9 APG, 1.7 SPG, 1.1 BPG, 50-34-77 shooting, 157 games

Playoff Stats: 32.6 PPG, 9.2 RPG, 7.4 APG, 1.7 SPG, 1.3 BPG, 51-36-74 shooting, 25 games

MONSTER :biggums:

where are you getting your numbers?

LeBrons playoffs stats were actually 35.3 points 9.1 rebounds 7.3 assists

CavaliersFTW

02-02-2016, 11:22 PM

Guys in here backing up Lazeruss like he isn't full of contradictions and deflections.
As biased as Laz can be at least he brings facts and tries to correct when misinformation is placed on the table. The guy who started this whole argument either acts deliberately stubborn or is literally so biased he's incapable of absorbing information that doesn't support his narrative. He's a pot calling the kettle black because when you flip his own standards on to his favorite player his favorite player crumbles - as would any player save for Bill Russell. Who is a far greater winner than Jordan ever was, and he was dominant too. Wilt is a far more dominant player than MJ ever was, and he won some too.

Jordan's career and stats result in a nice meet sort of half-way between of the two, as does a guy like KAJ. Arguing who's best is like arguing which superhero is best, the winner really just comes down to who's your favorite. Trying to harp on any of them about anything is ridiculous. So for someone to just sit behind their keyboard and try to judge these players based on failures rather than accolades yet not be able to turn around and do the same thing for the player they're trying to prop up? Just juvenile. There can be no intelligent conversation with posting like that.

LAZERUSS

02-02-2016, 11:23 PM

Guys in here backing up Lazeruss like he isn't full of contradictions and deflections.

Go ahead...

please explain...

LAZERUSS

02-02-2016, 11:24 PM

ClipperRevival

02-02-2016, 11:36 PM

I always get a kick out of those that disparage Wilt for "losing" to Russell.

Ok, if Wilt "lost" to Russell...how about these guys?

Dumars held a 3-1 margin over Jordan.
Ainge held a 2-0 margin over Jordan (in fact, 6-0.)

Hakeem? Where do we begin?
Eaton beat him.
Mychal Thompson beat him twice.
Alton Lister beat him.
James Donaldson beat him.
Sam Perkins beat him.
Ervin Johnson beat him.
Ostertag beat him.
Finally...Shaq just murdered him.

Speaking of Shaq...battled the great Greg Ostertag twice...and lost both times. In fact, Ostertag held an 8-1 margin in those nine games.

Kareem? Lost to the likes of Reed, Thurmond, Cowens, Wilt, Walton, Moses (in fact, lost both series, and by a 6-1 margin), Sampson, and Parish...but also to Marvin Webster, and Jack Sikma.

So, if Russell were somehow a greater player than Wilt, based on TEAM performances...well, then Ainge dominated MJ, Ostertag punished both Hakeem and Shaq, and Marvin Webster was a greater player than Kareem.

Jesus Christ man, you just come across as a completely insecure Wilt fan with no sense of proper context. Your need to deflect any blame from Wilt has distorted the way you view other greats. You ALWAYS go on an on about other great's weak points and try to bring them down to Ilt's level.

Just keep doing you man. :facepalm

ClipperRevival

02-02-2016, 11:40 PM

More excuses.

BUT, NONE for Wilt, right?

Remember I was willing to concede that it wasn't fair to blame 1970 on Wilt after finding out he missed most the season? Of course you don't. Because you are dense. You aren't willing to concede anything. I am objective. I really am. And I just try to call it like I see it. You don't with Wilt.

I remember you even saying a few times that Wilt's 1969 finals was by far his worst playoff performance. But here you are again, back to, " it wasn't his fault."

Like I said, do you. I don't expect any concessions.

LAZERUSS

02-02-2016, 11:40 PM

Wilt vs Jordan in the playoffs? Seriously? Wilt's postseason failures are like demons in the vatican. Horrifying freethrows and all.

I'm okay with saying Wilt has a case for GOAT. But arguing that he's a better postseason player or even in that tier? Nope.

Yeah... a bad post-season for Wilt was "only" getting 20 rpp, and crushing his HOF peers on the glass,...all while holding those same HOF peers to just horrific shooting.

But, I'll play...

Here are Wilt's numbers in all 23 of his "must win" playoff games...

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)

3 games of 50+ points (including the ONLY THREE by a GOAT candidate)

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

But, let's carry this even further shall we...how about EVERY one of his 37 "must win" and "closeout" playoff games...

Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16

W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)

BTW, how about an old Wilt, and a peak Kareem, in their two "series clinching" H2H games?

He outshot a peak Kareem by a collective margin of .545 (18-33) to .383 (23-60.)

Yep...a prime Wilt, in his 67 post-season games (41 against Russell BTW) that AVERAGED 30 ppg, 27 rpg, 5 apg, likely 8+ bpg, and shot a FG% of .515, in post-seasons that shot about .420 in that same span.

Of course, maybe you can post your list of GOATs that hung a 30-27-5-8 all while outshooting the post-season league average by ten percentage points. Hell, go ahead and give us a GOAT who had even ONE SERIES with that stat line (much less over a 67 game span.) In fact, you would be hard-pressed to find a GOAT who had ONE GAME with that stat-line.

That was a Wilt with so many post-season "failures."

Oh, and how about FT shooting? Of course, we know that Shaq was no better than Chamberlain in his post-season FT shooting, but he still managed to win four rings...including two in which he shot .387 and .292 from the line in his Finals. And how about Russell? The man had SEVERAL post-season runs of sub-60% FT shooting, AND, at the same time...sub 40% FG shooting. And yet, he still somehow managed to win 11 rings.

CavaliersFTW

02-02-2016, 11:41 PM

Jesus Christ man, you just come across as a completely insecure Wilt fan with no sense of proper context. Your need to deflect any blame from Wilt has distorted the way you view other greats. You ALWAYS go on an on about other great's weak points and try to bring them down to Ilt's level.

Just keep doing you man. :facepalm
Rephrase that with Jordan in place of Wilt and apply it to yourself.

http://timscogitorium.com/tinblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/pot-kettle-black-300x203.jpg

Mr. judge all players save for MJ based on "failures" instead of accolades :facepalm

ClipperRevival

02-02-2016, 11:47 PM

Rephrase that with Jordan in place of Wilt and apply it to yourself.

http://timscogitorium.com/tinblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/pot-kettle-black-300x203.jpg

Mr. judge all players save for MJ based on "failures" instead of accolades :facepalm

I would be glad to address anything specific about MJ. But you have proven that you lack proper context. Like bringing up his Wizards years as proof that he's some loser? Or calling him a "quiter" for retiring after he lost the desire? Those don't sound like fair criticisms.

My only gripe is with Wilt's 1968 and 1969 playoff failures, when he had the superior teams, had HCA, had 3-1 and 3-2 leads and laid eggs in games 6 and 7 in both years. It happened. I just wish you guys would admit that he came up short and move on. But you Wilt fans concede nothing. You think when he loses, it's always someone else's fault. And that's just annoying.

LAZERUSS

02-02-2016, 11:50 PM

Remember I was willing to concede that it wasn't fair to blame 1970 on Wilt after finding out he missed most the season? Of course you don't. Because you are dense. You aren't willing to concede anything. I am objective. I really am. And I just try to call it like I see it. You don't with Wilt.

I remember you even saying a few times that Wilt's 1969 finals was by far his worst playoff performance. But here you are again, back to, " it wasn't his fault."

Like I said, do you. I don't expect any concessions.

It was the worst post-season series of his entire career.

BUT, I have already given you the EXACT reason why, as well. It was his COACH, who was basically fired immediately after game seven for keeping Wilt on the bench in the last five minutes.

And, in that game seven, Wilt outscored Russell, 18-6; outshot Russell from the field, 7-8 to 2-7; had a TS% of .621 to Russell's .333; and outrebounded Russell, 27-21...all in a two point loss, and missing the last five minutes of the game.

Not to mention Baylor choking on his own puke in three losses, and then inbounding the ball to EGAN in the closing seconds of game four...which ultimately cost the Lakers the entire series.

Interesting too, that the Lakers hired a new coach for the very next season, Joe Mullaney, and his first order of business was to ask WILT to become the focal point of the offense. And Chamberlain then went out and was leading the league in scoring, at 32.2 ppg (on a .579 FG% to go along with 20.6 rpg), when he shredded the same knee that he had injured in game seven of the '69 Finals.

All of which sums up Wilt's career. He did whatever was asked of him. Whether his coach wanted him to score 50 ppg; or hang a 24-24-8 .683; or dominate defensively and ignite a fast break that just terrorized the league; ... you name it, he did it.

If anything, many of Wilt's failures could be directly blamed on his coaching, which was, quite frankly, incompetent for much of his career.

CavaliersFTW

02-02-2016, 11:57 PM

ClipperRevival

02-03-2016, 12:01 AM

It was the worst post-season series of his entire career.

BUT, I have already given you the EXACT reason why, as well. It was his COACH, who was basically fired immediately after game seven for keeping Wilt on the bench in the last five minutes.

And, in that game seven, Wilt outscored Russell, 18-6; outshot Russell from the field, 7-8 to 2-7; had a TS% of .621 to Russell's .333; and outrebounded Russell, 27-21...all in a two point loss, and missing the last five minutes of the game.

Not to mention Baylor choking on his own puke in three losses, and then inbounding the ball to EGAN in the closing seconds of game four...which ultimately cost the Lakers the entire series.

Interesting too, that the Lakers hired a new coach for the very next season, Joe Mullaney, and his first order of business was to ask WILT to become the focal point of the offense. And Chamberlain then went out and was leading the league in scoring, at 32.2 ppg (on a .579 FG% to go along with 20.6 rpg), when he shredded the same knee that he had injured in game seven of the '69 Finals.

All of which sums up Wilt's career. He did whatever was asked of him. Whether his coach wanted him to score 50 ppg; or hang a 24-24-8 .683; or dominate defensively and ignite a fast break that just terrorized the league; ... you name it, he did it.

If anything, many of Wilt's failures could be directly blamed on his coaching, which was, quite frankly, incompetent for much of his career.

Lol. Like I said, do you.

LAZERUSS

02-03-2016, 12:01 AM

I would be glad to address anything specific about MJ. But you have proven that you lack proper context. Like bringing up his Wizards years as proof that he's some loser? Or calling him a "quiter" for retiring after he lost the desire? Those don't sound like fair criticisms.

My only gripe is with Wilt's 1968 and 1969 playoff failures, when he had the superior teams, had HCA, had 3-1 and 3-2 leads and laid eggs in games 6 and 7 in both years. It happened. I just wish you guys would admit that he came up short and move on. But you Wilt fans concede nothing. You think when he loses, it's always someone else's fault. And that's just annoying.

You have the audacity to put "proper context" and Wilt's "playoff failures" in the same post?

I have already given you everything you could possibly ever know about Wilt's '68 and '69 "playoff failures", and yet you continue to claim that he laid an egg in those series.

It was a MIRACLE that Wilt (and his team for that matter) even PLAYED in the '68 EDF's. As it would be in his '70 Finals, as well.

And in '69...well let me ask you this...

how do you think MJ would have taken it, had his coach asked him to say, just facilitate the offense, and make sure that Pippen and Grant got their shots...BUT, you MJ, will NOT be shooting the ball!!!???

And even worse...to have to watch in horror, while his teammates collectively shot .360 from the floor in that game seven (while shooting .875 himself)?

Wade's Rings

02-03-2016, 12:08 AM

Go ahead...

please explain...

I'll provide my proof later or tomorrow since I'm on my phone right now.

ClipperRevival

02-03-2016, 12:08 AM

It's been pointed out before, 1968 his teammates never got him the ball, and in 1969 he wasn't even let back in the game by a volatile coach.

Your legitimate criticisms are legitimate the same way mine are that MJ failed to win a ring in 1994 by becoming the biggest quitter in the history of the NBA. And was a perennial playoff loser through the 1980's, and as a veteran on the Wizards.

Hey, no hard feelings, I'm just ignoring context and writing it all off as "excuses", like you showed me how to do.

Wilt in game 6 and 7 in 1968: 17.0 PG, 39% FT on 39 attempts in games where his team lost by 8 and 4 points.

Wilt in game 6 and 7 1969: 13.0 PPG, 44% FT on 23 attempts in games where his team lost by 9 and 2. His 4/13 FT at 30% in game 7 when they lost by 2 sticks out.

But I know, poor lil Ilt, always something else but HIM for why his teams lost. :applause:

LAZERUSS

02-03-2016, 12:13 AM

I would be glad to address anything specific about MJ. But you have proven that you lack proper context. Like bringing up his Wizards years as proof that he's some loser? Or calling him a "quiter" for retiring after he lost the desire? Those don't sound like fair criticisms.

My only gripe is with Wilt's 1968 and 1969 playoff failures, when he had the superior teams, had HCA, had 3-1 and 3-2 leads and laid eggs in games 6 and 7 in both years. It happened. I just wish you guys would admit that he came up short and move on. But you Wilt fans concede nothing. You think when he loses, it's always someone else's fault. And that's just annoying.

I'm going to be very honest with you. Chamberlain played in 160 playoff games in his career, and I doubt that you could find any more than 20 in which he played poorly all the way around. Hell, he had 20+ rebounds in 124 of them. And without looking it up, I believe he had a 20-20 game in HALF of them....which included the 62 playoff games after his knee surgery.

And his defense was just suffocating, as well. My god, and old Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee, held a peak KAJ to .481 shooting (in a season in which he shot .577), and then .457 (in a season in which he shot .574) in their two post-season series. BTW, in that second series, he held KAJ to .414 shooting in the last four pivotal games of that series.

I could go right down the list, as well. Players like Bellamy, Thurmond, and Russell...WAY BELOW their normal efficiencies.

And a PRIME Chamberlain, in his 67 games (again, with 35 against Russell, and six more against Thurmond) AVERAGED a 30-27-5-8 and on a FG% that was ten percentage points higher than the post-season league average in that same span. Oh, and he was crushing his peers on the glass, and holding them to horrific shooting, as well.

Sure, you can find perhaps 10 poor games. Maybe even a few more, but they were few-and-far between. And, even in those, he was probably playing injured.

ClipperRevival

02-03-2016, 12:14 AM

You have the audacity to put "proper context" and Wilt's "playoff failures" in the same post?

I have already given you everything you could possibly ever know about Wilt's '68 and '69 "playoff failures", and yet you continue to claim that he laid an egg in those series.

It was a MIRACLE that Wilt (and his team for that matter) even PLAYED in the '68 EDF's. As it would be in his '70 Finals, as well.

And in '69...well let me ask you this...

how do you think MJ would have taken it, had his coach asked him to say, just facilitate the offense, and make sure that Pippen and Grant got their shots...BUT, you MJ, will NOT be shooting the ball!!!???

And even worse...to have to watch in horror, while his teammates collectively shot .360 from the floor in that game seven (while shooting .875 himself)?

You moron, the Lakers made their huge comeback in game 7 in 1969 when Ilt was on the bench, "injured". They were down by like 15 and came within a few points. Of course, not his fault for shoting 4/13 from the FT line in a game they lost by 2 points huh? What was it? The wind?

And an alpha killer like MJ would never be in a spot like Wilt where PJ would disrespect him like that because MJ would've brought it. He's the GOAT put his foot down when it matters most player in history. I know another Bull who refused to come out because a play wasn't drawn for him but for Kukoc. He wore #33.

LAZERUSS

02-03-2016, 12:20 AM

Wilt in game 6 and 7 in 1968: 17.0 PG, 39% FT on 39 attempts in games where his team lost by 8 and 4 points.

Wilt in game 6 and 7 1969: 13.0 PPG, 44% FT on 23 attempts in games where his team lost by 9 and 2. His 4/13 FT at 30% in game 7 when they lost by 2 sticks out.

But I know, poor lil Ilt, always something else but HIM for why his teams lost. :applause:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeah...let's completely ignore his injuries in the '68 ECF's. Or the fact that in game seven, he still grabbed 34 rebounds. Or that his teammates shot 33% from the field in that game seven (all while passing the ball into Wilt a total of nine times in the second half, and only twice in the 4th quarter.) Greer...shot 8-25. Walker...shot 8-22. Wali Jones... 8-22. Jackson... 7-17. And Guokas... 2-10. Wilt? 4-9!

'69 game seven... 4-13 from the line. Let's ignore his 7-8 from the field, right? Or that Russell shot 2-7 from the floor, and 2-4 from the line, right? Or that Wilt had a TS% of .621 to Russell's .333, right? Or that Chamberlain outrebounded Russell, 27-21 (and in five minutes less.) Or that, remove Wilt and Russell's FG/FGAs, and Russell's teammates outshot Wilt's from the field by a .477 to .360 margin...in a two point win (and with Wilt benched in the last five minutes.)

CONTEXT.

ClipperRevival

02-03-2016, 12:24 AM

I'm going to be very honest with you. Chamberlain played in 160 playoff games in his career, and I doubt that you could find any more than 20 in which he played poorly all the way around. Hell, he had 20+ rebounds in 124 of them. And without looking it up, I believe he had a 20-20 game in HALF of them....which included the 62 playoff games after his knee surgery.

And his defense was just suffocating, as well. My god, and old Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee, held a peak KAJ to .481 shooting (in a season in which he shot .577), and then .457 (in a season in which he shot .574) in their two post-season series. BTW, in that second series, he held KAJ to .414 shooting in the last four pivotal games of that series.

I could go right down the list, as well. Players like Bellamy, Thurmond, and Russell...WAY BELOW their normal efficiencies.

And a PRIME Chamberlain, in his 67 games (again, with 35 against Russell, and six more against Thurmond) AVERAGED a 30-27-5-8 and on a FG% that was ten percentage points higher than the post-season league average in that same span. Oh, and he was crushing his peers on the glass, and holding them to horrific shooting, as well.

Sure, you can find perhaps 10 poor games. Maybe even a few more, but they were few-and-far between. And, even in those, he was probably playing injured.

This is more objective but I know you'll never concede that his poor play cost him championships in 1968 and 1969. It would be too much for a die hard Wilt fan to admit. He won 2 rings so it's not like he's ringless. His place in history is secure, most objective fans putting him top 5, including myself. He had some short comings. Can't you just admit that and move on? I never bashed Wilt for anything pre 1967 or post 1971. The guy was special but he had two huge playoff collapses and that prevented him from being viewed even greater. And that is just being objective.

LAZERUSS

02-03-2016, 12:25 AM

You moron, the Lakers made their huge comeback in game 7 in 1969 when Ilt was on the bench, "injured". They were down by like 15 and came within a few points. Of course, not his fault for shoting 4/13 from the FT line in a game they lost by 2 points huh? What was it? The wind?

And an alpha killer like MJ would never be in a spot like Wilt where PJ would disrespect him like that because MJ would've brought it. He's the GOAT put his foot down when it matters most player in history. I know another Bull who refused to come out because a play wasn't drawn for him but for Kukoc. He wore #33.

RESEARCH, my friend. RESEARCH. Try it sometime.

Now, the FACTS...

The Lakers were down by 17 points with 10 minutes left. In a little over four minutes, they wiped out 10 points from that deficit. When Chamberlain left the game with his injured knee, they had cut a 17 point deficit down to 7. And all in a little over four minutes. They did manage to cut five more points off the deficit in the last 5+ minutes...but, they wound up losing by two (and trailed by five with a minute to go.)

How did Wilt's "replacement", Mel Counts do in that last five minutes? He did hit a shot over "el matador" Russell (who basically hid the entire 4th quarter with his five fouls), BUT, he also missed a crucial shot with a minute to go, and then threw the ball away in the waning seconds. And overall, he shot 4-13 from the field. Which was FAR worse than shooting 4-13 from the line.

LAZERUSS

02-03-2016, 12:29 AM

You moron, the Lakers made their huge comeback in game 7 in 1969 when Ilt was on the bench, "injured". They were down by like 15 and came within a few points. Of course, not his fault for shoting 4/13 from the FT line in a game they lost by 2 points huh? What was it? The wind?

And an alpha killer like MJ would never be in a spot like Wilt where PJ would disrespect him like that because MJ would've brought it. He's the GOAT put his foot down when it matters most player in history. I know another Bull who refused to come out because a play wasn't drawn for him but for Kukoc. He wore #33.

Did MJ ever have a completely incompetent coach, who absolutely hated him from day one? To the point that he would rather lose a game seven with Jordan on the bench, than to allow MJ to play the last few minutes, and possibly (quite likely actually) win the game?

Do you think Jackson would have pulled Chamberlain out? How many times did he bench Shaq in the last five minutes of a critical and close playoff game? And BTW, do you honestly believe that PJ would have had a prime Shaq playing the HIGH POST, and reducing him to 10 FGAs per game?

ClipperRevival

02-03-2016, 12:30 AM

RESEARCH, my friend. RESEARCH. Try it sometime.

Now, the FACTS...

The Lakers were down by 17 points with 10 minutes left. In a little over four minutes, they wiped out 10 points from that deficit. When Chamberlain left the game with his injured knee, they had cut a 17 point deficit down to 7. And all in a little over four minutes. They did manage to cut five more points off the deficit in the last 5+ minutes...but, they wound up losing by two (and trailed by five with a minute to go.)

How did Wilt's "replacement", Mel Counts do in that last five minutes? He did hit a shot over "el matador" Russell (who basically hid the entire 4th quarter with his five fouls), BUT, he also missed a crucial shot with a minute to go, and then threw the ball away in the waning seconds. And overall, he shot 4-13 from the field. Which was FAR worse than shooting 4-13 from the line.

Do you not realize that with every new deflection you bring up, it only makes YOU look desparate? You just can't concede anything. You claim Wilt is the GOAT but when he plays bad, you blame everyone else. That doesn't register. As the best player on your team, shouldn't you carry the largest load when it matters most?

Segatti

02-03-2016, 12:32 AM

2012 Lebron James.

ClipperRevival

02-03-2016, 12:32 AM

Did MJ ever have a completely incompetent coach, who absolutely hated him from day one? To the point that he would rather lose a game seven with Jordan on the bench, than to allow MJ to play the last few minutes, and possibly (quite likely actually) win the game?

Do you think Jackson would have pulled Chamberlain out? How many times did he bench Shaq in the last five minutes of a critical and close playoff game? And BTW, do you honestly believe that PJ would have had a prime Shaq playing the HIGH POST, and reducing him to 10 FGAs per game?

MJ had 3 coaches in his first 3 seasons in the league.

jongib369

02-03-2016, 12:35 AM

MJ had 3 coaches in his first 3 seasons in the league.
Yet he didn't win until he had a competent coach, and the right supporting cast that stayed healthy. Also not having to face a dynasty/powerhouse team like the 60's/80's Celtics, or 80s Lakers

CavaliersFTW

02-03-2016, 12:38 AM

MJ had 3 coaches in his first 3 seasons in the league.
If MJ had the volatile "I can't stand players with bad tempers and big egos!" volatile ex-marine Van Breda Koff as a coach he'd literally have zero rings.

MJ's exactly the kind of personality that Van would fight with all season and bench.

LAZERUSS

02-03-2016, 12:38 AM

Do you not realize that with every new deflection you bring up, it only makes YOU look desparate? You just can't concede anything. You claim Wilt is the GOAT but when he plays bad, you blame everyone else. That doesn't register. As the best player on your team, shouldn't you carry the largest load when it matters most?

One more time...

https://books.google.com/books?id=9BaqPfGcI84C&pg=PA355&lpg=PA355&dq=butch+van+breda+kolff+had+chamberlain+playing+t he+high+post&source=bl&ots=rQxpX4Ys7l&sig=oosFtJ3aB-NUrdTlS-5xi8-eHyI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi70fWD0svKAhVDuYMKHSvWDRgQ6AEIQTAJ#v=on epage&q=butch%20van%20breda%20kolff%20had%20chamberlain% 20playing%20the%20high%20post&f=false

Chamberlain: "Butch wanted me to play the high post so Elgin could drive to the basket, but they got me for rebounding. Why pull a guy away from the basket when you want him to rebound?"

And... (I just find this hilarious BTW)...

Butch Van Breda Kolff: "Not having enough basketballs wasn't the problem at all for us. The trade changed our chemistry. Elgin's favorite move was the drive from the left wing and into the middle. Now, when he did that, he ran into Wilt, and Wilt's man. Wilt took that move away from Elgin. Imhoff loved to pick-and-roll with Elgin, but that wasn't something Wilt did very well. So we were able to throw the ball down low to Wilt and he'd score, but it was an awful offense to watch. When the ball stops moving, then guys don't rebound or play defense as well as they normally would."

So, instead of "throwing the ball down low to Wilt" so that he could SCORE...Van Breda Kolff preferred an offense with Wilt playing the HIGH POST, and letting a shot-jacking Baylor shoot a team low, .385 from the field in the post-season, and .397 in the Finals (which included CLOSE losses in which he shot 2-14, 4-18, and 8-22.)

Again....do you think Phil Jackson would have had a prime Shaq playing the HIGH POST, and in the process, giving him about 10 FGAs per game, so that his other teammates could shoot .385?

ClipperRevival

02-03-2016, 12:41 AM

Yet he didn't win until he had a competent coach, and the right supporting cast that stayed healthy. Also not having to face a dynasty/powerhouse team like the 60's/80's Celtics, or 80s Lakers

And MJ didn't know how to play optimal team ball his first few years in the league. He tried to do too much himself. It wasn't until PJ came on board in 1990 and Pip/Grant started to mature when PJ convinced MJ he needed to change up his game and get his teammates involved more. See, I have no problem admitting MJ had flaws. I really try to be objective. Everyone who was alive before MJ won a ring knows that he was viewed as a great individual talent who didn't know how to win. But once he learned how to play the right way and had the proper supporting cast, he never lost.

ClipperRevival

02-03-2016, 12:45 AM

One more time...

https://books.google.com/books?id=9BaqPfGcI84C&pg=PA355&lpg=PA355&dq=butch+van+breda+kolff+had+chamberlain+playing+t he+high+post&source=bl&ots=rQxpX4Ys7l&sig=oosFtJ3aB-NUrdTlS-5xi8-eHyI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi70fWD0svKAhVDuYMKHSvWDRgQ6AEIQTAJ#v=on epage&q=butch%20van%20breda%20kolff%20had%20chamberlain% 20playing%20the%20high%20post&f=false

And... (I just find this hilarious BTW)...

So, instead of "throwing the ball down low to Wilt" so that he could SCORE...Van Breda Kolff preferred an offense with Wilt playing the HIGH POST, and letting a shot-jacking Baylor shoot a team low, .385 from the field in the post-season, and .397 in the Finals (which included CLOSE losses in which he shot 2-14, 4-18, and 8-22.)

Again....do you think Phil Jackson would have had a prime Shaq playing the HIGH POST, and in the process, giving him about 10 FGAs per game, so that his other teammates could shoot .385?

He also said it stopped the ball. As a coach, you always want your team to play optimal ball. But again, you are just digging a deeper grave as you continue to blame anyone but Wilt. It's quite comical how desparate you are.

jongib369

02-03-2016, 12:47 AM

And MJ didn't know how to play optimal team ball his first few years in the league. He tried to do too much himself. It wasn't until PJ came on board in 1990 and Pip/Grant started to mature when PJ convinced MJ he needed to change up his game and get his teammates involved more. See, I have no problem admitting MJ had flaws. I really try to be objective. Everyone who was alive before MJ won a ring knows that he was viewed as a great individual talent who didn't know how to win. But once he learned how to play the right way and had the proper supporting cast, he never lost.
So MJ needed convincing, and Wilt changed his role at will for the coach? Guy could of averaged 35-40PPG for his career if he was stubborn like MJ lol

I'm a Wilt guy...But don't get me wrong, I'm from Chicago and caught the tail end of his career....Thought he was GOAT until about 2012/2013(After I joined this site)

Starting a franchise, to mold to w/e I wanted for my team there's not a player I'd pick over Chamberlain. Especially if I had a coach like Red, Phil, Pop etc

LAZERUSS

02-03-2016, 12:48 AM

And MJ didn't know how to play optimal team ball his first few years in the league. He tried to do too much himself. It wasn't until PJ came on board in 1990 and Pip/Grant started to mature when PJ convinced MJ he needed to change up his game and get his teammates involved more. See, I have no problem admitting MJ had flaws. I really try to be objective. Everyone who was alive before MJ won a ring knows that he was viewed as a great individual talent who didn't know how to win. But once he learned how to play the right way and had the proper supporting cast, he never lost.

When Wilt had a "proper supporting cast", that was healthy, and was well-coached... records of 68-13 and 69-13, and two dominating titles. In every other season he had supporting casts that were vastly inferior to Celtic teams (with as many as NINE HOFers); and/or were injured; and/or were poorly coached (which was in the vast majority of his career); and/or...a combination of all of those. Not to mention Chamberlain's own injuries...and in which he STILL put up huge numbers.

When Wilt had rosters that were the EQUAL of Russell's, and healthy, he destroyed him and his dynasty. BTW, his '69 roster may have been favored, but they were not equal...especially with Baylor just blowing chunks the entire series. Not to mention Butch "the Butcher" Van Breda Kolff as his head coach.

LAZERUSS

02-03-2016, 12:51 AM

He also said it stopped the ball. As a coach, you always want your team to play optimal ball. But again, you are just digging a deeper grave as you continue to blame anyone but Wilt. It's quite comical how desparate you are.

Funny...in Wilt's two previous seasons before going to LA, his teams ran away with the best records in the league, and when healthy, as in '67, just overwhelmed the league.

I wonder how he all of a sudden, just "stopped the ball?"

Of course, Jackson did the same thing with a prime Shaq too, right? Better to have happy teammates, than to win.

k0kakw0rld

02-03-2016, 12:54 AM

where are you getting your numbers?

LeBrons playoffs stats were actually 35.3 points 9.1 rebounds 7.3 assists
My bad you are actually looking at 08-10 seasons :banghead:

ClipperRevival

02-03-2016, 12:58 AM

When Wilt had a "proper supporting cast", that was healthy, and was well-coached... records of 68-13 and 69-13, and two dominating titles. In every other season he had supporting casts that were vastly inferior to Celtic teams (with as many as NINE HOFers); and/or were injured; and/or were poorly coached (which was in the vast majority of his career); and/or...a combination of all of those. Not to mention Chamberlain's own injuries...and in which he STILL put up huge numbers.

When Wilt had rosters that were the EQUAL of Russell's, and healthy, he destroyed him and his dynasty. BTW, his '69 roster may have been favored, but they were not equal...especially with Baylor just blowing chunks the entire series. Not to mention Butch "the Butcher" Van Breda Kolff as his head coach.

:facepalm :rolleyes: You should get a tattoo on your forehead that saids, "It's not Wilt's fault." And on your back, list all the excuses.

dubeta

02-03-2016, 01:00 AM

:facepalm :rolleyes: You should get a tattoo on your forehead that saids, "It's not Wilt's fault." And on your back, list all the excuses.

What's your excuse for Jordan's 1-9?

ClipperRevival

02-03-2016, 01:04 AM

So MJ needed convincing, and Wilt changed his role at will for the coach? Guy could of averaged 35-40PPG for his career if he was stubborn like MJ lol

I'm a Wilt guy...But don't get me wrong, I'm from Chicago and caught the tail end of his career....Thought he was GOAT until about 2012/2013(After I joined this site)

Starting a franchise, to mold to w/e I wanted for my team there's not a player I'd pick over Chamberlain. Especially if I had a coach like Red, Phil, Pop etc

When you say tail end, you mean what? His Wizard days? Or his last few rings in 1997/1998 ish? As good as MJ was in his last 3 peat, he was that much more impactful in his first 3 peat. If you didn't see MJ play as it happened, you missed out. If you did, I'm pretty sure you would be convinced MJ is the GOAT.

One reason why I like MJ so much is because he had to climb hurdles. He wasn't placed in a great scenario with great teammates and system right away. He had to get humbled by the Celtics and Pistons and endure years of early playoff exits along with fighting the label of great individual talent but can't win like Magic/Bird. That's why he cried when he got his first ring. The effort and pain it took him to get there was a hard climb. And he solidified his greatness by never relinquishing his crown once he climbed the mountain.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-03-2016, 01:07 AM

:facepalm :rolleyes: You should get a tattoo on your forehead that saids, "It's not Wilt's fault." And on your back, list all the excuses.

Everything is an excuse for Wilt.

The fact his playoff woes are being compared to Jordan's (minimal in comparison) says it all.

Debating these nutjobs got tiresome and I just stopped altogether years back. :lol

ClipperRevival

02-03-2016, 01:09 AM

Dubeta,

My excuse for 1-9?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=394831

LAZERUSS

02-03-2016, 01:18 AM

Dubeta,

My excuse for 1-9?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=394831

Looks like nothing but excuses for the so-called GOAT. Surely he could have done more than hang close-out games of 6-16, 8-18, and 9-35 in those three first round losses, right?

Funny...Wilt immediately took a last place roster in his rookie season, to a 49-26 record, and a game six, two point loss against a 59-16 Celtic team in the ECF's. And two years later, with basically the same core, but now they are older and worse, and takes them to a game seven, two point loss against a HOF-laden 60-20 Celtic team. Or a few years later, take a 40-40 team to the EDF's, where his team loses a game seven, by one point, to the 62-18 Celtics, and in a series in which he averaged 30 ppg, 31 rpg, and shot .555.

Seems like Wilt could do more with less.

MJ gets all kinds of excuses...but a hobbled Wilt, with a team decimated by injuries, and wasn't even expected to get past the first round...and still puts up a seven game series of 22-25-7...well, he choked.

Or an MJ that comes back in '95, and is so fully healthy and refreshed that he can hang a 55 point game only five games back...but still loses in the second round, with the exact same roster that a Grant carried just as far (in fact much farther given the context of those two series)...well, he was "rusty."

Yep...the WILT DOUBLE-STANDARD.

3ball

02-03-2016, 04:25 AM

Regarding the proportion of team points, and points + assists - Tracy Mcgrady's was probably at an ALL TIME high in 2003

Tmac's 2003 is nowhere near all-time best - MJ and Lebron's prime were materially better - even 34-35 year old MJ scored a higher proportion of his team's points in the playoffs and also 4th quarters than 2003 Tmac:

...............PERCENTAGE OF TEAM POINTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER WAS ON FLOOR

.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th

JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <---- these are links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

TMAC 2003....... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1503/stats/usage/?Season=2002-03&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1503/stats/usage/?Season=2002-03&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1503/stats/usage/?Season=2002-03&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 43.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1503/stats/usage/?Season=2002-03&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)

Now if you include assists, Tmac's offensive load is higher, so he carried a bigger offensive load during his 1-time-wonder season of 2003, than 34-35 year old MJ.. And that's the point of those stats - to show who carried the heavier offensive load - and Tmac did in 2003.

I don't have a problem conceding this because MJ was 35 years old and he still scored a higher proportion of his team's points (as shown above, especially in the CLUTCH), while playing much better defense (1st team all-defense).. And he won a championship while carrying the heavier scoring, clutch and defensive load, while Tmac was upset and choked in the first round:

(he lost a 3-1 lead in embarrassing fashion after gloating that the series was won in Game 4 post-game presser - then he quit in the middle of Game 7 post-game presser like a bitch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyWEwmFG0W4&t=0m50s) - seriously, Jordan was an huge alpha by comparison - he ALWAYS faced the music when he got beat by the SAME Pistons while carrying a HEAVIER load)... Obviously, I would SNAP-take 35 year old MJ over 2003 Tmac.

but McGrady was never better than either Wilt, Shaq or Jordan obviously. Quit posting this goofy stat.

You put Shaq in the same sentence as Wilt and MJ, as if he was anywhere NEAR as good... Everyone needs to quit with this incessant overrating of Shaq.

He was a much worse offensive and defensive player than Wilt and MJ over the course of his career, and he had FAR more help... Do you realize that Shaq played with Penny Hardaway (2-time First Team All-NBA), Kobe Bryant (arguably top 10 player all-time), and Dwayne Wade (perennial First Team All-NBA)?.. These are literally 3 of the top 6-7 wing players in the last 25 years.

NO ONE had more help than Shaq, yet he underachieved like a mo.therfu.cker.. If you gave MJ or Wilt that kind of help, they would've won the championship every single year..... or at least MJ would have.

BTW, "higher proportion" of a teams' production means nothing... Quit posting this goofy stat.

The proportion of team points while a player is on the floor, or proportion of points + assists is THE most legitimate stat to measure the offensive load carried by a given player... There is no better stat, in part because it only considers what the player did WHILE THEY WERE ON THE FLOOR.

You're only denying the facts because you don't like how old Jordan was still better than nearly everyone else's prime - for example, maybe you don't like how 1997/1998 Jordan had a higher proportion of his team's points, and points + assists while winning his LAST 2 rings, than prime Lebron had while winning his ONLY 2 rings:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12095171&postcount=1

But you shouldn't be surprised that old MJ was still better than almost everyone's prime - there's a reason why 35-year old MJ won regular season MVP, all-star MVP, Finals MVP, 1st team all-defense, scoring championship, NBA championship - because he's the GOAT, by far, not by a little... Again, he did all this at 35 years old.

But again, I'm guessing this makes you uncomfortable, so you call the most legitimate stats that have been posted on ISH this year "goofy"... :rolleyes:
.

jstern

02-03-2016, 04:36 AM

Jordan pretty much went all out, more so than anyone else. That's what made him the GOAT, that drive obsessive drive to be GOAT. And he was extremely clutch. But since he already went all out more so than anyone else, I would have to go with Shaq.

Harison

02-03-2016, 04:58 AM

Unpopular opinion, but Russell just might come out on Top. He always found the way, the ultimate winner. Jordan is right up there as well.

Individual stat wise its either Wilt or Kareem. But they werent pathologically driven winners, and when stakes are the highest, I would rather have MJ or Russell.

3ball

02-03-2016, 05:10 AM

Jordan pretty much went all out, more so than anyone else.

MJ didn't go all-out ALL the time, like in 1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998.. He only went all-out in the years leading up to his 1st championship, and his 1st championship seasons (1991 and 1996), which is why his stats are significantly higher those seasons..

In the other seasons, he conserved in RS and waited until playoffs to turn it on, just like all championship veterans do.

Similarly, Shaq went all-out for 1 year - in 2000 when Phil first arrived - the Lakers had the league's #1 defense that year (the only time in Shaq's 17-year career that his team had a top 6 defense)..

But after he won that first ring, his stats and effort fell off, and the Lakers dropped to the 21st ranked defense in 2001.
.
.

aj1987

02-03-2016, 05:55 AM

Losers, CavsFTL, and 0ball shitposting again.

Ilt was a career choker. Just deal with it. It'll be easier to continue with your lives, if you just accept the fact. WORST Finals and Playoff performer in the top 10. No one else even comes close.

Dr Hawk

02-03-2016, 06:18 AM

aj1987

02-03-2016, 06:20 AM

Kobe is the worst Finals performer in the Top 10
:kobe:

Dr Hawk

02-03-2016, 06:23 AM

:kobe:

1. jordan
2. kareem
3. wilt
4. shaq
5. hakeem
6. duncan
7. magic
8. lebron
9. bird
10. kobe

3ball

02-03-2016, 08:18 AM

Since MJ already went all out more so than anyone else, I would have to go with Shaq.

We HAVE stats from Shaq going all-out (2000) and Jordan going all-out (1991):

JORDAN 1991 REG SEAS: 31.5 ppg.. 60.5 ts.. 125 ORtg.. 31.6 PER.. 0.321 ws/48
O'NEAL. 2000 REG SEAS: 29.7 ppg.. 57.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 30.6 PER.. 0.283 ws/48

(MJ got 5 times the steals, Shaq got 3 times the blk, so they cancel out - so do rebs & assists)

It got better in the playoffs:

JORDAN 1991 PLAYOFFS: 31.1 ppg.. 60.0 ts.. 127 ORtg.. 32.0 PER.. 0.333 ws/48
O'NEAL. 2000 PLAYOFFS: 30.7 ppg.. 55.6 ts.. 114 ORtg.. 30.5 PER.. 0.224 ws/48

And since OP said we're only considering individual dominance and not winning a championship, Jordan's three seasons from 1988-1990 also beat Shaq's 2000 easily:

JORDAN 1988: 35.0 ppg.. 60.3 ts.. 123 ORtg.. 31.7 PER.. 0.308 ws/48
JORDAN 1988: 32.5 ppg.. 61.4 ts.. 123 ORtg.. 31.1 PER.. 0.292 ws/48
JORDAN 1988: 33.6 ppg.. 60.6 ts.. 123 ORtg.. 31.2 PER.. 0.285 ws/48
O'NEAL. 2000: 29.7 ppg.. 57.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 30.6 PER.. 0.283 ws/48

Seriously - take a good look at all those numbers, especially the playoffs - it isn't close..

MJ had 4 straight seasons of 31+ PER and 60+ TS (88'-91') - no other player in history has come close to this, let alone Shaq..
.

La Frescobaldi

02-03-2016, 03:59 PM

If all the greats had one summer to prepare to go all out for one single season during their primes, who would come out on top?

Let's just say that this would be individually the best, not who would win the championship since teams can't be fair.

Of course it is Chamberlain.

All this endless b1tchqueen screaming from clipp is drivel since you already in the OP spoke truth to rings. Those are team accomplishments, and injuries to teammates... in 1968 or in 2010... have never changed any.

If you take out the Big Three though, Wilt, Mike, and Kareem... I'd like to see what a purest full green light season would be like for Bob McAdoo.

jstern

02-03-2016, 04:56 PM

We HAVE stats from Shaq going all-out (2000) and Jordan going all-out (1991):

JORDAN 1991 REG SEAS: 31.5 ppg.. 60.5 ts.. 125 ORtg.. 31.6 PER.. 0.321 ws/48
O'NEAL. 2000 REG SEAS: 29.7 ppg.. 57.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 30.6 PER.. 0.283 ws/48

(MJ got 5 times the steals, Shaq got 3 times the blk, so they cancel out - so do rebs & assists)

It got better in the playoffs:

JORDAN 1991 PLAYOFFS: 31.1 ppg.. 60.0 ts.. 127 ORtg.. 32.0 PER.. 0.333 ws/48
O'NEAL. 2000 PLAYOFFS: 30.7 ppg.. 55.6 ts.. 114 ORtg.. 30.5 PER.. 0.224 ws/48

And since OP said we're only considering individual dominance and not winning a championship, Jordan's three seasons from 1988-1990 also beat Shaq's 2000 easily:

JORDAN 1988: 35.0 ppg.. 60.3 ts.. 123 ORtg.. 31.7 PER.. 0.308 ws/48
JORDAN 1988: 32.5 ppg.. 61.4 ts.. 123 ORtg.. 31.1 PER.. 0.292 ws/48
JORDAN 1988: 33.6 ppg.. 60.6 ts.. 123 ORtg.. 31.2 PER.. 0.285 ws/48
O'NEAL. 2000: 29.7 ppg.. 57.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 30.6 PER.. 0.283 ws/48

Seriously - take a good look at all those numbers, especially the playoffs - it isn't close..

MJ had 4 straight seasons of 31+ PER and 60+ TS (88'-91') - no other player in history has come close to this, let alone Shaq..
.

Assuming that Shaq went all out in 2000, then perhaps Jordan. But did Shaq really go all out? That's the question. I know he went all out on his birthday that year and scored 61 points.