Can one of you PER guys explain how BRAWN's PER was higher than Wade's in 09?

[Akhenaten]

Wade: 30/7.5/5 on 49.1/31.7/76.5 2.2 stls 1.3 blk

BRAWN: 28.4/7.2/7.6 on 48.9/34.4/78 1.7 stls, 1.1 blk

More points, ast, stls, blks and shot better from the field


How is this stuff calculated? I'm assuming defensive rebounds are heavily weighted :confusedshrug:

[JebronLames]

Wade: 30/7.5/5 on 49.1/31.7/76.5 2.2 stls 1.3 blk

BRAWN: 28.4/7.2/7.6 on 48.9/34.4/78 1.7 stls, 1.1 blk

More points, ast, stls, blks and shot better from the field


How is this stuff calculated? I'm assuming defensive rebounds areheavily weighted :confusedshrug:
TS% and probably fewer turnovers

[Young X]

Lebron did it in less minutes and was more efficient (better FT shooting/less turnovers).

[kennethgriffin]

they invented PER to favour lebron


they made it so each extra rebound and assist is like having 5-6 more ppg or some shit


its ridiculous

[SpaceJam]

Wade was robbed.

[sdot_thadon]

Per basketball reference:

All calculations begin with what I am calling unadjusted PER (uPER). The formula is:

uPER = (1 / MP) *
[ 3P
+ (2/3) * AST
+ (2 - factor * (team_AST / team_FG)) * FG
+ (FT *0.5 * (1 + (1 - (team_AST / team_FG)) + (2/3) * (team_AST / team_FG)))
- VOP * TOV
- VOP * DRB% * (FGA - FG)
- VOP * 0.44 * (0.44 + (0.56 * DRB%)) * (FTA - FT)
+ VOP * (1 - DRB%) * (TRB - ORB)
+ VOP * DRB% * ORB
+ VOP * STL
+ VOP * DRB% * BLK
- PF * ((lg_FT / lg_PF) - 0.44 * (lg_FTA / lg_PF) * VOP) ]
Most of the terms in the formula above should be clear, but let me define the less obvious ones:

factor = (2 / 3) - (0.5 * (lg_AST / lg_FG)) / (2 * (lg_FG / lg_FT))
VOP = lg_PTS / (lg_FGA - lg_ORB + lg_TOV + 0.44 * lg_FTA)
DRB% = (lg_TRB - lg_ORB) / lg_TRB

[dubeta]

they invented PER to favour lebron


they made it so each extra rebound and assist is like having 5-6 more ppg or some shit


its ridiculous

LeBron averages more PPG than Kobe in the regular season, playoffs, and finals


Even if you take out rebounds and assists he would still have a higher PER

[dubeta]

To answer OP, its cause Wade was ball dominant with a High Usage, turning everyone into spot up shooters to get his stats


LeBron did his damage in the flow of the game, hence a higher PER

[kennethgriffin]

LeBron averages more PPG than Kobe in the regular season, playoffs, and finals


Even if you take out rebounds and assists he would still have a higher PER


lebron is the ultimate regular season player

his regular season dominance reminds me of wilt in a way


not quite as good obviously. but the expectations of both players based on their great PERs during the laid back easy going part of the year had everyone thinking both guys would end up the GOAT




















and then they both go 2 for 6 and thats the end of that




owell

:lol



and kobes ppg is basically identical to lebrons as a starter

[Marchesk]

Per basketball reference:


All calculations begin with what I am calling unadjusted PER (uPER). The formula is:

uPER = (1 / MP) *
[ 3P
+ (2/3) * AST
+ (2 - factor * (team_AST / team_FG)) * FG
+ (FT *0.5 * (1 + (1 - (team_AST / team_FG)) + (2/3) * (team_AST / team_FG)))
- VOP * TOV
- VOP * DRB% * (FGA - FG)
- VOP * 0.44 * (0.44 + (0.56 * DRB%)) * (FTA - FT)
+ VOP * (1 - DRB%) * (TRB - ORB)
+ VOP * DRB% * ORB
+ VOP * STL
+ VOP * DRB% * BLK
- PF * ((lg_FT / lg_PF) - 0.44 * (lg_FTA / lg_PF) * VOP) ]
Most of the terms in the formula above should be clear, but let me define the less obvious ones:

factor = (2 / 3) - (0.5 * (lg_AST / lg_FG)) / (2 * (lg_FG / lg_FT))
VOP = lg_PTS / (lg_FGA - lg_ORB + lg_TOV + 0.44 * lg_FTA)
DRB% = (lg_TRB - lg_ORB) / lg_TRB



Finally, proof that Lebron > Kobe

[dubeta]

lebron is the ultimate regular season player



:lol


I just said LeBron gets better stats, in the regular season, playoffs, and finals and this idiot talks about lebron being a regular season player :lol

[kennethgriffin]

I just said LeBron gets better stats, in the regular season, playoffs, and finals and this idiot talks about lebron being a regular season player :lol


and i just said




and then they both go 2 for 6 and thats the end of that




owell



:oldlol:

[Akhenaten]

All calculations begin with what I am calling unadjusted PER (uPER). The formula is:

uPER = (1 / MP) *
[ 3P
+ (2/3) * AST
+ (2 - factor * (team_AST / team_FG)) * FG
+ (FT *0.5 * (1 + (1 - (team_AST / team_FG)) + (2/3) * (team_AST / team_FG)))
- VOP * TOV
- VOP * DRB% * (FGA - FG)
- VOP * 0.44 * (0.44 + (0.56 * DRB%)) * (FTA - FT)
+ VOP * (1 - DRB%) * (TRB - ORB)
+ VOP * DRB% * ORB
+ VOP * STL
+ VOP * DRB% * BLK
- PF * ((lg_FT / lg_PF) - 0.44 * (lg_FTA / lg_PF) * VOP) ]
Most of the terms in the formula above should be clear, but let me define the less obvious ones:

factor = (2 / 3) - (0.5 * (lg_AST / lg_FG)) / (2 * (lg_FG / lg_FT))
VOP = lg_PTS / (lg_FGA - lg_ORB + lg_TOV + 0.44 * lg_FTA)
DRB% = (lg_TRB - lg_ORB) / lg_TRB

http://i.imgur.com/8bUHZl3.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v300/Haskel45/4296259705_8c73b02cc6_o.gif

[dhsilv]

TS% and rebounding plus slightly lower turnover rate were slightly offsetting the assists and higher usage (usage generally is a pro in the PER calculation). Also interest is that wade had better steal/block stats that year. does somewhat suprise me the gap but the stats do favor lebron at a glance.

[Akhenaten]

TS% and rebounding plus slightly lower turnover rate were slightly offsetting the assists and higher usage (usage generally is a pro in the PER calculation). Also interest is that wade had better steal/block stats that year. does somewhat suprise me the gap but the stats do favor lebron at a glance.

How is usage calculated, how much/long you possess the ball or how much you shoot/assist it?

This stuff is just sooo convoluted, PER takes already convoluted data (TS% etc.) and convolutes it exponentially.

How is this stuff germane to ANYTHING that happens on a basketball court?

The calculations and values are completely arbitrary and subject to the particular biases on the creator, PER isnt a "stat" at all it's a mathematical theorem.

[dhsilv]

How is usage calculated, how much/long you possess the ball or how much you shoot/assist it?

This stuff is just sooo convoluted, PER takes already convoluted data (TS% etc.) and convolutes it exponentially.

How is this stuff germane to ANYTHING that happens on a basketball court?

The calculations and values are completely arbitrary and subject to the particular biases on the creator, PER isnt a "stat" at all it's a mathematical theorem.

Which usage calculation? There are like 4-5 of them, lol.

There is nothing about "how long" anything is done as it's based on NOTHING but the box scores you already have and see all the time.

Are some parts a bit arbitrary? Yeah, hollinger's usage calculation itself has some weird stuff that seems arbitrary imo.

Is it a math theorm? No. It's a way to rank players and it does a really ****ing good job. It isn't perfect. I assure you with the data we have today, hollinger doesn't even look at it anymore. Though those real advanced data thing are actually complex as hell. PER is pretty damn brilliant but it's not the holy mathy stuff that we have today.

If you don't like it that's fine. I will leave you with this. These kinds of metrics are not designed to rank players. They are designed to predict who will win tomorrow. For all the advanced stuff done, Hollinger's PER based predictions have done very well in predicting future results. They've been really good at it given how much is "arbitrary". I recall reading a thread over and abrmetrics where he beat out the real plus minus stuff in a prediction a few years back (likely before he was a GM so the early days of real plus).

Anyway tl/dr, hollinger's metric works. It worked well enough to get him millions as a decision maker in the nba. Dismissing it seems pretty foolish. It does the job it was intended to do.

[aj1987]

To answer OP, its cause Wade was ball dominant with a High Usage, turning everyone into spot up shooters to get his stats


LeBron did his damage in the flow of the game, hence a higher PER
The Heat averaged fewer jumpers than the Cav's.

[ImKobe]

im guessing because Wade was slightly worse on FTs and turned the ball over more, rebounded less while also playing about a minute more per game.

PER isn't the end of all stats, it merely shows a player's efficiency but we all know efficiency isn't created equal and it doesn't factor in "clutch" play. Plus you look at Wade's team...it's shit compared to what Lebron had that yr. I'm sure he could have been more efficient on a team that was built around his talents, instead he had past-prime Marion, Jermaine O'Neal, young Beasley and Chalmers...basically almost zero help on the offensive end... If Michael Beasley is the 2nd most efficient player on your team you're probably going to be playing from behind at least half of the season. Same reason why prime Kobe never led the league in PER. You have to take some bad shots and force the issue when your team is on the brink of being blown out.

09 Cavs weren't star-studded but they had the right system with a ton of 3pt snipers and good defenders and some decent bigs (varejao, big Z, Ben Wallace) that allowed Lebron to play a more efficient style of basketball, much like the Miami Heat teams he played on.

[eklip]

PER isn't a 'per game' stat.

Look at the per 100 possession statistics:
1) 40.8 pts, 10.9 reb, 10.4 ast, 2.4 stl, 1.6 blk, 4.3 tov (.591 TS%) = 31.7 PER
2) 41.8 pts, 7.0 reb, 10.3 ast, 3.0 stl, 1.9 blk, 4.8 tov (.574 TS%) = 30.4 PER

I think most people would prefer the first stat line without any additional information.

What would you prefer:
+1 pt, +0.6 stl, +0.3 blk
or
+3.9 reb, +0.1 ast, -0.5 tov, +0.17 TS%