Kareem on Dirk: "One trick pony"

[SexSymbol]

How come noone created a thread on this?
Kareem just flat out disrespected a fellow ATG player

[StephHamann]

http://img.memecdn.com/old-man-yells-at-cloud_fb_206827.jpg

[D. Toretto]

Come on, let them old dudes have their fun. No one believes Dirk is a one trick pony lol

[SexSymbol]

Come on, let them old dudes have their fun. No one believes Dirk is a one trick pony lol
apparently kareem does

[D. Toretto]

Do you believe he is?

[JohnMax]

Video of Kareem calling Dirk "One trick pony"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIRr6C62Hzk&t=74m22s

[stalkerforlife]

Dirk never played with the talent Kareem played with.

Cool yourself, old ass racist.

[Asukal]

Coming from a guy who needed 2 ATGs to get it done, real classy..... :rolleyes:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Took that way out of context. He went into far more explanation than what you're posting here. He said Dirk wasn't as dominant as he could of been if he were able to rebound, defend and block shots at an all time great level as well. It was not a knock on Dirk, he was just stating how he wasn't as complete a player as someone like Duncan for instance. Provide the whole source and post the whole quote next time instead of trying to smear top 5 players of all time with deceptive citations.

:coleman:

[keep-itreal]

Yeah it was uncalled for, but he's right.

He's only good at shooting

[SAKOTXA]

Yeah it was uncalled for, but he's right.

He's only good at shooting
You don't dominate teams like OKC, Portland, Lakers, Miami in a single playoff run by just being good at shooting. He's always been an above average rebounder in the playoffs and his quickness was extremely underrated in his younger years.

[brain drain]

Took that way out of context. He went into far more explanation than what you're posting here. He said Dirk wasn't as dominant as he could of been if he were able to rebound, defend and block shots at an all time great level as well. It was not a knock on Dirk, he was just stating how he wasn't as complete a player as someone like Duncan for instance. Provide the whole source and post the whole quote next time instead of trying to smear top 5 players of all time with deceptive citations.

:coleman:


At least the rebound stuff is complete nonsense - Dirk used to be a pretty damn good defensive rebounder, epsecially in the playoffs. He didn't get many offensive rebounds, but that is a result of where he was positioned on offense, so you can't really hold that against him.

Also, Dirk never padded numbers - which is a reason why his playoff numbers didn't drop off in the playoffs and instead increased vs the regular season in quite a few years.

Now, to see if Dirk was a decent rebounder, let's compare Dirk's defensive rebounding against some all time great centers:

Dirk had 6 playoff runs with a DRB% of >= 26.
Duncan had 7.
Shaq had 3.
Hakeem had 5.
David Robinson had 3.

And Kareem?

Kareem had 1 - plus 4 years where (70-73) where DRB% wasn't tracked, so 5 at most.

So Kareem's obviously talking utter, complete nonsense, at least as far as rebounding is concerned. I don't see how anyone can knock Dirk's rebounding considering the role he's played.

[SAKOTXA]

At least the rebound stuff is complete nonsense - Dirk used to be a pretty damn good defensive rebounder, epsecially in the playoffs. He didn't get many offensive rebounds, but that is a result of where he was positioned on offense, so you can't really hold that against him.

Also, Dirk never padded numbers - which is a reason why his playoff numbers didn't drop off in the playoffs and instead increased vs the regular season in quite a few years.

Now, to see if Dirk was a decent rebounder, let's compare Dirk's defensive rebounding against some all time great centers:

Dirk had 6 playoff runs with a DRB% of >= 26.
Duncan had 7.
Shaq had 3.
Hakeem had 5.
David Robinson had 3.

And Kareem?

Kareem had 1 - plus 4 years where (70-73) where DRB% wasn't tracked, so 5 at most.

So Kareem's obviously talking utter, complete nonsense, at least as far as rebounding is concerned. I don't see how anyone can knock Dirk's rebounding considering the role he's played.
Preach :cheers:

[stalkerforlife]

Yeah it was uncalled for, but he's right.

He's only good at shooting

You're right...he's only good at shooting from the post, from deep, from mid-range, from both elbows, with a hand in his face, double teamed, at the rim...

Other than that, he sucks. :lol

[DMV2]

Coming from a guy who needed 2 ATGs to get it done, real classy..... :rolleyes:
True.

Dirk's 2011 title run > any of Kareem's title run

Dirk had midget Barea and near-retirement home Kidd.

[ImKobe]

Coming from a guy who needed 2 ATGs to get it done, real classy..... :rolleyes:

Guess you haven't done enough research to know he carried past-prime Oscar to a championship his 2nd year in the league, beating Wilt's Lakers in the process.

[pastis]

kareem is talking shit, because he is a racist who cant believe that a 7footer revolutionized the PF position.

Dirk was a an above average defender in his prime but people don`t recognize him as a good defender because he is compared to GOAT defensive players like Garnett and Duncan. Most people have never seen Dirk playing defense because he stopped after he won his ring in 2011.
The best example is the Don Nelson era in Dallas. Dirk was close to being the defense anker of these teams although Bradley was the center. The Nelly-ball teams were still good offensivly with Dirk on the bench but fell apart on the defensive end without him.
Some interesting stats.
2002: Mavs 108/Dirk 104 DRtg, leading the team
2003: Mavs 102/Dirk 98 DRtg, 2nd to Bradley (95)
2004: Mavs 107/Dirk 104 DRtg, 2nd to Bradley (102) who only played 12 min
2005: Mavs 104/Dirk 100 DRtg, leading the team

Obviously Dirk was never an all time great defender but his defensive impact is vastly underrated. I don`t believe that any player in history would look like a good defender when he is playing heavy minutes with Nash, Finley, Stackhouse, Walker or Jamison. Dirk had to play center during this era and was asked to offset his teammates defense. I don`t believe Duncan or Garnett would have been much better in the same situation.


actually, Kareem just benefitted from a higher pace / inflated numbers back in the days. if we adjust the pace per 100 possessions, then the defensive rebounding looks like that for their career:
Dirks: 10.1 defensive rebounds per game
Kareem: 9.9 defensive rebounds per game

... and once we reach the playoffs, the gap in defensive rebounding-% is enormous

Dirk PS dREB%: 24.7
Kareem PS dREB%: 18.7

Dirks pace adjusted TOTAL rebounds per game (PS): 13.1 rpg
Kareems pace adjusted TOTAL rebounds per game (PS): 12.1 rpg


that said, Kareem made some really stupid statements back in the days.
doesnt surprise me that he looks at Dirk rebounding numbers in todays era without adjusted for pace. thus he comes to the conclusion that

[Fazotronic]

funny he says he can't rebound while dirk is right behind kareem in def. rebounds.

1. Kevin Garnett 11453
2. Karl Malone* 11406
3. Tim Duncan 11115
4. Robert Parish* 10117
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 9714
6. Moses Malone* 9481
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 9394
8. Dirk Nowitzki 8949
9. Shaquille O'Neal 8890
10. Patrick Ewing* 8855

worst part about it he didn't even answer the question.

[Dragonyeuw]

Took that way out of context. He went into far more explanation than what you're posting here. He said Dirk wasn't as dominant as he could of been if he were able to rebound, defend and block shots at an all time great level as well. It was not a knock on Dirk, he was just stating how he wasn't as complete a player as someone like Duncan for instance. Provide the whole source and post the whole quote next time instead of trying to smear top 5 players of all time with deceptive citations.

:coleman:

If Kareem was to apply that logic objectively, the same could be said of Magic. I mean, Magic was a good rebounder and obviously an offensive maestro, but he wasn't defending or blocking anything. And I doubt he would consider Magic a one trick pony or not a dominant force.

[feyki]

I think old players don't know talking about ball .

[La Frescobaldi]

funny he says he can't rebound while dirk is right behind kareem in def. rebounds.

1. Kevin Garnett 11453
2. Karl Malone* 11406
3. Tim Duncan 11115
4. Robert Parish* 10117
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 9714
6. Moses Malone* 9481
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 9394
8. Dirk Nowitzki 8949
9. Shaquille O'Neal 8890
10. Patrick Ewing* 8855

worst part about it he didn't even answer the question.

you would have to add 4 or 5 years worth to Kareem's tally my friend. They didn't start breaking out types of rebounds until well into his career.
I agree with Laz on this.... Kareem's NBA peak was his first 5 or 7 seasons.... so not only are his numbers higher...... I would think they are much higher.

[La Frescobaldi]

pastis ~ you got the same problem as our buddy FAZ-o-TRONIC namely for Kareem's first several seasons, defensive rebounds were not broken out as an individual stat.

[tpols]

and despite all that, I'd put my money on Dirk to carry a roster farther than Kareem did or could w/o multiple HOFers to carry him.. better intangibles, clutch, better teammate and leader, kareem could probably learn a thing or two from Dirk.

[DCL]

seemed like kareem felt offended when someone compared dirk's fadeaway to his skyhook.

nobody ranks dirk ahead of kareem... not sure why he felt insecure.

but at least kareem's honest. he always says whatever the fk is on his mind, even if he comes across as an asshole. but he'd probably be liked more if he added some humor (like a gilbert arenas) when talking shit. but there's never any humor in his statements.

[dunksby]

and despite all that, I'd put my money on Dirk to carry a roster farther than Kareem did or could w/o multiple HOFers to carry him.. better intangibles, clutch, better teammate and leader, kareem could probably learn a thing or two from Dirk.
Nobody would rank Oscar if Kareem didn't carry him to a title, nobody carried Kareem, tell me what Oscar and Magic won without Kareem? Nada.

[PP34Deuce]

Dirk is the best 6'10 and up scorer ever but rebounding, defense, and blocks was never his game.

He did enough in the other categories that it wasn't a weakness but neither a strength.

He was dominant and could get a shot off on anyone in the league--Something very few players have the ability to do.

One trick pony sounds so negative but some guys are special in one category. NFL's Randy Moss was essentially a one trick pony going deep but no one could stop it.

[Asukal]

Guess you haven't done enough research to know he carried past-prime Oscar to a championship his 2nd year in the league, beating Wilt's Lakers in the process.

Wilt? I've done enough research to know an injured Reed owned that biyatch. KAJ also didn't do shit in the late 70's while being THE most dominant player in the league. He lost with HCA against teams that he shouldn't have lost to. But yeah KAJ is supposed to be the 2nd GOAT, pfffft bs. :whatever:

[Fazotronic]

you would have to add 4 or 5 years worth to Kareem's tally my friend. They didn't start breaking out types of rebounds until well into his career.
I agree with Laz on this.... Kareem's NBA peak was his first 5 or 7 seasons.... so not only are his numbers higher...... I would think they are much higher.

well the pace certainly helped him aswell.
however, i never wanted to imply that dirk is the rebounder kareem was.
but seing dirk this high and then saying he doesn't rebound seems kinda unfair to say the least

[jstern]

I was wondering why there was no link in the original post.

Doesn't sound all that bad, what he said. He said that Dirk has a shot that's pretty hard to beat, and moving on from that point he said that Dirk would basically be higher all time if he did more rebounding, etc.

He doesn't seem like a good communicator in that setting. To prevent miscommunications he should just answer what was asked and not add extra opinions about other aspects.

[Akrazotile]

Dirk never played with the talent Kareem played with.

Cool yourself, old ass racist.


Kareem criticizes everyone. He's a known curmudgeon. Don't see this having anything to do with race.

[miggyme1]

If Kareem was to apply that logic objectively, the same could be said of Magic. I mean, Magic was a good rebounder and obviously an offensive maestro, but he wasn't defending or blocking anything. And I doubt he would consider Magic a one trick pony or not a dominant force.



NEGATIVE

You do understand what kareem was saying right or do you refuse to comprehend it??

He is saying all dirk really focused on was shooting. shooting from anywhere on the court doesn't make you NOT one dimensional. I agree with kareem DIRK could have been a lot better. He could of totally been what he was plus what kg/duncan was. EASILY.....BUT you all will say im hating and will fail to look at it in that light. Dirk could have EASILY finished his career as the SECOND or THIRD BEST PLAYER TO EVER PLAY THE GAME...he had it all.....the jumper,the size, earlier in his career he had the athleticism...no he wasn't elite athletically but he could move like a kg/Duncan.

[Segatti]

There are only seven players in NBA history with 10000 points, 10000 rebounds, 1000 blocks, 1000 steals and 3000 assists. Dirk is one of them.

[Akrazotile]

NEGATIVE

You do understand what kareem was saying right or do you refuse to comprehend it??

He is saying all dirk really focused on was shooting. shooting from anywhere on the court doesn't make you NOT one dimensional. I agree with kareem DIRK could have been a lot better. He could of totally been what he was plus what kg/duncan was. EASILY.....BUT you all will say im hating and will fail to look at it in that light. Dirk could have EASILY finished his career as the SECOND or THIRD BEST PLAYER TO EVER PLAY THE GAME...he had it all.....the jumper,the size, earlier in his career he had the athleticism...no he wasn't elite athletically but he could move like a kg/Duncan.


:wtf:


That's like saying KG and Duncan could have done what Dirk did.

Different guys have different skill sets. KG is a prodigious defender. Duncan is a prodigious low-post player. Dirk is a prodigious shooter. You can't just tell one of them "hey, that other guy is 7 feet tall also, that means you should be able to do anything he does!"

Doesn't work like that. Your comment is absurd, tbh.

[miggyme1]

:wtf:


That's like saying KG and Duncan could have done what Dirk did.

Different guys have different skill sets. KG is a prodigious defender. Duncan is a prodigious low-post player. Dirk is a prodigious shooter. You can't just tell one of them "hey, that other guy is 7 feet tall also, that means you should be able to do anything he does!"

Doesn't work like that. Your comment is absurd, tbh.


NEGATIVE


GREAT SHOOTERS ARE BORN NOT MADE. You can BECOME A GREAT REBOUNDER....YOU CAN BECOME A GREAT DEFENDER. YOU CAN DEVELOP A HIGH IQ FOR THE GAME. Think before you speak next time

[tpols]

He is saying all dirk really focused on was shooting. shooting from anywhere on the court doesn't make you NOT one dimensional. I agree with kareem DIRK could have been a lot better. He could of totally been what he was plus what kg/duncan was. .

wtf.. so I take it you also think Steve Nash couldve been Gary Payton if only he just focused on defense a little more ..?

[Dragonyeuw]

NEGATIVE

You do understand what kareem was saying right or do you refuse to comprehend it??

He is saying all dirk really focused on was shooting. shooting from anywhere on the court doesn't make you NOT one dimensional. I agree with kareem DIRK could have been a lot better. He could of totally been what he was plus what kg/duncan was. EASILY.....BUT you all will say im hating and will fail to look at it in that light. Dirk could have EASILY finished his career as the SECOND or THIRD BEST PLAYER TO EVER PLAY THE GAME...he had it all.....the jumper,the size, earlier in his career he had the athleticism...no he wasn't elite athletically but he could move like a kg/Duncan.

The only person who doesn't seem to understand what was said is you. Again, if Kareem is critiquing Dirk's game by saying he was deficient in certain categories, it is absolutely valid and relevant to point out that his own GOAT level teammate lacked some of those deficiencies. Now, to be clear I'm not saying that Dirk is on Magic's level of greatness, obviously he's in that 18-25 range as a player. But to say that Dirk didn't have a dominant career is ridiculous, I don't give a **** if Kareem is the one making the comment.

Players have different skillsets and aptitudes. Can Duncan shoot like Dirk? Nope. Can Dirk defend like Duncan? So with a little more focus, Dirk could have been everything he was with KG/Duncan's defensive impact? So if KG/Duncan focused a little more, they would be on Dirk's level as a shooter? Your position is ridiculous. Tell me, how can a guy on track for 30k career points, an MVP, and a championship as the unquestioned driving force not be dominant? The Mavs have basically been in the thick of the western conference for the past 17 years. Who do you think is the catalyst behind that, despite multiple coach and players changes?

[Dragonyeuw]

wtf.. so I take it you also think Steve Nash couldve been Gary Payton if only he just focused on defense a little more ..?

Yep, and with a bit more focus. Rondo can shoot like Curry.

[HOoopCityJones]

This is what they call irony.

Kblaze has said as much about Dirk as well.

[Dragonyeuw]

Think before you speak next time

For humanity's sake, PLEASE take your own advice.

[Lebron23]

OP have taken Kareem's speech out of context. Kareem prepared good all around players, traditional low post players, and solid defensive players.

By the way Kareem should have been a 3x NBA Finals MVP. He was arguably the Lakers best player in the 1980 NBA Finals.

[miggyme1]

wtf.. so I take it you also think Steve Nash couldve been Gary Payton if only he just focused on defense a little more ..?


not a little MORE.


ALOT MORE


I can tell which guys in these threads have played sports and which ones have never played sports a day in their lives. You can become a great defender. You think gary payton was born locking guys down??? NO...DID HE HAVE A BETTER HEAD START THAN MOST???YES MORE THAN LIKELY BUT GREAT DEFENSE IS ALL ABOUT EFFORT AND TECHNIQUE...SOMETHIGN ANYBODY CAN LEARN HOW TO DO. STOP OVERRATING THESE PLAYERS.

COULD STEVE NASH BE A TRASH TALKING BALD HEADED GET IN YOUR FACE TYPE PLAYER????? F*CK NO BUT HE COULD HAVE EASILY BEEN A GREAT TWO WAY PG.

[HOoopCityJones]

OP have taken Kareem's speech out of context. Kareem prepared good all around players, traditional low post players, and solid defensive players.

By the way Kareem should have been a 3x NBA Finals MVP. He was arguably the Lakers best player in the 1980 NBA Finals.

No arguably about it, he was their best player until he got hurt before the last game. Then Magic has the performance of any Rookie's career and he won a FMVP that should've been about an entire series for a single game.

If FMVP is only about one game then people were right that Gasol should've won over Kobe in 2010.....Not like Kobe showed up for the 6 games prior when Gasol didn't or anything.

[miggyme1]

For humanity's sake, PLEASE take your own advice.


EXACTLY...NO DEBATE BECAUSE YOU JUST GOT OWNED. ANYBODY ELSE

[Dragonyeuw]

EXACTLY...NO DEBATE BECAUSE YOU JUST GOT OWNED. ANYBODY ELSE

:roll: This fvucking cvunt. You haven't spouted anything but BS on this page, easily debunked by everyone else on this page.

[Akrazotile]

not a little MORE.


ALOT MORE


I can tell which guys in these threads have played sports and which ones have never played sports a day in their lives. You can become a great defender. You think gary payton was born locking guys down??? NO...DID HE HAVE A BETTER HEAD START THAN MOST???YES MORE THAN LIKELY BUT GREAT DEFENSE IS ALL ABOUT EFFORT AND TECHNIQUE...SOMETHIGN ANYBODY CAN LEARN HOW TO DO. STOP OVERRATING THESE PLAYERS.

COULD STEVE NASH BE A TRASH TALKING BALD HEADED GET IN YOUR FACE TYPE PLAYER????? F*CK NO BUT HE COULD HAVE EASILY BEEN A GREAT TWO WAY PG.



Dude, youre wrong.

If every player puts an equal effort into defense, then there will still be guys who have naturally longer arms to block shots and disrupt passing lanes, guys with stronger cavs and quads who can crouch down and glide side to side more easily, some guys just naturally read offensive players body language and anticipate their intentions better.

Youre speaking in cliches a coach would tell a middle school bball camp. "Just try your best and you can be as good as anybody!"

It's not how it works my friend. Some people have natural advantages. Some people are just really good at particular things. Thats why not only Steve Nash isnt as good as GP on defense, but the vast majority of guards in history arent. And many of them worked hard. But guys who separate themselves at the very top level usually have built-in advantages. Thinking every NBA player has the ability to be an equal defender, shooter, rebounder as every other player is just... Ridiculous.

[Fazotronic]

NEGATIVE

You do understand what kareem was saying right or do you refuse to comprehend it??

He is saying all dirk really focused on was shooting. shooting from anywhere on the court doesn't make you NOT one dimensional. I agree with kareem DIRK could have been a lot better. He could of totally been what he was plus what kg/duncan was. EASILY.....BUT you all will say im hating and will fail to look at it in that light. Dirk could have EASILY finished his career as the SECOND or THIRD BEST PLAYER TO EVER PLAY THE GAME...he had it all.....the jumper,the size, earlier in his career he had the athleticism...no he wasn't elite athletically but he could move like a kg/Duncan.


wow. i don't even know were to begin.

[Dragonyeuw]

wow. i don't even know were to begin.

It's best you don't. I already feel like a few brain cells died talking to that moron.

[miggyme1]

It's best you don't. I already feel like a few brain cells died talking to that moron.


you didn't talk you went into attack mode because you have no argument. TYPICAL

[ArbitraryWater]

Offensively playing out on the perimeter..

7th most defensive rebounds in NBA history, one of only 7 players ever with 10.000+ defensive rebounds (soon), has 3 postseason runs of 10+ defensive rebounds, peaking out at 11 (Moses Malone has 1, Howard has 3, Rodman has 0, Barkley has 2, Malone has 2, none of who peaked out at 11, Duncan has 4, Garnett has 4, Kareem has 4), from 2001-2009 he averaged 11.0 rebounds a game in the playoffs, not one year under 10 besides his rookie campaign, and from 2002-2008 he averaged 11.5 ~ 12 rebounds a game, peaking at 13.1.

[miggyme1]

Dude, youre wrong.

If every player puts an equal effort into defense, then there will still be guys who have naturally longer arms to block shots and disrupt passing lanes, guys with stronger cavs and quads who can crouch down and glide side to side more easily, some guys just naturally read offensive players body language and anticipate their intentions better.

Youre speaking in cliches a coach would tell a middle school bball camp. "Just try your best and you can be as good as anybody!"

It's not how it works my friend. Some people have natural advantages. Some people are just really good at particular things. Thats why not only Steve Nash isnt as good as GP on defense, but the vast majority of guards in history arent. And many of them worked hard. But guys who separate themselves at the very top level usually have built-in advantages. Thinking every NBA player has the ability to be an equal defender, shooter, rebounder as every other player is just... Ridiculous.


just try your best and you can be as good as anybody??


Do you know the difference between motivation and hard work???

Im asking a serious question. What you stated is a COACH MOTIVATING A GROUP OF SMALL CHILDREN TO PLAY AS HARD AS THEY CAN RIGHT???

STEVE NASH IS A GROWN MAN WHO WORKED HARD AT HIS CRAFT...AND HE DECIDED TO FOCUS 99 PERCENT OF HIS TIME ON OFFENSE.

I don't understand how you can sit here with a straight face and put a limit on a players ability when we have seen players like KOBE,WADE,JORDAN, ETC DEVELOP GREAT POST GAMES. PLAYERS LIKE ARIZA,BRUCE BOWEN ETC BECOME BETTER SHOOTERS. You cant control your wingspan or height or anything that's NATURALLY GIVEN....WHY YOU THINK CURRY IS SO F*CKING BEAST RIGHT NOW?????? YOU ARE BORN A GREAT F*CKING SHOOTER..WE WILL PROLLY NEVER SEE ANOTHER PLAYER LIKE HIM BUT DID HE F*CKING HAVE THE HANDLES HE HAS NOW WHEN HE FIRST ENTERED THE LEAGUE???????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? F*CK NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.....HOW DID HE GET THEM?????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????? HE F*CKING TRAINED. ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE PEOPLE. F*CK. BUT WAIT NO YOU GONNA TELL ME YOU NEED LONG ARMS OR SOME BULLSH*T TO BE A GREAT BALL HANDLER. SMH

SMH IM DONE ARGUING BECAUSE ITS EVIDENT NOBODY IN THIS THREAD HAS EVER PLAYED ANY SPORTS BESIDES DRIVEWAY BBALL ON A 6 FOOT GOAL.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If Kareem was to apply that logic objectively, the same could be said of Magic. I mean, Magic was a good rebounder and obviously an offensive maestro, but he wasn't defending or blocking anything. And I doubt he would consider Magic a one trick pony or not a dominant force.

Don't get it twisted, nobody that's watched Dirk believes he is "one-dimensional". Using Magic as your example is flawed though because he's celebrated for playmaking AND scoring, that plus he was a triple-double machine.

With the exception of hardcore basketball fans, many believe Dirk's just an efficient Carmelo Anthony. They're definitely wrong however Magic would be the wrong player to contrast. Playing one side of the floor doesn't make a player one-dimensional unless we alter the interpretation.

[Dragonyeuw]

you didn't talk you went into attack mode because you have no argument. TYPICAL

You're giving off fumes, your retared post has been debunked at least 3 times now. Go play in a minefield or something.

[miggyme1]

You're giving off fumes, your retared post has been debunked at least 3 times now. Go play in a minefield or something.


STILL IN ATTACK MODE AND HASNT REFUTED ONE THING I SAID. TYPICAL ISH POSTER

[ArbitraryWater]

Don't get it twisted, nobody that's watched Dirk believes he is "one-dimensional". Using Magic as your example is flawed though because he's celebrated for playmaking AND scoring, that plus he was a triple-double machine.

With the exception of hardcore basketball fans, many believe Dirk's just an efficient Carmelo Anthony. They're definitely wrong however Magic would be the wrong player to contrast. Playing one side of the floor doesn't make a player one-dimensional unless we alter the interpretation.

I doubt it, that doesnt seem to be the case anymore nowadays, wherejust about everyone ranks him top 20

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I doubt it, that doesnt seem to be the case anymore nowadays, wherejust about everyone ranks him top 20

It was for a long time. Personally I never agreed with it though.

Dirk played some defense and was always a VERY good rebounder, thus never one-dimensional.

[Dragonyeuw]

Don't get it twisted, nobody that's watched Dirk believes he is "one-dimensional". Using Magic as your example is flawed though because he's celebrated for playmaking AND scoring, that plus he was a triple-double machine.

With the exception of hardcore basketball fans, many believe Dirk's just an efficient Carmelo Anthony. They're definitely wrong however Magic would be the wrong player to contrast. Playing one side of the floor doesn't make a player one-dimensional unless we alter the interpretation.

Fair enough, but my main point is saying Dirk didn't have a dominant career( Kareem's comment) because he wasn't a great defender is ridiculous.

Hell, the guy is 25 and 10 and 58% TS in the playoffs, at the highest level of competition he's a proven efficient and elite scorer and rebounder. I just find Kareem's assertion here way off-base. As far as I'm concerned, Dirk's one of the best building blocks that we've seen.

[IGOTGAME]

I don't see what the big deal is about his comments. Dirk is a top 5 power forward ever. Imp i have him above Malone and Right there with Barkley and KG.

But what stopped him from taking it to the next level was that he didn't have some aspects to his game. He developed a lot of things later in this career but we can't transpose hose attributes to younger Dirk.

I wouldn't call Dirk a one trick pony but I do wish he developed that toughness and back to the basket game earlier in his career

[Dragonyeuw]

STILL IN ATTACK MODE AND HASNT REFUTED ONE THING I SAID. TYPICAL ISH POSTER

Give us something worth refuting. And posting in caplocks doesn't make you look any less wrong about basically everything you've said.

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't see what the big deal is about his comments. Dirk is a top 5 power forward ever. Imp i have him above Malone and Right there with Barkley and KG.

But what stopped him from taking it to the next level was that he didn't have some aspects to his game. He developed a lot of things later in this career but we can't transpose hose attributes to younger Dirk.

I wouldn't call Dirk a one trick pony but I do wish he developed that toughness and back to the basket game earlier in his career

:rolleyes:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Fair enough, but my main point is saying Dirk didn't have a dominant career( Kareem's comment) because he wasn't a great defender is ridiculous.

Hell, the guy is 25 and 10 and 58% TS in the playoffs, at the highest level of competition he's a proven efficient and elite scorer and rebounder. I just find Kareem's assertion here way off-base. As far as I'm concerned, Dirk's one of the best building blocks that we've seen.

Absolutely. Not the first time a legend has claimed something dopey, and it wont be the last.

To Kareem's credit, he explained his reasoning and it wasn't some "racist" one-liner. OP took his words somewhat outta context, despite them being off-base.

[IGOTGAME]

:rolleyes:

So you think Dirk is the best player of all time ? Because the guy who said that has an argument.

[kennethgriffin]

At least the rebound stuff is complete nonsense - Dirk used to be a pretty damn good defensive rebounder, epsecially in the playoffs. He didn't get many offensive rebounds, but that is a result of where he was positioned on offense, so you can't really hold that against him.

Also, Dirk never padded numbers - which is a reason why his playoff numbers didn't drop off in the playoffs and instead increased vs the regular season in quite a few years.

Now, to see if Dirk was a decent rebounder, let's compare Dirk's defensive rebounding against some all time great centers:

Dirk had 6 playoff runs with a DRB% of >= 26.
Duncan had 7.
Shaq had 3.
Hakeem had 5.
David Robinson had 3.

And Kareem?

Kareem had 1 - plus 4 years where (70-73) where DRB% wasn't tracked, so 5 at most.

So Kareem's obviously talking utter, complete nonsense, at least as far as rebounding is concerned. I don't see how anyone can knock Dirk's rebounding considering the role he's played.


this is why nobody trusts analytics


dirk is not a great rebounder.


and kareem was a great man defender, help defender and blocked shots


he also averaged double digit rebounds 12 times.


dirk ..... 0 times






dirk truly was a 1 trick pony.

cant defend

cant rebound

cant pass

cant handle

no hook shot

no inside moves

no post moves



just a fade and a three...





dirk is overrated. kareem called this shit. i believe him... hes not biased either. he said duncan had a better career than kobe just seconds before saying dirks a 1 trick bum


he gave him credit and said hes very valuable though and allot of teams need a 1 trick bum.



so there

[miggyme1]

Give us something worth refuting. And posting in caplocks doesn't make you look any less wrong about basically everything you've said.


GIVE US SOMETHING WORTH REFUTING????

FIRST YOU SAID 3 OTHER POSTERS HAVE DEBUNKED MY STATEMENTS NOW ITS GIVE US SOMETHING TO REFUTE??? HMMMM INTERESTING.



ANOTHER ISH POSTER DESTROYED.

[miggyme1]

this is why nobody trusts analytics


dirk is not a great rebounder.


and kareem was a great man defender, help defender and blocked shots


he also averaged double digit rebounds 12 times.


dirk ..... 0 times







dirk truly was a 1 trick pony.

cant defend

cant rebound

cant pass

cant handle

no hook shot

no inside moves

no post moves



just a fade and a three...





dirk is overrated. kareem called this shit. i believe him... hes not biased either. he said duncan had a better career than kobe just seconds before saying dirks a 1 trick bum


he gave him credit and said hes very valuable though and allot of teams need a 1 trick bum.



so there


:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:


SOMEONE GETS IT

[Dragonyeuw]

GIVE US SOMETHING WORTH REFUTING????

FIRST YOU SAID 3 OTHER POSTERS HAVE DEBUNKED MY STATEMENTS NOW ITS GIVE US SOMETHING TO REFUTE??? HMMMM INTERESTING.



ANOTHER ISH POSTER DESTROYED.

Yes, we debunked the shit you stated earlier. We're waiting on a decent argument that can actually be refuted. Otherwise, you just look more ignorant with each post.

[Long Duck Dong]

Kareem is mildly racist but big hearted as well, he didn't mean to disrespect Dirk's game like some are taking it.

[iamgine]

Steve Nash did try pretty hard on defense. Anyone watching him play can see he's not just winging it on defense. It's just he's really bad against some types of players. If he plays in the YMCA, he'd be locking dudes down.

[miggyme1]

Yes, we debunked the shit you stated earlier. We're waiting on a decent argument that can actually be refuted. Otherwise, you just look more ignorant with each post.


DESTROYED

:sleeping :sleeping

[navy]

this is why nobody trusts analytics


dirk is not a great rebounder.


and kareem was a great man defender, help defender and blocked shots


he also averaged double digit rebounds 12 times.


dirk ..... 0 times






dirk truly was a 1 trick pony.

cant defend

cant rebound

cant pass

cant handle

no hook shot

no inside moves

no post moves



just a fade and a three...





dirk is overrated. kareem called this shit. i believe him... hes not biased either. he said duncan had a better career than kobe just seconds before saying dirks a 1 trick bum


he gave him credit and said hes very valuable though and allot of teams need a 1 trick bum.



so thereFirst time Ive ever agreed with Kenneth. Not that Dirk literally has no tricks, but his shooting is what makes him. For a 7 footer his defense really is not notable. And neither are his other skills. He is perhaps the GOAT shooter of all time though, so even with one trick he's a top 20 player of all time. But will always be overrated all time cause of his one championship.

[HOoopCityJones]

First time Ive ever agreed with Kenneth. Not that Dirk literally has no tricks, but his shooting is what makes him. For a 7 footer his defense really is not notable. And neither are his other skills. He is perhaps the GOAT shooter of all time though, so even with one trick he's a top 20 player of all time. But will always be overrated all time cause of his one championship.

I think it's more about who he went through that year. Beat a defending champ Lakers despite them being on their last legs, he effectively ended that dynasty. Beat The young stud Thunder Team too if I'm not mistaken, then followed it up by beating the Collusion Heatles in the Finals, thus rectifying his 06 Finals.

[miggyme1]

I think it's more about who he went through that year. Beat a defending champ Lakers despite them being on their last legs, he effectively ended that dynasty. Beat The young stud Thunder Team too if I'm not mistaken, then followed it up by beating the Collusion Heatles in the Finals, thus rectifying his 06 Finals.


don't forget about the blazers in the first round..everybody had the blazers winning that series.

[navy]

I think it's more about who he went through that year. Beat a defending champ Lakers despite them being on their last legs, he effectively ended that dynasty. Beat The young stud Thunder Team too if I'm not mistaken, then followed it up by beating the Collusion Heatles in the Finals, thus rectifying his 06 Finals.
Yeah, Im not trying to say he isnt good. He won and deserved that ring. But none of those teams were at their peak. That one ring really doesnt mean we can ignore the years he lost, like 07 his mvp season to golden state in the first round.

[brain drain]

Yeah, Im not trying to say he isnt good. He won and deserved that ring. But none of those teams were at their peak. That one ring really doesnt mean we can ignore the years he lost, like 07 his mvp season to golden state in the first round.
The only reason you say "none of these teams were at their peak" is because Dirk and the Mavs beat them.

[navy]

The only reason you say "none of these teams were at their peak" is because Dirk and the Mavs beat them.
Heat won 58 games, Thunder won 55, Lakers won 57, Blazers won 48.

Stop being silly, that wasnt the peak for any of those teams. Well maybe the Blazers....

[miggyme1]

Heat won 58 games, Thunder won 55, Lakers won 57, Blazers won 48.

Stop being silly, that wasnt the peak for any of those teams. Well maybe the Blazers....


wins defines a teams peak? hmmmmmmmm

[navy]

wins defines a teams peak? hmmmmmmmm
Usually.

[Pointguard]

Video of Kareem calling Dirk "One trick pony"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIRr6C62Hzk&t=74m22s
Nobody wants to address the video which comes off quite different from the OP. Kareem said "If he could have shot better,rebounded and play defense and block shots better, but he was "MORE" like a one trick Pony but his great shooting you want guys like that. I'm not saying he lacked value but you want guys who are doing more on the court rather than just shoot the ball.

He was MORE like a one trick pony. And he sure could have done more on the court. I've argued that Durant and Curry do a lot more because they are more creative and have better ball control. If Dirk had other dimensions to his game yes, he's more dominant. The better argument is what are the third and fourth tricks on that Pony??? Would they have made him more dominant. Yes, they would have.

[warriorfan]

Nobody wants to address the video which comes off quite different from the OP. Kareem said "If he could have shot better,rebounded and play defense and block shots better, but he was "MORE" like a one trick Pony but his great shooting you want guys like that. I'm not saying he lacked value but you want guys who are doing more on the court rather than just shoot the ball.

He was MORE like a one trick pony. And he sure could have done more on the court. I've argued that Durant and Curry do a lot more because they are more creative and have better ball control. If Dirk had other dimensions to his game yes, he's more dominant. The better argument is what are the third and fourth tricks on that Pony??? Would they have made him more dominant. Yes, they would have.

your post was almost on point here but it ended up being stupid AF

that is what is called a backhanded complement and it was what Kareem was doing here

[La Frescobaldi]

Nobody wants to address the video which comes off quite different from the OP. Kareem said "If he could have shot better,rebounded and play defense and block shots better, but he was "MORE" like a one trick Pony but his great shooting you want guys like that. I'm not saying he lacked value but you want guys who are doing more on the court rather than just shoot the ball.

He was MORE like a one trick pony. And he sure could have done more on the court. I've argued that Durant and Curry do a lot more because they are more creative and have better ball control. If Dirk had other dimensions to his game yes, he's more dominant. The better argument is what are the third and fourth tricks on that Pony??? Would they have made him more dominant. Yes, they would have.

dirk in his days was better than durant.

[Pointguard]

your post was almost on point here but it ended up being stupid AF

that is what is called a backhanded complement and it was what Kareem was doing here
People were taking it literal as the OP said it and not as Kareem said it. Of course, you are too stupid to know the value of looking at the original source, which is what my post was about. And still you didn't look at the video after I told you the value of it. You start off stupid and get dumber as the thread progresses.

And don't think people can tell that you can't refute things or back up what you say.

[warriorfan]

just try your best and you can be as good as anybody??


Do you know the difference between motivation and hard work???

Im asking a serious question. What you stated is a COACH MOTIVATING A GROUP OF SMALL CHILDREN TO PLAY AS HARD AS THEY CAN RIGHT???

STEVE NASH IS A GROWN MAN WHO WORKED HARD AT HIS CRAFT...AND HE DECIDED TO FOCUS 99 PERCENT OF HIS TIME ON OFFENSE.

I don't understand how you can sit here with a straight face and put a limit on a players ability when we have seen players like KOBE,WADE,JORDAN, ETC DEVELOP GREAT POST GAMES. PLAYERS LIKE ARIZA,BRUCE BOWEN ETC BECOME BETTER SHOOTERS. You cant control your wingspan or height or anything that's NATURALLY GIVEN....WHY YOU THINK CURRY IS SO F*CKING BEAST RIGHT NOW?????? YOU ARE BORN A GREAT F*CKING SHOOTER..WE WILL PROLLY NEVER SEE ANOTHER PLAYER LIKE HIM BUT DID HE F*CKING HAVE THE HANDLES HE HAS NOW WHEN HE FIRST ENTERED THE LEAGUE???????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? F*CK NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.....HOW DID HE GET THEM?????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????? HE F*CKING TRAINED. ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE PEOPLE. F*CK. BUT WAIT NO YOU GONNA TELL ME YOU NEED LONG ARMS OR SOME BULLSH*T TO BE A GREAT BALL HANDLER. SMH

SMH IM DONE ARGUING BECAUSE ITS EVIDENT NOBODY IN THIS THREAD HAS EVER PLAYED ANY SPORTS BESIDES DRIVEWAY BBALL ON A 6 FOOT GOAL.

didn't even read this post but

:roll:

[Pointguard]

dirk in his days was better than durant.
My point, which was clear as day, was that Durant does more. Durant passes, scores more, penetrates better, defends better, rebounds his position better. But I am curious, what are you saying Dirk does better?

[miggyme1]

didn't even read this post but

:roll:

yet you responded

:roll:

[Im Still Ballin]

Brace for the DMAVS incoming

[miggyme1]

Brace for the DMAVS incoming


oh GOD NO

[CavaliersFTW]

What he said wasn't untrue.

Dominant shooter with an unstoppable shot? Check

Not a dominant rebounder

Not a dominant defender

etc

All he said was that Dirk wasn't dominant at anything but that shot and had he been he could have been an even greater player.

[Kblaze8855]

When you listen to the wholething its not coming off nearly as badly as people are making it out to be. And I never really understood the people who hate on Kareem. He contended for like....16 years...went to 10 finals....I think 15 conference finals...won 6 rings...and led the playoffs in scoring 5 times including a title run at 36. Finals MVP at 38 dropping games of 30/17/8/3 blocks on the best front court of all time. But people want to focus on the 4 years he didnt contend?

Yea...they lost in 1977. And he put up 36/18/4 blocks/4 assists and 2 steals a game on 61% shooting in the playoffs. He had 40/19/9 blocks, 28/14/7/4, 41/18/3, 45/18/3/3, and 43/20/3 in 5 straight games. And dont go thinking I cut it off because he had a bad game then. His next game was a game 7 win where he had 36/26/4 blocks.

Yes they then lost to the champion blazers....but Kareem put up 36/18 for the series(with 21/20/8/8 in foul trouble one game) and this is the recap of the "battle" between he and Walton from Snapper Jones...who was a former blazer(as recently as the season before so he knew the players) and was calling the game for them during that series...so he watched every second of it...as a Blazer employee and fan. His opinion:



"What battles? Bill lost them all. Bill Walton got his fanny kicked by Abdul-Jabbar. Kareem had no team around him. Portland killed the Lakers in the backcourt. But Abdul-Jabbar was still Abdul-Jabbar. He was great."


Hes playing with Cazzie Russell, Kermit Washington, Earl Tatum, and Lucius Allen. And 2 of them went down before the playoffs. Ive read that Maurice lucas was outrebounding Tatum like 50-12 at one point just killing him on the offensive boards getting second chance points.

Really...what more was he supposed to do?

Bill Walton himself has said Kareem was destroying him. That the battles were so one sided he would be riding his bike furious thinking "Jabbar! Jabbar!" with every pump of his legs trying to climb a hill. They respected eachother and Walton no doubt contributed to his role players outplaying Kareems....he was that kind of leader. Just being fair there....but Kareem couldnt be realistically expected to do more. Ive seen Walton mention that Kareem could have scored 50 on him every game if he chose to.

But its Kareems fault his broken down team didnt beat what was pretty much the 70s version of todays Spurs if Duncan were in his prime?



74 he puts up 33/12/5 in the finals on the Bucks and loses. He went hard the whole series. Game 6...down 1....double OT....8 seconds left....lose and go home?






http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Kareem-Abdul-Jabbar-Hook-Shot-Game-Winner.gif



^point 34 and among the clutchest shots in basketball history.


Force game 7. Where he came out killing it with I think 17 points in the first....im told they started doubling him off the ball and he only so much as touched it 5 more times before the 4th quarter. Got 3 shots up. What did they do around him while he was doubled? Not shit. They scored 87 points. One of the few times they were held under 90 that season. Oscar on his last legs put up 6 and 11 on 2/13 shooting then retired. His other 2 best players were in foul trouble whole game. One fouled out with 14 points the other ended with 5 fouls and 1 point. Story is....Kareem didnt carry them. He had 26/13 in the mild blowout....but nobody else did shit. And 26/13 isnt considered enough for him....even facing doubles on and off the ball.


75 they miss the playoffs when he got hurt. Record was him was better than the 4th seed.


He puts up 28/17/5 4 blocks and 2 steals a game...its his fault they didnt do shit in 76? He dropped 48/24 vs Walton and lost. The players voted him MVP that season....despite missing the playoffs. Maybe because his #2 was an older Goodrich past his final all star years and he was playing with people like Corky Calhoun(Corky Calhoun!) and Cornell Warner. He was putting up 37/19 the whole second half of the season some of those years they didnt win.....


Its his fault that his backcourt couldnt guard Gus Williams in 78 and 79? Or is he supposed to put up 28/13/4/4 as he did those two playoffs and guard the leagues best backcourt?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxUx01TrtfM


What is Kareem supposed to do about Gus Williams that game?


Im not saying none of his teams had talent the years he didnt win(he had some young guys who would blossom elsewhere)....im saying....Kareem was playing on too high a level to blame him for losses when virtually nobody ever outplayed him. That people even harp on the few bad years of a guy who made 10 finals and won 6 is amazing to begin with. He was the best player on at least....3 title teams. And the finals MVP on another.

He did too much to justify trying to poke holes in his career because destroying some of the best centers ever wasnt enough to drag guys you never heard of past NBA champions......

He was kicking everyones ass and nobody playing against him was holding his teams few poor seasons against him. Why do people who didnt see a game of it do it 40 years later?

[Fazotronic]

What he said wasn't untrue.

Dominant shooter with an unstoppable shot? Check

Not a dominant rebounder

Not a dominant defender

etc

All he said was that Dirk wasn't dominant at anything but that shot and had he been he could have been an even greater player.


that's what you think he said and maybe he meant it but he clearly said dirk didn't have a dominant career period.
now you add in the fact that the question was just about the shot being one of the most unguardable in history and he barely mentions it but goes on about how much holes he has in his game....?
that sounds pretty much like a backhanded compliment whether it was his intention or not.

[RoseCity07]

Too tired to look into the context but if he's talking about his offensive game then Kareem is an idiot. Dirk has one of the most versatile offensive games ever. He could shoot threes, post up, drive, hit the mid range, pull up in transition, and he was a 90% free throw shooter.

That's is the opposite of one-trick pony.

[DMAVS41]

Too tired to look into the context but if he's talking about his offensive game then Kareem is an idiot. Dirk has one of the most versatile offensive games ever. He could shoot threes, post up, drive, hit the mid range, pull up in transition, and he was a 90% free throw shooter.

That's is the opposite of one-trick pony.

Exactly.

Unless we are just talking...offense in total is the "one trick"...then the comments make no sense.

Dirk is one of the most versatile and dominant offensive players ever. He's elite without the ball spotting up, he's elite in the pick and roll game, elite in the post, elite midrange game, and has one of the best turnover rates for usage in NBA history.

Very few players in NBA history had as a complete offensive game as Dirk.

His rebounding was also fine...not sure why he gets heat for that. He played far away from the basket on offense so he never got a lot of tip ins or boards off his own misses like many other bigs did. And, as it has been pointed out, he was a very good defensive rebounder.

Dirk's versatility on offense is severely under-rated here.

But again...only ignorant people call Dirk..."just a shooter"...

Not sure what Kareem was getting at though...don't really care.

[CavaliersFTW]

Too tired to look into the context but if he's talking about his offensive game then Kareem is an idiot. Dirk has one of the most versatile offensive games ever. He could shoot threes, post up, drive, hit the mid range, pull up in transition, and he was a 90% free throw shooter.

That's is the opposite of one-trick pony.
That isn't what he said.

Watch what he said before you try to comment on it, is that too much to ask?

[kamil]

That isn't what he said.

Watch what he said before you try to comment on it, is that too much to ask?

Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

[ScalsFan21]

I listened to it and it came off kind of disrespectful even though he said he didn't mean it that way. Almost everyone who watches the NBA considers Dirk "on that level" that Kareem kinda seemed to be hinting that he wasn't at, and the most obvious part of the disrespect is the fact that he pretty much didn't even answer the question so he could take things slightly off topic to make that point.

Dirk may not be Kareem all-time, but I don't think this is a "that's not what he said, you gotta see the fuuuuuull quote, yo" situation since actually watching him say it doesn't make it seem any less of a shot at Dirk IMO.

[miggyme1]

I listened to it and it came off kind of disrespectful even though he said he didn't mean it that way. Almost everyone who watches the NBA considers Dirk "on that level" that Kareem kinda seemed to be hinting that he wasn't at, and the most obvious part of the disrespect is the fact that he pretty much didn't even answer the question so he could take things slightly off topic to make that point.

Dirk may not be Kareem all-time, but I don't think this is a "that's not what he said, you gotta see the fuuuuuull quote, yo" situation since actually watching him say it doesn't make it seem any less of a shot at Dirk IMO.


what does kareem gain by "HATING" on dirk??? wtf does he gain???

kareem has the better career,more rings,was the better player overall. so tell me WHAT DOES KAREEM GAIN BY GOING OUT OF HIS WAY TO "HATE" ON DIRK????

I GUESS WHEN SHAQ WAS TELLING DWIGHT HE NEEDS TO AVERAGE 28 AND 15 TO BE GREAT THAT WAS HATE TOO?????????????

IM LISTENING. BUT NOBODY IS GONNA REFUTE THAT....THEY JUST GONNA SAY THEY DID AND PERSONALLY ATTACK YOU CUZ THATS ALL YOU BUMS CAN DO ON HERE.

[Crimsonrain777]

I was wondering why there was no link in the original post.

Doesn't sound all that bad, what he said. He said that Dirk has a shot that's pretty hard to beat, and moving on from that point he said that Dirk would basically be higher all time if he did more rebounding, etc.

He doesn't seem like a good communicator in that setting. To prevent miscommunications he should just answer what was asked and not add extra opinions about other aspects.

he shouldve left out the one trick pony part. it has such a strong negative connotation attached to it which is something someone in his position should know. it felt a little disrespectful to me. it's like he was implying that that was the only thing Dirk was good for with the remark

[miggyme1]

I would be surprised to see Kareem ever come out with a positive comment about a white player.

He is one of those black people, who has a race agenda towards everything. And isn't sneaky about it either.

If a guy like Kevin Love had the same views as him but the reverse, they would be absolutely crucified.


KEVIN LOVE ISNT A LEGEND

ARGUMENT NOT VALID.

[TonyMontana]

I would be surprised to see Kareem ever come out with a positive comment about a white player.

He is one of those black people, who has a race agenda towards everything. And isn't sneaky about it either. One of those retards who converted to Islam, a culture that to this day considers blacks animals all to "get back at the white man and lose his slave name" which was ironically the first culture to actually abolish slavery.

If a guy like Kevin Love had the same views as him but the reverse, they would be absolutely crucified.

[TommyGriffin]

KEVIN LOVE ISNT A LEGEND

ARGUMENT NOT VALID.

Kevin Love has the most consecutive double doubles since post ABA/NBA merger. Kevin Love won a rebounding title while putting up 20 points per game. Kevin Love is a legend.

[SexSymbol]

Dirk's handles are very underrated.

[FKAri]

He's right...Doesn't mean Dirk was bad. Hell if your one trick is good enough you could become the GOAT being a one trick pony. The term just has negative connotations like it's inverse, jack of all trades. Except jack of all trades doesn't imply that you're mediocre at everything it actually means it.

That being said, Dirk didn't win until he learned how to pass out of the post and how to not let smaller guys bully him out of the post. So he did add those things to his game but he wasn't all time great at those things.

Kareem says it like it is. Most athletes just beat around the bush and play politics. He'll give you the good with the bad and people will hang onto the bad and call him salty.

[Pointguard]

I would be surprised to see Kareem ever come out with a positive comment about a white player.

He is one of those black people, who has a race agenda towards everything. And isn't sneaky about it either. One of those retards who converted to Islam, a culture that to this day considers blacks animals all to "get back at the white man and lose his slave name" which was ironically the first culture to actually abolish slavery.

If a guy like Kevin Love had the same views as him but the reverse, they would be absolutely crucified.
If he rebounded better and played better defense or blocked more shots he would have been viewed as more dominant? You guys are doing everything but looking at the statement from Kareem. Most great PF's and 7 footers get slammed for that as there are few big greats in the game like that - Dirk is like the only one. Barkley gets it for his lack of defense eventhough he's undersized. Dirk gets two free passes that big men are known for. To criticize him is to be racist is totally absurd. Bird had Dirk's offensive game and more, and was a better defender, and better passer, and better rebounder, was one of the smartest players ever, and a more resourceful player overall. Is this the only way to criticize Dirk?

Is there a way to criticize Dirk? All seven footers would get that rap if they didn't defend or rebound. Up til this century that was the PF's two main responsibilities. In Kareem's time it was unheard of for a great PF to lack in those areas if he wasn't a hustle player. Different if he was a top three scorer every year and he was never that either. But to criticize him is to be called racist. That's crazy.

[DirkNowitzki41]

what a old cvnt

[DirkNowitzki41]

Yeah it was uncalled for, but he's right.

He's only good at shooting

only good at shooting

:biggums:

just because dirk doesnt average 13rpg doesnt mean he cant rebound. Also a very solid passer.. especially off a double team which is crucial for a superstar.

[Pointguard]

he shouldve left out the one trick pony part. it has such a strong negative connotation attached to it which is something someone in his position should know. it felt a little disrespectful to me. it's like he was implying that that was the only thing Dirk was good for with the remark
He said MORE like a 1 trick Pony. This is my third time reiterating that. It's relatively new to the game for great 7 footers to not emphasize those aspects of the game.

[SexSymbol]

It's funny that noone ever mentions that Kareem was considered soft throughout his career. And a pretty bad defender.
Put Dirk on those 80s lakers teams and they become even more unstoppable.

[Pointguard]

Kareem says it like it is. Most athletes just beat around the bush and play politics. He'll give you the good with the bad and people will hang onto the bad and call him salty.
The light was apparently bothering him. With that said he said it off the cusp in a very sincere way like he does everything else. He and Wilt were as frank as it gets in interviews. Wilt trashed Kareem for the same two things in interviews. And Kareem in his prime would easily lead this league in both categories in every era that Wilt/Russell didn't play in.

[Nick Young]

Kareem is right. Dirk is a one-trick pony in that he is only good at scoring, but is not great at anything else.

Kareem even acknowledges that if Dirk played good D and was better on the boards he would be on the same level as Kareem and the other GOATs.

Kareem was not saying that Dirk only has one offensive movie. He said that Dirk is only great at one aspect of basketball.

[SexSymbol]

Kareem is right. Dirk is a one-trick pony in that he is only good at scoring, but is not great at anything else.

Kareem even acknowledges that if Dirk played good D and was better on the boards he would be on the same level as Kareem and the other GOATs.
Dirk has great handles.
He's a great passer.
Good rebounder
Good defender.

Kareem is a retard

[pastis]

Dirk has great handles.
He's a great passer.
Good rebounder
Good defender.

Kareem is a retard

:applause: :applause:

[miggyme1]

It's funny that noone ever mentions that Kareem was considered soft throughout his career. And a pretty bad defender.
Put Dirk on those 80s lakers teams and they become even more unstoppable.


LAY OFF THE BLOW

[SexSymbol]

LAY OFF THE BLOW
Seriously, you put someone on the 80s lakers who can hit 3s at a 40 percent rate consistently and at a high volume and you have an even more groundbreaking team than they ever where.
Or are you saying that Kareem wasn't considered soft throughout his career and especially in bucks days?

[miggyme1]

Seriously, you put someone on the 80s lakers who can hit 3s at a 40 percent rate consistently and at a high volume and you have an even more groundbreaking team than they ever where.
Or are you saying that Kareem wasn't considered soft throughout his career and especially in bucks days?


soft players don't win rings...its a proven fact. im all for calling Dwight soft....ummmm who else??? amare.....ummmmm help me out. kwami brown. ummmmmm im thinking oh Andrew Bynum (yes he won rings but he wasn't that much of contributor,his best season was after the title run and then he imploded) ummmm roy hibbert

but kareem soft?? cmon...just stop it

[CavaliersFTW]

Kareem is right. Dirk is a one-trick pony in that he is only good at scoring, but is not great at anything else.

Kareem even acknowledges that if Dirk played good D and was better on the boards he would be on the same level as Kareem and the other GOATs.

Kareem was not saying that Dirk only has one offensive movie. He said that Dirk is only great at one aspect of basketball.
^- this. Dirk fans getting rustled here without proper context.

And I don't think Kareem is wrong either. Dirk is certainly great but I think there was some untapped potential in rebounding or defense.

[SexSymbol]

soft players don't win rings...its a proven fact. im all for calling Dwight soft....ummmm who else??? amare.....ummmmm help me out. kwami brown. ummmmmm im thinking oh Andrew Bynum (yes he won rings but he wasn't that much of contributor,his best season was after the title run and then he imploded) ummmm roy hibbert

but kareem soft?? cmon...just stop it
Bron is soft and won 2 rings.
Bosh is soft and won 2 rings.
Gasol is soft and won 2 rings.


Bynum isn't soft, he's just dumb.

[CavaliersFTW]

Seriously, you put someone on the 80s lakers who can hit 3s at a 40 percent rate consistently and at a high volume and you have an even more groundbreaking team than they ever where.
Or are you saying that Kareem wasn't considered soft throughout his career and especially in bucks days?
The Lakers would be eaten alive by Moses Malone, Bob lanier, Artis Gilmore, Hakeem Olajuwon/Sampson duo, McHale/Parish/Walton trio etc without Kareem.

You put Dirk in place of him and they'd get devoured inside. He'll pull defenders out to guard his shot ....at the expense of defense specifically rim protection in the form of blocked shots, inside points, rebounding, etc. Kareem was a better player than Dirk. He didn't shoot the 3 who cares, he did other things better than Dirk, you can't replace him with Dirk and get the same or better results.

[SexSymbol]

The Lakers would be eaten alive by Moses Malone, Bob lanier, Artis Gilmore, Hakeem Olajuwon/Sampson duo, McHale/Parish/Walton trio etc without Kareem.

You put Dirk in place of him and they'd get devoured inside. He'll pull defenders out to guard his shot ....at the expense of defense specifically rim protection in the form of blocked shots, inside points, rebounding, etc. Kareem was a better player than Dirk. He didn't shoot the 3 who cares, he did other things better than Dirk, you can't replace him with Dirk and get the same or better results.
Kareem wasn't a very good defender, so there's not much loss on that side of the ball.
And Dirk would bring something unseen before on offense. The primitive defensive schemes of the 80s would get sweatier and sweatier trying to figure out the gameplan to defend dirk, a 7 footer shooting 3s in his sleep.

[CavaliersFTW]

Kareem wasn't a very good defender, so there's not much loss on that side of the ball.
And Dirk would bring something unseen before on offense. The primitive defensive schemes of the 80s would get sweatier and sweatier trying to figure out the gameplan to defend dirk, a 7 footer shooting 3s in his sleep.
They'd just put their hands on him and apply muscle to throw his shot off rhythm. As they'd have been allowed to do - and as defenders are not allowed to do today. Put a Laimbeer on Dirk, see how many 3's he gets.

Dirk offers nothing but vastly inferior rim protection than Kareem. Kareem was a shot blocker. Dirk has T-Rex arms compared to Kareem and is 3 or 4 inches shorter. The comparison between how the two would impact a game defensively is vast. Kareem is a center and the Lakers needed a center - they didn't need another powerforward instead of a center. He's better overall than Dirk anyways, regardless of position. 1980's get worse with Dirk instead of Kareem, not better. They won 5 titles with Kareem.

[miggyme1]

Bron is soft and won 2 rings.
Bosh is soft and won 2 rings.
Gasol is soft and won 2 rings.


Bynum isn't soft, he's just dumb.


LOL WHAT?

MAYBE WE HAVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS OF THE WORD SOFT

I USE SOFT IN THE CONTEXT OF AS NOT HAVING THICK SKIN. BYNUM WOULD WHINE EVERYTIME YOU SAID SOMETHING NEGATIVE ABOUT HIM

[SexSymbol]

LOL WHAT?

MAYBE WE HAVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS OF THE WORD SOFT

I USE SOFT IN THE CONTEXT OF AS NOT HAVING THICK SKIN. BYNUM WOULD WHINE EVERYTIME YOU SAID SOMETHING NEGATIVE ABOUT HIM
Bynum also stood up for himself and wasn't a pushover on the court. He played big.

Meanwhile, Pierce and Odom were also soft and have won rings.

[ArbitraryWater]

^- this. Dirk fans getting rustled here without proper context.

And I don't think Kareem is wrong either. Dirk is certainly great but I think there was some untapped potential in rebounding or defense.

There are tons of non Dirk fans in here saying Kareem is bullshitting.. stop unzipping your pants for every old geezer every now and then

[ArbitraryWater]

^- this. Dirk fans getting rustled here without proper context.

And I don't think Kareem is wrong either. Dirk is certainly great but I think there was some untapped potential in rebounding or defense.

How is one that spends so much time watching basketball clips so dumb to believe this stuff...

he posts ATG def. rebounding numbers, but I'm sure you'd rather have him hustle on the boards offensively for like one a game, instead of creating spacing and open lanes on every possession by stretching out the court :oldlol:

Yeah, untapped potential... dat one rebound would be much more valuable!

[feyki]

Dirk couldn't defend like Kareem or Duncan , that's normal . Dirk hadn't 7'5 wingspan and he hadn't solid athleticism . Dirk worked hard as he can . He evolve to an nba star , legend . Kareem is wrong . Dirk had a lot of thing as he can . He had solid rebounding , he had better than average defending , he had good playmaking . If Dirk can't shoot like this year Lebron , we would say ; work on shooting and gain it . But You can't gain your wingspan .

Kareem always said that , Oscar better than Jordan . Well , why had Oscar terrible defence ? He was on the Nash level . Dirk had much better D than Oscar .

Well , Was Oscar one trick pony ?

Kareem should read and watch more than he does the game .

[knicksman]

Ill take a player who is elite at the most important skill(scoring) than a jack of all trades like bran. Thats why you can win with dirk, while you need the most stacked team to win with bran

[dubeta]

Ill take a player who is elite at the most important skill(scoring) than a jack of all trades like bran. Thats why you can win with dirk, while you need the most stacked team to win with bran

bran 2 rings

Dirk 1

[knicksman]

bran 2 rings

Dirk 1

Sorry but only fellow betas respect brans rings

[DMAVS41]

^- this. Dirk fans getting rustled here without proper context.

And I don't think Kareem is wrong either. Dirk is certainly great but I think there was some untapped potential in rebounding or defense.

Are you serious? You really think Dirk could have been a better defender and rebounder if he just worked harder?

Like...what?

The only way that happens is if Dirk used less energy on offense and played less minutes...which would be stupid.

Also, the rebounding thing has to stop. Dirk was an excellent defensive rebounder for most of his career...and he wasn't near the basket to get a lot of boards off his own misses or the misses of others.

He was too busy draining shots from literally all over the court at unprecedented rates for a big.

Was he the perfect player? Hell no, but there wasn't some untapped potential for him to remain elite offensively and also be like Duncan on defense and on the glass. That was never a possibility for Dirk.

He tapped everything he had....and will go down as a top 20 player of all time because of it.

[Derka]

The quote is out of context but I disagree all the same.

[tpols]

Dirk couldn't defend like Kareem or Duncan , that's normal . Dirk hadn't 7'5 wingspan and he hadn't solid athleticism . Dirk worked hard as he can .

Kareem should read and watch more than he does the game .

this.

kareem cant even appreciate his own gifts in comparison.. Dirk most likely worked harder (or better) at his game than kareem.. he was more skilled. Kareem was taller and more athletic (on top of being very skilled but not Dirk skilled).

[Nick Young]

Dirk has great handles.
He's a great passer.
Good rebounder
Good defender.

Kareem is a retard
Dirk doesn't have great handles. Someone like Steph Curry or Kyrie Irving has great handles. Dirk is not a great passer. Nash and Stockton were great passers.
Dirk is an average rebounder and plays average defense.

[tpols]

Dirk doesn't have great handles. Someone like Steph Curry or Kyrie Irving has great handles. Dirk is not a great passer. Nash and Stockton were great passers.
Dirk is an average rebounder and plays average defense.


uh, there exists no PF that can dribble or handle like kyrie or Curry. you have to compare him to PF's.. ones w/ good handle like maybe KG or Webber or Odom, in which hes worse, but his overall offensive package blows theirs so far out of the water it doesnt mean much.

[Nick Young]

uh, there exists no PF that can dribble or handle like kyrie or Curry. you have to compare him to PF's.. ones w/ good handle like maybe KG or Webber or Odom, in which hes worse, but his overall offensive package blows theirs so far out of the water it doesnt mean much.
I agree. But he's still a one trick pony, in terms of what Kareem was saying. Dirk is only elite at scoring baskets. He is ok at other things but he is not dominant.

[tmacattack33]

One trick? :biggums:

Scoring?

Scoring is the most important part of the game

[tpols]

I agree. But he's still a one trick pony, in terms of what Kareem was saying. Dirk is only elite at scoring baskets. He is ok at other things but he is not dominant.

yea, but kareem said it in his condescending tone, implying Dirk didnt work hard enough at other areas.. no, dirk just wasnt blessed with physical advantages to be dominant at those other areas like kareem was. Thats where kareem is wrong

[TheBigVeto]

How come noone created a thread on this?
Kareem just flat out disrespected a fellow ATG player

Kareem is one of the GOATs but he's totally wrong here. Not sure why dude is racist against Dirk, the 2nd GOAT PF.

[Nick Young]

yea, but kareem said it in his condescending tone, implying Dirk didnt work hard enough at other areas.. no, dirk just wasnt blessed with physical advantages to be dominant at those other areas like kareem was. Thats where kareem is wrong
He's right. Defense is pure effort. Dirk certainly did not work as hard as he could have in putting his best effort in on defense. Or the boards.

[tpols]

He's right. Defense is pure effort. .

http://thesilversword.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/40b2261b2d0dec20b8f8d70deff5b37472976b0f26cbf0cc46 6a2e17503a19cf_large.jpeg








http://media0.giphy.com/media/4pMX5rJ4PYAEM/giphy.gif

[Pointguard]

Kareem comes from a background where he could not be Dirk. He got tremendous criticism for not playing defense and slacking on rebounding despite being near the top of the league in those areas. Wilt used to ride him about those things, its a joke in the "Airplane" movie. Its well known. If he missed three or four days in that vein he was crucified. I too would be amused at a guy who comes along with an inferior shot, comes up and never gets any attention for being average in those areas his whole career. The standard for Kareem was be a top notch passer, be a top notch defender, be the unstoppable offensive force, be among the top shot blockers, be among the best rebounders, be the best at all big men categories and to work as hard as Malone. All Dirk had to do was score and there was little criticism or other standards applied toward Dirk otherwise.

You can ask anybody who has had super high standards put on them about another guy who had one, and that one standard was never to be even the best at that one standard, they are going to have some resentment about the guy who has no applied standards from the outside. It makes absolute sense. And if you catch him and ask him about it, and he's sincere, he's not going to big up the guy who is help to no standards. Its absolute foolishness to think so.

[DMAVS41]

What more has to happen for the "traditionalists" to just admit there is more than one way for a big to play the game?

Like...has Dirk's career not just destroyed you guys at this point? He's about to be voted as a top 20 player of all time by ESPN...has had absurd success given his circumstances throughout his career...and has been at it for almost 20 years at this point.

Like...just admit there are multiple ways to be great.

At some point the "old school group" needs to just realize the value of a player like Dirk and what his gravity does for the team. You can't measure Dirk's true impact with the traditional stats you guys want to look at.

It's why plenty of smart people rank Dirk over a guy like KG. Not going down that rabbit hole here, but the point is that it's perfectly reasonable to take Dirk over one of the best defenders of all time that also was great offensively. Kareem, or whoever, needs to realize this...

[DoctorP]

Fair critique from one of the best to ever do it. I agree, Dirk could have been more dominant with better D and shotblocking. Kareem is speaking like a coach here.

[IGOTGAME]

this.

kareem cant even appreciate his own gifts in comparison.. Dirk most likely worked harder (or better) at his game than kareem.. he was more skilled. Kareem was taller and more athletic (on top of being very skilled but not Dirk skilled).

On what grounds can you possibly say this? Because Dirk is a better jumpshoter because the difference in post game and defensive positioning are both just as big. Those count as skills too.

Dirk is a top 20 player ever and a great natural athlete. He isn't Kareem and he didn't dominate the NBA. Dominating is Shaq or Jordan.

Also Firk got better after that historic loss to Golden State in the playoffs. Before that he had a huge hole in his game. And we can't act like he always has that because he developed it later

[DMAVS41]

On what grounds can you possibly say this? Because Dirk is a better jumpshoter because the difference in post game and defensive positioning are both just as big. Those count as skills too.

Dirk is a top 20 player ever and a great natural athlete. He isn't Kareem and he didn't dominate the NBA. Dominating is Shaq or Jordan.

Also Firk got better after that historic loss to Golden State in the playoffs. Before that he had a huge hole in his game. And we can't act like he always has that because he developed it later

This is really a false narrative...

Dirk did get better...like all players do over time, but he didn't have a huge hole in his game.

It was just a tough matchup, weird off court circumstances, terrible coaching, and no legit 2nd option to fall back on.

The Warriors did everything they could to take Dirk out of the game and make someone else beat them...why? Because Nellie knew nobody else on Dallas could.

It was a combination of Dirk playing poorly...with the result of bad coaching and not quite championship level help.

Dirk put up 22/12/2 54% TS through the first 5 games of that series with the Warriors doubling him off the ball, on the ball, playing in front and behind...they did it all.

That series has kind of turned into a myth at this point. Dirk was bad, but there have been far worse series under much easier circumstances.

[DMAVS41]

Fair critique from one of the best to ever do it. I agree, Dirk could have been more dominant with better D and shotblocking. Kareem is speaking like a coach here.

Of course if Dirk played Duncan level defense...he'd be much better. He'd be in the conversation for GOAT...LOL

That is like saying...

"if Kareem learned to shoot the 3, shot 90% from the ft line, and developed a mid range pull up jumper....he would have been more dominant"

Like...what is even the point of saying that?

[houston]

kareem a hater whats new I wonder what he thinks of bob mcadoo game lol

[Alan Ogg]

Dirk is one of the most dominant players of all time. Very few could take over a game like him. Top 20 player of all time.

[Alan Ogg]

The Mavericks since they got Dirk:
Year Wins Losses %
1998

[Hotlantadude81]

Dirk never played with the talent Kareem played with.

Cool yourself, old ass racist.

Yeah, I wonder if he would say the same about someone like Nique... I'm betting that he wouldn't.

[AirFederer]

Are you serious? You really think Dirk could have been a better defender and rebounder if he just worked harder?

Like...what?

The only way that happens is if Dirk used less energy on offense and played less minutes...which would be stupid.

Also, the rebounding thing has to stop. Dirk was an excellent defensive rebounder for most of his career...and he wasn't near the basket to get a lot of boards off his own misses or the misses of others.

He was too busy draining shots from literally all over the court at unprecedented rates for a big.

Was he the perfect player? Hell no, but there wasn't some untapped potential for him to remain elite offensively and also be like Duncan on defense and on the glass. That was never a possibility for Dirk.

He tapped everything he had....and will go down as a top 20 player of all time because of it.

Agreed 100%. I can`t phantom why someone like Kareem would call a lock top 20 a one trick pony, that`s just plain stupid. Dirk had (has) a beautiful all around and off ball game, not in the traditional way, but he revolutionized the big man posistin in regard of what a big could bring to the table.

[DMAVS41]

Agreed 100%. I can`t phantom why someone like Kareem would call a lock top 20 a one trick pony, that`s just plain stupid. Dirk had (has) a beautiful all around and off ball game, not in the traditional way, but he revolutionized the big man posistin in regard of what a big could bring to the table.

Yea...of course if Dirk was better on the glass and on defense he would have been a better player. This is obvious...but I don't think he really had that capability in a reasonable way.

I'm just wondering if people here will apply the same standards to others.

Take Duncan. Think of how much better he would have been if he ever learned to shoot ft's at an 85% clip or better. Seems like that is just lack of work ethic...right? I mean...it seems like Duncan shooting over 85% from the ft line is a lot more realistic than Dirk becoming an all time great defensive player given his body and athleticism.

How about Kareem not learning to shoot the 3? What...he just didn't have the skill? Seems lazy...

See people? You could say this stuff about everyone.

The only difference here...is that some of this stuff is way more realistic than others.

[Pointguard]

Yea...of course if Dirk was better on the glass and on defense he would have been a better player. This is obvious...but I don't think he really had that capability in a reasonable way.

I'm just wondering if people here will apply the same standards to others.

Take Duncan. Think of how much better he would have been if he ever learned to shoot ft's at an 85% clip or better. Seems like that is just lack of work ethic...right? I mean...it seems like Duncan shooting over 85% from the ft line is a lot more realistic than Dirk becoming an all time great defensive player given his body and athleticism.

How about Kareem not learning to shoot the 3? What...he just didn't have the skill? Seems lazy...

See people? You could say this stuff about everyone.

The only difference here...is that some of this stuff is way more realistic than others.
Dirk could rebound and defend, it wasn't out of reach for him or something he had to learn, it wasn't unrealistic at all. It wasn't something troublesome to learn in general, as say free throws which is problematic for most big men. Playing defense is a basic requirement in the sport and part of the criteria to be great before Dirk. And it still is a requirement for most to be great. I think Kareem saw it as effort related and for some reason a standard not applied to Dirk while Kareem was harassed by the media if he dared have the audacity to not put great effort in those areas.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk could rebound and defend, it wasn't out of reach for him or something he had to learn, it wasn't unrealistic at all. It wasn't something troublesome to learn in general, as say free throws which is problematic for most big men. Playing defense is a basic requirement in the sport and part of the criteria to be great before Dirk. And it still is a requirement for most to be great. I think Kareem saw it as effort related and for some reason a standard not applied to Dirk while Kareem was harassed by the media if he dared have the audacity to not put great effort in those areas.

But this is a false comparison...as Dirk was a much better rebounder than Duncan, for example, was a ft shooter.

We know you are a Dirk hater, but you just sound ignorant when you say he could have "learned" to rebound and defend.

He actually did just that. He actually was just a good rebounder for most of his career...there is really nothing to dispute here. He was a good rebounder for the role he played...arguably an excellent defensive rebounder...especially given his role.

He also did improve dramatically on defense from where he started and continuously improved throughout his career from Nellie to Avery to Rick.

It certainly wasn't effort related or work ethic related. Again, you are just ignorant about Dirk.

But yep...let's ignore basically every defensive metric we have...and team defense, on/off...etc....and pretend like Dirk was a bad rebounder and defender.

Like I said above...what more has to happen for you clowns to just admit you were/are wrong about Dirk?

He's about to be voted top 20 all time on ESPN...was ranked over KG and Barkley...I know that has to kill you.

That is why this stuff is so dumb. If we are going to get on Dirk for his rebounding...we better get on Duncan for his inept ft shooting that is clearly work ethic related. As Duncan could make the mid range shot pretty well...but he clearly never worked on his ft shooting. Now, I'm actually not making this argument...I'm just showing you how it needs to cut both ways.

Which, of course, it won't because you and others won't be able to remain consistent.

But I'll just sit back and watch...after all these years going back and forth with people like you claiming that nobody other than Dirk fans think he's a top 20 player. That nobody other than Dirk fans would put him in the same class as KG. That Dirk would never lead a team to a title...etc...etc...etc.

Like I keep saying...how much more evidence do you need? The dude just dropped 28 like it was nothing last night and is once again the best player on a team exceeding expectations...and he's in year 18...it's just getting sad for you guys at this point.

[Dragonyeuw]

Why is Dirk's rebounding being spoken of by some in the negative? The guy averaged 10+ in the playoffs,and there's enough of a sample size to use as an arguing point. He was a perimeter-oriented power forward, so why is he being measured rebound-wise against guys whose skillsets called for them to play closer to the basket and be in position to mix it up? Dirk's rebounding was more than fine given his skillset and style of play.

[IGOTGAME]

This is really a false narrative...

Dirk did get better...like all players do over time, but he didn't have a huge hole in his game.

It was just a tough matchup, weird off court circumstances, terrible coaching, and no legit 2nd option to fall back on.

The Warriors did everything they could to take Dirk out of the game and make someone else beat them...why? Because Nellie knew nobody else on Dallas could.

It was a combination of Dirk playing poorly...with the result of bad coaching and not quite championship level help.

Dirk put up 22/12/2 54% TS through the first 5 games of that series with the Warriors doubling him off the ball, on the ball, playing in front and behind...they did it all.

That series has kind of turned into a myth at this point. Dirk was bad, but there have been far worse series under much easier circumstances.

My fault, I actually mistakenly put the wrong historic loss in there. I meant the one to the Heat. Don't know what I was thinking...also, Dirk has co-signed on that narrative.

[DMAVS41]

My fault, I actually mistakenly put the wrong historic loss in there. I meant the one to the Heat. Don't know what I was thinking...also, Dirk has co-signed on that narrative.

If you think the 06 Mavs...coached by Avery...who weren't even favored to get out of the 2nd round...

Losing to the Heat in the finals is a "historic loss"...you simply don't understand the game or it's history.

Co-signed on what? Being probably the most clutch and best late game player of the post MJ era?

Yep...he's done that for sure.

[miggyme1]

If you think the 06 Mavs...coached by Avery...who weren't even favored to get out of the 2nd round...

Losing to the Heat in the finals is a "historic loss"...you simply don't understand the game or it's history.

Co-signed on what? Being probably the most clutch and best late game player of the post MJ era?

Yep...he's done that for sure.


smh mavs went 60-22 that year and had the 2nd best record in the nba. just shut the f*ck up. Stop defending your team blindly. Be a man and admit defeat. you wont because you are a coward.



oh and they destroyed the heavily favored spurs in the second round. GTFO

[miggyme1]

smh mavs went 60-22 that year and had the 2nd best record in the nba. just shut the f*ck up. Stop defending your team blindly. Be a man and admit defeat. you wont because you are a coward.



oh and they destroyed the heavily favored spurs in the second round. GTFO

it was a historic loss considering you were about to go up 3-0 in an NBA FINALS AND YOU LOSE 4 STRAIGHT

[Dragonyeuw]

smh mavs went 60-22 that year and had the 2nd best record in the nba. just shut the f*ck up. Stop defending your team blindly. Be a man and admit defeat. you wont because you are a coward.



oh and they destroyed the heavily favored spurs in the second round. GTFO


it was a historic loss considering you were about to go up 3-0 in an NBA FINALS AND YOU LOSE 4 STRAIGHT


Look at this fcuking idiot quoting himself. EXPOSED.

[miggyme1]

LMAO somebody's feelings are still hurt from like two days ago. GET WELL SOON

[pastis]

there are some very objective and nice wade fans on this board. and then there are navy and pointguard.

edit: and pussyme1. they should make a threesome and suck each other dry while watching some wade highlights

[DoctorP]

Why is Dirk's rebounding being spoken of by some in the negative? The guy averaged 10+ in the playoffs,and there's enough of a sample size to use as an arguing point. He was a perimeter-oriented power forward, so why is he being measured rebound-wise against guys whose skillsets called for them to play closer to the basket and be in position to mix it up? Dirk's rebounding was more than fine given his skillset and style of play.

I think thats a very reasonable point and one that in hindsight should have been considered more by Kareem before making his statement. If Dirk would have played more of a power game his shooting would have most likely suffered.

[Dragonyeuw]

LMAO somebody's feelings are still hurt from like two days ago. GET WELL SOON

Nope. You got exposed, a fcuking idiot trying to puff out his chest after quoting and replying to his own post. Take the L and move on.

[miggyme1]

stalking me for 2 days to hand me an "L" because he has no debate skills. we know who the real "LOSER" is. LMAO

[miggyme1]

there are some very objective and nice wade fans on this board. and then there are navy and pointguard.

edit: and pussyme1. they should make a threesome and suck each other dry while watching some wade highlights



How does a post so gay make you feel so straight?

[Dragonyeuw]

stalking me for 2 days to hand me an "L" because he has no debate skills. we know who the real "LOSER" is. LMAO



smh mavs went 60-22 that year and had the 2nd best record in the nba. just shut the f*ck up. Stop defending your team blindly. Be a man and admit defeat. you wont because you are a coward.



oh and they destroyed the heavily favored spurs in the second round. GTFO


it was a historic loss considering you were about to go up 3-0 in an NBA FINALS AND YOU LOSE 4 STRAIGHT


:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll::roll::roll::roll:

[miggyme1]

but refuses to show how long he has been stalking me.


DESTROYED. AGAIN


:sleeping :sleeping

[pastis]

but refuses to show how long he has been stalking me.


DESTROYED. AGAIN


:sleeping :sleeping

DEEPER, DEEPER, ******

[miggyme1]

DEEPER, DEEPER, ******


ALT ACCOUNT. I KNEW IT

[TrueBlue89]

Pretty funny the people that are on KAJ's back for his comments are the biggest Harden critics.

[Dragonyeuw]

but refuses to show how long he has been stalking me.


DESTROYED. AGAIN


:sleeping :sleeping

Fcuk are you talking about? I wasn't even aware of your existence on the boards before the BS you wrote 2 days ago. And pretty much forgot your dumb ass until you pop up quoting and arguing with yourself. :lol

[pastis]

Fcuk are you talking about? I wasn't even aware of your existence on the boards before the BS you wrote 2 days ago. And pretty much forgot your dumb ass until you pop up quoting and arguing with yourself. :lol

alt account

[kentatm]

Dude, youre wrong.

If every player puts an equal effort into defense, then there will still be guys who have naturally longer arms to block shots and disrupt passing lanes, guys with stronger cavs and quads who can crouch down and glide side to side more easily, some guys just naturally read offensive players body language and anticipate their intentions better.

Youre speaking in cliches a coach would tell a middle school bball camp. "Just try your best and you can be as good as anybody!"

It's not how it works my friend. Some people have natural advantages. Some people are just really good at particular things. Thats why not only Steve Nash isnt as good as GP on defense, but the vast majority of guards in history arent. And many of them worked hard. But guys who separate themselves at the very top level usually have built-in advantages. Thinking every NBA player has the ability to be an equal defender, shooter, rebounder as every other player is just... Ridiculous.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Starface doin work

[miggyme1]

I got a guy stalking me with two of his accounts because he couldn't debate me. Im sure ill be holding another "L" soon because he is so relentless in making me look bad over the internet. :facepalm

[Dragonyeuw]

alt account

Yup, clearly. And looking more and more desperate trying to deflect from getting called out. I made sure to quote his dumb ass before he edited his post. LOL at him accusing someone of using alt accounts after this:



smh mavs went 60-22 that year and had the 2nd best record in the nba. just shut the f*ck up. Stop defending your team blindly. Be a man and admit defeat. you wont because you are a coward.



oh and they destroyed the heavily favored spurs in the second round. GTFO


it was a historic loss considering you were about to go up 3-0 in an NBA FINALS AND YOU LOSE 4 STRAIGHT



And judging from his above stupidity, he thinks you and I are the same poster. What a cvunt.

[Pointguard]

But this is a false comparison...as Dirk was a much better rebounder than Duncan, for example, was a ft shooter. something in the nature of big men is problematic with free throws in much the same proportion as big men are more likely to be better rebounders....


We know you are a Dirk hater, but you just sound ignorant when you say he could have "learned" to rebound and defend. I'm not a Dirk hater but he was indeed a resource to show your hypocrisies. But of course your imagination toke over and somehow I say "it wasnt something he had to learn," and you turned into the nonsense above like you can't read.


He actually did just that. He actually was just a good rebounder for most of his career...there is really nothing to dispute here. He was a good rebounder for the role he played...arguably an excellent defensive rebounder...especially given his role. He was one of a few that usually took a weaker cover of two bigs. His role was to make sure the stiff who can't score doesn't get offensive rebounds. Its a much easier task than defending stars and rebounding.


It certainly wasn't effort related or work ethic related. Again, you are just ignorant about Dirk.

You use the word ignorant when you're feeling insecure. Are you saying Dirk has the same work ethic as KG and Duncan?


But yep...let's ignore basically every defensive metric we have...and team defense, on/off...etc....and pretend like Dirk was a bad rebounder and defender.
Never said he was bad, but he definitely had to do a lot less than others.

Like I said above...what more has to happen for you clowns to just admit you were/are wrong about Dirk?

He's about to be voted top 20 all time on ESPN...was ranked over KG and Barkley...I know that has to kill you. Espn never really upheld a standard or showed much insight and have always had a flavor for entertainment above all. I have Dirk ranked very high but have always said he was one the most limited high ranking players. On top of that, there is only one year where his offensive abilities would be in the elite tier and it was his 22/7 year. In his best full year Wade proved to be two tiers above him. So lets not pretend he's an easy figure because he isn't.

Dirk is primarily a shooter scorer and it carries him very far. Curry and Durant are a level above him. His best years were not on the level of his contemporaries best. Rick Barry, a shooter scorer that scored from everywhere and was prolific on a higher scale in the playoffs but got criticism for his defense - McAdoo the same thing. Pretty soon the whole league will be this way.

Kareem seen that and remembers that. You get passes for that now.

[ErhnamDjinn]

Fair critique from one of the best to ever do it. I agree, Dirk could have been more dominant with better D and shotblocking. Kareem is speaking like a coach here.
I think it has to do because Dirk is 7 feet its assumed he has to play a stopper role as well, but Dirk's basically a 7 foot SF/SG.Which is why the 2011 Dallas team clicked, Defense was anchored by Tyson and Dirk was the primary offense point which sucked defenses in and they had a plethora of shooters.

[pastis]

you know pointguard, your comment is shit from a-z. really.

so im just gonna answer regarding your amazement towards dirks work ethic. as it would have been inferior to duncans or garnetts. wtf? really. do you ever watched dirk? do you ever listened the interveiws, read columns/texts etc about him? i highly doubt it. really

just search in google: "Dirk nowitzki work ethic". and be quite for ever

[DMAVS41]

something in the nature of big men is problematic with free throws in much the same proportion as big men are more likely to be better rebounders....
I'm not a Dirk hater but he was indeed a resource to show your hypocrisies. But of course your imagination toke over and somehow I say "it wasnt something he had to learn," and you turned into the nonsense above like you can't read. He was one of a few that usually took a weaker cover of two bigs. His role was to make sure the stiff who can't score doesn't get offensive rebounds. Its a much easier task than defending stars and rebounding.

You use the word ignorant when you're feeling insecure. Are you saying Dirk has the same work ethic as KG and Duncan?

Never said he was bad, but he definitely had to do a lot less than others. Espn never really upheld a standard or showed much insight and have always had a flavor for entertainment above all. I have Dirk ranked very high but have always said he was one the most limited high ranking players. On top of that, there is only one year where his offensive abilities would be in the elite tier and it was his 22/7 year. In his best full year Wade proved to be two tiers above him. So lets not pretend he's an easy figure because he isn't.

Dirk is primarily a shooter scorer and it carries him very far. Curry and Durant are a level above him. His best years were not on the level of his contemporaries best. Rick Barry, a shooter scorer that scored from everywhere and was prolific on a higher scale in the playoffs but got criticism for his defense - McAdoo the same thing. Pretty soon the whole league will be this way.

Kareem seen that and remembers that. You get passes for that now.


Until you learn that comparing Dirk to the "regular big man" is foolish...you'll never get it.

Work ethic? Dirk's is legendary...again, why would Duncan remain such an incompetent ft shooter if he was working on that aspect of his game all the time? Why did Kareem never learn to shoot 3's? Imagine how good he would have been if he could hit 3's as well.

Insecure? Are you kidding? ESPN just destroyed you. Dirk ranked 17th all time...ahead of your boy KG.

Are you doing okay? Like...these last 5 years have been pretty bad for you. Dirk now seen as better than KG by a lot of people (something you claimed was false)...and Rose has been an even bigger disaster than anyone could have imagined.

I know you aren't doing good, but at least don't resort to non starters like the above.

You can't remain consistent because if you were...you'd be hammering the likes of Duncan and Kareem for not improving huge holes in their games if everything is on the table.

Again, there is no difference. You can't go at Dirk for rebounding and not at Duncan for ft shooting...using the excuses...bigs aren't good at something.

In that answer you don't realize that you've pinpointed exactly what makes Dirk the 17th best player of all time. He does things other bigs were not capable of...and looking at him through the standard model is a big mistake.

Hence your abundant ignorance.

I ask again...what more does he have to do...and how much more evidence do you need to realize just how great and dominant Dirk was throughout his career?

Stats, sustained success, all time great longevity and durability, respect from basketball community in the know...

Take the L...please....I just feel sorry for you at this point, but just like Rose...you love that big L

Oh, and peak Wade was not two tiers better than Dirk. Not even sure peak Dirk was 06...but he pretty much equaled Duncan in a playoff series and beat him with a worse team and a coach literally 10 levels worse than Pop

So, as usual, just no...stop talking

[miggyme1]

Until you learn that comparing Dirk to the "regular big man" is foolish...you'll never get it.

Work ethic? Dirk's is legendary...again, why would Duncan remain such an incompetent ft shooter if he was working on that aspect of his game all the time? Why did Kareem never learn to shoot 3's? Imagine how good he would have been if he could hit 3's as well.

Insecure? Are you kidding? ESPN just destroyed you. Dirk ranked 17th all time...ahead of your boy KG.

Are you doing okay? Like...these last 5 years have been pretty bad for you. Dirk now seen as better than KG by a lot of people (something you claimed was false)...and Rose has been an even bigger disaster than anyone could have imagined.

I know you aren't doing good, but at least don't resort to non starters like the above.

You can't remain consistent because if you were...you'd be hammering the likes of Duncan and Kareem for not improving huge holes in their games if everything is on the table.

Again, there is no difference. You can't go at Dirk for rebounding and not at Duncan for ft shooting...using the excuses...bigs aren't good at something.

In that answer you don't realize that you've pinpointed exactly what makes Dirk the 17th best player of all time. He does things other bigs were not capable of...and looking at him through the standard model is a big mistake.

Hence your abundant ignorance.

I ask again...what more does he have to do...and how much more evidence do you need to realize just how great and dominant Dirk was throughout his career?

Stats, sustained success, all time great longevity and durability, respect from basketball community in the know...

Take the L...please....I just feel sorry for you at this point, but just like Rose...you love that big L

Oh, and peak Wade was not two tiers better than Dirk. Not even sure peak Dirk was 06...but he pretty much equaled Duncan in a playoff series and beat him with a worse team and a coach literally 10 levels worse than Pop

So, as usual, just no...stop talking


yet according to you...and these are your words. Mavs got lucky and won the ship in 2011. so the mavs have never been good enough to win a ship. Im curious where will you rank dirk when its all said and done. top 10? top 5? top 3? GOAT?

JUST CURIOUS. You wont respond though

[Optimus Prime]

Kareem is very angry and bitter. This is nothing new.

I love Dirk's response though...basically...

"Tough to average 25 and 10 as a one-trick pony"

:bowdown:

:kobe:

http://i.imgur.com/e3nlEDP.gif

[BigMacAttack]

Kareem with the "I cant stand white people".

[poido123]

It's because he's a cracker, let's be honest

[bizil]

When looking at scoring, passing, rebounding, and defense, the ONLY thing Dirk was great at was scoring. While MANY of the other legends were great at three to all four of those facets.

So in comparison to many of the other great players, Dirk doesn't impact the game in as many ways. Rebounding wise, he was good to very good at times. But Dirk was NEVER really a dominant rebounder.

BUT with that said, Dirk was STILL a dominant player. And among the best alpha dog PF's of all time. And of course is the greatest shooting big man of all time. Peak Dirk was getting 25 points and 10 boards a night while being a matchup nightmare. So even though what Kareem said was somewhat true, Dirk was a BEAST at the most premium asset in the sport. And that's ALPHA DOG scoring! Plus he redefined his position on top of it!

[Asukal]

Although somewhat true, "one trick pony" is a rude description specially coming from someone like Kareem. He probably didn't mean to be rude or anything but that is just classless. Dirk has one of the greatest playoffs runs in NBA history considering the era, the opponents, and his heroics and deserves more respect than being called a one trick pony. Why didn't he just answer the question? :facepalm

[Milbuck]

It wouldn't be as annoying a statement if it wasn't so blatantly wrong. Like this is the shit you expect some casual fan who just discovered bballreference to say.

He was an above average defender in his prime.

Was a very good passer who consistently had some of the smoothest, most complex offenses ran through him.

Averaged 11 rebounds a game for a freaking 10 year prime playoff stretch.

Dude is making it seem like Dirk was a more refined Bargnani, shit is silly.

[CavaliersFTW]

People are unbelievably sensitive.

Kareem is someone who calls a spade a spade. That's partially why he's probably not considered for coaching his entire career since athletes have fragile egos - he'll tell it how he sees it. What he said about Dirk is not untrue, stop crying about it. He's an all-time great at ONE facet of the game. The rest? He's anywhere from serviceable, to good. Not all-time great tier.

Kareem is a GOAT tier player, he's ALLOWED to hold players to a higher standard. He was a better player for a 10 year stretch than Dirk ever was for a single season - because he was dominant at several facets of the game not just one. It should be no surprise he judges players to that kind of standard.

[CavaliersFTW]

It wouldn't be as annoying a statement if it wasn't so blatantly wrong. Like this is the shit you expect some casual fan who just discovered bballreference to say.

He was an above average defender in his prime.

Was a very good passer who consistently had some of the smoothest, most complex offenses ran through him.

Averaged 11 rebounds a game for a freaking 10 year prime playoff stretch.

Dude is making it seem like Dirk was a more refined Bargnani, shit is silly.
No he's not, you have no idea how he'd rank a Bargnani. He probably holds all players to an incredibly high standard - thus, very few would be showered with praise.

Why would a GOAT tier player treat other players who are clearly inferior to him in a state of awe like we fans do? The way he talks about players is exactly how i'd expect. He thinks, and rightfully so, that even players we consider great - aren't so great. He views the game from his pantheon of being greater than all but a VERY small handful of players to have ever played.

MJ thinks this way about other players. Wilt did. Oscar Robertson does. Bill Russell does.

What the hell do you guys expect? GOAT tier players were literally great at multiple facets of the game, of course they're going to hold other players to that standard.

[navy]

It wouldn't be as annoying a statement if it wasn't so blatantly wrong. Like this is the shit you expect some casual fan who just discovered bballreference to say.

He was an above average defender in his prime.

Was a very good passer who consistently had some of the smoothest, most complex offenses ran through him.

Averaged 11 rebounds a game for a freaking 10 year prime playoff stretch.

Dude is making it seem like Dirk was a more refined Bargnani, shit is silly.
No the quote in context didnt seem like that. He even used the word "like" a one trick pony instead of is a one trick pony .

[Pointguard]

Until you learn that comparing Dirk to the "regular big man" is foolish...you'll never get it.
Where did I do that? Are you drunk? You are the only person who has said "regular" do you just make up craziness and respond to it? The big superstars at power forward usually don't take the weaker cover. Its only Barkley and Dirk. All of the other big superstars, don't role like that.


Work ethic? Dirk's is legendary...again, why would Duncan remain such an incompetent ft shooter if he was working on that aspect of his game all the time? Why did Kareem never learn to shoot 3's? Imagine how good he would have been if he could hit 3's as well.
The completeness of their games show why its a silly comparison. You are talking about two guys that could lead their team in rebounding, scoring, blocks, assist, defense, FG% and control both ends of the court. Of course they are going to have a flaw. Duncan, Wilt and Shaq like most outstanding big men spent years - not hours at the FT line. Its a big man problem.


Insecure? Are you kidding? ESPN just destroyed you. Dirk ranked 17th all time...ahead of your boy KG. Its a weak operation. They don't have any consistency in anything they do. In my five years here and 10 years around I've seen ESPN basketball articles quoted maybe once a year and usually because they do the article for sales, not the insightful article. I'd like the board rankings better than anything they've produced. The Kobe rankings, is typical of their work. But I'll show their inconsistencies just as I do yours.


Are you doing okay? Like...these last 5 years have been pretty bad for you. Dirk now seen as better than KG by a lot of people (something you claimed was false)...and Rose has been an even bigger disaster than anyone could have imagined.
Why would I care about what other's think? ESPN which rarely gets quotes on kiddy sites. On Rose, when people get hurt that's life. I will never be the garbage that uses that as some leverage point to stand tall. I actually go to games and spend about a near stack on the night. So I like exciting players. I'll miss him if he doesn't play because there are only like six or seven exciting players, or players with moves you never seen before. I liked younger KG because you can feel his energy even pretty far up in the stands. If you just watch TV then I understand excitement not being a criteria. I loved watching Jordan and Magic. I like Curry's shot because it arcs different to me and his game has charisma. But I'll defend guys here because they can make a night. But its not personal for me. Unless they're a relative. But I love to argue when people talk nonsense to me.


I know you aren't doing good, but at least don't resort to non starters like the above.
Who said anything about non-starters, weirdo. Stop drinking.


You can't remain consistent because if you were...you'd be hammering the likes of Duncan and Kareem for not improving huge holes in their games if everything is on the table.
Insert Burp here.


Again, there is no difference. You can't go at Dirk for rebounding and not at Duncan for ft shooting...using the excuses...bigs aren't good at something.
Most great big men have a free throw problem. Most. And almost all of them rebound, almost all of them defended very well, except Dirk. Almost all of them blocked shots very well, except Dirk. And Kareem seen others who were great scorers get no attention because they lacked those qualities.


In that answer you don't realize that you've pinpointed exactly what makes Dirk the 17th best player of all time. He does things other bigs were not capable of...and looking at him through the standard model is a big mistake.

Dirk didn't create the model. A guy who lead the league in scoring for three years while averaging 14 rebounds per game did that. But you guys never talk about him.


Oh, and peak Wade was not two tiers better than Dirk. Not even sure peak Dirk was 06...but he pretty much equaled Duncan in a playoff series and beat him with a worse team and a coach literally 10 levels worse than Pop

So, as usual, just no...stop talking
Is it hard liquor? Wade spotted Dirk two games and then outscored him by like 14 ppg??? Was very close to out - rebounding him as well. Very different if it wasn't that drastic. And Wade plays great D. The next year was Dirk's best year statistically but he suffered in the playoffs bad. His two best statistical years and he's not top tier offensively. There are no years where you can say definitively say he was the best offensively. None. He salvaged a good year with an all time great playoff run. He played in an era where there were more great all around players than ever: Kobe, Shaq, KG, Duncan, Lebron, Tmac, Pippen and Wade (Anthony Davis too). Much more prolific scorers like Kobe, AI, Tmac, Durant and Curry all of which had more in their repertoire as well.

ESPN always has an agenda. And rarely have good Bball articles. He has no argument against six contemporaries Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Curry and Durant. A definite five players who are better than him offensively, his major strong suit. All of whom have scoring titles and at least a couple of definite years where they were the best offensively. Dirk doesn't have that. Dirk's whole top 20 thing is strange to me but its ok with me.

[Pointguard]

No he's not, you have no idea how he'd rank a Bargnani. He probably holds all players to an incredibly high standard - thus, very few would be showered with praise.

Why would a GOAT tier player treat other players who are clearly inferior to him in a state of awe like we fans do? The way he talks about players is exactly how i'd expect. He thinks, and rightfully so, that even players we consider great - aren't so great. He views the game from his pantheon of being greater than all but a VERY small handful of players to have ever played.

MJ thinks this way about other players. Wilt did. Oscar Robertson does. Bill Russell does.

What the hell do you guys expect? GOAT tier players were literally great at multiple facets of the game, of course they're going to hold other players to that standard.

This.
They were brutal on Kareem when he was winning like six MVP's. Wilt used to talk about how slow Kareem would take to get upcourt. He got on Kareem's rebounding and blocking shots when Kareem was a near league leader. He comes from an era where you hustle. Like you said Russell would have said the same thing. Jordan the same thing. Pippen the same thing.

[ArbitraryWater]

When looking at scoring, passing, rebounding, and defense, the ONLY thing Dirk was great at was scoring. While MANY of the other legends were great at three to all four of those facets.

So in comparison to many of the other great players, Dirk doesn't impact the game in as many ways. Rebounding wise, he was good to very good at times. But Dirk was NEVER really a dominant rebounder.

BUT with that said, Dirk was STILL a dominant player. And among the best alpha dog PF's of all time. And of course is the greatest shooting big man of all time. Peak Dirk was getting 25 points and 10 boards a night while being a matchup nightmare. So even though what Kareem said was somewhat true, Dirk was a BEAST at the most premium asset in the sport. And that's ALPHA DOG scoring! Plus he redefined his position on top of it!

Dirk was a great rebounder, one of the best playoff defensive rebounders ever, and a good passer :facepalm :facepalm

FOH all your posts end up with

ALPHA DOG SCORING!

[Euroleague]

Kareem simply said the truth. I don't see any reason why this is controversial.

[rmt]

No he's not, you have no idea how he'd rank a Bargnani. He probably holds all players to an incredibly high standard - thus, very few would be showered with praise.

Why would a GOAT tier player treat other players who are clearly inferior to him in a state of awe like we fans do? The way he talks about players is exactly how i'd expect. He thinks, and rightfully so, that even players we consider great - aren't so great. He views the game from his pantheon of being greater than all but a VERY small handful of players to have ever played.

MJ thinks this way about other players. Wilt did. Oscar Robertson does. Bill Russell does.

What the hell do you guys expect? GOAT tier players were literally great at multiple facets of the game, of course they're going to hold other players to that standard.

I agree with this. ATGs hold players to a high standard. Remember that for Dirk's major strength - KAJ is the all-time leader in that category in addition to being great in many other categories. And the person asking the question putting Dirk's fadeaway in the same category/breath as KAJ's skyhook, well, that's just asking for that kind of reply from KAJ.

I disagree with Milbuck. As far as I know, Dirk was NEVER considered an above average defender in his prime. He has always needed a defensive big man beside him, and Chandler fulfilled that role on their championship run.

[G-Funk]

Dirk should be top 15. he's a beast.

[bizil]

Where did I do that? Are you drunk? You are the only person who has said "regular" do you just make up craziness and respond to it? The big superstars at power forward usually don't take the weaker cover. Its only Barkley and Dirk. All of the other big superstars, don't role like that.

The completeness of their games show why its a silly comparison. You are talking about two guys that could lead their team in rebounding, scoring, blocks, assist, defense, FG% and control both ends of the court. Of course they are going to have a flaw. Duncan, Wilt and Shaq like most outstanding big men spent years - not hours at the FT line. Its a big man problem.
Its a weak operation. They don't have any consistency in anything they do. In my five years here and 10 years around I've seen ESPN basketball articles quoted maybe once a year and usually because they do the article for sales, not the insightful article. I'd like the board rankings better than anything they've produced. The Kobe rankings, is typical of their work. But I'll show their inconsistencies just as I do yours.

Why would I care about what other's think? ESPN which rarely gets quotes on kiddy sites. On Rose, when people get hurt that's life. I will never be the garbage that uses that as some leverage point to stand tall. I actually go to games and spend about a near stack on the night. So I like exciting players. I'll miss him if he doesn't play because there are only like six or seven exciting players, or players with moves you never seen before. I liked younger KG because you can feel his energy even pretty far up in the stands. If you just watch TV then I understand excitement not being a criteria. I loved watching Jordan and Magic. I like Curry's shot because it arcs different to me and his game has charisma. But I'll defend guys here because they can make a night. But its not personal for me. Unless they're a relative. But I love to argue when people talk nonsense to me.

Who said anything about non-starters, weirdo. Stop drinking.

Insert Burp here.

Most great big men have a free throw problem. Most. And almost all of them rebound, almost all of them defended very well, except Dirk. Almost all of them blocked shots very well, except Dirk. And Kareem seen others who were great scorers get no attention because they lacked those qualities.

Dirk didn't create the model. A guy who lead the league in scoring for three years while averaging 14 rebounds per game did that. But you guys never talk about him.

Is it hard liquor? Wade spotted Dirk two games and then outscored him by like 14 ppg??? Was very close to out - rebounding him as well. Very different if it wasn't that drastic. And Wade plays great D. The next year was Dirk's best year statistically but he suffered in the playoffs bad. His two best statistical years and he's not top tier offensively. There are no years where you can say definitively say he was the best offensively. None. He salvaged a good year with an all time great playoff run. He played in an era where there were more great all around players than ever: Kobe, Shaq, KG, Duncan, Lebron, Tmac, Pippen and Wade (Anthony Davis too). Much more prolific scorers like Kobe, AI, Tmac, Durant and Curry all of which had more in their repertoire as well.

ESPN always has an agenda. And rarely have good Bball articles. He has no argument against six contemporaries Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Curry and Durant. A definite five players who are better than him offensively, his major strong suit. All of whom have scoring titles and at least a couple of definite years where they were the best offensively. Dirk doesn't have that. Dirk's whole top 20 thing is strange to me but its ok with me.


Great post! People often forget about Bob McAdoo! I think McAdoo was the original 6'10 and up stretch PF. But McAdoo was ALSO a great rebounder. And a much better defender than Dirk. Peak wise, McAdoo was actually SUPERIOR to Dirk in my opinion! Among PF's, I think McAdoo is a top 5 caliber PF peak wise.

[CavaliersFTW]

Dirk should be top 15. he's a beast.
...if Dirk gets top 15, what does Bob Pettit get?

[references]

No he's not, you have no idea how he'd rank a Bargnani. He probably holds all players to an incredibly high standard - thus, very few would be showered with praise.

Why would a GOAT tier player treat other players who are clearly inferior to him in a state of awe like we fans do? The way he talks about players is exactly how i'd expect. He thinks, and rightfully so, that even players we consider great - aren't so great. He views the game from his pantheon of being greater than all but a VERY small handful of players to have ever played.

MJ thinks this way about other players. Wilt did. Oscar Robertson does. Bill Russell does.

What the hell do you guys expect? GOAT tier players were literally great at multiple facets of the game, of course they're going to hold other players to that standard.
if Dirk is a one trick pony then so his bill russell

[CavaliersFTW]

if Dirk is a one trick pony then so his bill russell
GOAT tier Rebounding, Elite/possibly even GOAT tier passing for a big, GOAT tier shot blocking/defense.

That's 3 GOAT tier 'tricks'. And he was to offense what Dirk is to rebounding. Not all-time great, but good. He had several NBA Finals over 20ppg, and one NBA Finals he set the STILL STANDING NBA Finals FG% record, when he averaged 18ppg at over 70% from the field.

[houston]

Great post! People often forget about Bob McAdoo! I think McAdoo was the original 6'10 and up stretch PF. But McAdoo was ALSO a great rebounder. And a much better defender than Dirk. Peak wise, McAdoo was actually SUPERIOR to Dirk in my opinion! Among PF's, I think McAdoo is a top 5 caliber PF peak wise.


Mcadoo is so overrated and Dirk was a better defender and better player than him.


all around game is overrated in basketball. Every Great player has flaws but Dirk was more than a one trick pony. He was dominat player Remember than objective to play basketball is to score.


:oldlol: @ Dirk MVP season his best season he had better seasons than that.

[bizil]

Mcadoo is so overrated and Dirk was a better defender and better player than him.


all around game is overrated in basketball. Every Great player has flaws but Dirk was more than a one trick pony. He was dominat player Remember than objective to play basketball is to score.


:oldlol: @ Dirk MVP season his best season he had better seasons than that.

How is McAdoo overrated?? GOAT wise, Dirk is obviously better than Mac. But peak McAdoo was a three time scoring champ and MVP. And how was Dirk a better defender than McAdoo? Mac's defense was held IN MUCH HIGHER REGARD than Dirk's ever was. If anything, McAdoo has become UNDERRATED as time has gone on.

[bizil]

Dirk was a great rebounder, one of the best playoff defensive rebounders ever, and a good passer :facepalm :facepalm

FOH all your posts end up with

ALPHA DOG SCORING!


YOU'RE a CLOWN!! Dirk's CAREER REBOUNDING AVERAGE is 7.9!! As a 7'0 PF!!! Duncan, Barkley, KG, Mailman, Petitt, and Hayes ALL SMOKE Dirk as a rebounder. Dirk's rebounding in the playoffs is 10.2 per game. Which is a very good clip. EARLIER in my post, I said Dirk was a good to very good rebounder. BUT IN THE GRAND SCHEME, Dirk wasn't a great rebounder. The numbers back up me and Kareem in that regard.

The only thing Dirk was truly great at was scoring. But that doesn't mean he sucked at other facets. IT JUST MEANS he wasn't as dominant ACROSS THE BOARD as many of the other great players. KG was a very good-great scorer, a great rebounder, a great defender, and great passer.

Peak KG was getting 24 points, 14 rebounds, 6 assists, and providing world class defense. Dirk was NOWHERE NEAR the all around threat KG was. But with that said, Dirk was such a unique and dominant scorer that it SUPERCEDED other aspects of his game.

[StephHamann]

Peak KG was getting 24 points, 14 rebounds, 6 assists, and providing world class defense. Dirk was NOWHERE NEAR the all around threat KG was. But with that said, Dirk was such a unique and dominant scorer that it SUPERCEDED other aspects of his game.

Dirk is the Steph Curry of PFs. He gets double teamed all the time even at age 38 and the other players can shine with him on the court. KG never made his teammates better on offense.

[nathanjizzle]

wrong. dirks a 2 trick pony. the 3 pointer and the post up fade away. when you can only do 2-3 things, you the luxury of mastering it.

[DMAVS41]

Where did I do that? Are you drunk? You are the only person who has said "regular" do you just make up craziness and respond to it? The big superstars at power forward usually don't take the weaker cover. Its only Barkley and Dirk. All of the other big superstars, don't role like that.

The completeness of their games show why its a silly comparison. You are talking about two guys that could lead their team in rebounding, scoring, blocks, assist, defense, FG% and control both ends of the court. Of course they are going to have a flaw. Duncan, Wilt and Shaq like most outstanding big men spent years - not hours at the FT line. Its a big man problem.
Its a weak operation. They don't have any consistency in anything they do. In my five years here and 10 years around I've seen ESPN basketball articles quoted maybe once a year and usually because they do the article for sales, not the insightful article. I'd like the board rankings better than anything they've produced. The Kobe rankings, is typical of their work. But I'll show their inconsistencies just as I do yours.

Why would I care about what other's think? ESPN which rarely gets quotes on kiddy sites. On Rose, when people get hurt that's life. I will never be the garbage that uses that as some leverage point to stand tall. I actually go to games and spend about a near stack on the night. So I like exciting players. I'll miss him if he doesn't play because there are only like six or seven exciting players, or players with moves you never seen before. I liked younger KG because you can feel his energy even pretty far up in the stands. If you just watch TV then I understand excitement not being a criteria. I loved watching Jordan and Magic. I like Curry's shot because it arcs different to me and his game has charisma. But I'll defend guys here because they can make a night. But its not personal for me. Unless they're a relative. But I love to argue when people talk nonsense to me.

Who said anything about non-starters, weirdo. Stop drinking.

Insert Burp here.

Most great big men have a free throw problem. Most. And almost all of them rebound, almost all of them defended very well, except Dirk. Almost all of them blocked shots very well, except Dirk. And Kareem seen others who were great scorers get no attention because they lacked those qualities.

Dirk didn't create the model. A guy who lead the league in scoring for three years while averaging 14 rebounds per game did that. But you guys never talk about him.

Is it hard liquor? Wade spotted Dirk two games and then outscored him by like 14 ppg??? Was very close to out - rebounding him as well. Very different if it wasn't that drastic. And Wade plays great D. The next year was Dirk's best year statistically but he suffered in the playoffs bad. His two best statistical years and he's not top tier offensively. There are no years where you can say definitively say he was the best offensively. None. He salvaged a good year with an all time great playoff run. He played in an era where there were more great all around players than ever: Kobe, Shaq, KG, Duncan, Lebron, Tmac, Pippen and Wade (Anthony Davis too). Much more prolific scorers like Kobe, AI, Tmac, Durant and Curry all of which had more in their repertoire as well.

ESPN always has an agenda. And rarely have good Bball articles. He has no argument against six contemporaries Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Curry and Durant. A definite five players who are better than him offensively, his major strong suit. All of whom have scoring titles and at least a couple of definite years where they were the best offensively. Dirk doesn't have that. Dirk's whole top 20 thing is strange to me but its ok with me.

I'll try to make this simple as you are getting lost again.

You keep saying things like:

"most big men don't guard the 2nd guy"

"most big men struggle with ft's"

You, without realizing it apparently, are making the case for why Dirk was so valuable. He wasn't like most big men. Most big men can't drain 3's at a historic rate, abuse people in the post, shoot lights out from the ft line, get doubled off the ball at 24 ft, have elite impact off the ball in both the pick and roll and spotting up, have an elite mid range and off the dribble pull up game, and destroy people in crunch time for something like 16 years.

You have to stop comparing Dirk to the standard model.

Again, saying Dirk should have been better at defense is the same thing as saying Kareem should have learned to shoot 3's and Duncan should have improved his inept ft shooting.

Of course those guys would all have been better, but what is the point of saying this? It's obvious...you could do it with almost any player.

As for the ranking stuff...think whatever you want. It's perfectly reasonable to rank Dirk over KG...as anyone objective or with a brain realizes. Until you learn that more well rounded does not equal better player...you'll be lost.

Now go back to thinking the Cavs would lose to the Hawks with a healthy squad last year...you dunce.

[IGOTGAME]

All this over someone sayin Dirk didn't dominate the NBA. Lol at how sensitive some people are

[Dragonyeuw]

YOU'RE a CLOWN!! Dirk's CAREER REBOUNDING AVERAGE is 7.9!! As a 7'0 PF!!! Duncan, Barkley, KG, Mailman, Petitt, and Hayes ALL SMOKE Dirk as a rebounder. Dirk's rebounding in the playoffs is 10.2 per game. Which is a very good clip. EARLIER in my post, I said Dirk was a good to very good rebounder. BUT IN THE GRAND SCHEME, Dirk wasn't a great rebounder. The numbers back up me and Kareem in that regard.

The only thing Dirk was truly great at was scoring. But that doesn't mean he sucked at other facets. IT JUST MEANS he wasn't as dominant ACROSS THE BOARD as many of the other great players. KG was a very good-great scorer, a great rebounder, a great defender, and great passer.

Peak KG was getting 24 points, 14 rebounds, 6 assists, and providing world class defense. Dirk was NOWHERE NEAR the all around threat KG was. But with that said, Dirk was such a unique and dominant scorer that it SUPERCEDED other aspects of his game.

We have to bear in mind that Dirk was a perimeter-oriented power forward. His style of play wouldn't lead to 'great' rebounding, but we know from 140 playoff games that during increased levels of competition, he's a double digit rebounder. I think that's more than good( which you did concede) considering my aforementioned point about his perimeter-oriented style.

Certainly looking at the sum of parts, KG brought more to the table. But even during his MVP season, and while he did improve in terms of 'clutch' scoring, Cassell and Sprewell were often the ones making the offensive plays at the end of games. And that came into play in Boston as well, where KG was the best 'all-around' player on the team, but Pierce and Allen were needed to close the games in clutch situations. KG was a very good scorer, not a dominant one even at his peak.

When I consider his value against Dirk's, I look at the fact that while Dirk wasn't the rebounder or defender, being an alpha level scorer is probably the single most important ability in basketball. That means you can fill in the gaps around that guy with quality role players and always be competitive. Dirk basically only needed a tough interior presence( Chandler), veteran PG( Kidd), streaky shooter( Terry) and tough defenders like Marion to bring home a title; he proved that in 2011. Prime KG on that team, as good *all-around* as he was, doesn't bring that title home IMO, not with the make-up of the team. Even looking at them now, Dirk at 37/38 is still a quality player, he didn't get voted in but he's still a star player. KG at Dirk's age was basically done as an impact player.

That all said, regardless of where you rank them, I don't think they're 4 places apart like ESPN has them ranked. Wherever one is, the other AT MOST should be 2 places behind.

[bizil]

We have to bear in mind that Dirk was a perimeter-oriented power forward. His style of play wouldn't lead to 'great' rebounding, but we know from 140 playoff games that during increased levels of competition, he's a double digit rebounder. I think that's more than good( which you did concede) considering my aforementioned point about his perimeter-oriented style.

Certainly looking at the sum of parts, KG brought more to the table. But even during his MVP season, and while he did improve in terms of 'clutch' scoring, Cassell and Sprewell were often the ones making the offensive plays at the end of games. And that came into play in Boston as well, where KG was the best 'all-around' player on the team, but Pierce and Allen were needed to close the games in clutch situations. KG was a very good scorer, not a dominant one even at his peak.

When I consider his value against Dirk's, I look at the fact that while Dirk wasn't the rebounder or defender, being an alpha level scorer is probably the single most important ability in basketball. That means you can fill in the gaps around that guy with quality role players and always be competitive. Dirk basically only needed a tough interior presence( Chandler), veteran PG( Kidd), streaky shooter( Terry) and tough defenders like Marion to bring home a title; he proved that in 2011. Prime KG on that team, as good *all-around* as he was, doesn't bring that title home IMO, not with the make-up of the team. Even looking at them now, Dirk at 37/38 is still a quality player, he didn't get voted in but he's still a star player. KG at Dirk's age was basically done as an impact player.

That all said, regardless of where you rank them, I don't think they're 4 places apart like ESPN has them ranked. Wherever one is, the other AT MOST should be 2 places behind.

Well said! GOAT wise, I have Dirk over KG. Peak value wise, I think Dirk vs. KG is ACTUALLY a matter of taste. I think u could go either way in that regard, even though I would choose KG. As u stated, the most PREMIUM asset in the sport is alpha dog scoring. Dirk has the edge on KG in that regard.

At his peak, Dirk was getting 25 points and 10 rebounds a night. So when I was pointing out Dirk's all around game, I was just responding to the OP's question. But peak Dirk was a very good rebounder. So I WOULDN'T call Dirk a one trick pony. At the same time, Dirk WASN'T as complete a player as many of the other great players.

[bizil]

Dirk is the Steph Curry of PFs. He gets double teamed all the time even at age 38 and the other players can shine with him on the court. KG never made his teammates better on offense.

I was mentioning Dirk's ALL AROUND GAME!!! I wasn't talking about HIS IMPACT scoring wise. Which OF COURSE is epic. Dirk has the edge on KG in that regard. But ALL AROUND game wise, KG has the edge.

I also DISAGREE that KG didn't make his teammates better on offense. KG was a MUCH BETTER PASSER than Dirk. SO MUCH SO he played as a point power forward OFTEN!! And in his early days, ACTUALLY played a lot of SF. And EVEN AT THAT POINT, played as a point forward at times. Dirk was NEVER on that level in terms of versatility!

[miggyme1]

I was mentioning Dirk's ALL AROUND GAME!!! I wasn't talking about HIS IMPACT scoring wise. Which OF COURSE is epic. Dirk has the edge on KG in that regard. But ALL AROUND game wise, KG has the edge.

I also DISAGREE that KG didn't make his teammates better on offense. KG was a MUCH BETTER PASSER than Dirk. SO MUCH SO he played as a point power forward OFTEN!! And in his early days, ACTUALLY played a lot of SF. And EVEN AT THAT POINT, played as a point forward at times. Dirk was NEVER on that level in terms of versatility!

you can tell which people on this forum that actually watch the game of basketball instead of watching certain players. KG AND DUNCANS CAREERS SH*T ON DIRKS......AND THE REASON WHY......BOTH WERE TWO WAY PLAYERS. END THREAD

[rmt]

you can tell which people on this forum that actually watch the game of basketball instead of watching certain players. KG AND DUNCANS CAREERS SH*T ON DIRKS......AND THE REASON WHY......BOTH WERE TWO WAY PLAYERS. END THREAD

That Curry (an elite offensive player) is 2 places behind KG on ESPN's top 100 list is a disgrace. People just don't value half of the game.

[bizil]

I think Dirk at PF as well as guys like Nique and Melo at SF get the one trick pony kind of opinions. IN ALL THREE CASES, I think that's incorrect. All three qualify as great scorers AND very good rebounders for their positions. Hell, I would consider Nique and Melo GREAT REBOUNDING SF's because they have averaged 7-9 boards, which is impressive for SF's.

The thing is they AREN'T as complete as many of the other legendary players. I think guys like Reggie Miller, Glen Rice, etc. are MUCH MORE one dimensional. But with that said, Reggie was still a great player. While Rice was a very good All Star kind of player.

[DMAVS41]

That Curry (an elite offensive player) is 2 places behind KG on ESPN's top 100 list is a disgrace. People just don't value half of the game.

Why?

Current Curry is better than any version of KG. I mean... I'd get the argument if you are talking about longevity, but you aren't.

People need to realize the value of what Curry is doing. This might be the best offensive season ever and so far is easily one of the greatest seasons ever.

Now, there is a lot left and the all important playoffs, but if Curry stays at this level through it all... It easily trumps anything KG ever did.

[Dragonyeuw]

Why?

Current Curry is better than any version of KG. I mean... I'd get the argument if you are talking about longevity, but you aren't.

People need to realize the value of what Curry is doing. This might be the best offensive season ever and so far is easily one of the greatest seasons ever.

Now, there is a lot left and the all important playoffs, but if Curry stays at this level through it all... It easily trumps anything KG ever did.

But it begs the question of how the rankings are being done. No doubt this is historic level offense we're seeing from Curry, but in terms of rankings it seems like what Durant has done in the last 3-4 years( specifically his MVP campaign) and what Curry did last year and even moreso this year, is being given weight over guys with accomplished full careers. In some cases peak appears to be valued, and in others the totality of their careers is being valued.

I don't really care if they choose to solely rank based on either, but that's not happening.

[bizil]

Why?

Current Curry is better than any version of KG. I mean... I'd get the argument if you are talking about longevity, but you aren't.

People need to realize the value of what Curry is doing. This might be the best offensive season ever and so far is easily one of the greatest seasons ever.

Now, there is a lot left and the all important playoffs, but if Curry stays at this level through it all... It easily trumps anything KG ever did.

That's the problem with ESPN's list. The criteria they use is VERY INCONSISTENT!! GOAT wise, OF COURSE Curry isn't on KG's level yet. Peak or best player wise, I got Steph #3 only behind Magic and Big O for PG's. So when it comes to these lists, ESPN HAS TO CHOOSE between GOAT or peak-best player-fantasy status. On that top 100 bullshit, they were shaky as hell.

[pastis]

But it begs the question of how the rankings are being done. No doubt this is historic level offense we're seeing from Curry, but in terms of rankings it seems like what Durant has done in the last 3-4 years( specifically his MVP campaign) and what Curry did last year and even moreso this year, is being given weight over guys with accomplished full careers. In some cases peak appears to be valued, and in others the totality of their careers is being valued. I don't really care if they choose to solely rank based on either, but that's not happening.

you are right. curry is too high, honestly i would have ranked him like top 35.

but where do you would rank curry after this postseason. with another all-nba first team, FMVP, MVP, Ring?

[feyki]

you can tell which people on this forum that actually watch the game of basketball instead of watching certain players. KG AND DUNCANS CAREERS SH*T ON DIRKS......AND THE REASON WHY......BOTH WERE TWO WAY PLAYERS. END THREAD

In that logic ; Baron Davis > Nash , Kemp > Reggie , Jerry Lucas > Oscar ..

[IGOTGAME]

But it begs the question of how the rankings are being done. No doubt this is historic level offense we're seeing from Curry, but in terms of rankings it seems like what Durant has done in the last 3-4 years( specifically his MVP campaign) and what Curry did last year and even moreso this year, is being given weight over guys with accomplished full careers. In some cases peak appears to be valued, and in others the totality of their careers is being valued.

I don't really care if they choose to solely rank based on either, but that's not happening.

The ratin don't make sense. Great post

[Pointguard]

I'll try to make this simple as you are getting lost again.

You keep saying things like:

"most big men don't guard the 2nd guy"

"most big men struggle with ft's"

You, without realizing it apparently, are making the case for why Dirk was so valuable. He wasn't like most big men. Most big men can't drain 3's at a historic rate, abuse people in the post, shoot lights out from the ft line, get doubled off the ball at 24 ft, have elite impact off the ball in both the pick and roll and spotting up, have an elite mid range and off the dribble pull up game, and destroy people in crunch time for something like 16 years.

I'm making the point about free throws to show you the commonality of the problem and how its of little significance it is in greatness. It doesn't surprise me that you think Dirk taking a weaker cover makes him unique in a good way. Do I need to dumb it down more. Almost all great coaches have said height near the basket is greatest commodity in the sport. Dirk is height away from the basket. Unique but not some new model to replace the old. The other great offensive big men were all at some point the best offensively the best in the league for years or more than Dirk. They were also better rebounders and better defensively.



Again, saying Dirk should have been better at defense is the same thing as saying Kareem should have learned to shoot 3's and Duncan should have improved his inept ft shooting. Duncan and Kareem were/are the best all around players ever and Kareem was a significantly better offensive player than Dirk. Their overall efficiency runs about the same so three point shooting wasn't worth it.


Of course those guys would all have been better, but what is the point of saying this? It's obvious...you could do it with almost any player.
Kareem was giving a standard for greatness - you are totally lost on that concept, even though he says it plain as day. It really applies to Dirk since he doesn't have a clear year where he is the best offensively with respectable rebound numbers. Sure you can break the mold if you show that you are the best in another way. Rick Barry had a better playoff run than Dirk. And another one of mythical proportion. He had great range and was really good at the free throw line. No 3pt line but he was a top tier scorer a couple of years. Shaqattack, Lazurus and myself are of the few who ever mention him.

[Dragonyeuw]

you are right. curry is too high, honestly i would have ranked him like top 35.

but where do you would rank curry after this postseason. with another all-nba first team, FMVP, MVP, Ring?

Honestly, that's tough. Right now with Curry, he's ranking based off what is becoming an incredibly high peak. So adding what you say above, you're looking at a 2 time champ, 2 time MVP. For all we know, something happens next year and he never wins either again. Where then do you place him? That's what makes guys like Durant and Curry really tough to properly rank, because they really haven't even been around that long and they're both coming into their prime. It's just hard for me to think they deserve to be ranked over someone like Wade who, although still playing, has a career's worth of achievements already.

[houston]

How is McAdoo overrated?? GOAT wise, Dirk is obviously better than Mac. But peak McAdoo was a three time scoring champ and MVP. And how was Dirk a better defender than McAdoo? Mac's defense was held IN MUCH HIGHER REGARD than Dirk's ever was. If anything, McAdoo has become UNDERRATED as time has gone on.


he was terrible defender and terrible teammate too. You saying this it like saying Melo is underrated. He had a unique game just like Dirk.

[bizil]

he was terrible defender and terrible teammate too. You saying this it like saying Melo is underrated. He had a unique game just like Dirk.

I never considered Mac a great defender. But young Mac IN COMPARISON to Dirk was a better defender. Young Mac averaged 3.3 blocks is a season before. But neither guy had defense that stood out.

[DMAVS41]

But it begs the question of how the rankings are being done. No doubt this is historic level offense we're seeing from Curry, but in terms of rankings it seems like what Durant has done in the last 3-4 years( specifically his MVP campaign) and what Curry did last year and even moreso this year, is being given weight over guys with accomplished full careers. In some cases peak appears to be valued, and in others the totality of their careers is being valued.

I don't really care if they choose to solely rank based on either, but that's not happening.

Oh I agree...my point was about someone acting like because KG played great defense...he automatically is better than a one way player.

And that just isn't true.

[DMAVS41]

I'm making the point about free throws to show you the commonality of the problem and how its of little significance it is in greatness. It doesn't surprise me that you think Dirk taking a weaker cover makes him unique in a good way. Do I need to dumb it down more. Almost all great coaches have said height near the basket is greatest commodity in the sport. Dirk is height away from the basket. Unique but not some new model to replace the old. The other great offensive big men were all at some point the best offensively the best in the league for years or more than Dirk. They were also better rebounders and better defensively.

Duncan and Kareem were/are the best all around players ever and Kareem was a significantly better offensive player than Dirk. Their overall efficiency runs about the same so three point shooting wasn't worth it.

Kareem was giving a standard for greatness - you are totally lost on that concept, even though he says it plain as day. It really applies to Dirk since he doesn't have a clear year where he is the best offensively with respectable rebound numbers. Sure you can break the mold if you show that you are the best in another way. Rick Barry had a better playoff run than Dirk. And another one of mythical proportion. He had great range and was really good at the free throw line. No 3pt line but he was a top tier scorer a couple of years. Shaqattack, Lazurus and myself are of the few who ever mention him.

Let's try the ultra simple;

1. Duncan and Kareem were better than Dirk...nobody is disputing this

2. When you give Duncan a pass for ft shooting, but go hard on Dirk for rebounding...you are creating a double standard. For starters, Dirk's rebounding was just objectively better than Duncan's ft shooting. Go look at career playoff rebounds per game and see how many are above Dirk that have played over 100 playoff games. Then go look at how many ft shooters are above Duncan in similar criteria...Duncan's ranking will be far worse.

You aren't every giving Dirk credit for the things he did that other bigs couldn't. You are always looking at what he couldn't do...not what he could. And you are picking the wrong things to go at as well...like rebounding...which was just objectively good for his prime.

See the double standard?

You put Dirk in the typical mold...give him no credit for being unique...then give other bigs passes for not doing the things Dirk did/does that makes him so great.

Again, you are an ignorant dunce that can't see how idiotic your posts are.

3. You can't continue to think of Dirk as your typical big...he had a unique game that consisted both of strengths and weaknesses compared to the traditional bigs. You failing to realize this is silly.

Just ask Pop;

I asked Pop about Kareem's "one-trick-pony" comment. "That doesn't sound like Kareem," Pop said, adding of Dirk...

I think he's magnificent. He's scary. You have to game-plan for him. He's one of the ultimate competitors of our game. He brings it night after night. I think he's a terrific competitor and player.

[97 bulls]

I think there's a cause/effect thing going on here. How is Dirk supposed to be this dominant rebounder when his strength was shooting the J? For goodness sake when are we gonna start taking context into consideration. In my opinion, Shaq was a relatively shitty rebounder based on his style and the role he played. But his overall rebounding stats won't show it.

[navy]

I think there's a cause/effect thing going on here. How is Dirk supposed to be this dominant rebounder when his strength was shooting the J? For goodness sake when are we gonna start taking context into consideration. In my opinion, Shaq was a relatively shitty rebounder based on his style and the role he played. But his overall rebounding stats won't show it.
Kareem or maybe it was Wilt said the same thing about Shaq. It's not a double standard, yall just over react to everything.

[miggyme1]

I think there's a cause/effect thing going on here. How is Dirk supposed to be this dominant rebounder when his strength was shooting the J? For goodness sake when are we gonna start taking context into consideration. In my opinion, Shaq was a relatively shitty rebounder based on his style and the role he played. But his overall rebounding stats won't show it.


actually they do show it. only led the league in rebounding one season I think. that's SH*TTY FOR THE MOST DOMINANT PLAYER TO DATE TO PLAY IN THE LEAGUE......HE SHOULD OF LED THE LEAGUE IN REBOUNDING FROM THE TIME HE STEPPED FOOT IN THE LEAGUE UNTIL ILL SAY THE YEAR HE JOINED CLEVELAND.

SHAQ is another great that under achieved. he should have did what Jordan did if not better....win at least 6 hell ill say shaq left about 5 rings on the table....put on weight and got sluggish.....shaq could easily have 9 or 10 rings....I cant name a bad team he played for.....like bad.....not average...im talking like 76ers bad...shaq never played on a horrible squad....at least not after 96....dude should have 9 or 10 rings easily.

[bizil]

I think there's a cause/effect thing going on here. How is Dirk supposed to be this dominant rebounder when his strength was shooting the J? For goodness sake when are we gonna start taking context into consideration. In my opinion, Shaq was a relatively shitty rebounder based on his style and the role he played. But his overall rebounding stats won't show it.

For starters, Dirk is a great player flat out! Arguably the 2nd GOAT PF. BUT there's nothing wrong with saying he ISN'T as complete as many of the legends. Bob McAdoo was a great shooting big man. AND he was a great rebounder too. Kevin Love is known as one of the best shooting bigs in today's game. AND he's a great rebounder. So while being a stretch big COULD cost u some offensive rebounds, the bottom line is Dirk wasn't a great rebounder. He was a very good one at best!

When it comes to Shaq, he was a GREAT REBOUNDER! But he wasn't like Rodman, Wallace, Russell, etc. But Shaq's numbers show he was a great rebounder at his peak. Could he have been an even more dominant rebounding? Sure!

[brain drain]

For starters, Dirk is a great player flat out! Arguably the 2nd GOAT PF. BUT there's nothing wrong with saying he ISN'T as complete as many of the legends. Bob McAdoo was a great shooting big man. AND he was a great rebounder too. Kevin Love is known as one of the best shooting bigs in today's game. AND he's a great rebounder. So while being a stretch big COULD cost u some offensive rebounds, the bottom line is Dirk wasn't a great rebounder. He was a very good one at best!

When it comes to Shaq, he was a GREAT REBOUNDER! But he wasn't like Rodman, Wallace, Russell, etc. But Shaq's numbers show he was a great rebounder at his peak. Could he have been an even more dominant rebounding? Sure!


The Kevin Love comparison is the perfect example how people misunderstand Dirk.

If you take a shallow look at box scores, you might arrive at the conclusion that Kevin Love also scored > 20 points , also scored on 3s and rebounded more. Which will lead some people to believe that he's as good as or even better than Dirk, after all he scores > 20pts and catches more rebounds, so he's more well rounded, right?

So Love should be able to lead a team to a string of 50 win seasons and carry it to a title, right?

[97 bulls]

For starters, Dirk is a great player flat out! Arguably the 2nd GOAT PF. BUT there's nothing wrong with saying he ISN'T as complete as many of the legends. Bob McAdoo was a great shooting big man. AND he was a great rebounder too. Kevin Love is known as one of the best shooting bigs in today's game. AND he's a great rebounder. So while being a stretch big COULD cost u some offensive rebounds, the bottom line is Dirk wasn't a great rebounder. He was a very good one at best!

When it comes to Shaq, he was a GREAT REBOUNDER! But he wasn't like Rodman, Wallace, Russell, etc. But Shaq's numbers show he was a great rebounder at his peak. Could he have been an even more dominant rebounding? Sure!
I'm not disagreeing. I'm just taking into consideration the type of player Nowitzki is. Thats why I used Shaq as an example. The man spent 90% of his time 5 feet away from the basket. The other 10 shooting FTs. And we're gonna poke a hole in Nowitzki s game? He'd be a fool not to do what he did.

[97 bulls]

Kareem or maybe it was Wilt said the same thing about Shaq. It's not a double standard, yall just over react to everything.
There's nothing wrong with what Kareem said. He is right to a certain extent. But why was he not averaging g 12 boards a game? Was it cuz he was a bad rebounder? Or because he spent most of his time on the perimeter. And mind you this is on both ends on the court cuz he rarely defended players in the post.

[DMAVS41]

For starters, Dirk is a great player flat out! Arguably the 2nd GOAT PF. BUT there's nothing wrong with saying he ISN'T as complete as many of the legends. Bob McAdoo was a great shooting big man. AND he was a great rebounder too. Kevin Love is known as one of the best shooting bigs in today's game. AND he's a great rebounder. So while being a stretch big COULD cost u some offensive rebounds, the bottom line is Dirk wasn't a great rebounder. He was a very good one at best!

When it comes to Shaq, he was a GREAT REBOUNDER! But he wasn't like Rodman, Wallace, Russell, etc. But Shaq's numbers show he was a great rebounder at his peak. Could he have been an even more dominant rebounding? Sure!

Of course there is nothing wrong with it. But Kareem said other things as well...like he wasn't dominant because he wasn't as complete as other players.

Which is just false. Many other far more complete players were nowhere near as dominant as Dirk.

This also exemplifies the sheer ignorance about what type of rebounder/defender/passer Dirk was throughout most of his career. Early on he was a terrible defender (first couple years), but after that he turned into an average or above average defender.

This is why I keep asking people (not you as I know where you stand) what more has to happen for Dirk to get credit with them? No, he wasn't the typical big, but that is what made him great.

He was great because he was a nightmare matchup his entire career...and then developed one of the most complete and dominant offensive games in NBA history both on and off the ball.

And, he worked his tail off to improve on defense and also notoriously busted his ass on the defensive glass. Just look at Dirk...look at his body type and strength...anyone saying he should have "learned" to defend and rebound is simply ignorant. Not only did Dirk learn, but he never had the capability to be Duncan on defense.

Conversely, Duncan could never have been Dirk on offense.

Players have different skillsets and strengths...Dirk played to his and while he's not the perfect player or even a top 10 player of all time...he's on the short list after that. And anyone thinking Dirk left something on the table in terms of his individual game because of work ethic simply doesn't know what the **** they are talking about.

[miggyme1]

For starters, Dirk is a great player flat out! Arguably the 2nd GOAT PF. BUT there's nothing wrong with saying he ISN'T as complete as many of the legends. Bob McAdoo was a great shooting big man. AND he was a great rebounder too. Kevin Love is known as one of the best shooting bigs in today's game. AND he's a great rebounder. So while being a stretch big COULD cost u some offensive rebounds, the bottom line is Dirk wasn't a great rebounder. He was a very good one at best!

When it comes to Shaq, he was a GREAT REBOUNDER! But he wasn't like Rodman, Wallace, Russell, etc. But Shaq's numbers show he was a great rebounder at his peak. Could he have been an even more dominant rebounding? Sure!


F*ck no.....

karl Malone
kg
kevin McHale
Charles barkley
tim Duncan...even though some consider him a center

[DMAVS41]

F*ck no.....

karl Malone
kg
kevin McHale
Charles barkley
tim Duncan...even though some consider him a center

After Duncan it's all debatable...Sorry

[bizil]

F*ck no.....

karl Malone
kg
kevin McHale
Charles barkley
tim Duncan...even though some consider him a center

GOAT wise and peak value are two different things. GOAT status is your resume. Dirk has accumulated a resume that has him arguably the 2nd GOAT PF. Me personally, I have Mailman #2. Peak wise, I would take Malone, KG, Barkley, and Duncan over Dirk.

[R.I.P.]

LOL. Dirk just pulled out the skyhook. :roll: :roll:

[DMV2]

LOL. Dirk just pulled out the skyhook. :roll: :roll:
gonna need a GIF or video of this. :lol

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

It was more of a swinging hook/running hook.....