Wade: Most Disrespected Superstar?

[scm5]

Can someone explain to me how Curry and Durant are ranked ahead of Wade on ESPN's Top 100 List?

Curry has only had two seasons (one being this one) that ranks up there with Wade's prime. They both have championships, one with an MVP one with a FMVP.

Durant?!? Wade has had seasons right up there with Durants' AND he has accolades like FMVP and a Championship.

[WayOfWade]

And cue Dubeta...

[Dr Hawk]

If you take ESPN's ranking seriously you will end up in a psychiatric

[TylerOO]

Carried by LeBron for two rings. Rigged finals for his other.

Hes a good player, but not elite.

[Showtime2001]

And cue Dubeta...
Dubeta would probably say that he isnt even top 100.

[Young X]

The correct answer is yes.

I remember I was watching Open Court and they didn't even consider him top 50. You had Shaq saying guys like Penny and T-Mac should rank higher. Wade's own former teammate saying this.

He got snubbed multiple times for All-NBA Defensive team selections.

Manu Ginobili had more MVP votes than him in 2011. One of Wade's best seasons.

Thomas, Durant, Curry all ranked above him for ESPN's top 100 list.

He's way too underrated, been saying this for years.

[Young X]

Carried by LeBron for two rings. Rigged finals for his other.

Hes a good player, but not elite.Wade was the best thing that ever happened to Lebron's career.

You should be grateful Lebron decided to join his team. Without Wade he'd be ringless right now.

[Marchesk]

Wade is higher than Durant all-time as it stands now. He's being seriously underrated. Dude is definitely top 30 all-time.

[Gileraracer]

Carried by LeBron for two rings. Rigged finals for his other.

Hes a good player, but not elite.

Thanks, saves me some typing

[SexSymbol]

Wade was the second best player in 11 behind Dirk.
He has a fmvp with an atg performance in the finals.
Has a few GREAT regular seasons.
He's easily better than Durant or Pippen all-time

[Akhenaten]

The Rodney Dangerfield of the NBA

The Curry thing I KIND of get because he's a champion aand he's so hot right now (even though he ABSOLUTELY should NOT be ranked above Wade) plus it's ESPN :oldlol: , the Durant thing is completely mystifying though.

ah well, just take solace in the fact that we know better Wade fans

[dubeta]

Lol why are we assuming that he was ever a 'superstar' in the first place?

[Dr Hawk]

Lol why are we assuming that he was ever a 'superstar' in the first place?

Mods

[Rose'sACL]

Lol why are we assuming that he was ever a 'superstar' in the first place?
i see that this place has not improved at all.
People here still have the balls to bitch about other forums.

[Jacks3]

Wade gets overrated by a ton of people, but he's definitely ahead of guys like Curry career-wise right now. That's a joke. Also, KG at 21?! :oldlol:

[Wade's Rings]

Very disrespected. His accolades don't look as impressive because he's missing All-NBA 1st Teams and All-D 1st Teams. '11 & '12 should've been 1st Team All-NBA years. '09-'12 Should've been All-D 1st Teams years. He has also been disrespected by Shaq, Barkley, etc.

[WorldWarriors]

Wade is definitely disrespected. And yes, Curry's on my team but Wade was better. I would have loved to see a team carefully cultivated around him like there was for Steph. But the Heat were in a win now mode and couldn't wait.

Don't get me wrong, Steph is a phenomenon but Wade was a beast. He got to the rim at will.

[dubeta]

Either way you slice it Wade only has 4 superstar seasons (2006, 2007, 2009, 2010).

There are many ATGs with FAR more superstar seasons than 4

Wade stans should be happy with his #27 ranking

[FKAri]

Once this generation passes people will start to forget about him and he'll become underrated. This happens to anyone who had to deal with injuries.

[tontoz]

Wade is injury prone and has a weak shot. Those are two pretty big negatives. When a shooting guard can't shoot it creates spacing problems.

His usage rate was very high but his efficiency hasn't been great. Wade's career ORTG of 110 isn't exactly setting the world on fire. His career best is 115. Clyde Drexlers career average was 114 and Drexler wasn't getting hurt all the time.

[97 bulls]

Wade is injury prone and has a weak shot. Those are two pretty big negatives. When a shooting guard can't shoot it creates spacing problems.

His usage rate was very high but his efficiency hasn't been great. Wade's career ORTG of 110 isn't exactly setting the world on fire. His career best is 115. Clyde Drexlers career average was 114 and Drexler wasn't getting hurt all the time.
Exactly.

[Wade's Rings]

Once this generation passes people will start to forget about him and he'll become underrated. This happens to anyone who had to deal with injuries.

Injures will help him be remembered as What-ifs. What if he doesn't get hurt in '05, '07, '13, etc.

[Wade's Rings]

Wade is injury prone and has a weak shot. Those are two pretty big negatives. When a shooting guard can't shoot it creates spacing problems.

His usage rate was very high but his efficiency hasn't been great. Wade's career ORTG of 110 isn't exactly setting the world on fire. His career best is 115. Clyde Drexlers career average was 114 and Drexler wasn't getting hurt all the time.

His driving ability opens up the floor for his teammates. It gets them open looks when he forces the defense to collapse.

Offensive Rating? :oldlol:

[AirBonner]

No. Lebron is easily more disrespected.

[G-Funk]

Wade was the second best player in 11 behind Dirk.
He has a fmvp with an atg performance in the finals.
Has a few GREAT regular seasons.
He's easily better than Durant or Pippen all-time
You would draft Wade ahead of Durant and Pippen??? No way.

[k0kakw0rld]

Carried by LeBron for two rings. Rigged finals for his other.

Hes a good player, but not elite.
Carried Shaq to a fourth ring, something Kobe, LeBron couldn't do.

[BasedTom]

Wade is injury prone and has a weak shot. Those are two pretty big negatives. When a shooting guard can't shoot it creates spacing problems.

His usage rate was very high but his efficiency hasn't been great. Wade's career ORTG of 110 isn't exactly setting the world on fire. His career best is 115. Clyde Drexlers career average was 114 and Drexler wasn't getting hurt all the time.
apparently shooting from midrange doesn't count

the things you learn on ISH :applause:

[PJR]

apparently shooting from midrange doesn't count

the things you learn on ISH :applause:

Can't ever listen to these type of dweebs. Never played competitive sports in their lives.

[Akhenaten]

You would draft Wade ahead of Durant and Pippen??? No way.

Wade won as the man and had a prolific playoff run while doing it, that club is the most exclusive club in the NBA. Pippen as your best player is simply not capable of a 28/6/6 50% playoff run on the way to winning a finals.

All other criteria are subjective (MVP, dpoy, fmvp, 1st team selections etc.), winning as the man in DOMINANT fashion is the holy grail. Pippen never had the capability, Durant has yet to prove he can do that.

Wade is 90% the scorer Durant is, twice the playmaker/passer, twice the defensive player. Wade's best regular season is EASILY better than Durant's best, his overall playoff career and best playoff run is EASILY and I mean EASILY better than kd's. The pippen thing is a joke to me.

For me it's a no brainer I draft Wade before those two, especially Pippen (you have to be joking), Pippen in place of Wade on the 09 or 10 Heat = 16 Sixer's. Wade is a FAR more complete player than Durant. I mean Jesus Christ they put Durant on Chalmers in the 12 Finals and Rio ROASTED him.

[Spurs m8]

F U C K . W A D E

[Taller than CP3]

More like the most forgotten.

He took the backseat to LeBeta and is paying the price for it.

He won more rings with Lebron than he did by himself.

He's just another Scottie Pippen.

[tontoz]

apparently shooting from midrange doesn't count

the things you learn on ISH :applause:


Midrange shots do count. Wade just sucks at making them.

http://bkref.com/tiny/P1Cvl

[TheBigVeto]

Wade is ranked too high in ESPN's list. He deserves all the disrespect because of his Dwhistlin antics.

[Wade's Rings]

Midrange shots do count. Wade just sucks at making them.

http://bkref.com/tiny/P1Cvl

So 21ft out is a midrange shot now? :oldlol:

[Derka]

In his prime, one of the nastiest off-the-dribble scorers I've ever seen.

[Akhenaten]

Midrange shots do count. Wade just sucks at making them.

http://bkref.com/tiny/P1Cvl

you understand that mid is short for middle right i.e. medium range

3 point shot is 23'9 lets round off to 24, divide in thirds (close, mid, long) means close= 0 to 8 ft, mid= 9 to 16 ft, long = 17 to 23'9

[Wade's Rings]

Wade won as the man and had a prolific playoff run while doing it, that club is the most exclusive club in the NBA. Pippen as your best player is simply not capable of a 28/6/6 50% playoff run on the way to winning a finals.

All other criteria are subjective (MVP, dpoy, fmvp, 1st team selections etc.), winning as the man in DOMINANT fashion is the holy grail. Pippen never had the capability, Durant has yet to prove he can do that.

Wade is 90% the scorer Durant is, twice the playmaker/passer, twice the defensive player. Wade's best regular season is EASILY better than Durant's best, his overall playoff career and best playoff run is EASILY and I mean EASILY better than kd's. The pippen thing is a joke to me.

For me it's a no brainer I draft Wade before those two, especially Pippen (you have to be joking), Pippen in place of Wade on the 09 or 10 Heat = 16 Sixer's. Wade is a FAR more complete player than Durant. I mean Jesus Christ they put Durant on Chalmers in the 12 Finals and Rio ROASTED him.

:applause: :applause:

To add on his '05 Run was great as well (outside of turnovers). 27/6/7/1.6/1.1 shooting 48%. 2 legendary series (statistically) and he was dropping 30/6/4 on 46% shooting on the Pistons through the 1st 4 Games of the series. His '11 Run was also great as he dropped 24/7/4/1.6/1.3 shooting 48% and with 3 great series vs the Mavs, Celtics, and 76ers.

[knicksman]

Well this is espn aka bran stans so they would do everything to prop up bran. From letting roleplayers win fmvp to discrediting his teammates

[tontoz]

you understand that mid is short for middle right i.e. medium range

3 point shot is 23'9 lets round off to 24, divide in thirds (close, mid, long) means close= 0 to 8 ft, mid= 9 to 16 ft, long = 17 to 23'9

Even looking at 9-16 feet Wade has 7 seasons shooting sub 40%. Currently shooting 31% from 9-16 feet. :oldlol:

Last year he shot 42% from that range. :bowdown:

[Akhenaten]

:applause: :applause:

To add on his '05 Run was great as well (outside of turnovers). 27/6/7/1.6/1.1 shooting 48%. 2 legendary series (statistically) and he was dropping 30/6/4 on 46% shooting on the Pistons through the 1st 4 Games of the series. His '11 Run was also great as he dropped 24/7/4/1.6/1.3 shooting 48% and with 3 great series vs the Mavs, Celtics, and 76ers.

Oh dude I can go on for days post Wade's prolific playoff series, 33/7/6 56 % in 2010 vs the Celtics. 30/7/5 53% vs Celtics in 11, 31/8/7 54% vs Wash in 05 without SHAQ

I mean Kevin Durant avg 34% from 3 on over 6 threes a game in his playoff career :biggums: This is his greatest strength! 3.3 TO to 3.8 ast:biggums: despite the fact WB hogs the hell out the ball and KD pretty much just chucks everytime he get's it.

Sorry ass defense, what the hell has KD done to put him in the convo with a Wade let alone put him over him?

I wont even entertain that Pippen shit.

[Akhenaten]

Even looking at 9-16 feet Wade has 7 seasons shooting sub 40%. Currently shooting 31% from 9-16 feet. :oldlol:

Last year he shot 42% from that range. :bowdown:

What are his career numbers from there, and how do yall parse stuff like that to get the stats?

[tmacattack33]

Yes.

And it is because he had Shaq and Lebron on his team when he won his 3 rings...so he was overshadowed.

And in between (2008 to 2011) his team was terrible and didn't do sh*t. So no one remembers those years for him...even though those were his best years physically.

[tontoz]

What are his career numbers from there, and how do yall parse stuff like that to get the stats?


I already posted the link. You can set the distance parameters to anything you want using "Play Index Plus" shot finder.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/

To get the career numbers you would have to do the math yourself since the site just shows season totals.

[Magic 32]

Anyone who plays with Lebron is disrespected

[greatest-ever]

The short answer is yes. People seem to think he was only great for one or 2 seasons in his career.

[boldarblood]

The only one that could have any argument is Durant, and even that is in my honest opinion not true. And I am not a fan of Wade at all. But I do respect him as a player, a current living legend. He's top 20-30 easy, if not higher.

Durant needs to do more, longer. Then you can make an argument for him.

Wade is underated in the court of public opinion.

[tontoz]

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/HuR88.gif (http://s56.photobucket.com/user/tontoz/media/HuR88.gif.html)

[PJR]

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/HuR88.gif (http://s56.photobucket.com/user/tontoz/media/HuR88.gif.html)

http://media2.policymic.com/7bd70c580b4cc9d4548a689158f7addb.gif

[Vragrant]

I really think it's the injuries have hurt his stature. If he had remained consistently healthy throughout his career this thread would probably not exist. Its only when he's healthy the average NBA fan is reminded of his greatness.

I'll tell you what, a prime healthy Wade is the most deadly perimeter player I've seen since Jordan, and I'd definitely take him over Lebron and Kobe for a playoff run without question. Wade is the same guy who torched Boston for 33ppg on 56% shooting. The same team that made Lebron visibly quit and fly to Miami the following offseason.


Wade ripped apart that vaunted mid 00s Pistons defense like it was nothing, 27 ppg on 62% shooting during that 06 playoff run. Before he got sick in the last game, he was putting up 30ppg on 69.5%! Kobe struggled mightily against that team. People just forget that stuff because he's been injured so often you are not consistently seeing him at his best.

As a result ESPN putting him in the same tier as the overrated Chris Paul or Durant, guys haven't won a damn thing.

Since MJ,I've never seen a perimeter player tear elite defenses apart like a healthy D Wade.

[Jacks3]

I really think it's the injuries have hurt his stature. If he had remained consistently healthy throughout his career this thread would probably not exist. Its only when he's healthy the average NBA fan is reminded of his greatness.

I'll tell you what, a prime healthy Wade is the most deadly perimeter player I've seen since Jordan, and I'd definitely take him over Lebron and Kobe for a playoff run without question. Wade is the same guy who torched Boston for 33ppg on 56% shooting. The same team that made Lebron visibly quit and fly to Miami the following offseason.


Wade ripped apart that vaunted mid 00s Pistons defense like it was nothing, 27 ppg on 62% shooting during that 06 playoff run. Before he got sick in the last game, he was putting up 30ppg on 69.5%! Kobe struggled mightily against that team. People just forget that stuff because he's been injured so often you are not consistently seeing him at his best.

As a result ESPN putting him in the same tier as the overrated Chris Paul or Durant, guys haven't won a damn thing.

Since MJ,I've never seen a perimeter player tear elite defenses apart like a healthy D Wade.

The 06 Pistons weren't even in the same universe as the 04 Pistons defensively, and the defensive environment in 2006 was A LOT easier for perimeter players than it was in 04 due to the hand-check rules.

[Magic 32]

Wade ripped apart that vaunted mid 00s Pistons defense like it was nothing, 27 ppg on 62% shooting during that 06 playoff run. Before he got sick in the last game, he was putting up 30ppg on 69.5%! Kobe struggled mightily against that team.

04 Pistons was on another level.

05-06 pistons slipped a bit with Flip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkxOW8GsbvU

[Vragrant]

The 06 Pistons weren't even in the same universe as the 04 Pistons defensively, and the defensive environment in 2006 was A LOT easier for perimeter players than it was in 04 due to the hand-check rules.

They were still elite, arguably the best defensive team in the league at the time. It was either them or the Spurs.

[Akhenaten]

The 06 Pistons weren't even in the same universe as the 04 Pistons defensively, and the defensive environment in 2006 was A LOT easier for perimeter players than it was in 04 due to the hand-check rules.

what about the 05 pistons?

[PJR]

The 06 Pistons weren't even in the same universe as the 04 Pistons defensively, and the defensive environment in 2006 was A LOT easier for perimeter players than it was in 04 due to the hand-check rules.

So every perimeter player was out there averaging 27 a game on 62% shooting against those Pistons in 2006?

Stfu...

[PJR]

Kobe stans like to remind everyone how much the 2004 Pistons were on "another level", only because Kobe played like dog shit against them. :oldlol:

Wade fried the Pistons. End of story.

[Magic 32]

So every perimeter player was out there averaging 27 a game on 62% shooting against those Pistons in 2006?

Stfu...


Kobe stans like to remind everyone how much the 2004 Pistons were on "another level", only because Kobe played like dog shit against them. :oldlol:

Wade fried the Pistons. Case closed.


Gilbert Arenas was 3-0 against the 06 Pistons.

Stats:

30.3 ppg, 7 apg, 3.6 apg, 2.3 spg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ab/34/12/ab341240db0b1e0dfbbb0fe251a63183.jpg

[DoctorP]

Wade should be higher than both Durant and Curry. Curry higher than Durant.

[PJR]

Gilbert Arenas was 3-0 against the 06 Pistons.

Stats:

30.3 ppg, 7 apg, 3.6 apg, 2.3 spg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ab/34/12/ab341240db0b1e0dfbbb0fe251a63183.jpg

I'm talking the playoffs, buddy.
Arenas never shot 62% for a playoff series in his life. Try again.


Only thing you proved was that Arenas was a good volume scorer in his prime. No shit.

He did drop 60 on Kobe's dome that year after all.

[Jacks3]

what about the 05 pistons?

They weren't either. Not even close. The 04 Pistons were the best defensive team in history...playing in the apex of the toughest defensive environment in history. lol @ Wade stans who think they're comparable in any way, shape, or form.

[Jacks3]

So every perimeter player was out there averaging 27 a game on 62% shooting against those Pistons in 2006?

Stfu...

Did i say it wasn't saying a great series? Stop being a sensitive bitch.

[Magic 32]

I'm talking the playoffs, buddy.
Arenas never shot 62% for a playoff series in his life. Try again.


Michael Redd averaged 27.2 ppg on 52.4% shooting in the playoffs against the 05-06 Pistons (31.3 ppg on 58% in the last 4 games).

I guess Redd is near historically great as well?

Take the loss kid.

[PJR]

So you mean to tell me Wade was shining in the playoffs as ROOKIE in the "apex of the toughest defensive environment" ? :eek:

Incredible player.

[Jacks3]

So you mean to tell me Wade was shining in the playoffs as ROOKIE in the "apex of the toughest defensive environment" ? :eek:

Incredible player.

Wade in the 04 playoffs put up 18/6/4/1 on horrible efficiency (98 ORTG).

Shining? :oldlol:


Good one.

[PJR]

Wade in the 04 playoffs put up 18/6/4/1 on horrible efficiency (98 ORTG).

Shining? :oldlol:


Good one.

Better TS% in the 2004 playoffs than Prime Kobe. Yikes.

[Akhenaten]

They weren't either. Not even close. The 04 Pistons were the best defensive team in history...playing in the apex of the toughest defensive environment in history. lol @ Wade stans who think they're comparable in any way, shape, or form.

how far from their 04 level would you say the 05 team is

[DMAVS41]

ESPN really under-rated him on that list.

A guy like Curry...even Durant...and certainly Stockton don't really have much business being ranked over Wade at this point.

I think Curry and Durant should eventually pass him, but not yet.

[Magic 32]

Better TS% in the 2004 playoffs than Prime Kobe. Yikes.

Talk about dodging.

Yikes.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Wade in the 04 playoffs put up 18/6/4/1 on horrible efficiency (98 ORTG).

Shining? :oldlol:


Good one.
In what world is a .455/.375/.787 line "horrible efficiency?"

[G-Funk]

Better TS% in the 2004 playoffs than Prime Kobe. Yikes.
Kobe top ten bro, deal with it.

[G-Funk]

In what world is a .455/.375/.787 line "horrible efficiency?"
Kobe's world

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Kobe's world
Kobe shoots .449/.330/.837 for his career. You were saying?

[TheMarkMadsen]

it really pisses me off that ESPN ranked Chris Paul on the same level all time as D-Wade

that is the biggest ****ing joke I have ever seen

Chris Paul hasn't done a damn thing. He's a good player but has he even gotten past the second round of the playoffs?

I'd say he's been a top 5 pg in the league for most of his career but that doesn't get you in the top 50

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Paul was overrated big time. Supposedly the ESPN rankings are based on a combination of peak and accolades...but Paul has zero accolades and a peak significantly below Wade's. Wade should have been higher, Paul should have been lower.

[dubeta]

it really pisses me off that ESPN ranked Chris Paul on the same level all time as D-Wade

that is the biggest ****ing joke I have ever seen

Chris Paul hasn't done a damn thing. He's a good player but has he even gotten past the second round of the playoffs?

I'd say he's been a top 5 pg in the league for most of his career but that doesn't get you in the top 50

Yet you same Kobe stans were begging for him in 2011 :oldlol:


I bet all of you wouldve taken Paul over Wade back then

[TheMarkMadsen]

Yet you same Kobe stans were begging for him in 2011 :oldlol:


I bet all of you wouldve taken Paul over Wade back then


Yeah I would have liked him on my team, but that doesn't mean I think he's better than Wade all time or even close.

Is that so hard to understand :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[G-Funk]

Wade won as the man and had a prolific playoff run while doing it, that club is the most exclusive club in the NBA. Pippen as your best player is simply not capable of a 28/6/6 50% playoff run on the way to winning a finals.

All other criteria are subjective (MVP, dpoy, fmvp, 1st team selections etc.), winning as the man in DOMINANT fashion is the holy grail. Pippen never had the capability, Durant has yet to prove he can do that.

Wade is 90% the scorer Durant is, twice the playmaker/passer, twice the defensive player. Wade's best regular season is EASILY better than Durant's best, his overall playoff career and best playoff run is EASILY and I mean EASILY better than kd's. The pippen thing is a joke to me.

For me it's a no brainer I draft Wade before those two, especially Pippen (you have to be joking), Pippen in place of Wade on the 09 or 10 Heat = 16 Sixer's. Wade is a FAR more complete player than Durant. I mean Jesus Christ they put Durant on Chalmers in the 12 Finals and Rio ROASTED him.

you did mention all the great things about Wade, but what about Pippen, how he was robbed the MVP and was a shot away of leading his team to the Finals without his Shaq or "Pippen". He is a better All-Around player than Wade is with All NBA defense. Pippen is a top 5 Defensive/Offensive player all-time.

Durant is probably equally defensively as Wade is, is a way better scorer from all over the floor, can rebound better. And he is a lot healthier than Wade is.

Sad truth is you are getting 1-3 Good years out of Wades career.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Paul was overrated big time. Supposedly the ESPN rankings are based on a combination of peak and accolades...but Paul has zero accolades and a peak significantly below Wade's. Wade should have been higher, Paul should have been lower.


I just thought of this. Maybe he's ranked so high because he does so well in the advanced stats that ESPN and their boys like Hollinger love to push. And they might have thought they would look stupid ranking a guy 50+ all time who shows up in the top 10 of their beloved PER and other advanced stats.

But IMO he doesn't deserve to be in the top 30. Being over Kidd, Nash and that close to Wade is legit LOL

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I just thought of this. Maybe he's ranked so high because he does so well in the advanced stats that ESPN and their boys like Hollinger love to push. And they might have thought they would look stupid ranking a guy 50+ all time who shows up in the top 10 of their beloved PER and other advanced stats.

But IMO he doesn't deserve to be in the top 30. Being over Kidd, Nash and that close to Wade is legit LOL
Advanced stats (PER specifically iirc) are the only thing Paul has going for him that can be construed as truly impressive. Their criteria makes no sense at all, you've probably got something there that advanced stats are the only reason why he's there.

I just don't see how he's ranked ahead of Nash who, much as I love him, was never close to Wade's peak. The whole list is a cluster****, we'll have to wait and see how much worse it can get.

[Wiltside]

Curry MVP and championship. > Wade FMVP + 2 additional rings > Durant MVP

[Ca$H]

Carried by LeBron for two rings. Rigged finals for his other.

Hes a good player, but not elite.

Bruce Jenner.

[Wade's Rings]

Talk about dodging.

Yikes.

So he's dodging because your teammate thinks Offensive Rating = efficiency? So TS% isn't efficiency?

[Dresta]

Wade is injury prone and has a weak shot. Those are two pretty big negatives. When a shooting guard can't shoot it creates spacing problems.

His usage rate was very high but his efficiency hasn't been great. Wade's career ORTG of 110 isn't exactly setting the world on fire. His career best is 115. Clyde Drexlers career average was 114 and Drexler wasn't getting hurt all the time.
wow, this is up there for one of the stupidest and most ignorant posts in ishs history.

Spacing?

The data shows him to be an elite floor-spacer:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356532


ORTG?

:facepalm

That's some stupid shit right there.

[Wade's Rings]

wow, this is up there for one of the stupidest and most ignorant posts in ishs history.

Spacing?

The data shows him to be an elite floor-spacer:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356532


ORTG?

:facepalm

That's some stupid shit right there.

Dudes will say anything to hate.

[Wade's Rings]

I just thought of this. Maybe he's ranked so high because he does so well in the advanced stats that ESPN and their boys like Hollinger love to push. And they might have thought they would look stupid ranking a guy 50+ all time who shows up in the top 10 of their beloved PER and other advanced stats.

But IMO he doesn't deserve to be in the top 30. Being over Kidd, Nash and that close to Wade is legit LOL

I actually agree with you. CP3 is better than Nash as a player but Nash would've gotten these Clippers to the Conference Finals IMO. I don't see him collapsing last year vs the Rockets and do the Clippers lose in the 2nd round with Nash in '14? Alot of people forget in that Game 5 the Clippers were up double digits in the last 5 minutes and blew that lead on top of CP3's Turnover and foul. Plus Nash was 1 horrible suspension away from a Title and a potential FMVP in '07.

[dubeta]

I actually agree with you. CP3 is better than Nash as a player but Nash would've gotten these Clippers to the Conference Finals IMO. I don't see him collapsing last year vs the Rockets and do the Clippers lose in the 2nd round with Nash in '14? Alot of people forget in that Game 5 the Clippers were up double digits in the last 5 minutes and blew that lead on top of CP3's Turnover and foul. Plus Nash was 1 horrible suspension away from a Title and a potential FMVP in '07.

I dont see Nash collapsing at 32 like Wade did against the Spurs

Does that make Nash >> Wade?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I dont see Nash collapsing at 32 like Wade did against the Spurs

Does that make Nash >> Wade?
Better than collapsing at 26 against the Mavericks. :confusedshrug:

[tomtucker]

Wade is top 10 all time......shit, Lebron would still be ringless had it not been for wade

[SpaceJam]

Better than collapsing at 26 against the Mavericks. :confusedshrug:

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Kevin-Garnett-Reaction-at-2013-Dunk-Contest.gif

[aj1987]

Wade is injury prone and has a weak shot. Those are two pretty big negatives. When a shooting guard can't shoot it creates spacing problems.

His usage rate was very high but his efficiency hasn't been great. Wade's career ORTG of 110 isn't exactly setting the world on fire. His career best is 115. Clyde Drexlers career average was 114 and Drexler wasn't getting hurt all the time.
Kobe's ORTG is 111. Does that make him a terrible offensive player?


Wade in the 04 playoffs put up 18/6/4/1 on horrible efficiency (98 ORTG).

Shining? :oldlol:


Good one.
Kobe in '04 - 51% TS
Wade in '04 - 53% TS as a ROOKIE

Dude was hitting gamewinners in the PO's, during his ROOKIE season. Come on, kids. Try harder.


Better than collapsing at 26 against the Mavericks. :confusedshrug:
Savage!

Rest in piss, LeBeta stan.

[tontoz]

wow, this is up there for one of the stupidest and most ignorant posts in ishs history.

Spacing?

The data shows him to be an elite floor-spacer:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356532


ORTG?

:facepalm

That's some stupid shit right there.


Do the words sample size ring a bell? Maybe you should read your own link.


"Lately, I've been seeing everybody start doing this more," Wade said as he turned his back pretending to be a defender gluing himself to a perimeter shooter. "And I'm just like, 'Damn, did I just start shooting 3s and I didn't know about it?'"

[tontoz]

Kobe's ORTG is 111. Does that make him a terrible offensive player?




No, it means his efficiency isn't that good. Kobe's shot selection has sucked his whole career. He takes a lot of 3s and long 2s that he shoots poorly. He is taking nearly 7 threes a game this year and shooting 27%. He is a career 33% shooter from 3.

[aj1987]

No, it means his efficiency isn't that good. Kobe's shot selection has sucked his whole career. He takes a lot of 3s and long 2s that he shoots poorly. He is taking nearly 7 threes a game this year and shooting 27%. He is a career 33% shooter from 3.
The dude's who have poor shot selection and bad offensive games have a combined 8 rings and are considered to be the 2 of the greatest SG's (after MJ, obviously) to ever play. Also, Kobe is freaking 37 years old and in his 20th season. It's kinda expected that he's going be be horrible this season.

Oh, and Kobe has a TS% which is only 2% lesser than MJ's. Is MJ inefficient as well?

[tontoz]

The dude's who have poor shot selection and bad offensive games have a combined 8 rings and are considered to be the 2 of the greatest SG's (after MJ, obviously) to ever play. Also, Kobe is freaking 37 years old and in his 20th season. It's kinda expected that he's going be be horrible this season.

Oh, and Kobe has a TS% which is only 2% lesser than MJ's. Is MJ inefficient as well?

So 2.8 is rounded to 2? OK. Jordan had 4 straight seasons with a TS of 60%. Kobe's career high was 58%.

And let's not forget that Jordan was out of the league for several years with his retirements. Both times when he came back his struggled. He was still in the league at age 40.

Plus Jordan didn't take 3s often, pretty common in that era, which works against him. However the 3 times when he did take 3 treys per game he shot them well. In this era it is a pretty safe bet he would have taken more 3s.

[aj1987]

So 2.8 is rounded to 2? OK. Jordan had 4 straight seasons with a TS of 60%. Kobe's career high was 58%.
:facepalm :facepalm

MJ's career TS% is 56.9% = 57%
Kobe's career TS% is 55.1% = 55%

Can you do the math now?

MJ from '92-'98 had a TS% of 56%. 53% TS in '98. Historically bad for an MVP.


And let's not forget that Jordan was out of the league for several years with his retirements. Both times when he came back his struggled. He was still in the league at age 40.
What does that have to do with efficiency? Kobe is in his 20th season now. Kobe has played over 3 whole 82 game seasons worth of games more than MJ.


Plus Jordan didn't take 3s often, pretty common in that era, which works against him. However the 3 times when he did take 3 treys per game he shot them well. In this era it is a pretty safe bet he would have taken more 3s.
If's and but's. Got any actual FACTS or do you want to speculate more?

Getting off topic. My question still stands. Kobe has a career TS% of 55% and MJ's is 57%. Is MJ inefficient?

Stop reaching, kid. Hold this L and move on. Using ORtg to evaluate a players' offensive capabilities. Dumbass.

[Milbuck]

Funny how "inefficient" Kobe took Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Chris Mihm, Brian Cook, Devean George and Sasha Vujacic to the playoffs with the 8th ranked offense. That team struggles to win 15 games without Kobe and yet he has them as a top 10 offense in the league.

Also funny how inefficient Kobe, the second he gets a competent 2nd option, builds fantastic chemistry with him offensively and gets to 3 straight finals and wins 2 rings/FMVPs leading top 3 offenses in 2/3 of those years.

BUT LOL CHUCKBE ORTG

[Akhenaten]

Do the words sample size ring a bell? Maybe you should read your own link.

No maybe you should enroll in a remedial reading comprehension course, he's saying his defender is face-guarding him I.e. "turning his back" ignoring any help responsibility to stay glued to him as if he were a prolific shooter.

Jesus Christ man :facepalm

A common theme I notice with Wade detractors...cretinism

[Giaodollo]

However the 3 times when he did take 3 treys per game he shot them well. In this era it is a pretty safe bet he would have taken more 3s.


Whereas two of those years the line was shortened.:rolleyes:

[tontoz]

:Stop reaching, kid. Hold this L and move on. Using ORtg to evaluate a players' offensive capabilities. Dumbass.


TS doesn't take into account things like rebounding and turnovers. ORTG does. But if you don't like ORTG you can use WS, +/-, VORP, they all have Jordan ahead of Kobe.

Both guys had shot selection issues. Jordan didn't take 3s most years and that can certainly be used as a knock against him.

[tontoz]

No maybe you should enroll in a remedial reading comprehension course, he's saying his defender is face-guarding him I.e. "turning his back" ignoring any help responsibility to stay glued to him as if he were a prolific shooter.

Jesus Christ man :facepalm

A common theme I notice with Wade detractors...cretinism

Did you even read the link? Wade himself said it was something that happened "lately". He adjusted his off the ball game after he started playing with Lebron and that is why teams changed the way they play him off the ball.

The article makes no mention of all the seasons before he played with Lebron, or after Lebron left.

[aj1987]

TS doesn't take into account things like rebounding and turnovers. ORTG does. But if you don't like ORTG you can use WS, +/-, VORP, they all have Jordan ahead of Kobe.

Both guys had shot selection issues. Jordan didn't take 3s most years and that can certainly be used as a knock against him.
Jesus Christ! I never said Kobe was better than MJ, you retard. Just pointing out that you using ORtg to evaluate a players offense is just flat out stupid.

I really can't understand how you made it into a Kobe vs MJ debate. :facepalm

1. ORtg is a TEAM stat.
2. TS is a good tool to measure efficiency.
3. ORtg is NOT used to measure efficiency.

[tontoz]

Jesus Christ! I never said Kobe was better than MJ, you retard. Just pointing out that you using ORtg to evaluate a players offense is just flat out stupid.

I really can't understand how you made it into a Kobe vs MJ debate. :facepalm

1. ORtg is a TEAM stat.
2. TS is a good tool to measure efficiency.
3. ORtg is NOT used to measure efficiency.

1. ORTG is a team and individual stat.
2. TS is a good tool to measure SHOOTING efficiency
3. ORTG definition-Points produced (individual) or points scored (team) per 100 possessions.


TS doesn't take into account assists, turnovers etc. ORTG does

*awaits inevitable ad hominem nonsense*

[aj1987]

1. ORTG is a team and individual stat.
2. TS is a good tool to measure SHOOTING efficiency
3. WRONG

1. :facepalm . The math might be a bit difficult for you tiny mind, but have a look: Individual ORtg Calculation (http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html).
2. SCORING efficiency.
3. :facepalm :facepalm

[Chadwin]

Wade is injury prone and has a weak shot. Those are two pretty big negatives. When a shooting guard can't shoot it creates spacing problems.

His usage rate was very high but his efficiency hasn't been great. Wade's career ORTG of 110 isn't exactly setting the world on fire. His career best is 115. Clyde Drexlers career average was 114 and Drexler wasn't getting hurt all the time.

Yep. Attendance is part of the grade. He missed a lot of games in 06-07, 07-08, 11-12 and 13-14.

[Jacks3]

No, it means his efficiency isn't that good. Kobe's shot selection has sucked his whole career. He takes a lot of 3s and long 2s that he shoots poorly. He is taking nearly 7 threes a game this year and shooting 27%. He is a career 33% shooter from 3.
So much fail. Kobe put up strong effiecny his entire career prior to the achillies injury. From 96-13 he had a career numbers of 56% Ts and a ortg of 112 and those numbers are deflated by the fact that he spent a huge chunk of that time (98-2004) playing in the best and toughest defenive environment in NBA history. League-average ts/ortg numbers were signifantly lower back then. He shot 34% from three over his 10 year prime. Also "poor" at long twos? What? His mid-range numbers were well above league-average on huge volume. You have no idea what you're talking about.

[tontoz]

So much fail. Kobe put up strong effiecny his entire career prior to the achillies injury. From 96-13 he had a career numbers of 56% Ts and a ortg of 112 and those numbers are deflated by the fact that he spent a huge chunk of that time (98-2004) playing in the best and toughest defenive environment in NBA history. League-average ts/ortg numbers were signifantly lower back then. He shot 34% from three over his 10 year prime. Also "poor" at long twos? What? His mid-range numbers were well above league-average on huge volume. You have no idea what you're talking about.


Kobe wasn't just taking midrange jumpers. He was taking a ton of long 2s. looking at shots from 10-22 feet he had only 4 seasons shooting 44%+. That would be like shooting 29% from 3.

http://bkref.com/tiny/VLCci

[kshutts1]

In terms of ranking?

AI, Pettit, Oscar, Mikan, Cousy... all of them are arguably more "disrespected" than Wade.

[Wade's Rings]

Oh dude I can go on for days post Wade's prolific playoff series, 33/7/6 56 % in 2010 vs the Celtics. 30/7/5 53% vs Celtics in 11, 31/8/7 54% vs Wash in 05 without SHAQ

I mean Kevin Durant avg 34% from 3 on over 6 threes a game in his playoff career :biggums: This is his greatest strength! 3.3 TO to 3.8 ast:biggums: despite the fact WB hogs the hell out the ball and KD pretty much just chucks everytime he get's it.

Sorry ass defense, what the hell has KD done to put him in the convo with a Wade let alone put him over him?

I wont even entertain that Pippen shit.

Wade is a much better Playoff & Finals Performer than Durant.

[GrapeApe]

Wade has always been underrated by the media. A big reason for that is the media had a predetermined narrative involving Lebron. When Wade exploded in 2005 it's almost as if the media was caught completely off guard (pun intended, hehe) and they never quite recovered. There wasn't supposed to be another player in the mix with Lebron, and when Wade forced his way in there the media didn't know how to handle it. Wade's meteoric rise to superstardom took everyone by surprise. I think most people knew he would be very good, but by the 2005 playoffs it was becoming clear that he was a HOF caliber player.

That being said, Wade is highly respected by coaches and his NBA contemporaries. Coaches and former players were starting to mention him possibly being the 3rd greatest SG ever as early as 2010. When all is said and done, Wade's combination of career averages, career totals, individual accolades, team accolades, and peak play will have him as one of the top 20 greatest players of all time. Despite being somewhat underrated by the media, his resume will speak for itself.

[Optimus Prime]

The only one who disrespected Wade is LeBeta with his Finals performance.

http://i.imgur.com/pSngI.jpg

[red1]

Absolutely. Peak on par with the top-tier GOATs and the hardware to show for it. Finals mvp and multiple championships is not a joke and should CERTAINLY rank him above players like curry and durant.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Absolutely. Peak on par with the top-tier GOATs


this is where I disagree

GOAT tier peaks were consistent and sustained for over a long number of years, some for an entire decade.

Wade only had like 3 consecutive years (09-11) where he was playing at that level and not missing 40 games every year.

Great in 06, injured in 07, 08, great in 09, great in 10, great in 11 and then he took too much of a backseat to Lebron to really be considered great in an all time GOAT sense for 2012.

[red1]

this is where I disagree

GOAT tier peaks were consistent over a long number of years, some for an entire decade.

Wade only had like 3 consecutive years (09-11) where he was playing at that level and not missing 40 games every year.

Great in 06, injured in 07, 08, great in 09, great in 10, great in 11 and then he took too much of a backseat to Lebron to really be considered great in an all time GOAT sense for 2012.
I know what you are saying but I intentionally used the word peak instead of prime. One season can be a peak. One playoff run can be a peak. Make sense? Even despite that, he still he had an amazing prime and there is no reason why a durant or a curry should be ranked over him at this time.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I know what you are saying but I intentionally used the word peak instead of prime. One season can be a peak. One playoff run can be a peak. Make sense? Even despite that, he still he had an amazing prime and there is no reason why a durant or a curry should be ranked over him at this time.


that is just semantics, he didn't have the same consistent level of greatness as other all time greats (partially due to injuries) and that is why he ranks where he does.

Although I do feel like ESPN underrated him a little, especially considering who they ranked around him/below him.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Who Wade was ranked around was the biggest problem for me. I have him as a top 25 player, so the placement wasn't that bad, but to be behind players like Curry and Durant and near players like Paul was ridiculous.

[red1]

that is just semantics, he didn't have the same consistent level of greatness as other all time greats (partially due to injuries) and that is why he ranks where he does.

Although I do feel like ESPN underrated him a little, especially considering who they ranked around him/below him.
What are you even arguing. No it is not semantics, it is a perfectly valid distinction. Regardless you agreed with my point. He absolutely is the most underrated superstar.

[GrapeApe]

The injuries, though certainly not his fault, are the main knock on him in terms of his all-time ranking. His prime may have been relatively short when compared to some of the other all-time greats, but for his career he's still averaging 24/6/5/2/1 on 49% with a 25 PER. You can't put up those type of numbers without being great for a long time (he's also played 150+ playoff games). His longevity is turning out to be pretty solid and his career totals will end up being very impressive. As I mentioned before, his resume will be top 20 when he retires.

[Akhenaten]

this is where I disagree

GOAT tier peaks were consistent and sustained for over a long number of years, some for an entire decade.

Wade only had like 3 consecutive years (09-11) where he was playing at that level and not missing 40 games every year.

Great in 06, injured in 07, 08, great in 09, great in 10, great in 11 and then he took too much of a backseat to Lebron to really be considered great in an all time GOAT sense for 2012.

gotta include 05, especially what he did in the playoffs

[WadeStan]

Who Wade was ranked around was the biggest problem for me. I have him as a top 25 player, so the placement wasn't that bad, but to be behind players like Curry and Durant and near players like Paul was ridiculous.

Agree with this. Paul's playoff career is full of chokes and underachievement.

[Wade's Rings]

The injuries, though certainly not his fault, are the main knock on him in terms of his all-time ranking. His prime may have been relatively short when compared to some of the other all-time greats, but for his career he's still averaging 24/6/5/2/1 on 49% with a 25 PER. You can't put up those type of numbers without being great for a long time (he's also played 150+ playoff games). His longevity is turning out to be pretty solid and his career totals will end up being very impressive. As I mentioned before, his resume will be top 20 when he retires.

Injuries hurt the most because he has 2 Finals Runs if healthy in '05 & '07. Those years would have been crucial. He has a chance to win 3 Finals MVPs and 3-peat as the man in his 1st 4 years in the League. That would have been an insane start to Career essentially having you Top 20 in your 1st 4 Years.

This is also why Bron's '11 choke hurts him so much. Even with his injuries a 2nd Finals MVP and he's regarded as Top 15 All-Time and the narratives about "Bron having to lead for us to win" wouldn't be said. Right now he would be pushing for a Potential Top 10 spot or to lie outside the 11-13 range.

[TheMarkMadsen]

What are you even arguing. No it is not semantics, it is a perfectly valid distinction. Regardless you agreed with my point. He absolutely is the most underrated superstar.


you said his peak is on the level of top GOAT tier players. It isn't. Because guys like Jordan, Kareem, sustained their peak level for like an entire decade.

[GrapeApe]

Injuries hurt the most because he has 2 Finals Runs if healthy in '05 & '07. Those years would have been crucial. He has a chance to win 3 Finals MVPs and 3-peat as the man in his 1st 4 years in the League. That would have been an insane start to Career essentially having you Top 20 in your 1st 4 Years.

This is also why Bron's '11 choke hurts him so much. Even with his injuries a 2nd Finals MVP and he's regarded as Top 15 All-Time and the narratives about "Bron having to lead for us to win" wouldn't be said. Right now he would be pushing for a Potential Top 10 spot or to lie outside the 11-13 range.

No doubt, and he might have also won an MVP in 2007. He was playing at a ridiculous level before the shoulder injury (around 29/8/6 on 50% and a 30+ PER) He ended up leading the league in PER that season despite his numbers dropping considerably when he attempted to return. That's how good he was through the all-star break. As great as he was in 2009, I think 2008 would have been his absolute peak season.

[Micku]

1. ORTG is a team and individual stat.
2. TS is a good tool to measure SHOOTING efficiency
3. ORTG definition-Points produced (individual) or points scored (team) per 100 possessions.


TS doesn't take into account assists, turnovers etc. ORTG does

*awaits inevitable ad hominem nonsense*

Scoring efficiency, instead of shooting efficiency. Nit pick. You can be a great shooter and still have a less TS than a person who isn't as good as a shooter as you. Deandre Jordan has a 63.4% TS currently, and his crap at shooting. And there other instances that are similar to this.

Since TS% take account in FT, 3pt and FG then everything counts even when the defense isn't active. eFG does this better when the defense is active, but TS% shows how efficient a scorer you are. You can have a crappy night at shooting from the field, but you're great at the FT line and decent at the 3. So, you'll get your points no matter what. Since FT don't take account of the FGA unless it's an "and one".


this is where I disagree

GOAT tier peaks were consistent and sustained for over a long number of years, some for an entire decade.

Wade only had like 3 consecutive years (09-11) where he was playing at that level and not missing 40 games every year.

Great in 06, injured in 07, 08, great in 09, great in 10, great in 11 and then he took too much of a backseat to Lebron to really be considered great in an all time GOAT sense for 2012.


Isn't that prime instead of peak? Peak means absolute best. Prime is normally referring to keeping a high level of play over a period of time. Like Shaq's peak is in 2000. His prime started in the 90s and ended in the mid 00s.

So, Wade's abosulte best is probably 09. His prime might be 09-11. But 06 and 07 pre injury were pretty good as well.

[red1]

you said his peak is on the level of top GOAT tier players. It isn't. Because guys like Jordan, Kareem, sustained their peak level for like an entire decade.
Did you not read my earlier post? Peak is not prime. Stop arguing yourself in circles.

[Wade's Rings]

No doubt, and he might have also won an MVP in 2007. He was playing at a ridiculous level before the shoulder injury (around 29/8/6 on 50% and a 30+ PER) He ended up leading the league in PER that season despite his numbers dropping considerably when he attempted to return. That's how good he was through the all-star break. As great as he was in 2009, I think 2008 would have been his absolute peak season.

Plus he missed out on All-NBA 1st Teams & All-D 1st Teams (Kobe and Wade played amazing in '08 so who knows if he makes them) and 2 more All-Time great Seasons.

[dubeta]

Plus he missed out on All-NBA 1st Teams & All-D 1st Teams (Kobe and Wade played amazing in '08 so who knows if he makes them) and 2 more All-Time great Seasons.

He wouldnt have gotten them those years

[Wade's Rings]

Isn't that prime instead of peak? Peak means absolute best. Prime is normally referring to keeping a high level of play over a period of time. Like Shaq's peak is in 2000. His prime started in the 90s and ended in the mid 00s.

So, Wade's abosulte best is probably 09. His prime might be 09-11. But 06 and 07 pre injury were pretty good as well.

Don't forget '05 & '12. His best Season is '09.