Heated Chandler Parsons: Responds to Kareem's criticism on Dirk "One Trick Pony"

[Draz]

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/924/VpIyKO.png (https://imageshack.com/i/poVpIyKOp)


Chandler Parsons on Kareem's criticism of Dirk: "Carried franchise for almost 20 years, Finals MVP, regular season MVP, 6th all-time? Wish I was a 1-trick pony."

[pastis]

even better is Dirks response. he is just so nice and polite.
Dirk is just pure german. love it:cheers:

our blonde germanic warrior :bowdown:

[navy]

All that means is that he had a pretty good trick.

[Jud]

[QUOTE]AUDIENCE MEMBER: I have two quick questions. One is, who has had a better career, Kobe Bryant or Tim Duncan? The other question is, do you think Dirk Nowitzki

[feyki]

BANG ..

Kareem should apologize .

[Akrazotile]

What did he say that was false?


I agree that in context it wasnt as bad as the "one trick pony" soundbite made it seem. Still, I think that by tilting his appraisal of Dirk more toward criticism than praise, it appears as tho he doesnt have the same respect for Dirk's game that the rest of us do. And I think that's what surprised a lot of people (altho not really since it's Kareem).

[ArbitraryWater]

:rockon:

[navy]

I agree that in context it wasnt as bad as the "one trick pony" soundbite made it seem. Still, I think that by tilting his appraisal of Dirk more toward criticism than praise, it appears as tho he doesnt have the same respect for Dirk's game that the rest of us do. And I think that's what surprised a lot of people (altho not really since it's Kareem).
No. Kareem is a clearly racist.

[Dr Seuss]

Still, I think that by tilting his appraisal of Dirk more toward criticism than praise, it appears as tho he doesnt have the same respect for Dirk's game that the rest of us do. And I think that's what surprised a lot of people (altho not really since it's Kareem).

agree with this is full. we (society) are a very sensitive bunch, in this day and age

[kennethgriffin]

kareems response - "what does carrying a franchise and being an mvp, or 6th all time scorer have to do with being an all around player. how many defensive teams has he made? how many 10+ rebounding seasons has he had? how many times has he averaged over 4 assists? how many times has he averaged over 2 blocks?... 0... 0....0.... and 0"

[Funktion]

Kareems always been standoffish and polarizing. Try asking Barry Bonds his thoughts on other players, or Ty Cobb.

[DirkNowitzki41]

:oldlol: :oldlol: CP destroying the old hag

[feyki]

kareems response - "what does carrying a franchise and being an mvp, or 6th all time scorer have to do with being an all around player. how many defensive teams has he made? how many 10+ rebounding seasons has he had? how many times has he averaged over 3 assists? how many times has he averaged over 1 block?... 0... 0....0.... and 0"

Huh?

He has 10+rebounds , 3+assists and 1+ steals and blocks many times in playoffs .

[kennethgriffin]

Defensive teams?

Kareem = 11
Dirk = 0


10+ rebounding seasons?

Kareem = 12
Dirk = 0


averaged over 4 assists

Kareem = 5
Dirk = 0


averaged over 2 blocks?

Kareem = 12
Dirk = 0

[DirkNowitzki41]

Huh?

He has 10+rebounds , 3+assists and 1+ steals and blocks many times in playoffs .

kennethgriffin is an idiot. as proven by his post history over the years. dont take him seriously.

[kennethgriffin]

Huh?

He has 10+rebounds , 3+assists and 1+ steals and blocks many times in playoffs .


a) i meant to put "averaged 4+ assists and 2+ blocks.. my bad


b) playoff averages dont count since they can be as small as a 4 game sample..

[kennethgriffin]

kennethgriffin is an idiot. as proven by his post history over the years. dont take him seriously.

Defensive teams?

Kareem = 11
Dirk = 0


10+ rebounding seasons?

Kareem = 12
Dirk = 0


averaged over 4 assists

Kareem = 5
Dirk = 0


averaged over 2 blocks?

Kareem = 12
Dirk = 0



suck it

:roll:

[kennethgriffin]

i'm white and even i can admit dirk was a 1 trick pony


kareem is 100% correct. dirk was great. hes a top 20 or so player all time just on his offense alone


but thats all he did

[Papaya Petee]

How many times has Kobe shot 47% FG in his career?

0

How many times has Dirk?

10

[GrapeApe]

Sometimes a player has an ability that transcends being a great all-around player. Dirk is one of the most unique players ever and the greatest shooter for his size in NBA history. What Kareem said might be factually correct, but I'm not really sure what his point was. The results Dirk has achieved throughout his career speak for themselves. The goal is to effectively help your team win games. Dirk has been doing that for well over a decade.

[feyki]

Defensive teams?

Kareem = 11
Dirk = 0


10+ rebounding seasons?

Kareem = 12
Dirk = 0


averaged over 4 assists

Kareem = 5
Dirk = 0


averaged over 2 blocks?

Kareem = 12
Dirk = 0

Why you did compare Dirk and Kareem ?



kennethgriffin is an idiot. as proven by his post history over the years. dont take him seriously.


.d.d

[COnDEMnED]

Laker fan here.
Kareem is wrong and it makes me cringe.
Dirk is one of the most respectable players this game has ever had. He had a legendary playoff run in his Championship year. He stuck with the team that traded for him his entire career. He took pay cuts to get his team talent. During free agency a few years ago, he said he would take a back seat to any potential superstars willing to sign with Dallas, even going as far to be coming off the bench. He is a high character guy.

The dude has been nothing but an absolute professional. I've seen him battle the Lakers for the last 20 some odd years. The dude is absolutely not a one trick pony. The man is an assassin. It's just unfortunate he had to go it alone for much of his career. Imagine Dirk with the players Shaq, Kobe or Duncan had the privilege of playing with. (Or Lebronze, to a lesser extent. Although the aforementioned never had to collude).

I don't know what Kareems problem is, but he needs to respect the career of a top 20ish player of all time. Not everyone can be considered 1A-1B like Jordan and Kareem. Being the top 20 of anything, all time, is still such a great accomplishment. Surely not a position held by "one trick pony's".
/end rant.

[SCdac]

Kinda agree with Kareem (and if any player can criticize fellow big men it's him). Had Dirk been an elite defender and elite shot blocker and elite post player for all of his career he'd essentially be a much different, better player. And that's saying something because he's already very good. Top 20-25 all time kinda player imo, which is damn good. He wouldn't be Dirk though. He is who he is. It's like saying, what if Duncan and Shaq had 3 point range. Only difference is those guys were more dominant

[Asukal]

Kareem can't win without all time great PGs, he's like a one trick pony too. :oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

How many times has Kobe shot 47% FG in his career?

0

How many times has Dirk?

10


kobe isnt a big man


kareem and dirk are


:oldlol:


holy **** youre a retard

[kennethgriffin]

Kareem can't win without all time great PGs, he's like a one trick pony too. :oldlol:


http://www.brettjankord.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/youkeepusingthatword.jpg




i do not think you know what one trick pony means

[Papaya Petee]

kobe isnt a big man


kareem and dirk are


:oldlol:


holy **** youre a retard

Dirk is a stretch 4 who relies on mostly jumpshots to score his points.
Kareem is a center who played in the post.
Kobe is ALSO a jumpshooter just like Dirk.

holy **** youre retarded :roll:

[4 Inches]

KG>Dirk
Let's keep it moving fellas

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kareem is obviously incorrect, but watch the part where he brings up Dirk. Far different context than what's being posted here.

Then again ISH has basically turned into a woman's gossip column, manufacturing drama when there really isn't any.

[Asukal]

http://www.brettjankord.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/youkeepusingthatword.jpg




i do not think you know what one trick pony means

And you lack comprehension. Look up the word "sarcasm" might learn a thing or two. :oldlol: :roll:

[Milbuck]

kareems response - "what does carrying a franchise and being an mvp, or 6th all time scorer have to do with being an all around player. how many defensive teams has he made? how many 10+ rebounding seasons has he had? how many times has he averaged over 4 assists? how many times has he averaged over 2 blocks?... 0... 0....0.... and 0"
Sounds like a dumbass casual fan who knows nothing outside of the stat sheet. Dirk is a terrific passer...was a good rebounder in the playoffs, averaged 11 rebounds a game in a 10 year playoff stretch...and in his prime was an above average defender. Kareem just needs to take the L on this one. He's trying to paint Dirk as this one dimensional shooter when most sane basketball fans know he's sooo much more than that.

What did he say that was false?
He explicitly says Dirk "didn't have a dominant career". If 6th all time in scoring, a league MVP, championship and finals MVP beating all of Aldridge/Roy, Kobe/Pau, Durant/Westbrook, Lebron/Wade is not "dominant" then I don't know what is.

[navy]

Sounds like a dumbass casual fan who knows nothing outside of the stat sheet. Dirk is a terrific passer...was a good rebounder in the playoffs, averaged 11 rebounds a game in a 10 year playoff stretch...and in his prime was an above average defender. Kareem just needs to take the L on this one. He's trying to paint Dirk as this one dimensional shooter when most sane basketball fans know he's sooo much more than that.

He explicitly says Dirk "didn't have a dominant career". If 6th all time in scoring, a league MVP, championship and finals MVP beating all of Aldridge/Roy, Kobe/Pau, Durant/Westbrook, Lebron/Wade is not "dominant" then I don't know what is.
How many of those games did he dominate outside of shooting?

[Milbuck]

How many of those games did he dominate outside of shooting?
Completely irrelevant. Dirk dominated those games his way and won a championship, period.

[navy]

Completely irrelevant. Dirk dominated those games his way and won a championship, period.
Nobody has denied that. Now answer the question.

[fos]

Who cares about regular season rebounding? Look at Dirk in the playoffs, end of story.

[Milbuck]

Nobody has denied that. Now answer the question.
My post was about him saying Dirk didn't have a dominant career. If you're going to take exception with my post, defend that statement first.

[navy]

My post was about him saying Dirk didn't have a dominant career. If you're going to take exception with my post, defend that statement first.
Well we are going to be arguing semantics, but when people say dominant they mean in multiple facets of the game. Like a one man wreckin crew. Not just scoring. And Kareem gave his reasons. How many games in that Finals run did Dirk dominate the game with his passing, rebounding, blocked shots. Who did he shut down personally?

Dirk is the 2nd greatest shooter after Curry all time, honestly that's enough to be a special player. Nobody talks about it, but the real reason the Hawks were so good last year and garbage in the playoffs is because Kyle Korver was basically Curry in the regular season. He was having unreal impact from just shooting. Dirk had an effect like that. A goat shooter, but he wasnt noteworthy in any other facet of the game. Obviously better than Korver. That doesnt mean he sucks, shooting is enough. By far. Clearly. The stuff in Parson's post speak for itself.

[kennethgriffin]

Dirk is a stretch 4 who relies on mostly jumpshots to score his points.
Kareem is a center who played in the post.
Kobe is ALSO a jumpshooter just like Dirk.

holy **** youre retarded :roll:


dirk nowitzki is a 7 feet 245 pounds

kareem was 7 foot 2, 225 pounds


dirk is actually bigger than kareem


how the hell does he not have a single season over 10 rebounds per game


kobe averaged 7 rebounds before and hes 6-5, 205 pounds for god sakes

give kobe dirks body and he averages 10+ his entire career easly

[dubeta]

dirk nowitzki is a 7 feet 245 pounds

kareem was 7 foot 2, 225 pounds


dirk is actually bigger than kareem


how the hell does he not have a single season over 10 rebounds per game


kobe averaged 7 rebounds before and hes 6-5, 205 pounds for god sakes

give kobe dirks body and he averages 10+ his entire career easly

Lol excuses? Isn't he basically the same size as LeBron?? Why does he average 5 rebounds a game while LeBron averaged 13 last playoffs? :oldlol:

[masonanddixon]

Kinda agree with Kareem (and if any player can criticize fellow big men it's him). Had Dirk been an elite defender and elite shot blocker and elite post player for all of his career he'd essentially be a much different, better player. And that's saying something because he's already very good. Top 20-25 all time kinda player imo, which is damn good. He wouldn't be Dirk though. He is who he is. It's like saying, what if Duncan and Shaq had 3 point range. Only difference is those guys were more dominant

Shut the hell up. Your anti-Dirk agenda is lame as hell.

[masonanddixon]

Well we are going to be arguing semantics, but when people say dominant they mean in multiple facets of the game. Like a one man wreckin crew. Not just scoring. And Kareem gave his reasons. How many games in that Finals run did Dirk dominate the game with his passing, rebounding, blocked shots. Who did he shut down personally?

Dirk is the 2nd greatest shooter after Curry all time, honestly that's enough to be a special player. Nobody talks about it, but the real reason the Hawks were so good last year and garbage in the playoffs is because Kyle Korver was basically Curry in the regular season. He was having unreal impact from just shooting. Dirk had an effect like that. A goat shooter, but he wasnt noteworthy in any other facet of the game. Obviously better than Korver. That doesnt mean he sucks, shooting is enough. By far. Clearly. The stuff in Parson's post speak for itself.

Every single game. I think in Game 3 he had 14 boards and 4 blocks. And Dirk is an insanely good passer for a 7 footer.

[DMAVS41]

What did he say that was false?

The part about him not having a dominant career and being a one trick pony. LOL

Both are false.

JVG called his opinion "uninformed" last night during the telecast.

[pastis]

Mark Cuban:

Ask him how many games he’s watched,” Cuban said. “That’s no disrespect to Kareem. I’m a huge fan. But just ask him how many games he’s watched.
“The guy (Nowitzki) rebounds, passes, has an amazing basketball I.Q., has had multiple MVP seasons, even though he only won one. Maybe he just had a dumb owner that didn’t put the right pieces around him.
“He’ll go down as one of the all-time great players. I don’t think there’s any question about that.”

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=pastis]Mark Cuban:

[I]Ask him how many games he

[pastis]

About time Cuban owns up.

Players that made all nba on the Mavs with Dirk;

Steve Nash...02 and 03

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:


mavs front office and staff made a horrible job after 2005 to sourround Dirk with a decend team to compete in the wild west. basically everything outside the 2010/2011 team was way overpaid trash and Dirk wasted his prime with lineups full of the adrian griffins, marquis daniels, desagna diops, devean goerges, shawne williams, quinton ross', antoine writghts or erica dampiers of this world.


its incredible. when i look at the mavs roster from 2005-2010 and from 2012-now....i really cant understand how we reached the 50 games every season, hell basically how we reached the playoffs.....its incredible what dirk did with this crap

jason terry was dirks best man from 2005 until 2012. and terry shot 3x under 40% in the playoffs
2004 nash shot like 30% in the playoffs....so the only real shot dirk had was 2003, before his prime. and well, we all know what happend in the WCF.

heil to germanic warrior Dirk

[DavisWarriorsFan]

Dirk is a one trick pony. He can shoot but can't play defense

[NattyPButter]

black man says something about white man and actually not putting him down, but all the white men see is black devil talking shit about their snow god. All he's saying is he if he was more an all around player he would he got more credit a long with his great shooting and be more higher on those all time player list. Playoff stats don't mean shit because it's season stats that are always brought up the sample size is to small. During the playoffs it's all about the championship.

[dunksby]

All this fuss over one sentence out of everything Kareem said? A bunch of impulsive over sensitive lot.

[ArbitraryWater]

All this fuss over one sentence out of everything Kareem said? A bunch of impulsive over sensitive lot.

Just because you got him as GOAT doesnt mean you have to take it up the ass for him :oldlol:

dang, twitter killing Kareem, even Laker fans :eek:

https://twitter.com/ESPNNBA/status/695805226608128000

[DMAVS41]

All this fuss over one sentence out of everything Kareem said? A bunch of impulsive over sensitive lot.

Nobody cares about the one trick pony thing if Kareem was just talking about offense...but it sounded like he was referencing just a shot...which is false...Dirk was one of the best and most complete offensive players ever.

But what people like Pop and JVG and Dirk and Carlisle and Cuban...and just about anyone that knows the game...are upset about...was the not dominant comment.

Tell that to the likes of George Karl or any coach that had to game plan for him...tell that Ibaka...tell Ibaka that Dirk was never a dominant player. You're laughed out of the room by people in the know.

Hence, why JVG basically called Kareem's comments "ignorant" last night on the broadcast.

[Clifton]

It's mostly true. Dirk is a one-trick pony. That's why you had to have so many pieces around him to win a title:

1. A guy to defend the paint, even though Dirk himself is 7' (Chandler);
2. A guy to get the rebounds, even though Dirk himself is 7' (Chandler);
3. A guy to run and organize the offense (Kidd);

There have been guys Dirk's size who could do all 3 and also lead the way in scoring. Like... Tim Duncan. Kareem did 3 of 4, though I think he could have controlled the offense if he had to (he had Oscar or Magic his whole career, so obviously that task went to them).

[DMAVS41]

It's mostly true. Dirk is a one-trick pony. That's why you had to have so many pieces around him to win a title:

1. A guy to defend the paint, even though Dirk himself is 7' (Chandler);
2. A guy to get the rebounds, even though Dirk himself is 7' (Chandler);
3. A guy to run and organize the offense (Kidd);

There have been guys Dirk's size who could do all 3 and also lead the way in scoring. Like... Tim Duncan. Kareem did 3 of 4, though I think he could have controlled the offense if he had to (he had Oscar or Magic his whole career, so obviously that task went to them).

This is simply false though...not that you probably care about reality.

Dirk won in 11 with much less help than the average title winning team.

If needing Tyson Chandler and washed up old Kidd on your team to win is "a lot"...then every star player ever needed "a lot plus a million" to win.

MJ needed Pippen and Grant/Rodman and the GOAT coach to win because he just couldn't do it all alone.

Duncan needed two future first ballot hall of famers and arguably the GOAT coach.

Kareem needed way more help than Dirk ever had to win on the Lakers.

Shaq needed a top 12 player of all time to win.

KG needed two in prime first ballot hall of famers.

Need I go on?

Dirk made the finals, beating a loaded Spurs team, with nothing of note on the roster and a truly terrible head coach.

He led his franchise to 11 straight 50 win teams...only the Magic Lakers, Duncan Spurs, and Russell Celtics have ever done this. Care to guess who had, by far, the least amount of help and worst coaching during that run?

These posts are my exact point...straight up ignorance not only about Dirk, but about the NBA and it's history as well.

[Pointguard]

Nobody cares about the one trick pony thing if Kareem was just talking about offense...but it sounded like he was referencing just a shot...which is false...Dirk was one of the best and most complete offensive players ever. He actually said what he was talking about. It's not questionable: blocks, defense, rebounds. If Kareem had Dirks best numbers in any of Dirks best years, in those areas, he was heavily criticized for his first 12 years. If he had had Dirks offensive numbers he would have been criticized for his first 11 years. It's made light of in one of the greatest comedies ever.

He's not going to see Dirk as very unique because he seen MacAdoo early in his career. He seen 90 foot domination from a good 7 or 8 players and a majority of them better than Dirk on the offensive side. He seen M Malone, Elvin Hayes and Magic criticized for average defense. You never hear of guys getting career highs on those guys.

It sounded like Kareem, and he emphasized this with his examples, was making a distinction between the 90 foot dominators vs the 25 ft dominators, as too many people don't distinguish them. Kareem, Wilt, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Lebron, Kobe (Wade) Bird and Magic because of their exceptional control of the game, should not be described the same way as Dirk. Especially when they were better on the offensive end as well.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

He actually said what he was talking about. It's not questionable: blocks, defense, rebounds. If Kareem had Dirks best numbers in any of Dirks best years, in those areas, he was heavily criticized for his first 12 years. If he had had Dirks offensive numbers he would have been criticized for his first 11 years. It's made light of in one of the greatest comedies ever.

He's not going to see Dirk as very unique because he seen MacAdoo early in his career. He seen 90 foot domination from a good 7 or 8 players and a majority of them better than Dirk on the offensive side. He seen M Malone, Elvin Hayes and Magic criticized for average defense. You never hear of guys getting career highs on those guys.

It sounded like Kareem, and he emphasized this with his examples, was making a distinction between the 90 foot dominators vs the 25 ft dominators, as too many people don't distinguish them. Kareem, Wilt, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Lebron, Kobe (Wade) Bird and Magic because of their exceptional control of the game, should not be described the same way as Dirk. Especially when they were better on the offensive end as well.

Kareem also called Dirk a "volume shooter." Dirk has never been a volume shooter with the exception of his rookie year. But it just goes to show that Kareem either hasn't watched Dirk play much, or he is getting senile, or he is just flat out dumb.

Take you your pick.

[Fallen Angel]

The way Dirk stans are talking in this thread are making him look like he's definite Top 10 player of All-Time.

There's no denying that Dirk is mostly one-dimensional, he scores with the elite of the league and doesn't do anything else in an above-average manner.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

The way Dirk stans are talking in this thread are making him look like he's definite Top 10 player of All-Time.

There's no denying that Dirk is mostly one-dimensional, he scores with the elite of the league and doesn't do anything else in an above-average manner.

The way Kareem talked about him, he basically said Dirk was a taller Steve Novak.

[DCL]

Chandler Parsons on Kareem's criticism of Dirk: "Carried franchise for almost 20 years, Finals MVP, regular season MVP, 6th all-time? Wish I was a 1-trick pony."


chandler parsons' assertion that dirk was 6th all time was more ridiculous than anything from kareem's mouth.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

chandler parsons' assertion that dirk was 6th all time was more ridiculous than anything from kareem's mouth.

He meant 6th all time scorer (considering Dirk just accomplished that a month or so ago....)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYpr50xUQAAXb_H.jpg

(These were not in order... it was a play on the powerball last month....)

[Pointguard]

Kareem also called Dirk a "volume shooter." Dirk has never been a volume shooter with the exception of his rookie year. But it just goes to show that Kareem either hasn't watched Dirk play much, or he is getting senile, or he is just flat out dumb.

Take you your pick.
Yeah but nobody really cares about that.

[dunksby]

Just because you got him as GOAT doesnt mean you have to take it up the ass for him :oldlol:

dang, twitter killing Kareem, even Laker fans :eek:

https://twitter.com/ESPNNBA/status/695805226608128000
Look at this ****** whoring for my attention, go back to your hole.

[DMV2]

DMAVS and Arbitrary Waters know I'm not the biggest Dirk fan (quite the opposite) at all but Dirk's 2011 ring is way more impressive than any of Kareem's 6.

38-year-old Jason Kidd who was limited to shooting 3's. JJ Barea, a freakin midget! Chandler who didn't do shit in Chicago or Charlotte. Matrix who didn't do shit post-Phoenix years(MIA, TOR), Stevenson who's only famous for beefing with LeBron.... Dirk won a ring with this garbage ass squad. I guess Jason Terry was still kinda good.

Look at them a few years later...Kidd and Matrix are retired. Chandler sucks everywhere he goes outside of Dallas. Terry was on his last legs in Dallas, haven't done shit since. Stevenson been out the league for years.

Imagine if Dirk had Oscar or Magic, Worthy, Scott and Cooper...

[DMAVS41]

He actually said what he was talking about. It's not questionable: blocks, defense, rebounds. If Kareem had Dirks best numbers in any of Dirks best years, in those areas, he was heavily criticized for his first 12 years. If he had had Dirks offensive numbers he would have been criticized for his first 11 years. It's made light of in one of the greatest comedies ever.

He's not going to see Dirk as very unique because he seen MacAdoo early in his career. He seen 90 foot domination from a good 7 or 8 players and a majority of them better than Dirk on the offensive side. He seen M Malone, Elvin Hayes and Magic criticized for average defense. You never hear of guys getting career highs on those guys.

It sounded like Kareem, and he emphasized this with his examples, was making a distinction between the 90 foot dominators vs the 25 ft dominators, as too many people don't distinguish them. Kareem, Wilt, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Lebron, Kobe (Wade) Bird and Magic because of their exceptional control of the game, should not be described the same way as Dirk. Especially when they were better on the offensive end as well.

He said Dirk wasn't dominant. Which, again, is simply false.

Like I have said..you and Kareem can take one side...and the rest of the informed basketball world can take the other.

Just like JVG said last night on the broadcast...it's simply uninformed and ignorant. The two words I've used to describe you many times here.

Like I said before...it has to just be killing you that Dirk was voted so far ahead of your boy KG. All those arguments with you claiming it's absurd to rank Dirk even on the same tier with KG...then people that do basketball for a living not only vote him on the same tier, but 5 spots ahead or whatever it was. Again...it has to kill you.

But, you'll never learn, you'll keep talking about what Dirk can't do...you'll go overboard on it...and ignore what made Dirk great. You think Dirk was Bob MacAdoo...but Dirk was considerably different and better. Again...displaying your ignorance as usual.

Like I said earlier...tell Pop or JVG or Phil or Karl...or Serge Ibaka that Dirk was never dominant. A past athletic prime Dirk absolutely roasted one of the best defenders in the league in 1 on 1 coverage in a way very few, if any, players at his position ever could. You really think that wasn't dominance? You are talking about a guy that outdueled a Duncan/Pop led Spurs team at the peak of their powers without homecourt in the playoffs. Only team to beat them in a 3 year span...

If it's so easy...why aren't more players leading franchises to 11 plus years of 50 straight...why didn't KG do it? If he's so much better...why wasn't he dominating a pre prime Dirk in 02 when it was all there for him to dominate a series?

I could ask a million more questions you won't be able to answer.

But, I hate to kick you while your down so much...

[DMAVS41]

The way Dirk stans are talking in this thread are making him look like he's definite Top 10 player of All-Time.

There's no denying that Dirk is mostly one-dimensional, he scores with the elite of the league and doesn't do anything else in an above-average manner.

He definitely did more than just score. See...this is where that uninformed opinion and ignorance comes in.

For his role...Dirk was definitely an above average rebounder. He's 36th all time in rebounds per game in the playoffs. Dirk was an excellent defensive rebounder for the majority of his career. Again, given his role, this is actually quite impressive.

He also has an all time elite off ball impact. You can't just lump this into scoring as it would miss the impact. His spot up game and pick and pop / roll game to the nail or to the 3 point line...was all time elite. He routinely got doubled, still does at times, off the ball 23 feet from the basket.

He was also an above average defender for the majority of his career as well.

If you honestly think Dirk wasn't an above average rebounder when the games mattered the most...you are either just hating...or are ignorant about Dirk and NBA history...it's as simple as that.

[Pointguard]

He said Dirk wasn't dominant. Which, again, is simply false.

Like I have said..you and Kareem can take one side...and the rest of the informed basketball world can take the other.

Just like JVG said last night on the broadcast...it's simply uninformed and ignorant. The two words I've used to describe you many times here.
Its obvious as day that you don't want to argue the point in question. Your whole post is dedicated to other things and trying to lower the dissenting voice on the other side. You're "ignorant this and that" like 7 times in two post its obvious that you can't argue the point and are trying to lower the opposing side. You're too old for such silliness.


But, you'll never learn, you'll keep talking about what Dirk can't do...you'll go overboard on it...and ignore what made Dirk great. You think Dirk was Bob MacAdoo...but Dirk was considerably different and better. Again...displaying your ignorance as usual.
You know nothing about Mac. Don't start pretending now. What is the difference in their games? Since you are on this pretend trip. You keep talking about ignorance, I know you know nothing about Mac. But its totally necessary for you to cry about other posters. Its your gimmick.


Like I said earlier...tell Pop or JVG or Phil or Karl...or Serge Ibaka that Dirk was never dominant. A past athletic prime Dirk absolutely roasted one of the best defenders in the league in 1 on 1 coverage in a way very few, if any, players at his position ever could. You really think that wasn't dominance? You are talking about a guy that outdueled a Duncan/Pop led Spurs team at the peak of their powers without homecourt in the playoffs. Only team to beat them in a 3 year span...
He said a dominant career. He didn't say dominant player. Its the fourth time you misinterpreted him when he only said a little more than a paragraph.


If it's so easy...why aren't more players leading franchises to 11 plus years of 50 straight...why didn't KG do it? If he's so much better...why wasn't he dominating a pre prime Dirk in 02 when it was all there for him to dominate a series?
Coaches and franchises are better indicators of winning than players are. This is pure fact. KG had the worse front office than any of the top 30 players without question. Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, and nearly every great player had lost with coaching and franchises weren't up to par. And Dirk isn't on their level. So that argument is trash.

KG and Duncan would have dominated Dirk if he guarded them. Duncan had a career high on him like 53 points and then Dirk wasn't guarding them anymore.


I could ask a million more questions you won't be able to answer.

But, I hate to kick you while your down so much... :lol Its my style and when you mimic it you always look incredibly silly. But I invite it. You always end up backing up and hitting the bottle harder. Please show me the statement that goes at the details of Kareem's criticism of Dirk being less than dominant in rebounding, blocking shots and defense. I haven't seen it. Kareem never said he wasn't dominant, he specifically laid out a criticism and the nay sayers know that Dirk lacked in that area in comparison to other greats. Its brought up in every comparison thread here and on other boards.

Dirk took the weaker cover on defense which should have hyped his rebounding. That's real and it addresses two weaknesses. We know he doesn't block shots so Kareem was at least partially right in all three statements.

[Fire Colangelo]

Holy shit not this again.

[bizil]

When it comes to certain people defending Dirk, two things tend to bother me:

- When it's pointed out that Dirk ISN'T as complete as most of the great players, they flip out. In comparison to PF's like Barkley, Malone, KG, McHale, Hayes, Petitt, etc., HE ISN'T AS COMPLETE!!!

However, the more complete player ISN'T the better player in all cases. I do think Kareem was harsh in his assessment of Dirk though. Dirk was a VERY GOOD REBOUNDER. And of course a supreme alpha dog. WHICH means he wasn't a one trick pony.

- When Dirk is compared to McAdoo, they DISMISS McAdoo's importance and peak value. Before McAdoo, THERE WASN'T a 6'10 player with that combination of scoring skillset and range. He had the scoring skillset of a Rick Barry in a big man body. To top it off, he was a great rebounder AND shot blocker.

Personally, I would take McAdoo OVER Dirk peak wise. BECAUSE of McAdoo's rebounding and interior defense. I know that's not a popular opinion on this site. But I stand by that opinion! McAdoo gets SLEPT ON BIG TIME!!!

[DMAVS41]

Its obvious as day that you don't want to argue the point in question. Your whole post is dedicated to other things and trying to lower the dissenting voice on the other side. You're "ignorant this and that" like 7 times in two post its obvious that you can't argue the point and are trying to lower the opposing side. You're too old for such silliness.

You know nothing about Mac. Don't start pretending now. What is the difference in their games? Since you are on this pretend trip. You keep talking about ignorance, I know you know nothing about Mac. But its totally necessary for you to cry about other posters. Its your gimmick.

He said a dominant career. He didn't say dominant player. Its the fourth time you misinterpreted him when he only said a little more than a paragraph.

Coaches and franchises are better indicators of winning than players are. This is pure fact. KG had the worse front office than any of the top 30 players without question. Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, and nearly every great player had lost with coaching and franchises weren't up to par. And Dirk isn't on their level. So that argument is trash.

KG and Duncan would have dominated Dirk if he guarded them. Duncan had a career high on him like 53 points and then Dirk wasn't guarding them anymore.
:lol Its my style and when you mimic it you always look incredibly silly. But I invite it. You always end up backing up and hitting the bottle harder. Please show me the statement that goes at the details of Kareem's criticism of Dirk being less than dominant in rebounding, blocking shots and defense. I haven't seen it. Kareem never said he wasn't dominant, he specifically laid out a criticism and the nay sayers know that Dirk lacked in that area in comparison to other greats. Its brought up in every comparison thread here and on other boards.

Dirk took the weaker cover on defense which should have hyped his rebounding. That's real and it addresses two weaknesses. We know he doesn't block shots so Kareem was at least partially right in all three statements.

Again...what?

If Dirk didn't have a dominant career...then only, maybe, 10 guys in history had a dominant career.

Honestly, it's more defensible to say Dirk wasn't a dominant player than it is to say he didn't have a dominant career.

Dirk has some of the best win percentages of all time. He's one of like 12 guys ever to win a title, fmvp, and regular season MVP.

He's one of 4 guys to average over 25/10 for his career in the playoffs.

He's one of 4 franchise players to lead a franchise to 11 or more 50 win seasons in a row.

He's 6th all time in points. He's been an all star caliber for like 15 plus years now.

He's on the short list of best late game player ever...he's one of the best elimination game players ever.

He's one of a few players in NBA history that actually see their games get better in the playoffs.

What the **** is that if it's not a dominant career?

[DMAVS41]

When it comes to certain people defending Dirk, two things tend to bother me:

- When it's pointed out that Dirk ISN'T as complete as most of the great players, they flip out. In comparison to PF's like Barkley, Malone, KG, McHale, Hayes, Petitt, etc., HE ISN'T AS COMPLETE!!!

However, the more complete player ISN'T the better player in all cases. I do think Kareem was harsh in his assessment of Dirk though. Dirk was a VERY GOOD REBOUNDER. And of course a supreme alpha dog. WHICH means he wasn't a one trick pony.

- When Dirk is compared to McAdoo, they DISMISS McAdoo's importance and peak value. Before McAdoo, THERE WASN'T a 6'10 player with that combination of scoring skillset and range. He had the scoring skillset of a Rick Barry in a big man body. To top it off, he was a great rebounder AND shot blocker.

Personally, I would take McAdoo OVER Dirk peak wise. BECAUSE of McAdoo's rebounding and interior defense. I know that's not a popular opinion on this site. But I stand by that opinion! McAdoo gets SLEPT ON BIG TIME!!!

I actually don't see anyone doing that. I don't see anyone saying Dirk was as complete a player as the likes of Kareem, Duncan, Malone, KG...etc.

Could you point to where anyone is arguing that?

I think the reason people get annoyed here, and in the media, Dirk, his teammates, his coach, and his owner...is that only an uninformed and ignorant opinion would make certain claims like "one trick pony"...criticize his rebounding...and say he didn't have a dominant career.

Again, JVG in the telecast on Friday roasted Kareem...called his opinion "uninformed"...which of course it is.

At some point...nearly 20 years in...it's about time to stop the non sense about how Dirk couldn't defend or rebound. Was he elite at those things? Hell no, but he was far better than the likes of most ignorant people here and Kareem clearly give him credit for.

I only saw Mac post 1976...so unless he was just a completely different player before then...I don't see him as a player better than Dirk. He did have great range and was very skilled, but he didn't have the kind of shot Dirk had. I think you under-rate just what kind of shooter Dirk actually is. Nobody that shoots only mid 70's from the ft line is going to be in the class of Dirk as a shooter.

Also, while I do think Mac was probably a slightly better rebounder than Dirk...I don't think that moves the needles much here as it's very very close. Teams wouldn't be winning or losing games based off the difference in rebounding between the two players.

Shot blocking? Sure, but that is hardly all there is to defense...I'd probably take Dirk on defense from what I saw. Mac didn't seem, to me, like a smart defender like Dirk was. The stats probably favor Dirk here, but those don't mean much to me.

Having said that, it's fine to argue Mac's best vs Dirk...there are plenty of players that had great peaks for a few years that were on par or better than Dirk.

Dirk's ranking all time isn't because of his otherworldly peak...while it was great, Dirk's consistency, durability, and longevity is what pushes him higher than some similar or slightly better players at their best.

I just happen to think, from what I saw, that Mac isn't one of those...I don't think he presented quite the kind of matchup issues that Dirk ultimately did for the majority of his career.

[SamuraiSWISH]

KAJ is right ... Doesn't mean he isn't great. But he was never very dimensional as a player.

[bizil]

I actually don't see anyone doing that. I don't see anyone saying Dirk was as complete a player as the likes of Kareem, Duncan, Malone, KG...etc.

Could you point to where anyone is arguing that?

I think the reason people get annoyed here, and in the media, Dirk, his teammates, his coach, and his owner...is that only an uninformed and ignorant opinion would make certain claims like "one trick pony"...criticize his rebounding...and say he didn't have a dominant career.

Again, JVG in the telecast on Friday roasted Kareem...called his opinion "uninformed"...which of course it is.

At some point...nearly 20 years in...it's about time to stop the non sense about how Dirk couldn't defend or rebound. Was he elite at those things? Hell no, but he was far better than the likes of most ignorant people here and Kareem clearly give him credit for.

I only saw Mac post 1976...so unless he was just a completely different player before then...I don't see him as a player better than Dirk. He did have great range and was very skilled, but he didn't have the kind of shot Dirk had. I think you under-rate just what kind of shooter Dirk actually is. Nobody that shoots only mid 70's from the ft line is going to be in the class of Dirk as a shooter.

Also, while I do think Mac was probably a slightly better rebounder than Dirk...I don't think that moves the needles much here as it's very very close. Teams wouldn't be winning or losing games based off the difference in rebounding between the two players.

Shot blocking? Sure, but that is hardly all there is to defense...I'd probably take Dirk on defense from what I saw. Mac didn't seem, to me, like a smart defender like Dirk was. The stats probably favor Dirk here, but those don't mean much to me.

Having said that, it's fine to argue Mac's best vs Dirk...there are plenty of players that had great peaks for a few years that were on par or better than Dirk.

Dirk's ranking all time isn't because of his otherworldly peak...while it was great, Dirk's consistency, durability, and longevity is what pushes him higher than some similar or slightly better players at their best.

I just happen to think, from what I saw, that Mac isn't one of those...I don't think he presented quite the kind of matchup issues that Dirk ultimately did for the majority of his career.


You're missing the point in the McAdoo-Dirk comparison. Dirk EVOLVED what McAdoo did scoring wise. Dirk was taller and added the new age three point weapon. So it's not about them being carbon copies or ANYTHING like that. ITS about evolution! McAdoo provided HUGE mismatches at his peak. There wasn't ANOTHER 6'10 player like him in the league at that time. At 7'0, Dirk took the stretch PF type superstar to the next level. BUT McAdoo deserve props for being the original.

When it comes to people being TOO SENSITIVE when analyzing Dirk's game, I'm talking about fans in general. I'm not necessarily talking about posters on this site. As soon as its pointed out that he's not as complete as most of the great PF's, they flip out. Being a complete player AND a great player are two different things. The GOAL is to become a great player. Dirk is obviously a legend!

[DMAVS41]

You're missing the point in the McAdoo-Dirk comparison. Dirk EVOLVED what McAdoo did scoring wise. Dirk was taller and added the new age three point weapon. So it's not about them being carbon copies or ANYTHING like that. ITS about evolution! McAdoo provided HUGE mismatches at his peak. There wasn't ANOTHER 6'10 player like him in the league at that time. At 7'0, Dirk took the stretch PF type superstar to the next level. BUT McAdoo deserve props for being the original.

When it comes to people being TOO SENSITIVE when analyzing Dirk's game, I'm talking about fans in general. I'm not necessarily talking about posters on this site. As soon as its pointed out that he's not as complete as most of the great PF's, they flip out. Being a complete player AND a great player are two different things. The GOAL is to be come a great player. Dirk is obviously a legend!

Sure he does, but what is your point with that towards me? I never claimed that Mac was bad or didn't deserve credit for being a stretch big with excellent range.

I said Dirk was different and better...which he was in my opinion.

Again, JVG "flipped out" I guess according to you. Pop "flipped out" I guess according to you.

Nobody thinks Dirk was a complete player along the lines of Duncan, KG, Malone, and Kareem. You keep saying this but I don't see anyone even refuting that.

What people, players, fans, coaches, owners...etc....took issue with was the "one trick" comment and the not dominant comment.

I don't see why the people on the clear cut right side of the argument should have to defend themselves here...it should be Kareem and PG and whoever else having to defend their "ignorant and uninformed" to quote JVG stance.

But I just don't see where you are coming from. I've yet to see anyone argue Dirk was a complete player along those lines...in fact, we all just tend to agree that Dirk wasn't close to as good as a guy like KG on defense or on the glass.

I do think Dirk gets under-rated there, but don't really care.

So if you could actually point to some evidence or examples of what you are talking about...I just don't see it.

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS and Arbitrary Waters know I'm not the biggest Dirk fan (quite the opposite) at all but Dirk's 2011 ring is way more impressive than any of Kareem's 6.

38-year-old Jason Kidd who was limited to shooting 3's. JJ Barea, a freakin midget! Chandler who didn't do shit in Chicago or Charlotte. Matrix who didn't do shit post-Phoenix years(MIA, TOR), Stevenson who's only famous for beefing with LeBron.... Dirk won a ring with this garbage ass squad. I guess Jason Terry was still kinda good.

Look at them a few years later...Kidd and Matrix are retired. Chandler sucks everywhere he goes outside of Dallas. Terry was on his last legs in Dallas, haven't done shit since. Stevenson been out the league for years.

Imagine if Dirk had Oscar or Magic, Worthy, Scott and Cooper...


Bingo...imagine if Dirk played with CP3, Terry, and Tyson from 06 to present...with Terry/Tyson being replaced.

LOL...Dirk would be thought of as much better than he currently is. Which would be misleading, because he wouldn't be any better than he actually is, but my god...put him on a team that allowed him to play to his strengths like that? Holy shit...they'd win a lot more and Dirk's numbers/efficiency would be even better.

[SpanishACB]

Dirk just too good of a guy

if he traded for a big big market or colluded in any sort of way like modern super stars do he would have went on to the finals over and over.

[IGOTGAME]

Dirk wasn't a good defender. Is the revisionist history now saying that he was good? He run away from EVERY tough matchup and his coach schemed to hide him for the majority of his career.

[Pointguard]

Again...what?

If Dirk didn't have a dominant career...then only, maybe, 10 guys in history had a dominant career.

Honestly, it's more defensible to say Dirk wasn't a dominant player than it is to say he didn't have a dominant career.

Dirk has some of the best win percentages of all time. He's one of like 12 guys ever to win a title, fmvp, and regular season MVP.

He's one of 4 guys to average over 25/10 for his career in the playoffs.

He's one of 4 franchise players to lead a franchise to 11 or more 50 win seasons in a row.

He's 6th all time in points. He's been an all star caliber for like 15 plus years now.

He's on the short list of best late game player ever...he's one of the best elimination game players ever.

He's one of a few players in NBA history that actually see their games get better in the playoffs.

What the **** is that if it's not a dominant career?
I can't say what a dominant career is either. Kareem said it. But he didn't say Dirk wasn't dominant straight up, which I would have disagreed with. He was definitely adding a qualifier when you see it. Like I said, his point seemed to be around a 90 foot dominator vs a 25 foot dominator.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk wasn't a good defender. Is the revisionist history now saying that he was good? He run away from EVERY tough matchup and his coach schemed to hide him for the majority of his career.

This seems like semantics.

How are you defining good?

I think it's clear that prime Dirk was not bad. I think it's clear he was above average most of his years in his prime.

I also think it's clear that he was terrible his first 1 to 2 years...and is currently pretty bad on defense as well.

I think the revisionist history is calling him a player that didn't defend/rebound.

[DMAVS41]

I can't say what a dominant career is either. Kareem said it. But he didn't say Dirk wasn't dominant straight up, which I would have disagreed with. He was definitely adding a qualifier when you see it. Like I said, his point seemed to be around a 90 foot dominator vs a 25 foot dominator.

But that really doesn't make sense because you are arguing he was solely talking about his career...why then bring up 90 ft and 25 ft?

Like I said above...it's far easier to argue Dirk wasn't a dominant player than it is he didn't have a dominant career.

It's one of the best careers ever...by any objective measure. Again, unless of course Kareem is only referring to the top 10 or so careers ever.

[Pointguard]

But that really doesn't make sense because you are arguing he was solely talking about his career...why then bring up 90 ft and 25 ft?
One is how he played (25 ft) and then other is his career. One is what I believe what Kareem was talking about (90-25ft) the other is his use of words. Not meant to overlap at all. Maybe I'm not understanding you?


Like I said above...it's far easier to argue Dirk wasn't a dominant player than it is he didn't have a dominant career.

It's one of the best careers ever...by any objective measure. Again, unless of course Kareem is only referring to the top 10 or so careers ever.
OK since I don't know what a dominant career ever is you can explain it to me. I don't think Dirk's career is one of the best careers as there are definite levels, (with a very definite 'S') above him. Best or dominant means top level - Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Wilt, Bird, Wilt all of which have legendary statuses attached to it and then Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, loaded with accolades and winning just not legendary. I don't consider the Dirk, KG, D.Robinson and Malone on that second level but its not written in stone everywhere.

[DMAVS41]

One is how he played (25 ft) and then other is his career. One is what I believe what Kareem was talking about (90-25ft) the other is his use of words. Not meant to overlap at all. Maybe I'm not understanding you?

OK since I don't know what a dominant career ever is you can explain it to me. I don't think Dirk's career is one of the best careers as there are definite levels, (with a very definite 'S') above him. Best or dominant means top level - Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Wilt, Bird, Wilt all of which have legendary statuses attached to it and then Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, loaded with accolades and winning just not legendary. I don't consider the Dirk, KG, D.Robinson and Malone on that second level but its not written in stone everywhere.

You said Kareem was just talking about career...now you are talking about something else. Dirk was certainly a dominant player...you just said so.

As far as careers?

I don't see how one can say it wasn't dominant. It's one of the 20 best careers easily by any objective measure.

If the argument is that Dirk isn't a top 10 player or didn't have a top 10 career ever. Great...we all agree, but I doubt that is what you or Kareem are saying.

This is why I say it's usually people just looking to hate. Like...what is the point of all this?

[IGOTGAME]

This seems like semantics.

How are you defining good?

I think it's clear that prime Dirk was not bad. I think it's clear he was above average most of his years in his prime.

I also think it's clear that he was terrible his first 1 to 2 years...and is currently pretty bad on defense as well.

I think the revisionist history is calling him a player that didn't defend/rebound.

Pick what you think is Dirks best year. I'll see where he ranks opposed to other starting power forwards

[DMAVS41]

Pick what you think is Dirks best year. I'll see where he ranks opposed to other starting power forwards

In his role? I thought 11 was a year he played very good defense...don't think it was best defense in terms of ability, but in impact it might have been.

Because he got to play to his strengths more next do Tyson.

[Pointguard]

You said Kareem was just talking about career...now you are talking about something else. Dirk was certainly a dominant player...you just said so.
Kareem said career. This is not disputable. I said I don't fully understand what he meant.


As far as careers?

I don't see how one can say it wasn't dominant. It's one of the 20 best careers easily by any objective measure.
Dominant means above the others doesn't it? If I put Jordan or Russell career next to Dirk's you think that Dirk's career is on that level. Dominant and Best are top tier. Not the next tier or this case the third tier. Great career yes. Dominant or the best, no.


If the argument is that Dirk isn't a top 10 player or didn't have a top 10 career ever. Great...we all agree, but I doubt that is what you or Kareem are saying.

This is why I say it's usually people just looking to hate. Like...what is the point of all this?
I am, and Kareem is saying there are levels to this. KG and Dirk had like three to five years where they were dominant. Lebron and Duncan were on another level and had like twice as many. Now had Dirk and KG had better front offices and teammates I think it could be the same, but it didn't turn out that way. You can't describe Dirk the same way you describe Duncan is what Kareem and I are saying.

[nathanjizzle]

Stop Calling Dirk A 1 Trick Pony. He Is A 2 Trick Pony.!!!

hes a great spot up shooter, and a great post presence. outside of that not sure what else he does well.

[JohnFreeman]

Kareem is that old guy asshole

Fck him

[rmt]

This seems like semantics.

How are you defining good?

I think it's clear that prime Dirk was not bad. I think it's clear he was above average most of his years in his prime.

I also think it's clear that he was terrible his first 1 to 2 years...and is currently pretty bad on defense as well.

I think the revisionist history is calling him a player that didn't defend/rebound.

Those 2 statements are not exactly compatible. Not bad and above average. I disagree with your statement that Dirk's defense was above average most of his years in his prime. I have never thought of Dirk's defense as above average.

[DMAVS41]

Those 2 statements are not exactly compatible. Not bad and above average. I disagree with your statement that Dirk's defense was above average most of his years in his prime. I have never thought of Dirk's defense as above average.

They are perfectly compatible actually. I'm not saying his defense should be known as not bad...I'm saying it was clear it wasn't bad. In fact, I think it was above average given his role most of his prime.

Who, for example, was causing the 03 Mavs to have a top 10 defense in the league? It certainly wasn't the all time bad defender in Nash. It wasn't Finley or Nick.

Lafrentz was okay...Najera wasn't bad, but was badly under sized. Bradley was good, but didn't play a huge role.

So...terrible perimeter defenders...nothing special anywhere else...yet they have a top 9 defense while playing one of the fastest paces in the league.

And this is a pre peak Dirk...a Dirk that wasn't as good as he would become defensively.

I don't really see how someone could claim he's below average even in 03 when he was yet to grow as a defender like he did under Avery and Rick.

At some point...when Dirk is the only big playing over 23 minutes on the team per game...and the next 3 minute leaders are all terrible or subpar perimeter defenders...

Like...hard to argue what you and others are. The defense got 6.1 points per 100 worse without Dirk on the floor in 03.

As an aside, talk about a team that was absurdly dependent on Dirk.

With Dirk...+12.6 points per 100
Without Dirk...-7.8 points per 100

Like I've said...this seems like all semantics. Nobody is claiming, on the Dirk side at least, anything that isn't reasonable. Put Dirk in a decent role on defense and he's going to defend and rebound well enough in his prime. How one wants to label that is up to them I guess.

But if Dirk isn't even an average defender...you simply can't have the above. There is no ****ing way that 03 Mavs team could have been that good defensively with Dirk as the only big playing big minutes. And the team wouldn't get that much worse on defense without him.

But facts generally don't matter on here.

[Pointguard]

They are perfectly compatible actually. I'm not saying his defense should be known as not bad...I'm saying it was clear it wasn't bad. In fact, I think it was above average given his role most of his prime.

Who, for example, was causing the 03 Mavs to have a top 10 defense in the league? It certainly wasn't the all time bad defender in Nash. It wasn't Finley or Nick.

Lafrentz was okay...Najera wasn't bad, but was badly under sized. Bradley was good, but didn't play a huge role.

So...terrible perimeter defenders...nothing special anywhere else...yet they have a top 9 defense while playing one of the fastest paces in the league.

And this is a pre peak Dirk...a Dirk that wasn't as good as he would become defensively.

I don't really see how someone could claim he's below average even in 03 when he was yet to grow as a defender like he did under Avery and Rick.

At some point...when Dirk is the only big playing over 23 minutes on the team per game...and the next 3 minute leaders are all terrible or subpar perimeter defenders...

Like...hard to argue what you and others are. The defense got 6.1 points per 100 worse without Dirk on the floor in 03.

As an aside, talk about a team that was absurdly dependent on Dirk.

With Dirk...+12.6 points per 100
Without Dirk...-7.8 points per 100

Like I've said...this seems like all semantics. Nobody is claiming, on the Dirk side at least, anything that isn't reasonable. Put Dirk in a decent role on defense and he's going to defend and rebound well enough in his prime. How one wants to label that is up to them I guess.

But if Dirk isn't even an average defender...you simply can't have the above. There is no ****ing way that 03 Mavs team could have been that good defensively with Dirk as the only big playing big minutes. And the team wouldn't get that much worse on defense without him.

But facts generally don't matter on here.

Average defenders guard the great and bad at their position. Dirk isn't guarding Duncan in the playoffs that year. Najara and Lafrentz did. I'm sure it was the same with Chris Webber in the series before the third game. Nor does your little deduction program that Dirk was good by looking at other players definitely isn't on point: Nash leaves for Pheonix and in '07 Amare was the only legit PF and C on the team that could play any type of defense on bigs - so be it, it was bad defense. Amare had to take the tougher cover if was Duncan or KG or star center. That team was only 4 notches down (13th) from that Mavericks team defensively that you mentioned above. When Amare came to my Knicks he revealed that D'Antonio never really taught defense, and he was fully confident that was justification for his bad defense.

That Pheonix team was 16th in the league defensively (actually seventh the first year when they started winning) for three years with Amare being the big man defensively before the injury. And actually plummeted after the injury, all the way to 25th. The Mavs defense the year before and after 2003 was bottom 5. The experiment of putting Dirk on the weaker cover could have been the improvement of 26th place to 9th as he was guarding star PF's in '02 some of the time. One way or the other it was some experiment that coach Nelson did in '03 that worked defensively. But relegating a player's role defensively and it working with great success isn't a good thing for that player.

[DMAVS41]

Average defenders guard the great and bad at their position. Dirk isn't guarding Duncan in the playoffs that year. Najara and Lafrentz did. I'm sure it was the same with Chris Webber in the series before the third game. Nor does your little deduction program that Dirk was good by looking at other players definitely isn't on point: Nash leaves for Pheonix and in '07 Amare was the only legit PF and C on the team that could play any type of defense on bigs - so be it, it was bad defense. Amare had to take the tougher cover if was Duncan or KG or star center. That team was only 4 notches down (13th) from that Mavericks team defensively that you mentioned above. When Amare came to my Knicks he revealed that D'Antonio never really taught defense, and he was fully confident that was justification for his bad defense.

That Pheonix team was 16th in the league defensively (actually seventh the first year when they started winning) for three years with Amare being the big man defensively before the injury. And actually plummeted after the injury, all the way to 25th. The Mavs defense the year before and after 2003 was bottom 5. The experiment of putting Dirk on the weaker cover could have been the improvement of 26th place to 9th as he was guarding star PF's in '02 some of the time. One way or the other it was some experiment that coach Nelson did in '03 that worked defensively. But relegating a player's role defensively and it working with great success isn't a good thing for that player.

Dirk was playing 39 minutes a game in 03. The next highest big was 23 minutes. Think about that.

Then think about Nash, Finley, and Nick making up the next 3 highest minute players. Nash is one of the worst defenders of all time...he's horrific.

Finley and Nick were both subpar.

Please actually think about this.

Dirk is the only big playing large minutes...the next 3 guys either suck or are bad defensively.

The team was terrible defensively without Dirk in the game.

Please explain how a bad defender can do this. It's almost impossible for the 03 Mavs to have those rankings if Dirk is as bad on defense as you claim.

And again, this was before Dirk reached his best on defense.

Please answer this...

You show your ignorance about the Mavs yet again. It wasn't about the tough covers...the 04 Mavs played Dirk out of position at center. That combined with an even worse roster defensively is why it was much worse.

If role and teammates don't matter...then you are going to have a tough time explaining what happened to KG's wolves from 05 through 07. Did KG just forget how to play defense? Or will you be logical and reasonable and talk about the team?

And honestly...just KG's whole career in Minny...riddled with shitty defensive teams. Only two times did they have a top 10 defense. ROFL...hey...if teammates and role don't matter...be consistent...why aren't you hammering KG?

[Toizumi]

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Has there been an unstoppable move in the NBA since the skyhook? And I bring up Dirk’s fadeaway.

ABDUL-JABBAR: You asked about Dirk Nowitzki. Dirk Nowitzki’s shot is very hard to block, but I don’t think that he was able to have a dominant career because he couldn’t do other things. If he could have shot like that and rebounded and played defense and blocked shots, then he would have been all-around, and he would have gotten more credit. He was like a one-trick pony. You want guys that can shoot like that on your team. I’m not saying that he lacked value, but he would have been considered at a higher level if he had done more on the court other than just shoot the ball.

Kareem never really responded to the question and what he said was unwarranted. I do believe his quote is somewhat taken out of context. He is not stating Dirk wasn't a great player, but in his view, Dirk did not have a "dominant" career. "Dominant" is very subjective.

Dirk is an all time great scorer and a very smart player and his teams have been great because of that. I would certainly call him a dominant player because of his scoring and intangibles.
However, If Kareem would have said that Dirk could have been even greater if his overall game was more well-rounded, I would have agreed.
Kareem went too far with his statement, but he's a 70 year old bitter dude who speaks his mind..

[sportjames23]

Kareem is that old guy asshole

Fck him


Kareem would still whoop your ass.

[DMAVS41]

Kareem never really responded to the question and what he said was unwarranted. I do believe his quote is somewhat taken out of context. He is not stating Dirk wasn't a great player, but in his view, Dirk did not have a "dominant" career. "Dominant" is very subjective.

Dirk is an all time great scorer and a very smart player and his teams have been great because of that. I would certainly call him a dominant player because of his scoring and intangibles.
However, If Kareem would have said that Dirk could have been even greater if his overall game was more well-rounded, I would have agreed.
Kareem went too far with his statement, but he's a 70 year old bitter dude who speaks his mind..

I don't think any refutes that Dirk would have been considerably better if he could defend/rebound like Duncan, for example.

What many took issue with was the "one trick" and "not dominant"...Kareem is clearly implying that Dirk was just a great shooter. Again, this is an uninformed and ignorant take on Dirk...just like JVG said.

I'd bet Kareem has watched less than 50 games of Dirk in his life.

[KOBE143]

Kareem is obviously getting senile here.. Dude forgot that Dirk was the 2nd greatest player of the Kobe era..

[houston]

Kareem can't win without all time great PGs, he's like a one trick pony too. :oldlol:


ouch indeed:roll:

[Pointguard]

Dirk was playing 39 minutes a game in 03. The next highest big was 23 minutes. Think about that.

Then think about Nash, Finley, and Nick making up the next 3 highest minute players. Nash is one of the worst defenders of all time...he's horrific.

Finley and Nick were both subpar.

Please actually think about this.

Dirk is the only big playing large minutes...the next 3 guys either suck or are bad defensively.

The team was terrible defensively without Dirk in the game.

Amare admitted he wasn't that good defensively. And his team looked horrible defensively. He was by far the best big defender on his team and he did take the harder cover. They were 13th in the league. If Dirk is taking the weaker cover he isn't the defensive backbone of that team. LaFrentz and Najera have the bigger responsibility.


Please explain how a bad defender can do this. It's almost impossible for the 03 Mavs to have those rankings if Dirk is as bad on defense as you claim.
I just showed you how Amare admitted to being a bad defender when he was in the same situation except that he took the tougher cover. Which is what a step up defender does. I can't give Dirk more credit than Amare because Amare showed that he was going to take the responsibility. If Dirk is good defensively and he doesn't take the responsibility its not good, its better for him to step aside and let the better players do it. You're saying he was the best but rather see his team take the responsibility. Neither is good or practical. A leader doesn't accept second hand work unless it's better work.


If role and teammates don't matter...then you are going to have a tough time explaining what happened to KG's wolves from 05 through 07. Did KG just forget how to play defense? Or will you be logical and reasonable and talk about the team?

You are comparing KG to Dirk defensively, now.


And honestly...just KG's whole career in Minny...riddled with shitty defensive teams. Only two times did they have a top 10 defense. ROFL...hey...if teammates and role don't matter...be consistent...why aren't you hammering KG?
I know you never had a TV, but you can see good defense if you know what is happening in the game but that's asking too much from you. KG held every player below their average, and outscored Dirk in their primes. KG was one of the best help defenders ever. Are you seriously getting this stupid. If KG took the weaker cover, he's easily the best rebounder ever as well. That's a tremendous advantage. KG played defense with his feet as well, which pulls you further from the rim as well, never mind the help defense which also pulls him away. You are talking about 17 or 18 rebounds per game with the highest rebounding percentage ever. And he gets that one basket difference to be on par with Dirk in scoring.

While you are on this incredibly stupid way of merging team defense as a way to gauge individual defense, which has you making the dumbest comparisons ever. This is exactly what Kareem was talking about. Dirk is being discussed in some parallel discussion of defense with KG. This is exactly why Kareem and others have to make the distinction of 25 ft players vs the 90. This madness has gone crazy. Here's a guy that lead his team to the conference finals while leading his team in nearly every major category being compare to a guy who rarely ventured to the third category. Its much better to compare Amer'e to Dirk.

Amare never gets called a good rebounder but if he takes the weaker cover he's extremely likely get more rebounds than Dirk. His best scoring years were very similar to Dirks better years and he shot much better from the field and he lead the league in TS% one year, something Dirk never came close to doing and Amare's prime year TS% in general was better than Dirk's best. If he takes the weaker cover, the game is easier for him. When he was healthy his teams were never bottom five like Dirk's teams were a couple of times, despite Amare having more responsibility.

[Kobe_6/8]

One-trick pony :lol :lol

Dirk broke ground for foreign players in the NBA, and has had an elite Hall of Fame career.

He may not have the hardware of Grant/Rodman/Bosh/etc. but his 1 MVP & 1 FMVP have made him a top 20 player all-time.

[He Strong]

KAJ just upset that somebody came up with a move that was nearly unstoppable and comparable to his own unstoppable move.

[DMAVS41]

Amare admitted he wasn't that good defensively. And his team looked horrible defensively. He was by far the best big defender on his team and he did take the harder cover. They were 13th in the league. If Dirk is taking the weaker cover he isn't the defensive backbone of that team. LaFrentz and Najera have the bigger responsibility.

I just showed you how Amare admitted to being a bad defender when he was in the same situation except that he took the tougher cover. Which is what a step up defender does. I can't give Dirk more credit than Amare because Amare showed that he was going to take the responsibility. If Dirk is good defensively and he doesn't take the responsibility its not good, its better for him to step aside and let the better players do it. You're saying he was the best but rather see his team take the responsibility. Neither is good or practical. A leader doesn't accept second hand work unless it's better work.

You are comparing KG to Dirk defensively, now.

I know you never had a TV, but you can see good defense if you know what is happening in the game but that's asking too much from you. KG held every player below their average, and outscored Dirk in their primes. KG was one of the best help defenders ever. Are you seriously getting this stupid. If KG took the weaker cover, he's easily the best rebounder ever as well. That's a tremendous advantage. KG played defense with his feet as well, which pulls you further from the rim as well, never mind the help defense which also pulls him away. You are talking about 17 or 18 rebounds per game with the highest rebounding percentage ever. And he gets that one basket difference to be on par with Dirk in scoring.

While you are on this incredibly stupid way of merging team defense as a way to gauge individual defense, which has you making the dumbest comparisons ever. This is exactly what Kareem was talking about. Dirk is being discussed in some parallel discussion of defense with KG. This is exactly why Kareem and others have to make the distinction of 25 ft players vs the 90. This madness has gone crazy. Here's a guy that lead his team to the conference finals while leading his team in nearly every major category being compare to a guy who rarely ventured to the third category. Its much better to compare Amer'e to Dirk.

Amare never gets called a good rebounder but if he takes the weaker cover he's extremely likely get more rebounds than Dirk. His best scoring years were very similar to Dirks better years and he shot much better from the field and he lead the league in TS% one year, something Dirk never came close to doing and Amare's prime year TS% in general was better than Dirk's best. If he takes the weaker cover, the game is easier for him. When he was healthy his teams were never bottom five like Dirk's teams were a couple of times, despite Amare having more responsibility.


Let's, again, make this simple.

You claim Dirk is a bad defender.

I present you tons of evidence from both the individual metrics and team metrics that show this isn't true.

I then show you a team...a team with Dirk playing 39 minutes as the main big. Not one other big averaged over 23 minutes a game...and those bigs were not anything of note defensively at all.

Then, to make matters worse for you, the next 3 leading minute players on the Mavs were either historically bad...or not good.

So, I ask again, how can a bad defender...playing as a big...somehow be on that team playing the most minutes as the 9th best defense.

And again, why was the defense so much worse without him?

These are questions you can't answer.

Not sure why you bring up Amare...the 17th and 16th best defense is far different than the 9th best defense.

They year, in 07, they finished 13th...the Suns had peak Shawn Marion playing nearly 40 minutes a game. A caliber of defender that was light years ahead of anyone the Mavs had.

They also had Raja Bell on the perimeter...again, a player light years ahead of any perimeter defender the Mavs had in 03.

Amare only played 32.8 minutes per game as well...Dirk played 39.

Do I need to go on destroying you?

Sure...I will.

The Suns defense got 2.6 points better when Amare wasn't on the court.

Remember, the Mavs defense was 6 points worse without Dirk.

You see how your comparison makes no sense?


The KG stuff is brought up because role and teammates matter. Even an all time great defender like KG wasn't getting teams to elite defense unless he had the right help.

So, it's a double standard to go hard on Dirk in some situations like you did because you don't say anything about KG's defensive teams and their struggles many many many years.

Please try to type something coherent and make relevant comparisons please.

Nobody needs to make any distinctions...we all know what kind of player Dirk was. He just happened to be a lot better than ignorant fans/players thought. It's why smart people in the know vote him over the likes of Barkley and KG and do so without blinking.

And we have to talk about them as players, because if we are really talking about a career...Dirk shits on the guys you bring up...now with the Amare stuff. LOL

[Pointguard]

[/LEFT]
Let's, again, make this simple.

You claim Dirk is a bad defender.

I present you tons of evidence from both the individual metrics and team metrics that show this isn't true.
I never said he was a bad defender so your whole premise is wrong yet again.


I then show you a team...a team with Dirk playing 39 minutes as the main big. Not one other big averaged over 23 minutes a game...and those bigs were not anything of note defensively at all.

Then, to make matters worse for you, the next 3 leading minute players on the Mavs were either historically bad...or not good.

So, I ask again, how can a bad defender...playing as a big...somehow be on that team playing the most minutes as the 9th best defense. Is the Amare example over your head?

Then you say the other bigs who aren't good defenders are guarding Dirk's man if he really good offensively??? So bad defenders are brought in over Dirk when Dirk can't handle the best at his position. In your mind, Dirk is so good defensively, he triggers coaches to make series of dumb irrational chess moves that only you can understand. Alot of things have to be in order, for a player to take weaker covers if all of the personnel is weak.


And again, why was the defense so much worse without him?

These are questions you can't answer.
Substitutions are almost always done in patterns. You are trying way too hard. And even if he had this good year its cancelled out by the surrounding years where he was bad. At best, his first 4 years, 3 are bad - people are getting career highs, moved to weaker cover, lack of blocked shots and steals are not things that happen to good defenders. So what if he had a good year? He's still on the bad side at best. So now are you ready to quote other years 1 good to three bad isnt cutting it.


Not sure why you bring up Amare...the 17th and 16th best defense is far different than the 9th best defense.
13th best isnt at all.


They year, in 07, they finished 13th...the Suns had peak Shawn Marion playing nearly 40 minutes a game. A caliber of defender that was light years ahead of anyone the Mavs had.

So when stats say Amare was the best defensively it doesn't count right. Regular season and post season combined he was the best on the team.


Amare only played 32.8 minutes per game as well...Dirk played 39.
So its establish that Amare is the better rebounder and shot blocker and more willing to take the better defender then Dirk. Not sure how this helped you. With more minutes he definitely gets more rebounds and more blocked shots than Dirk. And he admits he's not good in those areas.


Do I need to go on destroying you?

:lol


The Suns defense got 2.6 points better when Amare wasn't on the court.
Not if he has someone to take the stronger cover!


The KG stuff is brought up because role and teammates matter. Even an all time great defender like KG wasn't getting teams to elite defense unless he had the right help.

So, it's a double standard to go hard on Dirk in some situations like you did because you don't say anything about KG's defensive teams and their struggles many many many years.

Unless your sight is inverted there is no way you can't see his defense is superior. If you need stats you simply have no trust in your understanding of the game.

In general, this board rarely ever goes to team stats to look at individual impact like you do above. Its primarily used for Dirk because he needs it. No need to do it when all is plain. You looking at team stats is yet another level of you not being able to use the better deciphering tool.


Please try to type something coherent and make relevant comparisons please.
When I respond to you I always feel like Hulk slamming Loki, well ok a drunk Loki around. You compared Dirk to KG defensively. And then you wonder why Kareem talks about rebounding, blocks and defense as being a well rounded player or 90 foot players.

[DMAVS41]

[/LEFT]
I never said he was a bad defender so your whole premise is wrong yet again.
Is the Amare example over your head?

Then you say the other bigs who aren't good defenders are guarding Dirk's man if he really good offensively??? So bad defenders are brought in over Dirk when Dirk can't handle the best at his position. In your mind, Dirk is so good defensively, he triggers coaches to make series of dumb irrational chess moves that only you can understand. Alot of things have to be in order, for a player to take weaker covers if all of the personnel is weak.

Substitutions are almost always done in patterns. You are trying way too hard. And even if he had this good year its cancelled out by the surrounding years where he was bad. At best, his first 4 years, 3 are bad - people are getting career highs, moved to weaker cover, lack of blocked shots and steals are not things that happen to good defenders. So what if he had a good year? He's still on the bad side at best. So now are you ready to quote other years 1 good to three bad isnt cutting it.
13th best isnt at all.

So when stats say Amare was the best defensively it doesn't count right. Regular season and post season combined he was the best on the team.
So its establish that Amare is the better rebounder and shot blocker and more willing to take the better defender then Dirk. Not sure how this helped you. With more minutes he definitely gets more rebounds and more blocked shots than Dirk. And he admits he's not good in those areas.

:lol

Not if he has someone to take the stronger cover!

Unless your sight is inverted there is no way you can't see his defense is superior. If you need stats you simply have no trust in your understanding of the game.

In general, this board rarely ever goes to team stats to look at individual impact like you do above. Its primarily used for Dirk because he needs it. No need to do it when all is plain. You looking at team stats is yet another level of you not being able to use the better deciphering tool.

When I respond to you I always feel like Hulk slamming Loki, well ok a drunk Loki around. You compared Dirk to KG defensively. And then you wonder why Kareem talks about rebounding, blocks and defense as being a well rounded player or 90 foot players.

Dude...nobody can even understand what you are arguing. You do this all the time and people don't even converse with you anymore.

I'm not arguing Dirk was better than KG on defense. I also don't know or care where all this Amare stuff is coming from. Dirk was a better player than Amare and it's not particularly close for me for a variety of reasons.

What patterns allow for what happened in 03...to happen? Dirk played the most minutes on the team. He played against the other teams best units way more than anyone else. He was on the floor with poor defenders frequently on the perimeter with Nash, Finley, and Nick.

If Dirk was one of the worst defenders on that team...it would be simply impossible for the 03 Mavs to be a good defense. Not only is he a big, but he played the most minutes. And, like I keep telling you, the Mavs got way worse without him on defense.

I've reached my limit of non sense from you on this topic. Dirk was an average to above average defender most of his prime...and a good to very good rebounder given his role.

He's in the class or better than KG all time. I know it hurts, but make peace with it at some point please.

You can have the last word...I'll avoid talking to you for a while...you frequently don't make sense...and it's very difficult to ever understand what your point actually is (I don't think you ever really know).

I just always need to remind myself that you are the same person that claimed the Cavs would have gone from sweeping the Hawks...to losing to them with a fully healthy team.

Any time I question why the ignorance and stupidity is so apparent...I just have to remember you uttered the single dumbest opinion on basketball I've ever heard in my life.

:rockon:

[pastis]

pointguard, what is yur agenda? dont you have other things to do?

rather start a debate between barkley and KG, would make more sense regarding the all-time ranking. AND NO STFU its incredible.

seriously, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM? WHAT? WHAT? WHAT?

try talk on realgm in the KG/Dirk debate. you will just get crushed you little uneducated ghetto clown

[Pointguard]

Dude...nobody can even understand what you are arguing. You do this all the time and people don't even converse with you anymore.
If I'm talking to you why would I care about others? Thats pretty stupid isnt it. I answer you directly. Sentence for sentence so you dont get lost. Its not a puzzle. You do the paragraph stuff so that you hide and not be direct. It also helps you go off tangents as well. I hit the Kareem quote every other post so you couldn't make this claim of me not having a common theme. You're hideously predictable.


I'm not arguing Dirk was better than KG on defense. I also don't know or care where all this Amare stuff is coming from. Dirk was a better player than Amare and it's not particularly close for me for a variety of reasons.
Amare is rarely called a good defender, rebounder or shot blocker (3 things Kareem mentioned). It not a problem if somebody says this. But say it about Dirk? Its a problem right.



What patterns allow for what happened in 03...to happen? Dirk played the most minutes on the team. He played against the other teams best units way more than anyone else. He was on the floor with poor defenders frequently on the perimeter with Nash, Finley, and Nick.

If Dirk was one of the worst defenders on that team...it would be simply impossible for the 03 Mavs to be a good defense. Not only is he a big, but he played the most minutes. And, like I keep telling you, the Mavs got way worse without him on defense.
If he's a help defender that means something. But he's guarding guys that are the lowest scoring guys on the court on purpose and getting All the credit.


I've reached my limit of non sense from you on this topic. Dirk was an average to above average defender most of his prime...and a good to very good rebounder given his role.
If you take the weaker cover you should be a better rebounder. Thats what the ROLE is supposed to help you do.


He's in the class or better than KG all time. I know it hurts, but make peace with it at some point please. Your word is gold. He's a better defender too right.


You can have the last word...I'll avoid talking to you for a while...you frequently don't make sense...and it's very difficult to ever understand what your point actually is (I don't think you ever really know). In my responses to I've stated Kareem's original contention seven times. if you cant pick up the common theme its on you. The rest were directed to your sidebars. You can feign ignorance but I know you know better.



Any time I question why the ignorance and stupidity is so apparent...I just have to remember you uttered the single dumbest opinion on basketball I've ever heard in my life.

:rockon:
CJ Watson a better defender than Rose while totally not knowing that the first unit is better offensively than the second unit. Left block and right block same skill set. KG a bad defender because he couldn't carry his team defensively. Oh I can go on and on. You never played ball dude.

[Pointguard]

pointguard, what is yur agenda? dont you have other things to do?

rather start a debate between barkley and KG, would make more sense regarding the all-time ranking. AND NO STFU its incredible.

seriously, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM? WHAT? WHAT? WHAT?

try talk on realgm in the KG/Dirk debate. you will just get crushed you little uneducated ghetto clown
How do you think KG got the higher ranking there idiot? You can't even discern what is happening in a debate bozo. Like I said above, I hit the Kareem theme nearly every post and you two cant catch it the first eight or nine times? Its proof that you guys got mental blocks.

[TheBigVeto]

Kareem is obviously getting senile here.. Dude forgot that Dirk was the 2nd greatest player of the Kobe era..

Yup after Duncan.