The reason I think "Hack-a-Shaq" must be changed

[TheCalmInsanity]

Basically, there's no counterplay to it.

In every game, there must be balance. You are allowed to use strategies but the other team must be allowed to counter them.

Take for example Rondo on the Celtics who couldn't shoot outside shots. The strategy is to sag off and invite him to shoot. The counter? Rondo chooses not to shoot.

In the Hack-a-Shaq strategy, you have literally no choice but to shoot. You're literally forced into your weakness.

So how come players who have other weaknesses (can't dribble, can't shoot, etc) can choose to not dribble or not shoot even if the opposing team dares them to, while bad free throw shooters can be sent to the line against their will?

[tmacattack33]

Basically, there's no counterplay to it.

In every game, there must be balance. You are allowed to use strategies but the other team must be allowed to counter them.

Take for example Rondo on the Celtics who couldn't shoot outside shots. The strategy is to sag off and invite him to shoot. The counter? Rondo chooses not to shoot.

In the Hack-a-Shaq strategy, you have literally no choice but to shoot. You're literally forced into your weakness.

So how come players who have other weaknesses (can't dribble, can't shoot, etc) can choose to not dribble or not shoot even if the opposing team dares them to, while bad free throw shooters can be sent to the line against their will?

You've never seen someone get forced into their weakness?

You ever watch a bad/slow defender be purposefully put into pick and roles by the offense and attacked?

Anyway, the current counter is to take the bad FT shooter out of the game...which I've seen with DeAndre Jordan.

[LAZERUSS]

Or allow the dunking of FTAs.

Like Chamberlain was doing in the mid-50's. Let a player take three steps from behind the FT line, and jump behind from the line.

Has to be a dunk, though.

[kennethgriffin]

it doesnt even work. this has been proven countless times





even if youre a 50% free throw shooter. youl make 1 out of 2 each time up the floor


thats 2 points every 2 possessions

which is 50% fg's



most teams hope to hit 50% of their shots

[LAZERUSS]

it doesnt even work. this has been proven countless times





even if youre a 50% free throw shooter. youl make 1 out of 2 each time up the floor


thats 2 points every 2 possessions

which is 50% fg's



most teams hope to hit 50% of their shots

Not so sure any more. I believe the Warriors are averaging something like 1.1 points per possession... or 2.2 points per 2 possessions.

And then when you factor in that guys like Drummond and Jordan are way below 50%...

[Magic 32]

It's a non-basketball play.

One FT and the ball

The end.

[FKAri]

I LOVE hack-a-shaq. They should get rid of the final 2 min restriction as well

Counterplay: Bench the scrub who can't hit his free throws.

[Young X]

it doesnt even work. this has been proven countless times





even if youre a 50% free throw shooter. youl make 1 out of 2 each time up the floor


thats 2 points every 2 possessions

which is 50% fg's



most teams hope to hit 50% of their shots:facepalm

This is why FG% is outdated.

2 points per 2 possessions isn't good.

That's a 100 ORtg which is terrible offense.

This current Laker team that is 10-41 has that exact same offensive efficiency.

[bdreason]

Coach can bench the player if he doesn't think he can hit the FT's.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

I LOVE hack-a-shaq. They should get rid of the final 2 min restriction as well

Counterplay: Bench the scrub who can't hit his free throws.

:cheers:

If anything the 2 minute restriction is blatantly biased towards players who can't shoot FT's. Why should scrubs who can't hit their free throws be given a clutch?

[TheCalmInsanity]

You've never seen someone get forced into their weakness?

You ever watch a bad/slow defender be purposefully put into pick and roles by the offense and attacked?

Anyway, the current counter is to take the bad FT shooter out of the game...which I've seen with DeAndre Jordan.

There's counterplay to bad/slow defenders... switch, help side, etc.

Taking a player out of the game isn't counterplay, it's removing an asset from the game because there's no lack of counterplay. It's taking the whole situation out of the game for both sides, which is terrible.

[TheCalmInsanity]

:cheers:

If anything the 2 minute restriction is blatantly biased towards players who can't shoot FT's. Why should scrubs who can't hit their free throws be given a clutch?

Why should they get intentionally fouled if they didn't have the ball? Why do teams get a clutch by using this strategy and not having to play defense at all?

[dhsilv]

Basically, there's no counterplay to it.

In every game, there must be balance. You are allowed to use strategies but the other team must be allowed to counter them.

Take for example Rondo on the Celtics who couldn't shoot outside shots. The strategy is to sag off and invite him to shoot. The counter? Rondo chooses not to shoot.

In the Hack-a-Shaq strategy, you have literally no choice but to shoot. You're literally forced into your weakness.

So how come players who have other weaknesses (can't dribble, can't shoot, etc) can choose to not dribble or not shoot even if the opposing team dares them to, while bad free throw shooters can be sent to the line against their will?

no you just don't play guys who can't shoot free throws. It's the easiest thing to counter ever.

[dhsilv]

it doesnt even work. this has been proven countless times





even if youre a 50% free throw shooter. youl make 1 out of 2 each time up the floor


thats 2 points every 2 possessions

which is 50% fg's



most teams hope to hit 50% of their shots


Depends on the timing of the game, there's also a huge variance and the hope is that there's oh man i forget my stats, leprskopic or whatever skews the data to the left and thus means when guys do well they do really well and the median is lower than the mean. Not sure I've seen the data though.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Making them is a counter, which has no counter so youre wrong dumbass fagggot bitch.
opposing players cant block free throws.

dumbass

[Heavincent]

The counter is to make the free throws.

[TheCalmInsanity]

Making them is a counter, which has no counter so youre wrong dumbass fagggot bitch.
opposing players cant block free throws.

dumbass

LOL so angry

Making them isn't a counter. If he made them there would be no fouling, the situation wouldn't exist so there's nothing to counter.

But the point of this thread wasn't how to avoid being fouled. It's to balance the situation when it happens.

Not every player should be deliberately forced to face their weakness. Pair that with the fact that it's your team's ONLY choice on offense. The other team is literally making your team have no choice but to watch the free throw shooter.

Whereas if another player has a weakness (outside shooting, post game, etc) the other 4 players still have an option to take the shots so that the bad shooter doesnt.

[FKAri]

There's counterplay to bad/slow defenders... switch, help side, etc.

Taking a player out of the game isn't counterplay, it's removing an asset from the game because there's no lack of counterplay. It's taking the whole situation out of the game for both sides, which is terrible.


LOL so angry

Making them isn't a counter. If he made them there would be no fouling, the situation wouldn't exist so there's nothing to counter.

But the point of this thread wasn't how to avoid being fouled. It's to balance the situation when it happens.

Not every player should be deliberately forced to face their weakness. Pair that with the fact that it's your team's ONLY choice on offense. The other team is literally making your team have no choice but to watch the free throw shooter.

Whereas if another player has a weakness (outside shooting, post game, etc) the other 4 players still have an option to take the shots so that the bad shooter doesnt.

lmao. wtf is this shit? Every player is forced to face their weakness every single game. When the weakness is too much for the team to overcome, the player is subbed.

There are at least a dozen things far more problematic in the NBA than the hack-a-whoever strategy.

Off the top of my head:

- what the fucc is the an actual flagrant really?

- if a player falls awkwardly it flagrant?

- if someone makes a play at the ball and murders the player is it flagrant?

- isn't every obviously intentional foul flagrant?

- how come verticality is called (or not called) based on how hard the offensive player crashed into the defender?

- refs have no clue of how to officiate players fighting through moving screens. The difference between an offensive foul, defensive foul, and no call is miniscule

- how come no ref can actually throw a proper jumpball?

- if i catch the ball and take 10 steps before dribbling how is it not a travel? how vague is their definition of "having possession"?

- if i take 2 steps then take 10 eurosteps during my "gather" its legal?

- is carrying legal or illegal? Pick one and stick to it

[Spurs5Rings2014]

^ You forgot stiff arms, but other than that, good list.

[Kobe_6/8]

So how come players who have other weaknesses (can't dribble, can't shoot, etc) can choose to not dribble or not shoot even if the opposing team dares them to, while bad free throw shooters can be sent to the line against their will?

Because this is the NBA...it is supposed to be competitive.

There is no reason to remove "Hack-a-Shaq", if anything it should inspire future and current players to work on their free throws.

[oarabbus]

The counterplay is to make your free throws

[Asukal]

Or allow the dunking of FTAs.

Like Chamberlain was doing in the mid-50's. Let a player take three steps from behind the FT line, and jump behind from the line.

Has to be a dunk, though.

You are beyond stupid. :facepalm

[3ball]

Centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to wing players, but the advantage they give their team relative to those wing players depends on how their impact compares to other centers, not wing players.

For example, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE when his defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pippen/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP of their position defensively, while he didn't - Shaq only achieved three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. So on average, perennial 1st team defenders like MJ/Pippen/Lebron gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided their team with a bigger defensive impact.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DPBM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, center Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team?????. Again, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "defensive box score" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact that a player can provide.. But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact - the main point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams - they ranked in the league's top 6 only 1 time in 15 years thru his Miami days, and top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even though Shaq had all-pro defenders Eddie Jones, Kobe, Wade and Horace Grant (in 1995 and 1996).

He also had Alonzo Mourning in 2006, who led the Heat bench (2.7 blocks in 20 minutes).. In 2001, his team had the 21st ranked defense despite being stacked defensively with all-pro defender Kobe and other solid defenders like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and Horace Grant (he started every game).

[Gileraracer]

Everyone can choose to practice free throws

[aj1987]

You are beyond stupid. :facepalm
In Loozerus' mind, Wilt can do all that stuff.

[Adam Silver]

The counter is to make the free throws.
This is what I believe, but I'm getting tired of fans, the Pistons, the Rockets, and the Clippers crying, so I'm considering making a change.

[Derka]

Part of growing as a player is learning to play around your weaknesses.

Make your damn free throws and this strategy is a complete non-starter. Basketball doesn't need its equivalent of an Idiocracy-type move instituted over this.

[Levity]

im more curious about what you guys think about how teams are manipulating the rule under 2 mins to go.

If team A gets to the free throw line with under 2 mins left, with team B having a bad FT shooter lined up for a rebound, Team A purposely fouls that Team B player when "fighting for rebounding position" sending that bad FT shooter from Team B to the line.

ive seen that done a few times as recently as last month.

[FKAri]

There are some changes that I have in mind. When a player (any player) misses BOTH free throws, a short, fat, 10 year old kid with steel toe boots and a smirk on his face gets to come onto the court and kick the player in the balls. This would add excitement, suspense and make the whole ordeal entertaining for the fans.

[Adam Silver]

Here is what I am thinking:
- Once in penalty, teams get to choose to shoot the free throws or take the ball out of bounds if the penalty is before the final 2 minutes of a quarter
- Once in the final 2 minutes of a quarter, players must shoot free throws if in penalty

[alexthegod]

How about...make your damn free throws!

I have no issues with the Hack a whoever. It forces the player to make his shots or forces the coach to take him out.

[Magic 32]

How about...make your damn free throws!

I have no issues with the Hack a whoever. It forces the player to make his shots or forces the coach to take him out.

This is about entertainment.

And you don't additionally penalize players who can't dribble the ball or play defense.

[alexthegod]

This is about entertainment.

And you don't additionally penalize players who can't dribble the ball or play defense.

I'll agree its not pretty to watch at times, but it is not a penalty. bad defenders get exposed, they get pulled out of the game, bad dribblers make turnovers they get pulled from the game, bad free throwers, well pull them out then.

I would argue that you are rewarding a bad free thrower by making it harder to send him to the line.

If there is a bad defender there is no rule to stop you from taking advantage of him. No rule for protecting a bad dribbler. There should be no rule to protect a bad free thrower.

In all reality it comes down to just a few star players that cant make their free throws. Just because 3 or 4 players cant hit their free throws, you need to change rules?

[alexthegod]

it doesnt even work. this has been proven countless times





even if youre a 50% free throw shooter. youl make 1 out of 2 each time up the floor


thats 2 points every 2 possessions

which is 50% fg's



most teams hope to hit 50% of their shots

It would seem on paper you are correct. However in reality you are also taking the opposing offense out of their rhythm. Score back to back baskets and you've just outscored your opponent 4-2. Then when you stop doing it, it can very likely mess up a few of your opponents offensive possessions. Sometimes interrupting the opposing offense is even more effective than the potential misses at the free throw line. Gets the other team thinking instead of playing on instinct.

[Magic 32]

bad defenders get exposed, they get pulled out of the game, bad dribblers make turnovers they get pulled from the game, bad free throwers, well pull them out then.


I don't think you reward anybody for bad FT shooting by not fouling them in non-basketball acts.

I just don't agree.

bad defenders get exposed and gets scored on.

bad dribblers make turnovers and it leads to points in the other end.

bad free throwers miss free throws and don't get as many points when they get fouled during shots or goes for and-1's

But you don't stop the game and make the bad defender go one-on-one or make the bad dribbler the point guard for 2 minutes.

[Goofsta Knicca]

Convert it to a 3 point play like dis goofyass knicca: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRfAc86KpxI

[Adam Silver]

Rules aren't modified for other weaknesses because they don't stop the game play.

[tpols]

Or allow the dunking of FTAs.

Like Chamberlain was doing in the mid-50's. Let a player take three steps from behind the FT line, and jump behind from the line.

Has to be a dunk, though.

that.. would be a tremendous waste of energy

[Smook B]

Don't change the rule over half a dozen guys.

[Adam Silver]

Don't change the rule over half a dozen guys.
The rule wouldn't be changed for the players, it would be changed for the crybaby bitches who get bored by free throws.

[Rake2204]

I'll agree its not pretty to watch at times, but it is not a penalty. bad defenders get exposed, they get pulled out of the game, bad dribblers make turnovers they get pulled from the game, bad free throwers, well pull them out then.

I would argue that you are rewarding a bad free thrower by making it harder to send him to the line.

If there is a bad defender there is no rule to stop you from taking advantage of him. No rule for protecting a bad dribbler. There should be no rule to protect a bad free thrower.

In all reality it comes down to just a few star players that cant make their free throws. Just because 3 or 4 players cant hit their free throws, you need to change rules?I believe the issue is complicated by the fact that the strategy used as a means of exploiting another team's weakness (free throw shooting) is a purposeful illegal act.

Penalties were created in basketball to prevent and dissuade teams from breaking the rules... because breaking the rules of the game means someone's not playing the game correctly.

As it stands, through a loophole (one that most often doesn't exist at other levels such as FIBA and high school), teams have been able to find a way to purposely break the rules as a means of benefiting (basically, they're committing intentional fouls without having them considered intentional).

I believe the onus is the league in this case, not the free throw shooter. The idea is to implement rules that can't be circumvented as a means of yielding positive results from purposely committing illegal acts.

It's not about protecting a bad free throw shooter to me. It's about not giving a defensive unit the cop out of trying to succeed by purposely failing.

Poor free throw shooters are going to hamper teams regardless. Removing the backcourt intentional hug will simply rid of a ridiculous glitch in the system.

[Pointguard]

The league can't be having $500 tickets and the game looking horrible. It just kills a game. Lower the ticket prices if a team with a bad free throw shooter is on it. I would Its not basketball.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

How many players actually regularly get hack-a-shaq-ed? Like a handful? DJ, Drummond, Dwight, who else?

Also what's with the D named players not able to shoot FTs?

[swagga]

modern nba fans are just dumb bandwagoners who don't have time to watch the entire game, because they have a strict timeline for their hipster/corporate/soccer mom nights out. They want to see the big athletic players that dunk, not basketball. That's how they are able to fill that facebook/instagram/twitter to justify for being there. Just look at the fcking crowds and you'll see why silver is doing this, besides curry/kobe/lebron/wade/harden they can't even name other players.

When is the last time you talked to one of these fagqots? The old ones still think MJ would compete in this league at 50 and the new ones think curry's daughter is cute and that's why he is their favorite player.

Just another rule to shit on the game, nothing new here. Y'all people need to see the writing on the wall here, NBA is getting into asia/japan, and it needs to cater to that high basketball IQ audience. Soon there won't be any freethrows, just dunks from the FT line.

[Adam Silver]

The league can't be having $500 tickets and the game looking horrible. It just kills a game. Lower the ticket prices if a team with a bad free throw shooter is on it. I would Its not basketball.
That is not happening. The real game is money. You will never be commish.

[alexthegod]

I believe the issue is complicated by the fact that the strategy used as a means of exploiting another team's weakness (free throw shooting) is a purposeful illegal act.

Penalties were created in basketball to prevent and dissuade teams from breaking the rules... because breaking the rules of the game means someone's not playing the game correctly.

As it stands, through a loophole (one that most often doesn't exist at other levels such as FIBA and high school), teams have been able to find a way to purposely break the rules as a means of benefiting (basically, they're committing intentional fouls without having them considered intentional).

I believe the onus is the league in this case, not the free throw shooter. The idea is to implement rules that can't be circumvented as a means of yielding positive results from purposely committing illegal acts.

It's not about protecting a bad free throw shooter to me. It's about not giving a defensive unit the cop out of trying to succeed by purposely failing.

Poor free throw shooters are going to hamper teams regardless. Removing the backcourt intentional hug will simply rid of a ridiculous glitch in the system.

Very good point, excellent response What about intentional fouling when the clock is running out and a team needs extra possessions? Intentional fouling when the clock is running down at the end of quarters to force the team to take it out of bounds and have to set up all over again?

Everyone wants an edge and will use the rules accordingly to gain that edge. It will be interesting to see if they tinker with the rule at all.

[alexthegod]

How many players actually regularly get hack-a-shaq-ed? Like a handful? DJ, Drummond, Dwight, who else?

Also what's with the D named players not able to shoot FTs?

You are correct, very few. DeAndre Jordan and Timmy Duncan. It's not like it is done by every team. There are very few teams who chose to employ that strategy.

Damn, your one to something, two more D names lol. Hack a D!

[rmt]

You are correct, very few. DeAndre Jordan and Timmy Duncan. It's not like it is done by every team. There are very few teams who chose to employ that strategy.

Damn, your one to something, two more D names lol. Hack a D!

Duncan has a 70% career free throw shooting percentage. He does not get hacked.

[Adam Silver]

Very good point, excellent response What about intentional fouling when the clock is running out and a team needs extra possessions? Intentional fouling when the clock is running down at the end of quarters to force the team to take it out of bounds and have to set up all over again?

Everyone wants an edge and will use the rules accordingly to gain that edge. It will be interesting to see if they tinker with the rule at all.
I won't change that. Nobody wants to see the clock dribbled out, they want to see buzzer beaters.

[alexthegod]

Duncan has a 70% career free throw shooting percentage. He does not get hacked.

It hasn't happened often, but it has happened. in his earlier days he shot in the 60's

[Shih508]

The counter is to make the free throws.

Or sit those scrubs on bench who can't make FT! You want to play, you have to make your FT

[Pointguard]

That is not happening. The real game is money. You will never be commish.
Great Commy, lower the products look and feel and expect the consumer to pay for you to embarrass yourself. 2 years and you will be the D league's spokesperson.

[T_L_P]

Or allow the dunking of FTAs.

Like Chamberlain was doing in the mid-50's. Let a player take three steps from behind the FT line, and jump behind from the line.

Has to be a dunk, though.

Jesus Christ. :facepalm

[Adam Silver]

Great Commy, lower the products look and feel and expect the consumer to pay for you to embarrass yourself. 2 years and you will be the D league's spokesperson.
In 2 years I'll be making bank off of advertisements on jerseys while you cry like a bitch about it.

[keep-itreal]

I have a better solution, work on your free throws

[Pointguard]

In 2 years I'll be making bank off of advertisements on jerseys while you cry like a bitch about it.
Madam Silver, I'm hot dam Gold. You just got dam old.

[Adam Silver]

Madam Silver, I'm hot dam Gold. You just got dam old.
Enjoy trying to get "discovered" as a rapper while I'm rolling in this free throw money.

[Rake2204]

Very good point, excellent response What about intentional fouling when the clock is running out and a team needs extra possessions? Intentional fouling when the clock is running down at the end of quarters to force the team to take it out of bounds and have to set up all over again?

Everyone wants an edge and will use the rules accordingly to gain that edge. It will be interesting to see if they tinker with the rule at all.Apologies for the late response, lost track of this thread until someone bumped it.

I think there's room for nuance when it comes to working with the rules here. And typically, late-game on-ball fouls are difficult to ascertain as being 100 percent intentional, so I think it'd be a very tough, if not impossible undertaking to remove that from the game.

The away-from-the-ball fouls, however — the Hack-a-Shaq variety where a guy like K.J. McDaniels just randomly hugs Andre Drummond 50 feet away from the play — are easy plays to decipher. They're egregiously intentional fouls with no real room to pretend or claim otherwise. So in that case, again, it's a team purposely not playing by the rules in hopes of gaining an advantage. It's a loophole that's been exploited, but a very easy one to correct (two free throws and possession).

The league's been down this road before. As I'm sure a lot of folks here remember quite well, most last second inbound plays during the 1990's were preceded by a defender purposely stepping over the sideline to commit a delay of game violation.

The idea was to let the offense begin their inbound play, watch how the play was unfolding, then commit the violation before the ball could be inbounded so the defense could get a feel for what the offensive team would be trying to do.

Once again, it was a team exploiting a loophole as a means of trying to gain an advantage by purposely breaking the rules. The NBA stomped that out long ago, assessing an automatic technical foul to any team who commits a delay of game in a contest's final two minutes (whether they had a warning to burn or not).

Quite honestly, I imagine Hack-a-Shaq will be snuffed out just as well, and everyone will forget that people ever objected to its removal.

Lastly, I know folks are fixated on the free throw side of it, but I see it more as removing a wack non-basketball play, regardless of who's stepping up to the line. Andre Drummond's still going to be an awful free throw shooter and he's still going to cost the Pistons plenty of games because of his shortcoming. The only difference would be that teams would have to play the game of basketball more often, as opposed to skipping defense and opting to hug it out.

PS: I've seen some asking about the statistics of Hack-a-Shaq. I believe I read that Amir Johnson became the 27th Hack-a-Shaq victim of the season as of late January. Also, there were 162 Hack-a-Shaq moments all last year. There's already been close to 300 such instances this season.