ESPN Ranks Kobe as 12th All TIME. Name me 11 players w/ Better Resume

[imnew09]

LMFAO DA FU THEY SMOKIN". Get Off that Lebeta D***

Name me 11 Players with better resume than this.

2x Gold Olympic Medal
3rd All Time Scoring List
5

[FKAri]

Dick Fitzgerald (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Fitzgerald_%28basketball%29)

A 6'2" forward from Fordham University,[1] Fitzgerald played parts of two seasons (1946

[riseagainst]

[QUOTE=FKAri]Dick Fitzgerald (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Fitzgerald_%28basketball%29)

A 6'2" forward from Fordham University,[1] Fitzgerald played parts of two seasons (1946

[imnew09]

OSCAR FKEN ROBertson Rank 11th LOL LMFAO

with

NBA champion (1971)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1964)
12

[dubeta]

He's actually supposed to be 18th all time

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/cd/cdb310ad67072458a3390322c315849d700d58692c606c2905 f09b8c167cfdb1.jpg


ESPN was being generous

[zeerghit]

12 is fair place lebron cant be higher than 10, if he's higher is pure bullshit.

[zeerghit]

[QUOTE=imnew09]LMFAO DA FU THEY SMOKIN". Get Off that Lebeta D***

Name me 11 Players with better resume than this.

2x Gold Olympic Medal
3rd All Time Scoring List
5

[imnew09]

SHAQ, WILT,RUSSEL,BIRD,MAGIC,KAREEM,JORDAN,OSCAR,DUNCAN, HAKEEM FOR SURE other debatable


This is Oscars resume

NBA champion (1971)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1964)
12

[zeerghit]

[QUOTE=imnew09]This is Oscars resume

NBA champion (1971)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1964)
12

[Xiengqichess]

ESPN just prove Kobe was right: They are idiots!

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=imnew09]This is Oscars resume

NBA champion (1971)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1964)
12

[dankok8]

I have Kobe ranked #11.

Tier 1

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell

Tier 2

4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Lebron

Tier 3

9. Hakeem
10. Duncan
11. Kobe


By virtue of being in the same tier, Kobe has a case over Hakeem and Duncan. ESPN seems to have put Oscar ahead of Kobe which I can see as well. Certainly not a travesty.

[AirBonner]

Most missed shots in nba history

[ISHGoat]

Meltdown.

[Hey Yo]

Most missed shots in nba history
17-47

[Gus Hemmingway]

17-47
:roll: :roll:


PA


THE


TIC

[tmacattack33]

I'd have him 12-14. You should be slightly happy that ESPN put him on the higher end of that.

There's another bball forum out there where idiot homers get banned. Kobe is like 14th on their list.

[G-Funk]

Who's ahead of him?

Jordan
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Wilt
Russell
Shaquille
Duncan

????

[G-Funk]

Damn I just noticed they put All time defensive teams for Jerry West but not Kobe.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank160205/all-nbarank-11-15

[Moonbeam]

It just depends on what you value. Here's a post I made on RealGM several months ago about Kobe's case for top 10.

I think Kobe's case for top 10 is one that takes accolades and titles into account more than I do. That's not to say it's unreasonable - I just don't have him there.

The number of championships a player's teams have won means little to me; my perception of the player's performance is everything. I tend to think of ranking players within a season as tantamount to considering a footrace and asking "who is the fastest runner?", but each player has a different starting point based on teammate quality, coaching, injuries, etc. Whoever crosses the finish line first by way of winning a title as a lead guy may not be the fastest runner.

If you approach it from a stats perspective, Kobe doesn't look like a strong top-10 candidate.

Career PER: 20th
Career Win Shares: 18th despite great longevity
Career WS/48: 42nd
Career Box Plus Minus (only available since 1974): 29th
Career VORP (only available since 1974): 16th

Career Playoff PER: 22nd
Career Playoff Win Shares: 8th
Career Playoff WS/48: 53rd
Career Playoff Box Plus Minus (only available since 1974): 39th
Career Playoff VORP (only available since 1974): 7th

Year by year:

Best season PER: 3rd in 2006, no other top 4 finishes
Best season Win Shares: 4th in 2006, 2007, and 2008
Best season in WS/48: 4th in 2004, no other top 5 finishes
Best season in Box Plus Minus: 5th in 2004
Best season in VORP: 3rd in 2008
Only twice in the top 10 of RAPM: 6th in 2008 and 9th in 2009

Of course the statistics don't tell us everything, and you could argue that a player's ultimate goal is to win championships, and Kobe has been excellent in this regard. In a sense, he often "did enough" for his team to win, so his statistical footprint in this regard might not be as great as someone like LeBron during the postseason in 2015, because he didn't have to individually produce as much for his team to achieve that goal.

Kobe is such a polarizing figure in part because his fan base and those who dislike him try to outdo each other to rile the other side up, it seems. I post on a Facebook page where many (perhaps even most) people have Kobe in their top 5, some as high as number 1. These fans often denigrate other great players like Duncan, LeBron, or MJ in order to prop up Kobe. As a reaction to this, you get people suggesting that "Shaq carried Kobe", laugh at the record for most missed field goals, etc. It gets to a point where you feel you have to walk on eggshells in order to have a conversation about him without inciting an angry response from someone. Honestly, I can't think of a more polarizing player, though LeBron is close.

As such, it's often fruitless to discuss Kobe's place in history. I've often been labelled as being a "hater" or "disrespectful" to Kobe for not having him in the top 10. My response to this is usually to provide a list of players I have ahead of him, which without fail draws a response of "you can't be serious - how can you have X ahead of Kobe?", to which I provide reasons for why I am high on player X and say, "why are you disrespectful of X?", but it generally stops there. Honestly, I think part of it is with the value we place in the number 10. There is something special about being "top 10" that doesn't feel the same as "top 15", even if there really isn't that big of a difference in the level of greatness in that region of the list.

I've got Kobe at 14th overall, but I could see an argument for him anywhere from 8-20 or so. If I see Kobe higher than that, I generally assume that person is a big Kobe fan, and that's ok! I think we all are prone to overvalue our favorites. I had Dantley at #45 when I made my list, and I'm sure some would balk at that. The nature of ranking players is a subjective exercise, and a lot of people take these rankings very much to heart.

[Magic 32]

Wait we care now?

[IncarceratedBob]

Today

[imnew09]

[QUOTE=IncarceratedBob]Today

[Smoke117]

Meltdown...besides you kobe stans there aren't a lot of people who are more than casual basketball fans that put Kobe top 10...that's just the way it is. The way you knuckleheads sometimes try and put him as the 2nd greatest after Jordan is just laughable.

[Kblaze8855]

John Havlicek won 8 rings 2 as his teams leader, was a 29/9/8 player in his prime, made 5-6 all D teams when it didnt exist to begin his career, and has more all nba first teams than some people ahead of him...have all star games. There are people ahead of him who never won anything and were never considered elite players. Clearly this isnt an issue of resume.

That plus the ring count will just never matter as much when you were not the best player for most of them.

Shaq gets the first 3 in the eyes of history and thats pretty much that.

We can argue what should be....not what is.

The best player gets the rings more heavily weighed. Just how it is.

[oh the horror]

Out of every single player to ever come before in the NBA, Is 12 all time really that bad?

[Magic 32]

John Havlicek won 8 rings 2 as his teams leader, was a 29/9/8 player in his prime, made 5-6 all D teams when it didnt exist to begin his career, and has more all nba first teams than some people ahead of him...have all star games. There are people ahead of him who never won anything and were never considered elite players. Clearly this isnt an issue of resume.

That plus the ring count will just never matter as much when you were not the best player for most of them.

Shaq gets the first 3 in the eyes of history and thats pretty much that.



This is ironic.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTId0VHCAAA6yfD.jpg

[Kblaze8855]

If Shaq had been the teams third leading scorer at the time like Dave Cowens perhaps Kobe would get more credit. But he wasnt. he was the near unquestioned best player in the world. Hondo led like 5 title teams in scoring in the playoffs. Shaq led all 3 of those Laker teams.

Besides the whole point was...Hondo doesnt get full credit.

He wasnt the most prominent guy on most of his title teams. So his resume isnt what it would be...if the rings were taken at face value. Same for Kobe.

As I said...all thats left is not liking it and arguing about if its fair.

But it is what it is. Best player on the team gets the most credit. So Kobe, Hondo, Wade and plenty of others dont get the full resume they would get if...a ring were a ring.

A ring is not a ring.

The ring a best player gets was, is, and always will be more highly regarded.

[Akhenaten]

If Shaq had been the teams third leading scorer at the time like Dave Cowens perhaps Kobe would get more credit. But he wasnt. he was the near unquestioned best player in the world. Hondo led like 5 title teams in scoring in the playoffs. Shaq led all 3 of those Laker teams.

Besides the whole point was...Hondo doesnt get full credit.

He wasnt the most prominent guy on most of his title teams. So his resume isnt what it would be...if the rings were taken at face value. Same for Kobe.

As I said...all thats left is not liking it and arguing about if its fair.

But it is what it is. Best player on the team gets the most credit. So Kobe, Hondo, Wade and plenty of others dont get the full resume they would get if...a ring were a ring.

A ring is not a ring.

The ring a best player gets was, is, and always will be more highly regarded.

This is why even though despicable what Kobe did in running Shaq out of town, it was absolutely understandable. Perception is everything, Shaq was entrenched psychologically in the public conscience as the clear cut best player on that team.

Kobe understood he would never achieve his aspirations as to how he would be regarded legacy wise and he did something about it. Dude is a super cornball but a big part of me respects immensely what he did.

[Smoke117]

This is why even though despicable what Kobe did in running Shaq out of town, it was absolutely understandle. Perception is everything, Shaq was entrenched psychologically in the public conscience as the clear cut best player on that team.

Kobe understood he would never achieve his aspirations as to how he would be regarded legacy wise and he did something about it. Dude is a super cornball but a big part of me respects immensely what he did.

The only problem with that...is that Kobe ran out a guy who was one of the three best players in the league and then when the Lakers couldn't immediately replace a guy of that levels impact...was basically demanding to be traded.

[DMV2]

Jordan: 6/6 that included four seasons with ring/FMVP/MVP/scoring title, and a million other shit.

Kareem: 6 rings, 6 MVP, 2 FMVP..

Chamberlain: 100 and 50PPG/25RPG season > 81 points vs the Craptors
Russell: 11 rings >>> 3 sidekick rings, 2 rings

Magic: 5 rings, 3 FMVP, 3 MVPs
Bird: 3 rings, 3 MVPs , 2 FMVPs, ROTY

Duncan: 5/3/2 > 5/2/1
Shaq: 3 FMVP, 1MVP(included a season with ring/FMVP/MVP) co-GOAT Finals 3-peat > 5 rings(3 sidekick ring, 2 FMVP rings)

LeBron: 4 MVP, 2 rings (included back-to-back seasons with rings, 2 FMVP, 2 MVP) > 2 rings, 2 FMVP, and 3 sidekick rings

So that's 9 that are obviously better.

Now it's between
Hakeem: a season(1994) with ring/MVP/FMVP/DPOTY/
and
Big O AKA Mr. Triple Double

vs 3 sidekick rings, 2 rings.

Maybe because Kobe has the most missed shot in NBA history, they counted that against him and favored Big O and Hakeem because of that.

[Marchesk]

[QUOTE=imnew09]This is Oscars resume

NBA champion (1971)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1964)
12

[Magic 32]

Jordan: 6/6 that included four seasons with ring/FMVP/MVP/scoring title, and a million other shit.


Sure.



Kareem: 6 rings, 6 MVP, 2 FMVP.


Sure.



Chamberlain: 100 and 50PPG/25RPG season > 81 points vs the Craptors


Sure. But don't pretend that Kobe's 81 point game was not more impressive than that circus in Pennsylvania.



Russell: 11 rings


Correct



Magic: 5 rings, 3 FMVP, 3 MVPs


Sure



Bird: 3 rings, 3 MVPs , 2 FMVPs, ROTY


Sure.



Duncan: 5/3/2 > 5/2/1


2-4 against Kobe in the playoffs. Played for an organisation that made him look relevant (2008-2010) even when he was as irelevant as some of Kobe's worst seasons. Played the worst finals teams ever and looked bad against the only decent one (2005 Pistons)



Shaq: 3 FMVP, 1MVP(included a season with ring/FMVP/MVP) co-GOAT Finals 3-peat > 5 rings(3 sidekick ring, 2 FMVP rings)

Swept more than any other great player. Wasted the 90's with terrible leadership. Used the regular season to play himself in shape after 2000 (breaking down his teammates in the process).
Had the best second option in history. Was useless in the clutch. Also won his FMVP's against some of the worst finals teams ever.

Not even going to dignify the rest.

[houston]

he should been been top 5

[coin24]

Why do people burn over ESPN? It's there job to create controversy and views.. They're the tmz of the sports world and a complete joke..
They're still hurt over Kobe calling them out as idiots:lol

Oscar over Kobe? :lol good one..

See all the love Kobe is getting in every arena? Must burn you haters deep inside, everyone loves the mamba except for a few no lifers on here (dubeta and his imaginary friend alts) and those virgins at LESPN

[ImKobe]

Can't take this ranking seriously....Oscar Robertson is the most overrated player of all-time in terms of his basketball career. He put up big numbers in an era that was rather weak for guards and fell off about 10 years into his career and would have retired with 0 rings without a young Kareem carrying him to a title. :kobe:

[dubeta]

Why do people burn over ESPN? It's there job to create controversy and views.. They're the tmz of the sports world and a complete joke..
They're still hurt over Kobe calling them out as idiots:lol

Oscar over Kobe? :lol good one..

See all the love Kobe is getting in every arena? Must burn you haters deep inside, everyone loves the mamba except for a few no lifers on here (dubeta and his imaginary friend alts) and those virgins at LESPN

Nobody respects Kobe and his baby cashew :lol

[coin24]

Jordan: 6/6 that included four seasons with ring/FMVP/MVP/scoring title, and a million other shit.

Kareem: 6 rings, 6 MVP, 2 FMVP..

Chamberlain: 100 and 50PPG/25RPG season > 81 points vs the Craptors
Russell: 11 rings >>> 3 sidekick rings, 2 rings

Magic: 5 rings, 3 FMVP, 3 MVPs
Bird: 3 rings, 3 MVPs , 2 FMVPs, ROTY

Duncan: 5/3/2 > 5/2/1
Shaq: 3 FMVP, 1MVP(included a season with ring/FMVP/MVP) co-GOAT Finals 3-peat > 5 rings(3 sidekick ring, 2 FMVP rings)

LeBron: 4 MVP, 2 rings (included back-to-back seasons with rings, 2 FMVP, 2 MVP) > 2 rings, 2 FMVP, and 3 sidekick rings

So that's 9 that are obviously better.

Now it's between
Hakeem: a season(1994) with ring/MVP/FMVP/DPOTY/
and
Big O AKA Mr. Triple Double

vs 3 sidekick rings, 2 rings.

Maybe because Kobe has the most missed shot in NBA history, they counted that against him and favored Big O and Hakeem because of that.


By your own stupid logic bran only has 2 sidekick rings, ring chasing in his prime:oldlol:

thats the only 2 he'll get.. Wade should be ranked higher than him

[dhsilv]

12 is fair place lebron cant be higher than 10, if he's higher is pure bullshit.

he can't be lower than 10....somewhere around 5 is where he should be. The comical under valuing of him...even if he's a total tool is absurd around here.

[coin24]

Nobody respects Kobe and his baby cashew :lol


Sounds more like your "life"

[SouBeachTalents]

By your own stupid logic bran only has 2 sidekick rings, ring chasing in his prime:oldlol:

thats the only 2 he'll get.. Wade should be ranked higher than him

How were LeBron's titles "sidekick rings", because they weren't on his original team? Were Wilt's & Shaq's titles sidekick rings based on this logic as well?

[tmacattack33]

Why do people burn over ESPN? It's there job to create controversy and views.. They're the tmz of the sports world and a complete joke..
They're still hurt over Kobe calling them out as idiots:lol

Oscar over Kobe? :lol good one..

See all the love Kobe is getting in every arena? Must burn you haters deep inside, everyone loves the mamba except for a few no lifers on here (dubeta and his imaginary friend alts) and those virgins at LESPN

The love and popularity of Kobe as a player has a lot to do with him playing for the Lakers franchise, and being part of great teams with teammates like Shaq and Gasol/Odom/Bynum/Artest.

If you are using casual fans' love for him as an argument as to why he is better than top 12, you know you have lost.

[DonDadda59]

All the Bean stans crying like bitches because their hero was named as one of the 12 absolute best basketball players ever in the History of the World, but say nothing when guys like Scottie Pippen and Kevin Durant are ranked higher than John Havlicek. Hondo should be on the same tier as Beans (12-20 range) based on his resume, but these fools at ESPN have him at 28... With Scottie Pippen at 21. :wtf:

John Havlicek
8 NBA championships
1 Finals MVP (1974)
13 all star selections
'62 all rookie team
4 All NBA 1st team selections
7 All NBA 2nd team selections
5 All NBA defensive 1st team selections
3 All NBA defensive 2nd team selections
21/6/5 Career averages
Peak of 29/9/8
13th All Time on the Scoring list

Hondo would have about 3 Finals MVPs if the award existed before '69. He is one of the best 2 way players ever, and his career played out a lot like Bean's did (Started out as second fiddle to an ATG center and then went on to be the man on his squad and led the team to championships as the #1).

Only Bron and Bird should be ranked above him as SFs.

But they put Kevin Durant, Scottie Pippen, and Dr. J (the only debatable one) ahead of him.

Absolute f*cking travesty.

But let's keep crying about Bean being ranked exactly where he should be ranked. :facepalm

[dhsilv]

The 30 point triple double he averaged for his first 7 seasons in the NBA should count for something. It's not like anyone else in the higher paced sixties was doing that. It's unique in all of NBA history. Wilt is the only other player who possibly did that for any season, but blocks weren't tallied.

There is also the fact that Oscar's MVP came in the midst of prime Wilt and Russell. No other perimeter player won an MVP in the 60s. In fact, no perimiter NBA player won again until Erving did in 1980.

Meanwhile, Nash wins 2 MVPs during Kobe's prime. That would be like Cousy winning two MVPs in the 60s.

Now, Kobe does have five more rings than Oscar. That's something. But Oscar didn't have the fortune of starting out his career with a top 10 super dominant big, like Magic and Kobe did. He had to wait till the tail end of his career.

It's okay if people think that Kobe's entire career puts him over Oscar. The top 10 can't have every worthy candidate. It's crowded, and some have to put into the 11-15 category.

But there is an argument. Any player in the 11-15 ranger has a case for being higher.

The triple double is like a 7 and 7 season today, maybe 7.5 and 7.5. It's impressive...but become people value double digits so much it gets inflated.

[dhsilv]

I'll give you Oscar is a weird case over Kobe. But nboody has even mentioned Malone who was far more dominate and peaks much higher than him. He's easily ahead of Kobe.