Kobe Bryant's All Time Winshare Problem

[indiefan23]

Thoughts on this piece? In response to all the hoopla over Kobe getting ranked 12th all time.

http://www.fullcourtpest.com/2016/02/kobe-bryants-all-time-win-share-problem.html

[JT123]

I’ve asked for someone, Kobe’s zealous fans, to reconcile why Kobe has never led one of the great teams, ones he’s given credit for in such discussions, in win shares. He’s being compared to the Brons, MJs, Birds and Magics here. So why not?


Kobe does not belong in the same sentence as the bolded.
#nottopten

[ISHGoat]

The real basketball fans have been saying this for years. Kobes game and career has not greatly contributed to the LAKERS success. He was never clearly the best player on his team, to show up big in games that mattered. Note: I'm not saying he was not the clear first option. He put up the highest scoring stats and played average to abc average defense when he wanted. But nonetheless his stacked front court teammates had just as much if not more positive impact on the game.

Basically that article confirms the sentiment that Kobe is overrated and a product of his circumstance and being drafted by the right franchise.

Of course, expect haters and other low IQ ish resident idiots to come in here and bring up one anomaly where WS shows a clearly worse player with a higher WS than a better player. It's just that. An anomaly.

[dubeta]

Winshares do not separate team from individual (research how its adjusted), therefore a REALLY bad stat to go off. Err, at best an incomplete one.



Okay? are you saying Kobe's never had good enough supporting casts to rack up winshares?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Winshares do not separate team from individual. Research how its adjusted and you'll understand why its horrible to go off. At best an incomplete stat.

That said Kobe's been overrated for years now. Obviously he is closer to top 10 than 12, based off career resume, but his prime and peak could be argued anywhere within the 10-20 range. With the Moses Malone, Jerry West, KG, Barkley and Dirk's of the world.

(sorry for the double post)

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Okay? are you saying Kobe's never had good enough supporting casts to rack up winshares?

I'm saying you want to isolate and measure an individuals impact, not convolute it with teammates.

[dubeta]

I'm saying you want to isolate and measure an individuals impact, not convolute it with teammates.

Ok then use PER, Kobe ranks #21st all time

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ok then use PER, Kobe ranks #18th all time

Yeah, I also use PER for efficient seasons. Pretty decent metric for what it does.

[Akhenaten]

What the phuck is a win share? More convoluted nerd crap?

[buddha]

What the phuck is a win share? More convoluted nerd crap?

pretty much. they are trying to say that a team consisting of

Mario Chalmers / Norris Cole
Dwyane Wade / Ray Allen
Shane Battier / James Jones
Chris Bosh / Rashard Lewis
Chris Andersen / Udonis Haslem

would win less games than

Derek Fisher / Jordon Farmar
Shannon Brown / Sasha Vujecik
Ron Artest / Luke Walton
Pau Gasol / Lamar Odom
Andrew Bynum / Josh Powell

[ImKobe]

the article you posted is stupid as hell

of course Bynum and Pau had the higher WS/48 in 08 than Kobe because they played with Kobe on the floor every game of that season while Kobe had to play without either of them when Bynum went down with the season-ending injury and it took about a month before they traded for Gasol..that means Kobe for the time being had to play with Kwame as his starting C... and WS/48 isn't the end of all stats anyways...Kobe still had the highest +/- on the team for the year despite the one month period of playing with a cast that resembled the 05-07 teams, you compare Pau's efficiency that yr in Memphis to once he got traded to LA...see how his FG% goes up by 9 and how his PER goes from all-star to superstar tier? Compare Kobe's efficiency with or without Pau/Bynum and it's basically the same, even better some previous years.

If people now care about WS that much, how come no one gives Kobe credit for leading the 01 Lakers in WS/48 in the Playoffs for the most dominant Playoff run in league history vs some of the best defensive teams ever? I don't see anyone bringing that up... I wonder why :kobe:

And another thing, Shaq, Gasol and Bynum are big men, their production on the offensive end comes from Kobe who sets up the offense and draws the attention for them to get easier baskets, which makes their efficiency numbers look that much better.

If Pau was such a winner by himself, why did he never win a single Playoff game in Memphis despite having better help around him than Kobe did during the same time period? Why wasn't Shaq able to win more titles on his own if he was so unstoppable?

Kobe is regarded so high because of who he was as a competitor and for all the work he put in for his teams to win 5 titles, something only Duncan's teams could match during his playing career (took the Spurs about 5 more seasons but whatever).

[Magic 32]

So all this clown can point to is game 3 and 7 from the 2010 NBA finals?


Kobe repeatedly making bad decisions driving into traffic for hero shots while Pau comes through and closes the finals for him.

In fact is was Ron Artest that came through, but that would ruin the weak narrative of this article.

Pau was 6 for 16 in game 7. He missed 6 of 13 FT's.


Any intelligent analysis of the 2010 finals would give Kobe the FMVP.

He was better than anyone in game 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6, and the Lakers would have won in 5 or 6 games if Pau and Bynum had played a lick of defense in Boston.

[ImKobe]

So all this clown can point to is game 3 and 7 from the 2010 NBA finals?



In fact is was Ron Artest that came through, but that would ruin the weak narrative of this article.

Pau was 6 for 16 in game 7. He missed 6 of 13 FT's.


Any intelligent analysis of the 2010 finals would give Kobe the FMVP.

He was better than anyone in game 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6, and the Lakers would have won in 5 or 6 games if Pau and Bynum had played a lick of defense in Boston.

Kobe obviously was the most valuable player on that roster in the Finals, Pau didn't close out shit, it was Kobe getting the ball to Ron who made the biggest shot of the series followed by Kobe and Sasha closing out the Finals at the FT line.

Kobe on the road in that series: 33/6/3, Pau: 15/9

in fact, Pau in the last 5 games of that series shot 42% with 68% from the line, averaging 16 points per game while Kobe averaged 30/9/3 on 40% shooting with 87% from the line

neither had an amazing series overall, but you can see who did more from a pure production standpoint, I don't care about efficiency unless he's carrying the same amount of load.

[plowking]

Kobe deserves to be anywhere from 9-12.

It isn't a big deal. Has there been hoopla over it? I must have missed it.

It isn't just winshares. Just about every metric has Kobe sitting between 10-20. From raw stats all the way up to advanced ones.

[Jacks3]

The arguments against Bryant are so terrible and hypocritical. It's like these idiots act like Bryant is the only all-timer that you can make these silly arguments for. Think about Bird. Overwhelming consensus top 5-10 player ever and his advanced stats certainly don't have him on that level. Hell, he doesn't even look better than Dirk going by those all-in-one stats, which just goes to show you how worthless they are. Think about Magic. Consensus top 5 player ever. He doesn't even look like the best player at his position with these numbers. CP3 is easily superior. It's so easy to take certain numbers and try to paint certain narratives with no real regard for context.

[plowking]

The arguments against Bryant are so terrible and hypocritical. It's like these idiots act like Bryant is the only all-timer that you can make these silly arguments for. Think about Bird. Overwhelming consensus top 5-10 player ever and his advanced stats certainly don't have him on that level. Hell, he doesn't even look better than Dirk going by those all-in-one stats, which just goes to show you how worthless they are. Think about Magic. Consensus top 5 player ever. He doesn't even look like the best player at his position with these numbers. CP3 is easily superior. It's so easy to take certain numbers and try to paint certain narratives with no real regard for context.

Bird has 3 MVP's... Magic does too...

Both have either led the league at some point in PER or winshares. This trend continues in the playoffs too. Not so much for Kobe.

The only time Kobe has ever led any type of advanced metric is WS in the playoffs in 2001 I think.

Not just that, but the raw stats don't really hold up to other all time greats. Well they do, but he is slightly off. Hence why 10th or just outside is a very reasonable and fair ranking.

[jstern]

So how does Kobe compared to his peers. Like Tracy McGrady, Iverson, Vince Carter, Wade, Etc?

[knicksman]

In the end, what players and coaches think is what matters most. They all respect kobe more than bran. As bird have said, if i want to win, ill take kobe over brAn.

[AirBonner]

In the end, what players and coaches think is what matters most. They all respect kobe more than bran. As bird have said, if i want to win, ill take kobe over brAn.
As good as Kobe is I feel like his poverty stricken hairline holds him back. I think with some growth we would see the surge of confidence again.

[knicksman]

As good as Kobe is I feel like his poverty stricken hairline holds him back. I think with some growth we would see the surge of confidence again.

You are so funny brah.

[pastis]

win shares career leader (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html)

Rank Player WS
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 273.41
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 247.26
3. Karl Malone* 234.63
4. Michael Jordan* 214.02
5. John Stockton* 207.70
6. Tim Duncan 204.79
7. Dirk Nowitzki 196.54
8. Kevin Garnett 191.50
9. Oscar Robertson* 189.21
10. LeBron James 187.33
11. Shaquille O'Neal 181.71
12. David Robinson* 178.67
13. Charles Barkley* 177.21
14. Reggie Miller* 174.40
15. Kobe Bryant 172.73
16. Moses Malone* 167.07
17. Bill Russell* 163.51
18. Hakeem Olajuwon* 162.77
19. Jerry West* 162.58
20. Magic Johnson* 155.79
21. Paul Pierce 149.64
22. Robert Parish* 147.00
23. Larry Bird* 145.83
24. Gary Payton* 145.53
25. Ray Allen 145.08

defensive win shares career leader (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html):

NBA
Rank Player DWS
1. Bill Russell* 133.64
2. Tim Duncan 105.20
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 94.49
4. Hakeem Olajuwon* 94.47
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 93.92
6. Karl Malone* 92.41
7. Kevin Garnett 91.52
8. Elvin Hayes* 83.65
9. Patrick Ewing* 81.42
10. David Robinson* 80.14
11. Jason Kidd 75.14
12. John Havlicek* 74.09
13. Robert Parish* 72.98
14. Ben Wallace 70.58
15. Dikembe Mutombo* 68.53
16. Scottie Pippen* 67.29
17. Shaquille O'Neal 66.36
18. John Stockton* 64.93
19. Michael Jordan* 64.13
20. Wes Unseld* 64.11
21. Charles Oakley 63.34
22. Paul Pierce 62.31
23. Nate Thurmond* 62.23
24. Buck Williams 61.79
25. Shawn Marion 61.27
26. Jack Sikma 60.69
27. Dwight Howard 59.66
28. Larry Bird* 59.03
29. LeBron James 57.14
30. Rasheed Wallace 57.12
31. Dirk Nowitzki 56.89
32. Dolph Schayes* 56.15
33. Clifford Robinson 55.89
34. Dave Cowens* 55.83
35. Marcus Camby 54.89
36. Dennis Rodman* 54.46
37. Moses Malone* 54.36
38. Charles Barkley* 53.91
39. Vlade Divac 52.90
40. Shawn Kemp 52.17
41. Paul Silas 51.74
42. Kobe Bryant 50.53

http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/2015/12/blogs/game-theory/20151205_woc333.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKX66I5UMAARHNs.png

[KOBE143]

Advance stats are for nerds.. GOAT list should be base on eye test only..

Base on eye test Kobe is easily in the top 5 all time and he's cute too like Curry..

[pastis]

Advance stats are for nerds.. GOAT list should be base on eye test only..

Base on eye test Kobe is easily in the top 5 all time and he's cute too like Curry..

eye test has def. to be considered. but this Dirk Nowitzki hate from navy and pointguard should just stop. its embarassing. they are hating on Dirk, but he is just a top15-17 player all time. eye test, success, stats.

i hate those two biatches for ever

[KOBE143]

you are right. but this Dirk Nowitzki hate from navy and pointguard should just stop. its embarassing. they are hating on Dirk, but he is just a top15-17 player all time. eye test, success, stats.

i hate those two biatches for ever

TBH Dirk is also kinda cute too..

[ImKobe]

eye test has def. to be considered. but this Dirk Nowitzki hate from navy and pointguard should just stop. its embarassing. they are hating on Dirk, but he is just a top15-17 player all time. eye test, success, stats.

i hate those two biatches for ever

Dirk is definitely in that range all-time with his consistency and the 2011 PO run.

[pastis]

Dirk is definitely in that range all-time with his consistency and the 2011 PO run.

exactly. you know, im not saying that dirk is better than KG. Both have advantages and desadvantages. For me, i would take the offensive power and variety of dirk offensive game over KG as a franchise player. and other would agree. other not. thats all. Both are in the rank 14-17 range for me.
but to consistently hate on dirk and question all of his succes and his game, despite the fact never watched it closely is just a fvcking agenda.

hate those two ghetto biatches

[Lebron23]

TBH Dirk is also kinda cute too..

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[pastis]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:


http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--_1vVdMdU--/18j5ieq6gnymbjpg.jpg


:lol :lol

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[Lebron23]

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--_1vVdMdU--/18j5ieq6gnymbjpg.jpg


:lol :lol

:bowdown: :bowdown:

:cheers:


I'm laughing because it sounded gay. Kobe143 is a gimmick account.

[pastis]

I'm laughing because it sounded gay. Kobe143 is a gimmick account.

like warriorfan

[Lebron23]

like warriorfan


He's either Mr. Jabbar, or Magic32.

[pastis]

He's either Mr. Jabbar, or Magic32.

magic32 is kennethgriffins second account

[ImKobe]

exactly. you know, im not saying that dirk is better than KG. Both have advantages and desadvantages. For me, i would take the offensive power and variety of dirk offensive game over KG. thats all. Both are in the rank 14-17 range for me.
but to consistently hate on dirk and question all of his succes and his game, despite the fact never watched it closely is just a fvcking agenda.

hate those two ghetto biatches

Dirk to me was the modern day Larry Bird, perhaps a taller version of Bird without the elite court vision. Never really had elite defenses to fall back on, just carried his teams in clutch situations and had the dominant PO run that KG never did. Regular season KG has the edge but look at how many times his teams lost in the 1st round, it took him 8 years to make his first CF appearance and after that he missed the POs 3 years in a row before being traded to Boston... As bad as Dirk's teams were at some times on the defensive end, they still managed to win 50 or more games and make the POs... KG has his one ring but Dirk's run outweighs anything KG did in his career.

Also, Dirk 25/10 vs KG 18/11 POs...Dirk had the better PO career.

[Magic 32]

magic32 is kennethgriffins second account

So i'm trashing myself?

[pastis]

Dirk to me was the modern day Larry Bird, perhaps a taller version of Bird without the elite court vision. Never really had elite defenses to fall back on, just carried his teams in clutch situations and had the dominant PO run that KG never did. Regular season KG has the edge but look at how many times his teams lost in the 1st round, it took him 8 years to make his first CF appearance and after that he missed the POs 3 years in a row before being traded to Boston... As bad as Dirk's teams were at some times on the defensive end, they still managed to win 50 or more games and make the POs... KG has his one ring but Dirk's run outweighs anything KG did in his career.

Also, Dirk 25/10 vs KG 18/11 POs...Dirk had the better PO career.

good post imkobe. would love to have more serious bball discussions here on ish.....

but trolling is funny too of course :rockon:

[ArbitraryWater]

Winshares do not separate team from individual. Research how its adjusted and you'll understand why its horrible to go off. At best an incomplete stat.

That said Kobe's been overrated for years now. Obviously he is closer to top 10 than 12, based off career resume, but his prime and peak could be argued anywhere within the 10-20 range. With the Moses Malone, Jerry West, KG, Barkley and Dirk's of the world.

(sorry for the double post)

so why do people act like his career is insanely long, when its basically 14 noteable seasons from 2000-2013?

[kshutts1]

win shares career leader (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html)

Rank Player WS
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 273.41
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 247.26
3. Karl Malone* 234.63
4. Michael Jordan* 214.02
5. John Stockton* 207.70
6. Tim Duncan 204.79
7. Dirk Nowitzki 196.54
8. Kevin Garnett 191.50
9. Oscar Robertson* 189.21
10. LeBron James 187.33
11. Shaquille O'Neal 181.71
12. David Robinson* 178.67
13. Charles Barkley* 177.21
14. Reggie Miller* 174.40
15. Kobe Bryant 172.73
16. Moses Malone* 167.07
17. Bill Russell* 163.51
18. Hakeem Olajuwon* 162.77
19. Jerry West* 162.58
20. Magic Johnson* 155.79
21. Paul Pierce 149.64
22. Robert Parish* 147.00
23. Larry Bird* 145.83
24. Gary Payton* 145.53



Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't winshares a counting stat? So a more accurate representation would be a WS/game?

BBR has WS/48, which is more similar to per game, but logically seems as though it would hurt those that were more able to play longer minutes effectively.

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong... and not like WS/gm make Kobe look any better (I have not done the work; just assuming) but what you posted seems akin to comparing career points rather than ppg.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

so why do people act like his career is insanely long, when its basically 14 noteable seasons from 2000-2013?

Kobe's career is long though. Look at the amount of All NBA selections both on offense and defense, MVP votes, Allstar games/awards, titles and records. Hell, dude has amassed tons of longevity feats. Makes sense why posters think his basketball career rivals few within the top 10.

[pastis]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't winshares a counting stat? So a more accurate representation would be a WS/game?

BBR has WS/48, which is more similar to per game, but logically seems as though it would hurt those that were more able to play longer minutes effectively.

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong... and not like WS/gm make Kobe look any better (I have not done the work; just assuming) but what you posted seems akin to comparing career points rather than ppg.

Win Share per 48 minutes:



NBA
Rank Player WS/48
1. Michael Jordan* .2505
2. David Robinson* .2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain* .2480
4. Chris Paul .2476
5. Neil Johnston* .2413
6. LeBron James .2396
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .2284
8. Magic Johnson* .2249
9. Charles Barkley* .2163
10. Jerry West* .2134
11. Bob Pettit* .2128
12. Kevin Durant .2122
13. Tim Duncan .2101
14. John Stockton* .2087
15. Shaquille O'Neal .2081
16. Oscar Robertson* .2069
17. Karl Malone* .2053
18. James Harden .2050
19. Dirk Nowitzki .2035
20. Larry Bird* .2032
21. Manu Ginobili .2016
22. Yao Ming .2001
23. Ed Macauley* .1964
24. Stephen Curry .1929
25. Bill Russell* .1927
26. Dolph Schayes* .1922
27. Adrian Dantley* .1887
28. Sidney Moncrief .1873
29. Kevin Love .1838
30. Paul Arizin* .1833
31. Sam Jones* .1824
32. Harry Gallatin* .1824
33. Kevin Garnett .1823
34. Dwyane Wade .1807
35. Kevin McHale* .1802
36. Bailey Howell* .1799
37. Bill Sharman* .1782
38. George Yardley* .1780
39. Moses Malone* .1779
40. Julius Erving* .1778
41. Clyde Lovellette* .1777
42. Kevin Johnson .1777
43. Dan Issel* .1769
44. Hakeem Olajuwon* .1767
45. Dwight Howard .1766
46. Walt Frazier* .1760
47. Reggie Miller* .1758
48. Chauncey Billups .1756
49. Bobby Jones .1752
50. Bob Lanier* .1751
51. Artis Gilmore* .1737
52. Clyde Drexler* .1734
53. Kobe Bryant .1726
54. Larry Nance .1713
55. Vern Mikkelsen* .1699
56. Pau Gasol .1696
57. Amar'e Stoudemire .1694

[kshutts1]

@pastis


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't winshares a counting stat? So a more accurate representation would be a WS/game?

BBR has WS/48, which is more similar to per game, but logically seems as though it would hurt those that were more able to play longer minutes effectively.

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong... and not like WS/gm make Kobe look any better (I have not done the work; just assuming) but what you posted seems akin to comparing career points rather than ppg.

[kshutts1]

win shares career leader (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html)

Rank Player WS
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 273.41 (ws/g = .175)
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 247.26 (.237)
3. Karl Malone* 234.63 (.159)
4. Michael Jordan* 214.02 (.2)
5. John Stockton* 207.70 (.138)
6. Tim Duncan 204.79 (.15)
7. Dirk Nowitzki 196.54 (.15)
8. Kevin Garnett 191.50 (ws/game = .131)
9. Oscar Robertson* 189.21 (.182)
10. LeBron James 187.33 (ws/game = .195 -- skewed due to not having yet declined)
11. Shaquille O'Neal 181.71 (ws/g = .151)
12. David Robinson* 178.67 (.181)
13. Charles Barkley* 177.21 (.165)
14. Reggie Miller* 174.40 (.126)
15. Kobe Bryant 172.73 (ws/g = .131)
16. Moses Malone* 167.07 (.123)
17. Bill Russell* 163.51 (.17)
18. Hakeem Olajuwon* 162.77 (.132)
19. Jerry West* 162.58 (.174)
20. Magic Johnson* 155.79 (.172)
21. Paul Pierce 149.64 (.115)
22. Robert Parish* 147.00 (.091)
23. Larry Bird* 145.83 (ws/g = .163)
24. Gary Payton* 145.53 (.109)
25. Ray Allen 145.08 (.112)

Well, it's official. On a per-game basis, Wilt gave you the best chance to win a game, ever. So I guess he's the GOAT?

And just for kicks...

Curry -- .14
Durant -- .167
Westbrook -- .112
Harden -- .14
Howard -- .13
Pau -- .123
Paul -- .186
Griffin -- .135
Melo -- .103
Wade -- .135
Leonard -- .125

[Optimus Prime]

"Win shares"...

https://media.giphy.com/media/l41lSU481Ud9az69i/giphy.gif

[lilandywiggins]

Ok then use PER, Kobe ranks #21st all time
:lol

[DonDraper]

"Kobe's Top 10"...

https://media.giphy.com/media/l41lSU481Ud9az69i/giphy.gif


Fixed

[Real Men Wear Green]

Kobe Bryant has five championships. Win share has a Kobe problem.

[DonDraper]

Kobe Bryant has five championships. Win share has a Kobe problem.

So does derek fisher

[Real Men Wear Green]

So does derek fisher
Good for Derek Fisher.

[pastis]

Good for Derek Fisher.

what about the other stats i posted (page 2)?


kobe bryant is an all time great player, but i think he is overrated, when people calling him top 8.
i would rank him 9-12. im ok with 9. But i think 11 wouldnt be that crazy

[Real Men Wear Green]

what about the other stats i posted (page 2)?


kobe bryant is an all time great player, but i think he is overrated, when people calling him top 8.
i would rank him 9-12. im happy with 9. But i think 11 would be also ok
The bolded, to me, is the only thing that matters here. Win shares, be they offensive or defensive, have a lot of factors that go into them (like teammates) that the creators of these stats can do their best to adjust their formulas for but will never be able to make fair to all players being judged. I'm not going to say that win share is completely irrelevant but it will never be nearly as important, when analyzing a great player like Bryant, than the fact that he was one of the two best players for 5 NBA Champions. That's why he's an all-time great. I don't get into what exact number he should be ranked, to me he's not up there with MJ or Jabbar but he's unquestionably the greatest wing of his generation and that means a great deal.

[riseagainst]

So does derek fisher


so you are saying Derek Fisher >>> Lebron.

Ok got it.

[andgar923]

Somewhere in the top 15 sounds good.

It's basically where I've ranked him for the most part.

Almost every stat (advanced and basic) show that Kobe is overrated, always has been.

The 'eye' test has also shown that he's a selfish, inconsistent, low IQ player that cares more about himself than winning (has always been the case). Doesn't mean he isn't a great talent, simply overrated.

He's not the most skilled player
He's arguably a top 5 skilled player

But he doesn't belong in the top 10, never has, specially with the rise of Bron the past seasons.

Kobe=overrated

[indiefan23]

The real basketball fans have been saying this for years. Kobes game and career has not greatly contributed to the LAKERS success. He was never clearly the best player on his team, to show up big in games that mattered. Note: I'm not saying he was not the clear first option. He put up the highest scoring stats and played average to abc average defense when he wanted. But nonetheless his stacked front court teammates had just as much if not more positive impact on the game.

Basically that article confirms the sentiment that Kobe is overrated and a product of his circumstance and being drafted by the right franchise.

Of course, expect haters and other low IQ ish resident idiots to come in here and bring up one anomaly where WS shows a clearly worse player with a higher WS than a better player. It's just that. An anomaly.

I don't know where the anomaly would be. Win shares are one of those stats that are 'really' difficult to falsely manufacture and pad. Unlike PPG a great player can just hog the ball on a bad team and look like a superstar on highlights, play that doesn't generate wins but only stats doesn't get recognized. If someone else on your team is actually contributing to winning more than you are you get exposed. Which is exactly what happened to Kobe.

[sportjames23]

So does derek fisher

This troll finally got banned. :oldlol:

[indiefan23]

I'm saying you want to isolate and measure an individuals impact, not convolute it with teammates.

It's a team game though. This isn't comparing Kobe's winshares to other player's win shares. It's comparing his win shares with other players on his own team and examining the gap between him in second place and comparing that to other all time greats. If the difference was insignificant sure, I think you would have a solid point. Or even if it was just an anomalous single year.

But that's not the case. It's every single year and the gap between his second or third place in winshares and say like, Jordan or Larry Bird is 5-10 win shares, which is an enormous gap. I think it more than makes up for any kind of statistical margin of error when you compare winshares say the 96 bulls to the 10 lakers. One team was being led to wins, nightly, by it's guard. The other by it's big, but everyone gives credit to it's guard.

Pau got ranked 56th all time by espn. But Kobe 12th? Garbage.

[indiefan23]

the article you posted is stupid as hell

of course Bynum and Pau had the higher WS/48 in 08 than Kobe because they played with Kobe on the floor every game of that season while Kobe had to play without either of them

Lol. If that excuse was valid Kobe would decidedly lead the team in win shares for the next x number of seasons. Unfortunately he did not, and sometimes placed third. Also losing your center isn't going to hurt your win shares. It has the exact opposite effect as you get even more touches. The Lakers only went 10 games with Bynum down and they won 5 of them with Kobe putting up lots of stats. It's likely his highest win share production of the season.



And another thing, Shaq, Gasol and Bynum are big men, their production on the offensive end comes from Kobe who sets up the offense and draws the attention for them

lol the stans. Are you serious? Kobe made the game easy for Shaq? Okay.

If Pau was such a winner by himself, why did he never win a single Playoff game in Memphis despite having better help around him than Kobe did during the same time period?

He had better help? His second best player was Shane Battier. Why didn't they win playoff games? Because it took 50 wins to make the playoffs in the west around that time, and that earned them dates with the championship Spurs, Suns and finalist Mavs.

Stans stans stans.

[indiefan23]

The bolded, to me, is the only thing that matters here. Win shares, be they offensive or defensive, have a lot of factors that go into them (like teammates) that the creators of these stats can do their best to adjust their formulas for but will never be able to make fair to all players being judged. I'm not going to say that win share is completely irrelevant but it will never be nearly as important, when analyzing a great player like Bryant, than the fact that he was one of the two best players for 5 NBA Champions. That's why he's an all-time great. I don't get into what exact number he should be ranked, to me he's not up there with MJ or Jabbar but he's unquestionably the greatest wing of his generation and that means a great deal.

It's just not a comparison of players win shares though. It's a comparison of who leads your team in them. Your teammate's play doesn't go into that. Jordan leading the bulls in WS by 10 and Kobe being in third is very significant.

Greatest wing of his generation? I think t-mac/Wade/Bron all have a better case tbh. Or maybe you dont' think they're that generation? Not sure. I think he's better than Paul Pierce. But I'm really not sure about Ray Allen. Those are valid Kobe conversations IMHO.

[indiefan23]

Win Share per 48 minutes:



NBA
Rank Player WS/48
1. Michael Jordan* .2505
2. David Robinson* .2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain* .2480
4. Chris Paul .2476
5. Neil Johnston* .2413
6. LeBron James .2396
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .2284
8. Magic Johnson* .2249
9. Charles Barkley* .2163
10. Jerry West* .2134
11. Bob Pettit* .2128
12. Kevin Durant .2122
13. Tim Duncan .2101
14. John Stockton* .2087
15. Shaquille O'Neal .2081
16. Oscar Robertson* .2069
17. Karl Malone* .2053
18. James Harden .2050
19. Dirk Nowitzki .2035
20. Larry Bird* .2032
21. Manu Ginobili .2016
22. Yao Ming .2001
23. Ed Macauley* .1964
24. Stephen Curry .1929
25. Bill Russell* .1927
26. Dolph Schayes* .1922
27. Adrian Dantley* .1887
28. Sidney Moncrief .1873
29. Kevin Love .1838
30. Paul Arizin* .1833
31. Sam Jones* .1824
32. Harry Gallatin* .1824
33. Kevin Garnett .1823
34. Dwyane Wade .1807
35. Kevin McHale* .1802
36. Bailey Howell* .1799
37. Bill Sharman* .1782
38. George Yardley* .1780
39. Moses Malone* .1779
40. Julius Erving* .1778
41. Clyde Lovellette* .1777
42. Kevin Johnson .1777
43. Dan Issel* .1769
44. Hakeem Olajuwon* .1767
45. Dwight Howard .1766
46. Walt Frazier* .1760
47. Reggie Miller* .1758
48. Chauncey Billups .1756
49. Bobby Jones .1752
50. Bob Lanier* .1751
51. Artis Gilmore* .1737
52. Clyde Drexler* .1734
53. Kobe Bryant .1726
54. Larry Nance .1713
55. Vern Mikkelsen* .1699
56. Pau Gasol .1696
57. Amar'e Stoudemire .1694

Win shares viewed this way really don't say much about the player because they're such a team thing. I'd say ranking them like this is kind of a junky way to view the stat. But compared in a single year to other players on the same team? Very meaningful.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's a team game though. This isn't comparing Kobe's winshares to other player's win shares. It's comparing his win shares with other players on his own team and examining the gap between him in second place and comparing that to other all time greats. If the difference was insignificant sure, I think you would have a solid point. Or even if it was just an anomalous single year.

If its a "team game" then why would Bryant have a winshare problem? Again, there are other metrics which do a better job of isolating an individuals impact.

Winshares combine player with team, thus an incomplete result.

[Real Men Wear Green]

It's just not a comparison of players win shares though. It's a comparison of who leads your team in them. Your teammate's play doesn't go into that. Jordan leading the bulls in WS by 10 and Kobe being in third is very significant.Do you think that Bryant was only the third-best player on any of the Laker championship teams?


Greatest wing of his generation? I think t-mac/Wade/Bron all have a better case tbh. Or maybe you dont' think they're that generation? Not sure. I think he's better than Paul Pierce. But I'm really not sure about Ray Allen. Those are valid Kobe conversations IMHO.
I don't regard James and Bryant as being of the same generation. McGrady and Pierce on any given night could and have outplayed Bryant head-to-head but he has the better resume by a wide margin. He has an MVP, they don't. He has two rings as his team's best player and three more as #2. Pierce has one as #2 (best scorer but KG was greater overall). T-Mac has none. T-Mac also completely loses in the area of longevity.

[Bandito]

the article you posted is stupid as hell

of course Bynum and Pau had the higher WS/48 in 08 than Kobe because they played with Kobe on the floor every game of that season while Kobe had to play without either of them when Bynum went down with the season-ending injury and it took about a month before they traded for Gasol..that means Kobe for the time being had to play with Kwame as his starting C... and WS/48 isn't the end of all stats anyways...Kobe still had the highest +/- on the team for the year despite the one month period of playing with a cast that resembled the 05-07 teams, you compare Pau's efficiency that yr in Memphis to once he got traded to LA...see how his FG% goes up by 9 and how his PER goes from all-star to superstar tier? Compare Kobe's efficiency with or without Pau/Bynum and it's basically the same, even better some previous years.

If people now care about WS that much, how come no one gives Kobe credit for leading the 01 Lakers in WS/48 in the Playoffs for the most dominant Playoff run in league history vs some of the best defensive teams ever? I don't see anyone bringing that up... I wonder why :kobe:

And another thing, Shaq, Gasol and Bynum are big men, their production on the offensive end comes from Kobe who sets up the offense and draws the attention for them to get easier baskets, which makes their efficiency numbers look that much better.

If Pau was such a winner by himself, why did he never win a single Playoff game in Memphis despite having better help around him than Kobe did during the same time period? Why wasn't Shaq able to win more titles on his own if he was so unstoppable?

Kobe is regarded so high because of who he was as a competitor and for all the work he put in for his teams to win 5 titles, something only Duncan's teams could match during his playing career (took the Spurs about 5 more seasons but whatever).

This thread ended up here and people kept trolling.:lol
So Ish...

[Bandito]

Kobe deserves to be anywhere from 9-12.

It isn't a big deal. Has there been hoopla over it? I must have missed it.

It isn't just winshares. Just about every metric has Kobe sitting between 10-20. From raw stats all the way up to advanced ones.
Agree with this.

[Pointguard]

Dirk to me was the modern day Larry Bird, perhaps a taller version of Bird without the elite court vision. Never really had elite defenses to fall back on, just carried his teams in clutch situations and had the dominant PO run that KG never did. Regular season KG has the edge but look at how many times his teams lost in the 1st round, it took him 8 years to make his first CF appearance and after that he missed the POs 3 years in a row before being traded to Boston... As bad as Dirk's teams were at some times on the defensive end, they still managed to win 50 or more games and make the POs... KG has his one ring but Dirk's run outweighs anything KG did in his career.

Also, Dirk 25/10 vs KG 18/11 POs...Dirk had the better PO career.
Who in this era had a better run than Dirk did? Definitely not Kobe. If KG is healthy KG definitely takes one of Kobe's rings without doubt. Dirk's game was very different from Bird's game. But Dirk beats out Kobe if people are going advanced metrics. The thing you are overlooking with KG is that teams flatout weren't getting layups on them. One of the most amazing defensive feats in the game ever.

Kobe is 8 thru 12 in general to me.

[pastis]

Who in this era had a better run than Dirk did? Definitely not Kobe. If KG is healthy KG definitely takes one of Kobe's rings without doubt. Dirk's game was very different from Bird's game. But Dirk beats out Kobe if people are going advanced metrics. The thing you are overlooking with KG is that teams flatout weren't getting layups on them. One of the most amazing defensive feats in the game ever.

Kobe is 8 thru 12 in general to me.

if Dirk would have had Kobes "bad" raw and advanced stats you would consistently bring them up to emphasize your arguments against Dirk. thats for sure. Last thread you wrote that you dont understand this whole "dirk in the top 20" thing. and this is just an incredible ignorance.

and no, i dont wanna retalk everything. und nun sei leise du kleiner nuttenbengel

[Hoopz2332]

:lol

[IGOTGAME]

looking at the stats, the title could easily be: Michael Jordan's All Time Winshare Problem. Kareem has beat in both offensive and defensive win shares

[Mr Feeny]

looking at the stats, the title could easily be: Michael Jordan's All Time Winshare Problem. Kareem has beat in both offensive and defensive win shares

He played longer. Jordan is 1st all time in ws/48. That's what's key. And Kobe is abysmal when you look at those metrics for him.

Kobe is 55th all time in ws/48 for reference. Yes, you're reading that correctly folks. No error there. Fifty fifth.

[IGOTGAME]

He played longer. Jordan is 1st all time in ws/48. That's what's key. And Kobe is abysmal when you look at those metrics for him.

Kobe is 55th all time in ws/48 for reference. Yes, you're reading that correctly folks. No error there. Fifty fifth.


That's what I get for not looking into the posted stats. Guess Kobe isn't too 50.

[Mr Feeny]

That's what I get for not looking into the posted stats. Guess Kobe isn't too 50.

You look at more than 1 statistical measure to get a better idea of where someone belongs.
Kobe is only 23rd in PER as well.
Hrs 12th in scoring average.
12th in playoff scoring average.

12-15th best all time is probably where he belongs if we help him out by putting weight into Shaq's rings.