NBA Pace and Scoring is at its Highest Since '92-'93

[DonDadda59]

How inflated are modern day players' stats? :confusedshrug:

Discuss.

[LoneyROY7]

As inflated as MJ's prime numbers I guess.

[lilandywiggins]

Thank you Based Curry.

[DonDadda59]

As inflated as MJ's prime numbers I guess.

'16 Warriors Pace: 99.6
'96 Bulls Pace: 91.1

*Highest Pace Jordan's Bulls played was 99.4 (His rookie season), during the first 3-peat the Bulls played in the 92-95 range, during the second 3-peat it was 89-91. Slow as molasses :eek: *

How much more gaudy would the GOAT's stats have been if he was getting 100 possessions per game to work with?

I'd assume pretty damn GAUDY. :bowdown:

[warriorfan]

Damn this thread made me go check out Steph Curry's per 100 possession stats compared to Michael Jordan...

Stacks up well. Looks pretty even with Jordan's 3 peating years.

[LoneyROY7]

Damn this thread made me go check out Steph Curry's per 100 possession stats compared to Michael Jordan...

Stacks up well. Looks pretty even with Jordan's 3 peating years.

Damn, beat me to it.

Impressive.

[DonDadda59]

Damn this thread made me go check out Steph Curry's per 100 possession stats compared to Michael Jordan...

Stacks up well. Looks pretty even with Jordan's 3 peating years.

Kind of a useless stat IMO.

In reality, Curry with 100 possessions on the Warriors = 30 PPG, Jordan with 95-96 possessions on the Bulls= 35-37 PPG (while being DPOY).

Unreal.

Scary.

Terrifying.

[warriorfan]

Kind of a useless stat IMO.

In reality, Curry with 100 possessions on the Warriors = 30 PPG, Jordan with 95-96 possessions on the Bulls= 35-37 PPG (while being DPOY).

Unreal.

Scary.

Terrifying.

How many 4th quarters did Jordan sit out though?

Curry already has 14.

[lilandywiggins]

AMC keeps winning.

[DonDadda59]

How many 4th quarters did Jordan sit out though?

Curry already has 14.

Don't know the exact #, but I know he sat out a good number in '96 seeing as how the Bulls had a +12.3 points differential (Warriors currently are at +12.6).

91.1 Pace- 30.4 PPG (50% FG) at age 33. :bowdown:

[LoneyROY7]

AMC theatres.

Popcorn's on the house.

https://media.giphy.com/media/vjwACwDxB0hZ6/giphy.gif

[warriorfan]

Don't know the exact #, but I know he sat out a good number in '96 seeing as how the Bulls had a +12.3 points differential (Warriors currently are at +12.6).

91.1 Pace- 30.4 PPG (50% FG) at age 33. :bowdown:

If my math is correct, Jordan averaged 40 minutes a game and if quarters are 12 minutes long, he couldn't of sat out many 4ths at all.

[Doctor K]

If my math is correct, Jordan averaged 40 minutes a game and if quarters are 12 minutes long, he couldn't of sat out many 4ths at all.

but what does that have to with pace or per possession stats?

[DonDadda59]

If my math is correct, Jordan averaged 40 minutes a game and if quarters are 12 minutes long, he couldn't of sat out many 4ths at all.

37.7 MPG while playing at a 91.1 Pace.

Chef Curry was only putting up 23 PPG playing 38 MPG on a 94.5 Pace a few seasons ago. :confusedshrug:

Stats getting inflated as shit.

[warriorfan]

but what does that have to with pace or per possession stats?

Well Dada didn't want to use per possession stats.

He is posting averages and the pace, but it's not accounting for minutes per game played.

Jordan played at a slightly slower pace, but he also played a lot more minutes than Steph Curry. They counter act each other and Jordan still wound up with more possessions per game than Steph Curry, even while playing at a slower pace.


37.7 MPG while playing at a 91.1 Pace.

Chef Curry was only putting up 23 PPG playing 38 MPG on a 94.5 Pace a few seasons ago. :confusedshrug:

Stats getting inflated as shit.

12-13 was well before Curry hit his prime.

We talking bout the present Curry.

[DonDadda59]

Well Dada didn't want to use per possession stats.

He is posting averages and the pace, but it's not accounting for minutes per game played.

Jordan played at a slightly slower pace, but he also played a lot more minutes than Steph Curry. They counter act each other and Jordan still wound up with more possessions per game than Steph Curry, even while playing at a slower pace.

By '98 the Bulls were playing at a pace of 89. That's over 10 less possessions per game.

Molasses vs Showtime.

[warriorfan]

By '98 the Bulls were playing at a pace of 89. That's over 10 less possessions per game.

Molasses vs Showtime.

By 1998 Jordan was scoring 1 less point while playing 5 more minutes than Steph Curry.

[DonDadda59]

By 1998 Jordan was scoring 1 less point while playing 4 more minutes than Steph Curry.

He was also 35 and carrying an old shell of a team with his Klay being out half the season following back surgery.

Jordan at the same age as Curry was getting 32-34 PPG on teams that were playing at a 95-96 pace.

How GOAT is our God? :bowdown:

[warriorfan]

He was also 35 and carrying an old shell of a team with his Klay being out half the season following back surgery.

Jordan at the same age as Curry was getting 32-34 PPG on teams that were playing at a 95-96 pace.

How GOAT is our God? :bowdown:

Jordan was still great even in advanced age, Curry will be as well.

When Jordan was the same age as Curry he was scoring 1 more point per game while playing 3 more minutes per game, Jordan also has 1 less assist per game.

Jordan had a true shooting percentage of 61%, Curry's is 68%...

Jordan is the GOAT, but Curry is now following in his footsteps.

[DonDadda59]

Jordan was still great even in advanced age, Curry will be as well.

When Jordan was the same age as Curry he was scoring 1 more point per game while playing 3 more minutes per game, Jordan also has 1 less assist per game.

Jordan had a true shooting percentage of 61%, Curry's is 68%...

Jordan is the GOAT, but Curry is now following in his footsteps.

Tim will tell. Could be Top 10 material beginning, could be T-Mac with a much better team.

We shall see. :cheers:

[sd3035]

Curry > Ordan

[DonDraper]

If my math is correct, adjust for pace and Curry still has 0 FMVP votes




Damn, who would have known

[Im Still Ballin]

I got a ho named real da real

she got a buddy named sp12

now you know the deal
[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]Rule Enforced Spacing
Rule Enforced Spacing relates to the offensive floor spacing teams achieved during the Illegal Defense period (1981-2001)

1981 - Illegal Defense Guidelines put in place to increase scoring and open up the paint
Passage from Bill Simmons' (Globally known NBA analyst, well respected publically) book


Effect:
1979 league average offensive rating: 103.8

1981-82
[COLOR="Blue"]

[Im Still Ballin]

Shooting Encouraged Spacing
Shooting Encouraged Spacing refers to the offensive floor spreading, occurring after Illegal Defense was removed in 2001. "Encouraged" implies that it is not mandatory, or enforced, to space the floor. Whereas with Rule Enforced Spacing, failure to spread the court with accordance to the Illegal Defense Guidelines, results in a technical and eventual free throws.

2001 - Removal of Illegal Defense Guidelines
Purpose: To encourage ball movement and team play through giving defenses more freedom to defend, particularly help defense from the weak side, which was extremely restricted from 1981-2001 with the Illegal defense guideline in place

(Up coming quotes are from some of the most renowned and well respected NBA analysts and writers on the Earth today. Earning the big bucks because they are the best at what they do... Including ESPN's Henry Abbott, and Grantland's Zach Lowe)

Quote:
“Getting to the hole is getting harder and harder,” says Chicago’s Carlos Boozer

Quote:
“A lot of the defensive strategies you see now are a natural evolution from rule changes,” says Houston GM Daryl Morey, in reference to the league’s decision a decade ago to abandon illegal defense rules and essentially allow zone defenses. “First the defense evolved by overloading the strong side, and now the offenses are evolving to beat that.”

Quote:
“The league has gotten so different today,” (Jim) Boylan says. “You just have to move the ball from one side to the other against the really good defensive teams.”

Isolation and Post up plays are much easier to defend now compared to the Illegal Defense era. Offenses have had to adjust to the modern, strong side flooding defenses, which require full court use, putting a premium on shooting ability enforced spacing (Not rule enforced spacing), passing and movement.

Quote:
The league overall understands this, though some coaching staffs have been quicker than others in adjusting their systems. The percentage of offensive possessions that end with isolation plays and post-up shots has declined every season for the last five years, per Synergy Sports. In 2008-09, the year after the Celtics used a Thibodeau-designed system to create one of the stingiest defenses ever, 27 of the league’s 30 teams still finished at least 9 percent of their offensive possessions via an isolation play, according to Synergy Sports. The Magic, at 7.4 percent, were the least isolation-prone team in the league that season.3 This season, 15 teams — half the league — are below that 9 percent isolation mark, and a whopping 11 have lower isolation shares than Milwaukee’s league-low number from 2008-09. The drop in post-ups has been similar, and the numbers would seem to indicate an increase in ball movement.

Conversely, this has had an effect on the specifics of personnel scoring, not necessarily team scoring output. Elite scorer numbers are down across the board, and this is in direct effect due to advanced defenses thanks to the removal of Illegal defense. With post ups and isolation plays being able to be defended much better, more ball movement and clever schemes are required for these elite scorers to hit the box score.

Quote:
Thorpe explains it best in the video, but the gist is this: In recent years more and more NBA coaches have signed up for the defensive philosophy, popularized by Tom Thibodeau since 2007-08, of "flooding ball-side box."

This is not the same as double-teaming, but it has some similarities. When the ball is on one side of the court, watch for this: Very often an extra defender sneaks over to join the action, bringing a crowd of defenders closer to the ball. It's something that became legal when the NBA began allowing zone defenses in 2001, but it took until 2008 for coaches to really figure out how to take best advantage.

That's when the big-time gunners started to disappear.

Flooding the side of the court with the ball makes everything tougher for that star scorer, starting when he makes the catch and assesses options. Driving lanes are tighter or closed off entirely. More defenders have more ability to get hands in faces. It's difficult to reach favored spots on the court, and to operate once there.

Quote:
That's all happening. Stars putting up big numbers are incredibly hard to find this season compared to five years ago, but overall team scoring is down only about two points per game -- the non-star scorers must be picking up a little slack.

And as for assists, in 1985-86, the 10 players who played the longest minutes in the season's first 36 games combined for 1,308 assists. Five years ago, that number was 1,482. This year it's all the way up to 1,768.

David Thorpe
Quote:
Now, when you beat that first line of defense, you’ve got four dudes very often sitting, waiting for you on ball-side …You might have three, four, even five defenders on that ball-side box. That wasn’t the case when Jordan played … You couldn’t go anywhere near a ball-side box back then. There were great teams like Chuck Daly’s Pistons and Pat Riley’s Lakers that devised “zone,” so to speak, to kind of flood the ball more, but it was nothing, Henry [Abbott of ESPN], like it is today. The teeth of the defense today is much sharper, and there’s many more teeth then there was back when Jordan played,

George Karl on how the rule changes have made post ups inefficient
Quote:
“The game is getting out of balance,” says George Karl, now coaching perhaps the league’s preeminent post-up brute. “But until we figure out a way to make the post-up more efficient, we’re not going back. You just can’t win throwing the ball into the post 60 times per game.”

Quote:
Referees let point guards flit around unfettered, but the paint remains a war zone where brutality can trump skill. Legalized zone frees help defenders to sandwich dangerous post-up threats. “The reason the post-up doesn't work anymore is that teams just front now,” Karl says. Help defenders can drift from their assignments to prevent a lob pass over that front, forcing the defense to whip the ball elsewhere.



Dwight post up to face up drive to the hoop from the low post, while Steve Nash, Kobe, MWP, and Antwan Jamison spread the court with their 3 point shooting. Jameer sags off MWP and attempts to swipe the ball from Dwight. This would be an illegal defense in the 90's because it would be considered a double, but it was not a hard double, very much slow and awarely trying to zone and cover space. Dwight finishes strong with the nifty left hook.


Blake works in the low post. The strong side and rim is spaced due to having elite 3pt shooters Chris Paul and JJ Reddick at the top of the key, and Matt Barnes in the weakside corner 3. Deandre is baseline, creating a threat with his lob ability, so his defender has to keep contact and respect his offensive threat. This allows Blake to work his way in the post and get a great spin right hand hook shot. Also, noticed how Curry is jumping back and forth, trying to softly double and annoy Blake while being ready for pass out to Paul at the 3 line. This would be considered a clear illegal defense in the Rule Enforced Spacing era.


Lebron ISO drives to the rim for the AND1 while he has the floor spaced with Mozgov at the top, ready for an 18 footer which he can hit well, Delly and Shump at the 3, spacing the weakside, and Thompson spacing weakside baseline with his Lob ability, similar to Deandre Jordan.

A different part of town

A different kind of freak

[plowking]

You know Dadda really cares about the security of his idol's reputation and place in history when he is resorting to this. :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

You know Dadda really cares about the security of his idol's reputation and place in history when he is resorting to this. :oldlol:

What on Earth would I be worried about and what am I 'resorting to' exactly?

Are you saying that scoring and pace isn't at its highest point since 1993? :confusedshrug:

[Im Still Ballin]

Defenses are so much better today

[DonDadda59]

Defenses are so much better today

Players aren't allowed to play any sort of defense on the perimeter. It's bombs away for wings. You can get off any shot at any time with 0 resistance. Literally none. Dudes are chucking 3s like it's the end of the earth for a reason- there's nothing defenses can do to stop it.

If you're a wing... What a time to be alive.

First era in NBA History where pace, scoring went UP following the rule changes of the mid 00s.

What a time indeed. :applause:

[plowking]

What on Earth would I be worried about and what am I 'resorting to' exactly?

Are you saying that scoring and pace isn't at its highest point since 1993? :confusedshrug:

Literally someone called out MJ, and your first instinct was to compare it to Curry. :oldlol:

Your whole per 100 possession thing showed ignorance as well. Not just because you called MJ DPOY material then (:oldlol: ), but also because you somehow extrapolated his stats out to more than Curry's while forgetting that the stats Curry is putting up isn't even done in 36mpg. :oldlol:

Don't worry bro. You still have that 90's defense myth to hold onto. You know the one where you could dual wield weapons, stab and shoot players as they drive to the rim and it wasn't a foul? Of course you do. ;)

[plowking]

Players aren't allowed to play any sort of defense on the perimeter. It's bombs away for wings. You can get off any shot at any time with 0 resistance. Literally none. Dudes are chucking 3s like it's the end of the earth for a reason- there's nothing defenses can do to stop it.

If you're a wing... What a time to be alive.

First era in NBA History where pace, scoring went UP following the rule changes of the mid 00s.

What a time indeed. :applause:

Players that have played in both eras have said it is harder to score in the current game.

[DonDadda59]

Literally someone called out MJ, and your first instinct was to compare it to Curry. :oldlol:

Which was retarded seeing as how the Bulls always played at some of the slowest paces in the NBA. :lol


Your whole per 100 possession thing showed ignorance as well. Not just because you called MJ DPOY material then (:oldlol: ), but also because you somehow extrapolated his stats out to more than Curry's while forgetting that the stats Curry is putting up isn't even done in 36mpg. :oldlol:

You callin me stupid? :biggums:


Don't worry bro. You still have that 90's defense myth to hold onto. You know the one where you could dual wield weapons, stab and shoot players as they drive to the rim and it wasn't a foul? Of course you do. ;)

Now you're just acting like a bitch on her period.

Bad form.

[DonDadda59]

Players that have played in both eras have said it is harder to score in the current game.

Name those nigguhs.

[Im Still Ballin]

Players aren't allowed to play any sort of defense on the perimeter. It's bombs away for wings. You can get off any shot at any time with 0 resistance. Literally none. Dudes are chucking 3s like it's the end of the earth for a reason- there's nothing defenses can do to stop it.

If you're a wing... What a time to be alive.

First era in NBA History where pace, scoring went UP following the rule changes of the mid 00s.

What a time indeed. :applause:
I guess you missed the 70's to 80's transitional period where they brought in Illegal to open up the paint, increase scoring also while outlawing handchecking in 1979. This was successful.

[DonDadda59]

I guess you missed the 70's to 80's transitional period where they brought in Illegal to open up the paint, increase scoring also while outlawing handchecking in 1979. This was successful.

Show me a 10 year period from anywhere in NBA History, you can even go back as far as the 50s, where the scoring and pace INCREASED (ala the post mid 00 rule changes era).

I'll wait.

[plowking]

Name those nigguhs.

Garnett, McGrady and Duncan have spoken on it.


And there just isn't a time where pace and defensive ratings match up to be as low as now outside the 70's I think.

When defensive ratings were similar in Jordan's time, pace was up, when pace was similar defensive ratings were worse, etc.

Supposedly a better time for wings, but you can't explain why all the high scoring/high efficiency wings played in the 80's and early 90's.

[Im Still Ballin]

Show me a 10 year period from anywhere in NBA History, you can even go back as far as the 50s, where the scoring and pace INCREASED (ala the post mid 00 rule changes era).

I'll wait.
Cherrypicker detected

You and I both know of the great late 2000's/early 10's defensive period. Global scoring is a HOAX. It's a natural ebb and flow of the NBA universe.

[DonDadda59]

Garnett, McGrady and Duncan have spoken on it.

So 2 bigs and a guy who was finished as a player by the time the rule changes happened? :roll:

What did Beans and AI have to say? :confusedshrug:



And there just isn't a time where pace and defensive ratings match up to be as low as now outside the 70's I think.

The highest offensive ratings and eFG% have come post 2009, broseph. The only time when it was similar was during the shortened 3-pt line rule change era, brosinski.


When defensive ratings were similar in Jordan's time, pace was up, when pace was similar defensive ratings were worse, etc.

Youse a goddamn fool.


Supposedly a better time for wings, but you can't explain why all the high scoring/high efficiency wings played in the 80's and early 90's.

Pace bruh, just like now. Less 3s too since it was much harder to get a shot off on the perimeter.

When the 90s came along and the game became far more physical, the pace plummeted, etc... Where were those high scoring wings, bruh?

Rule changes happen, all of a sudden all the wings who were drafted in the 90s had their career scoring highs.

Hell of a coincidence. :applause:


Cherrypicker detected

I said all of NBA History, this snitch calls me a cherry picker. :yaohappy:

[La Frescobaldi]

news flash jordan bulls always liked to play at a snail's pace.
details at 11:00.


who knew?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The '92 Bulls vs this years Warriors. God damn what a fun matchup that would be. :bowdown:

The GOAT versus Baby Faced Assassin :rockon:

[DonDadda59]

news flash jordan bulls always liked to play at a snail's pace.
details at 11:00.


who knew?

Apparently not the posters at Insidehoops. :lol

[tmacattack33]

but what does that have to with pace or per possession stats?

:biggums:

A lot. Curry has sat out 14 fourth quarters. Which means he'd prob be averaging 33 ppg if he played in those quarters.

33 ppg on 70 TS% or whatever it is now...that sh*ts on what MJ was able to do.

[Im Still Ballin]

Manmade scoring change is 2nd to natural scoring change. The pace and scoring of the game is always illicit to change. It always does. Gameplans change. Tactics evolve. 90's basketball would get blown out by todays ball. It's natural evolution. Leave the weak behind.

[sportjames23]

'16 Warriors Pace: 99.6
'96 Bulls Pace: 91.1

*Highest Pace Jordan's Bulls played was 99.4 (His rookie season), during the first 3-peat the Bulls played in the 92-95 range, during the second 3-peat it was 89-91. Slow as molasses :eek: *

How much more gaudy would the GOAT's stats have been if he was getting 100 possessions per game to work with?

I'd assume pretty damn GAUDY. :bowdown:


The Don bringing facts. :cheers:

[DonDraper]

The only pace that matters is the pace of Jordan's fathers heart stopping due to his son's gambling problems.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Defenses are so much better today

Yeah man, soooo much better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQRD8WArdLM#t=2m09s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQRD8WArdLM#t=2m37s

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Anyone ON THIS FORUM could make those plays. Give me a break. The lane is wide open today, there are ZERO shotblocking big men inside, and perimeter defenders are hamstrung by no-contact rules.

[DonDadda59]

Manmade scoring change is 2nd to natural scoring change. The pace and scoring of the game is always illicit to change. It always does.

And yet from the inception of the league until about 2006, the trend had always been a lowering of scoring, pace, etc... And then the league explicitly changed the rules to reverse this trend, and that's exactly what happened.

Sup with that, Teddy Broosevelt? :confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

The Don bringing facts. :cheers:

That's all I deal in. The cold, hard facts.


The only pace that matters is the pace of Jordan's fathers heart stopping due to his son's gambling problems.

There's too many fake dons running around this place nowadays. Something has to be done about this.

[Wade's Rings]

:biggums:

A lot. Curry has sat out 14 fourth quarters. Which means he'd prob be averaging 33 ppg if he played in those quarters.

33 ppg on 70 TS% or whatever it is now...that sh*ts on what MJ was able to do.

Curry plays at a much faster pace, so he gets more Possessions per minute anyway. Wouldn't the minutes difference be useless at that point?

[plowking]

The highest offensive ratings and eFG% have come post 2009, broseph. The only time when it was similar was during the shortened 3-pt line rule change era, brosinski.




You didn't really answer anything properly aside from this one, and even then, what does this answer have to do with what I said?

They are doing it against better defenses. So players are just better offensively. :oldlol:

[plowking]

Yeah man, soooo much better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQRD8WArdLM#t=2m09s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQRD8WArdLM#t=2m37s

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Anyone ON THIS FORUM could make those plays. Give me a break. The lane is wide open today, there are ZERO shotblocking big men inside, and perimeter defenders are hamstrung by no-contact rules.

Funny how you never once responded to the video I posted in the other thread with Reggie Miller. :oldlol:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12097563&postcount=23

Please, just respond to this and tell me how you came up with some arbitrary bullshit numbers where Curry would be averaging Reggie Miller numbers and how his efficiency would drop in the 90's. Go and read that whole thread again and see how far off base you are. :oldlol:

[plowking]

That's all I deal in. The cold, hard facts.





You really don't though. Any time defenses have factually been proven to be better now, you continually revert back to narrative and your nostalgia to tell us how defenses were better than before.

[plowking]

More quotes above from players who don't play today, and simply state how much better it was in their time. Yet players who played in both are split, or generally more in favour of this current era being more difficult... Interesting isn't it?

Then acting as if a script of analysts talking about defensive mistakes make a difference as if they didn't happen back in the day. The 3 or 4 second layup was never more common than in the 80's and early 90's.

[DonDadda59]

Brojangles, on what planet are the defensive ratings post rule changes better than they were from the late 90s-early 00s? :lol

If you're gonna bullshit, don't do it with info people can call bullshit on.

But melt on brother. Melt on.

[Da_Realist]

Defenses are so much better today

Isiah Thomas disagrees.

In an article dated Nov 5, 2015...

So are we witnessing the golden era of the point guard?

Legendary Detroit Pistons floor general Isiah Thomas doesn’t think so. Matter of fact, Zeke feels that on the defensive side of the ball, today’s crop of points, um, stinks.

“The on-ball point guard defense in the league is atrocious,” Isiah said during an epic rant on Tuesday night’s NBA Game Time on NBA TV. “Last year, I thought it was the worst perimeter defense I’d ever seen [point] guards play. These first four to five games [this season], I’m going to say it’s gotten even worse.”

A thoughtful basketball-ologist, Thomas isn’t one to spew out an opinion without backing it up with some solid knowhow. “Everyone takes [their man] right to the screen, then they leave the seven-footer [or] the six-ten guy to guard a six-one guy,” he explained, “and they don’t even try to get back to help.” He capped off the tirade with a classic: “You get more resistance in high school, in college, and in the park than you do in the NBA at the point guard position right now.”

https://www.fanduel.com/insider/2015...s-the-defense/

In an article dated Dec 24, 2015...

“Having said that, it’s not going to be a game plan of X’s and O’s that beats them. You can’t even begin to implement a game plan against them unless you have convinced your guys to take on the challenge of staying in front of their man. It’s going to be a mind-set, pros against pros, five against five, deciding that you have to stop your man, guard your man, 94 feet, 48 minutes. If Curry comes down and hits a 3 from 29 feet with a hand in his face, there’s nothing you can do about that.

“Listen, we’ve had great offensive players before in this league. I played against two of the best — Michael Jordan and Kareem. Michael would get 30 and 40 against us, but I don’t remember him getting them without a hand in his face.

“The rules favor the offense now; that’s the way it is in all sports. That’s what people want to see. How good would Larry Bird shoot with the way defense is played now, especially on the perimeter?"

“I played on some of the best defensive teams ever, my whole life — high school, college, pros — when you could actually get close to the ball. Now, with the rules being what they are, you have too many people can’t play defense, make no attempt. Right now perimeter defense in the N.B.A. is kind of the worst I’ve ever seen, an absolute joke.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/25/sp...-day.html?_r=0

==============================


Commentary from the OKC GSW game, Feb 6, 2015


Mark Jackson (returning from a commercial break): You gotta do a better job being disciplined defensively if you're OKC and it starts with Westbrook getting back and being that first line of defense against Curry.


(Next GSW possession -- after Thompson blows by Durant)

Mike Breen: Thompson to the basket. Nice move from Thompson.

Jeff Van Gundy: But Mike, not to harp on it, but it starts with transition, like Mark just said, but then it's individual defense. You've gotta sit down in a stance and contain the ball. Too many blow by's leading directly to layups.

(Next GSW possession -- Klay blows by Morrow)

MB: Thompson...stops...and the foul. Another easy bucket.

JVG: ...and this isn't a great Steph Curry move, or a great Klay Thompson move. It's just a catch and straight line drive. Now if you look at the stance initially... the stance on the ball is not good enough. Morrow has his feet totally open which allows that direct line drive. And Stephen Adams, their only shotblocker is guarding the shooter in the corner, he gives an arm help... I AM gonna harp on it. Get in the stance and guard your man!

Mark: I was getting ready to go at you because you're celebrating the game (as Durant draws the contact). That's the nicest you've been watching awful defense that I've seen in a long time.

JVG: (on replay) Look at the stance. The stance has to be more square. This allows a guy to go straight to the rim. Adams with an arm help. And that is just... that's just too easy.

Mark: And it seems like you're picking on Morrow but it's not just him. It's been a steady diet of that type of defense throughout this first half for OKC.

(A couple of plays later)

MB: Thompson, blocked by Durant. And a foul by Thompson.

JVG: Sit in a stance and guard your man! Sometimes it has nothing to do with the scheme and everything to do with individual pride. Down, long arm of the law. Terrific block by Durant. He likes it.

Mark: And that's one you show at halftime. So we can do it. We can defend Curry. We can defend Thompson. When we want. But the question is: Do we want to do it?

[plowking]

Brojangles, on what planet are the defensive ratings post rule changes better than they were from the late 90s-early 00s? :lol

If you're gonna bullshit, don't do it with info people can call bullshit on.

But melt on brother. Melt on.

Who is talking about early 00's? :oldlol:
Moving the goal posts ey? This is clearly a thread about your Jordan obsession, so lets keep the guidelines there.

Have defensive ratings and pace, on average, not been lower since MJ retired compared to when he was playing? Simply question. :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

Who is talking about early 00's? :oldlol:
Moving the goal posts ey? This is clearly a thread about your Jordan obsession, so lets keep the guidelines there.

When did I move the goal posts? It's always been about the rule changes of the mid 00s. Pay attention.


Have defensive ratings and pace, on average, not been lower since MJ retired compared to when he was playing? Simply question. :oldlol:

No they haven't. They were at their lowest from the mid 90s (when he was winning ring after ring, MVP after MVP, scoring title after scoring title) to the early 00s when he was still doing damage as a senior citizen on a lottery team.

Even when the pace was at its height during the 80s, the Bulls always played at near bottom level paces. As I pointed out, the highest paced Jordan Bulls team (during his rookie season) still played at a lower pace than the Warriors today and his last championship team played at a pace of 89.

[plowking]

When did I move the goal posts? It's always been about the rule changes of the mid 00s. Pay attention.



No they haven't. They were at their lowest from the mid 90s (when he was winning ring after ring, MVP after MVP, scoring title after scoring title) to the early 00s when he was still doing damage as a senior citizen on a lottery team.

Even when the pace was at its height during the 80s, the Bulls always played at near bottom level paces. As I pointed out, the highest paced Jordan Bulls team (during his rookie season) still played at a lower pace than the Warriors today and his last championship team played at a pace of 89.

Again, why did you move the goal posts? :oldlol:

Have defensive ratings been higher or lower as a whole when MJ was playing or after he retired? :oldlol:

Simple question. All you need to say is higher or lower. :oldlol:

[plowking]

No they haven't. They were at their lowest from the mid 90s (when he was winning ring after ring, MVP after MVP, scoring title after scoring title) to the early 00s when he was still doing damage as a senior citizen on a lottery team.


I know all about the mid 90's. MJ was putting up historic finals. Winning on 41% and 43% shooting.

[DonDadda59]

Who is talking about early 00's? :oldlol:
Moving the goal posts ey? This is clearly a thread about your Jordan obsession, so lets keep the guidelines there.

Have defensive ratings and pace, on average, not been lower since MJ retired compared to when he was playing? Simply question. :oldlol:

League wide, higher from 84-93, Lower from 93-03. What's so hard to understand about this? :confusedshrug:


I know all about the mid 90's. MJ was putting up historic finals. Winning on 41% and 43% shooting.

Show me one perimeter player from this era who faced defense remotely as tough as THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpkXlrJxtw)

Lemme guess, Boris Diaw giving Bron 10 ft of space on every jumper is comparable? :roll:

[DonDraper]

League wide, higher from 84-93, Lower from 93-03. What's so hard to understand about this? :confusedshrug:



Show me one perimeter player from this era who faced defense remotely as tough as THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpkXlrJxtw)

Lemme guess, Boris Diaw giving Bron 10 ft of space on every jumper is comparable? :roll:

WTF, are you trollin brah? Thats some of the weakest defense I've ever seen in my life :oldlol:


Jordan has a 4 inch height advantage on Gary Payton, wingspan advantage and the lane is clear cause of no zone defense. So he was basically on an island the entire time.




Imagine going to a park and playing 1-on-1 vs. a short kid, and proceeding to shoot 35% the whole time.

That's Jordan's '96 Finals summed up

[La Frescobaldi]

And yet from the inception of the league until about 2006, the trend had always been a lowering of scoring, pace, etc... And then the league explicitly changed the rules to reverse this trend, and that's exactly what happened.

Sup with that, Teddy Broosevelt? :confusedshrug:

not so. the league speeded up a lot with the 24 second clock and accelerated enormously in about 1960 when the first Golden Era superstars showed up I mean above all Chamberlain of course, but also Baylor, West, Robertson and all those guys.

NBA didn't start slowing down until they got old and retired, ca. 1974 which imo marked the end of the Second Era of the NBA.

now then, from there, i mean about '73 or '74 you can make a case for things slowing down in the league, pretty consistently. Even earlier maybe for some teams. But Lakers, Celtics, Knicks, Bucks were still moving right on out in the early '70s!!

fast break heaven that was the NBA

[tpols]

WTF, are you trollin brah? Thats some of the weakest defense I've ever seen in my life :oldlol:


Jordan has a 4 inch height advantage on Gary Payton, wingspan advantage and the lane is clear cause of no zone defense. So he was basically on an island the entire time.




Imagine going to a park and playing 1-on-1 vs. a short kid, and proceeding to shoot 35% the whole time.

That's Jordan's '96 Finals summed up

That video is great evidence for what curry would do to 90s defense. Notice how they shade the paint and double whenever mj moves toward it... but when he's by the 3 pt line he's in pure single coverage.


Curry would have an absolute field day

[DonDadda59]

WTF, are you trollin brah? Thats some of the weakest defense I've ever seen in my life :oldlol:


Jordan has a 4 inch height advantage on Gary Payton, wingspan advantage and the lane is clear cause of no zone defense. So he was basically on an island the entire time.

Stopped reading there.





Imagine going to a park and playing 1-on-1 vs. a short kid, and proceeding to shoot 35% the whole time.

That's Jordan's '96 Finals summed up

The hilarious thing is that you just described perfectly what happened in last year's finals (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ)


On shots contested by Iguodala, James is shooting 24 percent from the field.
http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106613/iggy-makes-lebrons-shooting-iffy

[INDENT]When guarded by Iguodala in the NBA Finals, 66 of James

[Segatti]

Jordan has a 4 inch height advantage on Gary Payton, wingspan advantage and the lane is clear cause of no zone defense. So he was basically on an island the entire time.

So true :lol

I would love to see prime Jordan facing Kawhi Leonard + 4 defenders clogging the paint, no way in hell would shoot shot 50%+ fg

[DonDraper]

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Stopped reading there.






The hilarious thing is that you just described perfectly what happened in last year's finals (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ)


On shots contested by Iguodala, James is shooting 24 percent from the field.
http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106613/iggy-makes-lebrons-shooting-iffy

[INDENT]When guarded by Iguodala in the NBA Finals, 66 of James

[DonDadda59]

So true :lol

I would love to see prime Jordan facing Kawhi Leonard + 4 defenders clogging the paint, no way in hell would shoot shot 50%+ fg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE5auU7uvwU

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DonDraper]

So true :lol

I would love to see prime Jordan facing Kawhi Leonard + 4 defenders clogging the paint, no way in hell would shoot shot 50%+ fg

Jordan averaged 20 ppg on 48% TS during the modern post 2000- era :roll:


These Jordan stans claim he was the GOAT offensive player, but in the modern era, Jordan was basically a 2016 Rose level player :oldlol:


Put that MJ against Kawhi, Iggy, in high pressure Finals situations, with zone defense, and he wouldnt even average double digit scoring


But he's the "GOAT" tho :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Segatti]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE5auU7uvwU

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Boris Diaw >>>> weak midgets Jordan had to face

[DonDadda59]

What does LeBron have to do with anything you trolling idiot?

Everything you fool.

You brought up defense in the finals and this mythical, impenetrable modern defense that supposedly exist.

Reality says that the best player of his era was guarded in single coverage by a guy considerably smaller than him and shot 30%. In another series he saw Boris Diaw giving him 5 ft of space and daring him to shoot at all times. Those were the sort of defenses put up in the last 2 finals.

But the Sonics were worse?

You must be smoking that good shit. Pass some over here. :lol


Boris Diaw >>>> weak midgets Jordan had to face

Jam, stop it! You're killing me!

http://ballineurope.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Boris-Diaw-Wine.jpg

:yaohappy:

[diamenz]

i'm not super basketball savvy, but i just don't understand how defenses are considered stronger today if the interior d is weaker. defenders are more athletic on the perimeter, but that doesn't make for much of a case. the key to bball is getting to the basket, afterall.

besides, jordan wouldn't need anything but his high iq offensive arsenal to iso today's defenders. believe it or not, it's not all about athleticism, guys.

have you seen the lift on mj's jumpshot? ya, i'm sure he'd have tons of trouble.

[sportjames23]

Boris Diaw >>>> weak midgets Jordan had to face


Another fggt come showing up now. :oldlol:

[OldSchoolBBall]

That video is great evidence for what curry would do to 90s defense. Notice how they shade the paint and double whenever mj moves toward it... but when he's by the 3 pt line he's in pure single coverage.


Curry would have an absolute field day

Not really, no. They would simply play Curry as a shooter and get up on him out there, because his inside game would be largely nullified due to the more crowded paint and actual big men shotblockers. You're kidding yourself if you believe otherwise.


I know all about the mid 90's. MJ was putting up historic finals. Winning on 41% and 43% shooting.

Yeah, on a comparatively (relative to GS) anemic offensive team where he stiil needed to score like 30-40% of the team's points to be competitive.

Unlike Curry, Jordan wasn't playing with a second string backup PG (Livingston) who could come off the bench and give you 15-20 points any given night, scoring effortlessly on cross-matches. He wasn't playing with a guy who can drop 30+ points in a quarter like Klay can. Or a guy like Barnes, who frequently has 15+ point halves. Or playing with the spacing that comes from having 5 guys at 40+% from deep on volume.

[DonDraper]

Notice how he dodged all my other points

Hold this L :lol :lol

[BlakFrankWhite]

Notice how he dodged all my other points

Hold this L :lol :lol

Who's the real don?

Draper or Dadda?

[Bawkish]

That video is great evidence for what curry would do to 90s defense. Notice how they shade the paint and double whenever mj moves toward it... but when he's by the 3 pt line he's in pure single coverage.


Curry would have an absolute field day

LOL not necessarily, of course the way the defense played was based on what the offense dictates. Had Curry played in the '90s, the defense would extend to perimeter and by the looks of it, '90s handchecking would pose problems for Curry.

[DonDadda59]

Notice how he dodged all my other points

Hold this L :lol :lol

You have a hell of a future in stand up comedy, alt.

Boris Diaw. :roll:

[plowking]

Not really, no. They would simply play Curry as a shooter and get up on him out there, because his inside game would be largely nullified due to the more crowded paint and actual big men shotblockers. You're kidding yourself if you believe otherwise.



Yeah, on a comparatively (relative to GS) anemic offensive team where he stiil needed to score like 30-40% of the team's points to be competitive.

Unlike Curry, Jordan wasn't playing with a second string backup PG (Livingston) who could come off the bench and give you 15-20 points any given night, scoring effortlessly on cross-matches. He wasn't playing with a guy who can drop 30+ points in a quarter like Klay can. Or a guy like Barnes, who frequently has 15+ point halves. Or playing with the spacing that comes from having 5 guys at 40+% from deep on volume.

Those guys can do everything because of Curry. And yes, Jordan did have a second string guy who could put up 15 points on any given night. Stop pretending like there wasn't a few guys on the team who could play that SG/SF role.

You still haven't responded to the videos of Reggie Miller and Steph Curry. You are literally avoiding it. You kept saying how defenses would be tougher in the 90's for Curry, yet everything suggest otherwise. :oldlol:

[plowking]

Dadda, that video doesn't show me anything different to what Bron for example has faced. He gets doubled when below the free throw line. Literally the same defense Bron faced against the Spurs, only difference being is that Jordan was a better midrange shooter.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj9oItSQL50
Pause at 16 seconds. Duncan was hedging the whole way. Look right before the pause how Green comes over. Then notice that there is 5 Spurs players in the paint.
Pause at 34 seconds... The whole team is on Lebron. The entire Spurs team is within arms length, with at least two guys having chest contact on him. :oldlol:

Same shit all throughout the video.

[plowking]

League wide, higher from 84-93, Lower from 93-03. What's so hard to understand about this? :confusedshrug:



What is difficult about answering my question?

Answer the question I asked. :oldlol:

[bukowski81]

Dadda, that video doesn't show me anything different to what Bron for example has faced. He gets doubled when below the free throw line. Literally the same defense Bron faced against the Spurs, only difference being is that Jordan was a better midrange shooter.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj9oItSQL50
Pause at 16 seconds. Duncan was hedging the whole way. Look right before the pause how Green comes over. Then notice that there is 5 Spurs players in the paint.
Pause at 34 seconds... The whole team is on Lebron. The entire Spurs team is within arms length, with at least two guys having chest contact on him. :oldlol:

Same shit all throughout the video.

You must be trolling, both videos are day and night. There is not resemblance at all on how the Sonics defended Jordn and the Spurs Lebron.

[plowking]

You must be trolling, both videos are day and night. There is not resemblance at all on how the Sonics defended Jordn and the Spurs Lebron.

Of course there isn't. Jordan was getting a lot of post ups below the elbow where he could just turn and shoot.

[DonDadda59]

You must be trolling, both videos are day and night. There is not resemblance at all on how the Sonics defended Jordn and the Spurs Lebron.

Anyone who even tries to argue with a straight face that the sort of defense we've seen the past few finals is anywhere near the level that Jordan saw against the Sonics is ODing on meth as they post.

For f*cksake the Cavs played playground, clear out one side of the court 1 on 1, everyone stand around and watch LeBron basketball. The Warriors' answer to that was pure isolation 1 on 1 defense.

I mean LOOK AT THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ)... Pure Isolation basketball on both ends.

Then look at how Jordan sets up his looks moving off the ball, coming off screens, posting up, etc and how the Sonics respond with different schemes.

Not to mention the light years difference in physicality.

Perimeter players have it made in the damn shade right now.

[Bawkish]

Of course there isn't. Jordan was getting a lot of post ups below the elbow where he could just turn and shoot.

imagine the life of Lebron having learned how to post up and "just turn & shoot" instead of 20 second iso ball

[Showtime80']

Bawkish hit the nail right on the head!!! People now a days seem to punish the older generation of players because they were MASTERS of the fundamentals and high basketball IQ instead of relying on athleticism the way modern players do.

An analyst on FOX was talking about this the other day and how the modern NBA with their focus on athleticism have made the game not only harder on themselves but also for their teams! He called it the "Rasheed Wallace syndrome", a player who could've been one of the greatest PF's in the history of the game if he just concentrated and kept his as! in the post!!! I still remember Rasheed in the 2000 WCF and aside from Shaq, Wallace was the most unstoppable player in that series, whenever he got it near the paint it was an automatic 2 points. However, the outside jumpers and three pointers were too much of a temptation for him to concentrate on his strengths. He was Tim Duncan's greatest nightmare on both ends for a while! NOT KG!

Same goes for guys like Dwight HOward, DeAndre Jordan and even LeBron like the above poster said. Can you imagine how unstoppable they would be and the great benefit they would be to their offensive schemes if they had just learned 2 to 3 go to post moves that they could unleash anytime in the game!?!?! But what incentive do they have?!? They were multimillionaires before they scored one damn basket in the NBA!

Look at Shaun Livingston on the Warriors for God's sake! A back up scrub with a shredded knee and ALL HE DOES is get great position near the basket and takes advantage of his height with a simple turn around jumper that is almost automatic!!! What miracle zone defense stops him from getting position and that shot off almost every single time? NONE!!!

For the 80's generation of players, the last generation to truly focus on the fundamentals of basketball, the game became EASY!!! because they concentrated on MAXIMIZING their advantages instead of underdeveloping aspects of their game that would become major weaknesses later on!!!

That's why a 34 Jordan could still drop 30ppg on 50%FG in 2016 just on turn around jumpers alone!!! And why Kareem would still kill the present centers shooting his patented skyhook or Malone/Stockton running their pick and roll could probably do it from now ti'll the end of time! Or Adrian Dantley with his crafty inside moves that NOBODY could ever figure out how to stop, the same with James Worthy, Magic, Bird, Isaiah, McHale, Wilkins, Barkley etc...

Modern players think their athleticism can overcome any other deficiency in their fundamentals and that is why can rarely dominate as consistently and for as long as past players did. And now everybody is getting 3 pointer fever which is going bode even WORSE for future players specially the bigger guys.

[Showtime80']

In the same token, look at Tim Duncan and Steve Nash, two guys that came into the NBA in the 90's who had average athleticism even comparing them to 60's players!!! dominated the "uber athletic" post zone NBA just by MAXIMIZING their natural abilities and concentrating in the FUNDAMENTAL aspects of basketball!!! KEEPING IT SIMPLE!!!

Just last year Tim Duncan averaged 14ppg and 9rbs on 51%FG playing only 29 minutes a game, the lowest for his career. Can you imaging a PRIME DUNCAN playing 40+ minutes a game in today's big man starved league and quicker pace?!?!. Think 27ppg and 14rbs on 53% FG EASY!!! While also being the defensive anchor!

Those two players are the greatest argument AGAINST the modern NBA when compared to the 80's generation because their games are based on FUNDAMENTALS the same way those other players games were too!

In the 80's the league was FILLED with players like Nash and Duncan, that's why the game was better while today they are almost NON-EXISTENT!!!

[tpols]

Anyone who even tries to argue with a straight face that the sort of defense we've seen the past few finals is anywhere near the level that Jordan saw against the Sonics is ODing on meth as they post.

For f*cksake the Cavs played playground, clear out one side of the court 1 on 1, everyone stand around and watch LeBron basketball. The Warriors' answer to that was pure isolation 1 on 1 defense.

I mean LOOK AT THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ)... Pure Isolation basketball on both ends.

Then look at how Jordan sets up his looks moving off the ball, coming off screens, posting up, etc and how the Sonics respond with different schemes.

Not to mention the light years difference in physicality.

Perimeter players have it made in the damn shade right now.

why are you comparing lebron's scoring ability to that of curry or jordan's? Curry and Jordan are both deadly off ball and can hit from anywhere on the court (moreso in Curry's case).. Lebron has like an 8 foot radius on the court where he bulldozes and cherry picks his way to 30 ppg

[juju151111]

Who gives a shit? Will Curry have a dominant regular/post-season good has 88 and 91 Mj. Mj is a DPOY which means he spends more energy defensively and doesn't get switch on to role players. Mj guarded Isiah,Magic,clyde,Kj etc.... He doesn't get to hide on defense. Not saying Curry isn't a beast through.

[DonDraper]

why are you comparing lebron's scoring ability to that of curry or jordan's? Curry and Jordan are both deadly off ball and can hit from anywhere on the court (moreso in Curry's case).. Lebron has like an 8 foot radius on the court where he bulldozes and cherry picks his way to 30 ppg


You are a retard :roll:


How do you cherry pick 30ppg?



LeBron is a better isolation scorer than either of them








All 3 of them are better scorers than Kobe btw

[tpols]

How do you cherry pick 30ppg?


Not all buckets are created equal my friend. All three of those guys can impose will and flat out take a game over w/ scoring, hitting anything, anywhere at will. They are like knockout artists. Lebron is like a wrestler that sits on the other guy slowly smothering choking him out.. except against skilled strikers that have vaster arsenals he gets put down. its like checkers to chess, sorry bud

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You are a retard :roll:


How do you cherry pick 30ppg?



LeBron is a better isolation scorer than either of them

Calls somebody retarded and then claims LeBron is a "better isolation scorer" than either Michael Jordan or Stephen Curry.

Darwin Award...the entry standard gets lower every year.

[kurple]

As inflated as MJ's prime numbers I guess.
do you know anything?