ESPN disrespected Bill Russell the most

[Black and White]

I don't see many people talking about how badly they disrespected him, 7th? are you kidding me? just further proves it was a troll listing.

[JohnFreeman]

Weak era

[CavaliersFTW]

I don't see many people talking about how badly they disrespected him, 7th? are you kidding me? just further proves it was a troll listing.
:applause:

Russell is #1 based on being responsible for winning. If that's the heaviest emphasis than he's #1, period.

If there are other things that come into play, like dominance and other individual accolades yeah sure, Wilt KAJ and MJ are the next 3 guys that are also "GOAT" candidates for their own reasons. Russell is at WORST #4 on any all-time list that tries to be collective about accolades and dominance, behind only them in any reasonable opinion and possibly still as high as #1 depending on who you ask.

[He Strong]

This list was just designed to get people talking, nothing more. It was a list version of Stephen A. vs Skip.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Bspn disrespected the entire history of basketball by naming Lebron 3rd all time

Look at his ****ing jumpshot last year in the finals and tell me hes the 3rd greatest basketball player of all time

Look at all the ISOs he had and couldnt do shit

[Doranku]

Wade was the most disrespected imo.

[Dr Hawk]

Garnett @ 21
Duncan @ 8

Nooooooo sir

[90sgoat]

Bspn disrespected the entire history of basketball by naming Lebron 3rd all time

Look at his ****ing jumpshot last year in the finals and tell me hes the 3rd greatest basketball player of all time

Look at all the ISOs he had and couldnt do shit

They put Lebron at 3rd?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[He Strong]

Bspn disrespected the entire history of basketball by naming Lebron 3rd all time

Look at his ****ing jumpshot last year in the finals and tell me hes the 3rd greatest basketball player of all time

Look at all the ISOs he had and couldnt do shit

Yeah, this list will be re-evaluated years from now and it will be quickly disregarded.

[Black and White]

:applause:

Russell is #1 based on being responsible for winning. If that's the heaviest emphasis than he's #1, period.

If there are other things that come into play, like dominance and other individual accolades yeah sure, Wilt KAJ and MJ are the next 3 guys that are also "GOAT" candidates for their own reasons. Russell is at WORST #4 on any all-time list that tries to be collective about accolades and dominance, behind only them in any reasonable opinion and possibly still as high as #1 depending on who you ask.

That's what's confusing the criteria has been inconsistent, it's like rings has mattered for certain players, but level of play matters for others (see Stephen Curry), but if winning means anything I can't see why someone like Russell would be listed at 7. It's a bullshit list.

[TheMarkMadsen]

The did Magic so dirty though

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

Someone on tv needs to start calling Bran out on his Glaring deficiencies

[beastee]

Any list that has Lebron at top three and isn't referencing biggest finals chokers is a joke for sure. Russell, Magic, Shaq all got totally crapped on for no reason. They got 1 & 2 absolutely correct though :rockon:

[outbreak]

All trolling and stanning aside let's face the fact the both Kobe and Lebron would be lucky to be in the top 10 all time....

[He Strong]

All trolling and stanning aside let's face the fact the both Kobe and Lebron would be lucky to be in the top 10 all time....
:applause:

[Akhenaten]

Wade was the most disrespected imo.

yeah they shitted on bro, basically said his three rings didnt mean shit especially his ring in 06

Durant over him is espn spitting in his face

[Black and White]

All trolling and stanning aside let's face the fact the both Kobe and Lebron would be lucky to be in the top 10 all time....

Bingo, look at some of the greats that we name on our lists, they would BOTH be honored to be there with players of that caliber.

[outbreak]

Bingo, look at some of the greats that we name on our lists, they would BOTH be honored to be there with players of that caliber.
Exactly. I can see an argument for either of them in the 8+ range but then you have other guys who are being snubbed or forgotten.

I'm talking all things fair though, if you are purely rating based on if you took guys like Wilt to our time in a time machine and player everyone one on one or something then maybe they'd both rank higher but it's hard to punish guys based on their era and the vast differences in rules/athletic traing/medical attention and the like.

[DMV2]

yeah they shitted on bro, basically said his three rings didnt mean shit especially his ring in 06

Durant over him is espn spitting in his face
Pippen over Wade was the worst.

[Kobe_6/8]

This list is ridiculous, ESPN just wants to get the media talking. Durant over Wade? 11 time champion Russell at #7?

[Nuff Said]

5 mvp's and almost twice the amount of rings as Jordan. Ranked 7. Foh.

[Black and White]

5 mvp's and almost twice the amount of rings as Jordan. Ranked 7. Foh.

The finals MVP award is ****ing named after Russell for gods sake, ESPN just don't get it.

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't see many people talking about how badly they disrespected him, 7th? are you kidding me? just further proves it was a troll listing.

because they didnt, now leave

[Black and White]

because they didnt, now leave

11 time champion, you don't just disregard that, despite era's.

[jlip]

I agree with the OP. And people need to cut this nonsense out acting like the only thing contributing to Russell's greatness is the number of championships he won. He has just as many MVPs as MJ, winning most of them against other top 15 players. He has five rebounding titles. Only Rodman and Wilt have more. If blocks were counted in his era he would have led the league in that stat a few times, also. So he has the perfect combination of championships, personal accolades, and stats. But I forgot, a player is only considered statistically dominant when they win shot jacking... I mean... scoring titles.

[Magic 32]

Lebron said that Russell was not top 4, and ESPN said....ok.

[Bankaii]

Russell is so overrated.
Defense is only overstated when talking about him.
Dude was a massive choker in the Finals, and got carried by his stacked team in a weak era.

[tpols]

Russell is so overrated.
Defense is only overstated when talking about him.
Dude was a massive choker in the Finals, and got carried by his stacked team in a weak era.

How on earth are you a lebron fan ? :biggums:

[Nuff Said]

Russell is so overrated.
Defense is only overstated when talking about him.
Dude was a massive choker in the Finals, and got carried by his stacked team in a weak era.
They named the fmvp award after him, not his teammates. Foh.

[sportjames23]

Bspn disrespected the entire history of basketball by naming Lebron 3rd all time

Look at his ****ing jumpshot last year in the finals and tell me hes the 3rd greatest basketball player of all time

Look at all the ISOs he had and couldnt do shit


LESPN is a joke. I knew they were Bran stans but damn this shit is ridiculous.

Bran in 3rd place all time? Over Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq? FOH

[Lebron23]

LESPN is a joke. I knew they were Bran stans but damn this shit is ridiculous.

Bran in 3rd place all time? Over Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq? FOH


He's a better individual player than those guys. 4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP at aged 31.

[Bankaii]

They named the fmvp award after him, not his teammates. Foh.
Who gaf.

Look at the numbers, dude had multiple series averaging less than 20 points on less than 30% shooting, AS A CENTER.

Imagine if Kobe/Lebron/MJ did that. :roll:

[Black and White]

He's a better individual player than those guys. 4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP at aged 31.

Disagree, take Shaq for example, better peak (arguably the best), 4 x Champion, 3 x FMVP, 1 x MVP.

Duncan is also above LeBron, clearly.

and Russell? He's a ****ing 11 time champion.

[Bankaii]

How on earth are you a lebron fan ? :biggums:
Lebron has choked on 2 Finals.
Kobe has choked in 4.

Get your dumb ass outta here.

[Black and White]

Who gaf.

Look at the numbers, dude had multiple series averaging less than 20 points on less than 30% shooting, AS A CENTER.

Imagine if Kobe/Lebron/MJ did that.

I thought it was widely known that Russell was a GOAT level defensive player that anchored that defense, since when is all about scoring?

[Bankaii]

I thought it was widely known that Russell was a GOAT level defensive player that anchored that defense, since when is all about scoring?
Since when has defense become the most important aspect of the game?

Why is Pippen not ranked a high for his defense?
Why is Hakeem not ranked higher for his defense?
Why is Curry, the worst defender in his rotation, known as the best in the world?
Why is Kahwi or Duncan not recognized as the BITW due to their defense?

Look at the top 10 GOATS. All of them are offensive monsters, except one.

[jlip]

Russell is so overrated.
Defense is only overstated when talking about him.
Dude was a massive choker in the Finals, and got carried by his stacked team in a weak era.

Translation: You are an idiot and have no idea what you're talking about.

Russell won 11 of the 12 Finals he played in, and the only one he lost was the one where he missed half the series due to injury. Why couldn't his "stacked team" in that "weak era" carry him to victory when he went down with his injury.

Also, his stats go up in the Finals. He currently holds NBA Finals records for most rebounds in a game and highest fg% for a 5 game series. He led his team in rebounds for all 11 Finals wins, scoring for two finals wins, and assists for one Finals win. How many players can claim that they have led their teams in scoring, rebounds, and assists in the Finals?

[Lebron23]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/441840-bill-russell-an-overrated-nba-legend

Read this Article. ESPN ranked the best individual players of all times. And Russell's offensive game was kinda averaged.

Celtics were still winning championships without him.

[dhsilv]

meh....not that bad.

[Black and White]

Since when has defense become the most important aspect of the game?

Why is Pippen not ranked a high for his defense?
Why is Hakeem not ranked higher for his defense?
Why is Curry, the worst defender in his rotation, known as the best in the world?
Why is Kahwi or Duncan not recognized as the BITW due to their defense?

Look at the top 10 GOATS. All of them are offensive monsters, except one.

You know why he's in there? Because he lead his team to 11 rings as a defensive anchor, most knowledgeable posters know this.

Duncan is also widely appreciated for his defensive exploits, hence why people didn't dog him for his 2014 ring, because he anchored the defense.

I think you just need to have a bit more of an open mind, you're focusing on one side of the ball.

[jlip]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/441840-bill-russell-an-overrated-nba-legend

Read this Article. ESPN ranked the best individual players of all times. And Russell's offensive game was kinda averaged.

Celtics were still winning championships without him.

You've got to be kidding me?! The Celtics dynasty started and ended with Russell. Most of the players who played against him, the coaches who coached against him, and media who watched him agree with that. Also I would take the arguments of knowledgeable posters like thaRegul8r and G.O.A.T. who have basically studied and researched nearly every game Russell played over those Bleacher Report writers who got their information basically from bballreference box scores and player profiles.

[jimmybball]

The list is a joke.

[Bankaii]

Translation: You are an idiot and have no idea what you're talking about.

Russell won 11 of the 12 Finals he played in, and the only one he lost was the one where he missed half the series due to injury. Why couldn't his "stacked team" in that "weak era" carry him to victory when he went down with his injury.

Also, his stats go up in the Finals. He currently holds NBA Finals records for most rebounds in a game and highest fg% for a 5 game series. He led his team in rebounds for all 11 Finals wins, scoring for two finals wins, and assists for one Finals win. How many players can claim that they have led their teams in scoring, rebounds, and assists in the Finals?
Translation: You're an old fart that can't accept that the 60s were shit.
IIRC MJ and Lebron have done it multiple times.

1957 Finals: 13 points on 36%.
1958 Finals: 15 points on 35%. And I never said his defense didn't have impact. Just because the team lost 2 games without him (they lost 2 games with him as well) doesn't mean they aren't stacked.
1959 Finals: 9 points on 32%.
1960 Finals: 17 points on 47%.
1961 Finals: 18 points on 43%.
1962 Finals: 23 points on 54%.
1963 Finals: 20 points on 46%.
1964 Finals: 11 points on 39%. Wilt raped him.
1965 Finals: 18 points on 70%.
1966 Finals: 24 points on 54%.
1968 Finals: 17 points on 43%.
1969 Finals: 9 points on 40%.

That's 16 points on 45% for his Finals career. For a center that's pure shut, especially for someone that being proclaimed GOAT by some fools.

Russell has GOAT impact and defense but as far as being an individual player goes he's not top 10 at all.

[Black and White]

Translation: You're an old fart that can't accept that the 60s were shit.
IIRC MJ and Lebron have done it multiple times.

1957 Finals: 13 points on 36%.
1958 Finals: 15 points on 35%. And I never said his defense didn't have impact. Just because the team lost 2 games without him (they lost 2 games with him as well) doesn't mean they aren't stacked.
1959 Finals: 9 points on 32%.
1960 Finals: 17 points on 47%.
1961 Finals: 18 points on 43%.
1962 Finals: 23 points on 54%.
1963 Finals: 20 points on 46%.
1964 Finals: 11 points on 39%. Wilt raped him.
1965 Finals: 18 points on 70%.
1966 Finals: 24 points on 54%.
1968 Finals: 17 points on 43%.
1969 Finals: 9 points on 40%.

That's 16 points on 45% for his Finals career. For a center that's pure shut, especially for someone that being proclaimed GOAT by some fools.

Russell has GOAT impact and defense but as far as being an individual player goes he's not top 10 at all.

The first part contradicts the second part dude.

[Bankaii]

You know why he's in there? Because he lead his team to 11 rings as a defensive anchor, most knowledgeable posters know this.

Duncan is also widely appreciated for his defensive exploits, hence why people didn't dog him for his 2014 ring, because he anchored the defense.

I think you just need to have a bit more of an open mind, you're focusing on one side of the ball.
You didn't acknowledge a single question I asked, and it's because you can't answer any of them.

Whether you like it or not, basketball is dominated by offense. Russell is a shit offensive player compared to other GOATS.

And in the 2014 Finals:
Duncan: 15/10/2 on 57%.
Kawhi: 18/6/2 on 61%.

Duncan's defense was obviously key but another major part was the fact that he was their most consistent player offensively too. The gap between the 2 is minuscule, unlike most of the Finals with Russell.

[Lebron23]

Translation: You're an old fart that can't accept that the 60s were shit.
IIRC MJ and Lebron have done it multiple times.

1957 Finals: 13 points on 36%.
1958 Finals: 15 points on 35%. And I never said his defense didn't have impact. Just because the team lost 2 games without him (they lost 2 games with him as well) doesn't mean they aren't stacked.
1959 Finals: 9 points on 32%.
1960 Finals: 17 points on 47%.
1961 Finals: 18 points on 43%.
1962 Finals: 23 points on 54%.
1963 Finals: 20 points on 46%.
1964 Finals: 11 points on 39%. Wilt raped him.
1965 Finals: 18 points on 70%.
1966 Finals: 24 points on 54%.
1968 Finals: 17 points on 43%.
1969 Finals: 9 points on 40%.

That's 16 points on 45% for his Finals career. For a center that's pure shut, especially for someone that being proclaimed GOAT by some fools.

Russell has GOAT impact and defense but as far as being an individual player goes he's not top 10 at all.

Solid Posts. Great research. MJ and LeBron were just better basketball players, played against better competitions, with more NBA Teams.

Russell played in an era where the NBA only had 6,10, 12 teams, And His Celtics teams were the most stacked teams in his era.

[nba_55]

I thought it was widely known that Russell was a GOAT level defensive player that anchored that defense, since when is all about scoring?

He had GOAT level defense? Really? How many games of him did you watch to tell us that? People shouldn't rank players they have never watched period. Russell shouldn't have been in the list.

[Bankaii]

The first part contradicts the second part dude.
Maybe because you lack reading comprehension.

I said his defensive impact is GOAT worthy, because it benefits his TEAM.

But as an INDIVIDUAL, he isn't as talented as the rest of the top 10.

In case you still don't understand, Russell benefits from having a strong team around him and in tact has a great impact for that team.

But without a great team Russell doesn't have the individual skills to carry them.

Switch Russell and Wilt's teams and is there still the same outcome?

[Black and White]

You didn't acknowledge a single question I asked, and it's because you can't answer any of them.

Whether you like it or not, basketball is dominated by offense. Russell is a shit offensive player compared to other GOATS.

And in the 2014 Finals:
Duncan: 15/10/2 on 57%.
Kawhi: 18/6/2 on 61%.

Duncan's defense was obviously key but another major part was the fact that he was their most consistent player offensively too. The gap between the 2 is minuscule, unlike most of the Finals with Russell.

In like 7 of his finals Russell averaged more than those numbers, I don't see how Duncan's numbers can be used as an argument once you factor in defense. You fail to accept that you're only focusing on one aspect of basketball.

[nba_55]

In like 7 of his finals Russell averaged more than those numbers, I don't see how Duncan's numbers can be used as an argument once you factor in defense. You fail to accept that you're only focusing on one aspect of basketball.

You keep talking about his defense, but bro! You have never watched him play defense. His offensive stats are not even top 500.

[Black and White]

He had GOAT level defense? Really? How many games of him did you watch to tell us that? People shouldn't rank players they have never watched period. Russell shouldn't have been in the list.

You don't have to have been alive to understand a players greatness these days. We have access to articles, video clips and data to fall back upon, and I'm sorry but I'm going to weigh the opinion of the players that actually played against him over those of ESPN that's for sure.

[Nuff Said]

Who gaf.

Look at the numbers, dude had multiple series averaging less than 20 points on less than 30% shooting, AS A CENTER.

Imagine if Kobe/Lebron/MJ did that. :roll:
Who gaf? That means he was the best player on the floor for those runs. Why would he need stats if he's winning and widely considered the best player on the floor? If that's the case Oscar would be unanimous goat. But he's not. You know why? Cause the game is about winning and doing what you need for your team to win. He had ****in Sam jones **** does he need to average 30 pts for. And what's very little stated is that his scoring actually increases in the playoffs and finals unlike most players who stay the same or drop. He comes thru with what is needed.

[ClipperRevival]

10-0 in game 7s on 19 ppg and 29 rpg. People disrespecting him don't know sh't about the guy. The most obvious evidence of this is when someone say "stacked team" and mention the HOFers he played with without considering proper context.

Most newbie fans have no idea he took two rings from the superior Wilt led teams in Russell's last 2 years in the league, when no one expected that aging team to win. Heck, he was even tne freaken head coach to boot. You don't play to put up good stats at the expense of the team, you play to WIN. Hello! Russell did whatever he needed to do to help his team win. He had scorers so he filled the niche of rim protector, rebounder, outlet passer and LEADER.

[Mr Feeny]

Now we all know that OP (a secret Kobe stan) is upset his hero was ranked 12th so he's come out with the pretense that he's upset that russel was ranked as "only" 7th all time :( :(


12thBe stays 12thBe :hammertime:

[DonDraper]

10-0 in game 7s on 19 ppg and 29 rpg. People disrespecting him don't know sh't about the guy. The most obvious evidence of this is when someone say "stacked team" and mention the HOFers he played with without considering proper context.

Most newbie fans have no idea he took two rings from the superior Wilt led teams in Russell's last 2 years in the league, when no one expected that aging team to win. Heck, he was even tne freaken head coach to boot. You don't play to put up good stats at the expense of the team, you play to WIN. Hello! Russell did whatever he needed to do to help his team win. He had scorers so he filled the niche of rim protector, rebounder, outlet passer and LEADER.

Great, you basically just admitted he's better than Jordan

[Black and White]

Now we all know that OP (a secret Kobe stan) is upset his hero was ranked 12th so he's come out with the pretense that he's upset that russel was ranked as "only" 7th all time :( :(


12thBe stays 12thBe :hammertime:

I knew it wouldn't be long before you showed up. Funny that you ignore what I said about Loves, Wades, Currys, Shaqs and Duncans rankings right?

I have no problem with LeBron in the top 10, he's just not top 3 or better than MJ, KAJ, Russell, Magic, Bird and Duncan.

7-10 is about right for him for now.

[ClipperRevival]

Translation: You're an old fart that can't accept that the 60s were shit.
IIRC MJ and Lebron have done it multiple times.

1957 Finals: 13 points on 36%.
1958 Finals: 15 points on 35%. And I never said his defense didn't have impact. Just because the team lost 2 games without him (they lost 2 games with him as well) doesn't mean they aren't stacked.
1959 Finals: 9 points on 32%.
1960 Finals: 17 points on 47%.
1961 Finals: 18 points on 43%.
1962 Finals: 23 points on 54%.
1963 Finals: 20 points on 46%.
1964 Finals: 11 points on 39%. Wilt raped him.
1965 Finals: 18 points on 70%.
1966 Finals: 24 points on 54%.
1968 Finals: 17 points on 43%.
1969 Finals: 9 points on 40%.

That's 16 points on 45% for his Finals career. For a center that's pure shut, especially for someone that being proclaimed GOAT by some fools.

Russell has GOAT impact and defense but as far as being an individual player goes he's not top 10 at all.

That's like using Shaq's FT numbers to judge him. First off, the pace was historically high and most teams shot very low pct, so this was the norm. But why aren't you mentioning his rebounding numbers? And you can't really measure defense and leadership. I know one thing, the guy won 11 rings in 13 seasons. Dude was 10-0 in game 7s and elevated his game by putting up 19 ppg and 29 rpg.

You play to win the game. All that winning isn't coincidence. The only constant during this entire time was Russell. Cousy was early, then Jones came on board and Havlicek later in his career. But the only constant was Russell. The guy was a freaken winner. Get over it.

[Mr Feeny]

I knew it wouldn't be long before you showed up. Funny that you ignore what I said about Loves, Wades, Currys, Shaqs and Duncans rankings right?

I have no problem with LeBron in the top 10, he's just not top 3 or better than MJ, KAJ, Russell, Magic, Bird and Duncan.

7-10 is about right for him for now.

Didn't read nor am I interested .
If you think 7th is where lebron belongs then fair play to you. I don't think there's much in it between the 3-8 spots on the list. They're all on a par for me so wouldn't have had a problem with the way any of them were ranked. This faux outrage because someone was "disrespected" because he was ranked 6th instead of 4th is sad.
You're angry your hero was ranked 12th. And that's that.
Keep pretending it's about the ranking of a player you never watched and know nothing about:applause:

[Mr Feeny]

That's like using Shaq's FT numbers to judge him. First off, the pace was historically high and most teams shot very low pct, so this was the norm. But why aren't you mentioning his rebounding numbers? And you can't really measure defense and leadership. I know one thing, the guy won 11 rings in 13 seasons. Dude was 10-0 in game 7s and elevated his game by putting up 19 ppg and 29 rpg.

You play to win the game. All that winning isn't coincidence. The only constant during this entire time was Russell. Cousy was early, then Jones came on board and Havlicek later in his career. But the only constant was Russell. The guy was a freaken winner. Get over it.

Where should he rank all time in your opinion?
What's your top 5-6?

[Black and White]

Didn't read nor am I interested .
If you think 7th is where lebron belongs then fair play to you. I don't think there's much in it between the 3-8 spots on the list. They're all on a par for me so wouldn't have had a problem with the way any of them were ranked. This faux outrage because someone was "disrespected" because he was ranked 6th instead of 4th is sad.
You're angry your hero was ranked 12th. And that's that.
Keep pretending it's about the ranking of a player you never watched and know nothing about:applause:

He was ranked 7th, which, for an 11 time champion is ridiculous, I don't see how you don't understand that.

Anyway, we all know you're a troll, so no point trying to debate why I have an issue with it with you.

[Mr Feeny]

I love to see how he explains about it. According to his logic Russell > 1-9 without Pippen Jordan.

Please tell me you don't think that.
And please tell me your not dumb enough to argue 1-9 or whatever that is.
That's worse than the 2/6 2/7 folks who bash lebron.

[Mr Feeny]

He was ranked 7th, which, for an 11 time champion is ridiculous, I don't see how you don't understand that.

Anyway, we all know you're a troll, so no point trying to debate why I have an issue with it with you.

There it is! The Kobe stan is done:lol you're right. Don't waste my time or anybody else's time.
Your hero was ranked 12. That's what this is really about.
Go cry about it. But atleast be a man and upfront about it.
Using a fake pretense is sad and hillarious at all at once :oldlol:

[ClipperRevival]

Where should he rank all time in your opinion?
What's your top 5-6?

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Russell
4. Wilt

I have those guys in my Mount Rushmore when you consider their entire body of work. Then you have the next tier like Duncan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, etc. They are sort of interchangeable to me.

[Black and White]

There it is! The Kobe stan is done:lol you're right. Don't waste my time or anybody else's time.
Your hero was ranked 12. That's what this is really about.
Go cry about it. But atleast be a man and upfront about it.
Using a fake pretense is sad and hillarious at all at once :oldlol:

Unlike you I don't waste my time trolling this forum. Go back to the top 100 thread.

[Lebron23]

Please tell me you don't think that.
And please tell me your not dumb enough to argue 1-9 or whatever that is.
That's worse than the 2/6 2/7 folks who bash lebron.


I am just joking. 1-9, 2/6 are terrible ISH meme.

[Bankaii]

That's like using Shaq's FT numbers to judge him. First off, the pace was historically high and most teams shot very low pct, so this was the norm. But why aren't you mentioning his rebounding numbers? And you can't really measure defense and leadership. I know one thing, the guy won 11 rings in 13 seasons. Dude was 10-0 in game 7s and elevated his game by putting up 19 ppg and 29 rpg.

You play to win the game. All that winning isn't coincidence. The only constant during this entire time was Russell. Cousy was early, then Jones came on board and Havlicek later in his career. But the only constant was Russell. The guy was a freaken winner. Get over it.
Your Shaq analogy was just dumb. Offense is an entire half of the game, FTs aren't.

I'm glad you mentioned pace, which is exactly why I didn't use his rebounding numbers.
First, unless I'm mistaken there are no offensive rebound stats for the the Finals, so most of those rebounds could be defensive, which has nothing to do with his lack of offense.
Second, if the pace was so high, which you used as an excuse for his poor shooting, why is his scoring so ridiculously low? 9 points average in 2 Finals?

Using rings and finals appearances in a league significantly less talented and with far less teams doesn't make him superior to other GOAT candidates.
If raising your scoring to 19 points and 29 rebounds is great when in today's league that would translate to about 15/15 on 48% for a center that's definitely not GOAT worthy.

He was a winner because he had a HOF lineup in a weak era with 8 teams. You get over it.

[Mr Feeny]

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Russell
4. Wilt

I have those guys in my Mount Rushmore when you consider their entire body of work. Then you have the next tier like Duncan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, etc. They are sort of interchangeable to me.

And that seems reasonable. Jack McCullum said that he'd always think of Russell when he thinks of the mount Rushmore of the NBA but that when he analyses each, Russell's relatively mediocre offense bothers him a bit. As an individual player he only ranked him 6th or 7th all time iirc.
He considered him the best winner of all time (as he should) but didn't want to put him ahead of the Magics and Lebron's of this world.

I personally didn't think there was much in it between the middle 5 or 6 (the 3rd to 7th spot). They could have been in any order as they all seemed on par.
Bird , for example, was 2 spots below magic but was not that much behind magic as a player (some people might have even considered him better).
Bird, Russell, Magic, Wilt and Lebron all seemed in line. Maybe Russell could have gone in ahead of some of the newer players. You seem to value the 60's players. Wouldn't have a problem with your list. Wilt and Russell going in at 3 and 4 would be perfect reasonable because I don't think there's that much of a difference between being ranked the 4th best in history or 6th.

We nitpick at everything at times. Had the list gone that way, Magic fans would be incredulous.

[ClipperRevival]

Your Shaq analogy was just dumb. Offense is an entire half of the game, FTs aren't.

I'm glad you mentioned pace, which is exactly why I didn't use his rebounding numbers.
First, unless I'm mistaken there are no offensive rebound stats for the the Finals, so most of those rebounds could be defensive, which has nothing to do with his lack of offense.
Second, if the pace was so high, which you used as an excuse for his poor shooting, why is his scoring so ridiculously low? 9 points average in 2 Finals?

Using rings and finals appearances in a league significantly less talented and with far less teams doesn't make him superior to other GOAT candidates.
If raising your scoring to 19 points and 29 rebounds is great when in today's league that would translate to about 15/15 on 48% for a center that's definitely not GOAT worthy.

He was a winner because he had a HOF lineup in a weak era with 8 teams. You get over it.

You know what's funny? I used to think just like you. Saw the 11 rings and automatically thought "stacked team." But once I decided to do actual research on him, watch documentaries and just get to know what tyoe of guy he was, I realized that wasn't the case. He caused his teams to win. He was the engine. If you want to just have that ignorant point of view, that's fine. But if you do decide to dig deeper, you'll see what I mean.

No, I am not giving those 11 rings the same weight as if they were accomplished today. And if you require dominant offense from you GOAT level big, that's another factor that will make it hard for him to win you over. But if you value leadership, intangibles, killer instinct, mental fortitude and doing whatever it takes to win along with being an athletic marvel which enabled him to be a GOAT level defender and rebounder, he's your guy.

[Mr Feeny]

I am just joking. 1-9, 2/6 are terrible ISH meme.

I know. You're a better poster than most:cheers:
Don't bother wasting your time with undercover Kobe stans who are so pathetic that they stoop to the level where they create fake accounts.
Warriorfan. This OP. Ballinhun8. Are all going to try to discredit anything that praises Lebron and that denigrates Kobe. The meltdowns have been great this week.

And now we have this list for the next 10 years :hammertime:

[Mr Feeny]

You know what's funny? I used to think just like you. Saw the 11 rings and automatically thought "stacked team." But once I decided to do actual research on him, watch documentaries and just get to know what tyoe of guy he was, I realized that wasn't the case. He caused his teams to win. He was the engine. If you want to just have that ignorant point of view, that's fine. But if you do decide to dig deeper, you'll see what I mean.

No, I am not giving those 11 rings the same weight as if they were accomplished today. And if you require dominant offense from you GOAT level big, that's another factor that will make it hard for him to win you over. But if you value leadership, intangibles, killer instinct, mental fortitude and doing whatever it takes to win along with being an athletic marvel which enabled him to be a GOAT level defender and rebounder, he's your guy.

Tbf you haven't addressed his first point. Regardless of ft%, Shaq had a high true shooting percentage because he was ultra efficient from the field. They were all dunks. On offense, there isn't much debate that Shaq was a better offensive player than Russell.

Russell was the best defensive player maybe of all time. That's fair. Is that alone enough to make him a top 2-3 player of all time?

[ClipperRevival]

And that seems reasonable. Jack McCullum said that he'd always think of Russell when he thinks of the mount Rushmore of the NBA but that when he analyses each, Russell's relatively mediocre offense bothers him a bit. As an individual player he only ranked him 6th or 7th all time iirc.
He considered him the best winner of all time (as he should) but didn't want to put him ahead of the Magics and Lebron's of this world.

I personally didn't think there was much in it between the middle 5 or 6 (the 3rd to 7th spot). They could have been in any order as they all seemed on par.
Bird , for example, was 2 spots below magic but was not that much behind magic as a player (some people might have even considered him better).
Bird, Russell, Magic, Wilt and Lebron all seemed in line. Maybe Russell could have gone in ahead of some of the newer players. You seem to value the 60's players. Wouldn't have a problem with your list. Wilt and Russell going in at 3 and 4 would be perfect reasonable because I don't think there's that much of a difference between being ranked the 4th best in history or 6th.

We nitpick at everything at times. Had the list gone that way, Magic fans would be incredulous.

Yeah, some will always require a GOAT level big to be a dominant offensive force. And that is 100% reasonable. But a GOAT list is looking at the entire body of work and different from peak or "what C would you take to start a team?" In those topics, I can see Russell getting picked anywhere from 5-10. But GOAT list? 5 mvp, what should be 8-9 fmvp, 11 rings, GOAT winner, etc. Few can top that resume.

[Mr Feeny]

Yeah, some will always require a GOAT level big to be a dominant offensive force. And that is 100% reasonable. But a GOAT list is looking at the entire body of work and different from peak or "what C would you take to start a team?" In those topics, I can see Russell getting picked anywhere from 5-10. But GOAT list? 5 mvp, what should be 8-9 fmvp, 11 rings, GOAT winner, etc. Few can top that resume.

That was EXACTLY the point McCullum maxed. Which centre would you take for your all time starting 5? Russell. Easy. You can get scoring from Jordan and company and Russell would be your best defender and one that would make the team unbeatable through his sheer defensive work.

But they aren't being ranked on whom you'd pick for an all time list. They're ranked on how great they are individually. For some people, there are 4-5 players (all time ) who are more compete than Russell. We all accept that by consensus most think russel is the best defender ever.
If his advantage of defense enough to warrant putting him above some 3-4 players all time in spite of disadvantage on offense?

Maybe you're right. I'm just trying to delineate their thought process:cheers:

[Bankaii]

You know what's funny? I used to think just like you. Saw the 11 rings and automatically thought "stacked team." But once I decided to do actual research on him, watch documentaries and just get to know what tyoe of guy he was, I realized that wasn't the case. He caused his teams to win. He was the engine. If you want to just have that ignorant point of view, that's fine. But if you do decide to dig deeper, you'll see what I mean.

No, I am not giving those 11 rings the same weight as if they were accomplished today. And if you require dominant offense from you GOAT level big, that's another factor that will make it hard for him to win you over. But if you value leadership, intangibles, killer instinct, mental fortitude and doing whatever it takes to win along with being an athletic marvel which enabled him to be a GOAT level defender and rebounder, he's your guy.
I understand the points you're making, but it still doesn't explain everything.

Relative to his competition, the Celtics had a stacked roster. Whether Russell made them a GOAT tier team or not, they were still very talented.

I'm not arguing against Russell's impact. He's one of, if not the most, impactful players of all time, defensively.

But when it comes down to it, a true GOAT has to have the ability to dominate a game. If you have no offensive skill set on that level you can't do that. What make Wilt/Shaq/Hakeem/Kareem etc better centers than Russell to me is the fact that they had the ability to determine the outcome of a game with their dominance on offense.

As great as Russell was on defense, you can't dominate a game single handedly on defense like you can on offense.

We can debate forever about this but at the end of the day when you put things into perspective everyone on the GOAT list was a dominant scorer (even Timmy at one point).

I personally have Russell at 4 on my list due to his winning, but in terms of individual game and talent, he's not top 10.

[ClipperRevival]

That was EXACTLY the point McCullum maxed. Which centre would you take for your all time starting 5? Russell. Easy. You can get scoring from Jordan and company and Russell would be your best defender and one that would make the team unbeatable through his sheer defensive work.

But they aren't being ranked on whom you'd pick for an all time list. They're ranked on how great they are individually. For some people, there are 4-5 players (all time ) who are more compete than Russell. We all accept that by consensus most think russel is the best defender ever.
If his advantage of defense enough to warrant putting him above some 3-4 players all time in spite of disadvantage on offense?

Maybe you're right. I'm just trying to delineate their thought process:cheers:

Like I said, the GOAT list, at least to me, is about the entire body of work. That's different from peak or "what C was most complete?" If you look at Russell's game on both ends and compare him to other GOAT C, I can see him being ranked anywhere from 5-10. But on the GOAT list, you can argue no C touches him when you consider his rings. And it's not like he was a Horry type role player. He was the best player for 8-9 of those championships. He provided exactly what was needed for his teams to win. But like I told Bankii, if you are dead set on degrading Russell somewhat because he wasn't a dominant offensive force, I can see that point.

[ClipperRevival]

I understand the points you're making, but it still doesn't explain everything.

Relative to his competition, the Celtics had a stacked roster. Whether Russell made them a GOAT tier team or not, they were still very talented.

I'm not arguing against Russell's impact. He's one of, if not the most, impactful players of all time, defensively.

But when it comes down to it, a true GOAT has to have the ability to dominate a game. If you have no offensive skill set on that level you can't do that. What make Wilt/Shaq/Hakeem/Kareem etc better centers than Russell to me is the fact that they had the ability to determine the outcome of a game with their dominance on offense.

As great as Russell was on defense, you can't dominate a game single handedly on defense like you can on offense.

We can debate forever about this but at the end of the day when you put things into perspective everyone on the GOAT list was a dominant scorer (even Timmy at one point).

I personally have Russell at 4 on my list due to his winning, but in terms of individual game and talent, he's not top 10.

I see what you're saying. If I had to pick a C to start a team, I would probably take at least several guys over him. But at the same time, bball is a team game and the pieces have to fit. It's not the worst thing to have a straight dominant rim protector, rebounder, outlet passer and leader. All that contributes positively to your team. Maybe the team with Shaq or KAJ gets more points but perhaps the chemistry won't be as good as with Russell. I know that sounds ridiculous but things like chemistry within a team is huge. Bball should be played with flow and rhythm and if you break that up, it's harder to win. I just got the sense that Russell was the ultimate winner because he just did whatever the team needed EXCEPT take over scoring ability. That's huge but he just did everything else, including pass the ball. Sometimes it's hard to quantify impact just by looking at the stats. Like the will to win, killer instinct, leadership, etc. Russell just had all of that.

[Mr Feeny]

Like I said, the GOAT list, at least to me, is about the entire body of work. That's different from peak or "what C was most complete?" If you look at Russell's game on both ends and compare him to other GOAT C, I can see him being ranked anywhere from 5-10. But on the GOAT list, you can argue no C touches him when you consider his rings. And it's not like he was a Horry type role player. He was the best player for 8-9 of those championships. He provided exactly what was needed for his teams to win. But like I told Bankii, if you are dead set on degrading Russell somewhat because he wasn't a dominant offensive force, I can see that point.

This is what has me confused. I'm not sure I'm fully grasping your mindset. We may be approaching things from a different vantage point. I do see your point though. And like I said, I certainly don't have a problem with Russell ranked 3rd all time:cheers:

[FKAri]

All trolling and stanning aside let's face the fact the both Kobe and Lebron would be lucky to be in the top 10 all time....

I think they're both pretty lucky.

[ClipperRevival]

Also, Russell won 2 NCAA championships and a Gold medal. The guy was just a winner. Whatever he brought to the table, it helped his teams beat everyone else. Heck, from 1955 through 1969 (15 seasons), his teams won 13 titles (2 NCAA and 11 NBA). All this winning isn't just coincidence. Russell had "it".

[ClipperRevival]

And just think about the fact that he faced game 7 elimination 10 times and was 10-0. And what makes this most impressive was that these occurred in 9 different seasons. Meaning if he goes 5-5 in those 10 games, he has 5 less rings, just like that. And the fact that he elevated his game to 19 ppg and 29 rpg shows you exactly what type of clutch player he was. If Russell didn't actually do all this and I said what I said, most people would say I'm full of sh*t because it sounds too good to be true.

[TheBigVeto]

I don't see many people talking about how badly they disrespected him, 7th? are you kidding me? just further proves it was a troll listing.

This.
He should be #1

[Carbine]

I'm mildly disappointed KBlaze has not posted in this thread yet.

You could pretty much /thread with his post on Russell.

I'll save KBlaze the effort:


Bill Russell is 2.reasonable what ifs and not breaking his ankle in the finals from having won every championship he possibly could have from age 16 to 35.



Even without what ifs he won back-to-back state titles, back to back NCAA titles with 55 wins in a row, and 11 of 13 championships in the NBA with an Olympic gold medal by the widest margin of victory ever outside of the first dream team. Two the Championships he won... he coached the team to. The players not the media voted him the MVP five times. He literally played all five positions. At one point he was like 4th in the NBA in assists and first or second in rebounds while scoring as well and blocking shots at an unheard of rate.


His whole career and to this day people at like he won because his team was ridiculous and his college team had never made a tournament before him and only made 1-2 deep runs in the 60 years since he left and the Celtics missed the playoffs back to back seasons when he retired and lost in the finals when he broke his ankle mid series. And that team had three all NBA First Teamers before he got there and never even made the finals. People said it was Red...then he coached them to two titles himself. Red never even made the finals in 16 years of coaching pre Russell despite having the best record in the league several times.


Bill Russell practically created victory. I bet he would have found a way to win the gold in the high jump had they let him compete in both that and basketball at the Olympics. He was ranked number 2 in America and was high jumping six nine and change going over the bar forward doing track in his spare time.


If we are going to give him the what if treatment his career only takes a couple to be completely unblemished from middle school to retirement.

ussell won everything he competed for. Everything.

Not like he was the only one playing. I cant call it an era thing while other all time greats were losing. Elgin Baylor lost 3 game 7s to Russell by a total of like 7 points. Thats not Elgin being in a different era. Its Russell not letting his team lose. He had a 30/40 game 7....a 25/30 something game 7 where he outscored Baylor....who he covered much of the first half and held to 1-9 shooting.

Guys just kept coming up short vs Russell.

Hes dropping 25/28/14 triple doubles. He was the worst Ft shooter in the NBA and he shot 70+% in game 7s. One game they tried what we now call Hack a Shaq....game 7 for the title...he goes 14/17 from the line. A 55% shooter....he sinks 14/17 to win the title by 2 points. 3 years later he was perfect from the line in game 7...another 2 point win for the title.

He had finals winning blocks. Finals game winning baskets. A finals game winning putback dunk. Set a still standing finals record for shooting percentage(70%) in a season he only shot 43%. To closeout the 63 finals...he had only 12 points...but 24 rebounds 9 assists...and he blocked 8 shots 5 of them Jerry West jumpers in a 3 point win.

Bill Russell refused to lose.

Plenty of others were in the same league. But he would do whatever it took not to lose.

[ClipperRevival]

:applause:

This is why I respect him more than Wilt. Wilt had all the physical advantages but was a mental midget when compared to Russell. I respect guys who are willing to dig down deep and push harder than the other guy and don't respect guys who probably left something on the court because they didn't push as hard. Underachievers get no love in my book.

[Carbine]

:applause:

This is why I respect him more than Wilt. Wilt had all the physical advantages but was a mental midget when compared to Russell. I respect guys who are willing to dig down deep and push harder than the other guy and don't respect guys who probably left something on the court because they didn't push as hard. Underachievers get no love in my book.

Exactly. :cheers:

Even if ESPN was just trying to get click bait with this list, they should have been more respectful to the great Bill Russell.

[Asukal]

:applause:

This is why I respect him more than Wilt. Wilt had all the physical advantages but was a mental midget when compared to Russell. I respect guys who are willing to dig down deep and push harder than the other guy and don't respect guys who probably left something on the court because they didn't push as hard. Underachievers get no love in my book.

Russell deserves the number 2 spot, he's the Einstein of winning. When you look at his body of work compared to a guy like say KAJ, there is really not much debate here. Russell has the FMVP award named after him, KAJ needed Magic to carry him to 5 titles winning only 1 FMVP along the way. If we are to downplay Kobe for being Shaq's sidekick for 3 titles, we should also downplay KAJ winning only 2 FMVPs his whole career. Wilt? He's just a stat padding loser, zero arguments whatsoever. :cheers:

[feyki]

Who cares espn ? :D . Russell is goat and i know that .