The anti-espn top 25 list

[Dragonyeuw]

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Lebron
Kobe
Hakeem
Oscar
West
Moses
Dr.J
Malone
Dirk
Barkley
Garnett
Wade
Baylor
Robinson
Isiah
Mikan
Pippen

For those who spit their coffee at the sight of Mikan, even though he'd likely be a 10th man if he even made the league today, his relevance and historical significance to the league should be acknowledged IMO with a top 25 ranking.

So...better than ESPN's list? Worse? Flame shield is activated and ready.

[pastis]

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Lebron
Kobe
Hakeem
Oscar
West
Moses
Dr.J
Malone
Dirk
Barkley
Garnett
Wade
Baylor
Robinson
Isiah
Mikan
Pippen

For those who spit their coffee at the sight of Mikan, even though he'd likely be a 10th man if he even made the league today, his relevance and historical significance to the league should be acknowledged IMO with a top 25 ranking.

So...better than ESPN's list? Worse? Flame shield is activated and ready.

looks very solid to me. although rank10-20 is very very difficult to rank properly, objective.

but all in all: very good list

[feyki]

Better .

But Pippen has no case to top 25(Isiah too) . And Hakeem got underrated . And Mikan , of course .

[FKAri]

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Lebron
Kobe
Hakeem
Oscar
West
Moses
Dr.J
Malone
Dirk
Barkley
Garnett
Wade
Baylor
Robinson
Isiah
Mikan
Pippen

For those who spit their coffee at the sight of Mikan, even though he'd likely be a 10th man if he even made the league today, his relevance and historical significance to the league should be acknowledged IMO with a top 25 ranking.

So...better than ESPN's list? Worse? Flame shield is activated and ready.

What would Bill Russell be if he made the league today then?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Mikan would easily be better than Steph Curry today dumbass :facepalm

The disrespect

[feyki]

Mikan would easily be better than Steph Curry today dumbass :facepalm

The disrespect

35-15-5-1-3 with %60 TS :bowdown: :bowdown: . Curry offence with Marc Defence :bowdown: .

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Pippen shouldn't be there and Garnett should be moved up but for the most part I agree with the names there being the top 25.

[Dragonyeuw]

Thanks to Pastis, Fekyi,FKAri and 24-Inch_Chrome for their relevant comments. Trying to have a decent discussion( unlikely on this board I realize) without the personal attacks and stupidity of the usual suspects.

FKAri, good question regarding what would Russell be in today's league. I think with Russell, the things that made him great in his era, on top of his leadership, would translate today. What would he be like today? Difficult to say. It's hard to simply transfer players from one era to the next without considering how players are always impacted and take lessons from the generation(s) before them. So if Russell was coming along today, his game would be different. Maybe he's more of a scorer. Maybe he's not as prolific a rebounder or shotblocker. Hard to say. Mikan, what he did and was....not sure how that would translate to today. He'd likely be very average by modern standards. But he is a pioneer, and felt top 25 on that basis alone is warranted. Subjective? Arbitrary? Absolutely.

Fekyi, fair point on Pippen and I admittedly wavered on putting him at 25. As for Hakeem, very hard for me to put outside the top ten. For my list, Lebron's ascension into top ten status made Hakeem the casualty in this. It was between Hakeem and Kobe for 10th; I went with Kobe. I just don't think looking at what he has done over 17 years( not looking at the last 3), that between his skills, achievements and accolades, that he doesn't have a top 10 GOAT career. I just can't reconcile in my mind leaving Kobe out of the top 10. IMO the chasm between Lebron and Kobe isn't nine places apart like ESPN's list....that's totally ridiculous. To me, they're both top 10 years regardless of where one chooses to rank them.

24_inch, regarding Garnett's ranking, 15-20 is very difficult for me to rank. Because as far as I'm concerned, Malone, Barkley, Dirk, Garnett are on the same tier of greatness. You can throw those names up in the air, and however they land sequentially, I'd be perfectly fine with. In the same breath, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Lebron, and Kobe are in that category where I may rank them differently next week. It's tough. What I mainly wanted to avoid was crazy shit like Lebron being 9 places ahead of Kobe, or Stockton being 19th, or Durant being one spot below KG. Those were a few of the major WTF outliers with ESPN's list, but there are obviously alot more examples.

[Marchesk]

And Hakeem got underrated.

Who would you rank Hakeem in front of? Shaq? Kobe?

[coin24]

Mj
Kaj
Russell
Bird
Magic. (Tier 1 guys)

Duncan
Kobe
Shaq (tier 2 guys, interchangeable how u like)

Wilt

Hakeem
Lebron (tier 3, interchangeable)




I can't rate wilt any higher due to playoffs and finals drop off in performance and failing to win with stacked casts.. Same goes for bran.

[Nuff Said]

What would Bill Russell be if he made the league today then?
Tim Duncan. A highly intelligent leader.

[jimmybball]

Clearly better than ESPN's.

[Harison]

1. MJ
2-3. Russell/Kareem
4. Wilt
5-6. Bird/Magic
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Kobe
11. Lebron
12. West
13. Moses
14. Oscar
15. Garnett
16. Dr.J
17. Malone
18. Dirk
19. Robinson
20. Barkley

[coin24]

1. MJ
2-3. Russell/Kareem
4. Wilt
5-6. Bird/Magic
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Kobe
11. Lebron
12. West
13. Moses
14. Oscar
15. Garnett
16. Dr.J
17. Malone
18. Dirk
19. Robinson
20. Barkley

Hakeem over shaq Duncan Kobe???

[Harison]

Hakeem over shaq Duncan Kobe???
Yes, he was more dominant and better player than either of them, especially in the Playoffs, and his championship runs were more impressive either.

[Lebron23]

1. MJ
2-3. Russell/Kareem
4. Wilt
5-6. Bird/Magic
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Kobe
11. Lebron
12. West
13. Moses
14. Oscar
15. Garnett
16. Dr.J
17. Malone
18. Dirk
19. Robinson
20. Barkley

This is a terrible Lists. You don't know $hit about basketball. You don't even play basketball. Truth Hurts.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

24_inch, regarding Garnett's ranking, 15-20 is very difficult for me to rank. Because as far as I'm concerned, Malone, Barkley, Dirk, Garnett are on the same tier of greatness. You can throw those names up in the air, and however they land sequentially, I'd be perfectly fine with. In the same breath, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Lebron, and Kobe are in that category where I may rank them differently next week. It's tough. What I mainly wanted to avoid was crazy shit like Lebron being 9 places ahead of Kobe, or Stockton being 19th, or Durant being one spot below KG. Those were a few of the major WTF outliers with ESPN's list, but there are obviously alot more examples.
Completely understand the 15-20 difficulty. I'm no expert on Garnett but if you ever see fpliii posting, be sure to ask him. Very knowledgeable on Garnett and he knows his stuff without being overbearing, overall great poster, always tries to be objective.

You did a great job, the 25 included are basically all either locks or have a case. Not everyone is going to agree on every pick but it looks much, much better than ESPN's. If ISH wasn't such a shit show it might be interesting to try making our own top 100 list the same way that RealGM did but it'd be more trouble than it's worth here. :oldlol:

[Lebron23]

How can Wilt be the 2nd greatest player of all time? When he had the same accomplishments as LeBron? And LeBron is the superior playoffs, and Finals performer.

Both of them also held many records in the NBA.

[sdot_thadon]

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Lebron
Kobe
Hakeem
Oscar
West
Moses
Dr.J
Malone
Dirk
Barkley
Garnett
Wade
Baylor
Robinson
Isiah
Mikan
Pippen

For those who spit their coffee at the sight of Mikan, even though he'd likely be a 10th man if he even made the league today, his relevance and historical significance to the league should be acknowledged IMO with a top 25 ranking.

So...better than ESPN's list? Worse? Flame shield is activated and ready.
Good list, I've got a couple of questions.

Do you consider aba when rating dr.j? He's one of the more difficult to place for for that reason.

I've got lebron around 7th him shaq and duncan are interchangeable on my ever changing list. I feel like him and wilt share similar cases due to much being the same aside from wilts career numbers dominance. What the difference between the 2 for you?

[sdot_thadon]

Mj
Kaj
Russell
Bird
Magic. (Tier 1 guys)

Duncan
Kobe
Shaq (tier 2 guys, interchangeable how u like)

Wilt

Hakeem
Lebron (tier 3, interchangeable)




I can't rate wilt any higher due to playoffs and finals drop off in performance and failing to win with stacked casts.. Same goes for bran.
If that hold True, then you just conveniently look the other way at magic and kareem both losing 4 finals with the teams they've had? Bird lost 2 with the cast he had. Shaq and kobe lost with one of the most overwhelming ones too. So I guess they've all gotta drop by your standards....

[Dragonyeuw]

Good list, I've got a couple of questions.

Do you consider aba when rating dr.j? He's one of the more difficult to place for for that reason.

I've got lebron around 7th him shaq and duncan are interchangeable on my ever changing list. I feel like him and wilt share similar cases due to much being the same aside from wilts career numbers dominance. What the difference between the 2 for you?

Yes I do consider that as well. I don't think the NBA portion of his career would have him in the top 20.

As for Shaq/Wilt, I think it's more a case of Wilt being the originator, or Shaq 1.0. Obviously his records are off the charts and many will never come close to being duplicated( granted it's era specific, but I won't discredit on that basis). I think, when it comes to that top 5 category, you're getting into the very minute, and subjective, details. Where do you have Wilt and Shaq in your personal list?

[SouBeachTalents]

I feel like Pettit always gets shafted on these lists. Dude was a 2x MVP, 10x All-NBA and led one of only two teams to ever beat the Russell Celtics in the playoffs. He came up just short of defeating them again, losing to those Celtics twice in Game 7 of the Finals, including a double OT defeat in '57

Hondo should also definitely be on this list, was also 10x All-NBA and arguably the best player on 3 championship teams ('68, '69, '74)

I'd swap those two with Pippen & Mikan. I understand Mikan completely dominated his era, and I wouldn't blame someone for putting him top 25, but he just played in an unprecedentedly different era from anyone else on that list. Not counting his final season in '56, when he was a shell of himself, Mikan never played with a shot clock, and imo never went up against great competiton. Who was the best player he faced, Dolph Schayes? At least Pettit was in the shot clock era going up against the likes of Russell/Baylor/West/Wilt

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Very good list, and nearly identical to mine except that I have KAJ over Wilt.

Its great seeing another poster rate Shaq accordingly. His value and dominance couldn't be more understated with these garbage media rankings.

[SouBeachTalents]

Very good list, and nearly identical to mine except that I have KAJ over Wilt.

Its great seeing another poster rank Shaq accordingly. His value and dominance couldn't be more understated with these garbage media lists.

Like SI having him 15th :lol. I'm in straight up disbelief over that one

[Dragonyeuw]

Completely understand the 15-20 difficulty. I'm no expert on Garnett but if you ever see fpliii posting, be sure to ask him. Very knowledgeable on Garnett and he knows his stuff without being overbearing, overall great poster, always tries to be objective.

You did a great job, the 25 included are basically all either locks or have a case. Not everyone is going to agree on every pick but it looks much, much better than ESPN's. If ISH wasn't such a shit show it might be interesting to try making our own top 100 list the same way that RealGM did but it'd be more trouble than it's worth here. :oldlol:

Yes I think I recall seeing some good stuff from him on Garnett. Hopefully he sees this and weighs in.

I agree that the inclusion of those 25 is more important than the finer details of the rankings, especially in that 10-20 range. Very hard to measure. The thing is, all these guys are truly great and circumstances play so much in how a player's career develops, in addition to alot of intangibles beyond stats and rings etc etc.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How can Wilt be the 2nd greatest player of all time? When he had the same accomplishments as LeBron? And LeBron is the superior playoffs, and Finals performer.

Both of them also held many records in the NBA.

Huh?

Wilt had the same "accomplishments" as LeBron, but actually was the superior regular season, playoff and Finals performer. Not sure how or why you confused the bold.

[coin24]

If that hold True, then you just conveniently look the other way at magic and kareem both losing 4 finals with the teams they've had? Bird lost 2 with the cast he had. Shaq and kobe lost with one of the most overwhelming ones too. So I guess they've all gotta drop by your standards....


They all still won more than they lost. They are winners.
Next tier down is the wilts and lebrons, still great players but not on par with the other guys..
And to the other poster who said Hakeem was more dominant :lol
Shaq was the most dominant player ever, go and rewatch 2000-03, just brutal

[Dragonyeuw]

I feel like Pettit always gets shafted on these lists. Dude was a 2x MVP, 10x All-NBA and led one of only two teams to ever beat the Russell Celtics in the playoffs. He came up just short of defeating them again, losing to those Celtics twice in Game 7 of the Finals, including a double OT defeat in '57

Hondo should also definitely be on this list, was also 10x All-NBA and arguably the best player on 3 championship teams ('68, '69, '74)

I'd swap those two with Pippen & Mikan. I understand Mikan completely dominated his era, and I wouldn't blame someone for putting him top 25, but he just played in an unprecedentedly different era from anyone else on that list. Not counting his final season in '56, when he was a shell of himself, Mikan never played with a shot clock, and imo never went up against great competiton. Who was the best player he faced, Dolph Schayes? At least Pettit was in the shot clock era going up against the likes of Russell/Baylor/West/Wilt

That's completely fair, FWIW both Hondo and Petit's name crossed my mind when trying to make my last few picks.

[ShawkFactory]

What would Bill Russell be if he made the league today then?
Ben Wallace but smarter and better all-around.

And dominant force and sure-fire MVP candidate.

[Dragonyeuw]

Very good list, and nearly identical to mine except that I have KAJ over Wilt.

Its great seeing another poster rate Shaq accordingly. His value and dominance couldn't be more understated with these garbage media rankings.

When I first thought up the list, I had Kareem over Wilt. I can't even recall what was the deciding factor in me picking Wilt. Hell, if I had to do this tomorrow, I'd probably pick Kareem. I see Lebron23 above asking how is Wilt the 2nd best player. The thing is, there isn't much separation at the very top. 1-10 at THIS level....the details are incredibly fine. Which is why I don't tend to get caught up a great deal in specific rankings unless they are way out in left field.

[SouBeachTalents]

That's completely fair, FWIW both Hondo and Petit's name crossed my mind when trying to make my last few picks.

This was an excellent list though :cheers: Everyone you ranked is appropriately placed, and would basically be where I rank them as well. MUCH better than ESPN's & SI's lists

[Dragonyeuw]

This was an excellent list though :cheers: Everyone you ranked is appropriately placed, and would basically be where I rank them as well. MUCH better than ESPN's & SI's lists

Thanks :cheers:

[feyki]

Thanks to Pastis, Fekyi,FKAri and 24-Inch_Chrome for their relevant comments. Trying to have a decent discussion( unlikely on this board I realize) without the personal attacks and stupidity of the usual suspects.



Fekyi, fair point on Pippen and I admittedly wavered on putting him at 25. As for Hakeem, very hard for me to put outside the top ten. For my list, Lebron's ascension into top ten status made Hakeem the casualty in this. It was between Hakeem and Kobe for 10th; I went with Kobe. I just don't think looking at what he has done over 17 years( not looking at the last 3), that between his skills, achievements and accolades, that he doesn't have a top 10 GOAT career. I just can't reconcile in my mind leaving Kobe out of the top 10. IMO the chasm between Lebron and Kobe isn't nine places apart like ESPN's list....that's totally ridiculous. To me, they're both top 10 years regardless of where one chooses to rank them.



Actually there was two different Hakeem . Before 92 and After 92 . Before 92 Hakeem was bad on shooting, playmaking . But he was great on defensive side , again . Actually he was like Ewing with superior defence . That Hakeem probably isn't top 10 player , like Moses or Elgin ; he had big lacks in game .

But After 92 Hakeem was arguably best player of the year 3 consecutive years ( Yes , he was as good as 93 Jordan ) . 95 Hakeem was little bit nasty on defence . And Horry was their defensive leader at 95 Playoffs . But Hakeem was great on offensive side at that playoffs ( specially against Admiral) . 96 Hakeem was just bad . And 97 Season was Hakeem's last shot and he was arguably second best after Jordan at that season .

With 93-95 prime and plus 97 season , yes I have him in my top 10 , and that's clear in my mind .

[Dragonyeuw]

But After 92 Hakeem was arguably best player of the year 3 consecutive years ( Yes , he was as good as 93 Jordan ) . 95 Hakeem was little bit nasty on defence . And Horry was their defensive leader at 95 Playoffs . But Hakeem was great on offensive side at that playoffs ( specially against Admiral) . 96 Hakeem was just bad . And 97 Season was Hakeem's last shot and he was arguably second best after Jordan at that season .

With 93-95 prime and plus 97 season , yes I have him in my top 10 , and that's clear in my mind .

Agreed, and I had one hell of a hard time putting Hakeem at 11. He's always been in my top ten. Ask me again next week, and he's probably there lol. But who would you personally take out to make room for him? If I had to guess, Kobe?

[jlip]

Actually there was two different Hakeem . Before 92 and After 92 . Before 92 Hakeem was bad on shooting, playmaking . But he was great on defensive side , again . Actually he was like Ewing with superior defence . That Hakeem probably isn't top 10 player , like Moses or Elgin ; he had big lacks in game .

But After 92 Hakeem was arguably best player of the year 3 consecutive years ( Yes , he was as good as 93 Jordan ) . 95 Hakeem was little bit nasty on defence . And Horry was their defensive leader at 95 Playoffs . But Hakeem was great on offensive side at that playoffs ( specially against Admiral) . 96 Hakeem was just bad . And 97 Season was Hakeem's last shot and he was arguably second best after Jordan at that season .

With 93-95 prime and plus 97 season , yes I have him in my top 10 , and that's clear in my mind .


An old poster, NugzHeat3, has some great information on this topic in this thread. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=297975)

[Lebron23]

Huh?

Wilt had the same "accomplishments" as LeBron, but actually was the superior regular season, playoff and Finals performer. Not sure how or why you confused the bold.


I meant same numbers of titles.

[sdot_thadon]

They all still won more than they lost. They are winners.
Next tier down is the wilts and lebrons, still great players but not on par with the other guys..
And to the other poster who said Hakeem was more dominant :lol
Shaq was the most dominant player ever, go and rewatch 2000-03, just brutal
Trying to see your point of view, but I can't respect that. Not only did you decide to go with faulty logic, but you even failed to use that logic properly. Seems like a bit of bias but carry on.

[feyki]

An old poster, NugzHeat3, has some great information on this topic in this thread. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=297975)


www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8517970&postcount=37

That post is just amazing .

[sdot_thadon]

Yes I do consider that as well. I don't think the NBA portion of his career would have him in the top 20.

As for Shaq/Wilt, I think it's more a case of Wilt being the originator, or Shaq 1.0. Obviously his records are off the charts and many will never come close to being duplicated( granted it's era specific, but I won't discredit on that basis). I think, when it comes to that top 5 category, you're getting into the very minute, and subjective, details. Where do you have Wilt and Shaq in your personal list?
I actually meant wilt and lebron. But shaq is right there in the mix. You always have this cloud of out with the guys wilt faced and shaq being a newer version. But then you could easily argue wilt was a far more rounded player. That's why I usually place him above shaq, I value 2 way play a bit.

[Lebron23]

Trying to see your point of view, but I can't respect that. Not only did you decide to go with faulty logic, but you even failed to use that logic properly. Seems like a bit of bias but carry on.


Kobetarded Logic. Kobestans are the dumbest fans on the planet

[feyki]

Agreed, and I had one hell of a hard time putting Hakeem at 11. He's always been in my top ten. Ask me again next week, and he's probably there lol. But who would you personally take out to make room for him? If I had to guess, Kobe?

Ehehe :D .

If prime/peak wise , answer is Kobe . But Kobe has great career too . I don't know much :D .

[pastis]

Ehehe :D .

If prime/peak wise , answer is Kobe . But Kobe has great career too . I don't know much :D .

are you a Dirk fan? if yes, why do you have a red bar? nobody should give a Dirk fan a red bar (we are so few :()

[feyki]

are you a Dirk fan? if yes, why do you have a red bar? nobody should give a Dirk fan a red bar (we are so few :()

Yes , but i don't know what is red bar :D .

[pastis]

Yes , but i don't know what is red bar :D .

future rep for you :cheers:

[feyki]

future rep for you :cheers:


.d .d :cheers:

[Wade's Rings]

Very good list, and nearly identical to mine except that I have KAJ over Wilt.

Its great seeing another poster rate Shaq accordingly. His value and dominance couldn't be more understated with these garbage media rankings.

I feel Shaq is underappreciated seeing as how he always raised his Game in the Playoffs and being the 2nd best Finals Performer of All-Time means a lot. However him burning bridges with multiple teams and his laziness hurts him as well.

[Harison]

I feel Shaq is underappreciated seeing as how he always raised his Game in the Playoffs and being the 2nd best Finals Performer of All-Time means a lot. However him burning bridges with multiple teams and his laziness hurts him as well.
Thats all true, but Shaq had even more weaknesses. Like FTs (strategy hack a Shaq isnt flattering in the Playoffs, isnt?), or being solid but not elite defensively, thats additional reasons why I rank Hakeem above him - Dream had no such weaknesses, plus he was way more clutch. Its why Dream managed to sweep Shaq in the Finals. Even though their raw stats were comparable, but when it counted the most, Hakeem came through in the clutch and Shaq didnt.

[ArbitraryWater]

are you a Dirk fan? if yes, why do you have a red bar? nobody should give a Dirk fan a red bar (we are so few :()

yea but hes kind of a shit poster

[senelcoolidge]

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Lebron
Kobe
Hakeem
Oscar
West
Moses
Dr.J
Malone
Dirk
Barkley
Garnett
Wade
Baylor
Robinson
Isiah
Mikan
Pippen



Respectable list. I don't agree with everything, but it's a good list. This is a list from someone that knows the game knows the games history. Espn only counts from 1990 on. You putting Wilt at #2 makes it legitimate. People that put Wilt below 3 and that's a stretch their lists are not respectable.

[Dragonyeuw]

Respectable list. I don't agree with everything, but it's a good list. This is a list from someone that knows the game knows the games history. Espn only counts from 1990 on. You putting Wilt at #2 makes it legitimate. People that put Wilt below 3 and that's a stretch their lists are not respectable.

:cheers:

[Wade's Rings]

Thats all true, but Shaq had even more weaknesses. Like FTs (strategy hack a Shaq isnt flattering in the Playoffs, isnt?), or being solid but not elite defensively, thats additional reasons why I rank Hakeem above him - Dream had no such weaknesses, plus he was way more clutch. Its why Dream managed to sweep Shaq in the Finals. Even though their raw stats were comparable, but when it counted the most, Hakeem came through in the clutch and Shaq didnt.

Shaq was clutch as well. I remembered seeing somewhere he had one of the Top 5 4th Averages in the NBA Finals in '95, he lead the '00 Playoffs in 4th Quarter scoring IIRC, and I'm sure with more research I could find stats with him showing up in 4th Quarters.

I do agree with the Free Throws being a weakness but Shaq would make some when they mattered.

[Harison]

Shaq was clutch as well. I remembered seeing somewhere he had one of the Top 5 4th Averages in the NBA Finals in '95, he lead the '00 Playoffs in 4th Quarter scoring IIRC, and I'm sure with more research I could find stats with him showing up in 4th Quarters.

I do agree with the Free Throws being a weakness but Shaq would make some when they mattered.
I'm not saying Shaq was bad in the clutch, I said Hakeem was more clutch than Shaq. :cheers:

Speaking of last minutes of the games, I remember Phil sometimes benching Shaq because he was a liability at FTs.

Thats why when I rank players, I take into account not just their raw stats (and Shaq was arguably GOAT in the post), but all the circumstances and the context, as well as their mentality. Therefore I find it surprising that a lot of people rank Shaq higher than Hakeem, or even have Dream outside of Top10, its just weird.

[FKAri]

Tim Duncan. A highly intelligent leader.

Tim Duncan? That is not Bill Russell's archetype at all. Bill Russell was raw as phuck. He was a fluid athlete but he had no scoring instincts and he had no ingrained muscle memory moves. Ran like a deer but looked stiff trying to perform any move (a sign of someone who has great natural coordination but nothing ingrained from a young age). Also, unlike Duncan, Russell was an exceptional athlete.