Who has had the most help? Duncan, Kobe, or LeBron?

[warriorfan]

:confusedshrug:

[IllegalD]

:confusedshrug:

Player/supporting cast-wise: LeBron with his collusion superteams.

Coaching-wise: Duncan. Getting to play under the GOAT coach and the GOAT coaching tree for his entire career.

[Funktion]

And Brons not done yet

[Jacks3]

Duncan easily. Dude completely fell off a cliff as a player and has been nothing more than a very good role-player for years and his team continues to stack up 60+ win seasons, puts up historic playoff runs and regular seasons, and have zero problems winning even when he's having mediocre games or missing games.

It's insane. And his fans continue to find new ways to credit him for things that have nothing do with him and everything to do with having the best coach in history and the best front-office in basketball.

[JohnMax]

For example curry vs bran.

Currys weakness is defense, so you have to compliment him with defensive players like iguodala and bugot.

Brans weakness is clutch scoring, so you have to find that kind of player.

Its easy to find role players like iguodala because defense is the easiest aspect of this game. Meanwhile "clutch scoring/making tough shots" is the most difficult to learn so only the best of the best could do it(i.e. curry/kobe) aka superstars. So to build around bran, you need superstars aka curry but you only need iguodala for curry. For me the better player is the player thats easier to build and since you only need role players for curry while superstars for bran then curry>bran. And thats the reason why bran has to go to wade or irving to win 2 while kobe only need gasol to win the same.

[zeerghit]

:confusedshrug:

first of all kobe never, never was main man, without shaq hes top 12 draft pick team, without gasol 1st round exit.

[Cocaine80s]

For example curry vs bran.

Currys weakness is defense, so you have to compliment him with defensive players like iguodala and bugot.

Brans weakness is clutch scoring, so you have to find that kind of player.

Its easy to find role players like iguodala because defense is the easiest aspect of this game. Meanwhile "clutch scoring/making tough shots" is the most difficult to learn so only the best of the best could do it(i.e. curry/kobe) aka superstars. So to build around bran, you need superstars aka curry but you only need iguodala for curry. For me the better player is the player thats easier to build and since you only need role players for curry while superstars for bran then curry>bran. And thats the reason why bran has to go to wade or irving to win 2 while kobe only need gasol to win the same.
Thats strange because Lebron is leading or atleast top 3 in clutch scoring this season

[warriorfan]

first of all kobe never, never was main man, without shaq hes top 12 draft pick team, without gasol 1st round exit.

:biggums:

now I see why your whatifsports team sucks so badly

you don't know shit about basketball

:roll:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Duncan easily. Dude completely fell off a cliff as a player and has been nothing more than a very good role-player for years and his team continues to stack up 60+ win seasons, puts up historic playoff runs and regular seasons, and have zero problems winning even when he's having mediocre games or missing games.

It's insane. And his fans continue to find new ways to credit him for things that have nothing do with him and everything to do with having the best coach in history and the best front-office in basketball.

Don't do drugs, kids.

:oldlol:

[zeerghit]

:biggums:

now I see why your whatifsports team sucks so badly

you don't know shit about basketball

:roll:

NEVER

btw we played only 1 game lol.

[feyki]

1 - Kobe ;

Played with Shaq along 6 years . And plus played with Pau along 6 years . One top 60 and one top 10 all time primes players .

2 - Duncan ;

First with Admiral in 99 . And then after since 2004 to 2008 end of his prime , he had great teams .

3 - Lebron ;

He had great teams along five years ( between 09 to 13 ) . And good teams since his rookie years .

12 > 6 > 5

[Spurs5Rings2014]

1 - Kobe ;

Played with Shaq along 6 years . And plus played with Pau along 6 years . One top 60 and one top 10 all time primes players .

2 - Duncan ;

First with Admiral in 99 . And then after since 2004 to 2008 end of his prime , he had great teams .

3 - Lebron ;

He had great teams along five years ( between 09 to 13 ) . And good teams since his rookie years .

12 > 6 > 5

You can't just go by how many good teams each had, but also the level of talent they had those years. Top 5 and top 10 players for 5 years is better than top 20 and top 40 players for 6.

:confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Duncan
Kobe
Lebron


they are also in order of who got the most out of what they had.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Duncan
Kobe
Lebron


they are also in order of who got the most out of what they had.

Yep. The guy who played with 1 top 20-25 player and a couple top 60+ players all either past their prime or before it while in his prime is the guy who had more help. Not the guys who played with top 10/20 players of all time while also in their prime. Sounds legit.

:facepalm

[k0kakw0rld]

:confusedshrug:
Curry

[Smoke117]

Curry

[k0kakw0rld]

Yep. The guy who played with 1 top 20-25 player and a couple top 60+ players all either past their prime or before it while in his prime is the guy who had more help. Not the guys who played with top 10/20 players of all time while also in their prime. Sounds legit.

:facepalm
:applause:

[tpols]

Yep. The guy who played with 1 top 20-25 player and a couple top 60+ players all either past their prime or before it while in his prime is the guy who had more help. Not the guys who played with top 10/20 players of all time while also in their prime. Sounds legit.

:facepalm

popovich system >


Not only that but Manu/Parker is basically the perimeter version of Pau/Odom, although peak parker is easily better than Odom and peak Manu is at worst equal to Pau. Yea Kobe's got Shaq.. but Duncan had D-Rob plus what he has today in kawhi/aldridge/green/west etc, and has never had a true down year in terms of help in his entire career. Part of that is Duncans fault for being the best teammate in this bunch hence why I said he got the most out of all the help he had.

[GrapeApe]

Duncan easily. Dude completely fell off a cliff as a player and has been nothing more than a very good role-player for years and his team continues to stack up 60+ win seasons, puts up historic playoff runs and regular seasons, and have zero problems winning even when he's having mediocre games or missing games.

It's insane. And his fans continue to find new ways to credit him for things that have nothing do with him and everything to do with having the best coach in history and the best front-office in basketball.

None of this "greatest coach ever" or "best front-office" talk started until after Duncan arrived. He was the cornerstone for everything. What was Pop before Duncan? How many NBA titles did the Spurs organization win? Duncan is obviously not the player he once was, but all of the success enjoyed by the Spurs organization dates back to the day that Duncan set foot on an NBA court. It's nearly impossible to overstate the impact he's had on that franchise. He deserves every bit of the credit he receives, even if more indirect in recent years.

[JohnFreeman]

Duncan, and it's really not close

[IllegalD]

Duncan, and it's really not close

It's close.

On one hand you have LeBron who is on his 2nd collusion SuperTeam with potentially more to come down the line.

On the other hand you have Duncan, who hasn't been the best player on his own team in over a decade and has been carried for his last two rings. Not to mention having the GOAT coach and the GOAT organization to back him.

[SouBeachTalents]

Curry, only player in NBA history to have a player coming off the bench win FMVP. Not to mention Dray n Klay will both be All-NBA this year

[tpols]

Curry, only player in NBA history to have a player coming off the bench win FMVP. Not to mention Dray n Klay will both be All-NBA this year

dray and klay are nowhere near shaq and pau, or wade, bosh, kyrie or manu, parker, d-rob, kawhi. And competition is stacked against curry as its ever been against the other three.

[IllegalD]

Curry, only player in NBA history to have a player coming off the bench win FMVP. Not to mention Dray n Klay will both be All-NBA this year

Don't forget David Lee, who was still a 20 and 10 player before he got benched and had his minutes reduced.

So that's FOUR All-star level teammates for Curry's championship ring. (Klay, Draymond, Iggy, Lee) :eek:

[GrapeApe]

It's close.

On one hand you have LeBron who is on his 2nd collusion SuperTeam with potentially more to come down the line.

On the other hand you have Duncan, who hasn't been the best player on his own team in over a decade and has been carried for his last two rings. Not to mention having the GOAT coach and the GOAT organization to back him.

Averaging 22/12/3/3 on 52% with a 27 PER is being carried to a ring?

He's led the Spurs in PER every year of his career up until this season.

[G0ATbe]

Shaq

vs

Wade
Bosh
Love
Irving
Shaq

vs

Parker
Leonard
Robinson
Ginobili
Aldridge

Kobe shouldnt even be in this discussion but I cant decide between Duncan and LeBald. They've both had an insane amount of help.

[feyki]

You can't just go by how many good teams each had, but also the level of talent they had those years. Top 5 and top 10 players for 5 years is better than top 20 and top 40 players for 6.

:confusedshrug:

Well ..

In primes ( 01-12 Kobe , 99-08 Duncan , 06-15 Lebron )

Top 5 is 10 points , Top 10 is 7 Points , Top 20 is 5 points , Top 75 is 2 Points ;

Kobe ,

01 - 14 ( shaq top 5 , Horry an Fish top 75 )
02 - 14 ( shaq top 5 , Horry and Fish top 75
03 - 10 ( shaq top 5 )
04 - 12 ( shaq top 5 , fisher top 75 )
05 - 0
06 - 2 ( Odom top 75 )
07 - 2 ( Odom top 75 )
08 - 7 ( Gasol top 20 , Odom top 75 )
09 - 9 ( Gasol top 20 , Odom @nd Ariza top 75 )
10 - 11 ( Gasol top 10 Odom and Artest top 75 )
11 - 14 ( Gasol top 20 , Bynum top 20 , Artest and Odom top 75 )
12 - 9 ( Bynum top 20 , Gasol and Artest top 75 )

Total = 104

Lebron ,

06 - 4 ( , Ilga and Hughes top 75 )
07 - 8 ( Gibson , Ilga , Varejao , Hughes top 75 )
08 - 6 ( Ilga , West , Ben top 75 )
09 - 8 ( Ilga , West , Mo , Varejao top 75 )
10 - 6 ( Shaq , Mo , Jamison top 75 )
11 - 15 ( Wade top 5 , Bosh top 20 )
12 - 16 ( Wade top 10 , Bosh top 20 , Battier and Chalmers top 75 )
13 - 14 ( Wade top 10 , Bosh top 20 , Ray Ray top 75 )
14 - 4 ( Wade top 75 , Bosh top 75 )
15 - 6 ( Tristian , Mozgov , JR top 75 )

Total = 87

Duncan ,

99 - 10 ( Admiral top 5 )
01 - 5 ( Admiral top 20 )
02 - 6 ( Admiral , Parker , Bowen top 75 )
03 - 8 ( Admiral , Parker , Bowen , Gino top 75 )
04 - 10 ( Gino and Tony top 20 )
05 - 16 ( Gino top 10 , Tony top 20 , bruce and horry top 75 )
06 - 12 ( gino and tony top 20 , bowen top 75 )
07 - 14 ( Parker top 10 , gino top 20 , bowen top 75 )
08 - 7 ( parker top 20 , bowen top 75 )

Total = 87

[alexthegod]

All three are great and all three had help as no one can do it alone.

The answer is Tim Duncan and its not even close. His teams have won 50 or more games every season he's been in the league. That is due to the best front office during his era consistently keeping a winning supporting cast around him. He had 30 years of Tony Parkers and Manu Ginoblis. 6 years of David Robinson, 5 years of Kawhi Leonard, Lamarcus Aldridge this year. Tons of great role players, Sean Elliot, Avery Johnson, Robert Hory, Bruce Bowen, George Hill, Danny Green, Boris Diaw, Patty Mills.

If that wasnt enough he had arguably the best coach for this entire career. Its absolutely amazing what they have been able to to considering the restraints of the cap system. If it wasn't for the Lakers they probably win two or three more championships as well.

[Cold soul]

This has to go to Duncan but he is the ultimate teammate and leader the best teammate you could possible ask for if he's on your team.

[Keno]

kobe, duncan, lebron in that order. no explanation needed.

[Smoke117]

dray and klay are nowhere near shaq and pau, or wade, bosh, kyrie or manu, parker, d-rob, kawhi. And competition is stacked against curry as its ever been against the other three.

lol...the overall quality of the Warriors is way...way better than any of the teams you are trying to compare Curry's help to. You are talking about Dray and Klay...while they have Harrison Barnes...a guy who would be a star on almost any other team. He's better than Wiggins that's for sure and he's averaging 20ppg on the Twolves. The Lakers, the Heat...they were never STACKED...they were TOP HEAVY. The Warriors ARE stacked...three all star players, an all star level player in Barnes, and guys like Bogut, Iggy, Livingston...and they aren't stacked...okay buddy. The warriors ALWAYS have a quality player at any given position...they are by far the most stacked team of all time.

[warriorfan]

lol...the overall quality of the Warriors is way...way better than any of the teams you are trying to compare Curry's help to. You are talking about Dray and Klay...while they have Harrison Barnes...a guy who would be a star on almost any other team. He's better than Wiggins that's for sure and he's averaging 20ppg on the Twolves. The Lakers, the Heat...they were never STACKED...they were TOP HEAVY. The Warriors ARE stacked...three all star players, an all star level player in Barnes, and guys like Bogut, Iggy, Livingston...and they aren't stacked...okay buddy. The warriors ALWAYS have a quality player at any given position...they are by far the most stacked team of all time.

This post makes zero sense until you realize the person who wrote it is a raging alcoholic.

[rmt]

It's close.

On one hand you have LeBron who is on his 2nd collusion SuperTeam with potentially more to come down the line.

On the other hand you have Duncan, who hasn't been the best player on his own team in over a decade and has been carried for his last two rings. Not to mention having the GOAT coach and the GOAT organization to back him.

2006-07 Regular Season
Duncan - All-Star, All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 1st team, 4th in MVP voting
Parker - All-Star, tied with Carmelo, Billups for 15th in MVP voting

Duncan 20 pts 10.6 rebs 3.4 asst 2.4 blks 54.6%FG 111ORtg 94 DRtg 13 WS 7.1 BPM 6.3 VORP
Parker 18.6 pts 5.5 asst 52%FG 112 ORtg 102 DRtg 9.6 WS 2.7 BPM 3 VORP

2006-07 Playoffs
Duncan 22.2 pts 11.5 rebs 3.3 asst 3.1 blks 52.1%FG 111 ORtg 98 DRtg 3.3 WS 7.2 BPM 1.7 VORP
Parker 20.8 pts 5.8 asst 48%FG 103 ORtg 107 DRtg 1.6 WS 0.5 PBM 0.5 VORP

[AirBonner]

Curry and it's not even close.

[tpols]

lol...the overall quality of the Warriors is way...way better than any of the teams you are trying to compare Curry's help to. You are talking about Dray and Klay...while they have Harrison Barnes...a guy who would be a star on almost any other team. He's better than Wiggins that's for sure and he's averaging 20ppg on the Twolves. The Lakers, the Heat...they were never STACKED...they were TOP HEAVY. The Warriors ARE stacked...three all star players, an all star level player in Barnes, and guys like Bogut, Iggy, Livingston...and they aren't stacked...okay buddy. The warriors ALWAYS have a quality player at any given position...they are by far the most stacked team of all time.


harrison barnes ? you must be trollin me.


Warriors outside of curry are a less talented version of the mid 00s spurs or current spurs outside of Duncan. Manu is the type of dude who could lead a revolution against team USA, straight heart and intelligence thats on another level than any warrior player not named curry.. and the spurs have always had great depth.. so that points moot.

[FKAri]

harrison barnes ? you must be trollin me.


Warriors outside of curry are a less talented version of the mid 00s spurs or current spurs outside of Duncan. Manu is the type of dude who could lead a revolution against team USA, straight heart and intelligence thats on another level than any warrior player not named curry.. and the spurs have always had great depth.. so that points moot.

The Warriors are one of the best put together teams in decades. They have great talent and unreal synergy which takes them to an unreal level.

[tpols]

The Warriors are one of the best put together teams in decades. They have great talent and unreal synergy which takes them to an unreal level.

their FO and management is definitely spurs like in the way they articulately build.. in contrast to kobe and bron's FO's who always just tried to stack quick talent in desperation.

[Gileraracer]

LeCollude

[bobopenguin]

Bron, and it's still going.

[Smoke117]

harrison barnes ? you must be trollin me.


Warriors outside of curry are a less talented version of the mid 00s spurs or current spurs outside of Duncan. Manu is the type of dude who could lead a revolution against team USA, straight heart and intelligence thats on another level than any warrior player not named curry.. and the spurs have always had great depth.. so that points moot.

You are just talking that bullshit now...congratulations! :applause:

[Moonbeam]

Based on aging curves for expected OWS and DWS during seasons in which they have averaged at least 24 MPG:

Duncan: 42.11 expected WS
Kobe: 36.18 expected WS
LeBron: 36.06 expected WS

[Nash]

1.Kobe, the only one that was literally a sidekick to another dominant superstar FMVP.

2. Duncan, help as in a bunch of great teammates, fantastic organization and an amazing coach that helped him compete for all of his career.

3.Lebron, first 7 years he had no real help. Then got Wade and Bosh but was still the only one of the 3 that was the best player on his team.

[Kobe_6/8]

Who had to work the hardest for their rings?

1. LeBron - Drafted by his hometown sports failure Cleveland. Never had a true 1a/1b tandem until he played with Wade in Miami.

2. Kobe - Drafted onto a legendary franchise with Most Dominant Ever (Shaq). Phil Jackson came to the team shortly after. Pau Gasol was a big 2 way help.

3. Duncan - Drafted onto a team with a HOF Center and HOF coach. Always had help with D-Rob/Parker/Ginobili.

[coin24]

1.Kobe, the only one that was literally a sidekick to another dominant superstar FMVP.

2. Duncan, help as in a bunch of great teammates, fantastic organization and an amazing coach that helped him compete for all of his career.

3.Lebron, first 7 years he had no real help. Then got Wade and Bosh but was still the only one of the 3 that was the best player on his team.


:roll: :roll:

Ok pauk :lol

[MoBe1Kanobi]

Basically look at it like this

If this was 2k

Kobe played with

Shaq(96-04) : 98ovr
Pau(07-14): 88ovr
Kwame(04-08): 64ovr(too generous)
Horry(98-03): 71ovr(being generous)
Rick Fox(98-03): 68ovr(being generous)
LamarOdom(05-12): 85ovr
Bynum: 84ovr
D-Fish: 55ovr(being very generous)
Sasha: 70ovr
Farmar: 74ovr
OVERALL TEAM CORE AVERAGE: 75.7 OVERALL
Other players were in for only maybe 1-2 year stretches in Ariza, Artest, Shannon Brown, Vlad Radmonovic, Mbenga, Powell, Dwight, Kareem Rush, Turiaf, etc. and the overall quality of these interchangeables on a combined 2k scale is id say 75 overall relative for being surrounding parts.
TEAM CORE: 75.7 OVR, ADDITIONAL HELP: 75 OVR

LBJ played with:
D Wade: 90 ovr
C Bosh: 87ovr
Kyrie: 88ovr
K Love: 80ovr(should be higher)
Prime Mo Will: 81 ovr
Mike Miller: 76ovr
Ilgauskas: 80ovr
Larry Hughes: 75ovr(see KLove)
Ray Ray: 78 ovr
OVERALL TEAM CORE AVG: 81.6 OVERALL
Other players in for 1-2 yr stretches were JR Smith, Shumpert, Mozgov, Antwan Jamison, Shaq, JJ Hickson, Dellavadova, Varejao, Eric Snow, Delonte West:oldlol: Sasha Pavlovic, Drew Gooden etc. and the overall quality of these interchangeables on a combined 2k scale is id say 90 overall relative for being surrounding parts.
TEAM CORE: 81.6 OVR, ADDITIONAL HELP: 90 OVR

Duncan played with:
Tony Parker: 88 ovr
Ginobili: 87 ovr
D-Rob: 90 ovr
Kawhi: 89 ovr
Bruce Bowen: 80 ovr
Avery Johnson: 76 ovr
Sean Elliot: 77ovr
Danny Green: 80 ovr
George Hill: 78 ovr
Boris Diaw: 80 ovr
TEAM CORE AVG: 82.5
Other players in for stretches were Tiago Splitter, Horry, Malik Rose, Stephen Jackson, Finley, Brent Barry, Bonner, Mario Elie, Patty Mills, Steve Kerr, Derek Anderson, etc. and the overall quality of these interchangeables on a combined 2k scale is id say 86 overall relative for being surrounding parts.

TEAM CORE: 82.5 OVR, ADDITIONAL HELP: 86 OVR

I cant even front as a Kobe fan this looks pretty objective...

:biggums:

I really thought before this it would have been much closer and I wouldnt have been surprised to find Kobe's teammates overall rating to be the highest due to how the media pounds the idea of "SHAQSHAQSHAQ" when it comes to the Kobe narrative

Anyways kudos to Kobe Bean for winning 5 rings despite having SIGNIFICANTLY less help than any of his superstar contemporaries :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[T_L_P]

It's close.

On one hand you have LeBron who is on his 2nd collusion SuperTeam with potentially more to come down the line.

On the other hand you have Duncan, who hasn't been the best player on his own team in over a decade and has been carried for his last two rings. Not to mention having the GOAT coach and the GOAT organization to back him.

In 07 Duncan average 22/13/3/3, had the 3rd most Win Shares in the NBA and the highest RAPM.

Saying he wasn't SA's best player is ludicrous enough, but now he was carried? If that's the case Kobe was literally carried to all of his rings, because the gap between 07 Duncan and SA's 2nd best player is bigger than Kobe/Pau was in 09-10. :oldlol:

[keep-itreal]

LOL @ anyone saying Duncan.

Duncan had to go up against prime shaq and prime Kobe by himself.

Meanwhile Lebron can handpick any teammates he wants and bunch of free agents go to Kobe's team because it's the Lakers

and LOL @ Gregg Popovich being GOAT coach. He wouldn't be jack shit without Duncan

[MoBe1Kanobi]

Basically look at it like this

If this was 2k

Kobe played with

Shaq(96-04) : 98ovr
Pau(07-14): 88ovr
Kwame(04-08): 64ovr(too generous)
Horry(98-03): 71ovr(being generous)
Rick Fox(98-03): 68ovr(being generous)
LamarOdom(05-12): 85ovr
Bynum: 84ovr
D-Fish: 55ovr(being very generous)
Sasha: 70ovr
Farmar: 74ovr
OVERALL TEAM CORE AVERAGE: 75.7 OVERALL
Other players were in for only maybe 1-2 year stretches in Ariza, Artest, Shannon Brown, Vlad Radmonovic, Mbenga, Powell, Dwight, Kareem Rush, Turiaf, etc. and the overall quality of these interchangeables on a combined 2k scale is id say 75 overall relative for being surrounding parts.
TEAM CORE: 75.7 OVR, ADDITIONAL HELP: 75 OVR

LBJ played with:
D Wade: 90 ovr
C Bosh: 87ovr
Kyrie: 88ovr
K Love: 80ovr(should be higher)
Prime Mo Will: 81 ovr
Mike Miller: 76ovr
Ilgauskas: 80ovr
Larry Hughes: 75ovr(see KLove)
Ray Ray: 78 ovr
OVERALL TEAM CORE AVG: 81.6 OVERALL
Other players in for 1-2 yr stretches were JR Smith, Shumpert, Mozgov, Antwan Jamison, Shaq, JJ Hickson, Dellavadova, Varejao, Eric Snow, Delonte West Sasha Pavlovic, Drew Gooden etc. and the overall quality of these interchangeables on a combined 2k scale is id say 90 overall relative for being surrounding parts.
TEAM CORE: 81.6 OVR, ADDITIONAL HELP: 90 OVR

Duncan played with:
Tony Parker: 88 ovr
Ginobili: 87 ovr
D-Rob: 90 ovr
Kawhi: 89 ovr
Bruce Bowen: 80 ovr
Avery Johnson: 76 ovr
Sean Elliot: 77ovr
Danny Green: 80 ovr
George Hill: 78 ovr
Boris Diaw: 80 ovr
TEAM CORE AVG: 82.5
Other players in for stretches were Tiago Splitter, Horry, Malik Rose, Stephen Jackson, Finley, Brent Barry, Bonner, Mario Elie, Patty Mills, Steve Kerr, Derek Anderson, etc. and the overall quality of these interchangeables on a combined 2k scale is id say 86 overall relative for being surrounding parts.

TEAM CORE: 82.5 OVR, ADDITIONAL HELP: 86 OVR

I cant even front as a Kobe fan this looks pretty objective...



I really thought before this it would have been much closer and I wouldnt have been surprised to find Kobe's teammates overall rating to be the highest due to how the media pounds the idea of "SHAQSHAQSHAQ" when it comes to the Kobe narrative

Anyways kudos to Kobe Bean for winning 5 rings despite having SIGNIFICANTLY less help than any of his superstar contemporaries

[choppermagic]

1. Duncan. Pop machine over there in SA. Duncan sits out plenty of games just to rest and SA just keep chugging along. Amazing system they have of finding role players and maximizing their potential. Which is why they have stayed strong for so many dam years! This is not a knock on Duncan, but props to SA for being able to manage and field such a competitive team every year.

2. Lebron - stacked hand picked teams for pretty much his entire career. He even gets to pick his coaches. Every dam day, people are always talking about what more help Lebron needs on his teams. It's incredible.

3. Kobe - Shaq and GOAT coach for periods of his career but absolute garbage in other years.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Duncan
Curry
LeBron
Kobe

[inclinerator]

curry

[aj1987]

1. Duncan. Pop machine over there in SA. Duncan sits out plenty of games just to rest and SA just keep chugging along. Amazing system they have of finding role players and maximizing their potential. Which is why they have stayed strong for so many dam years! This is not a knock on Duncan, but props to SA for being able to manage and field such a competitive team every year.

2. Lebron - stacked hand picked teams for pretty much his entire career. He even gets to pick his coaches. Every dam day, people are always talking about what more help Lebron needs on his teams. It's incredible.

3. Kobe - Shaq and GOAT coach for periods of his career but absolute garbage in other years.
Are you retarded? Kobe had Shaq and Gasol/Odom for 10+ seasons. LeBron had Wade/Bosh and Love/Irving for 6 seasons. Heck, Kobe had prime/peak Shaq for 8 seasons.

[72-10]

In terms of actually winning championships, it's Kobe, since Shaq was the reason he won his first three rings. Duncan has always been the best player clearly on every team he's played on, particularly in the postseason except for maybe one championship run.

[ShawkFactory]

It's close.

On one hand you have LeBron who is on his 2nd collusion SuperTeam with potentially more to come down the line.

On the other hand you have Duncan, who hasn't been the best player on his own team in over a decade and has been carried for his last two rings. Not to mention having the GOAT coach and the GOAT organization to back him.
Over a decade?

:facepalm

[knicksman]

Ill go with quality.

Bran
Kobe
Duncan

[hiphopfan777]

:oldlol: :eek:

[pauk]

Duncan & Kobe is a better argument, the only help Lebron had was in Miami, for 4 years and that team never even reached the altitude of some of those Laker/Spurs teams at their best.... Kobe/Duncan had THAT type of help and better for most of their career, Duncan had it for even longer... to a point where they could play bad, be injured or perform as sidekicks and still win championships....

1. Duncan
2. Kobe

*gap*

3. Lebron

[Dresta]

Duncan easily. Dude completely fell off a cliff as a player and has been nothing more than a very good role-player for years and his team continues to stack up 60+ win seasons, puts up historic playoff runs and regular seasons, and have zero problems winning even when he's having mediocre games or missing games.

It's insane. And his fans continue to find new ways to credit him for things that have nothing do with him and everything to do with having the best coach in history and the best front-office in basketball.How can you have the audacity to dance around proclaiming everyone "fans" of certain players (and as if Duncan is the sort of player that attracts player-fans like you), when you're one of the most pathetic and blatant stans in the history of this site?

Not to mention how incredibly idiotic your arguments are. Kobe has had Jerry West (and Kupchak) in the front-office, the deep pockets of Buss, Phil Jackson on the bench, and peak Shaq having playoff runs of 31/15 :oldlol: . Not to mention that he played for the Lakers, which has plenty of advantages in and of itself.


Duncan > Kobe

Now shut up.

[Jacks3]

How can you have the audacity to dance around proclaiming everyone "fans" of certain players (and as if Duncan is the sort of player that attracts player-fans like you), when you're one of the most pathetic and blatant stans in the history of this site?

Not to mention how incredibly idiotic your arguments are. Kobe has had Jerry West (and Kupchak) in the front-office, the deep pockets of Buss, Phil Jackson on the bench, and peak Shaq having playoff runs of 31/15 :oldlol: . Not to mention that he played for the Lakers, which has plenty of advantages in and of itself.


Duncan > Kobe

Now shut up.

How the hell are you gonna call anybody stan? ****ing idiot. :oldlol:

Kobe's "advantages" still aren't as great as having the best coach in history for your entire career, the best front-office ever, outstanding ownership, and the best scouting in the business. Like I said, the Spurs have continued to have zero problems contending even after Duncan completely fell off a cliff. Their offense got MUCH better AFTER they stopped running it through Duncan, and the most dominant Spurs championship team came well after Duncan had left his prime. Those are facts, you ****ing piece of shit.

Now shut up and go away.

[Dresta]

:facepalm

You've just basically reversed my post and repeated it back to me. Stupid, an annoying stan, and without a single original or semi-original thought in that silly little head of yours: impressive.

[3ball]

.
...........................................ALL STAR TEAMMATES




All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Magic:

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Bird:

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Kobe:

Shaq 8
Gasol 5
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
_________________
6 players, 15 appearances = 5/7 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
6 players, 15 appearances = 4/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Kyrie 1
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
5 players, 11 appearances = 2/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with MJ:

Pippen 6
_______________
1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals
.

[pastis]

and now 3ball make the same regarding ALL-nba selections and all-defensive selection, rebounding champion selections etc.

thank you

[warriorfan]

.
...........................................ALL STAR TEAMMATES




All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Magic:

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Bird:

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Kobe:

Shaq 8
Gasol 5
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
_________________
6 players, 15 appearances = 5/7 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
6 players, 15 appearances = 4/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Kyrie 1
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
5 players, 11 appearances = 2/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with MJ:

Pippen 6
_______________
1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals
.


Good criteria.

What makes it even more impressive is that if Pippen never played with Jordan he would of had even fewer All-Star appearances.

[Sakkreth]

Kobe
Duncan
LeBron

It's quite obvious to me.

[pastis]

and now 3ball make the same regarding ALL-nba selections and all-defensive selection, rebounding champion selections etc.

thank you

gogo 3ball

[3ball]

and now 3ball make the same regarding ALL-nba selections and all-defensive selection, rebounding champion selections etc.

thank you
Duncan:

Kawhi - all defense and DPOY
David Robinson - all defense and all-nba
Bruce Bowen - all-defense every year



Kobe:

Shaq/Bynum/Gasol - luxury interior presences
Eddie Jones - all-defense

Also had solid defenders Horry, Fisher, Fox, Artest, Ariza, and more



Lebron:

Varejao - all-defense
Wade - all defense and all-nba

Also had all-nba defender Eric Snow, Larry Hughes.. Also Mosgov, Shumpert, Bosh, Birdman

[pastis]

Duncan:

Kawhi - all defense and DPOY
David Robinson - all defense and all-nba
Bruce Bowen - all-defense every year



Kobe:

Shaq/Bynum/Gasol - luxury interior presences
Eddie Jones - all-defense



Lebron:

Varejao - all-defense
Wade - all defense and all-nba

and jordan?

edit: you forgot parker, ginobili as all-nba and ron artest

[3ball]

and jordan?

edit: you forgot parker, ginobili as all-nba and ron artest
Jordan had Pippen as all-nba and all defense.

That's all, except Grant was all-defense for 1 season in 1993, same with Rodman 1 season in 1996

Btw, Kobe also had solid defenders Horry, Fisher, Fox, Artest, Ariza, and more.... Lebron had all-nba defender Eric Snow, Larry Hughes.. Also solid defenders Mosgov, Shumpert, Bosh, Birdman and more

[pastis]

Jordan had Pippen as all-nba and all defense.

That's all, except Grant was all-defense for 1 season in 1993, same with Rodman 1 season in 1996

Btw, Kobe also had solid defenders Horry, Fisher, Fox, Artest, Ariza, and more.... Lebron had all-nba defender Eric Snow, Larry Hughes.. Also solid defenders Mosgov, Shumpert, Bosh, Birdman and more

not to forget tha rodman was consecutive rebound champion

[aj1987]

Jordan had Pippen as all-nba and all defense.

That's all, except Grant was all-defense for 1 season in 1993, same with Rodman 1 season in 1996

Btw, Kobe also had solid defenders Horry, Fisher, Fox, Artest, Ariza, and more.... Lebron had all-nba defender Eric Snow, Larry Hughes.. Also solid defenders Mosgov, Shumpert, Bosh, Birdman and more
Hughes and Snow were never All-Def while playing WITH LeBron. Grant was All-Def for 4 seasons '93-'96.

[Smoke117]

It's good to see 3ball back...for a week or so I almost thought he managed to get a life for himself. What happened you old bastard? You were passing a kidney stone this last week or so?

[3ball]

.
Old MJ carried a bigger load while winning 1997 and 1998 rings than prime Lebron carried while winning 2012 and 2013 rings



..........PROPORTION (%) OF TEAM PTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER ON FLOOR


........................RS......RS 4th.... PO.....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <---- these are links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 34.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 33.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 30.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 33.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 30.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 29.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)




PROPORTION OF TEAM PTS + AST WHILE PLAYER ON FLOOR (proportion of TO not subtracted)


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 69.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 63.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 72.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 62.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 67.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 75.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 75.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 75.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)




PROPORTION OF TEAM PTS + AST WHILE PLAYER WAS ON FLOOR MINUS PROPORTION OF TO'S


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 40.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 51.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 48.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 38.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 52.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 41.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 31.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 45.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 46.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



CLIFFS: Old MJ carried a bigger load while winning his LAST 2 championships than prime Lebron carried while winning his ONLY 2 championships.

(btw, regarding the stats that subtract turnovers - the math works out correctly - for instance, if a team has 5 assists and 5 TO's in the 4th quarter, and Lebron has 1 assist and 1 TO, then he had 20% of his team's assists and 20% of their TO's, so it's a wash)

[Smoke117]

I'm thinking maybe your kids (who can't stand you) took your grand children to visit you and you actually had something to do with your old man time besides post your ****ing nonsense? This is it, yes?

[3ball]

not to forget tha rodman was consecutive rebound champion
Rodman was old in Chicago - he averaged 8 rebounds in 1997 playoffs and wasn't even a starter during 1998 playoffs.

Kobe, Duncan and Lebron had far more help.. That's why MJ carried the larger load (see previous post) and his stats needed to be much better to win his rings.

[aj1987]

I like to spam irrelevant bullshit because I'm a raging homo.
Agreed. :cheers:

[3ball]

.
Old MJ carried a bigger load while winning 1997 and 1998 rings than prime Lebron carried while winning 2012 and 2013 rings



..........PROPORTION (%) OF TEAM PTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER ON FLOOR


........................RS......RS 4th.... PO.....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <---- these are links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 34.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 33.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 30.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 33.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 30.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 29.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)




PROPORTION OF TEAM PTS + AST WHILE PLAYER ON FLOOR (proportion of TO not subtracted)


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 69.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 63.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 72.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 62.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 67.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 75.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 75.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 75.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)




PROPORTION OF TEAM PTS + AST WHILE PLAYER WAS ON FLOOR MINUS PROPORTION OF TO'S


........................ PO.....PO 4th...Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 40.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 51.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 48.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 38.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 52.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 41.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 31.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 45.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 46.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



CLIFFS: Old MJ carried a bigger load while winning his LAST 2 championships than prime Lebron carried while winning his ONLY 2 championships.

(btw, regarding the stats that subtract turnovers - the math works out correctly - for instance, if a team has 5 assists and 5 TO's in the 4th quarter, and Lebron has 1 assist and 1 TO, then he had 20% of his team's assists and 20% of their TO's, so it's a wash)
.

[3ball]

Hughes and Snow were never All-Def while playing WITH LeBron. Grant was All-Def for 4 seasons '93-'96.


Varejao was once, just like Grant was in 1993.

Overall, Lebron had more help and the stats prove it - the stats show that old MJ carried a bigger load while winning rings in 1997 and 1998 than prime Lebron carried while winning rings in 2012 and 2013.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12166181&postcount=72.

[Cleverness]

Kobe 96-2004
Duncan 2005-2009
Kobe 08-10
LeBron 11-13
Duncan 2014
LeBron 2015-

[Smoke117]

...regardless...we all know Jordan had the most help all time besides Curry this season. Amirite, 3ball?

[3ball]

...regardless...we all know Jordan had the most help all time besides Curry this season. Amirite, 3ball?
No, your statement is statistically false.

It's statistical fact that Jordan had the least help, since he had to contribute a higher proportion of his team's points + assists than anyone in history.

When a player must undertake a higher proportion of his team's activities than anyone else, than they're carrying the biggest load and have the least help.

[aj1987]

Varejao was once, just like Grant was in 1993.

Overall, Lebron had more help and the stats prove it - the stats show that old MJ carried a bigger load while winning rings in 1997 and 1998 than prime Lebron carried while winning rings in 2012 and 2013.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12166181&postcount=72.
Grant was All-Def in '96 as well, 3ball.

[3ball]

Grant was All-Def in '96 as well, 3ball.
Not alongside Jordan, just like Snow and Hughes weren't all defense alongside Lebron.

Similarly, Rodman only made 1 all-defensive team alongside Jordan... By the time he joined the Bulls, he was 34 years old with only 1 good year left (1996)... In 1997 playoffs, he only averaged 8 rebounds and didn't even start in 1998 playoffs.

Overall, Lebron had more help and the stats prove it - the stats show that OLD Jordan carried a bigger load while winning rings in 1997 and 1998 than PRIME Lebron carried while winning rings in 2012 and 2013.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12166181&postcount=72

[aj1987]

Not alongside Jordan, just like Snow and Hughes weren't all defense alongside Lebron.
Got it. NVM then. Continue with your ramblings.

[3ball]

Got it. NVM then. Continue with your ramblings.
Overall, Lebron had more help and the stats prove it - the stats show that OLD Jordan carried a bigger load while winning rings in 1997 and 1998 than PRIME Lebron carried while winning rings in 2012 and 2013:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12166181&postcount=72


When a player undertakes a higher proportion of his team's activities than anyone else, than they're carrying the biggest load and have the least help.

[Smoke117]

Not alongside Jordan, just like Snow and Hughes weren't all defense alongside Lebron.

Similarly, Rodman only made 1 all-defensive team alongside Jordan... By the time he joined the Bulls, he was 34 years old with only 1 good year left (1996)... In 1997 playoffs, he only averaged 8 rebounds and didn't even start in 1998 playoffs.

Overall, Lebron had more help and the stats prove it - the stats show that OLD Jordan carried a bigger load while winning rings in 1997 and 1998 than PRIME Lebron carried while winning rings in 2012 and 2013.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12166181&postcount=72

LOL...Grant didn't make hte team...but he was one of the best defensive PF's in the during the Bulls championship run 91-93. Do you eve like basketball or are you just in love with Jordan?...Because apparently to you nobody on the Bulls besides Jordan did a goddamn ****ing positive thing during the yars of his career. You're a ****ing clown and should have a stroke or heart attack...and you are old enough that should happen soon...god willing.

[3ball]

LOL...Grant didn't make hte team...but he was one of the best defensive PF's in the during the Bulls championship run 91-93. Do you eve like basketball or are you just in love with Jordan?...Because apparently to you nobody on the Bulls besides Jordan did a goddamn ****ing positive thing during the yars of his career. You're a ****ing clown and should have a stroke or heart attack...and you are old enough that should happen soon...god willing.
Grant was nothing more than a solid role player - a simple play-finisher and banger inside that EVERY team has.

He was a Tristan Thompson, Marcin Gortat or something like that.. Again, every team has a guy like Horace.

[aj1987]

Overall, Lebron had more help and the stats prove it - the stats show that OLD Jordan carried a bigger load while winning rings in 1997 and 1998 than PRIME Lebron carried while winning rings in 2012 and 2013:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12166181&postcount=72


When a player undertakes a higher proportion of his team's activities than anyone else, than they're carrying the biggest load and have the least help.
I don't give a shit, dude. MJ sucks. Deal with it.

[Smoke117]

Grant was nothing more than a solid role player - a simple play-finisher and banger inside that EVERY team has.

He was a Tristan Thompson, Marcin Gortat or something like that.. Again, every team has a guy like Horace.

So he wasn't one one of the best defensive PF's in the league during that period? You're a ****ing clown...and you know it, I know it, and everyone else does too. Do us all a favor and have a stroke already and end up like Hector Salamanca in a retirement home...after you ring your little bell enough with your dick sucking nonsense we can take it away from you and leave you seething like the bitch you are.

I mean..wtf? You think I don't know about basketball? that I'm some ****ing clown you can run your mouth at? I WAS WATCHING THE BULLS IN THE EARLY 90s and Horace Grant was one of the best defensive pf's in the league in teh early to mid 90s. Jordan didn't' do it all okay...he didn't' WILL the Bulls to championships like you want to think...TEAMS WIN CHAMPIONS...NOT PLAYERS you ****ing mongoloid.

[3ball]

it depends

[CarlosBoozer]

Honestly, it's duncan. He never really had a superstar with him other than admiral but he has had great teammates and coaching throughout his career, of course he helped make his team better but even as a veteran with on and off games, his team is still always great.

[3ball]

So Horace wasn't one one of the best defensive PF's in the league during that period?


There's a lot of parity when we're talking about stickman bigs that just play defense and dunk (D-and-dunk).. Horace was a top 4-10 defensive PF on any given night.. Offensively, he was just a simple dunker - nothing more.

Overall, he was the kind of solid role player that every team has... Every team in the league has one or more "D-and-dunk" bigs who average about 11/8, along the lines of Horace.

Also, I never said Jordan had NO help - I said Jordan had the LEAST help... heck, the stats show that OLD Jordan carried a bigger load while winning rings in 1997 and 1998 than PRIME Lebron carried while winning rings in 2012 and 2013:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12166181&postcount=72


When a player undertakes a higher proportion of his team's activities than anyone else, than they're carrying the biggest load and have the least help.
.

[Smoke117]

There's a lot of parity when we're talking about stickman bigs that just play defense and dunk (D-and-dunk).. Horace was a top 4-10 defensive PF on any given night.. Offensively, he was just a simple dunker - nothing more.

Overall, he was the kind of solid role player that every team has... Every team in the league has one or more "D-and-dunk" bigs who average about 11/8, along the lines of Horace.

Also, I never said Jordan had NO help - I said Jordan had the LEAST help... heck, the stats show that OLD Jordan carried a bigger load while winning rings in 1997 and 1998 than PRIME Lebron carried while winning rings in 2012 and 2013:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12166181&postcount=72


When a player undertakes a higher proportion of his team's activities than anyone else, than they're carrying the biggest load and have the least help.
.


You know you should get into politics...you love to twist your words into making them mean something they don't and I admire that. You are obviously not a daft little bastard,...it's a shame that you spend all this time sucking off some basketball player. *shrug* In the end though....we both know that you run your mouth with nonsense...it's why you've' been banned from every respectable board there is...and are stuck here...with us. I'm not them though...BUT...I like to drink and I like to rage...so I'm stuck here too. You THOUGH are here because your nonsense isn't accepted on any other basketball forum...bitch. (I've been watching a lot of breaking bad)

[Graviton]

You know you should get into politics...you love to twist your words into making them mean something they don't and I admire that. You are obviously not a daft little bastard,...it's a shame that you spend all this time sucking off some basketball player. *shrug* In the end though....we both know that you run your mouth with nonsense...it's why you've' been banned from every respectable board there is...and are stuck here...with us. I'm not them though...BUT...I like to drink and I like to rage...so I'm stuck here too. You THOUGH are here because your nonsense isn't accepted on any other basketball forum...bitch. (I've been watching a lot of breaking bad)
What did you drink Smoke? I bet you gonna feel it tomorrow...or today technically.

[Smoke117]

What did you drink Smoke? I bet you gonna feel it tomorrow...or today technically.

I don't need to drink to despise 3ball..he manages to accomplish that feat all on his own.

[Graviton]

I don't need to drink to despise 3ball..he manages to accomplish that feat all on his own.
You didn't answer the question asshole, WHAT DID YOU DRINK?

[Smoke117]

You didn't answer the question asshole, WHAT DID YOU DRINK?

That shit they drank in big trouble in little China...I feel kind of invincible...

[Mr. Jabbar]

Lecollude.

Not to mention he did it in the east.

[Lebronxrings]

lol @ the kobe stans acting like lebron and duncan had the best help. :oldlol:

its kobe and it isn't even close. Played with a top 10 player of all time, a top 20, the greatest coach of all time, hof teammates, etc.

[eliteballer]

Kobe had ZERO help during a lot of his PEAK as a player(05,06,07).

That counts a LOT.

[Cold soul]

Kobe had ZERO help during a lot of his PEAK as a player(05,06,07).

That counts a LOT.

Yup exactly. Kobe did get great help years 08-10 and 00-04 so it even its self out but 05-07 Kobe was in middle of his prime years.

[knicksman]

lol @ the kobe stans acting like lebron and duncan had the best help. :oldlol:

its kobe and it isn't even close. Played with a top 10 player of all time, a top 20, the greatest coach of all time, hof teammates, etc.

Bran played with 4 superstars (Kyrie is a rising superstar)and they were all in their primes. While kobe only played with 1

[Straight_Ballin]

What does it matter who had the most help unless you put it into context? That context being, what was each man able to accomplish with the help that he had? We know the ring counts, and when you start comparing a guy that only has 2 rings as the 1st/2nd option to guys that have 5 or more as the 1st/2nd option, it becomes a pointless discussion.

Instead of trying to justify why a player only has 2 rings, just accept the fact that he only has 2 rings. It's analagous to these bron stans still living in their mothers basement. Instead of trying to justify why you made shitty decisions in your life that led you to that point, just accept the fact that you are at that point and man up.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/60118650.jpg