Check out how competitive High School New York/Bronx basketball was in 1973:

[CavaliersFTW]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we2DFccESao

Holy smokes those teams look elite, both teams field good athletes at every position and the ball moves up and down the floor FAST and there is constant defensive effort that never lets up. One of the hotspots most of you probably already know of highly competitive high school basketball in the 60's and 70's was New York. As was Indiana and Philadelphia. Hoping more games like these get uploaded in the future, IHSAA has put up tons of old Indiana games. Yet to see anything from Philly yet.

[FKAri]

Randomly forwarded to a point in the video and got this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we2DFccESao&t=29m20s

[senelcoolidge]

This was so much better than the ASG and most of what the nba puts out today. Fast pace, competitive, and there was no 3pt shot. You would think it would be boring without the 3pt, but it's not. Obviously NBA players have more talent, but it's the effort and competitiveness.

[jongib369]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we2DFccESao

Holy smokes those teams look elite, both teams field good athletes at every position and the ball moves up and down the floor FAST and there is constant defensive effort that never lets up. One of the hotspots most of you probably already know of highly competitive high school basketball in the 60's and 70's was New York. As was Indiana and Philadelphia. Hoping more games like these get uploaded in the future, IHSAA has put up tons of old Indiana games. Yet to see anything from Philly yet.
Illinois has a shit ton of games, I'm sure you've seen the evolution of the game thread

[FreezingTsmoove]

I just went to the psal boro championships on sunday its still competitive man

Shamorie Ponds is going to the nba

[warriorfan]

Randomly forwarded to a point in the video and got this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we2DFccESao&t=29m20s

:roll:

[jongib369]

:roll:
Like that never happens today you dolt :lol

[jongib369]

http://cms.bsu.edu/-/media/WWW/DepartmentalContent/Library/ArchivesSpecialColl/Stoeckel/African%20Americans/MuncieHSBasketball.jpg


The H. V. Porter Films: 1932 to 1936 IHSA Boys Basketball Tournaments
Introduction (2:50, near half court shots were "common")
https://youtu.be/3Xutjhk-KD8

Footage
https://youtu.be/79JcZkpw_SY

1948
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8ECSPlQbMY

1950
Illinois https://youtu.be/M7o2wdyeews

1952
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24bC8x7nEdI

1954
Indiana https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ1_4YCGiLw (hoosiers)

1955
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1XNpdVWMvk

Maine/Vermont https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYfOuTV13lU Boston Garden

Indiana https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFHtjoYXGbY

Robertson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF_Z-tmzEpg

IHSAA 1955 Championship- Oscar Robertson (https://youtu.be/tSJNHd3zRos)

1956

Oscar Robertson 39 points, 7 reb, 6a (1956 IHSAA Championship Full Highights)
Indiana https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_p2SoUk1YE **

Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuUZ6euz50Q

1957
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMVLTiH5-GQ

1958
Indiana https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LunL_fLCEc

1960
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdOySPn_Jmk

Virgina https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjIz0z-1j1E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oOvCIS6K7s

Ohio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJj5LKIyWkE

The Basics of Basketball, 1960's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiaJygbwC0Q

1961
Indiana https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfVaTA42WBY

Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u4e69Jo85M


1962
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtUUmpFhUFU

1964
North Carolina https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIUNQTSGrt4

1965
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQOV4W71twE

1966
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrBDU_7XTYU

1967
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvdbS_cNyE0

Minnesota https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfj3Rj-6ff4

North Carolina https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBWPPqq8bDY

1968
Texas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuzgBApCPiE

Lincoln High Basketball Team
Send off
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jXD1Sp3nLI

Championship Game Highlights
https://youtu.be/uWfdCjJmVxE?t=1m40s

Welcome Home Celebration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N98H7b70XI

1970
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmoqbR9N5_k

Pennsylvania https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e2ob8hpYiI

North Carolina https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR0cFpYUst4

Indiana https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juDhjhrRwvo

Kentucky https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPNpDTJanLk

1972
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePc19x0418o

New York https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT4PTrJ6xg0 Peekskill High School Basketball Team Footage

Indiana https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeCWO2puQwQ

1974
California https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQjdrnvZCFc

1975
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R3op2LECIw

1976
Kentucky https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0af0TGoaOfg

1977
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj9TDZVBLTw

Magic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-KRCIjAPoA

1978
Massachusetts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTjlDmu8wbw ***

1979
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFsIuzHricI

1985
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys5ujaPJa0k

1987
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh6oF4W0axI

1988
McDonald's High School All American Game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYzrC4LKao

Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qTeA3YYoaw

1990
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8pCcWqhZtk

1992
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5UN96fbhJk

1994
Garnett https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPX4QClR9EY

1995
Illinois https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-DQeVJvKTE

1996
Kobe https://youtu.be/sbMOfywm-Mg


(A lot more to come, possibly including normal girls highschool basketball, girls 6 on 6, and guys college)

Bonus
1956
Minnesota Community College https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRlsvDNvybY

Iowas 6 on 6 highschool girls basketball

1948 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C3HZfhM8EM

1956 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qryC_tSsRdw

1969 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebZ3c0JmjI4

1982 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHu8QeVbeLc

There's one for every year if you search for it in Illinois. 50s and up

[jongib369]

1954 IHSAA State Championship Milan v.s Muncie Central


https://youtu.be/aZ1_4YCGiLw

[jstern]

That was 43 years ago.

What's cool to know is that Kobe and KG have played against guys as old as those high schoolers.

And now they are playing against young talent.

[jongib369]

https://youtu.be/wtUUmpFhUFU

Illinois 1962

[tpols]

This was so much better than the ASG and most of what the nba puts out today. Fast pace, competitive, and there was no 3pt shot. You would think it would be boring without the 3pt, but it's not. Obviously NBA players have more talent, but it's the effort and competitiveness.

the most interesting thing is how offensive players always turn their backs to the basket while dribbling outside, always looking for a way inside with posting and passing over the top.

Nowadays offensive players dont have to go back to basket that far out since they can pull up from there.. and just the threat of doing that makes a defender reluctant to press and lay hands.


I think thats the biggest reason for the decrease in physicality. Its easy to keep your hands all over somebody when they keep turning their back and side to you. When its straight up.. contest this, or get burned.. you cant just grab a guy from behind, thats never been allowed.

[jongib369]

https://youtu.be/ePc19x0418o

Illinois 1972, Class AA

Thanks for your upload Btw cavs. That's a game that escaped my search/viewing.
I'm posting random games at this point for your viewing, I'll see if I happened to bookmark any ones you might enjoy watching once I'm off mobile

[Cocaine80s]

You could literally find 10 random people at a local gym that would smash these guys

[Akhenaten]

the most interesting thing is how offensive players always turn their backs to the basket while dribbling outside, always looking for a way inside with posting and passing over the top.

Nowadays offensive players dont have to go back to basket that far out since they can pull up from there.. and just the threat of doing that makes a defender reluctant to press and lay hands.


I think thats the biggest reason for the decrease in physicality. Its easy to keep your hands all over somebody when they keep turning their back and side to you. When its straight up.. contest this, or get burned.. you cant just grab a guy from behind, thats never been allowed.

Excellent points, the dribblers turning their backs virtually every time is what immediately struck me also. It gives the game a frenetic feel, even the rhythms they dribbled and moved with is jittery and nervous looking. Crazy to be able to see how far the game has come

[jongib369]

1955 IHSAA State Championship: Indianapolis Crispus Attucks 97, Gary Roosevelt 74
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWgXd7i1iIo) Black teams


1970 IHSAA State Semifinal #1: Carmel 71, Loogootee 62
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjo4bA3aNBM)

1970 IHSAA State Semifinal #2: East Chicago Roosevelt 90, Muncie Central 75
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L5cRB5BnRg)

1971 IHSAA State Semifinal #2: East Chicago Washington 102, Floyd Central 88
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqI3xgd0Aho)

[jstern]

the most interesting thing is how offensive players always turn their backs to the basket while dribbling outside, always looking for a way inside with posting and passing over the top.

Nowadays offensive players dont have to go back to basket that far out since they can pull up from there.. and just the threat of doing that makes a defender reluctant to press and lay hands.


I think thats the biggest reason for the decrease in physicality. Its easy to keep your hands all over somebody when they keep turning their back and side to you. When its straight up.. contest this, or get burned.. you cant just grab a guy from behind, thats never been allowed.

I see many younger players, in fact all who can't pull up still facing up, and never turning their back. And I see many past players who were great shooters from past eras turning their back to the basket.

Hand checking is not allowed today, so the reason why players aren't all over the offensive player, causing the player to turn their back is not because they can't pull up and shoot a jumper, but because they're not allowed to.

I have this game on tape from March 1997. During one possession Pippen turned up the hand checking on I think Charlie Ward, and as a result Charlie had to bring the ball down court while turning his back to Scottie, to protect the ball.

Now on to today's players in the playground. Many of them play for their high school team, most of them can't shoot, and I assume most HS players from the 70s couldn't shoot that well because their human. But I don't see them turning their back to the defender just because they can't pull up.

I'm very balanced in the way I dribble. I have great control moving naturally with the ball, so I can dribble very casually with my back turned to my opponent, but all these kids in the playground, they would feel very uncomfortable in that position. Turning their head away from the ball.

So more so than the defense being in played, it has more to do with style and influence.

[tpols]

Hand checking is not allowed today, so the reason why players aren't all over the offensive player, causing the player to turn their back is not because they can't pull up and shoot a jumper, but because they're not allowed to.
.

this is a chicken and egg scenario.. you're saying that offensive players cant move forward without turning their backs to a defender and spinning away from contact.. I'm saying there's no need to move forward, when you can simply stay put, jump, and shoot.. and the threat of that is enough to keep defenders more mildly back unless they want to get blown by. Wasnt really focusing on role players or scrub PG's trying to bring the ball up the court against all time great defenders (like the pippen charlie ward ?? example).. moreso what elite shooters/playmakers from this era are capable of.

[BigNBAfan]

Why do you always speed up videos man? You take away any point you could possibly make

[jstern]

the most interesting thing is how offensive players always turn their backs to the basket while dribbling outside, always looking for a way inside with posting and passing over the top.

Nowadays offensive players dont have to go back to basket that far out since they can pull up from there.. and just the threat of doing that makes a defender reluctant to press and lay hands.


I think thats the biggest reason for the decrease in physicality. Its easy to keep your hands all over somebody when they keep turning their back and side to you. When its straight up.. contest this, or get burned.. you cant just grab a guy from behind, thats never been allowed.

It's a very complicated topic to express, because there are so many subtleties. But to boil it all down, I think it's a matter of influence and style.

Since we're talking about regular people playing, not NBA players. In this current era, people just like to try and do fancy dribbles. That's the style, that's the way most will dribble. But while it might get them excited and confident screaming, "OOOOOHHHH," because they think they're doing something, they're still not balanced in the way they dribble to feel comfortable turning their backs to the basket and turning their head away from the ball. (Balance is being able to move naturally with the ball, in the same way you would move if you didn't have it. The ball is almost irrelevant.)

Of course that's not to say that players in the 70s were better, because they're just the same dumb humans and they're just assimilating to the style.

One last thing, I see players in the video bringing the ball down while turning their backs. You can't say that they're doing that because they can't pull up and shoot.

It's a matter of style. My introduction to basketball comments on the internet was from a teenager commenting on a Magic Johnson video that Magic wouldn't be able to play in the current era, that Kobe Bryant will just take the ball away from him at will. And all that is based on the way he saw Magic dribbling the ball. He was dribbling in the style of these guys. It wasn't ghetto, it didn't look impressive. Meanwhile, a few minutes earlier I saw this incredible clip of Magic Johnson, dribbling down the court at full speed in a fast break, while looking back and to his left. He was forcing his neck back and to the left, and then did this incredible past to one of his running at full speed teammate, without even looking. And that teenager was saying that Magic which such ability would get the ball taken away every time he had it in his hand, as if Magic was a little kid. And all based on the fact that he likes to dribble with his back turned.

That's why a person has to be careful when judging things from before they were born. These High School players in this clip probably play basketball many hours per day, everyday, and are very comfortable playing the way they play. Yet you have someone commenting here that they dribble nervously, as if they just picked up a basketball the for the first time the day before. Just like that teenager said about Magic, their opinion is based on very limited knowledge.

[CavaliersFTW]

Why do you always speed up videos man? You take away any point you could possibly make
It's not my upload dipshit. Your stupidity is what takes away any point you could possibly make.

[jongib369]

Why do you always speed up videos man? You take away any point you could possibly make
Have anything non trolling to add?

[jongib369]

It's not my upload dipshit

:lol

:cheers:

[CavaliersFTW]

:lol

:cheers:
It takes a special kind of moron to think a 40 minute high school game is "sped up" to 1 hour and 48 minute broadcast without a single commercial break anyways. The hell does that guy think, that the game went on for 3 hours!?

[jongib369]

It's a very complicated topic to express, because there are so many subtleties. But to boil it all down, I think it's a matter of influence and style.

Since we're talking about regular people playing, not NBA players. In this current era, people just like to try and do fancy dribbles. That's the style, that's the way most will dribble. But while it might get them excited and confident screaming, "OOOOOHHHH," because they think they're doing something, they're still not balanced in the way they dribble to feel comfortable turning their backs to the basket and turning their head away from the ball. (Balance is being able to move naturally with the ball, in the same way you would move if you didn't have it. The ball is almost irrelevant.)

Of course that's not to say that players in the 70s were better, because they're just the same dumb humans and they're just assimilating to the style.

One last thing, I see players in the video bringing the ball down while turning their backs. You can't say that they're doing that because they can't pull up and shoot.

It's a matter of style. My introduction to basketball comments on the internet was from a teenager commenting on a Magic Johnson video that Magic wouldn't be able to play in the current era, that Kobe Bryant will just take the ball away from him at will. And all that is based on the way he saw Magic dribbling the ball. He was dribbling in the style of these guys. It wasn't ghetto, it didn't look impressive. Meanwhile, a few minutes earlier I saw this incredible clip of Magic Johnson, dribbling down the court at full speed in a fast break, while looking back and to his left. He was forcing his neck back and to the left, and then did this incredible past to one of his running at full speed teammate, without even looking. And that teenager was saying that Magic which such ability would get the ball taken away every time he had it in his hand, as if Magic was a little kid. And all based on the fact that he likes to dribble with his back turned.

That's why a person has to be careful when judging things from before they were born. These High School players in this clip probably play basketball many hours per day, everyday, and are very comfortable playing the way they play. Yet you have someone commenting here that they dribble nervously, as if they just picked up a basketball the for the first time the day before. Just like that teenager said about Magic, their opinion is based on very limited knowledge.
Holy shit this.

I've got a friend who plays basketball, knows more about the game than I do from a plays standpoint. Played in high school, GREAT defender, lanky etc etc. He always joked about my hook being an inferior shot, and that "there must be a reason no one does it today". I practiced it a lot, and despite the fact I dribble like someone who just picked up the ball, my hook was solid.

"Maybe it is still useful" he ended up saying after I drained a few in a row on him. Despite being a track athlete, able to long jump 24 feet, VERY fast etc....He couldn't do shit to stop my hook. If I'm in the motion of it, it's too late. What I need to work on though is setting it up, if you get me before I'm in motion you can swipe it out of my hands.

I try putting my back to the defender, which works out better for me than just going forward, but I still get swiped

Luckily I've got long ass arms, good anticipation, and have a knack for rebounding. Scoring I'd be useless if not set up by a screen to get open, or with deep position with my back to the basket. With tight D I can't do shit going forward. Going backwards though? it's more natural to me, because thats the way I like to play

[Duffy Pratt]

You could literally find 10 random people at a local gym that would smash these guys

In 1975, our high school team scrimmaged against Canarsie High School in Brooklyn, one of the elite teams in New York on the same level as DeWitt Clinton in this game. There were a bunch of guys from Canarsie in the stands making fun of their team, who were wiping the floor with us.

I asked their coach after the scrimmage about how he got such a good team together. He pointed to the guys in the stands and said he could take any five of them, and they would probably beat his team on any given day. But, he also said that he couldn't trust them to show up every day, to stay off of drugs, to stay out of jail, and to not get killed. So he settled for kids who weren't as talented, but who he could depend on.

So yeah, even then, you could probably pull ten random kids out of their gyms and field a team that would beat them on a given day.

[Duffy Pratt]

the most interesting thing is how offensive players always turn their backs to the basket while dribbling outside, always looking for a way inside with posting and passing over the top.

Nowadays offensive players dont have to go back to basket that far out since they can pull up from there.. and just the threat of doing that makes a defender reluctant to press and lay hands.


I think thats the biggest reason for the decrease in physicality. Its easy to keep your hands all over somebody when they keep turning their back and side to you. When its straight up.. contest this, or get burned.. you cant just grab a guy from behind, thats never been allowed.

You put your body between the ball and the defender to protect the ball. You have more of a need to do this when you can't carry the ball on every dribble. The change in style came because they stopped enforcing the palming rule.

[plowking]

What is it with a few on this forum that love to pretend as if there is parity between basketball now and 40 years ago?

It isn't close.

[CavaliersFTW]

What is it with a few on this forum that love to pretend as if there is parity between basketball now and 40 years ago?

It isn't close.
You don't think those teams look elite?

[plowking]

You don't think those teams look elite?

No. The basketball clearly isn't on the level of today's ball.

It is fine to watch, but I can tell it isn't up to today's standard. They'd get wiped off the floor.

Same way I can tell the Sixers are a bunch of great basketball players, but the Spurs are just that much better.

[jongib369]

In 1975, our high school team scrimmaged against Canarsie High School in Brooklyn, one of the elite teams in New York on the same level as DeWitt Clinton in this game. There were a bunch of guys from Canarsie in the stands making fun of their team, who were wiping the floor with us.

I asked their coach after the scrimmage about how he got such a good team together. He pointed to the guys in the stands and said he could take any five of them, and they would probably beat his team on any given day. But, he also said that he couldn't trust them to show up every day, to stay off of drugs, to stay out of jail, and to not get killed. So he settled for kids who weren't as talented, but who he could depend on.

So yeah, even then, you could probably pull ten random kids out of their gyms and field a team that would beat them on a given day.
Thanks for joining insidehoops! Look forward to hearing your opinions/stories from that era.

Clinton Twp. vs Michigan City Elston, 1962
(https://youtu.be/6PHVqnv8d-E) Color, no sound, only 7 minutes.

1966 IHSAA State Championship: Michigan City Elston 63, Indianapolis Aresenal Technical 52
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3kZy5olZ1c) (Black and white, sound, full game)

Quick question, do you think either of these teams could compete against the teams you were on?

[CavaliersFTW]

No. The basketball clearly isn't on the level of today's ball.

It is fine to watch, but I can tell it isn't up to today's standard. They'd get wiped off the floor.

Same way I can tell the Sixers are a bunch of great basketball players, but the Spurs are just that much better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqSy2HDDotY

Sorry, not seeing it :confusedshrug:

[Akhenaten]

Yet you have someone commenting here that they dribble nervously, as if they just picked up a basketball the for the first time the day before.

not what I said, you either have poor reading comprehension or youre letting your emotions get the best of you. I said it gives that LOOK, obviously I'm referring to aesthetics :facepalm

[jongib369]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqSy2HDDotY

Sorry, not seeing it :confusedshrug:
Here's another for you to compare

Hilary Clintons, and my old High School class of 1979 VS 2010. She only went there for a year in the 60s, before that she was at Maine East a school down the street from me. Harrison Ford grew up here so this is obviously an ALPHA talent pool (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_from_Park_Ridge,_Illinois).

79
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFsIuzHricI


12
https://youtu.be/4ULj3c_8WTY?t=21m31s

Which team is better?

Park Ridge- Population 37,839

"Maine South sponsors teams for both boys and girls in basketball, cross country, golf, gymnastics, lacrosse, soccer, swimming & diving, tennis, track & field, volleyball, and water polo. Boys are also able to compete in baseball, football, and wrestling, while girls are able to compete in badminton, cheerleading, and softball.[33]

Maine South competes in the Central Suburban League South Division. In state competition, Maine South competes in the largest potential school classes in each sport sponsored by the Illinois High School Association.

The following teams have won IHSA sponsored State Championship Tournaments:[34]

Basketball (boys): 1978–79
Football: 1995–96, 2000–01, 08–09, 09–10, 10-11 8A (Top 10 in nation)
Swimming & Diving (girls): 1975–76
Volleyball (boys): 2005–06

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...idge,_Illinois

[jongib369]

Updated, with a game I know to be varsity

[jstern]

1955 IHSAA State Championship: Indianapolis Crispus Attucks 97, Gary Roosevelt 74
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWgXd7i1iIo) Black teams


1970 IHSAA State Semifinal #1: Carmel 71, Loogootee 62
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjo4bA3aNBM)

1970 IHSAA State Semifinal #2: East Chicago Roosevelt 90, Muncie Central 75
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L5cRB5BnRg)

1971 IHSAA State Semifinal #2: East Chicago Washington 102, Floyd Central 88
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqI3xgd0Aho)

I'm watching the high school game from 1955 and what I found amazing is that it's the 44th annual tournament. The video is so old, yet back then the tournament was so old. That's a lot of history.

The 1955 players must have felt so modern compared to the people in their late 50s early 60s who played in the original tournament. And they probably were.

[jongib369]

I'm watching the high school game from 1955 and what I found amazing is that it's the 44th annual tournament. The video is so old, yet back then the tournament was so old. That's a lot of history.

The 1955 players must have felt so modern compared to the people in their late 50s early 60s who played in the original tournament. And they probably were.
A lot don't realize how big basketball was even back then. People make it sound as if it was hardly organized in the 60s, let alone being played in most high schools since the 10s/20s.

I've watched hours of womens 6on6 in Iowa...A silent game in 1947 had about 7,200 in attendance..A game in 1948 had a woman who came from a family of well known players that went back generations... Check these out and compare. The rules stayed strict throughout its existence

Under [I]rules enacted in 1934:

Each team played six players at a time, three offense/forwards and three defense/guards. (The 6 on 6 wasn

[CavaliersFTW]

A lot don't realize how big basketball was even back then. People make it sound as if it was hardly organized in the 60s, let alone being played in most high schools since the 10s/20s.

I've watched hours of womens 6on6 in Iowa...A silent game in 1947 had about 7,200 in attendance..A game in 1948 had a woman who came from a family of well known players that went back generations... Check these out and compare. The rules stayed strict throughout its existence

Under rules enacted in 1934:

Each team played six players at a time, three offense/forwards and three defense/guards. (The 6 on 6 wasn’t new, but the roles of the players had been shifted.)
Each player could play only on half of the court. The offense/forwards only played offense on one half of the court and the defense/guards only played defense on the other half of the court when the other team was on offense.
An offensive player could only dribble two times before she had to pass or shoot and she only had three seconds to make that decision. This rule made for fast-paced games.
After one team would make a basket, a referee would quickly take the ball and pass it to the other ref at half court, who would hand it to one of the offensive players on the other team to re-start play.
If the offensive team missed and the other team got the rebound, those offensive players would press or try to keep the other team’s defensive players from getting the ball to half court for the transition pass to the offense. Like the offensive players, a defensive player could only dribble two times before having to pass the ball.
These were the rules that were in place in the 1950’s during Maynard’s run to glory. In 1941 the guards were encouraged and coached to play physical, and were taught how to aggressively steal the ball, tie up the ball, and block shots.The game was very physical, competitive and exciting.


1952 Iowa Girls State Basketball Championship: Reinbeck 61, Monona 55
(https://youtu.be/dxgQhycPYrU?t=55s)

1968 Girls State Championship: Union-Whitten 113, Everly 107 (OT)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM6bKXx-d_s)

1982 State Championship: Estherville 71, Des Moines East 70
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHu8QeVbeLc)

1993 Iowa Girls State Basketball Championship: Hubbard-Radcliffe 85, Atlantic 66
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0XaxvYhg04)
My Grandma on my moms side played basketball. I'm not sure for who, but it was Cleveland/Akron area and I don't think it was just pickup I'm pretty sure she was on a team for either a school or some form of league. I'll have to get details. But this would have been in the early 40's. She broke her nose playing.

[jongib369]

My Grandma on my moms side played basketball. I'm not sure for who, but it was Cleveland/Akron area and I don't think it was just pickup I'm pretty sure she was on a team for either a school or some form of league. I'll have to get details. But this would have been in the early 40's. She broke her nose playing.
That's awesome! Would love to hear more about it.

Btw, here are some clips of Russell, Lucas, Chamberlain, and Baylor from 1962. Don't recall seeing a couple clips myself, some it I have...But I don't remember every damn clip you've posted so who knows :lol


https://youtu.be/7fnzE-XXELY?t=3m28s

Put the time at the few NBA clips they have, the ones of Lucas is before that. it's 1962

[Pointguard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we2DFccESao

Holy smokes those teams look elite, both teams field good athletes at every position and the ball moves up and down the floor FAST and there is constant defensive effort that never lets up. One of the hotspots most of you probably already know of highly competitive high school basketball in the 60's and 70's was New York. As was Indiana and Philadelphia. Hoping more games like these get uploaded in the future, IHSAA has put up tons of old Indiana games. Yet to see anything from Philly yet.

Clinton was my zoned High School til like 4th grade. Nate Archibald went to Clinton just three years before this video. At the time of this video, he was the only player ever to lead the league in scoring and assist (yeah, that crazy 34 and 11 year -shot very close to 50%. Archibald stayed coming back to the neighborhood and giving us free tickets to the games til the later part of the 90's - might still be going on. It was far from being the best school for ball but probably had city wide recognition at that time. Rucker tournaments were already established which were only about 10 mins drive South from Clinton.

[Pointguard]

It's a very complicated topic to express, because there are so many subtleties. But to boil it all down, I think it's a matter of influence and style.

Since we're talking about regular people playing, not NBA players. In this current era, people just like to try and do fancy dribbles. That's the style, that's the way most will dribble. But while it might get them excited and confident screaming, "OOOOOHHHH," because they think they're doing something, they're still not balanced in the way they dribble to feel comfortable turning their backs to the basket and turning their head away from the ball. (Balance is being able to move naturally with the ball, in the same way you would move if you didn't have it. The ball is almost irrelevant.)

Of course that's not to say that players in the 70s were better, because they're just the same dumb humans and they're just assimilating to the style.

One last thing, I see players in the video bringing the ball down while turning their backs. You can't say that they're doing that because they can't pull up and shoot.

It's a matter of style. My introduction to basketball comments on the internet was from a teenager commenting on a Magic Johnson video that Magic wouldn't be able to play in the current era, that Kobe Bryant will just take the ball away from him at will. And all that is based on the way he saw Magic dribbling the ball. He was dribbling in the style of these guys. It wasn't ghetto, it didn't look impressive. Meanwhile, a few minutes earlier I saw this incredible clip of Magic Johnson, dribbling down the court at full speed in a fast break, while looking back and to his left. He was forcing his neck back and to the left, and then did this incredible past to one of his running at full speed teammate, without even looking. And that teenager was saying that Magic which such ability would get the ball taken away every time he had it in his hand, as if Magic was a little kid. And all based on the fact that he likes to dribble with his back turned.

That's why a person has to be careful when judging things from before they were born. These High School players in this clip probably play basketball many hours per day, everyday, and are very comfortable playing the way they play. Yet you have someone commenting here that they dribble nervously, as if they just picked up a basketball the for the first time the day before. Just like that teenager said about Magic, their opinion is based on very limited knowledge.
Lots of good points in all that you said. Back then the physicality of the game meant they could be right up on you. And that everybody pressed so having a guy on your hip meant you could account for one defender. Back at the time of this video you were worried that a player as quick as Tiny could blow past you moreso than you worried about the jumpshot, TPOLs. My father told me it was Doctor J and Gervin (Larry Kenan, George McGinnis, the Hawk and Spencer Haywood all shared the same attributes as Doc and sure enough my dad was right - you see a well developed face up game) because of their big hands and long first steps that we first really see a refined face up game or the evolution of Earl Monroe's creativity with penetration (he said Marcus Haynes was so far ahead of his time too, as he saw the Trotters play serious ball).

Isiah Thomas was the one who I saw and I thought changed that whole thing where trapping and bodying up was about to be doomed. He made getting close to him look so bad that the refs had to call it. He and Magic made you pay hard for traps because they were smart, fast and made that right pass. There is that eerie film of a very young Magic, about 12 years old, pushing an imaginary defenders arms off of him from handchecking him bringing the ball upcourt. It was such a look into the past and the future at the same time - its really strange to see that clip.

[jongib369]

Lots of good points in all that you said. Back then the physicality of the game meant they could be right up on you. And that everybody pressed so having a guy on your hip meant you could account for one defender. Back at the time of this video you were worried that a player as quick as Tiny could blow past you moreso than you worried about the jumpshot, TPOLs. My father told me it was Doctor J and Gervin (Larry Kenan, George McGinnis, the Hawk and Spencer Haywood all shared the same attributes as Doc and sure enough my dad was right - you see a well developed face up game) because of their big hands and long first steps that we first really see a refined face up game or the evolution of Earl Monroe's creativity with penetration (he said Marcus Haynes was so far ahead of his time too, as he saw the Trotters play serious ball).

Isiah Thomas was the one who I saw and I thought changed that whole thing where trapping and bodying up was about to be doomed. He made getting close to him look so bad that the refs had to call it. He and Magic made you pay hard for traps because they were smart, fast and made that right pass. There is that eerie film of a very young Magic, about 12 years old, pushing an imaginary defenders arms off of him from handchecking him bringing the ball upcourt. It was such a look into the past and the future at the same time - its really strange to see that clip.

Link?

[Pointguard]

Link?
Hopefully tonight I will be able to find it. I'm sure others here seen it. Ironically, it has to be dated around '74.

There is a documentary about Magic on YouTube and his HS clips in the '70's look as good as anybody's today as his passing game is still favorable to anybody's today.

[Pointguard]

No. The basketball clearly isn't on the level of today's ball.

It is fine to watch, but I can tell it isn't up to today's standard. They'd get wiped off the floor.

Same way I can tell the Sixers are a bunch of great basketball players, but the Spurs are just that much better.
Thats the beauty of certain greats like Bird and Magic. They pass better than anybody now, could do more in the post than anybody now and their game seems more mentally sharp than guys 25 years later. If they could palm, take a full extra step, have more favorable offensive rules, the listed advantages above become more distant than they are already. Wilt too would do alot with those advantages.

This is not a blanket statement, as these are all time greats, but it does stand out in contrast to now.

[Duffy Pratt]

Thanks for joining insidehoops! Look forward to hearing your opinions/stories from that era.

Clinton Twp. vs Michigan City Elston, 1962
(https://youtu.be/6PHVqnv8d-E) Color, no sound, only 7 minutes.

1966 IHSAA State Championship: Michigan City Elston 63, Indianapolis Aresenal Technical 52
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3kZy5olZ1c) (Black and white, sound, full game)

Quick question, do you think either of these teams could compete against the teams you were on?

First off, our team was good but not great. We had two guys who went to college on scholarship, but both at Division 2 schools. Our point guard played Division One, but as a walk on. And our center started for Princeton until he got leukemia. However, we were a very smart team, fairly athletic, and really good shooters. Our point guard, for example shot 94% from the free throw line for the season. I was pretty average for our team and could shoot close to 90% from the line. And both of our best players were all county, one second team all state.

Having said that, I think we would do pretty well against the team from 1962. That was man to man, and those guys were pretty terrible shooters and not particularly disciplined. The 66 clip is different, and I think it would be much closer. Still think we would do pretty well, but much harder to say. Our offense against zone was more sophisticated than what we see here, and we could shoot better.

The good teams we scrimmaged against in 76 and 77, like Canarsie, or Lutheran High School, or St. Dominick's, would all wipe those teams out, as they did to us.

And there was a team on Long Island from 1966 that I saw as a little kid that would have wiped up any of these guys. It was Roosevelt High School, and they had a pretty good guy on their team who they called the Doctor.

[DonDadda59]

There's one for every year if you search for it in Illinois. 50s and up

Damn, that's a treasure trove for any basketball History buff. Repped. :cheers:


the most interesting thing is how offensive players always turn their backs to the basket while dribbling outside, always looking for a way inside with posting and passing over the top.

Nowadays offensive players dont have to go back to basket that far out since they can pull up from there.. and just the threat of doing that makes a defender reluctant to press and lay hands.


I think thats the biggest reason for the decrease in physicality. Its easy to keep your hands all over somebody when they keep turning their back and side to you. When its straight up.. contest this, or get burned.. you cant just grab a guy from behind, thats never been allowed.

You got the order backwards, son. The reason that players on the perimeter back then often back down the length of the court is because of the physicality. You see the same thing if the NBA hadn't outlawed handchecking on the perimeter. The game would be slowed down and guys would have to work much harder to get shots of at the 3. As it stands, guys can move freely up court and get a shot off whenever they want. That's why pace and 3 point shooting have gone way up since the mid-late 90s to the early 00s.

Perfect Example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE)

The Lakers in the 80s were known for their uptempo, open court style play. They face the Bulls post the Bad Boys changing the landscape of the NBA with their physical style... Chicago's physicality ground their attack to a sharp halt. Pippen's full court pressure defense forced Magic to play the way you described above.

[jongib369]

Damn, that's a treasure trove for any basketball History buff. Repped. :cheers:



You got the order backwards, son. The reason that players on the perimeter back then often back down the length of the court is because of the physicality. You see the same thing if the NBA hadn't outlawed handchecking on the perimeter. The game would be slowed down and guys would have to work much harder to get shots of at the 3. As it stands, guys can move freely up court and get a shot off whenever they want. That's why pace and 3 point shooting have gone way up since the mid-late 90s to the early 00s.

Perfect Example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE)

The Lakers in the 80s were known for their uptempo, open court style play. They face the Bulls post the Bad Boys changing the landscape of the NBA with their physical style... Chicago's physicality ground their attack to a sharp halt. Pippen's full court pressure defense forced Magic to play the way you described above.

Thanks! Indiana has a decent amount of games too, especially from the 80s, and 90s...But they Also have a few games from the 40s, 50s, and 60s

Soon I'll be making a College version of the "Evolution of basketball on Film" compilation I made.

https://prohoopshistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/bob-davies-swinging-layup.gif

1938 NIT Championship - Temple Owls v.s. Colorado Buffaloes
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsX9UOF9bN4)


The Kentucky Wildcats defeat Kansas State 1951 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyNw0LujFK8)

NCAA #MarchMoments: Kansas vs. Oklahoma State March 30, 1951 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPOUCK3DTfA)

1951 NC State Villanova (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3MsOOZgjFg) Color

1944: NCAA Champion Utah vs. NIT Champion St. John's Highlights
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnQK_OPlvc0)

Utah vs Duke Basketball 12/28/1959 in color (https://youtu.be/9ovaMR9tYNo) (Love how it looks)

Northwestern Basketball vs. Kansas, 12/7/1957 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBtib-URipY) Wilt

1968 UCLA vs. Houston - Basketball
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mx2tfKyBM8)

[tpols]

Damn, that's a treasure trove for any basketball History buff. Repped. :cheers:



You got the order backwards, son. The reason that players on the perimeter back then often back down the length of the court is because of the physicality. You see the same thing if the NBA hadn't outlawed handchecking on the perimeter. The game would be slowed down and guys would have to work much harder to get shots of at the 3. As it stands, guys can move freely up court and get a shot off whenever they want. That's why pace and 3 point shooting have gone way up since the mid-late 90s to the early 00s.

Perfect Example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE)

The Lakers in the 80s were known for their uptempo, open court style play. They face the Bulls post the Bad Boys changing the landscape of the NBA with their physical style... Chicago's physicality ground their attack to a sharp halt. Pippen's full court pressure defense forced Magic to play the way you described above.

no offense, but hiv magic with an over the hill team way past their prime.. aint the best example for what a GOAT level offense can do to pressure. Traps are broken with passing.. You can try and do it Magic style back to the basket with lots of spins, or you can just break it down by hitting the soft spots that occur due to overcrowding of other areas. And it doesnt have to end at the basket like it did in previous eras.. where physicality really shines. When 4/5 in the starting line up can hit 3s like only shooting specialists could in previous eras, it just opens up a whole other dimension on the court.

[DonDadda59]

Thanks! Indiana has a decent amount of games too, especially from the 80s, and 90s...But they Also have a few games from the 40s, 50s, and 60s

Soon I'll be making a College version of the "Evolution of basketball on Film" compilation I made.

https://prohoopshistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/bob-davies-swinging-layup.gif

1938 NIT Championship - Temple Owls v.s. Colorado Buffaloes
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsX9UOF9bN4)


The Kentucky Wildcats defeat Kansas State 1951 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyNw0LujFK8)

NCAA #MarchMoments: Kansas vs. Oklahoma State March 30, 1951 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPOUCK3DTfA)

1951 NC State Villanova (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3MsOOZgjFg) Color

1944: NCAA Champion Utah vs. NIT Champion St. John's Highlights
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnQK_OPlvc0)

Utah vs Duke Basketball 12/28/1959 in color (https://youtu.be/9ovaMR9tYNo) (Love how it looks)

Northwestern Basketball vs. Kansas, 12/7/1957 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBtib-URipY) Wilt

1968 UCLA vs. Houston - Basketball
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mx2tfKyBM8)

Nice. I'll be on the lookout for the evolution vid. :applause:


no offense, but hiv magic with an over the hill team way past their prime.. aint the best example for what a GOAT level offense can do to pressure.

Magic was a season removed from winning MVP (Finished 2nd to Jordan that season). The Lakers won 58 games and were 5th in offensive rating. They played at a 94 Pace that season. In the Finals, the series was played at a 85.8 Pace. Ground them to a halt.


You can try and do it Magic style back to the basket with lots of spins, or you can just break it down by hitting the soft spots that occur due to overcrowding of other areas.

Which is the point of traps in the back court, to get the ball out of the primary playmaker's hands. Examples:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/VuCFNb.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/et-QNb.gif



And it doesnt have to end at the basket like it did in previous eras.. where physicality really shines. When 4/5 in the starting line up can hit 3s like only shooting specialists could in previous eras, it just opens up a whole other dimension on the court.

That's just it- you don't have to run any fancy traps or full court zones when guys are just looking to shoot/chuck. Just being able to be physical with shooters greatly affects their effectiveness. That's basketball 101 and the reason the NBA eliminate handchecking- to free up perimeter players.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/d7ZkI6.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-08-2015/CQqc9x.gif

As it stands today, perimeter players see little to no pressure outside of the paint. They can literally dribble up to the 3 point line unimpeded and launch as many 3s as their heart desires. That's why more than 55% of Steph's shots come from there (11/gm). James Harden is at 40%, etc.

There's literally nothing defenses can do to put pressure on or affect shooters today.

[sd3035]

All star game defense with WNBA offense :facepalm

[jstern]

Nice. I'll be on the lookout for the evolution vid. :applause:



Magic was a season removed from winning MVP (Finished 2nd to Jordan that season). The Lakers won 58 games and were 5th in offensive rating. They played at a 94 Pace that season. In the Finals, the series was played at a 85.8 Pace. Ground them to a halt.



Which is the point of traps in the back court, to get the ball out of the primary playmaker's hands. Examples:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/VuCFNb.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/et-QNb.gif




That's just it- you don't have to run any fancy traps or full court zones when guys are just looking to shoot/chuck. Just being able to be physical with shooters greatly affects their effectiveness. That's basketball 101 and the reason the NBA eliminate handchecking- to free up perimeter players.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/d7ZkI6.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-08-2015/CQqc9x.gif

As it stands today, perimeter players see little to no pressure outside of the paint. They can literally dribble up to the 3 point line unimpeded and launch as many 3s as their heart desires. That's why more than 55% of Steph's shots come from there (11/gm). James Harden is at 40%, etc.

There's literally nothing defenses can do to put pressure on or affect shooters today.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[iznogood]

You got the order backwards, son. The reason that players on the perimeter back then often back down the length of the court is because of the physicality. You see the same thing if the NBA hadn't outlawed handchecking on the perimeter. The game would be slowed down and guys would have to work much harder to get shots of at the 3. As it stands, guys can move freely up court and get a shot off whenever they want. That's why pace and 3 point shooting have gone way up since the mid-late 90s to the early 00s.

Perfect Example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE)

The Lakers in the 80s were known for their uptempo, open court style play. They face the Bulls post the Bad Boys changing the landscape of the NBA with their physical style... Chicago's physicality ground their attack to a sharp halt. Pippen's full court pressure defense forced Magic to play the way you described above.
You're wrong about this.

The real reason it's much harder to ball pressure ball handlers is the fact that the ball handlers are allowed to carry the ball so much they do, use more picks and shoot better off the dribble.

The video you used is a horrible example and doesn't back up you argument. Pippen doesn't even use his hands to defend Magic, he only uses his body due to his superior lateral quickness. This the exact way defenders defend today, using only their bodies. Had he have to guard somebody like Curry or Kyrie Irving, he'd use his length and quickness, he couldn't pressure them the way he pressured Magic, because he'd get blown by or driven into a series of picks. That's not saying that Pippen couldn't lock down any of the players I mentioned - he could, but not using the same type of defense he used to lock down Magic. Magic wasn't quick enough to blow by and gain any separation. This style doesn't work against somebody who's allowed to dribble the way players today are and has the ability to pull off from deep.

Lastly, but not least important - the defenders in the video OP linked (great find, I enjoyed watching it) are not playing physical defence. They do not pressure the ball and don't reach in and they don't crowd players on the catch, which is a norm today. There's almost none upper body contact. They don't do it because they would get called for a foul. So you're wrong about players turning their back because they are played physical. They are not.