Can we agree on one thing about prime Dwyane Wade?

[RoseCity07]

Just want to know are we all in agreement that what he did in the 2006 NBA Finals is more impressive than anything Kobe or Lebron did in their careers so far?

He was in his 3rd year I think. Miami was down 0-2. They were a quarter away from being down 0-3 and he carried them from the brink of almost certain elimination. The way he played in the 4 wins was god like dominance. His bank shot was cash. The only thing I've seen more automatic was prime Derrick Rose's floater.

Dirk's performance in 2011 WCFs and Finals is the only thing that comes close in the past 15 years.

[34-24 Footwork]

Just want to know are we all in agreement that what he did in the 2006 NBA Finals is more impressive than anything Kobe or Lebron did in their careers so far?

He was in his 3rd year I think. Miami was down 0-2. They were a quarter away from being down 0-3 and he carried them from the brink of almost certain elimination. The way he played in the 4 wins was god like dominance. His bank shot was cash. The only thing I've seen more automatic was prime Derrick Rose's floater.

Dirk's performance in 2011 WCFs and Finals is the only thing that comes close in the past 15 years.

Considering how much you and MILLIONS of others hate Kobe, I would say that Kobe leading his team to the finals and winning 2/3 of them is more impressive. Especially after you said he couldn't do it without Shaq.

Wades performance was incredible though. I still watch the highlights of it .

[BigNBAfan]

I agree that he matched portland's entire franchise success in a single year. So sad

[ralph_i_el]

Wade at his peak was on the highest tier of perimeter players. I'm talking MJ, Kobe, Bron, Bird level

[swagga]

Considering how much you and MILLIONS of others hate Kobe, I would say that Kobe leading his team to the finals and winning 2/3 of them is more impressive. Especially after you said he couldn't do it without a dominant frontline.

Wades performance was incredible though. I still watch the highlights of it .

oops.

[IllegalD]

Just want to know are we all in agreement that what he did in the 2006 NBA Finals is more impressive than anything Kobe or Lebron did in their careers so far?

He was in his 3rd year I think. Miami was down 0-2. They were a quarter away from being down 0-3 and he carried them from the brink of almost certain elimination. The way he played in the 4 wins was god like dominance. His bank shot was cash. The only thing I've seen more automatic was prime Derrick Rose's floater.

Dirk's performance in 2011 WCFs and Finals is the only thing that comes close in the past 15 years.

Now I know you're full of sh*t and renders your original post useless.

Dirk actually had a mediocre Finals by his standards, shooting in the low 40s. Although Dirk was clutch down the stretch in crunch time.

Wade's 2006 Finals is one of the biggest sports travesties in the history of the NBA. Funny how you f*ggots always bring up the "rigged" Lakers/Kings 2002 series, yet Wade literally set RECORDS for FT attempts and got more calls than a prime Michael Jordan.

[choppermagic]

We are NOT in agreement.

The refs were going crazy that series to put him on the line. Wade averaged 18.3 free-throw attempts a game over the last four of the series. That's more than most teams get in total!

[imdaman99]

2006 Mavs did not have Jason Kidd, they had all kinds of problems with explosive SGs. Pretty sure Kobe outscored them through 3 quarters on his own when he came out of the game.

[HOoopCityJones]

How many Freethrows did he average in the Finals that year?

[Smoke117]

Absolutely...though I'm not sure I would consider that his prime yet as he was still developing his game. (post up for instance) Those were the years he was relentless at attacking the basket though.

[Smoke117]

How many Freethrows did he average in the Finals that year?

Kobe stan comes in to talk shit...how surprising. It's not Wade's fault that Kobe is mediocre in the finals.

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobe stan comes in to talk shit...how surprising. It's not Wade's fault that Kobe is mediocre in the finals.

Wade can't even get to a Finals without the most dominant players of his era.

[Dr Seuss]

Kobe stan comes in to talk shit...how surprising. It's not Wade's fault that Kobe is mediocre in the finals.

a wade fan gets defensive when someone asks about FTA per game in the finals... how surprising.

[HOoopCityJones]

a wade fan gets defensive when someone asks about FTA per game in the finals... how surprising.

Exactly. It was a legit question. :facepalm

[BasedTom]

a wade fan gets defensive when someone asks about FTA per game in the finals... how surprising.
lmao. "defensive"

Who are the ones that keep bringing up one of the most widely discredited bullshit claims in recent basketball history? The insecurity level of Kobe/Bran stans is absolutely off the charts.

[Kblaze8855]

People outraged about 24 free throws in games he shoudl have had like 21....at least. Wade shot a lot of free throws because in 2006 and 2007 nobody could guard players like him when they decided to score. Theres a reason Kobe, Lebron, AI, Arenas, Wade, Redd, Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Martin and so on all scored career highs in those years the league was altering its rules and application of them. Wade wasnt gifted bullshit freethrows in a vacuum....he and the rest of the leagues top swingmen were gifted a league that played into their hands and Wade was an otherwordly slasher who played into it at the right time.

He was hardly standing 25 feet away being given free throws for kickout jumpers. He was in the lane taking...and creating contact.

They didnt just assign him a free 20 free throws. The Mavs couldnt guard him. Nobody could guard players like him for a while.

Allen Iverson didnt score 33 a game past his prime by chance....

Wade just took over...and the way the league was calling things....there was nothing the Mavs could do about it.

[swagga]

How many Freethrows did he average in the Finals that year?

wade went against:
josh howard - too slow for wade
jason terry - too small and a bad defender
stackhouse - 31yo, bad defender, washed up
devin harris - 23yo too small and unexperienced
marquis daniels - 3rd year, a plus defender but too slow for wade.

people were exasperated but the reality is the mavs didn't have the personnel to guard wade. add shaq demanding attention from their best post defender and dirk who isn't a plus help defender to this equation and you can understand WHY dwhistle happened.

mavs help defense options:
- stay on shaq and help on wade with dirk, not a good idea as dirk isn't a plus help defender and he couldn't get in early foul trouble
- help on wade and leave shaq with dirk, not a good idea as that would end with an alley oop and one.

So yeah, tough luck, even carlisle couldn't do shit about it.

And wade didn't get more superstar freethrows than kobe or jordan, he got em at the same rate but he benefited from a lack of help defense in the mavs gameplan. With the perimeter rules being what they are, wade's speed and the subpar wing defenders dallas had it was no surprise wade had an absolutely insane series.

reality check tbh.

[RoseCity07]

People outraged about 24 free throws in games he shoudl have had like 21....at least. Wade shot a lot of free throws because in 2006 and 2007 nobody could guard players like him when they decided to score. Theres a reason Kobe, Lebron, AI, Arenas, Wade, Redd, Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Martin and so on all scored career highs in those years the league was altering its rules and application of them. Wade wasnt gifted bullshit freethrows in a vacuum....he and the rest of the leagues top swingmen were gifted a league that played into their hands and Wade was an otherwordly slasher who played into it at the right time.

He was hardly standing 25 feet away being given free throws for kickout jumpers. He was in the lane taking...and creating contact.

They didnt just assign him a free 20 free throws. The Mavs couldnt guard him. Nobody could guard players like him for a while.

Allen Iverson didnt score 33 a game past his prime by chance....

Wade just took over...and the way the league was calling things....there was nothing the Mavs could do about it.

I wonder why the league rewards Harden so much till this day. He's a strong player but some of the calls he gets are absurd. It's legit bullshit because they don't give Harden those calls in the playoffs. So why cater to his style of play in the regular season?

[BoutPractice]

Maybe they couldn't stop him, but they still could - and should - have won.

In most parallel universes starting at the beginning of that infamous fourth quarter, they go up 3-0... and in 99% of those parallel universes where they go up 3-0, they win the series.

Wade, the referees, choking... even with all of those factors they still were more likely to win than to lose looking at pure odds.

This, I suspect, is why the Dallas fans felt cheated. It wasn't really about Wade or the calls. It was about the missed opportunity.

[WayOfWade]

People are always quick to point out free throws, yet can never point out a single one. And even if they did, that's one out of 96 or something like that, literally about 1%. Kblaze summed it up perfectly, people act like Wade was gifted BS FT's when they were almost all from creating contact and were within the rules of the game.

[swagga]

I wonder why the league rewards Harden so much till this day. He's a strong player but some of the calls he gets are absurd. It's legit bullshit because they don't give Harden those calls in the playoffs. So why cater to his style of play in the regular season?

because they are legal. the perimeter rules make it so that every eurostep is unguardable as the offensive player ALWAYS has precedence when going to a spot. harden does this eurostep diagonally into the defender. he just abuses the rules.

it's like KD's rip through move, harden is just very consistent with it.

I agree that the rules are absurd. the calls aren't.

[Dr Seuss]

lmao. "defensive"

Who are the ones that keep bringing up one of the most widely discredited bullshit claims in recent basketball history? The insecurity level of Kobe/Bran stans is absolutely off the charts.

the post was directed to the poster who got upset and accusatory when another poster simply asked how many FT's he averaged a game. that's being "defensive"

context, sweetheart.

[Town's Town]

Just want to know are we all in agreement that what he did in the 2006 NBA Finals is more impressive than anything Kobe or Lebron did in their careers so far?

He was in his 3rd year I think. Miami was down 0-2. They were a quarter away from being down 0-3 and he carried them from the brink of almost certain elimination. The way he played in the 4 wins was god like dominance. His bank shot was cash. The only thing I've seen more automatic was prime Derrick Rose's floater.

Dirk's performance in 2011 WCFs and Finals is the only thing that comes close in the past 15 years.
Dirk's 2011 was more impressive because it didn't require refs.

[Gileraracer]

It was really impressive how many miracle calls he got. Imagine that, 17 free throw attempts for a whole finals series where 3 or 4 games where decided by less than 4 points.

[bdreason]

The Godfather of the FT era. :bowdown:


Now we see players who have really mastered the craft, like James Harden.

[Wade's Rings]

Wade can't even get to a Finals without the most dominant players of his era.

'06 Shaq one of the most dominant players of his era? You're reaching. :roll:

Also, on the Free Throw thing. Kobe shot 96 Free Throws vs the Jazz in the 2008 WCSF..nothing to say there? How about the '01 series where he averaged 15 Free Throws a Game vs the Kings? As a matter of fact in the Game Kobe had 62 through 3 quarters vs the Mavs he shot 25 Free Throws in 3 quarters. Free Throws are never brought up for those performances but when it's Wade, it's the first thing mentioned. :oldlol:

[robby712]

As a Heat fan I feel the need to point out that if you watch the highlights of those Finals you can see that the Mavs just couldn't stop Wade. Just like the Pistons couldn't stop him prior. He was just a player the league back then hadn't seen. Besides some bad calls ( that in a 7 game series are bound to happen especially on a slasher like Wade ) his FT were legit. They just couldn't find a way to stop him. It's not like he didn't hit some huge shots to keep Miami in the game, and not just in that game 3. I believe there is a statement made by Avery Johnson after game 4 in which he says " We haven't found a way to deal with Wade yet". He could have said " I don't know why the refs give those fouls to Wade", but he didn't, and he was the most entitled to do that if that was the case.

[Town's Town]

As a Heat fan I feel the need to point out that if you watch the highlights of those Finals you can see that the Mavs just couldn't stop Wade. Just like the Pistons couldn't stop him prior. He was just a player the league back then hadn't seen. Besides some bad calls ( that in a 7 game series are bound to happen especially on a slasher like Wade ) his FT were legit. They just couldn't find a way to stop him. It's not like he didn't hit some huge shots to keep Miami in the game, and not just in that game 3. I believe there is a statement made by Avery Johnson after game 4 in which he says " We haven't found a way to deal with Wade yet". He could have said " I don't know why the refs give those fouls to Wade", but he didn't, and he was the most entitled to do that if that was the case.
:coleman:

[Goro]

As a Heat fan I feel the need to point out that if you watch the highlights of those Finals you can see that the Mavs just couldn't stop Wade. Just like the Pistons couldn't stop him prior. He was just a player the league back then hadn't seen. Besides some bad calls ( that in a 7 game series are bound to happen especially on a slasher like Wade ) his FT were legit. They just couldn't find a way to stop him. It's not like he didn't hit some huge shots to keep Miami in the game, and not just in that game 3. I believe there is a statement made by Avery Johnson after game 4 in which he says " We haven't found a way to deal with Wade yet". He could have said " I don't know why the refs give those fouls to Wade", but he didn't, and he was the most entitled to do that if that was the case.
Never heard of fines for criticizing refs? He clearly has additional incentive to not blame refs. He also probably doesn't want his players making excuses and wants them focusing on what they do have control over. You really are blinded by being "a Heat fan."

[Wade's Rings]

As a Heat fan I feel the need to point out that if you watch the highlights of those Finals you can see that the Mavs just couldn't stop Wade. Just like the Pistons couldn't stop him prior. He was just a player the league back then hadn't seen. Besides some bad calls ( that in a 7 game series are bound to happen especially on a slasher like Wade ) his FT were legit. They just couldn't find a way to stop him. It's not like he didn't hit some huge shots to keep Miami in the game, and not just in that game 3. I believe there is a statement made by Avery Johnson after game 4 in which he says " We haven't found a way to deal with Wade yet". He could have said " I don't know why the refs give those fouls to Wade", but he didn't, and he was the most entitled to do that if that was the case.

There were about 2-5 bad calls during the series, I remember in Game 5 Harris got called for a foul when he didn't touch Wade and in Game 6 Terry got called for a foul when he barely touched Wade. These 2-5 bad calls didn't decide the series and Wade earned his Free Throws. He got plenty of driving and contact or pump fakes.

[DoctorP]

Agreed with OP

[robby712]

Never heard of fines for criticizing refs? He clearly has additional incentive to not blame refs. He also probably doesn't want his players making excuses and wants them focusing on what they do have control over. You really are blinded by being "a Heat fan."

I ca assure you that I am objective here. I don't care if you believe me or not. The only reason I mentioned I am a Heat fan was because I could say I watched all the games more than once .

[HOoopCityJones]

'06 Shaq one of the most dominant players of his era? You're reaching. :roll:

Also, on the Free Throw thing. Kobe shot 96 Free Throws vs the Jazz in the 2008 WCSF..nothing to say there? How about the '01 series where he averaged 15 Free Throws a Game vs the Kings? As a matter of fact in the Game Kobe had 62 through 3 quarters vs the Mavs he shot 25 Free Throws in 3 quarters. Free Throws are never brought up for those performances but when it's Wade, it's the first thing mentioned. :oldlol:

I'm not trying to penalize Wade for getting to the line but when you start talking about more impressive Finals than two players have ever done like OP is doing, who are both clearly better than him at that, it's good to provide the proper context.

All I did was ask a simple question and half of you Wade stans went on bitch rants maybe because deep down you know there's something to it. :oldlol:

[Wade's Rings]

I'm not trying to penalize Wade for getting to the line but when you start talking about more impressive Finals than two players have ever done like OP is doing, who are both clearly better than him at that, it's good to provide the proper context.

This makes no sense. So because Kobe & Bron are better than Wade, he can't have a better Finals than them? :facepalm


All I did was ask a simple question and half of you Wade stans went on bitch rants maybe because deep down you know there's something to it. :oldlol:

As soon as Wade's '06 Finals are mentioned the first thing brought up are Free Throws(proven wrong) especially by you Kobe stans but when the Heat comes at Kobe shooting Free Throws it's deflections :oldlol:

[Goro]

I ca assure you that I am objective here. I don't care if you believe me or not. The only reason I mentioned I am a Heat fan was because I could say I watched all the games more than once .
That is probably for the best. Either way, your point about Avery is silly and invalid.

[sportjames23]

Just want to know are we all in agreement that what he did in the 2006 NBA Finals is more impressive than anything Kobe or Lebron did in their careers so far?

He was in his 3rd year I think. Miami was down 0-2. They were a quarter away from being down 0-3 and he carried them from the brink of almost certain elimination. The way he played in the 4 wins was god like dominance. His bank shot was cash. The only thing I've seen more automatic was prime Derrick Rose's floater.

Dirk's performance in 2011 WCFs and Finals is the only thing that comes close in the past 15 years.


Oh shit, shots fired at both the Lebron Family AND Kobe Army! :eek:

RoseCity with NO ****s to give. :oldlol:

[Optimus Prime]

:no:

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1321811/JOEY-CRAWFORD.gif

[Vragrant]

What people forget about in that series is the Mavs dumb strategy of intentionally fouling Shaq any time he touched the ball in scoring position. Sure, they were non shooting fouls, but it put the Mavs in the penalty early in the quarter.

Once that happened the game would open up even more for Wade. That's why people always say that nobody was allowed to touch Wade in that series. Well you're damned right because the Mavs were always in foul trouble!!

[theaussieguy]

everyone knows this series was the most blatant rig job in NBA history

[GrapeApe]

everyone knows this series was the most blatant rig job in NBA history

Yet had Dallas made critical free throws they would have won the series. The NBA didn't do a very good job of rigging if they're putting the Mavs on the line with a chance to ice the series.

[Young X]

'06 Shaq one of the most dominant players of his era? You're reaching. :roll:

Also, on the Free Throw thing. Kobe shot 96 Free Throws vs the Jazz in the 2008 WCSF..nothing to say there? How about the '01 series where he averaged 15 Free Throws a Game vs the Kings? As a matter of fact in the Game Kobe had 62 through 3 quarters vs the Mavs he shot 25 Free Throws in 3 quarters. Free Throws are never brought up for those performances but when it's Wade, it's the first thing mentioned. :oldlol:All facts.

[Jacks3]

Wade played one of the worst Finals defenses in the last 40 years. The 06 Mavs weren't even top 10 in DRTG. Kobe spent his entire prime seeing GOAT level defenses in the Finals. That's not to mention the ridiculously horrible officiating that was going on in that series. 18 FTA per game in the last 4 games...lmao. What a ****ing joke.

[GrapeApe]

Wade played one of the worst Finals defenses in the last 40 years. The 06 Mavs weren't even top 10 in DRTG. Kobe spent his entire prime seeing GOAT level defenses in the Finals. That's not to mention the ridiculously horrible officiating that was going on in that series. 18 FTA per game in the last 4 games...lmao. What a ****ing joke.

Wade shredded the Pistons' defense in back to back seasons, the same Pistons who held Kobe in check in the 2004 finals. Dallas may not have been a defensive juggernaut, but Wade throughout his career has actually had some of his best performances against statistically great defenses.

[plowking]

How many Freethrows did he average in the Finals that year?

The same amount that Kobe averaged against the Utah Jazz in 2008.

16 free throws a game.

I guess it is okay when it happens for Kobe though.

[plowking]

Wade played one of the worst Finals defenses in the last 40 years. The 06 Mavs weren't even top 10 in DRTG. Kobe spent his entire prime seeing GOAT level defenses in the Finals. That's not to mention the ridiculously horrible officiating that was going on in that series. 18 FTA per game in the last 4 games...lmao. What a ****ing joke.

Wade is statistically a better performer against elite defenses in his prime compared to Kobe.

Another fact.

[Jacks3]

:oldlol:

How much times are you Wade stans going to repeat that nonsense? The 05 and 06 Pistons weren't even remotely close to the 04 team. The 04 Pistons were the best defensive team in history playing under the toughest defensive environment of all-time. The 05 and 06 were playing under the no-handchecking rules and that (especially in 2006) played a big part in their massive decline.

2004 Pistons after the Sheed trade: -11.5 pts relative to league-average DRTG
2005 Pistons: -5.2
2006 Pistons: -3.1

It's not even remotely close. And it doesn't change the fact that the 06 Mavs weren't even in the same universe defensively as teams like the 04 Pistons, 08 Celtis, 2010 Celtics, or 02 Nets/01 Sixers. Not even in the same universe.

[Jacks3]

Wade is statistically a better performer against elite defenses in his prime compared to Kobe.

Another fact.

Kobe in his prime played better defensive comp than any star in basketball history (outside of Shaq) and his numbers barely declined. Another fact.

Kobe spent a huge chunk of his prime (01-04) playing in the best and toughest defensive environment of all-time. Wade spent his entire prime in the post-handchecking era. Another fact.

[plowking]

How did Kobe do against the 10 Celtics compared to Wade? All while Wade was getting trapped at halfcourt.

[plowking]

Kobe in his prime played better defensive comp than any star in basketball history (outside of Shaq) and his numbers barely declined. Another fact.

Kobe spent a huge chunk of his prime (01-04) playing in the best and toughest defensive environment of all-time. Wade spent his entire prime in the post-handchecking era. Another fact.

:oldlol:

Incredible how when Jordan comes up it is "defenses are more advanced and better than ever" and now it is "Kobe played in the toughest defensive era".

Kobe had some great low 40% finals in that time you talk about. And we have statistics and footage of Kobe playing after 04 buddy. Same shit. Wade was better at that point too against elite defenses.

[JohnFreeman]

Absolutely.

Give me prime Wade over Kobe

[GrapeApe]

:oldlol:

How much times are you Wade stans going to repeat that nonsense? The 05 and 06 Pistons weren't even remotely close to the 04 team. The 04 Pistons were the best defensive team in history playing under the toughest defensive environment of all-time. The 05 and 06 were playing under the no-handchecking rules and that (especially in 2006) played a big part in their massive decline.

2004 Pistons after the Sheed trade: -11.5 pts relative to league-average DRTG
2005 Pistons: -5.2
2006 Pistons: -3.1

It's not even remotely close. And it doesn't change the fact that the 06 Mavs weren't even in the same universe defensively as teams like the 04 Pistons, 08 Celtis, 2010 Celtics, or 02 Nets/01 Sixers. Not even in the same universe.

Wade destroyed the 2010 Celtics, and he was double and triple teamed on nearly every possession. He was the 100% sole focus of the defense and still shredded them.

And as has been mentioned, Wade has been better than Kobe throughout his career against great defenses.

[Jacks3]

:oldlol:

Incredible how when Jordan comes up it is "defenses are more advanced and better than ever" and now it is "Kobe played in the toughest defensive era".

Kobe had some great low 40% finals in that time you talk about. And we have statistics and footage of Kobe playing after 04 buddy. Same shit. Wade was better at that point too against elite defenses.

It's a fact, buddy. League-average TS% and ORTG from 01-04 were noticeably lower than they were post-05. Playing "elite" defenses in the best defensive era in history is a lot tougher than playing in a league with no-handchecking.

And the "elite" defenses that Wade has played still don't compare to the ones Bryant saw.

As of 2010(end of Bryant's prime):
These 4 guys have played a series against an opponent with a defensive rating better than 102 on 27 occasions in their careers:
3 times for Jordan - 3 series wins against 93 NY, 97 MIA, 98 IND, includes No Finals, 1 series against ratings better than 100
3 times for Wade - 3 series losses against 04 IND, 05 DET, 07 CHI, includes No Finals, 2 series against ratings better than 100
3 times for LeBron - 3 series losses against 07 SA, 08 BOS, 09 ORL, includes 1 Finals, 2 series against ratings better than 100

18 times for Kobe - 14 series wins, 4 series losses, includes 5 Finals, 13 series against ratings better than 100 including 4 Finals

[Wade's Rings]

Wade played one of the worst Finals defenses in the last 40 years. The 06 Mavs weren't even top 10 in DRTG. Kobe spent his entire prime seeing GOAT level defenses in the Finals. That's not to mention the ridiculously horrible officiating that was going on in that series. 18 FTA per game in the last 4 games...lmao. What a ****ing joke.

So how about the fact that Wade routinely shreds Elite Defenses? '04 Pacers (3rd Best Defense, "toughest defensive era" according to you, guarded by the DPOY): 21/4/6 shooting 49%
'05 Nets (5th Best Defense): 26/6/9 shooting 50%
'05 Pistons(healthy games): 30/6/4 shooting 46%
'06 Nets(4th Best Defense): 28/6/7 shooting 49%
'06 Pistons(5th Best Defense): 27/5/5 shooting 62%
'10 Celtics(5th Best Defense): 33/6/7 shooting 56%
'11 Celtics(2nd Best Defense): 30/7/5 shooting 53%

Wade went through 3 Top 6 Defenses in the '06 East, yet "the East was weak" because of some teams records. He then faces a 60 win Mavs team but they were a poor defense :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

Wade destroyed the 2010 Celtics, and he was double and triple teamed on nearly every possession. He was the 100% sole focus of the defense and still shredded them.


Yawn. I'm sorry if I'm not impressed by him putting up big numbers against a Celtics team that obliterated his team in five games, but I'm glad to see you accepted the fact that the 04 Pistons were far, far superior to 05 or 06 Pistons or any defense Wade saw in his prime. Playing "elite" defenses in the first round while your team is getting destroyed isn't the same as playing in the Finals.


And as has been mentioned, Wade has been better than Kobe throughout his career against great defenses.

No, he really hasn't. And has been mentioned, the "elite" defenses Wade saw weren't as dominant as what Bryant saw, nor did he see them as frequently. And as has mentioned, the defensive environment in which Bryant spent nearly half his prime was far tougher than what Wade saw.

[Jacks3]

So how about the fact that Wade routinely shreds Elite Defenses? '04 Pacers (3rd Best Defense, "toughest defensive era" according to you, guarded by the DPOY): 21/4/6 shooting 49%
'05 Nets (5th Best Defense): 26/6/9 shooting 50%
'05 Pistons(healthy games): 30/6/4 shooting 46%
'06 Nets(4th Best Defense): 28/6/7 shooting 49%
'06 Pistons(5th Best Defense): 27/5/5 shooting 62%
'10 Celtics(5th Best Defense): 33/6/7 shooting 56%
'11 Celtics(2nd Best Defense): 30/7/5 shooting 53%

Wade went through 3 Top 6 Defenses in the '06 East, yet "the East was weak" because of some teams records. He then faces a 60 win Mavs team but they were a poor defense :oldlol:

Yawn. Looking at league rank is useless. You have to look at them relative to league-average to get a clear idea.

And Wade put up 26/5/4 on mediocre efficiency (51.9% TS, 104 ORTG) against the 05 Pistons. Hardly some great series. Sorry, but you can't just ignore entire games. Wade having shitty durability just can't be brushed aside.

And none of this changes the fact that the 06 Mavs weren't even top 10 in DRTG, spent the entire year being torched by perimeter stars, and were one of the weakest Finals defenses of the last 40 years. That's just a fact.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Gotta give props to Jacks3.

Usually the Kobe fanbois don't present stats within their arguments, but he's laid out quite a few here. I've always maintained that 1999-2004 was the greatest defensive-era of all time, and yes, the numbers back that up.

Good posts...especially coming from the source.

[BigMacAttack]

Wade was carried by the refs lol

[Jacks3]

Exactly. All you have have to do is look at league-average TS% and ORTG from 99-04 and compare to what we've seen after. The difference is glaring. In fact, the jump in ORTG from 2004 to 2005 was the HIGHEST in NBA history.

[Papaya Petee]

No, Jacks3 is spewing bullcrap and trying to pass it as facts.

It was okay for Kobe in 2008 (a jumpshooter) to average as many FTA per game as Wade in 2006 (primarily a slasher). But Wade's series was rigged even though Plowking has proven in his essays through videos, pictures, and evidence in the past that the series was officiated evenly.

Then he brings up 1999-2004 as a harder defensive area, comparing Wade to Kobe when Kobe was CLEARLY the 2nd option on his team, facing nowhere near the defensive attention Shaq was.

Then we bring up league ranks in playoff series that Wade demolished top defenses, and he says that league ranks don't matter.

You can justify it however you want, 2006 Finals > anything Kobe has done in the postseason.

[Jacks3]

Pete is spewing a bunch of silly nonsense. Stop it.

Kobe getting a bunch of FTA against a Jazz team that LOVED to foul (they were dead last in the league at FT/FGA at .294) is completely irrelevant and has nothing to do with the joke that was the 06 Finals.

Kobe 01-04 was the best perimeter player in the world and a top 3 player. He drew tons of defensive attention. I can show you tons of footage of Bryant drawing doubles and extra defensive attention. The idea that he wasn't is just a ridiculous myth perpetuated by idiotic Kobe detractors.

And of course league ranks don't matter. You can have two teams finish #1 in DRTG, but one team can be clearly much stronger. See: 2008 Celtics (-8.4) and 09 Magic (-6.4). Two amazing defenses, but one was on another level. Going by league-rank instead of the actual numbers is silly.

You keep telling yourself that Wade's 06 Finals were better than anything Bryant did. It doesn't make it true. Kobe has had multiple series that were better, and his 2009 and 2001 playoff runs were better than anything Wade ever did. Deal with it.

[Wade's Rings]

Yawn. Looking at league rank is useless. You have to look at them relative to league-average to get a clear idea.

So now League rank means nothing, ok :oldlol:


And Wade put up 26/5/4 on mediocre efficiency (51.9% TS, 104 ORTG) against the 05 Pistons. Hardly some great series. Sorry, but you can't just ignore entire games. Wade having shitty durability just can't be brushed aside.

I literally said the Games he was healthy. Why would you include the Games he was hurt to measure what a healthy Wade was doing to the Pistons? :facepalm


And none of this changes the fact that the 06 Mavs weren't even top 10 in DRTG, spent the entire year being torched by perimeter stars, and were one of the weakest Finals defenses of the last 40 years. That's just a fact.

So how about the fact that he killed the Pistons the series before? 27 pts on 62% shooting. 31pts on 70% shooting through the 1st 4 Games. He faces Elite defenses, no they were a wea team...he faces a good team, no they were an average defense :oldlol:

[Akhenaten]

Wade vs 2010 Celtics with 2nd year Beaseley and Jermaine O'Neal's cadaver as his 2nd and 3rd options: 33/7/6 56% fg

Kobe vs the same team with prime Gasol and Lamar Odom:

29/8/4 40% fg

Damn!

[GrapeApe]

Why are Kobe fans so defensive? Wade is an all-time great, a first ballot HOFer, and arguably the 3rd best SG ever. It's not like it's some kind of insult to Kobe to acknowledge Wade's greatness and appreciate some of his amazing performances. I know I respect and appreciate Kobe's greatness. Even if you disagree with the OP, it doesn't change the fact that what Wade did in 2006 was remarkable by any standards.

Objectively, prime Wade and prime Kobe are on the same level. Kobe was obviously able to sustain his elite play for much longer, but that's a different discussion. At their best they were very comparable. Different styles but equally effective.

[f0und]

jack is an OG kobe slobber almost on par with kenneth. you're wasting your time trying to convince the inconvincible.

[Akhenaten]

Wade vs 2011 Mavs

27/7/5 55%

Kobe:

23/3/3 46%

DAMN!

He was voted 1st team over Wade, and y'all Hoebe fans like Jacks have adamantly stated Kobe was better than Wade that season, so don't even try the he wasn't in his prime crap.

[Jacks3]

Nobody is being defensive. I'm posting facts and numbers and Wade stans are responding with irreverent drivel. Nobody is saying that Wade's 06 Finals weren't great, but when you have idiots start suggesting that it was the best Finals performance ever (laughable) and more impressive than anything Bryant or LBJ ever did, well, it's just not true.

[SouBeachTalents]

Nobody is being defensive. I'm posting facts and numbers and Wade stans are responding with irreverent drivel. Nobody is saying that Wade's 06 Finals weren't great, but when you have idiots start suggesting that it was the best Finals performance ever (laughable) and more impressive than anything Bryant or LBJ ever did, well, it's just not true.

Which of LeBron/Kobe's Finals would you consider better?

[Jacks3]

So now League rank means nothing, ok :oldlol:


Yeah, and I explained why. Why would you cut that part out?



I literally said the Games he was healthy. Why would you include the Games he was hurt to measure what a healthy Wade was doing to the Pistons? :facepalm


Because Wade and health don't go together. Because he's been injured in a bunch of series. That's a direct result of his style and the way he plays. You can't just pick and choose which games to focus on and then act like it was some amazing series. You can't ignore entire games. :oldlol:



So how about the fact that he killed the Pistons the series before? 27 pts on 62% shooting. 31pts on 70% shooting through the 1st 4 Games. He faces Elite defenses, no they were a wea team...he faces a good team, no they were an average defense :oldlol:

I already addressed this. You guys are going in circles.

[Akhenaten]

Which of LeBron/Kobe's Finals would you consider better?

Crickets

[WayOfWade]

Which of LeBron/Kobe's Finals would you consider better?
In the end, this is what it comes down to. Jacks3 however will spew his "Kobe's entire playoff runs were more impressive" without even acknowledging that Kobe has NO SINGLE SERIES greater than what Wade did in 2006. Any series Kobe had that was comparable happened to be before the finals, not in, thus making them less impressive.
Also... http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/page/FinalsPerformances-1/greatest-finals-performances-no-1

[IllegalD]

In the end, this is what it comes down to. Jacks3 however will spew his "Kobe's entire playoff runs were more impressive" without even acknowledging that Kobe has NO SINGLE SERIES greater than what Wade did in 2006. Any series Kobe had that was comparable happened to be before the finals, not in, thus making them less impressive.
Also... http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/page/FinalsPerformances-1/greatest-finals-performances-no-1

I swear these fakkit LeBron/Wade Stanleys wouldn't have anything to live for if it wasn't for BSPN's bullsh*t lists. :lol

[GrapeApe]

Wade vs 2011 Mavs

27/7/5 55%

Kobe:

23/3/3 46%

DAMN!

He was voted 1st team over Wade, and y'all Hoebe fans like Jacks have adamantly stated Kobe was better than Wade that season, so don't even try the he wasn't in his prime crap.

Wade was better than Kobe in 2011 in every way imaginble. Better numbers across the board, more efficient, better defensively, and a better team record. Wade being snubbed for 1st team all-NBA is unjustifiable and criminal. Perhaps more puzzling is Wade finishing 3rd in DPOY in 2009 (the top guard) yet not making 1st team all-defense. He was 2nd in steals, had over 100 blocks, and was at his absolute pinnacle as a man defender.

[Jacks3]

In the end, this is what it comes down to. Jacks3 however will spew his "Kobe's entire playoff runs were more impressive" without even acknowledging that Kobe has NO SINGLE SERIES greater than what Wade did in 2006. Any series Kobe had that was comparable happened to be before the finals, not in, thus making them less impressive.
Also... http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/page/FinalsPerformances-1/greatest-finals-performances-no-1

Kobe has multiple playoff series that were as good or better than anything Wade ever did, his 2001 and 2009 playoff runs were better than anything Wade ever did, and his 09 Finals was at least as impressive. Nice try.

[tpols]

Wade was better than Kobe in 2011 in every way imaginble. Better numbers across the board, more efficient, better defensively, and a better team record. Wade being snubbed for 1st team all-NBA is unjustifiable and criminal. Perhaps more puzzling is Wade finishing 3rd in DPOY in 2009 (the top guard) yet not making 1st team all-defense. He was 2nd in steals, had over 100 blocks, and was at his absolute pinnacle as a man defender.

Kobe was coming off of three straight finals and two rings... while Wade was fresh off first round exits and missed time.

We all saw Wade after three straight finals appearances. A shell far worse than kobe. And 2011 was the second time kobe had been coming off three straight finals

[Jacks3]

Wade was better than Kobe in 2011 in every way imaginble. Better numbers across the board, more efficient, better defensively, and a better team record. Wade being snubbed for 1st team all-NBA is unjustifiable and criminal. Perhaps more puzzling is Wade finishing 3rd in DPOY in 2009 (the top guard) yet not making 1st team all-defense. He was 2nd in steals, had over 100 blocks, and was at his absolute pinnacle as a man defender.

Wow. 2011 Wade, who was more or less at his peak, was better than a version of Bryant that was 32 yrs old and in his 15th season and clearly past his prime and was coming off three-straight Finals. Real impressive.

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe has multiple playoff series that were as good or better than anything Wade ever did, his 2001 and 2009 playoff runs were better than anything Wade ever did, and his 09 Finals was at least as impressive. Nice try.
Wait...did this guy just say that Kobes 09 finals is at least as impressive as Wades 06?


Or am I just being paranoid?

[k0kakw0rld]

Just want to know are we all in agreement that what he did in the 2006 NBA Finals is more impressive than anything Kobe or Lebron did in their careers so far?

He was in his 3rd year I think. Miami was down 0-2. They were a quarter away from being down 0-3 and he carried them from the brink of almost certain elimination. The way he played in the 4 wins was god like dominance. His bank shot was cash. The only thing I've seen more automatic was prime Derrick Rose's floater.

Dirk's performance in 2011 WCFs and Finals is the only thing that comes close in the past 15 years.
So 4 mvp trophies before 30 years of age is not impressive? :confusedshrug:

[Jacks3]

The hilarious thing about Wade's 06 Finals was that the Heat offense was absolutely horrible for the series. Their ORTG was at 100, which is the equivalent to the WORST offense in the league. How the hell did they win? Because they shut down the Mavs engine: Dirk.

That had very little to with Wade and everything to do with the great D of Haslem, Mourning, and the Heat front-court.

"Best Finals ever"

:oldlol:

Get the hell out of here.

[Dresta]

:oldlol:

How much times are you Wade stans going to repeat that nonsense? The 05 and 06 Pistons weren't even remotely close to the 04 team. The 04 Pistons were the best defensive team in history playing under the toughest defensive environment of all-time. The 05 and 06 were playing under the no-handchecking rules and that (especially in 2006) played a big part in their massive decline.

2004 Pistons after the Sheed trade: -11.5 pts relative to league-average DRTG
2005 Pistons: -5.2
2006 Pistons: -3.1

It's not even remotely close. And it doesn't change the fact that the 06 Mavs weren't even in the same universe defensively as teams like the 04 Pistons, 08 Celtis, 2010 Celtics, or 02 Nets/01 Sixers. Not even in the same universe.Yeah, 'not in the same universe' -- that's why Wade put up godly numbers against the 2010 Celtics (and 2011 Celtics), and also why he managed 21/4/6 on 57TS% against one of the best defensive teams in the league, in the 'toughest defensive environment of all-time,' as a bloody rookie.

You Kobe stans are downright shameless. One of the remarkable things about Wade is that he has performed--throughout his career--as well against good/great defensive teams as bad. I'm sure someone can get the numbers up and compare his drop off against elite defenses to Kobe's--it's really quite drastic.

[Donkey4trading]

So Wade > Bird then?

[Dresta]

The hilarious thing about Wade's 06 Finals was that the Heat offense was absolutely horrible for the series. Their ORTG was at 100, which is the equivalent to the WORST offense in the league. How the hell did they win? Because they shut down the Mavs engine: Dirk.

That had very little to with Wade and everything to do with the great D of Haslem, Mourning, and the Heat front-court.

"Best Finals ever"

:oldlol:

Get the hell out of here.
Why are you talking about ORTG--what does that team stat have to do with Wade's performance? F*ck all. It's just more evidence of how he put a weak offensive team on his back and carried them to a title. Hard to have a great ORTG when you've got Antoine Walker as your second top scorer, Shaq scoring 13ppg (on less than 30% from the ft line), and everyone shooting like shit (several guys sub 50TS%, Shaq only at 53%, and so on).

Just look at the numbers:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2006-nba-finals-heat-vs-mavericks.html

Everyone outside of Posey and Zo played like ass. You need a reality check you mindless homer.

[Jacks3]

Yeah, 'not in the same universe' -- that's why Wade put up godly numbers against the 2010 Celtics (and 2011 Celtics), and also why he managed 21/4/6 on 57TS% against one of the best defensive teams in the league, in the 'toughest defensive environment of all-time,' as a bloody rookie.

And none of those teams were remotely close to the 04 Pistons.



You Kobe stans are downright shameless. One of the remarkable things about Wade is that he has performed--throughout his career--as well against good/great defensive teams as bad. I'm sure someone can get the numbers up and compare his drop off against elite defenses to Kobe's--it's really quite drastic.

Kobe played better defensive comp throughout his prime than any star in history (outside of Shaq) and yet his numbers barely declined, so you're just wrong.

As has been mentioned, the "elite" defenses Wade saw weren't as dominant as what Bryant saw, nor did he see them as frequently. And as has mentioned, the defensive environment in which Bryant spent nearly half his prime was far tougher than what Wade saw.

No perimeter player in history has played better defenses than Bryant, and no star in history (outside of Shaq) has played better defensive comp overall:http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6142

oppDPAA" is opponent defensive points above average; it's league defensive rating minus team defensive rating. When there's an underscore, that's what it's weighted by -- "_mp" means it's weighted by minutes played in each game, and "_poss" means it's weighted by the individual possessions used in each game. So if you weight the average opponent Kobe's faced in his playoff career by the possessions he used in each game, their defensive rating has been 2.79 points/100 possessions better than the league average.

Shaquille O'Neal 4555 2.80
Kobe Bryant 4223 2.79
Karl Malone 3568 2.48
Tim Duncan 3563 0.84
Michael Jordan 3217 2.04
Scottie Pippen 2917 2.13
Tony Parker 2411 0.71
Richard Hamilton 2245 2.84
Reggie Miller 2149 3.10
Chauncey Billups 2139 2.33
Hakeem Olajuwon 2135 1.59
Gary Payton 2126 2.04
John Stockton 2079 2.22
Dirk Nowitzki 2061 1.69
Patrick Ewing 2052 2.49
Jason Kidd 2045 2.72
Steve Nash 2032 2.00
Rasheed Wallace 1996 2.73
Allen Iverson 1926 1.57
LeBron James 1854 2.35
Robert Horry 1843 1.87
Paul Pierce 1831 2.93
Clyde Drexler 1788 1.65
David Robinson 1772 0.92
Kevin Garnett 1705 1.25

Also, let's look at the players who faced the best Ds, weighted by minutes played by the top minute-getters?

Shaquille O'Neal 8087 4555 2.86
Kobe Bryant 7480 4223 2.80
Robert Horry 6813 1843 1.87
Tim Duncan 6739 3563 0.93
Karl Malone 6730 3568 2.66
Scottie Pippen 6580 2917 2.06
Rasheed Wallace 5683 1996 2.76
Gary Payton 5481 2126 2.30
Derek Fisher 5282 1466 2.92
Michael Jordan 5221 3217 2.07
Reggie Miller 5183 2149 3.14
Chauncey Billups 5174 2139 2.46
John Stockton 5172 2079 2.30
Jason Kidd 4953 2045 2.80
Richard Hamilton 4800 2245 2.93
Tony Parker 4796 2411 0.83
Horace Grant 4632 1202 2.04
Ben Wallace 4525 1035 2.31
Tayshaun Prince 4409 1371 2.95
Patrick Ewing 4319 2052 2.50
Dirk Nowitzki 4299 2061 1.73
Steve Nash 4196 2032 2.03
Bruce Bowen 4191 716 1.02
Hakeem Olajuwon 3922 2135 1.69
Michael Finley 3901 1282 1.38
Charles Oakley 3883 1184 2.82
David Robinson 3846 1772 1.01

As of 2010(end of Bryant's prime):
These 4 guys have played a series against an opponent with a defensive rating better than 102 on 27 occasions in their careers:
3 times for Jordan - 3 series wins against 93 NY, 97 MIA, 98 IND, includes No Finals, 1 series against ratings better than 100
3 times for Wade - 3 series losses against 04 IND, 05 DET, 07 CHI, includes No Finals, 2 series against ratings better than 100
3 times for LeBron - 3 series losses against 07 SA, 08 BOS, 09 ORL, includes 1 Finals, 2 series against ratings better than 100
18 times for Kobe - 14 series wins, 4 series losses, includes 5 Finals, 13 series against ratings better than 100 including 4 Finals

But you keep deluding yourself into think Wade saw the same type of defenses, you ****ing moron.

Ignorant Wade stans. :oldlol:

[Black and White]

As time has gone on, Wade has gotten more and more disrespected, the guy is a 3 time world champion.

[GrapeApe]

Wow. 2011 Wade, who was more or less at his peak, was better than a version of Bryant that was 32 yrs old and in his 15th season and clearly past his prime and was coming off three-straight Finals. Real impressive.

You just proved my point. :oldlol:

Wade WAS better than Kobe that season. It's not even debatable, yet somehow he was snubbed of 1st team all-NBA. It's utterly ridiculous, and Kobe's previous three seasons have no bearing whatsoever on an accolade for 2011.

I'm not sure if you misunderstood what I said or you are trying to deflect. I never said or even implied that Wade being better than Kobe in 2011 was some kind of remarkable feat. I'm simply saying that Wade was in fact better and should have been a 1st team all-NBA selection.

[Jacks3]

Why are you talking about ORTG--what does that team stat have to do with Wade's performance? F*ck all. It's just more evidence of how he put a weak offensive team on his back and carried them to a title.

How did he "carry" them when their defense had far, far more to do with them winning that series than the offense, you moron? This is the probem with you Wade stans. You completely ignore the other side of the ball. Idiot. :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

You just proved my point. :oldlol:

Wade WAS better than Kobe that season. It's not even debatable, yet somehow he was snubbed of 1st team all-NBA. It's utterly ridiculous, and Kobe's previous three seasons have no bearing whatsoever on an accolade for 2011.

I'm not sure if you misunderstood what I said or you are trying to deflect. I never said or even implied that Wade being better than Kobe in 2011 was some kind of remarkable feat. I'm simply saying that Wade was in fact better and should have been a 1st team all-NBA selection.

I agree that Wade should have been 1st-Team All-NBA. I've always said that Wade and Bryant were the two best guards that season and they should have been on the team instead of Kobe/Rose.

[Dresta]

And none of those teams were remotely close to the 04 Pistons.




Kobe played better defensive comp throughout his prime than any star in history (outside of Shaq) and yet his numbers barely declined, so you're just wrong.

As has been mentioned, the "elite" defenses Wade saw weren't as dominant as what Bryant saw, nor did he see them as frequently. And as has mentioned, the defensive environment in which Bryant spent nearly half his prime was far tougher than what Wade saw.

No perimeter player in history has played better defenses than Bryant, and no star in history (outside of Shaq) has played better defensive comp overall:http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6142

oppDPAA" is opponent defensive points above average; it's league defensive rating minus team defensive rating. When there's an underscore, that's what it's weighted by -- "_mp" means it's weighted by minutes played in each game, and "_poss" means it's weighted by the individual possessions used in each game. So if you weight the average opponent Kobe's faced in his playoff career by the possessions he used in each game, their defensive rating has been 2.79 points/100 possessions better than the league average.

Shaquille O'Neal 4555 2.80
Kobe Bryant 4223 2.79
Karl Malone 3568 2.48
Tim Duncan 3563 0.84
Michael Jordan 3217 2.04
Scottie Pippen 2917 2.13
Tony Parker 2411 0.71
Richard Hamilton 2245 2.84
Reggie Miller 2149 3.10
Chauncey Billups 2139 2.33
Hakeem Olajuwon 2135 1.59
Gary Payton 2126 2.04
John Stockton 2079 2.22
Dirk Nowitzki 2061 1.69
Patrick Ewing 2052 2.49
Jason Kidd 2045 2.72
Steve Nash 2032 2.00
Rasheed Wallace 1996 2.73
Allen Iverson 1926 1.57
LeBron James 1854 2.35
Robert Horry 1843 1.87
Paul Pierce 1831 2.93
Clyde Drexler 1788 1.65
David Robinson 1772 0.92
Kevin Garnett 1705 1.25

Also, let's look at the players who faced the best Ds, weighted by minutes played by the top minute-getters?

Shaquille O'Neal 8087 4555 2.86
Kobe Bryant 7480 4223 2.80
Robert Horry 6813 1843 1.87
Tim Duncan 6739 3563 0.93
Karl Malone 6730 3568 2.66
Scottie Pippen 6580 2917 2.06
Rasheed Wallace 5683 1996 2.76
Gary Payton 5481 2126 2.30
Derek Fisher 5282 1466 2.92
Michael Jordan 5221 3217 2.07
Reggie Miller 5183 2149 3.14
Chauncey Billups 5174 2139 2.46
John Stockton 5172 2079 2.30
Jason Kidd 4953 2045 2.80
Richard Hamilton 4800 2245 2.93
Tony Parker 4796 2411 0.83
Horace Grant 4632 1202 2.04
Ben Wallace 4525 1035 2.31
Tayshaun Prince 4409 1371 2.95
Patrick Ewing 4319 2052 2.50
Dirk Nowitzki 4299 2061 1.73
Steve Nash 4196 2032 2.03
Bruce Bowen 4191 716 1.02
Hakeem Olajuwon 3922 2135 1.69
Michael Finley 3901 1282 1.38
Charles Oakley 3883 1184 2.82
David Robinson 3846 1772 1.01

As of 2010(end of Bryant's prime):
These 4 guys have played a series against an opponent with a defensive rating better than 102 on 27 occasions in their careers:
3 times for Jordan - 3 series wins against 93 NY, 97 MIA, 98 IND, includes No Finals, 1 series against ratings better than 100
3 times for Wade - 3 series losses against 04 IND, 05 DET, 07 CHI, includes No Finals, 2 series against ratings better than 100
3 times for LeBron - 3 series losses against 07 SA, 08 BOS, 09 ORL, includes 1 Finals, 2 series against ratings better than 100
18 times for Kobe - 14 series wins, 4 series losses, includes 5 Finals, 13 series against ratings better than 100 including 4 Finals

But you keep deluding yourself into think Wade saw the same type of defenses, you ****ing moron.

Ignorant Wade stans. :oldlol:
Your selective picking and choosing of arbitrary numbers, criteria and stats isn't convincing anyone that wasn't already as convinced as you. You're really not worth discussing anything with; everytime i see you post it's either to suck Kobe's balls or needlessly disrespect Wade, and then you try to back up your incredibly dumb comments with incredibly stupid statistics.

'a defensive rating better than 102'

:roll:

Still ignoring what rookie Wade did to a great defensive team in the 'most difficultest defensive environment of all timess.' Something in your narrative doesn't fit.

[GrapeApe]

How did he "carry" them when their defense had far, far more to do with them winning that series than the offense, you moron? This is the probem with you Wade stans. You completely ignore the other side of the ball. Idiot. :oldlol:

What the hell are you talking about? Wade scored 22 ppg more than the Heat's second highest scorer. That is an insane gap. Great defense doesn't mean a damn thing if you can't put the ball in the hole, and Wade was the only Heat player do consistently do that. By your dumb ass logic, the Heat would have won the series with Tony Allen instead of Wade. I've been trying hard to give you the benefit of the doubt on some of this stuff, but that post is over the top ridiculous.

Speaking of the other side of the ball, Wade was OUTSTANDING defensively in that series, something often overlooked because of his gaudy scoring numbers. He averaged 3 steals and was second on the team in blocks. He had more blocks in the series than Shaq. He made several clutch defensive plays and was easily Heat's best perimeter defender in crunch time.

[Jacks3]

Your selective picking and choosing of arbitrary numbers, criteria and stats isn't convincing anyone that wasn't already as convinced as you. You're really not worth discussing anything with; everytime i see you post it's either to suck Kobe's balls or needlessly disrespect Wade, and then you try to back up your incredibly dumb comments with incredibly stupid statistics.

'a defensive rating better than 102'

:roll:

Still ignoring what rookie Wade did to a great defensive team in the 'most difficultest defensive environment of all timess.' Something in your narrative doesn't fit.

Yeah, that's what I thought. You got nothing. I'd expect nothing less from a moronic Wade stan.

[Jacks3]

What the hell are you talking about? Wade scored 22 ppg more than the Heat's second highest scorer. That is an insane gap. Great defense doesn't mean a damn thing if you can't put the ball in the hole, and Wade was the only Heat player do consistently do that. By your dumb ass logic, the Heat would have won the series with Tony Allen instead of Wade. I've been trying hard to give you the benefit of the doubt on some of this stuff, but that post is over the top ridiculous.

Try reading more carefully. I never said it wasn't a great series by Wade. I said it's absurd to say he "carried" them when the Heat defense was historically good and Wade was absolutely not even close to being the reason for that. Like I said, that's the problem with you Wade stans. You keep ignoring how GREAT defensively the rest of the team was, so when you have morons like Dresta acting like it was one vs five out there, well, it's just not true.

[Dresta]

Yeah, that's what I thought. You got nothing. I'd expect nothing less from a moronic Wade stan.
Says one of the most blatant and obvious stans on this entire site, one whose sole argument is "Kobe faced more defenses with better than 102 ratings!!"

You're like the Pauk of Kobe stans :facepalm

[Smoke117]

Kobe has multiple playoff series that were as good or better than anything Wade ever did, his 2001 and 2009 playoff runs were better than anything Wade ever did, and his 09 Finals was at least as impressive. Nice try.

https://godofall.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/wade-laugh.gif

Where do these Kobe stans get that 32ppg on 27 shots and .525%ts is impressive...yeah kobe averaged a lot of points because he took a lot of shots...he was overall inefficient during the series. That you think that "was at least as impressive" as Wade in 06 is just hilarious and shows what a biased kobe stan you are. You ask any fan of basketball who isn't a kobe or a wade fan who was better...wade in the 06 finals or kobe in the 09 finals...there isn't one person that would say Kobe or say he "was at as impressive". I just don't get it...I don't get what about Kobe Bryant creates you stupid mother****ers and your absurd way of thinking.

[Jacks3]

https://godofall.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/wade-laugh.gif

Where do these Kobe stans get that 32ppg on 27 shots and .525%ts is impressive...yeah kobe averaged a lot of points because he took a lot of shots...he was overall inefficient during the series. That you think that "was at least as impressive" as Wade in 06 is just hilarious and shows what a biased kobe stan you are. You ask any fan of basketball who isn't a kobe or a wade fan who was better...wade in the 06 finals or kobe in the 09 finals...there isn't one person that would say Kobe or say he "was at as impressive". I just don't get it...I don't get what about Kobe Bryant creates you stupid mother****ers and your absurd way of thinking.

You're an idiot, dude. A turnover is a lot worse than a missed shot, and Bryant did a GREAT job of taking care of the ball in that series (9.4% TOV rate) despite his huge playmaking/scoring load(32+PPG/38% USG/35% AST%), which is why his ORTG (111) was very good. And the 09 Magic (-6.4)were way, way, WAY better defensively than the 06 Mavs (-1.2). These are the facts, buddy. What is it about Wade that creates such ignorant mother****ers? ****ing clowns. :oldlol:

[WayOfWade]

Kobe has multiple playoff series that were as good or better than anything Wade ever did, his 2001 and 2009 playoff runs were better than anything Wade ever did, and his 09 Finals was at least as impressive. Nice try.
Alright Jacks3, show me a single series in 2001 or 2009 that was more impressive. And Kobe's 09' finals was no where near as impressive you dimwit. Kobe won as the favorite, Wade won as the underdog. Wade brought his team back from being down 0-2, Kobe started out the series 2-0 (since his team was vastly superior to the Magic). Kobe had an amazing finals in 09' don't get me wrong, but to say it was at least as good as Wade in 06' is ignorant and without facts. Kobe had what, more assists? That's a first
01'? Please show me a single series better than Wade in the 06' finals, oh wait, you can't. Kobe had a decent finals, and since everything else was a blowout and not in the finals, nothing compares. I know you love Kobe, but take a freaking look and realize that this performance is better than anything Kobe did. Still though, Kobe >>> Wade and is within the top 10 on my personal list

[Smoke117]

Alright Jacks3, show me a single series in 2001 or 2009 that was more impressive. And Kobe's 09' finals was no where near as impressive you dimwit. Kobe won as the favorite, Wade won as the underdog. Wade brought his team back from being down 0-2, Kobe started out the series 2-0 (since his team was vastly superior to the Magic). Kobe had an amazing finals in 09' don't get me wrong, but to say it was at least as good as Wade in 06' is ignorant and without facts. Kobe had what, more assists? That's a first
01'? Please show me a single series better than Wade in the 06' finals, oh wait, you can't. Kobe had a decent finals, and since everything else was a blowout and not in the finals, nothing compares. I know you love Kobe, but take a freaking look and realize that this performance is better than anything Kobe did. Still though, Kobe >>> Wade and is within the top 10 on my personal list


Only because Wade had injury problems...his 09 year is on another tier compared to any season Kobe ever had. Easily the closest to MJ in his prime.

[AirFederer]

I see Kobe stans getting defensive here... I think it's because they know Wade had a higher peak than their boy. Better efficiency, better D, better team mate. And he has 3 rangz.

No wonder they feel threatened.

Arguing with stans is futile.

[GrapeApe]

Try reading more carefully. I never said it wasn't a great series by Wade. I said it's absurd to say he "carried" them when the Heat defense was historically good and Wade was absolutely not even close to being the reason for that.Like I said, that's the problem with you Wade stans. You keep ignoring how GREAT defensively the rest of the team was, so when you have morons like Dresta acting like it was one vs five out there, well, it's just not true.

Wade absolutely WAS a huge part of the Heat being great defensively. You're acting like he was James Harden. Wade was one of the top defensive guards in the league and the Heat's only all-defense representative. His defense in the 2006 playoffs was outstanding and crucial to winning the title. Pat Riley has mentioned it on several occasions, praising Wade's ability to effectively guard 1-3, his instincts, shot blocking, and knack for big defensive plays. Riley has stated that Wade is among the elite group of players to win a championship as his team's best player on both ends.

[sportjames23]

The Godfather of the FT era. :bowdown:


Now we see players who have really mastered the craft, like James Harden.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Wade's Rings]

Yeah, and I explained why. Why would you cut that part out?

I didn't.


Because Wade and health don't go together. Because he's been injured in a bunch of series. That's a direct result of his style and the way he plays. You can't just pick and choose which games to focus on and then act like it was some amazing series. You can't ignore entire games. :oldlol:

Him injuring his rib on a jumpshot is because of his play style? :oldlol:

I'm showing what he did when he was healthy. You're including the injured Games just for your agenda.


I already addressed this. You guys are going in circles.

Your response was comparing them to the '04 & '05 Pistons. Using your own criteria they were the 2nd best defense in the League.

[Wade's Rings]

You're an idiot, dude. A turnover is a lot worse than a missed shot, and Bryant did a GREAT job of taking care of the ball in that series (9.4% TOV rate) despite his huge playmaking/scoring load(32+PPG/38% USG/35% AST%), which is why his ORTG (111) was very good. And the 09 Magic (-6.4)were way, way, WAY better defensively than the 06 Mavs (-1.2). These are the facts, buddy. What is it about Wade that creates such ignorant mother****ers? ****ing clowns. :oldlol:

The '09 Magic were absolutely weak on the Perimeter. Bron posted 38/8/8 on 48% shooting on them the series before. Wade put up 38/6/5 on 53% on them during the Season. Dwight manning the paint is why they were so great :oldlol:

[Wade's Rings]

Says one of the most blatant and obvious stans on this entire site, one whose sole argument is "Kobe faced more defenses with better than 102 ratings!!"

You're like the Pauk of Kobe stans :facepalm

https://elgee35.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/wade-kobe-lebron-playoff-breakdown-by-defense1.jpg

This doesn't mean anything because you need a 102 Defensive Rating for it to be an Elite Defense :oldlol:

[Dresta]

You're an idiot, dude. A turnover is a lot worse than a missed shot, and Bryant did a GREAT job of taking care of the ball in that series (9.4% TOV rate) despite his huge playmaking/scoring load(32+PPG/38% USG/35% AST%), which is why his ORTG (111) was very good. And the 09 Magic (-6.4)were way, way, WAY better defensively than the 06 Mavs (-1.2). These are the facts, buddy. What is it about Wade that creates such ignorant mother****ers? ****ing clowns. :oldlol:
Oh yeah, dat mighty Orlando Magic team :bowdown: .

Wade averaged 38/6/5/2/1 on 53% shooting against the Magic in the 09 season. And what did Lebron average against them in the playoffs again? That Orlando team was a worse finals team than the Mavs. No doubt you'll cry "regular season" while ignoring that their defensive rating is a product of that same regular season. Funny how you'll brag about how good the West is, but won't even acknowledge how the Magic playing in a shitty offensive conference is going to boost their defensive numbers.

You're stupid as shit dude. So, so, so selective, and you can't even see it. Everyone calling you on your bs has been 'created an ignant mfer' by Wade apparently. And you're still using ORTG like it says something specifically about Kobe

:hammerhead:


Wade absolutely WAS a huge part of the Heat being great defensively. You're acting like he was James Harden. Wade was one of the top defensive guards in the league and the Heat's only all-defense representative. His defense in the 2006 playoffs was outstanding and crucial to winning the title. Pat Riley has mentioned it on several occasions, praising Wade's ability to effectively guard 1-3, his instincts, shot blocking, and knack for big defensive plays. Riley has stated that Wade is among the elite group of players to win a championship as his team's best player on both ends.
How does this idiot not know any of this? Yeah, the Heat defense was great because of J-Will and Toine Walker (and fat ass Shaq, even though the defense got miles better when Zo subbed in). Nor was that team's defense "historically good" -- whatta clown.

That's some "historically great" defense they played against the Nets there:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2006-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-nets-vs-heat.html

[Dresta]

https://elgee35.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/wade-kobe-lebron-playoff-breakdown-by-defense1.jpg

This doesn't mean anything because you need a 102 Defensive Rating for it to be an Elite Defense :oldlol:
Boom.

/end discussion.

Go home Jacky boy.

[coin24]

I love me some alpha batman wade:rockon:

I have him as third best sg all time..
Mj
Kobe
Wade..


3 rings, should be 4 but lebaldo sabotaged him pos:oldlol:

[Wade's Rings]

I love me some alpha batman wade:rockon:

I have him as third best sg all time..
Mj
Kobe
Wade..


3 rings, should be 4 but lebaldo sabotaged him pos:oldlol:

:rockon:

[ShawkFactory]

You're an idiot, dude. A turnover is a lot worse than a missed shot, and Bryant did a GREAT job of taking care of the ball in that series (9.4% TOV rate) despite his huge playmaking/scoring load(32+PPG/38% USG/35% AST%), which is why his ORTG (111) was very good. And the 09 Magic (-6.4)were way, way, WAY better defensively than the 06 Mavs (-1.2). These are the facts, buddy. What is it about Wade that creates such ignorant mother****ers? ****ing clowns. :oldlol:
This dude says Kobes 09 finals = Wade in 06 and has the audacity to call someone else an idiot :lol

[f0und]

I love me some alpha batman wade:rockon:

I have him as third best sg all time..
Mj
Kobe
Wade..


3 rings, should be 4 but lebaldo sabotaged him pos:oldlol:

couldve easily been 5 with 3 finals mvp. the 05 heat with a healthy wade were clearly the better team than detroit that year and detroit took SA to 7 games.

[aj1987]

https://elgee35.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/wade-kobe-lebron-playoff-breakdown-by-defense1.jpg

This doesn't mean anything because you need a 102 Defensive Rating for it to be an Elite Defense :oldlol:

Watch the idiot come in here again and cherry pick years, stats, and arguments. :oldlol:

[Magic 32]

Well we know how good the Mavs were at shutting down elite SG's that year...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSUoQw0pKew

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwWQTGJPzzY

[Akhenaten]

his 09 Finals was at least as impressive.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v300/Haskel45/14w4x78jpg-1.gif

[Wade's Rings]

Watch the idiot come in here again and cherry pick years, stats, and arguments. :oldlol:

That's what I expected :oldlol:

[Wade's Rings]

Well we know how good the Mavs were at shutting down elite SG's that year...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSUoQw0pKew

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwWQTGJPzzY

Wade vs the '09 Magic: 38/6/5 shooting 53%
Roy vs the '09 Magic: 28/6/4 shooting 48%
Bron '09 ECF: 38/8/8 shooting 48%

[Magic 32]

Wade vs the '09 Magic: 38/6/5 shooting 53%
Roy vs the '09 Magic: 28/6/4 shooting 48%
Bron '09 ECF: 38/8/8 shooting 48%

Your point?

[Wade's Rings]

Your point?

It works both ways about the teams defenses, the difference being the Magic had Dwight anchoring them and made them look much better defensively than they actually were.

[Magic 32]

It works both ways about the teams defenses, the difference being the Magic had Dwight anchoring them and made them look much better defensively than they actually were.

Not sure what I missed.

Is this about Wade 06 vs Kobe 09 FMVP's?

[tomtucker]

I love me some alpha batman wade:rockon:

I have him as third best sg all time..
Mj
Kobe
Wade..


3 rings, should be 4 but lebaldo sabotaged him pos:oldlol:
:applause: :rockon: :cheers:

[Wade's Rings]

Not sure what I missed.

Is this about Wade 06 vs Kobe 09 FMVP's?

The OP said that the '06 Finals was more impressive than anything Bron or Kobe have ever done(I understand if Kobe stans disagree and get upset about this). Jacks then used some arbitrary stats like defensive rating relative to league average, 102 defensive rating or lower to say Kobe played much more Elite Defenses than Wade and played better against them. He then started using those same stats for the Mavs and the '09 Magic, which of course lead to him saying Kobe's '09 Finals is as impressive as Wade's, which lead to us comparing the teams.

[f0und]

Well we know how good the Mavs were at shutting down elite SG's that year...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSUoQw0pKew

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwWQTGJPzzY

yeah, and we know how generous they are with giving out fouls to elite SGs. kobe, primarily a jump shooter, had 25 in only 3 qtrs.

[Magic 32]

yeah, and we know how generous they are with giving out fouls to elite SGs. kobe, primarily a jump shooter, had 25 in only 3 qtrs.

Well, that still sounds like the 2006 finals to me.

[Magic 32]

The OP said that the '06 Finals was more impressive than anything Bron or Kobe have ever done(I understand if Kobe stans disagree and get upset about this). Jacks then used some arbitrary stats like defensive rating relative to league average, 102 defensive rating or lower to say Kobe played much more Elite Defenses than Wade and played better against them. He then started using those same stats for the Mavs and the '09 Magic, which of course lead to him saying Kobe's '09 Finals is as impressive as Wade's, which lead to us comparing the teams.

Oh ok.

I only disagree with the original premise of the thread.

[tpols]

nah.. that Finals is very overrated. For every Shot wade took he was getting .7 free throws.

For reference to show how absurd the above is, in their careers for the playoffs Bron (who plays a similar game to Wade) shoots only .45 free throws per shot attempt, and Kobe is at .35. Wade was on some Harden shit


That reffing on top of facing one of the weakest defensive Finals team of the decade... Wade's extremely fortunate to have even had that opportunity to face a team like that in the Finals.

[Wade's Rings]

Oh ok.

I only disagree with the original premise of the thread.

That's understandable.


nah.. that Finals is very overrated. For every Shot wade took he was getting .7 free throws.

For reference to show how absurd the above is, in their careers for the playoffs Bron (who plays a similar game to Wade) shoots only .45 free throws per shot attempt, and Kobe is at .35. Wade was on some Harden shit

How did you come up with this?


That reffing on top of facing one of the weakest defensive Finals team of the decade... Wade's extremely fortunate to have even had that opportunity to face a team like that in the Finals.

This is exactly what I was saying earlier in this thread. Before the Finals Wade faced 3 Top 6 defenses. When this is mentioned the typical response is "the east was weak". When he faces a 60 win team in the Mavs, it's "their defense was weak".

The Free Thing has been overblown especially by people like you.

[aj1987]

nah.. that Finals is very overrated. For every Shot wade took he was getting .7 free throws.

For reference to show how absurd the above is, in their careers for the playoffs Bron (who plays a similar game to Wade) shoots only .45 free throws per shot attempt, and Kobe is at .35. Wade was on some Harden shit
You're comparing a 6 game sample size to 180 and 220 games? :facepalm

Oh, and Kobe was at 0.83 in '08 against the Jazz. 0.63 in the no hand-handcheching "tough" defensive era against the Kings. :oldlol:


That reffing on top of facing one of the weakest defensive Finals team of the decade... Wade's extremely fortunate to have even had that opportunity to face a team like that in the Finals.
I don't see you Chuckbe stans complain about the reffing in '02 and '10.

[ShawkFactory]

nah.. that Finals is very overrated. For every Shot wade took he was getting .7 free throws.

For reference to show how absurd the above is, in their careers for the playoffs Bron (who plays a similar game to Wade) shoots only .45 free throws per shot attempt, and Kobe is at .35. Wade was on some Harden shit


That reffing on top of facing one of the weakest defensive Finals team of the decade... Wade's extremely fortunate to have even had that opportunity to face a team like that in the Finals.
Regardless of the team they played (which won 60 games and beat perhaps the best Spurs team they've ever had), the Heat were HUGE underdogs and after going down 2-0 Wade went nuts.

[tpols]

How did you come up with this?



This is exactly what I was saying earlier in this thread. Before the Finals Wade faced 3 Top 6 defenses. When this is mentioned the typical response is "the east was weak". When he faces a 60 win team in the Mavs, it's "their defense was weak".

The Free Thing has been overblown especially by people like you.

Its just FTs/FGAs.. proportion of how many foul shots taken to floor shots.


The main beef with the east is the first couple rounds, and placement/seeding. For instance, if you swapped Bron's 07 Cavs and Kobe's 07 Lakers' conferences, Kobe wouldve seen the Raptors in the first round instead of the suns, and Bron wouldve faced the same Spurs team that wiped the floor with him in the first round instead of the wizards.

Thats the difference.



With relation to Dwayne Wade, this part is pretty funny to illustrate...

If the 2006 Heat had been in the West instead of the East, they wouldve faced the same Maverick team that was "overwhelming favorites" against them in the Finals, in the first round. They then would've seen a Spurs team that wouldve been much, much tougher for them then the Mavs were in the second round. This is in contrast to playing a nobody Bulls team, and a Nets team that was on verge of sinking out of what they once were.



Do you see the dramatic difference conference disparity can make now ?




You're comparing a 6 game sample size to 180 and 220 games? :facepalm

Oh, and Kobe was at 0.83 in '08 against the Jazz. 0.63 in the no hand-handcheching "tough" defensive era against the Kings. :oldlol:


I don't see you Chuckbe stans complain about the reffing in '02 and '10.

Since when do people even bring up that series against the Jazz as some GOAT level shit like you wade kiddies run around doing for 2006? Even that Kings series is hardly ever brought up since that came from a time period you all just brush off as "carried by shaq"... the difference is kobe fans arent proppin those like you do 06.. so its a non point.

[aj1987]

Since when do people even bring up that series against the Jazz as some GOAT level shit like you wade kiddies run around doing for 2006? Even that Kings series is hardly ever brought up since that came from a time period you all just brush off as "carried by shaq"... the difference is kobe fans arent proppin those like you do 06.. so its a non point.
Dude, Kobe stans bring up that series ALL the time. That's quite possibly Kobe's best series (statistically) ever.

Anyways, go ahead, disprove any of this:


Right here:

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showthread.php?t=126843

Interesting facts:

In this playoff run, Dirk Nowitzki sets a record for must FT's hit during the playoffs shooting 209-229. Wade on the other hand shoots 202-250 with both players playing 23 games in the playoffs that year. For a player who is more of a slasher, Wade only managed to get 21 more free throws? :rolleyes:

Furthermore, Wade shot 10 and 14 free throws in the first two games, so its not like he just got more free throws the next few games. He was already getting to the line a lot.

The total foul count in the series was 146 fouls committed by the Miami Heat and 160 fouls committed by the Mavericks. Fairly equal if anything.

Furthermore, it's amazing it was soo close considering the Heat have Shaq and Wade on their team. Wade is a driver who gets a lot of free throws anyway, and Shaq is a guy who teams love to send to the line. Also, the Mavericks were more of a jumpshooting team, with most of their driving coming from Harris and Howard.

Quick facts:
--Miami outrebounded the Mavs in 4 of the 6 games in the series.
--In the 4 games Miami won, they shot better in 3 of those matchups, with the only time they shot worse being by .8 of a %.
--Miami shot less threes then the Dallas team in 5 of the 6 games. The one time they shot more threes then the Dallas team, they lost.

Game 3:
Mavericks up 83-71 with 8:30 left. A lot of people claim that the refs took over here and helped guide Wade to victory.
Up to the 3rd quarter Wade had shot 15 free throws. In the 4th quarter, Wade shot only 3 free throws, and only 1 free throw within the 8:30 left. So the two other free throws he shot were before the 12 point lead the Mavs had.

Not to mention with the game score was 97-95 in favor of the Heat with 3 seconds to go and Dirk gets given 2 free throws. So the Mavs were given a chance to tie the game, and Dirk only hit 1 of 2 free throws to make the score 97-96 in favor of the Heat.

So in actual fact, Wade got no free throws in that 8:30, due to the free throws he recieved being out of desperation and the Mavs hacking to be able to get another shot off. So a total of 0 shooting fouls were called for Wade in the 4th.


Game 4:
98-74 win for the Heat. Mavs shot 31% and Wade had 9 free throws. Nothing to talk about really. Mavs completely outplayed.

Game 5:
This is the game where Wade goes onto shoot as many free throws as the entire Dallas team. 21-25 went Wade and 21-25 went Dallas. Game went into overtime as well.
Wade had 22 points going into the 4th quarter. Wade scored 17 in the 4th quarter with the last 6 points all coming from jumpers. Even the game tying shot was a jumper to level the game at 93-93 with 2 seconds left. No free throws needed. 7 of Wade's 17 points came from FT's. So he basically maintained his average foul shot per quarter rate in the 4th.

Then in the overtime, the score was 100-99 in favor of the Mavs with 2 seconds left and Wade was given 2 free throws. As many of you know, at the time there was great debate as to whether this was a foul or not. The play involved Harris and Nowitzki both hacking Wade and Nowitzki being called for the foul.

http://i.imgur.com/7Efvj5G.jpg

That was the play for those who have forgot. Many people say this wasn't a foul. Now take a look at what happened on this play:

http://i.imgur.com/qr98Ae1.gif
Harris' leg clearly fouling Wade.

Also:
Dirk giving Wade a huge shove, just look at the amount of contact.

http://i.imgur.com/GZdbKdf.jpg

Not to mention Harris grabbed Wade's other hand on the way to the basket, but I don't have a picture. He didn't just slap it, but grabbed it and didn't allow Wade to have shooting motion. That is a foul even in late game situations. Two players hacking and getting a huge amount of contact. On his leg, one arm and pushing on his back. That has to get called even in the dying seconds.

EDIT: Picture found.

http://i.imgur.com/CfMyCFs.jpg

Harris' grabbing Wade's shooting arm, pretty much not allowing a shot to be attempted.

Game 6:

Heat win the championship with a 95-92 win. No controversy here

Wade had the best Finals performance in NBA History... Putting the team on his back in the Final 4 games (all wins) and scored over 35 pts per game in each one:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1

^ GREATEST Finals Performance EVER !!

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6013055&postcount=19

[QUOTE=ImKobe]The opposing team couldn't stop Wade without fouling, so he exploited that and won his team the game? :oldlol:

They changed the rules to get the scoring back up after the 04 season, handchecking was made illegal. It's why guys like Kobe,Lebron and AI had huge gains in the PPG department in 05-06, they learned how to exploit the new rules that favored the offensive player.

Here's a good post

[QUOTE]From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It

[tpols]

The Heat wouldve been a 5th seed with 52 wins and faced Dallas in the first round.

And this:

"Unfortunately for Cuban and the Mavs, the rule changes he helped initiate contributed to Dallas’ loss to the Miami Heat in the 2006 NBA Finals. Dwyane Wade shot an NBA Finals record 97 free throws. To his credit, Wade attacked the basket relentlessly, but there were times when Maverick defenders beat Wade to a spot on the floor, had their arms to their sides, and were whistled for blocking fouls when Wade initiated contact. It was ridiculous. The Mavericks attempted 48 free throws in Game’s 5 and 6. Wade attempted 46 freebies over the same span"

is what im talking about.. you're showing stand still pictures of Wade acting like its proof.. so and so's leg touched wade's leg. I bet you show me the pic from the 11 Finals where he dropped to the floor on a half court buzzer beater pretending to have gotten hit in the eye next? The man has no shame.

Thats the thing, Wade is a master at creating contact, and then acting like you hit him.. thats his game.

[Wade's Rings]

Its just FTs/FGAs.. proportion of how many foul shots taken to floor shots.

I put 24 FGA attempts instead of 23.


The main beef with the east is the first couple rounds, and placement/seeding. For instance, if you swapped Bron's 07 Cavs and Kobe's 07 Lakers' conferences, Kobe wouldve seen the Raptors in the first round instead of the suns, and Bron wouldve faced the same Spurs team that wiped the floor with him in the first round instead of the wizards.

Thats the difference.

You picked '07 a year the East was very weak. I'm speaking in general for Wade when people say that about his '06 run.


With relation to Dwayne Wade, this part is pretty funny to illustrate...

If the 2006 Heat had been in the West instead of the East, they wouldve faced the same Maverick team that was "overwhelming favorites" against them in the Finals, in the first round. They then would've seen a Spurs team that wouldve been much, much tougher for them then the Mavs were in the second round. This is in contrast to playing a nobody Bulls team, and a Nets team that was on verge of sinking out of what they once were.



Do you see the dramatic difference conference disparity can make now ?

The Heat were on a 46 Win pace vs the west in '06 (17-13 vs the West) that puts them as the 7th seed pushing L.A to 8th. They face the Suns without without Amare, I seriously doubt the Heat lose to them. They then face the Clippers in the 2nd round, you think they beat the Heat? In the Conference Finals they would face Dallas and still go on to win the Title.

The Nets won 49 Games (this includes them throwing the last 2 Games) and were playing great in the finals 2 months of the Season + they were the 4th best defense in the League. The Spurs are a much better team but don't act like the Nets were a joke of a team.


Since when do people even bring up that series against the Jazz as some GOAT level shit like you wade kiddies run around doing for 2006? Even that Kings series is hardly ever brought up since that came from a time period you all just brush off as "carried by shaq"... the difference is kobe fans arent proppin those like you do 06.. so its a non point.

People only prop up Wade's Finals in comparison to other Finals series and even with the Free Throws what he did was still historic. Wtf are you talking about? That '08 run is always brought up. It's one of Kobe's best series of his Career but the fact that he shot those Free Throws is never mentioned. That '01 run is always brought up. There's literally a thread on the front page right now where Kobe stans are praising that run and that series :oldlol:

Edit: The were on a 46 win pace vs the West and on a 55 win pace vs the East. Playing the west 52 times, they would win 29 Games, playing the east 30 times they would win 20 Games. That would place them with the same record as Memphis, idk who gets homecourt. My assumption earlier in my post was off.

[Mass Debator]

[QUOTE=tpols]The Heat wouldve been a 5th seed with 52 wins and faced Dallas in the first round.

And this:

[I]"Unfortunately for Cuban and the Mavs, the rule changes he helped initiate contributed to Dallas

[Akhenaten]

is what im talking about.. you're showing stand still pictures of Wade acting like its proof.. so and so's leg touched wade's leg.

How is it not proof?

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/1121/nba_g_wade_600.jpg

So that's not a CLEAR foul IYO? That's him seeking out contact? Or is that one of the examples of the Dallas defenders "keeping their hands to their sides" :oldlol: Or are you saying it's some camera angle stuff that makes it seem like Devin Harris is GRABBING Wade's arm as he's trying to shoot?

This dude said a "so and so's leg touched" :roll:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v300/Haskel45/foul8sx.gif

touched? Cmon man

I mean really man...you Kobe dudes are entertaining.

[Wade's Rings]

How is it not proof?

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/1121/nba_g_wade_600.jpg

So that's not a CLEAR foul IYO? That's him seeking out contact? Or is that one of the examples of the Dallas defenders "keeping their hands to their sides" :oldlol: Or are you saying it's some camera angle stuff that makes it seem like Devin Harris is GRABBING Wade's arm as he's trying to shoot?

This dude said a "so and so's leg touched" :roll:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v300/Haskel45/foul8sx.gif

touched? Cmon man

I mean really man...you Kobe dudes are entertaining.

What else would you expect? He's one of the people who actually believe Wade didn't get hit on that running 3 in the '11 Finals.

I remember him saying that the whole purpose of Wade's eurostep is to create contact and draw a foul, seriously? :roll:

[tpols]

This dude said a "so and so's leg touched" :roll:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v300/Haskel45/foul8sx.gif

touched? Cmon man

I mean really man...you Kobe dudes are entertaining.

I dont get what you're refering to.. if you're talking about the defenders leg brushing up on Wade's or Dirk with his hands out ? Either way, you guys are too much.

Did the guy above me actually insinuate that Wade should have gotten 3 free throws on that half court buzzer beater ? LOL. That is the same type of entitlement your boy has.

Like the refs are going to call a foul on a half court shot, for a guy that constantly throws tantrums, and distorts contact initiations, in the waning seconds of a 3 point ball game?

:wtf:

[Wade's Rings]

I dont get what you're refering to.. if you're talking about the defenders leg brushing up on Wade's or Dirk with his hands out ? Either way, you guys are too much.

Did the guy above me actually insinuate that Wade should have gotten 3 free throws on that half court buzzer beater ? LOL. That is the same type of entitlement your boy has.

Like the refs are going to call a foul on a half court shot, for a guy that constantly throws tantrums, and distorts contact initiations, in the waning seconds of a 3 point ball game?

:wtf:

:facepalm

I said Wade got hit. I've said the refs not calling it was a good call but he did get hit. However to morons like you he "faked it".

[GrapeApe]

Thats the thing, Wade is a master at creating contact, and then acting like you hit him.. thats his game.

That's his game? :wtf:

How about the fact that Wade is one of the most skilled and explosive drivers of the basketball to ever play? How about him being an elite finisher at the rim? How about his elite array of runners, floaters, and teardrops? How about him being a dynamic passer and playmaker? How about his midrange jumper that was money throughout the 2006 playoffs?

And btw, drawing fouls is an important skill. Jerry West has talked about it being one of the most important offensive skills a player can have. It leads to points and creates foul trouble for the opposition. Nearly every great scorer in history has been adept at getting to the line. It's certainly a part of Wade's game, but to say it IS his game is absurd. Prime Wade was also among the league leaders in and-1's, so it's not as if he was like Harden in terms of just trying to draw contact. He was looking to score every time he took it to the rim. He's arguably had more acrobatic finishes with contact than any player except Jordan.

Only on ish is the ability to get to the line viewed as a negative. In the majority of the basketball world (certainly among coaches and players) it's considered a valuable skill and absolutely crucial to winning games. I understand it's not necessarily exciting from a fan's standpoint, but the goal is to score as efficiently as possible and ultimately win games. Proficiently getting to the line helps to accomplish both of those goals.

[Akhenaten]

I dont get what you're refering to.. if you're talking about the defenders leg brushing up on Wade's or Dirk with his hands out ? Either way, you guys are too much.





yous a cold nikka tpols :yaohappy:
how you just finna edit out lil picture showing bro grabbing the man arm clear as day?

I guess D harris' hands just "brushed up on" or wafted (like a mist or aroma :oldlol: ) on Wade's arm.

I know you just goading nigguhs tho, props, shit is funny.

[Smoke117]

What else would you expect? He's one of the people who actually believe Wade didn't get hit on that running 3 in the '11 Finals.

I remember him saying that the whole purpose of Wade's eurostep is to create contact and draw a foul, seriously? :roll:

He has Wade confused with James Harden.

[Akhenaten]

He has Wade confused with James Harden.

Dog just messing with us Wade fans emotions man, he believes a lot of what he's saying but the "that's his game" stuff is just jokes.

[Wade's Rings]

That's his game? :wtf:

How about the fact that Wade is one of the most skilled and explosive drivers of the basketball to ever play? How about him being an elite finisher at the rim? How about his elite array of runners, floaters, and teardrops? How about him being a dynamic passer and playmaker? How about his midrange jumper that was money throughout the 2006 playoffs?

And btw, drawing fouls is an important skill. Jerry West has talked about it being one of the most important offensive skills a player can have. It leads to points and creates foul trouble for the opposition. Nearly every great scorer in history has been adept at getting to the line. It's certainly a part of Wade's game, but to say it IS his game is absurd. Prime Wade was also among the league leaders in and-1's, so it's not as if he was like Harden in terms of just trying to draw contact. He was looking to score every time he took it to the rim. He's arguably had more acrobatic finishes with contact than any player except Jordan.

Only on ish is the ability to get to the line viewed as a negative. In the majority of the basketball world (certainly among coaches and players) it's considered a valuable skill and absolutely crucial to winning games. I understand it's not necessarily exciting from a fan's standpoint, but the goal is to score as efficiently as possible and ultimately win games. Proficiently getting to the line helps to accomplish both of those goals.

:applause:

I'm still on his Eurostep comment (I think he deleted it).

@Tpols in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmnBkzTIwts @ 1:02 Wade says he needs a way to get around the defender. Are any of the Eurosteps in the video done to make contact and draw a foul?

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-30-2015/DIWrg0.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/20150521/5211076/eurostep-on-bynum-o.gif

He's clearly looking for contact, to draw a foul, and flop :rolleyes:

[Akhenaten]

tpols be like: "his elbow grazed him" :roll:

https://49.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2wti2wJ0L1rs5whdo1_500.gif

[Wade's Rings]

He has Wade confused with James Harden.

yep


Dog just messing with us Wade fans emotions man, he believes a lot of what he's saying but the "that's his game" stuff is just jokes.

I've seen him make the same argument so it's hard to believe he's trolling.


tpols be like: "his elbow grazed him" :roll:

https://49.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2wti2wJ0L1rs5whdo1_500.gif

:oldlol:

[GrapeApe]

:applause:

I'm still on his Eurostep comment (I think he deleted it).

@Tpols in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmnBkzTIwts @ 1:02 Wade says he needs a way to get around the defender. Are any of the Eurosteps in the video done to make contact and draw a foul?

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-30-2015/DIWrg0.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/20150521/5211076/eurostep-on-bynum-o.gif

He's clearly looking for contact, to draw a foul, and flop :rolleyes:

Yeah, the eurostep by design is meant to sidestep a defender, often to avoid a charge. I'm not sure how anyone could suggest that it's a foul-drawing maneuver. The ironic thing about people criticizing Wade for drawing contact is Wade is one of the best players ever at AVOIDING contact. He's a master at navigating through traffic, sliding between or around defenders, and finishing through impossibly tight windows.

He's indeed smart and savvy when it comes to getting defenders out of position and forcing a foul (particularly with his pump fake), but he's avoided more contact throughout his career than any player I've seen.

[Wade's Rings]

Yeah, the eurostep by design is meant to sidestep a defender, often to avoid a charge. I'm not sure how anyone could suggest that it's a foul-drawing maneuver. The ironic thing about people criticizing Wade for drawing contact is Wade is one of the best players ever at AVOIDING contact. He's a master at navigating through traffic, sliding between or around defenders, and finishing through impossibly tight windows.

He's indeed smart and savvy when it comes to getting defenders out of position and forcing a foul (particularly with his pump fake), but he's avoided more contact throughout his career than any player I've seen.

On top of this it's not like Wade is fishing for calls.

[tpols]

Only on ish is the ability to get to the line viewed as a negative. .

I never said getting to the line is a negative.. that is a strawman. Everything in moderation though. Why do Wade fans have such a hard time admitting the guy flopped and fished for calls more than Kobe or Bron, and especially in that 06 run was getting retarded calls at will. 06 was one year his free throw rate was really insane.

for comparison.. first three peat michael jordan, same or even more athletic than Wade, and better at drawing fouls than Wade yet his FtR for the first three peat was 23 points below Wade's in 06.


Drawing fouls has always been a part of Wade's game but in one of the first years of the new rules changes when the rules became even laxer his free throw rate starts to explode.. and Kobe's, contrary to everyone that plays down 35 ppg, was no different than it was in the early 2000s when handchecking was still somewhat present.


You guys show a video of Wade doing euro steps for layups as evidence he didnt use the manuever to draw contact and get to the line all the time would be like me showing you a video of only Kobe makes when you were downplaying his FG.

And thats not even counting his patented move.

https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/dwayne-wade-fadeaway-and-1.gif

which happened to go in here because google search only tends to show the big highlight plays.. but generally the guy does that all the time with little hope of making the shot. It's purely used to get to the line, which once in a while isnt a bad thing but when its abused you start to get the harden vibe.

Meanwhile when Kobe uses fakes he usually does it to free space for a different shot, whether the below

http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/512b7d536bb3f78307000005/kobe-vince-carter.gif

or this

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/assets/3692787/kobescores.gif

its actually quite comical how kobe wont stop pump fakin until he gets the shot he wants.. so stubborn. Wade wouldve hooked the guy on the first half of the first pump.



Wade can be very effective with his baiting.. hes like a fox, and free throws are still points, but if you check a lot of the clutch 82 games stats, kobe was always on another level closing games offensively because of his elite on floor shot making ability. shooting prowess definitely comes into play there though too.



He has Wade confused with James Harden.

I would never insult James like that.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Considering how much you and MILLIONS of others hate Kobe, I would say that Kobe leading his team to the finals and winning 2/3 of them is more impressive. Especially after you said he couldn't do it without Shaq.

Wades performance was incredible though. I still watch the highlights of it .
You have to be ****ing kidding me. Nothing about Kobe's finals series' were memorable. He wasn't even the best player on his team in 2010

[CAstill]

You have to be ****ing kidding me. Nothing about Kobe's finals series' were memorable. He wasn't even the best player on his team in 2010

Yeah he was by far. You're just an idiot.

[JohnFreeman]

Euro step is fishing for calls?

huh

[ShawkFactory]

Euro step is fishing for calls?

huh
Seriously though.

homeboi been watching too much Harden

[GrapeApe]

My comment about ft's being viewed as a negative wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but it's in no way a straw man. There are a lot if people on this board who discredit players and performances due to ft's, as if they don't count or that a high ft total automatically equates to poor officiating.

I'll say it again, the ability to get to the line is one of the most important skills in basketball, and it IS a skill. If it was easy, every player would be shooting a lot of ft's. The fact is it's not easy and most players lack the skill and or intelligence it takes to get to the line with regularity. Wade's pump fake for example is an incredibly smart basketball play. The fake itself is outstanding, but Wade's timing and instincts are really what makes it effective. Players know it's coming and still continually get caught. That's skill, pure and simple. In terms of the team concept, I don't know the exact percentages but more often than not the team that shoots more ft's wins. Getting to the line is extremely advantageous and conducive to winning. This is a fact.

Getting back to the 2006 finals, and this is a significant point, but alot of the fouls committed against Wade were intentional to stop a score. For some reason that gets completely glossed over. Several of Wade's ft trips would have been dunks or layups if not for the foul (or easy scores for teammates). Had Dallas simply let him convert those plays without fouling, nobody would be questioning the officiating or Wade's ft totals. That's what's so ridiculous.

[InsanityKills]

Wade had 2nd highest peak ever:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Akhenaten]

Is freethrow rate number of freethrows relative to shots attempted at the rim/in the paint?
Or freethrows relative to overall number of attempted fg's?

[aj1987]

I never said getting to the line is a negative.. that is a strawman. Everything in moderation though. Why do Wade fans have such a hard time admitting the guy flopped and fished for calls more than Kobe or Bron, and especially in that 06 run was getting retarded calls at will. 06 was one year his free throw rate was really insane.

for comparison.. first three peat michael jordan, same or even more athletic than Wade, and better at drawing fouls than Wade yet his FtR for the first three peat was 23 points below Wade's in 06.


Drawing fouls has always been a part of Wade's game but in one of the first years of the new rules changes when the rules became even laxer his free throw rate starts to explode.. and Kobe's, contrary to everyone that plays down 35 ppg, was no different than it was in the early 2000s when handchecking was still somewhat present.
Dumbo, Kobe was getting 0.5 FT's per FGA in '05 and '98. Only 0.07 fewer than Wade at his HIGHEST. A jumpchucker with a FTr close to Wade's. :oldlol:



Wade can be very effective with his baiting.. hes like a fox, and free throws are still points, but if you check a lot of the clutch 82 games stats, kobe was always on another level closing games offensively because of his elite on floor shot making ability. shooting prowess definitely comes into play there though too.
Care to post them? I just checked Kobe's 2 title seasons and Wade's last elite season ('13). He wasn't far off.

http://s23.postimg.org/4z5yx6dzf/Screen_Shot_2016_02_19_at_7_44_50_PM.png
http://s23.postimg.org/z6eb5dmq3/Screen_Shot_2016_02_19_at_7_45_12_PM.png
http://s23.postimg.org/b1dlno2ff/Screen_Shot_2016_02_19_at_7_50_21_PM.png


The Heat wouldve been a 5th seed with 52 wins and faced Dallas in the first round.

And this:

"Unfortunately for Cuban and the Mavs, the rule changes he helped initiate contributed to Dallas’ loss to the Miami Heat in the 2006 NBA Finals. Dwyane Wade shot an NBA Finals record 97 free throws. To his credit, Wade attacked the basket relentlessly, but there were times when Maverick defenders beat Wade to a spot on the floor, had their arms to their sides, and were whistled for blocking fouls when Wade initiated contact. It was ridiculous. The Mavericks attempted 48 free throws in Game’s 5 and 6. Wade attempted 46 freebies over the same span"

is what im talking about.. you're showing stand still pictures of Wade acting like its proof.. so and so's leg touched wade's leg. I bet you show me the pic from the 11 Finals where he dropped to the floor on a half court buzzer beater pretending to have gotten hit in the eye next? The man has no shame.

Thats the thing, Wade is a master at creating contact, and then acting like you hit him.. thats his game.
Are you for real? Kobrick stans... :facepalm

[tpols]

aj, the stats you just posted from 2005 and 1998 regular seasons.. you do realize why Kobe's FtR looks higher in those years right? It's ft/fga.. look at that equation, and apply context from those years, and you will find your answer.


The clutch stats you just posted.. are not close.. you can look at it year by year. Kobe has a significant advantage in almost every recorded year, and we dont even have the data from the early 00s when he was leading the league in playoff clutch scoring, this is just OldBe.


We can do a 2009 / 2010 comparison on clutch scoring for peak Wade vs end prime Kobe since that seems to be a nice stretch where the two are compared...


2009 (http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM)

Kobe - 57 ppg on 46/40/92
Wade - 49 ppg on 47/28/73


2010 (http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM)

Kobe - 51 ppg on 44/36/82
Wade - 33 ppg on 39/29/67


Combined...

Kobe - 54 ppg on 45/38/87
Wade - 41 ppg on 44/29/70



Wade is worse across the board as a clutch scorer.. mostly because his jumper is flat broke compared to Kobe's.. look at those percentages outside FG.. overall efficiency is pitiful.

[aj1987]

aj, the stats you just posted from 2005 and 1998 regular seasons.. you do realize why Kobe's FtR looks higher in those years right? It's ft/fga.. look at that equation, and apply context from those years, and you will find your answer.
You literally have excuses galore for Kobe.



The clutch stats you just posted.. are not close.. you can look at it year by year. Kobe has a significant advantage in almost every recorded year, and we dont even have the data from the early 00s when he was leading the league in playoff clutch scoring, this is just OldBe.
Not close? Look at the FGA's.



We can do a 2009 / 2010 comparison on clutch scoring for peak Wade vs end prime Kobe since that seems to be a nice stretch where the two are compared...


2009

Kobe - 57 ppg on 46/40/92
Wade - 49 ppg on 47/28/73


2010

Kobe - 51 ppg on 44/36/82
Wade - 33 ppg on 39/29/67


Combined...

Kobe - 54 ppg on 45/38/87
Wade - 41 ppg on 44/29/70
Sure, prime Kobe with a stacked roster to help with the defensive pressure and Wade with nothing but garbage. Before you bring it up, Wade was garbage in '11 during the clutch and I know it for a fact.



Wade is worse across the board as a clutch scorer.. mostly because his jumper is flat broke compared to Kobe's.. look at those percentages outside FG.. overall efficiency is pitiful.
:roll: :roll:

For their careers, Wade is a 38.7% jump shooter and Kobe is at 39.3%. Unless I somehow completely ****ed up my math, Wade is like 0.6% worse as a jump shooter.

[Smoke117]

WTf? Now this Tpols clown is talking shit because of how good Wade's pump fake is...:biggums: These Kobe stans are just ridiculous.

[tpols]

you dont want to look at 2009, or 2010 Wade when he had less help (that that would make such a huge impact on an individuals clutch scoring is illogical anyways).. you dont wanna look at 2011 Wade when he had more help.. 2013 is going to help you.

What do you want to look at ? :oldlol: Those are like, some of Wade's best years in his career.


Bringing up 98 Kobe in the discussion .. like you made a point. Im comparing prime wade to prime jordan to prime Kobe, etc. you bring up stats, from 98 Kobe. you still dont see how your comparsons arent valid ?

[Wade's Rings]

You guys show a video of Wade doing euro steps for layups as evidence he didnt use the manuever to draw contact and get to the line all the time would be like me showing you a video of only Kobe makes when you were downplaying his FG.

In that video, he said he uses it to get around the defender (love how you avoided this). In that video there were 10-15 Euro steps easily, in any of them was the move used for contact? If it was you should be able to tell us when. That comparison was horrible, clearly highlight reels only show makes but that video was just showing his euro steps. You think when they made it, they went through like "lets make sure he's avoiding the defender on this one" "oh no he went for the foul, can't put that in"? :oldlol:
You're simply in the wrong on this one, just give it up.

[aj1987]

you dont want to look at 2009, or 2010 Wade when he had less help (that that would make such a huge impact on an individuals clutch scoring is illogical anyways).. you dont wanna look at 2011 Wade when he had more help.. 2013 is going to help you.

What do you want to look at ? :oldlol: Those are like, some of Wade's best years in his career.
So you want to use context only when Kobe's involved? :oldlol:



Bringing up 98 Kobe in the discussion .. like you made a point. Im comparing prime wade to prime jordan to prime Kobe, etc. you bring up stats, from 98 Kobe. you still dont see how your comparsons arent valid ?
Dude, '98 Kobe was shooting like 6 FT's on 11 shots a game. A ROLE-PLAYER getting that many FT's...

From '12-'16, Wade averaged fewer FT's per game than role-player Kobe in 4 shots more per game.

[tpols]

So you want to use context only when Kobe's involved? :oldlol:

how is this a response? I compared 09 and 10 Wade to kobe for clutch scoring, showing a thorough decimation.. you say we can't do that because Wade had shittier teams (despite the fact that everybody compares the two in those seasons all the time, but let's play along...) .. and then you say you don't want to look at 2011 when he gets a good team.. not only are you contradicting yourself, you're running out of years lol, your boys prime wasn't that long.



Dude, '98 Kobe was shooting like 6 FT's on 11 shots a game. A ROLE-PLAYER getting that many FT's...

From '12-'16, Wade averaged fewer FT's per game than role-player Kobe in 4 shots more per game.

I want to make apples to apples comparisons.. Kobe's high Ftr in 98 is a function of his low volume.. not the fact that he was getting crazy amounts of free throws. I'm comparing Ftrs at peak volumes.. Comparing guys at their best like the thread specifies. You bring up 98 kobe and can't even comprehend why the comparison is invalid.. oh well, some people just can't learn I guess.

[tpols]

In that video, he said he uses it to get around the defender (love how you avoided this). In that video there were 10-15 Euro steps easily, in any of them was the move used for contact? If it was you should be able to tell us when. That comparison was horrible, clearly highlight reels only show makes but that video was just showing his euro steps. You think when they made it, they went through like "lets make sure he's avoiding the defender on this one" "oh no he went for the foul, can't put that in"? :oldlol:
You're simply in the wrong on this one, just give it up.

Wade has used euro step move hundreds, if not thousands of times.. you provide a video of 10 to 15 of them and act like you're making some robust point.. k bud.


Let's step outside Wade for a sec.. have you ever seen Manu play? Euro step master, who just like Wade used it all the time to get a defender out of position to draw a foul.. I don't even have a huge gripe with doing that alone.. there's plenty of moves outside that he uses that are cheaper

[Wade's Rings]

Wade has used euro step move hundreds, if not thousands of times.. you provide a video of 10 to 15 of them and act like you're making some robust point.. k bud.

This is your 2nd time avoiding this, so I'll repeat it again. He said in the video that he uses the move to go around the defender. You're probably one of the very few morons on this planet that thinks he uses it to get fouls.



Let's step outside Wade for a sec.. have you ever seen Manu play? Euro step master, who just like Wade used it all the time to get a defender out of position to draw a foul.. I don't even have a huge gripe with doing that alone.. there's plenty of moves outside that he uses that are cheaper

That's not how Wade uses the move though :facepalm

[Akhenaten]

This is your 2nd time avoiding this, so I'll repeat it again. He said in the video that he uses the move to go around the defender. You're probably one of the very few morons on this planet that thinks he uses it to get fouls.




That's not how Wade uses the move though :facepalm

You're caught in the troll vortex my man, leave dude alone.

[knicksman]

how is this a response? I compared 09 and 10 Wade to kobe for clutch scoring, showing a thorough decimation.. you say we can't do that because Wade had shittier teams (despite the fact that everybody compares the two in those seasons all the time, but let's play along...) .. and then you say you don't want to look at 2011 when he gets a good team.. not only are you contradicting yourself, you're running out of years lol, your boys prime wasn't that long.




I want to make apples to apples comparisons.. Kobe's high Ftr in 98 is a function of his low volume.. not the fact that he was getting crazy amounts of free throws. I'm comparing Ftrs at peak volumes.. Comparing guys at their best like the thread specifies. You bring up 98 kobe and can't even comprehend why the comparison is invalid.. oh well, some people just can't learn I guess.

Bro. Talking to aj is like talking to a brick wall. Thats the reason hes a bran stan

[SamuraiSWISH]

In terms of Finals performance, absolutely. If LeBron shot better, scored just a bit more and actually won last year vs GSW it would've easily trumped it though. Ranking their performances in Finals wins:

1) Wade's 2006 Finals
2) LeBron's 2012 Finals
3) Kobe's 2009 Finals
4) LeBron's 2013 Finals
5) Kobe's 2010 Finals

Kobe's 2002 Finals
Wade's 2012 Finals
Kobe's 2001 Finals
Kobe's 2000 Finals
Wade's 2013 Finals

[Jacks3]

Alright Jacks3, show me a single series in 2001 or 2009 that was more impressive. And Kobe's 09' finals was no where near as impressive you dimwit. Kobe won as the favorite, Wade won as the underdog. Wade brought his team back from being down 0-2, Kobe started out the series 2-0 (since his team was vastly superior to the Magic). Kobe had an amazing finals in 09' don't get me wrong, but to say it was at least as good as Wade in 06' is ignorant and without facts. Kobe had what, more assists? That's a first
01'? Please show me a single series better than Wade in the 06' finals, oh wait, you can't. Kobe had a decent finals, and since everything else was a blowout and not in the finals, nothing compares. I know you love Kobe, but take a freaking look and realize that this performance is better than anything Kobe did. Still though, Kobe >>> Wade and is within the top 10 on my personal list

Let me explain it to you, dimwit.

1. The Magic (-6.4) were a far, far, far better defense than the 06 Mavs, who
were one of the worst Finals defenses ever.
2. The Lakers (113 ORTG) completely destroyed that historically great defense offensively and Bryant was BY FAR the biggest reason. He anchored that amazing offense with his scoring and play-making to a degree that was at least as great as what Wade did.
3. Bryant had a magnificent series defensively (easily better than Wade) and was the biggest reason by far that his team destroyed a great Magic team.

The type of impact you make on dominant teams is far more impressive than "carrying" your team to a lucky series win, which was won through the strength of the Heat offense, not their worst-in-the-league level ORTG. And Bryant wasn't playing eight on five.

So yeah, Bryant's performance was every bit as impressive when you consider the context. Deal with it.

[ShawkFactory]

Let me explain it to you, dimwit.

1. The Magic (-6.4) were a far, far, far better defense than the 06 Mavs, who
were one of the worst Finals defenses ever.
2. The Lakers (113 ORTG) completely destroyed that historically great defense offensively and Bryant was BY FAR the biggest reason. He anchored that amazing offense with his scoring and play-making to a degree that was at least as great as what Wade did.
3. Bryant had a magnificent series defensively (easily better than Wade) and was the biggest reason by far that his team destroyed a great Magic team.

The type of impact you make on dominant teams is far more impressive than "carrying" your team to a lucky series win, which was won through the strength of the Heat offense, not their worst-in-the-league level ORTG. And Bryant wasn't playing eight on five.

So yeah, Bryant's performance was every bit as impressive when you consider the context. Deal with it.
"Great" magic team :lol

[Jacks3]

Boom.

/end discussion.

Go home Jacky boy.

You're ****ing retarded, dude.

That chart is missing nearly half of Bryant's prime (01-04). A period where he torched a ton of elite defenses, and you still don't seem to understand that raw DRTG is useless when comparing across eras. The fact is, Bryant played better defenses in the post-season than any star in history (outside of Shaq)

Do I need to post this shit again?

oppDPAA" is opponent defensive points above average; it's league defensive rating minus team defensive rating. When there's an underscore, that's what it's weighted by -- "_mp" means it's weighted by minutes played in each game, and "_poss" means it's weighted by the individual possessions used in each game. So if you weight the average opponent Kobe's faced in his playoff career by the possessions he used in each game, their defensive rating has been 2.79 points/100 possessions better than the league average.

Shaquille O'Neal 4555 2.80
Kobe Bryant 4223 2.79
Karl Malone 3568 2.48
Tim Duncan 3563 0.84
Michael Jordan 3217 2.04
Scottie Pippen 2917 2.13
Tony Parker 2411 0.71
Richard Hamilton 2245 2.84
Reggie Miller 2149 3.10
Chauncey Billups 2139 2.33
Hakeem Olajuwon 2135 1.59
Gary Payton 2126 2.04
John Stockton 2079 2.22
Dirk Nowitzki 2061 1.69
Patrick Ewing 2052 2.49
Jason Kidd 2045 2.72
Steve Nash 2032 2.00
Rasheed Wallace 1996 2.73
Allen Iverson 1926 1.57
LeBron James 1854 2.35
Robert Horry 1843 1.87
Paul Pierce 1831 2.93
Clyde Drexler 1788 1.65
David Robinson 1772 0.92
Kevin Garnett 1705 1.25

Let's look at the players who faced the best Ds, weighted by minutes played by the top minute-getters?

Shaquille O'Neal 8087 4555 2.86
Kobe Bryant 7480 4223 2.80
Robert Horry 6813 1843 1.87
Tim Duncan 6739 3563 0.93
Karl Malone 6730 3568 2.66
Scottie Pippen 6580 2917 2.06
Rasheed Wallace 5683 1996 2.76
Gary Payton 5481 2126 2.30
Derek Fisher 5282 1466 2.92
Michael Jordan 5221 3217 2.07
Reggie Miller 5183 2149 3.14
Chauncey Billups 5174 2139 2.46
John Stockton 5172 2079 2.30
Jason Kidd 4953 2045 2.80
Richard Hamilton 4800 2245 2.93
Tony Parker 4796 2411 0.83
Horace Grant 4632 1202 2.04
Ben Wallace 4525 1035 2.31
Tayshaun Prince 4409 1371 2.95
Patrick Ewing 4319 2052 2.50
Dirk Nowitzki 4299 2061 1.73
Steve Nash 4196 2032 2.03
Bruce Bowen 4191 716 1.02
Hakeem Olajuwon 3922 2135 1.69
Michael Finley 3901 1282 1.38
Charles Oakley 3883 1184 2.82
David Robinson 3846 1772 1.01
Rasheed Wallace 5683 1996 2.76
Gary Payton 5481 2126 2.30
Derek Fisher 5282 1466 2.92
Michael Jordan 5221 3217 2.07
Reggie Miller 5183 2149 3.14
Chauncey Billups 5174 2139 2.46
John Stockton 5172 2079 2.30
Jason Kidd 4953 2045 2.80
Richard Hamilton 4800 2245 2.93
Tony Parker 4796 2411 0.83
Horace Grant 4632 1202 2.04
Ben Wallace 4525 1035 2.31
Tayshaun Prince 4409 1371 2.95
Patrick Ewing 4319 2052 2.50
Dirk Nowitzki 4299 2061 1.73
Steve Nash 4196 2032 2.03
Bruce Bowen 4191 716 1.02
Hakeem Olajuwon 3922 2135 1.69
Michael Finley 3901 1282 1.38
Charles Oakley 3883 1184 2.82
David Robinson 3846 1772 1.01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6142

Average D rating of opponent Defenses for star players in their prime:

PS Prime Avg. Opp Drtg ▾
Shaquille O’Neal 101.9
Kobe Bryant 102.6
Kevin Garnett 103.5
Dwyane Wade 103.7
Tim Duncan 103.7
Karl Malone 103.9
Steve Nash 103.9
Dirk Nowitzki 103.9
LeBron James 104.4
Michael Jordan 105
Larry Bird 105.5
Hakeem Olajuwon 105.8
Charles Barkley 105.8
David Robinson 106.5
Magic Johnson 106.

From the start of the Tim Duncan championship season in 1999 to the End of the Shaq/Kobe Lakers era in 2004 the yearwise league rating was 103.4 in the regular season and 103.0 in the playoffs. These 6 years were the 6 lowest for ORating/DRating in the last 25 regular seasons and included the lowest 5 for the last 25 playoff seasons. Kobe played more than 50+% of his playoff minutes during that span.

Here's some more numbers for your dumbass.

League-average ORTG from 2001-2004: 103.4
League-average ORTG from 2005-2010: 107.2

That's a HUGE difference and it's something your sill chart doesn't take into account AT ALL. Bryant's prime lasted far longer than Wade's (one of the many reasons why he's vastly superior all-time) and your dumbass chart doesn't account for that, nor does it account for the fact that you can have two defenses at 102 or lower and one can be far superior (see: 2011 Celtics vs 08 Celtics).

Let me repeat myself. Maybe it will finally get through your thick skull...

The "elite" defenses Wade saw weren't as dominant as what Bryant saw, nor did he see them as frequently. And as has mentioned, the defensive environment in which Bryant spent nearly half his prime was far tougher than what Wade saw.

Those are the facts, you stupid ****.

[Jacks3]

I didn't.


Yeah, you did. Try reading carefully.


Him injuring his rib on a jumpshot is because of his play style? :oldlol:

I'm showing what he did when he was healthy. You're including the injured Games just for your agenda.

Wade has a very long history of getting injured in the post-season? How doyou not understand this? You're picking and choosing which games to use and ignoring everything else...

And I'm the one with the agenda? ****ing idiot. :oldlol:




Your response was comparing them to the '04 & '05 Pistons. Using your own criteria they were the 2nd best defense in the League.

Jesus Christ. I was pointing out that going by ranking instead of the actual numbers (while taking into account the defensive environment) is the wrong way to go about things. Let me post the numbers again...maybe it will get through to you.

2004 Pistons after the Sheed trade: -11.5 pts relative to league-average DRTG
2005 Pistons: -5.2
2006 Pistons: -3.1

Those are the facts. The 04 and 05 Pistons aren't in the same universe.

[SouBeachTalents]

In terms of Finals performance, absolutely. If LeBron shot better, scored just a bit more and actually won last year vs GSW it would've easily trumped it though. Ranking their performances in Finals wins:

1) Wade's 2006 Finals
2) LeBron's 2012 Finals
3) Kobe's 2009 Finals
4) LeBron's 2013 Finals
5) Kobe's 2010 Finals

Kobe's 2002 Finals
Wade's 2012 Finals
Kobe's 2001 Finals
Kobe's 2000 Finals
Wade's 2013 Finals

I'd order them

1. '06 Wade
2. '12 LeBron
3. '09 Kobe
4. '13 LeBron
5. '02 Kobe
6. '10 Kobe
7. '01 Kobe
8. '12 Wade
9. '13 Wade
10. '00 Kobe

[eliteballer]

Mark Cuban is still pissed at the 2006 NBA Finals


"I think about Jack Nees. I think about Bennett Salvatore," Cuban said, naming a couple of retired referees. "I think about 937 free throws." Added Cuban: "It's the only Finals where you had other players asking if it's fixed. But you know I don't hold 10-year grudges." -- Source: ESPN.com

http://www.hothothoops.com/2016/2/4/10915482/mark-cuban-miami-heat-nba-finals-dwyane-wade-free-throws-fixed-quote

[aj1987]

http://www.hothothoops.com/2016/2/4/10915482/mark-cuban-miami-heat-nba-finals-dwyane-wade-free-throws-fixed-quote
Game 5. The pivotal game in the series. With about 3 minutes to go, Mav's get 2 FT's and are up by 3. Wade goes HAM and scored 9 points on 4-5 shooting with only 1 FT. Meanwhile, the Mav's get 4 FT's during the same period. In OT, Mav's get 6 FT's, compared to 2 for Miami (Wade was fouled on purpose). Ironically, they choked away the game at the FT line. Miami got 13 FT's in the 4th and OT, while the Mav's got 16.

Dirk himself had a chance to tie the 3rd game at the FT line, but he choked as well. Needed a CLUTCH AF jumper from GP to take the lead. Wade scored 15 points in the 4th Q and only 2 of them came from FT's. One of which was when he was fouled on purpose.

If that was a rig job, the NBA sucks ass at rigging games.

[Wade's Rings]

Yeah, you did. Try reading carefully.

This was your exact post.


Yawn. Looking at league rank is useless. You have to look at them relative to league-average to get a clear idea.

And Wade put up 26/5/4 on mediocre efficiency (51.9% TS, 104 ORTG) against the 05 Pistons. Hardly some great series. Sorry, but you can't just ignore entire games. Wade having shitty durability just can't be brushed aside.

And none of this changes the fact that the 06 Mavs weren't even top 10 in DRTG, spent the entire year being torched by perimeter stars, and were one of the weakest Finals defenses of the last 40 years. That's just a fact.

I never cut out any part because you never explained why it was better.



Wade has a very long history of getting injured in the post-season? How doyou not understand this? You're picking and choosing which games to use and ignoring everything else...

And I'm the one with the agenda? ****ing idiot. :oldlol:

If I was picking and choosing Games and ignoring everything else, I would ignore every bad game Wade has had when healthy. I picked the Games to show when healthy what he was doing to the Pistons. You're a grown man and you can't understand this? :oldlol:


Jesus Christ. I was pointing out that going by ranking instead of the actual numbers (while taking into account the defensive environment) is the wrong way to go about things. Let me post the numbers again...maybe it will get through to you.

2004 Pistons after the Sheed trade: -11.5 pts relative to league-average DRTG
2005 Pistons: -5.2
2006 Pistons: -3.1

Those are the facts. The 04 and 05 Pistons aren't in the same universe.

I said the '05 pistons were an Elite Defense. I never compared them to the '04 pistons :confusedshrug:

[Wade's Rings]

Game 5. The pivotal game in the series. With about 3 minutes to go, Mav's get 2 FT's and are up by 3. Wade goes HAM and scored 9 points on 4-5 shooting with only 1 FT. Meanwhile, the Mav's get 4 FT's during the same period. In OT, Mav's get 6 FT's, compared to 2 for Miami (Wade was fouled on purpose). Ironically, they choked away the game at the FT line. Miami got 13 FT's in the 4th and OT, while the Mav's got 16.

Dirk himself had a chance to tie the 3rd game at the FT line, but he choked as well. Needed a CLUTCH AF jumper from GP to take the lead. Wade scored 15 points in the 4th Q and only 2 of them came from FT's. One of which was when he was fouled on purpose.

If that was a rig job, the NBA sucks ass at rigging games.

So rigged when they let the Heat go down 0-2 and down 13 in Game 3 with 6:30 left.

[aj1987]

So rigged when they let the Heat go down 0-2 and down 13 in Game 3 with 6:30 left.
Yep. Wade scored something like 12 points on 6-8 shooting to get the team back into the game, IIRC.

[Wade's Rings]

Yep. Wade scored something like 12 points on 6-8 shooting to get the team back into the game, IIRC.

12pts on 5-7 shooting. The Heat shot 9 Free Throws after the 6:30 mark. 2 of those came from Dallas stopping a Haslem fastbreak, another 2 to stop a Shaq dunk, and another 2 were to stop the clock, rigged doe.