Rank these 2nd tier PF'sfrom the past 25 seasons?

[L.Kizzle]

The un-debatable best five power forwards over the past 25+ years or so. With Duncan coming out on top and ranking the other four however you please. Barkley, Malone, Garnett, Duncan and Nowitzki.

There were a couple other guys making some rumbling of there owns. And for a while, a few of these were in the conversation as the best PF in the league. For for one reason or another, they just never panned out.

-Shawn Kemp
-Chris Webber
-Rasheed Wallace
-Jermaine O'Neal
-Pau Gasol
-Zach Randolph
-Amar'e Stoudameire
-Chris Bosh

How would you rank these eight players?

[SouBeachTalents]

OP how did you settle on these 7? Just wondering why you left out players like Amar'e, Brand, Boozer etc.

[MMM]

Webb
Sheed
Kemp
JO
Gasol
Bosh
Randolph

[L.Kizzle]

OP how did you settle on these 7? Just wondering why you left out players like Amar'e, Brand, Boozer etc.
Good looking out, I actually forgot Amare. Thought about guys like Brand, Larry Johnson, ect. Didn't think one minute about Boozer though, lol.

[Aussie Dunker]

Brand was the first guy I thought of ^ Probably the best defensive player of the guys you listed plus consistently around the 20 point mark.

I think Peak Webber would be #1 on that list by quite a margin, I consider him a close 6th to those top 5 players you listed...

[MMM]

Good looking out, I actually forgot Amare. Thought about guys like Brand, Larry Johnson, ect. Didn't think one minute about Boozer though, lol.

I'd have Amare between Bosh and Zbo

[L.Kizzle]

Brand was the first guy I thought of ^ Probably the best defensive player of the guys you listed plus consistently around the 20 point mark.

I think Peak Webber would be #1 on that list by quite a margin, I consider him a close 6th to those top 5 players you listed...
Better defender than Jermaine O'Neal?

[MMM]

Brand was the first guy I thought of ^ Probably the best defensive player of the guys you listed plus consistently around the 20 point mark.

I think Peak Webber would be #1 on that list by quite a margin, I consider him a close 6th to those top 5 players you listed...

JO could be argued as the best defensive player on the list. Not only did he protect the rim but he would also draw offensive fouls. JO was the only star player that put his body on th line in such a manner. Sheed also has an argument because how he transformed a great defense to an historic one

[Aussie Dunker]

I think it's close, but good point, J.O was a better rim defender but I think Brand was a little more rounded on D, but both very good defenders in their prime.

J.O had that one ridiculous year (04 I think?) where he was just a freak on both ends,

[plowking]

Webber
Gasol
Amare
Kemp
JO
Bosh
Sheed
Randolph

EDIT: Didn't see Amare... Updated.

[MMM]

Brand might have the edge defending the post because of his broader base while JO was probably the better anchor/mobile defender. As for Sheed I would mention his great hands on defense and his ability to get deflections

[VeeCee15]

all hype and BS aside:

Gasol



Webber
Who cares

[bobopenguin]

The un-debatable best five power forwards over the past 25+ years or so. With Duncan coming out on top and ranking the other four however you please. Barkley, Malone, Garnett, Duncan and Nowitzki.

There were a couple other guys making some rumbling of there owns. And for a while, a few of these were in the conversation as the best PF in the league. For for one reason or another, they just never panned out.

-Shawn Kemp
-Chris Webber
-Rasheed Wallace
-Jermaine O'Neal
-Pau Gasol
-Zach Randolph
-Amar'e Stoudameire
-Chris Bosh

How would you rank these eight players?

these would pwn if not cos of injury.

[houston]

webbber
amare
gasol
o'neal
bosh
kemp
randolph
rasheed

[Legends66NBA7]

I'd put LMA in this too. Same with Griffin.

Or are they considered 1st tier ?

[feyki]

The un-debatable best five power forwards over the past 25+ years or so. With Duncan coming out on top and ranking the other four however you please. Barkley, Malone, Garnett, Duncan and Nowitzki.

There were a couple other guys making some rumbling of there owns. And for a while, a few of these were in the conversation as the best PF in the league. For for one reason or another, they just never panned out.

-Shawn Kemp
-Chris Webber
-Rasheed Wallace
-Jermaine O'Neal
-Pau Gasol
-Zach Randolph
-Amar'e Stoudameire
-Chris Bosh

How would you rank these eight players?

If i have pick for my team , that would Rasheed . Need for 3? He can . He was defensive monster . Hustle player . And perfect fit for PF position in my basketball vision . Btw , Horry had these capabilities too .

If i rank as individually , there ( I don't count Jermaine ) ;

Pau #1 , of course .

Webber #2

Rasheed and Bosh #3 and #4

Kemp and Amare #5 and #6

And last Zach .

[pastis]

Gasol is the best.

[pauk]

Offense (at their best, not just scoring, but everything offensively, scoring, versatility, passing, vision, efficiency, intangibles and how that translated for impact/making the team better):

1. Chris Webber
2. Pau Gasol
3. Amare Stoudemire
4. Jermaine O'Neal
5. Chris Bosh
6. Zach Randolph
7. Shawn Kemp
8. Rasheed Wallace

Defense (at their best, accolades/blocks/steals but mostly eye test considered):

1. Jermaine O'Neal
2. Shawn Kemp
3. Pau Gasol
4. Chris Webber
5. Rasheed Wallace
6. Amare Stoudemire
7. Zach Randolph
8. Chris Bosh

Most exciting to watch (in their prime):

1. SHAWN KEMP(!!)

*GAP*

2. Chris Webber
3. Amare Stoudemire
4. Pau Gasol
5. Jermaine O'Neal
6. Rasheed Wallace
7. Zach Randolph
8. Chris Bosh

Overall (both ends of the floor considered) / Individual talent-basketball ability / In Form / Peak:

1. Chris Webber
2. Pau Gasol
3. Amare Stoudemire
4. Jermaine O'Neal
5. Shawn Kemp
6. Zach Randolph
7. Chris Bosh
8. Rasheed Wallace

Accolades:

1. Pau Gasol
2. Chris Bosh
3. Chris Webber
4. Amare Stoudemire
5. Rasheed Wallace
6. Shawn Kemp
7. Jermaine O'Neal
8. Zach Randolph

CONCLUSION (if i would rank them all-time):

1. Pau Gasol
2. Chris Webber
3. Chris Bosh
...and the rest, no specific order.

[plowking]

Is anyone shocked that pauk rated Lebron's teammate second last? No? Thought so.

Even funnier is he somehow came last in defense. Behind Amare and Randolph apparently. And Chris Webber. Somehow one of the best pick and roll defenders of all time is ranked last... :oldlol:

[pauk]

Is anyone shocked that pauk rated Lebron's teammate second last? No? Thought so.

I think people are less shocked that you yet again randomly without any basis or argument or context bring up LEBRON (in a thread that has nothing to do with him) and then point out posters basketball assumptions to be agenda driven like that, when the fact is YOU are agenda driven (hates Lebron hence wants to glorify his teammates/help, free rent for Lebron)....

Now to the subject, as you can see there is many categories, some where Bosh is pretty high up... what category are you speaking of? I think its pretty fair and objective, i thought this through and i have seen all of these players careers/primes, would gladly debate you on any of those what you think are "wrongdoings" against Bosh here.... because im such a stan or something, to the point where i feel like degrading anything that isnt Lebron... sad.. :facepalm



Even funnier is he somehow came last in defense. Behind Amare and Randolph apparently. And Chris Webber. Somehow one of the best pick and roll defenders of all time is ranked last... :oldlol:

Chris Bosh is a safe pick here for being the worst defender ive seen out of these, Zach aswell... Amare at his peak was actually somewhat better there than both believe it or not, my opinion, please learn to deal with it.

What do you want? Should i just place Chris Bosh at the top of every category to make you happy? :rolleyes:

Now please either make a contribution to this thread by posting your rank / assumptions on these 8 PFs..... or at least stop derailing the thread with your free rents & accusations....

[Dr Hawk]

1. Pau Gasol
2. Chris Webber
3. Chris Bosh
4. Shawn Kemp
5. Rasheed Wallace
6. Zach Randolph
7. Amare Stoudemire
8. Jermaine O'Neal

[Goro]

The un-debatable best five power forwards over the past 25+ years or so. With Duncan coming out on top and ranking the other four however you please. Barkley, Malone, Garnett, Duncan and Nowitzki.

There were a couple other guys making some rumbling of there owns. And for a while, a few of these were in the conversation as the best PF in the league. For for one reason or another, they just never panned out.

-Shawn Kemp
-Chris Webber
-Rasheed Wallace
-Jermaine O'Neal
-Pau Gasol
-Zach Randolph
-Amar'e Stoudameire
-Chris Bosh

How would you rank these eight players?

Tough rankings, but:
Gasol
Sheed
Webber
Bosh
O'Neal
Kemp
Stoudamire
Randolph

I gave precedence to those who proved good on their own and good in the team game.

[JohnnySic]

On what planet is Webber 2nd tier?

[plowking]

Now to the subject, as you can see there is many categories, some where Bosh is pretty high up...

Which ones? lol... He is in the bottom half of every single one apart from accolades. :oldlol:
Basically, once again your agenda is kicking in, and you're pretending as if the worst player according to you somehow gets ranked better due to accolades he accomplished with his teammates, or teammate in this case (Lebron). Great way to prop up your boy.



Chris Bosh is a safe pick here for being the worst defender ive seen out of these, Zach aswell... Amare at his peak was actually somewhat better there than both believe it or not, my opinion, please learn to deal with it.

In what way is Amare a better defender than Bosh? Better yet, how is Zach Randolph a better one? There are screenshots in game in here absolutely clowning Amare due to his bad positioning and defense.
Zach Randolph averages .3bpg and .8spg as a damn PF. Not to mention has some of the slowest feet ever. How is Bosh worse than him? Go ahead and explain it.
Bosh just kills them in consistency in the advanced statistics too.


What do you want? Should i just place Chris Bosh at the top of every category to make you happy? :rolleyes:

How about just being unbiased? That would be a start.


Now please either make a contribution to this thread by posting your rank / assumptions on these 8 PFs..... or at least stop derailing the thread with your free rents & accusations....

I already did. They were far better than your rankings.

[Mass Debator]

Defense (at their best, accolades/blocks/steals but mostly eye test considered):

1. Jermaine O'Neal
2. Shawn Kemp
3. Pau Gasol
4. Chris Webber
5. Rasheed Wallace
6. Amare Stoudemire
7. Zach Randolph
8. Chris Bosh

1. Chris Bosh is a better pick-and-roll defender than everyone on this list or at least on par with the best.

2. Chris Bosh is only behind Jermaine, Gasol, and Sheed when it came to protecting the rim. His length, timing (more so positioning), and his ability to jump straight up alters shots that doesn't appear on the stat sheet.

3. Man-on-man is where he may end up bottom 2 but all the bad memories about him was him playing at center. At the 4 spot, he is pretty average still but held his own in big moments.

In conclusion, he's not top 3 on the list but he's certainly not below Z-Bo, Amare, and Webber.

[Goro]

Defense (at their best, accolades/blocks/steals but mostly eye test considered):

1. Jermaine O'Neal
2. Shawn Kemp
3. Pau Gasol
4. Chris Webber
5. Rasheed Wallace
6. Amare Stoudemire
7. Zach Randolph
8. Chris Bosh


Kemp overrated at D (really not very good), Bosh and Wallace underrated at D. Amare and Randolph are clearly the worst defenders on the list, and the most versatile defender (Bosh) is somehow below them. In other words, this is terrible rankings with essentially the top spot being the only part that is accurate.

[feyki]

Kemp overrated at D (really not very good), Bosh and Wallace underrated at D. Amare and Randolph are clearly the worst defenders on the list, and the most versatile defender (Bosh) is somehow below them. In other words, this is terrible rankings with essentially the top spot being the only part that is accurate.

That's absurd man . Kemp was beast on D . Easily best defender of that group .

[CAstill]

That's absurd man . Kemp was beast on D . Easily best defender of that group .

Isn't it funny when they expose themselves? Obviously has no idea what he's talking about lol. Kemp at his peak is the best of the group, he just didn't have the longevity.

[90sgoat]

-Shawn Kemp
-Chris Webber
-Rasheed Wallace
-Jermaine O'Neal
-Pau Gasol
-Zach Randolph
-Amar'e Stoudameire
-Chris Bosh

How would you rank these eight players?

1. Chris Webber - at his best was MVP candidate and had great range, strong rebounder, great passer, above average low post offense, decent defense. Very smart player, only held back by perceived mental strength.

2. Shawn Kemp - peak Kemp was a true monster with range out to the 3 point line in addition to dunking on fools left and right. He was what Blake Griffin wished he could be. Very strong defender and shotblocker and rebounder too.

3. Pau Gasol - criminally underrated and if played right is and was one of the best power forwards. Great range, great low post offense, great passing, but lacks toughness and takes too much time off on D at times.

4. Rasheed Wallace

5. Chris Bosh

6. Zack Randolph

7. Jermaine O'Neal

8. Amare Stoudemire

[kshutts1]

The un-debatable best five power forwards over the past 25+ years or so. With Duncan coming out on top and ranking the other four however you please. Barkley, Malone, Garnett, Duncan and Nowitzki.

There were a couple other guys making some rumbling of there owns. And for a while, a few of these were in the conversation as the best PF in the league. For for one reason or another, they just never panned out.

-Shawn Kemp
-Chris Webber
-Rasheed Wallace
-Jermaine O'Neal
-Pau Gasol
-Zach Randolph
-Amar'e Stoudameire
-Chris Bosh

How would you rank these eight players?

Just real quick, and I'm ranking on ability/talent rather than accolades. Nor is this indicative of GOAT rankings, but just straight up "Who did I want on my team if I'm trying to win a title".

Also, I took the liberty of adding in Brand, and taking out Zach (wtf?).

Webber
Pau
Brand
Jermaine
Kemp (I didn't watch the NBA "intelligently" when he was in his prime, so my opinion could be skewed/way off base)
Bosh
Amare
Sheed *edit cuz I forgot him*

[Goro]

That's absurd man . Kemp was beast on D . Easily best defender of that group .
About 2 years of good D does not make him the best of the group. Especially when you got guys like O'Neal and Wallace who made careers of good D.

[kshutts1]

I always want to give a shout-out to Abdur-Rahim and Kevin Willis. May be some other players that I'm forgetting, as well.

[Goro]

I always want to give a shout-out to Abdur-Rahim and Kevin Willis. May be some other players that I'm forgetting, as well.
One of the most overrated players of the era. Terrible defense and got his name by being a volume shooting PF with terrible efficiency on bad teams.

[Kblaze8855]

Something like....


Webber

Pau

Amare(due to how brief he was the real Amare...he was arguably better vs the Spurs in 05 than anyone on this list ever was)

Kemp(foul trouble...)

Rasheed(by his own choosing...higher as a talent...around here by performance...maybe lower)

Zach(more respect for what he did in the playoffs for Memphis than anything Jermaine or Bosh did)

Jermaine/Bosh



Im not terribly married to the order other than knowing who was #1.

[feyki]

About 2 years of good D does not make him the best of the group. Especially when you got guys like O'Neal and Wallace who made careers of good D.

O neal was center . Beside of him , Only Rasheed close to him . Not 2 bro , 5-6 years .

[CAstill]

About 2 years of good D does not make him the best of the group. Especially when you got guys like O'Neal and Wallace who made careers of good D.

It wasn't only 2 years, so you're very misinformed. Kemp was a defensive beast for about 8.

[Goro]

O neal was center . Beside of him , Only Rasheed close to him . Not 2 bro , 5-6 years .
Good point about O'Neal. He was definitely a PF/C mix.

Even Kemp's prime years he was overrated on D. He was a gambler who wasn't great at staying in front of his man. He was well known for swiping at balls, which led to some decent steals and blocks, but also some really dumb fouls. He has a very absurd amount of fouls even when he was in his prime. This led to easy points for the other team at the free throw line, team fouls, and often sitting at the end of games. That is not great D even if people look at the stats and think that made him a good defender.

[ArbitraryWater]

2nd-4th tier PF's of 2000's-2010's

Griffin
Gasol
Webber

Stoudemire
Kemp
Randolph
Wallace

Aldridge
Bosh
Boozer

[kshutts1]

One of the most overrated players of the era. Terrible defense and got his name by being a volume shooting PF with terrible efficiency on bad teams.

I disagree with that assessment of Abdur-Rahim, but what I find most odd is that you rip him that way, yet had no apparent issue with the inclusion of Zach Randolph, who's also got terrible defense and is a volume-shooting PF with bad efficiency on a GOOD team (hint: Being on a good team makes it more difficult to be inefficient. You almost have to try).

[feyki]

Good point about O'Neal. He was definitely a PF/C mix.

Even Kemp's prime years he was overrated on D. He was a gambler who wasn't great at staying in front of his man. He was well known for swiping at balls, which led to some decent steals and blocks, but also some really dumb fouls. He has a very absurd amount of fouls even when he was in his prime. This led to easy points for the other team at the free throw line, team fouls, and often sitting at the end of games. That is not great D even if people look at the stats and think that made him a good defender.

That point like mentioned Ibaka as a bad defender . I don't think so . Kemp was best on ball defender of that group . And third best rim protector after Rasheed and Pau .

[Goro]

I disagree with that assessment of Abdur-Rahim, but what I find most odd is that you rip him that way, yet had no apparent issue with the inclusion of Zach Randolph, who's also got terrible defense and is a volume-shooting PF with bad efficiency on a GOOD team (hint: Being on a good team makes it more difficult to be inefficient. You almost have to try).
Because Randolph was good for good teams too despite bad D. Not sure how you can even compare the 2. Shareef never even made the playoffs.

Randolph has more 20/10 seasons and his best seasons his best seasons he had respectable fg% (hovering around 50%). Meanwhile when Shareef was at his peak, he was closer to 45% fg. Reef made his name for playing for the bottom of the barrel. Randolph made his actually helping teams win.

All of that said, I had Randolph ranked last when I ranked the original list of guys we were asked to rank. I clearly don't gush over him.

[Goro]

That point like mentioned Ibaka as a bad defender . I don't think so . Kemp was best on ball defender of that group . And third best rim protector after Rasheed and Pau .
Multiple seasons of leading the league in fouls. Dumb dumb fouls even in his prime. I'm not talking just getting fouls for being aggressive, but fouling because somebody is running around him and he just swipes. He was not a smart defender.

[Goro]

2nd-4th tier PF's of 2000's-2010's

Griffin
Gasol
Webber

Stoudemire
Kemp
Randolph
Wallace

Aldridge
Bosh
Boozer
I disagree with this spacing. Wallace needs higher, Randolph needs lower, Bosh needs higher.

[Goro]

On what planet is Webber 2nd tier?
I assume a planet with a limited 1st tier with guys like Duncan, Malone, KG, Dirk, and Barkley on top.

[feyki]

Multiple seasons of leading the league in fouls. Dumb dumb fouls even in his prime. I'm not talking just getting fouls for being aggressive, but fouling because somebody is running around him and he just swipes. He was not a smart defender.

I agree . But every player has some lacks . This isn't mean he wasn't good defender .

[Goro]

I agree . But every player has some lacks . This isn't mean he wasn't good defender .
Slapping at defenders when you get burned by them is pretty bad D, and certainly takes him down from being near the top of those PFs at D.

[kshutts1]

Because Randolph was good for good teams too despite bad D. Not sure how you can even compare the 2. Shareef never even made the playoffs.

Randolph has more 20/10 seasons and his best seasons his best seasons he had respectable fg% (hovering around 50%). Meanwhile when Shareef was at his peak, he was closer to 45% fg. Reef made his name for playing for the bottom of the barrel. Randolph made his actually helping teams win.

All of that said, I had Randolph ranked last when I ranked the original list of guys we were asked to rank. I clearly don't gush over him.
Seems as though we agree for the most part, and anything beyond that is just nitpicking. Just want to point out that I can't think of a single player that shot a better percentage as the go-to player on a bad team than they did as a supporting player on a good team. So to use FG% as an argument against Shareef seems silly.

There may be other, more appropriate ways in which Randolph is better, but other than superior rebounding I see nothing separating them.

That said, I'm not familiar with your name, but you speak intelligently about the game, and I enjoy and appreciate it. I hope you continue to be active, and that our paths cross more in the future.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Did Pauk seriously rate Pau as a better defender than Sheed

:roll: :roll:

[72-10]

I thought Amar'e sucks at D though?

[Dresta]

Did Pauk seriously rate Pau as a better defender than Sheed

:roll: :roll:
And that wasn't even the most ridiculous thing in his defensive rankings: he had Bosh ranked last somehow :oldlol: .

[L.Kizzle]

I see a lot of folks counting JO as a center. True he did play center also, but at his best he was a PF. Brad Miller was the starting center in Indiana for those years and he would start most all-star games alongside Ben Wallace.

[CAstill]

Slapping at defenders when you get burned by them is pretty bad D, and certainly takes him down from being near the top of those PFs at D.

Quit talking out your ass. Kemp was the best perimeter trapping player in the NBA. He was the reason the sonics were so good in half court pressure. When he was young I agree he was in foul trouble often but that's how the league officiated in the 90's. They would call the fouls on young players even when an older player committed the foul. The NBA was all about right to passage and then quit in mid 2000's. From 95 on he wasn't in constant foul trouble anymore. Plus there wasn't players burning him on D. He was one of the fastest players in the league, your whole assessment on him is wrong and garbage.

[CAstill]

The un-debatable best five power forwards over the past 25+ years or so. With Duncan coming out on top and ranking the other four however you please. Barkley, Malone, Garnett, Duncan and Nowitzki.

There were a couple other guys making some rumbling of there owns. And for a while, a few of these were in the conversation as the best PF in the league. For for one reason or another, they just never panned out.

-Shawn Kemp
-Chris Webber
-Rasheed Wallace
-Jermaine O'Neal
-Pau Gasol
-Zach Randolph
-Amar'e Stoudameire
-Chris Bosh

How would you rank these eight players?

Kemp
Webber


Wallace
Bosh
Gasol


O'Neal
Randolph
Stoudameire

[plowking]

Kemp
Webber


Wallace
Bosh
Gasol


O'Neal
Randolph
Stoudameire

Your rankings might be worse than pauks. I'm not even sure you have an agenda though. :oldlol:

[CAstill]

Your rankings might be worse than pauks. I'm not even sure you have an agenda though. :oldlol:

You're a clown but it's okay. I went off skills and peak dominance against the group of players. Is this suppose to be a career list because that would look different.

[Goro]

Quit talking out your ass. Kemp was the best perimeter trapping player in the NBA. He was the reason the sonics were so good in half court pressure. When he was young I agree he was in foul trouble often but that's how the league officiated in the 90's. They would call the fouls on young players even when an older player committed the foul. The NBA was all about right to passage and then quit in mid 2000's. From 95 on he wasn't in constant foul trouble anymore. Plus there wasn't players burning him on D. He was one of the fastest players in the league, your whole assessment on him is wrong and garbage.

lol, I'm talking out of my ass but you say he stopped getting in foul trouble from 95 on? Is that why he was 1 foul away from being the foul leader for 1995 and 1996? He led the league in fouls in 96-97 and 99-00. He was 3rd in fouls in 1998.

[CAstill]

lol, I'm talking out of my ass but you say he stopped getting in foul trouble from 95 on? Is that why he was 1 foul away from being the foul leader for 1995 and 1996? He led the league in fouls in 96-97 and 99-00. He was 3rd in fouls in 1998.

Yeah that includes technical fouls too which he was notorious for but it didn't make him a bad defender. He struck fear in his opponents.