2016 Nba Open Court - Shaq On Center

[jongib369]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-pJbs-tUps

Isiah at 6:35 :roll: :roll:

http://oi66.tinypic.com/hvdv7c.jpg

[3ball]

.
Centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to wing players, but the advantage they give their team depends on how their impact compares to other CENTERS, not the wing players.

For example, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE when his defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pippen/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP of their position defensively, while he didn't - Shaq only achieved three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. So on average, perennial 1st team defenders like MJ/Pippen/Lebron gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided their team with a bigger defensive impact.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DPBM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, center Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team?????. Again, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "defensive box score" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact that a player can provide.. But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact - the main point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams - they ranked in the league's top 6 defensive teams only 1 time in 15 years thru his Miami days, and top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even though Shaq had all-pro defenders Eddie Jones, Kobe, Wade and Horace Grant (in 1995 and 1996).

He also had Alonzo Mourning in 2006, who led the Heat bench (2.7 blocks in 20 minutes).. In 2001, his team had the 21st ranked defense despite being stacked defensively with all-pro defender Kobe and other solid defenders like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and Horace Grant (he started every game).



Shaq's all-defensive teammates:

Horace Grant 2
Eddie Jones 2
Kobe Bryant 5
Dwayne Wade 1
________________
4 teammates.. 10 times... 4 of 15 seasons with zero all-def teammates




MJ's all-defensive teammates:

Scottie Pippen 6
Horace Grant 1
Dennis Rodman 1
_________________
3 teammates... 8 times... 5 of 11 seasons with zero all-def teammates




Shaq's team's defensive ranks thru his Miami days:

1993 Orlando: 12*
1994 Orlando: 15
1995 Orlando: 13
1996 Orlando: 12
1997 Lakers: 8*
1998 Lakers: 11
1999 Lakers: 23
2000 Lakers: 1
2001 Lakers: 21
2002 Lakers: 7
2003 Lakers: 19
2004 Lakers: 8
2005 Miami: 6
2006 Miami: 9*
2007 Miami: 8*
_________________
11.5 average

(asterisk means no all-defensive players on team)



Jordan's team's defensive ranks as Bull

1985 Bulls: 20*
1987 Bulls: 11*
1988 Bulls: 3*
1989 Bulls: 11*
1990 Bulls: 19*
1991 Bulls: 7
1992 Bulls: 4
1993 Bulls: 7
1996 Bulls: 1
1997 Bulls: 4
1998 Bulls: 3
_______________
8.18 average




Conclusion: Considering Shaq had all-defensive wing teammates his entire career (and frontcourt player Horace in Orlando), there's no excuse for Shaq NOT being the difference that drove teams to elite defensive status like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing's did... Instead, his teams were almost NEVER great defensive teams - they were top 6 in defense 1 in 15 years (thru his Miami days) and top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.. Shaq simply wasn't a great defender relative to the elite defenders at his position and vastly underachieved defensively... Furthermore, his lack of work ethic and lazy mentality permeated his teams.

Otoh, Jordan's teams were rated higher defensively his entire career, despite having less all-defensive teammates.. This shouldn't be surprising since Jordan gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - Jordan was the far superior defender relative to his peers than Shaq, and his far superior work ethic/mentality rubbed off on the entire team.

[keep-itreal]

all he did was elbow his opponent on his way to the basket

[Uncle Drew]

.
Centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to wing players, but the advantage they give their team compared to those wing players depends on how their impact compares to other CENTERS, not the wing players.

For example, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE when his defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pippen/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP of their position defensively, while he didn't - Shaq only achieved three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. So on average, perennial 1st team defenders like MJ/Pippen/Lebron gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided their team with a bigger defensive impact.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DPBM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, center Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team?????. Again, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "defensive box score" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact that a player can provide.. But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact - the main point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams - they ranked in the league's top 6 defensive teams only 1 time in 15 years thru his Miami days, and top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even though Shaq had all-pro defenders Eddie Jones, Kobe, Wade and Horace Grant (in 1995 and 1996).

He also had Alonzo Mourning in 2006, who led the Heat bench (2.7 blocks in 20 minutes).. In 2001, his team had the 21st ranked defense despite being stacked defensively with all-pro defender Kobe and other solid defenders like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and Horace Grant (he started every game).



Shaq's all-defensive teammates:

Horace Grant 2
Eddie Jones 2
Kobe Bryant 5
Dwayne Wade 1
________________
4 teammates.. 10 times... 4 of 15 seasons with zero all-def teammates




MJ's all-defensive teammates:

Scottie Pippen 6
Horace Grant 1
Dennis Rodman 1
_________________
3 teammates... 8 times... 5 of 11 seasons with zero all-def teammates




Shaq's team's defensive ranks thru his Miami days:

1993 Orlando: 12*
1994 Orlando: 15
1995 Orlando: 13
1996 Orlando: 12
1997 Lakers: 8*
1998 Lakers: 11
1999 Lakers: 23
2000 Lakers: 1
2001 Lakers: 21
2002 Lakers: 7
2003 Lakers: 19
2004 Lakers: 8
2005 Miami: 6
2006 Miami: 9*
2007 Miami: 8*
_________________
11.5 average

(asterisk means no all-defensive players on team)



Jordan's team's defensive ranks as Bull

1985 Bulls: 20*
1987 Bulls: 11*
1988 Bulls: 3*
1989 Bulls: 11*
1990 Bulls: 19*
1991 Bulls: 7
1992 Bulls: 4
1993 Bulls: 7
1996 Bulls: 1
1997 Bulls: 4
1998 Bulls: 3
_______________
8.18 average




Conclusion: Considering Shaq had all-defensive wing teammates his entire career (and frontcourt player Horace in Orlando), there's no excuse for Shaq NOT being the difference that drove teams to elite defensive status like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing's did... Instead, his teams were almost NEVER great defensive teams - they were top 6 in defense 1 in 15 years (thru his Miami days) and top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.. Shaq simply wasn't a great defender relative to the elite defenders at his position and vastly underachieved defensively... Furthermore, his lack of work ethic and lazy mentality permeated his teams.

Otoh, Jordan's teams were rated higher defensively his entire career, despite having less all-defensive teammates.. This shouldn't be surprising since Jordan gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - Jordan was the far superior defender relative to his peers than Shaq, and his far superior work ethic/mentality rubbed off on the entire team.
This is beyond trolling, this is straight up satire.

[3ball]

This is beyond trolling, this is straight up satire.
Centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to wing players, but the advantage they give their team depends on how their impact compares to other CENTERS, not the wing players.

Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE when his defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center..

This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pippen/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP of their position defensively, while he didn't - Shaq only achieved three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. So on average, perennial 1st team defenders like MJ/Pippen/Lebron gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided their team with a bigger defensive impact.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DPBM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, center Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team?????. Again, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "defensive box score" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact that a player can provide.. But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact - the main point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams - they ranked in the league's top 6 defensive teams only 1 time in 15 years thru his Miami days, and top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even though Shaq had all-pro defenders Eddie Jones, Kobe, Wade and Horace Grant (in 1995 and 1996).

He also had Alonzo Mourning in 2006, who led the Heat bench (2.7 blocks in 20 minutes).. In 2001, his team had the 21st ranked defense despite being stacked defensively with all-pro defender Kobe and other solid defenders like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and Horace Grant (he started every game).
.

[Uncle Drew]

Centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to wing players, but the advantage they give their team depends on how their impact compares to other CENTERS, not the wing players.

Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE when his defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center..

This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pippen/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP of their position defensively, while he didn't - Shaq only achieved three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. So on average, perennial 1st team defenders like MJ/Pippen/Lebron gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided their team with a bigger defensive impact.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DPBM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, center Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team?????. Again, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "defensive box score" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact that a player can provide.. But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact - the main point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams - they ranked in the league's top 6 defensive teams only 1 time in 15 years thru his Miami days, and top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even though Shaq had all-pro defenders Eddie Jones, Kobe, Wade and Horace Grant (in 1995 and 1996).

He also had Alonzo Mourning in 2006, who led the Heat bench (2.7 blocks in 20 minutes).. In 2001, his team had the 21st ranked defense despite being stacked defensively with all-pro defender Kobe and other solid defenders like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and Horace Grant (he started every game).
.
Centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to wing players, but the advantage they give their team compared to those wing players depends on how their impact compares to other CENTERS, not the wing players.

For example, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE when his defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pippen/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP of their position defensively, while he didn't - Shaq only achieved three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. So on average, perennial 1st team defenders like MJ/Pippen/Lebron gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided their team with a bigger defensive impact.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DPBM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, center Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team?????. Again, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "defensive box score" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact that a player can provide.. But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact - the main point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams - they ranked in the league's top 6 defensive teams only 1 time in 15 years thru his Miami days, and top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even though Shaq had all-pro defenders Eddie Jones, Kobe, Wade and Horace Grant (in 1995 and 1996).

He also had Alonzo Mourning in 2006, who led the Heat bench (2.7 blocks in 20 minutes).. In 2001, his team had the 21st ranked defense despite being stacked defensively with all-pro defender Kobe and other solid defenders like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and Horace Grant (he started every game).



Shaq's all-defensive teammates:

Horace Grant 2
Eddie Jones 2
Kobe Bryant 5
Dwayne Wade 1
________________
4 teammates.. 10 times... 4 of 15 seasons with zero all-def teammates




MJ's all-defensive teammates:

Scottie Pippen 6
Horace Grant 1
Dennis Rodman 1
_________________
3 teammates... 8 times... 5 of 11 seasons with zero all-def teammates




Shaq's team's defensive ranks thru his Miami days:

1993 Orlando: 12*
1994 Orlando: 15
1995 Orlando: 13
1996 Orlando: 12
1997 Lakers: 8*
1998 Lakers: 11
1999 Lakers: 23
2000 Lakers: 1
2001 Lakers: 21
2002 Lakers: 7
2003 Lakers: 19
2004 Lakers: 8
2005 Miami: 6
2006 Miami: 9*
2007 Miami: 8*
_________________
11.5 average

(asterisk means no all-defensive players on team)



Jordan's team's defensive ranks as Bull

1985 Bulls: 20*
1987 Bulls: 11*
1988 Bulls: 3*
1989 Bulls: 11*
1990 Bulls: 19*
1991 Bulls: 7
1992 Bulls: 4
1993 Bulls: 7
1996 Bulls: 1
1997 Bulls: 4
1998 Bulls: 3
_______________
8.18 average




Conclusion: Considering Shaq had all-defensive wing teammates his entire career (and frontcourt player Horace in Orlando), there's no excuse for Shaq NOT being the difference that drove teams to elite defensive status like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing's did... Instead, his teams were almost NEVER great defensive teams - they were top 6 in defense 1 in 15 years (thru his Miami days) and top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.. Shaq simply wasn't a great defender relative to the elite defenders at his position and vastly underachieved defensively... Furthermore, his lack of work ethic and lazy mentality permeated his teams.

Otoh, Jordan's teams were rated higher defensively his entire career, despite having less all-defensive teammates.. This shouldn't be surprising since Jordan gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - Jordan was the far superior defender relative to his peers than Shaq, and his far superior work ethic/mentality rubbed off on the entire team.

[3ball]

This is beyond trolling, this is straight up satire.
Show me where the post is trolling.

There isn't a single illogical statement in it..

It's been vetted quite a bit... Even Lazeruss and Duffy Pratt ended up agreeing with it.. That's the final version.

[Uncle Drew]

Show me where the post is trolling.

There isn't a single illogical statement in it..

It's been vetted quite a bit... Even Lazeruss and Duffy Pratt ended up agreeing with it.. That's the final version.
That may be so, but:

Centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to wing players, but the advantage they give their team compared to those wing players depends on how their impact compares to other CENTERS, not the wing players.

For example, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE when his defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pippen/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP of their position defensively, while he didn't - Shaq only achieved three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. So on average, perennial 1st team defenders like MJ/Pippen/Lebron gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided their team with a bigger defensive impact.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DPBM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, center Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team?????. Again, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "defensive box score" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact that a player can provide.. But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact - the main point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams - they ranked in the league's top 6 defensive teams only 1 time in 15 years thru his Miami days, and top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even though Shaq had all-pro defenders Eddie Jones, Kobe, Wade and Horace Grant (in 1995 and 1996).

He also had Alonzo Mourning in 2006, who led the Heat bench (2.7 blocks in 20 minutes).. In 2001, his team had the 21st ranked defense despite being stacked defensively with all-pro defender Kobe and other solid defenders like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and Horace Grant (he started every game).