In 09 Kobe and Wade were Top 2

[HOoopCityJones]

True or False?

[Cocaine80s]

False, Lebron and Wade

[Uncle Drew]

Depends if you're a huge Kobe sucker or not.

[Black and White]

Bron deserves a mention, this year was like the start of him taking over Kobe as the best player in the world

[ImKobe]

09 Kobe was the best player in the world, just ask Lebron

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84


that was the consensus at the time.

[HylianNightmare]

Howard could certainly make a case

[GrapeApe]

I'd say false. I have Wade and Lebron as 1 and 2. They have slightly better numbers than Kobe and finshed 3rd and 2nd respectively in DPOY. Among those three players, Wade was the leader in scoring, fg%, assists, blocks, and steals. Lebron was the leader in rebounding and PER.

(I'm only taking individual performance into condiderstion, not team record)

[Prime_Shaq]

Howard could certainly make a case
In 2009? I don't think so... In 2010 and 2011 maybe. 2011 definitely IMO

[Lebron23]

http://origin.nba.com/2009/images/05/05/lebron-mvp.jpg

LeBron deserved his first MVP Award. 29/8/9. And his team won 66 games with Mo Williams as his 2nd best player.

[Gileraracer]

http://origin.nba.com/2009/images/05/05/lebron-mvp.jpg

LeBron deserved his first MVP Award. 29/8/9. And his team won 66 games with Mo Williams as his 2nd best player.

That's the reason he had to collude.

[ImKobe]

http://origin.nba.com/2009/images/05/05/lebron-mvp.jpg

LeBron deserved his first MVP Award. 29/8/9. And his team won 66 games with Mo Williams as his 2nd best player.

28/8/7 were his numbers in 09, Wade deserved his MVP more because of how great he was individually despite the team being absolute trash and still being a 5th seed

Mo Williams was averaging 18/4/4 shooting 44% from 3
Big Z averaging 13/8 in 27 mpg
Ben Wallace 1.3 blocks 7 rpg in 23 mpg
J.J Hickson was like your 4th big

Team had 3 legit rim protectors, 5 guards that seemingly hit ever 3 they got, Lebron had a lot of help on that roster and the league was pretty terrible overall outside of LA, Boston, Cleveland and Orlando, Kobe coasted all year and LA still ran away with their conference

When Lakers and Cavs played eachother Cleveland got blown out both games with Lebron having 23/9/4 6 TOs on 9/25 shooting first game and 16/8/12 on 5/20 shooting in the other one, he also had the worst +/- on his team

[Lebron23]

28/8/7 were his numbers in 09, Wade deserved his MVP more because of how great he was individually despite the team being absolute trash and still being a 5th seed

Mo Williams was averaging 18/4/4 shooting 44% from 3
Big Z averaging 13/8 in 27 mpg
Ben Wallace 1.3 blocks 7 rpg in 23 mpg
J.J Hickson was like your 4th big

Team had 3 legit rim protectors, 5 guards that seemingly hit ever 3 they got, Lebron had a lot of help on that roster and the league was pretty terrible overall outside of LA, Boston, Cleveland and Orlando, Kobe coasted all year and LA still ran away with their conference

When Lakers and Cavs played eachother Cleveland got blown out both games with Lebron having 23/9/4 6 TOs on 9/25 shooting first game and 16/8/12 on 5/20 shooting in the other one, he also had the worst +/- on his team


66 wins brah. 66 wins.

And LeBron in 2009 > Kobe in 2008.

[brownmamba00]

66 wins brah. 66 wins.

And LeBron in 2009 > Kobe in 2008.
LA killed Cleveland in both games while Kobe outplayed James breaking the 23 game winning streak of the Cavs.

Lakers won 65 that year too

Kobe and Wade deserved the MVP the most that year

[Lebron23]

LA killed Cleveland in both games while Kobe outplayed James breaking the 23 game winning streak of the Cavs.

Lakers won 65 that year too

Kobe and Wade deserved the MVP the most that year


I don't think so. LeBron stats > Kobe Stats. And CP3 should have been the MVP in 2008.

Kobe was lucky he got 1 MVP as a lifetime achievement Award.

[feyki]

Kobe and Lebron . Wade third .

[Gileraracer]

I don't think so. LeBron stats > Kobe Stats. And CP3 should have been the MVP in 2008.

Kobe was lucky he got 1 MVP as a lifetime achievement Award.

Lebron was lucky he got 2 finals MVPs thanks to this men:

http://clutchpoints.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/hi-res-187722527-official-joey-crawford-smiles-during-a-game-between-the_crop_north.jpg

http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/1skkz2wqjEO_dvGsHAvc1g--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3NfbGVnbztpbD1wbGFuZTtxPTc1O3c9NjAw/http://media.zenfs.com/en/person/Ysports/ray-allen-basketball-headshot-photo.jpg

[Showtime2001]

I don't think so. LeBron stats > Kobe Stats. And CP3 should have been the MVP in 2008.

Kobe was lucky he got 1 MVP as a lifetime achievement Award.
Kobe's stats > CP3's stats in 2008 he didn't deserve MVP over Kobe.

Winning 65 games in the West >>>> Winning 66 games in the East.

[Lebron23]

Kobe's stats > CP3's stats in 2008 he didn't deserve MVP over Kobe.

Winning 65 games in the West >>>> Winning 66 games in the East.


LeBron is a 4x NBA MVP while Kobe is a 1x NBA MVP

Deal with It

[Showtime2001]

LeBron is a 4x NBA MVP while Kobe is a 1x NBA MVP

Deal with It
Kobe is 5/7 in the Finals while LeBron is 2/6.

Deal with it

[Bandito]

Lebron23 reminds me of Lebron 2011 finals :lol

[Showtime2001]

Lebron23 reminds me of Lebron 2011 finals :lol
Truer words have never been spoken. :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You could make arguments for either player, but LeBron and Kobe have the best cases if we're taking postseason play into account.

Funny enough, I continue seeing Wade fans claim dude was "on another level" than Kobe ever was in 2009, but their impact stats suggest that even during that season, they were close. Matter of fact Kobe had MORE impact.

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2009-rapm/

SWaGR adjusts for games played while the playoffs are mixed in there too. LeBron had video-game production and impact those 2 MVP years in Cleveland. Damn. :eek:

[aj1987]

You could make arguments for either player, but LeBron and Kobe have the best cases if we're taking postseason play into account.

Funny enough, I continue seeing Wade fans claim dude was "on another level" than Kobe ever was in 2009, but their impact stats suggest that even during that season, they were close. Matter of fact Kobe had MORE impact.

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2009-rapm/

SWaGR adjusts for games played while the playoffs are mixed in there too. LeBron had video-game production and impact those 2 MVP years in Cleveland. Damn. :eek:
The heck is that stat? It has Josh Smith and Deng over Kobe in '11. How exactly is it calculated?

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe, Lebron, and Wade were really interchangeable that year. If I had to rank I'd say Kobe, Lebron, then Wade.

But honestly I take head-to-head play largely into account. Kobe outplayed Bron both times that year.

The following season is when Lebron became pretty clearly the best player in the league

[feyki]

Kobe, Lebron, and Wade were really interchangeable that year. If I had to rank I'd say Kobe, Lebron, then Wade.

But honestly I take head-to-head play largely into account. Kobe outplayed Bron both times that year.

The following season is when Lebron became pretty clearly the best player in the league

If Lebron did not choke in playoffs , i would agree . But in playoffs , I select Kobe over Lebron for 2010 .

[ShawkFactory]

If Lebron did not choke in playoffs , i would agree . But in playoffs , I select Kobe over Lebron for 2010 .
I guess..

But Lebron was always the best player on the court, regardless of who they were playing. Including the Lakers.

[LikeMike]

False.

[Bankaii]

1) Lebron
2) Wade
3) Kobe

There is absolutely no argument for Kobe over Lebron in any year post '08.
Kobe and Wade are close though.

[HOoopCityJones]

It's hilarious how there's no argument for Kobe when he was taking his Team to the Finals and winning championships putting up virtually the same exact stats as Wade.

Absolutely no argument my ass:lol


It's funny I see people giving LBJ Top 5 Goat status based on what he did from 12'-15' based on going to the Finals constantly in the EAST of all places, yet Kobe was dominating the West with Pau from 08-10. Beating way deeper Teams and defeating Teams in the Finals Lebron was losing to attempting to come out East. :confusedshrug:

[Smoke117]

False. Lebron, wade, and Paul were all better.

[Showtime2001]

False. Lebron, wade, and Paul were all better.
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/13/136085/2479220-1578648373-gw-cl.gif

[greatest-ever]

Lebron was clearly first. Then Wade.

[Smoke117]

It's hilarious how there's no argument for Kobe when he was taking his Team to the Finals and winning championships putting up virtually the same exact stats as Wade.

Absolutely no argument my ass:lol


It's funny I see people giving LBJ Top 5 Goat status based on what he did from 12'-15' based on going to the Finals constantly in the EAST of all places, yet Kobe was dominating the West with Pau from 08-10. Beating way deeper Teams and defeating Teams in the Finals Lebron was losing to attempting to come out East. :confusedshrug:

Except Wade was about 10 times the defensive player Kobe was in 09 and 10. That actually shows how much better Wade was...that he was putting up equal or better numbers offensively while also expending all that energy defensively.

[aj1987]

LOL! '09 LeBron >> '09 Kobe.

[Fire Colangelo]

28/8/7 were his numbers in 09, Wade deserved his MVP more because of how great he was individually despite the team being absolute trash and still being a 5th seed

Mo Williams was averaging 18/4/4 shooting 44% from 3
Big Z averaging 13/8 in 27 mpg
Ben Wallace 1.3 blocks 7 rpg in 23 mpg
J.J Hickson was like your 4th big

Team had 3 legit rim protectors, 5 guards that seemingly hit ever 3 they got, Lebron had a lot of help on that roster and the league was pretty terrible overall outside of LA, Boston, Cleveland and Orlando, Kobe coasted all year and LA still ran away with their conference

When Lakers and Cavs played eachother Cleveland got blown out both games with Lebron having 23/9/4 6 TOs on 9/25 shooting first game and 16/8/12 on 5/20 shooting in the other one, he also had the worst +/- on his team

I don't even know where to start...... Big Z was not exactly a rim protector, Ben Wallace was washed up as hell and pretty much sucked during his tenure in Cleveland, and JJ Hickson...... is definitely no where close to a rim protector.

You do realize the guards hit everything they shot because LeBron got them wide open looks? Mo Williams shot his highest % from the 3 when he played with LeBron... Same with West and Gibson.

@ the bolded shows the double standards.... are we really gonna look at H2H match ups to determine the best player? :oldlol:

Pretty sure LeBron >>> Kobe in career H2H match ups even before Kobe got injured.


Kobe's stats > CP3's stats in 2008 he didn't deserve MVP over Kobe.

Winning 65 games in the West >>>> Winning 66 games in the East.

2009 was the one year when the East was stronger than the West or at least on similar strength if I remember correctly.

You can spin 2009 however you want, but the consensus back then was that LeBron was the more impactful player on a weaker team. LeBron won MVP by a landslide and.... it wasn't exactly close.

[Smoke117]

Technically if were talking impact I suppose you could put Howard over Kobe in 09 too...you take Kobe off the Lakers they still win 35-40 games...you take Howard off the Magic and they win 15-20.

[Wade's Rings]

False.

[Bankaii]

It's hilarious how there's no argument for Kobe when he was taking his Team to the Finals and winning championships putting up virtually the same exact stats as Wade.

Absolutely no argument my ass:lol
Regular Season '09-
Wade: 30/5/8 on 49%. 57% TS.
Kobe: 27/5/5 on 47%. 56% TS.
Bron: 28/8/7 on 49%. 59% TS.

Playoffs 09-
Wade: 29/5/5 on 44%. 56% TS.
Kobe: 30/5/6 on 46%. 56% TS.
Bron: 35/9/7 on 51%. 62% TS.

Lebron and Wade were far better defenders than Kobe in 09. There were 2nd and 3rd in DPOY. They were also better playmakers.
Kobe was only even with Wade in scoring, and Wade was more efficient.

Lebron was on a different level. His 09 run was on 2000 Shaq and peak MJ level.
The only difference was that Bron had Mo, Delonte, and Andy. Wade had Marion, Chalmers, and Haslem. Meanwhile Kobe had Pau, Odom, Ariza, and Bynum.
He want the better player, he had the clearly better team.



It's funny I see people giving LBJ Top 5 Goat status based on what he did from 12'-15' based on going to the Finals constantly in the EAST of all places, yet Kobe was dominating the West with Pau from 08-10. Beating way deeper Teams and defeating Teams in the Finals Lebron was losing to attempting to come out East. :confusedshrug:
What does any of the have to do with 09?

Quit acting like the 09 West was anywhere near as good as it is now.

Lebron played much more superior against the Magic than Kobe did.
The Lakers won because their dominant front court stopped Dwight, while the Cavs got raped by him. Watch some basketball sometimes and you won't look so stupid.

[feyki]

Regular Season '09-
Wade: 30/5/8 on 49%. 57% TS.
Kobe: 27/5/5 on 47%. 56% TS.
Bron: 28/8/7 on 49%. 59% TS.

Playoffs 09-
Wade: 29/5/5 on 44%. 56% TS.
Kobe: 30/5/6 on 46%. 56% TS.
Bron: 35/9/7 on 51%. 62% TS.

Lebron and Wade were far better defenders than Kobe in 09. There were 2nd and 3rd in DPOY. They were also better playmakers.
Kobe was only even with Wade in scoring, and Wade was more efficient.

Lebron was on a different level. His 09 run was on 2000 Shaq and peak MJ level.
The only difference was that Bron had Mo, Delonte, and Andy. Wade had Marion, Chalmers, and Haslem. Meanwhile Kobe had Pau, Odom, Ariza, and Bynum.
He want the better player, he had the clearly better team.



What does any of the have to do with 09?

Quit acting like the 09 West was anywhere near as good as it is now.

Lebron played much more superior against the Magic than Kobe did.
The Lakers won because their dominant front court stopped Dwight, while the Cavs got raped by him. Watch some basketball sometimes and you won't look so stupid.

Kobe got 2 first place dpoy votes , Wade got 3 , Lebron got 4 . That wasn't good arguement .

Against Magic , Lebron averaged 113 Drtg a game and Kobe averaged 100 Drtg . If anything , Kobe was far better defensive player at that year .

[Smoke117]

Kobe got 2 first place dpoy votes , Wade got 3 , Lebron got 4 . That wasn't good arguement .

Against Magic , Lebron averaged 113 Drtg a game and Kobe averaged 100 Drtg . If anything , Kobe was far better defensive player at that year .

You can't just throw out drating with no context. :biggums: Lebron and Wade were both clearly better defensive players than Kobe was in 09...anyone who actually watched all three play knows that.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The heck is that stat? It has Josh Smith and Deng over Kobe in '11. How exactly is it calculated?

It's RAPM. Basically plus minus but adjusted for teammates, opponents, minutes and games played.

You can find out how it's calculated with a basic google search, although it's a stat ESPN and front offices around the league have now adopted. This and PER are the only two advanced stats I use, honestly.

[ArbitraryWater]

2009 was very good top level.

Bron
Wade
Dirk/Kobe
Paul
Howard

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Technically if were talking impact I suppose you could put Howard over Kobe in 09 too...you take Kobe off the Lakers they still win 35-40 games...you take Howard off the Magic and they win 15-20.

By all objective evidence you are wrong.

What "impact" are you referring to, and is it quantified? Because the numbers that do measure individual "impact" don't matchup with your post.

[Genaro]

Anyone saying Kobe wasn't the best player in 09 is a retard, just like saying Lebron wasn't in 12.
Then we can discuss Wade x Lebron, I have Lebron as 2nd but I can respect those choosing Wade.

[Bankaii]

Kobe got 2 first place dpoy votes , Wade got 3 , Lebron got 4 . That wasn't good arguement .

Against Magic , Lebron averaged 113 Drtg a game and Kobe averaged 100 Drtg . If anything , Kobe was far better defensive player at that year .
That was a fine argument. Anyone that watched the 09 knows Wade and Lebron were better defenders. Kobe was extremely inconsistent.

And you can't throw out random DRTGs for two different players, with 2 different positions, on 2 different teams.

Please don't try to argue this, you'll lose.

[Bankaii]

Anyone saying Kobe wasn't the best player in 09 is a retard, just like saying Lebron wasn't in 12.
Then we can discuss Wade x Lebron, I have Lebron as 2nd but I can respect those choosing Wade.
Great argument. Provide no evidence of your shit claim, just name call.:facepalm

Kobe wasn't the best, get over it.

[warriorfan]

bankaii is a nerd that dont know ball

pay no attention to him

[SugarHill]

09 LeBron is better than any version of Kobe

[GrapeApe]

On a side note, it's pretty amazing how 2009 was an interlap of primes of the 3 greatest perimeter players of a generation. You had Kobe winning a title and FMVP, Lebron winning is first MVP, and Wade having a historically great all-around season for a guard.

Wade: 30/8/5/2.2/1.3 on 49%, 30.4 PER
Lebron: 28/7/8/1.7/1.1 on 49%, 31.7 PER
Kobe: 27/5/5/1.5/0.5 on 47%, 24.4 PER

What makes Lebron and Wade's statistical production even more impressive is they both finished top 3 in DPOY. However, Kobe had the last laugh by winning the championship.

:cheers:

[feyki]

That was a fine argument. Anyone that watched the 09 knows Wade and Lebron were better defenders. Kobe was extremely inconsistent.

And you can't throw out random DRTGs for two different players, with 2 different positions, on 2 different teams.

Please don't try to argue this, you'll lose.

I gave you fair arguement , which did explain two best player defensive measurements against their best opponent in playoffs . And both perimeter/wing player .

Saying Anyone watching is nothing . I gave data , you gave fairy tale . Kobe played far better defence than Lebron against Magic . And That was faaaaarrr more important than empty seasons games .

[SexSymbol]

It's clearly Kobe in 09 and the second best player would probably bron, but wade has just as good of a case.

[warriorfan]

kobe deserves credit for his leadership in 2009

kobe turned a very soft team of pau/odom/artest/bynum/ariza into a mentally tough and focused group

[SouBeachTalents]

On a side note, it's pretty amazing how 2009 was an interlap of primes of the 3 greatest perimeter players of a generation. You had Kobe winning a title and FMVP, Lebron winning is first MVP, and Wade having a historically great all-around season for a guard.

Wade: 30/8/5/2.2/1.3 on 49%, 30.4 PER
Lebron: 28/7/8/1.7/1.1 on 49%, 31.7 PER
Kobe: 27/5/5/1.5/0.5 on 47%, 24.4 PER

What makes Lebron and Wade's statistical production even more impressive is they both finished top 3 in DPOY. However, Kobe had the last laugh by winning the championship.

:cheers:

:applause: Just too bad we didn't see any of them play each other. Wade was a win away from playing LeBron, and LeBron came up 2 wins short of playing Kobe

[tpols]

nah.. kobe and bron that year. playoffs is easy tie breaker.

[Wade's Rings]

nah.. kobe and bron that year. playoffs is easy tie breaker.

So '06 Bron & '06 Wade > '06 Kobe.

[Bankaii]

I gave you fair arguement , which did explain two best player defensive measurements against their best opponent in playoffs . And both perimeter/wing player .

Saying Anyone watching is nothing . I gave data , you gave fairy tale . Kobe played far better defence than Lebron against Magic . And That was faaaaarrr more important than empty seasons games .
I don't think you understand the issue.

DRTG is essentially a team stat. It doesn't take into account opponents faced nor one team's defense being better than the other.

The Lakers were clearly a better defensive team than the Cavs, as shown by Dwight being shut down.

You provided false stats, which is essentially nothing. Meanwhile I used DPOY.
And if you watched the freaking games you would know how inconsistent Kobe was. He didn't play better defenders, his team did. Watch the freaking games for once.


bankaii is a nerd that dont know ball

pay no attention to him
Keep whoring for my attention

[ImKobe]

66 wins brah. 66 wins.

And LeBron in 2009 > Kobe in 2008.

Both years Kobe made it further

Lebron won 66 games but couldnt beat the same teams Kobe beat during that time

lost to Boston twice and Orlando, choked all of those series by the way

2008 was the year Kobe and Bran were the closest to meeting each other

unfortunately Lebron started the Boston series off shooting 19% (with 17 TO) in the first two games. that the Cavs lost by a 4 and 16 pts (really, Cavs were trash but only lost by 4 to an all-time stacked Boston team in a game where Lebron goes 2-18 with 10 TOs???), Ray Allen shot 4-24 from 3 for the series(!!!)

[SouBeachTalents]

Both years Kobe made it further

Lebron won 66 games but couldnt beat the same teams Kobe beat during that time

lost to Boston twice and Orlando, choked all of those series by the way

2008 was the year Kobe and Bran were the closest to meeting each other

unfortunately Lebron started the Boston series off shooting 19% (with 17 TO) in the first two games. that the Cavs lost by a 4 and 16 pts (really, Cavs were trash but only lost by 4 to an all-time stacked Boston team in a game where Lebron goes 2-18 with 10 TOs???)

Wrong on so many counts here

1. It'd be hard to say LeBron "choked" in '09 when he averaged 39/8/8, hit the game winner in Game 2, and hit 2 FT's with under a second to play to force OT in Game 4

2. They clearly never came closer to playing each other than they did in '09, when they both had HCA in the conference finals and were huge favorites to win. The Pistons won 14 more games than the Cavs in '08 would have had HCA for the ECF

[Dresta]

It's RAPM. Basically plus minus but adjusted for teammates, opponents, minutes and games played.

You can find out how it's calculated with a basic google search, although it's a stat ESPN and front offices around the league have now adopted. This and PER are the only two advanced stats I use, honestly.
But Wade had a higher RAPM than Kobe, and Kobe's teammate (Odom) had a higher RAPM than both of them.

That stat is a severely flawed mathematical abstraction.

[feyki]

I don't think you understand the issue.

DRTG is essentially a team stat. It doesn't take into account opponents faced nor one team's defense being better than the other.

The Lakers were clearly a better defensive team than the Cavs, as shown by Dwight being shut down.

You provided false stats, which is essentially nothing. Meanwhile I used DPOY.
And if you watched the freaking games you would know how inconsistent Kobe was. He didn't play better defenders, his team did. Watch the freaking games for once.


Keep whoring for my attention

This tell your vision . Season,season,season . Wrong way bro .

How Lakers were clearly better defensive team than Cavs in 2010 :facepalm ?

Cavs had nearly 3 defensive rating above Lakers in 2009 .

I prefer West,Ilga,Varejao trio over Gasol,Odom,Ariza trio on defence (only defence , don't get me wrong ) .

[ImKobe]

Except Wade was about 10 times the defensive player Kobe was in 09 and 10. That actually shows how much better Wade was...that he was putting up equal or better numbers offensively while also expending all that energy defensively.

Because Wade tried harder on defense in the regular season??? please :roll:


Give him all the props in the world and think he deserved the MVP in 09 more than Lebron and Kobe who won 66 and 65 respectively but Kobe was coasting in 09 while Wade was in 06 Bean mode in terms of trying to prove himself since he knew his team wasn't nearly good enough to compete with contenders.

We know how good Kobe is as a defensive player from his younger days, he could definitely play defense but by 09 he was going to his 6th NBA Finals at age 30 while Wade had gone to just one Finals and had basically been a 1st round exit the other years...Wade wasn't saving himself for the Playoffs :oldlol:. Played more minutes and took more shots and had a way higher usage rate to get those averages

You can say that Wade statistically had the better regular season and was more deserving of a regular season MVP, but Kobe overall was considered the best player in the world, 32/6/7 vs Orlando for the Finals MVP is better than 30/5/8 regular season 5th seed 1st round exit :confusedshrug:

As good as he was in the regular season, he surely couldn't match that against a pretty trash Atlanta team in the first round, putting up 29/5/5 44%FG while Kobe averaged 30/5/6 46% for his championship run.

Davis last yr put up amazing stats and had a much higher PER and WS/48 than Bron in the regular season but ain't no one gonna say he was the best player in the world based off that, right?

[tpols]

So '06 Bron & '06 Wade > '06 Kobe.

it was never a tie back then between them. Wade ended up having a better playoff run, but he wasnt considered Kobe level before it. He wasnt even a top 5 MVP candidate that year. In 2009 there was nothing separating Kobe and Wade in the regular season (Kobe actually had more MVP votes), and then Kobe led his team to a ring while Wade and the boys lost to the Hawks lol.

[SouBeachTalents]

it was never a tie back then between them. Wade ended up having a better playoff run, but he wasnt considered Kobe level before it. He wasnt even a top 5 MVP candidate that year. In 2009 there was nothing separating Kobe and Wade in the regular season (Kobe actually had more MVP votes), and then Kobe led his team to a ring while Wade and the boys lost to the Hawks lol.

I have no problem with someone saying Kobe was better than Wade in '09 factoring in the playoffs, but I would disagree with that. By pretty much any measure Wade was better than Kobe during the '09 RS

Wade: 30/5/8 on 49% 30.4 PER/14.7 WS + better defense
Kobe: 27/5/5 on 47% 24.4 PER/12.7 WS

And considering the disparity in how many wins their teams had (65-43), which is the biggest factor for voters in MVP races, it's amazing that Wade not only finished as close as he did to Kobe, but received more first place votes to boot

[feyki]

it was never a tie back then between them. Wade ended up having a better playoff run, but he wasnt considered Kobe level before it. He wasnt even a top 5 MVP candidate that year. In 2009 there was nothing separating Kobe and Wade in the regular season (Kobe actually had more MVP votes), and then Kobe led his team to a ring while Wade and the boys lost to the Hawks lol.
:wtf: Wade had great level in 05 playoffs , while Kobe tanking .

Wade was clearly better than Kobe at 06 , also 05 .


I'm not sure on Kobe vs Lebron . Both got some votes in mvp award and both played not bad level in playoffs . I pick Kobe but it's close .

Dirk/Wade
Duncan/Nash
Kobe/Lebron

@2006

..

[ImKobe]

it was never a tie back then between them. Wade ended up having a better playoff run, but he wasnt considered Kobe level before it. He wasnt even a top 5 MVP candidate that year. In 2009 there was nothing separating Kobe and Wade in the regular season (Kobe actually had more MVP votes), and then Kobe led his team to a ring while Wade and the boys lost to the Hawks lol.

Kobe was picked best player in the world by almost everyone in 06, no one else in the NBA could do what he did from 06-07. Kobe dropped 62 vs Mavs 61 in 3 qtrs while it took Wade 50 minutes to score 43 on the same team, and fyi Kobe only had 3 more FGA both had the same amount of free throws

[Smoke117]

Because Wade tried harder on defense in the regular season??? please :roll:


Give him all the props in the world and think he deserved the MVP in 09 more than Lebron and Kobe who won 66 and 65 respectively but Kobe was coasting in 09 while Wade was in 06 Bean mode in terms of trying to prove himself since he knew his team wasn't nearly good enough to compete with contenders.

We know how good Kobe is as a defensive player from his younger days, he could definitely play defense but by 09 he was going to his 6th NBA Finals at age 30 while Wade had gone to just one Finals and had basically been a 1st round exit the other years...Wade wasn't saving himself for the Playoffs :oldlol:. Played more minutes and took more shots and had a way higher usage rate to get those averages

You can say that Wade statistically had the better regular season and was more deserving of a regular season MVP, but Kobe overall was considered the best player in the world, 32/6/7 vs Orlando for the Finals MVP is better than 30/5/8 regular season 5th seed 1st round exit :confusedshrug:

As good as he was in the regular season, he surely couldn't match that against a pretty trash Atlanta team in the first round, putting up 29/5/5 44%FG while Kobe averaged 30/5/6 46% for his championship run.

Davis last yr put up amazing stats and had a much higher PER and WS/48 than Bron in the regular season but ain't no one gonna say he was the best player in the world based off that, right?

No we don't know that...you kobe stans just think that in your delusional minds. Kobe has more average defensive seasons than he has good defensive seasons. And you say Wade was in Kobe 06 mode...Kobe barely even played defense that season...Wade was dropping 30 points and 8 assist while being one of the best defensive guards in the league...

And Wade couldn't match up against the Hawks because he was exhausted from having to carry the Heat offensively and defensively...something Kobe would know nothing about as he's never done the latter.

[feyki]

Kobe was picked best player in the world by almost everyone in 06, no one else in the NBA could do what he did from 06-07. Kobe dropped 62 vs Mavs 61 in 3 qtrs while it took Wade 50 minutes to score 43 on the same team, and fyi Kobe only had 3 more FGA both had the same amount of free throws

You said "Wade tried much on regular season" just now . Double standard ..

[Wade's Rings]

Give him all the props in the world and think he deserved the MVP in 09 more than Lebron and Kobe who won 66 and 65 respectively but Kobe was coasting in 09 while Wade was in 06 Bean mode in terms of trying to prove himself since he knew his team wasn't nearly good enough to compete with contenders.

:roll:

Wade had literal trash. With a contender he's winning 60+ pretty easily. It's hilarious how you bring up teams in this comparison as if they were on similar levels. Wade wasn't going '06 Kobe mode. He played much better defense while averaging more assists.


We know how good Kobe is as a defensive player from his younger days, he could definitely play defense but by 09 he was going to his 6th NBA Finals at age 30 while Wade had gone to just one Finals and had basically been a 1st round exit the other years...Wade wasn't saving himself for the Playoffs :oldlol:. Played more minutes and took more shots and had a way higher usage rate to get those averages

Congratulations Kobe played defense when he was young, what does that have to do with '09?

Wade didn't have a team to compete, you keep bringing this up as if their teams were on the same level :facepalm

Wade took more shots but was more efficent.


You can say that Wade statistically had the better regular season and was more deserving of a regular season MVP, but Kobe overall was considered the best player in the world, 32/6/7 vs Orlando for the Finals MVP is better than 30/5/8 regular season 5th seed 1st round exit :confusedshrug:

This is the 3rd time, you keep mentioning team accomplishments like Wade and Kobe had equal teams. Put Wade on the '09 Lakers and Kobe on the '09 Heat and see who gets further. BTW Wade dropped 38/6/5 shooting 53% vs the same Magic team that year.


As good as he was in the regular season, he surely couldn't match that against a pretty trash Atlanta team in the first round, putting up 29/5/5 44%FG while Kobe averaged 30/5/6 46% for his championship run.

Atl wasn't a great team but they were better than the Heat. The Heat went 1-3 against the Hawks in the Regular Season, were 1-2 when Wade played. The only game the Heat won vs the Hawks it took a monster 35pts on 69% from Wade to get the victory. Throughout the Season they usually held the Heat to poor shooting %'s and had their number the entire Season. Literally the only reason anybody thinks the Heat should've won the series is because of Wade.

Also, using this same logic '06 Wade > '06 Kobe. Kobe played great in the Regular Season 35/5/5 shooting 45% dropping to 28/6/5 on 50% while Wade had a dominant Title run dropping 28/6/6 shooting 50%.

[ImKobe]

:wtf: Wade had great level in 05 playoffs , while Kobe tanking .

Wade was clearly better than Kobe at 06 , also 05 .


I'm not sure on Kobe vs Lebron . Both got some votes in mvp award and both played not bad level in playoffs . I pick Kobe but it's close .

Dirk/Wade
Duncan/Nash
Kobe/Lebron

@2006

..

Kobe 06 35/5/5 28 PER
Wade 06 27/6/7 27 PER

Heat record 52-30 with Shaq, Antoine, Zo, GP, Haslem would have been the 3rd best playeron the Lakers :oldlol:

Heat only won 7 more games with that roster, in the 7 games Wade missed they still won 4 of them (57%, higher than Lakers win %)

Kobe vs the same Mavs squad averaged 43 ppg in 3 games

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe was picked best player in the world by almost everyone in 06, no one else in the NBA could do what he did from 06-07. Kobe dropped 62 vs Mavs 61 in 3 qtrs while it took Wade 50 minutes to score 43 on the same team, and fyi Kobe only had 3 more FGA both had the same amount of free throws
You're comparing a game in January to the finals..

[Wade's Rings]

it was never a tie back then between them. Wade ended up having a better playoff run, but he wasnt considered Kobe level before it. He wasnt even a top 5 MVP candidate that year. In 2009 there was nothing separating Kobe and Wade in the regular season (Kobe actually had more MVP votes), and then Kobe led his team to a ring while Wade and the boys lost to the Hawks lol.

:oldlol:

Stop it. Wade put up 30/5/8 shooting 49% with DPOY level defense. Kobe put up 27/5/5 shooting 47% with average defense at best. Wade was a level better in the Regular Season, in the last couple months of the Season the MVP race was said to literally be between Wade & Bron.

Kobe's team won 65 Games to Wade's 43 that's why he had more MVP votes.

The Hawks thing is overblown. Go look at my comment to imkobe.

I actually have no issue with Kobe being above Wade in '09 factoring in the Playoffs but it's hilarious when you guys say Kobe was the best in '06 when Wade was way better in the Playoffs :oldlol:

[Wade's Rings]

You're comparing a game in January to the finals..

Not only that he keeps propping up Kobe's '09 finals vs the Magic but Wade dropped 38/6/5 shooting 53% on them, Bron dropped 39/8/8 shooting 49% in the ECF, Roy even dropped 28/6/5 on 48% shooting on them :oldlol:


Kobe 06 35/5/5 28 PER
Wade 06 27/6/7 27 PER

Heat record 52-30 with Shaq, Antoine, Zo, GP, Haslem would have been the 3rd best playeron the Lakers :oldlol:

Heat only won 7 more games with that roster, in the 7 games Wade missed they still won 4 of them (57%, higher than Lakers win %)

Kobe vs the same Mavs squad averaged 43 ppg in 3 games

Shaq missed 23 Games that Season including a month at the very start of the Season. They then had a Coaching change midway through the Season.

[raprap]

:oldlol:

[tpols]

Wade was a level better in the Regular Season, in the last couple months of the Season the MVP race was said to literally be between Wade & Bron.

The MVP race was said to be between Bron and Wade,yet Kobe finished above Wade .. how the hell does that work? Im not saying MVP votes means hes better, but it just blows your assumption that Wade was on another level out of the water.



Kobe's team won 65 Games to Wade's 43 that's why he had more MVP votes.


Wade's team in 06 won more games than Kobe's Lakers in the same year, yet Kobe still finished ahead...

[feyki]

Kobe 06 35/5/5 28 PER
Wade 06 27/6/7 27 PER

Heat record 52-30 with Shaq, Antoine, Zo, GP, Haslem would have been the 3rd best playeron the Lakers :oldlol:

Heat only won 7 more games with that roster, in the 7 games Wade missed they still won 4 of them (57%, higher than Lakers win %)

Kobe vs the same Mavs squad averaged 43 ppg in 3 games


That's just funny . Have you schizophrenia or something like that ? You mentioned seasons are empty just now . And you're saying Kobe had good season arguements now , just pathetic dude . Be consistent .

[Smoke117]

Kobe 06 35/5/5 28 PER
Wade 06 27/6/7 27 PER

Heat record 52-30 with Shaq, Antoine, Zo, GP, Haslem would have been the 3rd best playeron the Lakers :oldlol:

Heat only won 7 more games with that roster, in the 7 games Wade missed they still won 4 of them (57%, higher than Lakers win %)

Kobe vs the same Mavs squad averaged 43 ppg in 3 games

lol...you're joking right? Walker is a joke who was a detriment half the time, Haslem was an okay role player...nothing to note, and Payton was washed up. Shut your ass up with all this nonsense.

[SexSymbol]

Great argument. Provide no evidence of your shit claim, just name call.:facepalm

Kobe wasn't the best, get over it.
It's quite clear that he was...

[ImKobe]

:roll:

Wade had literal trash. With a contender he's winning 60+ pretty easily. It's hilarious how you bring up teams in this comparison as if they were on similar levels.



Congratulations Kobe played defense when he was young, what does that have to do with '09?

Wade didn't have a team to compete, you keep bringing this up as if their teams were on the same level :facepalm

Wade took more shots but was more efficent.



This is the 3rd time, you keep mentioning team accomplishments like Wade and Kobe had equal teams. Put Wade on the '09 Lakers and Kobe on the '09 Heat and see who gets further. BTW Wade dropped 38/6/5 shooting 53% vs the same Magic team that year.



Atl wasn't a great team but they were better than the Heat. The Heat went 1-3 against the Hawks in the Regular Season, were 1-2 when Wade played. The only game the Heat won vs the Hawks it took a monster 35pts on 69% from Wade to get the victory. Throughout the Season they usually held the Heat to poor shooting %'s and had their number the entire Season. Literally the only reason anybody thinks the Heat should've won the series is because of Wade.

Also, using this same logic '06 Wade > '06 Kobe. Kobe played great in the Regular Season 35/5/5 shooting 45% dropping to 28/6/5 on 50% while Wade had a dominant Title run dropping 28/6/6 shooting 50%.


Hawks and Heat were 4 and 5 seed, Suns were a much better team and Lakers had no hope coming in but Kobe hit a game-winner and they should have closed the series out in 6 when Kobe dropped 50 but Kwame Brown left Tim Thomas open for a wide open 3... Kobe's scoring efficiency actually increased in the Playoffs but he wasn't chucking it up as much because he had to focus more on defense against Phoenix because they could easily outscore him (as it was evident in the game he dropped 50)

Either way both years Kobe was considered the best player in the league by the players/coaches and the media, Wade had the better post-season in 06 I can agree with that but in the case of comparing them in 06 it's a much closer debate due to the fact that Miami did not win that many more games despite having a much better roster.. in 09 case Kobe has the same advantage but wins 22 more games.

Wade's help in 09 is much better than Kobe's help in 06.

[SouBeachTalents]

Hawks and Heat were 4 and 5 seed, Suns were a much better team and Lakers had no hope coming in but Kobe hit a game-winner and they should have closed the series out in 6 when Kobe dropped 50 but Kwame Brown left Tim Thomas open for a wide open 3... Kobe's scoring efficiency actually increased in the Playoffs but he wasn't chucking it up as much because he had to focus more on defense against Phoenix because they could easily outscore him (as it was evident in the game he dropped 50)

Either way both years Kobe was considered the best player in the league by the players/coaches and the media, Wade had the better post-season in 06 I can agree with that but in the case of comparing them in 06 it's a much closer debate due to the fact that Miami did not win that many more games despite having a much better roster.. in 09 case Kobe has the same advantage but wins 22 more games.

Wade's help in 09 is much better than Kobe's help in 06.

Ridiculous statement, they were basically both equally bad. Odom was better than any teammate Wade had in '09

[GrapeApe]

The MVP race was said to be between Bron and Wade,yet Kobe finished above Wade .. how the hell does that work? Im not saying MVP votes means hes better, but it just blows your assumption that Wade was on another level out of the water.




Wade's team in 06 won more games than Kobe's Lakers in the same year, yet Kobe still finished ahead...

The 2006 Heat only won 7 more games than the Lakers. Had the Heat won 22 more games than the Lakers I'm sure Wade would have finished above Kobe in the voting. The 2006 regular season was pretty turbulent for Miami. Shaq missed a big chunk of games and SVG was replaced. Outside of Wade and Haslem they were an old team and were a revolving door of injuries. The 2005 Heat were better a better squad imo.

[Hey Yo]

At no point of Kobe's career was he the best player in the league.

[ImKobe]

lol...you're joking right? Walker is a joke who was a detriment half the time, Haslem was an okay role player...nothing to note, and Payton was washed up. Shut your ass up with all this nonsense.

Haslem better numbers than any big on the Lakers

Payton still better than Smush Parker, and he was their PG off the bench not starting

Heat had a locker room with 3 HOFs on the roster, no matter how you put it their team chemistry was much better and Shaq was still putting up 20 a game on 60%, Kobe's 2nd player was Lamar fking Odom :oldlol:

[Wade's Rings]

The MVP race was said to be between Bron and Wade,yet Kobe finished above Wade .. how the hell does that work? Im not saying MVP votes means hes better, but it just blows your assumption that Wade was on another level out of the water.

Is it that hard to comprehend? Kobe's team won more Games that's why he finished higher in the MVP voting. It really doesn't, Wade was better statistically across the board, with better defense, while carrying a much much worse squad.


Wade's team in 06 won more games than Kobe's Lakers in the same year, yet Kobe still finished ahead...

He wasn't getting as much attention as Kobe? Everybody was enamored with Kobe's scoring and the Heat didn't do great record-wise that year sans Shaq.

[RRR3]

LeBron won MVP, had noticeably superior stats than Kobe in both the regular season and the playoffs (including against the Magic)

Wade had noticeably better stats as well and was playing with garbage.

Yet Kobe fans claim it's stupid to say they were better? :wtf:

Their only argument (a weak one at that) is "dat rang doe"


Meanwhile they completely flip their argument when it comes to Wade vs Kobe in 2006




Stop being hypocritical

[RRR3]

Haslem better numbers than any big on the Lakers

Payton still better than Smush Parker, and he was their PG off the bench not starting

Heat had a locker room with 3 HOFs on the roster, no matter how you put it their team chemistry was much better and Shaq was still putting up 20 a game on 60%, Kobe's 2nd player was Lamar fking Odom :oldlol:
Haslem was better than Odom? :lol

[Dresta]

The 2006 Heat only won 7 more games than the Lakers. Had the Heat won 22 more games than the Lakers I'm sure Wade would have finished above Kobe in the voting. The 2006 regular season was pretty turbulent for Miami. Shaq missed a big chunk of games and SVG was replaced. Outside of Wade and Haslem they were an old team and were a revolving door of injuries. The 2005 Heat were better a better squad imo.
Agreed with this. Shaq put on more weight on got more lazy in the 06 season; he was also a much worse defensive player. Walker sucked, Payton could still play d but he was pretty useless otherwise. That team really wasn't very good.

[GrapeApe]

Hawks and Heat were 4 and 5 seed, Suns were a much better team and Lakers had no hope coming in but Kobe hit a game-winner and they should have closed the series out in 6 when Kobe dropped 50 but Kwame Brown left Tim Thomas open for a wide open 3... Kobe's scoring efficiency actually increased in the Playoffs but he wasn't chucking it up as much because he had to focus more on defense against Phoenix because they could easily outscore him (as it was evident in the game he dropped 50)

Either way both years Kobe was considered the best player in the league by the players/coaches and the media, Wade had the better post-season in 06 I can agree with that but in the case of comparing them in 06 it's a much closer debate due to the fact that Miami did not win that many more games despite having a much better roster.. in 09 case Kobe has the same advantage but wins 22 more games.

Wade's help in 09 is much better than Kobe's help in 06.

What? :oldlol:

The 2006 Lakers were garbage, but the 2009 Heat were at another level of garbage. If you replace Wade with simply a solid all-star caliber SG, they don't win 30 games.

[HOoopCityJones]

06 Lakers ain't worse than 09 Heat? My God the revisionism.


06 Lakers were arguably the worst collection of talent surrounding a superstar player of the entire 2000's aside from Tmac's Magic. Odom was a non factor all of those years and didn't start balling until we started winning, his peak during those years was a year removed from our last title.

Damn ya love to make shit up.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Ridiculous statement, they were basically both equally bad. Odom was better than any teammate Wade had in '09


what a dumb thing to say

that HEAT team had Marion for half the year, Beasley putting up 14ppg, O'Neal for 30 games, Chalmers the whole year, Haslem the whole year

meanwhile, Kobe had Smush Parker and Kwame Brown as his third and fourth best players, after that you had Brian Cook starting for half the season, Chris Mihm starting.

The 5 man combination for the 2006 Lakers which played the most minutes was

Smush, Kobe, Odom, Brian Cook & Chris Mihm

2nd most minutes = Smush/Kobe/Odom/Cook/Kwame


2009 HEAT

Chalmers, Wade, Marion, Haslem, Anthony

2nd most minutes = Chalmers, Wade, Moon, O'neal, Haslem

and you still had 14ppg scorer Michael Beasley coming off the bench


meanwhile for the Lakers sixth man was Deven George, who was putting up an astounding 6ppg with a PER of 11. Beasley put up 16ppg with a PER of 17, which would have been the second highest PER on those Lakers

[RRR3]

Id be careful using PER to argue anything considering LeBron and Wade blew Kobe out of the water in that category in 09

[feyki]

LeBron won MVP, had noticeably superior stats than Kobe in both the regular season and the playoffs (including against the Magic)

Wade had noticeably better stats as well and was playing with garbage.

Yet Kobe fans claim it's stupid to say they were better? :wtf:

Their only argument (a weak one at that) is "dat rang doe"


Meanwhile they completely flip their argument when it comes to Wade vs Kobe in 2006




Stop being hypocritical

Correct . Zero Objectivity

[Smoke117]

Agreed with this. Shaq put on more weight on got more lazy in the 06 season; he was also a much worse defensive player. Walker sucked, Payton could still play d but he was pretty useless otherwise. That team really wasn't very good.

Definitely. He had something to prove in 2005...that the Lakers made the wrong choice letting him go and keeping Kobe. In 2006 though he pretty much reverted back to being his usual lazy self.(he has to be properly motivated to go all out) The fact that he was ailing physically for a good part of the season didn't help either as the first part of his game to suffer is always the defense.

[HOoopCityJones]

You guys do the same shit.

[Wade's Rings]

Hawks and Heat were 4 and 5 seed, Suns were a much better team and Lakers had no hope coming in but Kobe hit a game-winner and they should have closed the series out in 6 when Kobe dropped 50 but Kwame Brown left Tim Thomas open for a wide open 3... Kobe's scoring efficiency actually increased in the Playoffs but he wasn't chucking it up as much because he had to focus more on defense against Phoenix because they could easily outscore him (as it was evident in the game he dropped 50)

The Hawks and Heat were the 4th & 5th Seed. Wade carrying the team is why they were 5th, that doesn't mean the teams were even close in terms of actual play.

The Suns didn't have Amare and were a much worse Defense than the Hawks. I agree the Suns were a better team but don't act as if they were an amazing team.


Either way both years Kobe was considered the best player in the league by the players/coaches and the media, Wade had the better post-season in 06 I can agree with that but in the case of comparing them in 06 it's a much closer debate due to the fact that Miami did not win that many more games despite having a much better roster.. in 09 case Kobe has the same advantage but wins 22 more games.

Plenty of people considered Bron the best player in '09 and others would've had Wade as the best. After the Lakers won the Title is when Kobe was getting most of the best in the world talks.

The Heat won less Games because of Shaq missing 23 Games and the Coaching change midway.


Wade's help in 09 is much better than Kobe's help in 06.

:oldlol: You can't be serious.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Id be careful using PER to argue anything considering LeBron and Wade blew Kobe out of the water in that category in 09

and you and the rest of the lebron stans use that stat (or at-least used to until Curry/AD took over as the PER gods) to show why you think Lebron was better than Kobe


so I know that you guys value that stat... and I use it against you to show that Wade's 6th man would have had the highest PER on the Lakers..

so now if you disagree with my assessment you're basically admitting that PER isn't as important as you guys would like other people to think, which most aren't willing to concede to just to try and win a small argument like this..

It's called knowing your audience

[RRR3]

2009


LeBron: 37.7 MPG, 28.4 PPG, 7.6 RPG, 7.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, 1.1 BPG, 3.0 TO on .489/.344/.780 (59.1 TS%)

Wade: 38.6 MPG, 30.2 PPG (led NBA), 5.0 RPG, 7.5 APG, 2.2 SPG, 1.3 BPG, 3.4 TOV on .491/.317/.765 (57.4 TS%)

Bean: 36.1 MPG, 26.8 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.9 APG, 1.5 SPG, 0.5 BPG, 2.6 TOV on .467/.351/.856 (56.1 TS%)


Playoffs

LeBron: 14 games, 41.4 MPG, 35.3 PPG (led playoffs), 9.1 RPG, 7.3 APG, 1.6 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 2. TOV on .510/.333/.749 (61.8 TS%)


Wade: 7 games, 40.7 MPG, 29.1 PPG, 5.0 RPG, 5.3 APG, 0.9 SPG, 1.6 BPG, 3.6 TOV on .439/.360/.862 (56.5 TS%)

Bean: 23 games, 40.9 MPG, 30.2 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 5.5 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 2.6 TOV on .457/.349/.883 (56.4 TS%)


But it's blasphemy to say LeBron the MVP and peak Wade were better

[RRR3]

Curry is better than LeBron right now you dunce. No sane person argues that

[TheMarkMadsen]

All I said was that you guys used to use PER all the time until Curry/AD began putting up crazy PER numbers and you immediately resort to name calling

:lol :lol

[Smoke117]

and you and the rest of the lebron stans use that stat (or at-least used to until Curry/AD took over as the PER gods) to show why you think Lebron was better than Kobe


so I know that you guys value that stat... and I use it against you to show that Wade's 6th man would have had the highest PER on the Lakers..

so now if you disagree with my assessment you're basically admitting that PER isn't as important as you guys would like other people to think, which most aren't willing to concede to just to try and win a small argument like this..

It's called knowing your audience

Everyone is a lebron stan if they disagree with you kobe stan clowns. :facepalm And why would anyone use reason with a kobe stan? It's just wasted time as you are all delusional and full of shit.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Everyone is a lebron stan if they disagree with you kobe stan clowns. :facepalm And why would anyone use reason with a kobe stan? It's just wasted time as you are all delusional and full of shit.


I never said anything about somebody being a Lebron stan if they disagree? What the hell are you talking about :oldlol: :oldlol:

I said that lebron stans used to use PER all the time in their arguments and that they don't use it nearly as much anymore

why so mad?

[Smoke117]

I never said anything about somebody being a Lebron stan if they disagree? What the hell are you talking about :oldlol: :oldlol:

I said that lebron stans used to use PER all the time in their arguments and that they don't use it nearly as much anymore

why so mad?

...you just called RRR3 a Lebron stan and he's not one.

[RRR3]

I began to use PER less when I started watching NBA more closely and realized it's not like baseball where you can make judgements completely off of stats. If you hadn't noticed LeBron's PER has dropped off the last few years, and I don't believe LeBron has been the consensus best player since 2013. He has some argument for 14 and 15, but I wouldn't necessarily say he had the best case for being number 1 in either of those years. And he has absolutely zero case over Curry this year.

[RRR3]

...you just called RRR3 a Lebron stan and he's not one.
Yeah I am lol. I'm just not an idiot. Thanks for the support tho.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I began to use PER less when I started watching NBA more closely and realized it's not like baseball where you can make judgements completely off of stats. If you hadn't noticed LeBron's PER has dropped off the last few years, and I don't believe LeBron has been the consensus best player since 2013. He has some argument for 14 and 15, but I wouldn't necessarily say he had the best case for being number 1 in either of those years. And he has absolutely zero case over Curry this year.

I wasn't talking about who was the best player between Curry and Lebron, lol not sure where that even came from, I was just noting that it doesn't get used as much anymore after Curry and AD started putting up ridiculous numbers.

My original post was aimed towards Lebron fans/Wade fans most of whom have a history of using PER, which is why I used PER in comparison to Beasley and George because I know that is something they value. I never use PER in an argument unless I'm trying to use somebody else's logic against them, which in this case was the common belief among that fanbase that PER is a great tool to use.

[GrapeApe]

You guys do the same shit.

It's hard to be completely unbiased in these kind of debates, which is perfectly natural. Usually the most objective views are from neutral fans. However, there's very little neutrality when discussing Kobe, Wade, and Lebron. Nearly everyone has either a strong admiration or dislike toward these players.

[TheMarkMadsen]

...you just called RRR3 a Lebron stan and he's not one.


:coleman: :coleman:

[Smoke117]

Yeah I am lol. I'm just not an idiot. Thanks for the support tho.

Oh you are? Technically I'd say what makes you a stan is when you argue beyond reason. I don't consider myself a Wade stan...I'm a fan. Stans put their favorite player on a pedestal...so I wouldn't say you are a stan since I honestly didn't even know you were even a Lebron fan.

[ShawkFactory]

It's possible to be a fan of lebron and also be able to have an actual objective discussion.

[RRR3]

Oh you are? Technically I'd say what makes you a stan is when you argue beyond reason. I don't consider myself a Wade stan...I'm a fan. Stans put their favorite player on a pedestal...so I wouldn't say you are a stan since I honestly didn't even know you were even a Lebron fan.
Hmm well I'm certainly better than I was but I recognize my bias towards LBJ and I honestly have a lot to learn about analyzing basketball

[Smoke117]

Hmm well I'm certainly better than I was but I recognize my bias towards LBJ and I honestly have a lot to learn about analyzing basketball

Then again Lebron has always bored me so I don't really watch him play or follow the non-trolling discussions that involve him. I've been called a Lebron stan too because apparently if you have anything positive to say about him...you're a stan.

[RRR3]

Really? I always thought LeBron and Wade were very similar players in many aspects

[Funktion]

Bron stans still arguing with Kobe fam. Dray/Klay fam, CurryBe fam, Curry stans, Curry/Kyrie fam, and Duraymont alliance win again. :facepalm

[RRR3]

For many ISH posters you're basically a LeBron stan if you don't think he's the worst player ever

[Funktion]

For many ISH posters you're basically a LeBron stan if you don't think he's the worst player ever

True :lol

[Bankaii]

This tell your vision . Season,season,season . Wrong way bro .

How Lakers were clearly better defensive team than Cavs in 2010 :facepalm ?

Cavs had nearly 3 defensive rating above Lakers in 2009 .

I prefer West,Ilga,Varejao trio over Gasol,Odom,Ariza trio on defence (only defence , don't get me wrong ) .
I can't believe you're actually trying to argue Kobe's defense in 2009, did you even watch the Lakers?
His own coach said his defense was lackluster and inconsistent.
Kobe averaged less blocks and steals in 09 too.

The Cavs defense was led by Lebron. It was a good defensive team, but he made it great. As proven by him having the best DRTG.

The lakers best defender was Ariza. And Odom and Pau arguably had a bigger impact.

Dwight vs Cavs: 26/13/3 on 65%.
Dwight Cavs Lakers: 15/15/2 on 49%.
That was the difference in the lakers winning and the Cavs not. Pau and Bynum shut Dwight down.

Your last statement about choosing Delonte, Big Z, and Andy over Ariza, Odom, Pau and Bynum is just stupid. After saying something that stupid I see there's no point in even continuing this with you.

[Showtime2001]

Then again Lebron has always bored me so I don't really watch him play or follow the non-trolling discussions that involve him. I've been called a Lebron stan too because apparently if you have anything positive to say about him...you're a stan.
You mean like you when someone has something positive to say about Kobe?

:biggums:

[Lebron23]

In Kobe's own words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9-woh6oHpE

Kobe says LeBron is the MVP

/END THREAD

[SouBeachTalents]

In Kobe's own words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9-woh6oHpE

Kobe says LeBron is the MVP

/END THREAD

That was for 2010 though

[Lebron23]

That was for 2010 though


Ok. I thought it was a late video. But anyway Lebron put up better numbers than Kobe, and his team won 66 games despite having a less talented supporting casts than Kobe.

[TheMarkMadsen]

won 66 games, still no help doe..

had b2b 60+ win season with the Cavs with "no help" but only had one 60+ win season with Wade/Bosh

So apparently he was playing with scrubs in 09/10 winning 60+ games but then couldn't win 60+ games with the HEAT in 3/4 season with Wade and Bosh (2012 they weren't on pace to win 60 games)


ok then...

[Lebron23]

won 66 games, still no help doe..

had b2b 60+ win season with the Cavs with "no help" but only had one 60+ win season with Wade/Bosh

So apparently he was playing with scrubs in 09/10 winning 60+ games but then couldn't win 60+ games with the HEAT in 3/4 season with Wade and Bosh (2012 they weren't on pace to win 60 games)


ok then...


Cleveland LeBron was the MDEF. Most Dominant Forward Ever.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Cleveland LeBron was the MDEF. Most Dominant Forward Ever.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Lebron23]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Is prime Kobe capable of winning 66 and 60 games with Mo Williams as his 2nd scoring option?

I don't think so. He needs a dominant big men like Shaq, Gasol/Odom/Bynum.

[Showtime2001]

Ok. I thought it was a late video. But anyway Lebron put up better numbers than Kobe, and his team won 66 games despite having a less talented supporting casts than Kobe.
His team won 66 games and 61 games with a talented supporting cast and then quit on his team in the playoffs meanwhile Kobe led his talented supporting casts to 65 and 57 wins in a much stronger conference and won back to back titles.

It's really that simple deal with it.

[Showtime2001]

Is prime Kobe capable of winning 66 and 60 games with Mo Williams as his 2nd scoring option?

I don't think so. He needs a dominant big men like Shaq, Gasol/Odom/Bynum.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Can prime Kobe won 66 and 60 games with Mo Williams as his 2nd scoring option?

I don't think so. He needs a dominant big men like Shaq, Gasol/Odom/Bynum.


Lebron had two back to back seasons with 60+ wins on the cavs, then runs away to play with Wade and Bosh and couldn't put together two 60+ win season..

yet you still claim he had no help in Cleveland..

do you realize how dumb that sounds? He couldn't lead his team to multiple 60+ win season with Wade and Bosh but he was able to do it with the Cavs where he "had no help"

:wtf: :wtf:

[Lebron23]

Lebron's team in Miami were build for the playoffs. LeBron's team in Cleveland overachieved in the regular season due to his godly stats, and LeBron was at the peak of his athletic ability.

Mike Brown is a terrible coach. And you also experienced it when he coached your Lakers.

[TheMarkMadsen]

So Lebron couldn't lead Wade/Bosh to multiple 60+ win seasons but he was able to do it with "no help" when he was playing for the Cavs?

That doesn't make any sense..

if he really had no help with the Cavs then as soon as he began playing with Wade and Bosh they should have been rallying off 60+ wins every season..

but he didn't..


and somehow you still think he had "no help" with the Cavs.. he can lead the Cavs to 60+ wins in 10 but can't lead Wade/Bosh to 60+ wins the very next season..?

OK THEN..

[Lebron23]

So Lebron couldn't lead Wade/Bosh to multiple 60+ win seasons but he was able to do it with "no help" when he was playing for the Cavs?

That doesn't make any sense..

if he really had no help with the Cavs then as soon as he began playing with Wade and Bosh they should have been rallying off 60+ wins every season..

but he didn't..


and somehow you still think he had "no help" with the Cavs.. he can lead the Cavs to 60+ wins in 10 but can't lead Wade/Bosh to 60+ wins the very next season..?

OK THEN..


LeBron in 2009 and 2010 was a better athlete than LeBron in 2011-2014.

And the Heat won 66 games in 2013. And it almost costs them an NBA title in the playoffs. LeBron, Wade, and Bosh were pretty sluggish. and tired at the start of the post season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2013.html

[ballinhun8]

Don't do em like that MarkMadsen!!

[Showtime2001]

All the "no help" talk really came right after the Cavs lost to Orlando in 09' & Boston in 10' before that all everyone would say is that the Cavs were the team to beat and were the clear title favorites.

So yeah...:rolleyes:

[Dresta]

Those Cleveland teams were clearly catered towards Lebron's ball-dominant and bullish style of play (good shooters, a big man that doesn't clog the pain, and a bunch of good defenders). He had plenty of help really. You don't need fellow-stars to have "help"--a team of guys who fill the roles you want, and who cater to your best player's strengths, can often be enough.

[Cold soul]

All three players had amazing years in 09 in regular season I give it to Wade or Lebron but playoffs Kobe all the way with Lebron not too far off being 2nd. As diehard fan of Wade and Kobe you can make case for any of the three it's pretty interchangeable no right or wrong answers here. We should appreciate it as fans as amazing basketball being played by these HOF players respect and admire it no need to downplay to make one better look better than other.

[Cold soul]

I do however feel 09 Wade was peak season he was unbelievable good like Jordan good in his early days. I can't think of better season from Wade expect for maybe 06 with his playoff and Finals run.

[Wade's Rings]

Those Cleveland teams were clearly catered towards Lebron's ball-dominant and bullish style of play (good shooters, a big man that doesn't clog the pain, and a bunch of good defenders). He had plenty of help really. You don't need fellow-stars to have "help"--a team of guys who fill the roles you want, and who cater to your best player's strengths, can often be enough.

Thank You :applause: :applause:

Those teams were made perfectly for Bron.

[ArbitraryWater]

Look, people trying to evaluate LeBron's help through their regular season record, conveniently leaving out the weight he pulled to actually achieve those marks :oldlol:

We saw how good those '60 win teams' were the next year... hell, we saw it already in 2009 and 2010, when the Cavaliers went 1-6 without LeBron...

god damn thats terrible the more I think about it.

But ay, surround him with spot up shooters and he's good enough to get that team #1 records, and everyone like sheep will go "it was suited to his strengths!" Only because his strengths allow a team to be built in various ways around him. This roster wouldn't even work half as good with someone like Kobe, who'd max win 49 games.

[Magic 32]

But ay, surround him with spot up shooters and he's good enough to get that team #1 records

and one of the best defensive teams.

And of course he lost against every team of merit for 5 straight years in the playoffs.

This was his crowning achievement...

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0316/rise_g_cwebber1_400.jpg

[Smoke117]

and one of the best defensive teams.

And of course he lost against every team of merit for 5 straight years in the playoffs.

This was his crowning achievement...

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0316/rise_g_cwebber1_400.jpg


...yeah because the Lakers were in the finals in 2004 agains the Pistons because of Kobrick...:facepalm What the hell is wrong with you? I know you are a fan, but do you really believe all this ****ing garbage you spewed out of your mouth? I'm a nice guy and I like to give people the benefit of the doubt...but you and your ****ing mouth are joke that nobody should respect...bitch.

There has never been a fanbase that calls for patience more than these Kobe stans...and I'm not a patient man.

[aj1987]

So Lebron couldn't lead Wade/Bosh to multiple 60+ win seasons but he was able to do it with "no help" when he was playing for the Cavs?

That doesn't make any sense..

if he really had no help with the Cavs then as soon as he began playing with Wade and Bosh they should have been rallying off 60+ wins every season..

but he didn't..

and somehow you still think he had "no help" with the Cavs.. he can lead the Cavs to 60+ wins in 10 but can't lead Wade/Bosh to 60+ wins the very next season..?

OK THEN..
'11 and '13 were the only times they could've won 60+. The '11 Heat were terrible outside the big 3 and the big 3 themselves didn't have too much security. They were winning because of the big 3 taking turns to destroy teams.

Can you also tell me what help LeBron actually had and what those players are doing RN?

[Magic 32]

...yeah because the Lakers were in the finals in 2004 agains the Pistons because of Kobrick...:facepalm

I'm a nice guy and I like to give people the benefit of the doubt

Comparing the 2004 Pistons to the 2007 Pistons is disingenuous.

Nice people are not disingenuous.

[raprap]

These Kobe stans :roll:

[Smoke117]

Comparing the 2004 Pistons to the 2007 Pistons is disingenuous.

Nice people are not disingenuous.

humph...you just looked up how to spell disingenuous, eh? You must have as you had this absurd reason to say it twice within two sentences. *smirk* Maybe you wouldn't' have to try so hard if you actually knew a ****ing thing about basketball? Food for thought.

[Magic 32]

humph...you just looked up how to spell disingenuous, eh? You must have as you had this absurd reason to say it twice within two sentences. *smirk* Maybe you wouldn't' have to try so hard if you actually knew a ****ing thing about basketball? Food for thought.

Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.

Hope that helps.

[Smoke117]

Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.

Hope that helps.

Ah...so you think you are witty and clever? Let me help you on this one...you aren't. You are a joke here and the only thing you merit is derision, scorn, and laughter. (at you)

[Magic 32]

Ah...so you think you are witty and clever? Let me help you on this one...you aren't. You are a joke here and the only thing you merit is derision, scorn, and laughter. (at you)

Your anger and persistent responses tells me that you are being "not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does" again.

[DMAVS41]

Those Cleveland teams were clearly catered towards Lebron's ball-dominant and bullish style of play (good shooters, a big man that doesn't clog the pain, and a bunch of good defenders). He had plenty of help really. You don't need fellow-stars to have "help"--a team of guys who fill the roles you want, and who cater to your best player's strengths, can often be enough.

This is fine for regular season success and early round playoff success, but history has proven that teams without legit 2nd guys at or near all nba caliber rarely win in the playoffs.

You play other great or elite teams and you need a 2nd guy or at least some better role players that can do things on their own when need be.

Those Cavs teams were good, but certainly not great or elite.

The Mavericks, post 2003 really, suffered from the same issues. An all time great surrounded by good role players, but lacking that 2nd guy to really give other elite teams in the playoffs trouble and game plan for.

If, for example, those Cavs teams had a guy like Kawhi...then they would have been legit title capable.

Running out Mo Williams and Jamison and Moon...and Parker...and those caliber of players...it's just gonna be really hard to beat the other best teams in the league. It can be done, but if Lebron's 09 Magic series wasn't good enough to even make it out of the East...then you know you have a team problem.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

But Wade had a higher RAPM than Kobe, and Kobe's teammate (Odom) had a higher RAPM than both of them.

That stat is a severely flawed mathematical abstraction.

He didn't.

Click on the "SWaGR" tab which by extension is RAPM, as it adjusts for games played.

The flaw? Most stats are and will NEVER beat actually watching games. The fact this metric is used by MUCH of the league gives it at least some notoriety, IMO.