LeBron should have been the MVP in 2006

[Lebron23]

Cavaliers won 50 games while the Suns won 54 games in the regular season. LeBron put up better numbers than Nash.

Lebron also destroyed the Suns in the regular season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqE-DrcWV6I

Lebron James 44 pts,11 reb,7 ast,,,,season 2006 cavs vs suns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL_046is51Q

LeBron James - 46 pts, 8 asts vs Suns Full Highlights (2006.01.14)

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Dirk was MVP, Kobe was best player

[navy]

One of the worst mvps ever

[Lebron23]

Lebron should have been the youngest MVP in History, Not Derrick Rose.


1st place: steve nash- 18.8ppg...10.5apg...4.2rpg...team record(54-28)

2nd place: lebron james- 31.4ppg...6.6apg...7rpg...team record(50-32)

3rd place: dirk nowitzki- 26.6ppg...2.8apg...9rpg...team record(60-22)

4th place: kobe bryant- 35.4ppg...4.5apg...5.3rpg...team record(45-37)

5th place: chauncey billups-18.5ppg...8.6apg...3.1rpg...team record(64-18)

[Marchesk]

Meh, he got 4 MVPs. The real issue is that Kobe, Shaq and Hakeem, all considered top 10 players, have only 1 :lol

Wade didn't even get one.

Meanwhile

http://www.fulcrumgallery.com/product-images/P227869-10/steve-nash-2006-nba-mvp-with-trophy.jpg

[Lebron23]

Larry Hughes only played 31 games in the regular season.

[Marchesk]

1st place: steve nash- 18.8ppg...10.5apg...4.2rpg...team record(54-28)

This is what it took for a perimiter player to win MVP in the 60s:

31.4 ppg, 11.3 apg, 9.9 rpg, 55-25

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/oscar-robertson-cincinnati.jpg

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe had 27 forty point games that season, scored 62 in 3 quarters, 81 against the Raptors, averaged 35/5/5/2 on 56% TS, had 2 months of averaging 40+ ppg (only other player to average 40 in a month was Wilt) took a team that featured Smush and Kwame as the 3rd and 4th best players to the playoffs in the western conference, averaged 36/5/5 post all star break, had 6 fifty+ point games, Lebron has 10 in his entire career.

Lebron wasn't even that good defensively that year, didn't make the all nba defensive team which according to you Lebron stans is "all based off hype" yet somehow the most hyped player of this generation couldn't make the team..

Kobe was 2nd in first place MVP votes, but somehow finished 4th on the ballot, there were some voters that completely left him off the ballot.. it was a joke..

That Lakers team wins maybe 10 games without Kobe, he was the most complete player in the league that season.

[Prime_Shaq]

Nope.

[Im Still Ballin]

Yeah definitely

He backed it up in the playoffs too

[Lebron23]

Yeah definitely

He backed it up in the playoffs too


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpiMtLxh7NA


Lebron James 41 pts vs Gilbert Arenas 34 pts, playoffs 2006, cavs vs wizards game 3

[Im Still Ballin]

He was 3 points away from beating the 2006 64 win Pistons

[ballinhun8]

50 wins in the East back then was easy. It was the Heat and Pistons and that's it.

[SouBeachTalents]

'05 & '06 were nearly impossible seasons for choosing an MVP. Both seasons had multiple players that had legit arguments for MVP

[WayOfWade]

'05 & '06 were nearly impossible seasons for choosing an MVP. Both seasons had multiple players that had legit arguments for MVP
True, I would've given it to Dirk Personally, but LeBron and Kobe both put up insane numbers while Nash actually won the MVP. I prefer that over the simple 1 or 2 horse MVP race we see nowadays though

[knicksman]

Bran already have 4 mvps despite being just 2/6. Ungrateful bran stans

[3ball]

.
Lebron achieves his APG by significantly lowering the APG and assist % of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):. 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):. 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'):. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with..... Lebron (2015):.. 5.2, 25.0%

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):.. 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):.. 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN:. 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:.. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron:.. 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron:.. 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93':. 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95':. 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98':. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)


It's bad enough that Lebron reduces his teammates' APG (playmaking), but he also increases their assisted rate (play-finishing)!!!... Therefore, it's statistical fact that Lebron turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers.

Unfortunately, his teammates' predictable play-finishing roles don't work against the best playoff teams - since teammates are playing undercapacity, the TEAM plays undercapacity/underperforms (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals) (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html).

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates (elevates teammates), while Lebron doesn't (he turns them into play-finishers).

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. The reason is twofold (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60).
.

[Lebron23]

.
Lebron achieves his APG by significantly lowering the APG and assist % of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):. 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):. 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'):. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with..... Lebron (2015):.. 5.2, 25.0%

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):.. 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):.. 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN:. 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:.. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron:.. 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron:.. 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93':. 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95':. 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98':. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)


It's bad enough that Lebron reduces his teammates' APG (playmaking), but he also increases their assisted rate (play-finishing)!!!... Therefore, it's statistical fact that Lebron turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers.. With this new understanding, we can explain the playoff underperformance of Lebron's teammates and teams:

Lebron minimizes teammates into predictable, play-finishing roles that no longer succeed against the best teams in the playoffs - since teammates can't play to capacity in these roles and underperform, the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals) (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html).

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers (thus preventing them from playing to capacity against the best teams)?.. The reason is twofold (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60).

Get that weak stuff out of here.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/xTiTnmR0IQeqJxGBfG/200_s.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

.
Lebron achieves his APG by significantly lowering the APG and assist % of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):. 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):. 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'):. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with..... Lebron (2015):.. 5.2, 25.0%

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):.. 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):.. 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN:. 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:.. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron:.. 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron:.. 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93':. 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95':. 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98':. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)


It's bad enough that Lebron reduces his teammates' APG (playmaking), but he also increases their assisted rate (play-finishing)!!!... Therefore, it's statistical fact that Lebron turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers.. With this new understanding, we can explain the playoff underperformance of Lebron's teammates and teams:

Lebron minimizes teammates into predictable, play-finishing roles that no longer succeed against the best teams in the playoffs - since teammates can't play to capacity in these roles and underperform, the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals) (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html).

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers (thus preventing them from playing to capacity against the best teams)?.. The reason is twofold (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60).
.

I'm sure Bosh, Kyrie & Love would gladly trade in a whopping half an assist a game to experience postseason success, something they had no part of before playing with LeBron

[masonanddixon]

No he shouldn't have. Dirk, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Wade, and Nash were all better.

Dirk should have won MVP.

[Gileraracer]

Therefore he got Melos rookie of the year award

[Dresta]

OP has mental difficulties.

Kobe should've won in 06.

[3ball]

I'm sure Bosh, Kyrie & Love would gladly trade in a whopping half an assist a game to experience postseason success, something they had no part of before playing with LeBron
Bosh's playoff success was due to Wade, not just Lebron - they had a stacked team.

Regarding Kyrie and Love - again, those two guys were all-star players who played together for the first time - so it wasn't just Lebron - the Cavs success was due to having a stacked team.

But who cares because you're missing the point: Lebron doesn't compare to MJ because he minimizes teammates into predictable play-finishing roles that don't work against the best playoff teams - since teammates are playing undercapacity, the TEAM plays undercapacity/underperforms..

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates (elevates teammates), while Lebron doesn't (he turns them into play-finishers).

[pastis]

Dirk Nowitzki 2006

Winning 60 Games
led the league in Win Shares,
led the league in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes,
led the league in Offensive Win Shares, Offensive Rating and Player Efficiency Rating
7th in Points Per Game, 17th in Defensive Win Shares, 6th Defensive Rebounds, 14th in Total Rebounds, 16th in Rebounds per game, 7th in Value Over Replacement Player.
Stats: 26.6 PTS, 9.0 TRB, 1.0 BLK, 2.8 AST, 0.7 STL, 48.0 FG%, 40.6 3PT%, 90.1 FT%.

[GrapeApe]

Bosh's playoff success was due to Wade, not just Lebron - they had a stacked team.

Regarding Kyrie and Love - again, those two guys were all-star players who played together for the first time - so it wasn't just Lebron - their success was due to having a stacked team all year long (Kyrie, Love, Mosgov, Tristan, JR Smith, Shumpert, Delly - that's a stacked team).

But who cares because you're missing the point: Lebron doesn't compare to MJ because he turns teammates into predictable play-finishers - their predictable play-finishing roles causes them to play undercapacity/underperform against the best playoff teams, which causes the TEAM to play undercapacity/underperform..

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates (elevates teammates), while Lebron doesn't (he turns them into play-finishers).

No, I'm pretty sure you're the one missing the point since Jordan has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Did Jordan play in 2006? If the answer to that question is no, there's no reason whatsoever to bring him up.

As far as I'm concerned, the MVP award jumped the shark in 2005 and 2006. Nash had no business winning those awards. Lebron certainly had a case in 2006 as did a few others. I'd have given it to Dirk. It's still hard to comprehend how Nash has the same amount of MVP's as Shaq, Kobe, and Wade combined.

[ImKobe]

Suns were missing Amare, their 2nd best player

big reason why Nash got his 2nd MVP

So Lebron won 5 more games than Kobe's team with a better roster in a worse conference, 2 less than Wade and he deserved the MVP? Kobe was chucking it 27 times a game and still was as efficient as Bron

even AI was putting up 33 ppg 7 apg

[SexSymbol]

Either Kobe or Dirk should've been the MVP.
LeBron should've been 3rd-4th with Nash

[Kawhi]

This is what it took for a perimiter player to win MVP in the 60s:

31.4 ppg, 11.3 apg, 9.9 rpg, 55-25

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/oscar-robertson-cincinnati.jpg
You mean when a pace of 115.9 was considered below average?

[raprap]

I thought kobe deserved it tbh but i dont have a problem with nash winning it.

[ArbitraryWater]

50 wins in the East back then was easy. It was the Heat and Pistons and that's it.

so only 2 other teams winning 50 games leads to your assumption of it being easy?

I like how your brain works!

Anyway, Dirk should have won it.

[aj1987]

50 wins in the East back then was easy. It was the Heat and Pistons and that's it.
The West was pretty much the same? :confusedshrug:

Spurs, Suns, and Mavs. That's it.

[feyki]

Dirk got too much underrating back then .

Lebron had more first place votes than Dirk and even Billups :facepalm .

Dirk should has been clear mvp . And then Kobe and Nash for #2 and #3 . And last Lebron .

[DMAVS41]

Dirk should have been MVP, imo, that season....

But sure, I'd take Lebron and Kobe over Nash as MVP that season as well.

Just a 27/9/3 59% TS 28.1 PER season for Dirk on a team he led to 60 wins without another all star or all nba player.

Not to mention that Howard, Daniels, Stack, Griffin, and Harris all missed significant time. Those guys were all top 9 rotation players and they missed roughly a combined 125 games.

That was peak Dirk being under-rated time in the basketball community...he was as good or better than anyone that regular season and definitely had the best MVP argument historically.

Given the criteria usually followed...I don't see much of an argument for Nash over Dirk that season.

His team won 6 less games and Nash had much worse stats.

People forget how great Marion was at that point of his career. I won't argue he was more valuable than Nash, but Marion was about twice as good as anyone on Dallas....and was a two way monster.

People just thought the Suns would be worse without Amare, but when you have a 22/12/2 defensive force in Marion to pick up the slack...winning 54 games in the regular season is just not impressive enough for Nash to win another MVP over the likes of Dirk that season.

[Nash]

.
Lebron achieves his APG by significantly lowering the APG and assist % of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):. 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):. 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'):. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with..... Lebron (2015):.. 5.2, 25.0%

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):.. 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):.. 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN:. 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:.. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron:.. 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron:.. 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93':. 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95':. 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98':. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)


It's bad enough that Lebron reduces his teammates' APG (playmaking), but he also increases their assisted rate (play-finishing)!!!... Therefore, it's statistical fact that Lebron turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers.

Unfortunately, his teammates' predictable play-finishing roles don't work against the best playoff teams - since teammates are playing undercapacity, the TEAM plays undercapacity/underperforms (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals) (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html).

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates (elevates teammates), while Lebron doesn't (he turns them into play-finishers).

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. The reason is twofold (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60).
.
Rodman before Jordan: 17 rpg
Rodman with Jordan: 15 rpg

Rodman before Jordan: 7 ppg
Rodman with Jordan: 5 ppg

Jordan made Rodman worse.

Ron Harper before Jordan: 20ppg
Ron Harper with Jordan: 7ppg

JOrdan made Ron Harper worse.

[feyki]

Rodman before Jordan: 17 rpg
Rodman with Jordan: 15 rpg

Rodman before Jordan: 7 ppg
Rodman with Jordan: 5 ppg

Jordan made Rodman worse.

Ron Harper before Jordan: 20ppg
Ron Harper with Jordan: 7ppg

JOrdan made Ron Harper worse.

Also , Ron Harper was all star level player before Jordan . And great two way player .

[Young X]

The voting should've went like:

Nowitzki
Bryant
James
Wade
Nash

I would rather Nash win in 2007 over Dirk than in 2006. Not saying he would've deserved it over him that year but the gap is closer in 2007.

Kobe had the most spectacular regular season but his team didn't win enough games. Can't remember the last time an MVP was on a 5th-8th seed.

[Lebron23]

Imagine that LeBron playing in 2020. His numbers would be much better

[StrongLurk]

Agreed, although it was a weak year for MVPS and Kobe was the best player regardless of MVP.

[Lebron23]

He was 3 points away from beating the 2006 64 win Pistons

Just watched that series again remarkable performance from a 21 years old.

[Whoah10115]

Kobe or Nash, and I'm not sure that LeBron was better than Dirk and Wade.

See. That's accurate.


LeBron was definitely worthy tho.

[Axe]

Bran would definitely get it if he's carried the cavs to 60-wins that year.

[ELITEpower23]

Lebron should have been the youngest MVP in History, Not Derrick Rose.


1st place: steve nash- 18.8ppg...10.5apg...4.2rpg...team record(54-28)

2nd place: lebron james- 31.4ppg...6.6apg...7rpg...team record(50-32)

3rd place: dirk nowitzki- 26.6ppg...2.8apg...9rpg...team record(60-22)

4th place: kobe bryant- 35.4ppg...4.5apg...5.3rpg...team record(45-37)

5th place: chauncey billups-18.5ppg...8.6apg...3.1rpg...team record(64-18)

That looks like Dirk's MVP to me.

[ELITEpower23]

On second thought do they vote MVP after the Finals? I wonder if Dirk's choke in 2006 had anything to do with the MVP floating away from him, and conversely I wonder if he won his FMVP in 2006 does he also win MVP. How does the timing work on the MVP?

[Lebron23]

Bran would definitely get it if he's carried the cavs to 60-wins that year.

Larry Hughes only played 31 game during that season.

[Axe]

Larry Hughes only played 31 game during that season.
Was he the second best player in that team

[GimmeThat]

maybe he was the most improved player, if the most improved player didn't play with last season's MVP.

[Axe]

Nope, boris diaw was the mip that year.

[Roundball_Rock]

Nah Nash deserved it. People ignore his impact on his teammates. Here is some info from another thread:

Amare 56% with Nash, 50% without him
Marion 53% with Nash, 46% without him (traded in season)
Johnson 46% with Nash, 45% without him
Diaw 57% with Nash, 50% without him (traded in season)
Bell 43% with Nash, 44% without him (traded)
Richardson 47% with Nash, 43% without him (traded)
Hill 45% with Nash, 39% without him

LeBron eventually had a similar impact but I don't think he was there yet in 06'.

[Lebron23]

Was he the second best player in that team

Yes, terrible signing by the Cavaliers.

[ImKobe]

Nah Nash deserved it. People ignore his impact on his teammates. Here is some info from another thread:

Amare 56% with Nash, 50% without him
Marion 53% with Nash, 46% without him (traded in season)
Johnson 46% with Nash, 45% without him
Diaw 57% with Nash, 50% without him (traded in season)
Bell 43% with Nash, 44% without him (traded)
Richardson 47% with Nash, 43% without him (traded)
Hill 45% with Nash, 39% without him

LeBron eventually had a similar impact but I don't think he was there yet in 06'.

Amare, Marion, Diaw & JJ got traded to lottery teams, of course their efficiency dropped. Marion's efficiency went back to normal once he was on the Mavs. Not sure why you'd even mention JJ when he was a 3rd option in Phoenix and a #1 option on a terrible Hawks' squad, surprising his FG% didn't go down much because he shot lights out from 3 in '05 (huge aberration career-wise at ~48% from 3).

Diaw's FG% drop seems dramatic, but then you look into it and he only played 22 games at 24 mpg for the Suns in '09 while not taking any 3s (0.6 3PA) to playing 37.6 mpg and taking 2.8 threes a game at 42% for the Hornets as one of the main options on that offense. So, Grant Hill was 39 years old in his last season with Phoenix (49 games, 28 mpg) and was finished once he tried playing 15 mpg on the Clippers the next season at 40, not sure if it's Nash or just him being too old.

Marion was really valuable for the '06 Suns and led them in almost all stats (raw & advanced) but passing. I'm surprised Dirk didn't get more love in the MVP voting, he led the Mavs to 60 wins without an all-star teammate & without an elite defense, he led the league in PER, WS/48 & was 4th in RAPM, Nash was 115th in RAPM in comparison. As much impact as Nash had offensively, he wasn't even top 30 in ORAPM that season & you already know he was a negative on defense. His On/Off numbers were really good though and he led the league in assists & TS%, but that's not good enough to win MVP when Dirk's out there winning more games and leading the Mavs to a better offense.

[Roundball_Rock]

Amare, Marion, Diaw & JJ got traded to lottery teams

Phoenix was a 29 win team when Nash got there...


Marion's efficiency went back to normal once he was on the Mavs

He was at 59% in his last 2 1/2 years in Phoenix--never came close to that in Dallas.


Not sure why you'd even mention JJ when he was a 3rd option in Phoenix and a #1 option on a terrible Hawks' squad

It's called a honest analysis: you include all relevant data, even if it doesn't support your point. No need to cherry pick. Try it some time.

Nash was an all-time great passer/facilitator. You and your ilk from the 2ball school of basketball obsess over scoring and don't grasp the value passers/facilitators have to their teams via raising their teams' efficiency.

As to Kobe, his teams consistently were the same with or without him. That hardly screams "MVP."

[Lebron23]

He was 3 points away from beating the 2006 64 win Pistons

Best 21 years old in nba history

[HoopsNY]

Phoenix was a 29 win team when Nash got there...



He was at 59% in his last 2 1/2 years in Phoenix--never came close to that in Dallas.



It's called a honest analysis: you include all relevant data, even if it doesn't support your point. No need to cherry pick. Try it some time.

Nash was an all-time great passer/facilitator. You and your ilk from the 2ball school of basketball obsess over scoring and don't grasp the value passers/facilitators have to their teams via raising their teams' efficiency.

As to Kobe, his teams consistently were the same with or without him. That hardly screams "MVP."

I miss debating with this guy. Imagine thinking that the 2006 Lakers would have been the same with or without Kobe, (despite the fact that LA was 0-2 that season without Kobe). That team was atrocious.

LA is probably a 10-15 team without Kobe that year.

[Mr.GOAT2408]

The award should have gone to Kobe, West was a lot stronger than East that season (well, most of the 21st century but particularly around that time the 00s West was ridiculous) and the Lakers graded as a stronger team via SRS and Net Rating despite the 0 - 2 without Kobe (and Cleveland 3 - 0 with LeBron) - not that it's everything but it's something, Bron hadn't yet mastered deceptive Bronball yet :lol and that's reflected in some of his key teammates still winning even without LeBron alongside them (via pbpstats)

LA's offense was horrendous without Kobe (about as high of an offensive swing as you can get (maybe the highest we have recorded?) and Kobe wasn't even handling the ball that much (which is deceptive impact) compared to what today's players or compared to how much guys like Magic/West/Robertson handled ball, they were still running the triangle he was just looking to score more than usual because they 100% needed him to score) and the only reason his defensive on/off looks bad was because the Lakers knew they had no one else on offense (consistent, Odom was very inconsistent) so they had a defensive shift in place + Profit was actually not a bad defender + that data has always been unreliable with perimeter players

The Suns were loaded with talent even without STAT, them going 54 - 28 with Nash, Marion, Diaw, Bell, and Barbosa coming off bench should not have surprised anyone + they still had some good depth. I think by 2021 we all now know how useful those versatile low usage two way forwards/wings like Marion/Diaw can be and Nash was flanked by those 2 on top of Bell who was a great 3 point shooter and defender. Having STAT would have been overkill. Diaw actually had the highest +- and on/off on that team and sure enough the Suns did better with him and no Nash in lineup than they did with Nash and no Diaw in the lineup (with a slightly larger sample size for Diaw no Nash, both roughly 950 minutes) which makes sense, Diaw obviously wasn't better but he provided defense and playmaking to a team full of good scorers even without Nash/Amare. Makes perfect sense

That leaves Dirk who would have been in my top 3 with Kobe and LeBron. Strong season but the Mavs always did a great job building a team around him, Terry never made the AS team but he was absolutely AS caliber alongside Howard who did make it. Going through pbpstats they were usually fine without Dirk so long as Howard/Terry were in the rotation. Go through the 2006 Lakers and literally NO ONE on that team did anywhere near fine without Kobe even if they were still paired up with the other starters like Odom (in 507 minutes the Lakers were a -7.66 with Odom but no Kobe in the lineup :eek:), you're not finding anything similar with the other MVP candidates that year

So easy choice for me, the record prevents it from being unanimous MVP caliber but I don't care for that stuff anyway (most of those seasons happened in weak MVP years with great supporting casts lmao), the MVP to me should always go to the most outstanding and really it's hard to argue the other 3 were more valuable to their team on top of Kobe having the historic season he did

[Mr.GOAT2408]

I miss debating with this guy. Imagine thinking that the 2006 Lakers would have been the same with or without Kobe, (despite the fact that LA was 0-2 that season without Kobe). That team was atrocious.

LA is probably a 10-15 team without Kobe that year.
That guy doesn't know what he's talking about, my post above this one goes over why Nash's 06 season was overrated from an impact standpoint (and only an idiot would dispute he was in a great situation even without STAT, he's a very flawed player from a pure skillset standpoint due to size/defense which frankly should be more important because impact is derived from skillset and some skillsets are simply easier and more reliable to produce high value, championship level basketball than others)

The D'Antoni Suns had a top 8ish offense in the 2004 season so long as Amare was playing (I am going off memory but pretty sure that was the case), it was a young team that was only going to get better on top of the 04 rule change really helping Nash out. Congrats on replacing Marbury and joining an ideal situation for a pass first sharpshooter with some glaring flaws that a team of full of versatile forwards/wings could negate, it never fooled me and it never will but it sure has fooled a ton of people

The Shaq Lakers were not built around Kobe (why would they? Until the 2002-2003 season when his defense/conditioning fell off Shaq was the team's best player) and Kobe was dealing with injuries/poorly built rosters after 2010 but in his peak (that 06-10 stretch) he was as high impact as you can get despite not always having a great cast and playing in the triangle offense which is supposed to deter from that. Anyone that watched the Lakers knows he was a great playmaker from both a passing and from a shot creation (because teams doubled/tilted Kobe all the damn time, there was never a possession where one or two teammates DIDN'T have a wide open shot and it often came without Kobe even touching the ball) but he didn't handle the ball like 8+ minutes. Maybe in today's NBA where it's gotten so easy for one guy to just QB their team's offense he'd have done it (he obviously had the skillset, even Lowe can see at least 30/9 out of him today and he's definitely not a "stan") but not in the triangle, not if he wanted to play like MJ who had a successful run playing the way he did in the 90s and logically a guy with a similar build would want to play a similar brand of basketball in order to win

That 2006 team in particular was absolute garbage without Kobe, even with a defensive slant the offense was too horrible without him for that to matter

We all know where his agenda lies though, undermining scoring and overrating playmaking is his way of arguing LeBron over MJ :lol

[3ball]

Lebron couldn't make the 2nd Round without a 2-time all-star center, the future COY, a 22/6/5 acquisition and a top rebounding/defensive team - that's easily enough to compete in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won.

Otoh, young Jordan played in a conference that required a super-team to win, yet he made the 2nd Round with a simple rebounder (oakley).

Furthermore, the 05' Cavs had a much better team defense than the 90' Bulls (#12 vs #19), while Zydrunas was a top 5 rim protector/all-star with better offense than Pippen (scoring, efficiency, PER, WS/48)...

Accordingly, 90' Jordan nearly led a worse cast than the 05' Cavs to the title, while Lebron needed a much better cast than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy.

[kawhileonard2]

Dirk was MVP, Kobe was best player

This

[Lebron23]

Lebron was really the mvp of that season. Hughes missed plenty of games

[Lebron23]

That LeBron would be averaging 38 ppg in today's nba

[8Ball]

Yup.

Nash robbed 2 MVPs. From Shaq and Bron.

[SaintzFury13]

Meh, he got 4 MVPs. The real issue is that Kobe, Shaq and Hakeem, all considered top 10 players, have only 1 :lol

Wade didn't even get one.

Meanwhile

http://www.fulcrumgallery.com/product-images/P227869-10/steve-nash-2006-nba-mvp-with-trophy.jpg

I need to know who at this point seriously considers Kobe to be top ten. I just don't see the justification for him being there.

[Gileraracer]

That LeBron would be averaging 38 ppg in today's nba

and 15ppg in the 90s

[Lebron23]

That Lebron would average 39 ppg in today's 3 points shooting era.

[MadDog]

I would say Kobe. Highest ORPM and the Lakers were one of the worst teams historically when Kobe sat. His impact was off the charts in 2006. From 2006-2008, Kobe was probably the best player in the game.

[dankok8]

Kobe also had a great case. He carried that team on his back seemingly every night. Just 45 wins is troublesome. Dirk also had a good case. 60 wins with a deep roster but no secondary stars where he did some pretty heavy lifting.

But about Nash... He missed 3 games and the Suns went 0-3. With Nash in the lineup they played at a 57-win pace hardly worse than the previous year even though Stoudemire missed the entire season. Nash is still the best choice IMO.

[John8204]

It's clearly one of the worst MVP's in NBA history, the irony was you could have given it to Lebron or basically the other three guys that got awards that year

DPOY - Ben Wallace - would have been a fine option if you go best player on best team that was Ben
ROTY - Chris Paul - had a 20w swing on his team and started his career of adding value to every team he ever played on
Top Scorer - Kobe Bryant - had his 81 pt game that year

[Lebron23]

Cavaliers won 50 games while the Suns won 54 games in the regular season. LeBron put up better numbers than Nash.

Lebron also destroyed the Suns in the regular season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqE-DrcWV6I

Lebron James 44 pts,11 reb,7 ast,,,,season 2006 cavs vs suns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL_046is51Q

LeBron James - 46 pts, 8 asts vs Suns Full Highlights (2006.01.14)


Team LeBron was also 4-0 vs Nash and Kobe's team

[TheGoatest]

2006 is just one of the seasons where the criteria for MVP was flip-flopped back and forth just so LeBron couldn't win it.
That season apparently team record was more important than stats, so the vastly statistically inferior Steve Nash's team's 4 more wins than LeBron's team's were apparently that vital, even though there was a team that had 6 more wins, another team that had 9 more wins and yet another team that had 10 more wins than Nash's team.
Also, Shawn Marion was literally twice the player than anybody LeBron had on his roster.

[WhiteKyrie]

Hell no. Eastern conference was trash. It was between Kobe and Nash. And Kobe was better individually and did as much as he could with far less talent, and in a more difficult conference.

[1987_Lakers]

I think they got the voting right.

Kobe was the best player that year but his team sucked. Suns lost Amare and the Suns still have one of the best records in the league, due to Nash.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk had the best case, clearly.

[HoopsNY]

It's reasonable that Nash won it. Stop being a stan for once in your life.

[Lebron23]

He was 3 points away from beating the 2006 64 win Pistons


True. That game made me a LeBron believer.

[Full Court]

Well that's been the story of most of Bronie's career, hasn't it, OP? Coming up short.

:roll:


:lebroncry:

[Lebron23]

This lebron would average 37-40 ppg in today's NBA

[Lebron23]

2006 Bron was simply amazing

[Lebron23]

He was 3 points away from beating the 2006 64 win Pistons

As a 21 years old kid.

[dankok8]

Lebron wasn't really good against the 2006 Pistons. Not a disaster like in 2007 against the Spurs but a mediocre series by him.

[Jimmy Rustler]

2006 Bron was simply amazing

2011 LeShrivel was way more astounding.