If Derrick Rose was never injured, would he have a ring right now?

[keep-itreal]

Lebron and healthy Rose only faced each other in a series once.

It's been like 4 years since he tore his ACL, how do you think those 4 seasons would've turned out if he wasn't injured?

Having a healthy Rose and Jimmy Butler would probably be good enough to beat Lebron so I'd say yes

[nathanjizzle]

Yes, atleast two. lebron wouldnt have made the finals so many times if rose did not go down.

[Cocaine80s]

Not sure if srs

[nathanjizzle]

Also, i would like to add that he will most likely win 2 by the end of his career.

[Smoke117]

Yes, atleast two. lebron wouldnt have made the finals so many times if rose did not go down.

http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mr_chang_senor_chang_laugh_spits_milk.gif

I can't even be mad at this...it's like my 5 year old niece trying to reason with me...it' sjust adorable.

[L.A. Jazz]

finals yes, ring no.

[nathanjizzle]

http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mr_chang_senor_chang_laugh_spits_milk.gif

I can't even be mad at this...it's like my 5 year old niece trying to reason with me...it' sjust adorable.

i usually dont respond to trolls but some just need to be put in their place. and in your case, the kiddie table.

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=6211167

[Graviton]

i usually dont respond to trolls but some just need to be put in their place. and in your case, the kiddie table.

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=6211167
And we all know how good MJ is at evaluating teams and talent, just look at his work with the Bobcats.

[Smoke117]

i usually dont respond to trolls but some just need to be put in their place. and in your case, the kiddie table.

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=6211167

Wait...so your rebuttal is something Michael Jordan said?...one of worst evaluators of basketball talent ever...Lol.

[pastis]

And we all know how good MJ is at evaluating teams and talent, just look at his work with the Bobcats.

https://giant.gfycat.com/AppropriateSnarlingAvocet.gif

[nathanjizzle]

Wait...so your rebuttal is something Michael Jordan said?...one of worst evaluators of basketball talent ever...Lol.

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6196843

so tell me again how my statement is "unreasonable" or are you the "unreasonable" one. :roll: I guess you think your basketball opinion is better than both of theirs?

[Segatti]

To be fair the Boston and the Pacers took the Heat to game 7 in 2012 and 2013, so it's possible that the Bulls would have given the Heat some trouble too.

[AintNoSunshine]

No he's Lebron perenial bish

[beastee]

Yes. One. People like to crap on him, but Bulls with him at 100% for 5 peak seasons would have beaten the Heat once. But injuries are like that.

[BasedTom]

No and you're either delusional or a casual fan if you believe it.

[DMAVS41]

No way....at his best, he wasn't capable of efficient enough play in the playoffs to beat some of the loaded Heat teams or the current Cavs team.

There simply is no way Rose is leading a team to the finals as a sub 50% TS player.

Now, if he plays a lot better than he normally does in the playoffs...anything is possible.

But given how inefficient he is when the games matter most in the playoffs...I don't see any evidence that he's going to be good enough to get it done.

And those Bulls teams simply weren't stacked enough for him to play his standard way and win.

His best chance was 11...and he had a 43.6% TS series and was beyond bad in crunch time. That simply isn't close to good enough to get out of the shitty east....let alone beat a West team in the finals.

[Hey Yo]

If Rose doesn't get hurt, then more than likely Jimmy Butler's offensive game is still in the making.

Rose ball would have hindered Butler's evolving offense.

[HenryGarfunkle]

Not a chance. No way. Not even a possibility.

He wouldn't have even ever made it out of his own conference, let alone won a ring. :lol

You think he's gettin' past LeBron? Or the Spurs/Warriors?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Im Still Ballin]

Not a chance. No way. Not even a possibility.

He wouldn't have even ever made it out of his own conference, let alone won a ring. :lol

You think he's gettin' past LeBron? Or the Spurs/Warriors?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4y7RUQDBvw

[HenryGarfunkle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4y7RUQDBvw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKc6NAK3G0M

[Im Still Ballin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKc6NAK3G0M
:roll:

[ballinhun8]

If you have Rose who never got hurt and has played and lost to LeBron from 11-14, then last year after the Gasol addition and the rise of Jimmy then I think they finally get to the Finals but against GS I don't know if they beat them.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

No.

[ShawkFactory]

No way....at his best, he wasn't capable of efficient enough play in the playoffs to beat some of the loaded Heat teams or the current Cavs team.

There simply is no way Rose is leading a team to the finals as a sub 50% TS player.

Now, if he plays a lot better than he normally does in the playoffs...anything is possible.

But given how inefficient he is when the games matter most in the playoffs...I don't see any evidence that he's going to be good enough to get it done.

And those Bulls teams simply weren't stacked enough for him to play his standard way and win.

His best chance was 11...and he had a 43.6% TS series and was beyond bad in crunch time. That simply isn't close to good enough to get out of the shitty east....let alone beat a West team in the finals.
Yep.

He was a really good player, but after the 2011 playoffs I never took him seriously as a potential champion.

[BIG FURB]

Yep.

He was a really good player, but after the 2011 playoffs I never took him seriously as a potential champion.

He was more than good, the guy was a great player, but that doesn't matter when you're facing a Heat team that has two great players and one really good one. Too much of a talent disparity. I do think a never injured Rose could've taken out last years Cavs, but still would've lost to the Warriors

[tpols]

Yep.

He was a really good player, but after the 2011 playoffs I never took him seriously as a potential champion.

because he couldnt beat the big 3 heat with a rag tag group of hustlers ??

You guys realize rose that year was basically like Lebron last year against the warriors right ? they both had bully ball with one star facing a juggernaut, except rose isnt even lebron so idk why the expectations are so high ..

[BasedTom]

because he couldnt beat the big 3 heat with a rag tag group of hustlers ??

You guys realize rose that year was basically like Lebron last year against the warriors right ? they both had bully ball with one star facing a juggernaut, except rose isnt even lebron so idk why the expectations are so high ..
lmao nice revisionist history

the bulls roster was loaded with depth. They didn't call their bench a "bench mob" for nothing

[ShawkFactory]

because he couldnt beat the big 3 heat with a rag tag group of hustlers ??

You guys realize rose that year was basically like Lebron last year against the warriors right ? they both had bully ball with one star facing a juggernaut, except rose isnt even lebron so idk why the expectations are so high ..
Lol no it wasn't the same as lebron in the finals. Boozer, Deng, and arguably Noah were all better than anyone lebron had last year. That was a good team.

And the fact that Lebron ate his lunch. He played very poorly.

[nathanjizzle]

rose was playing on a bum ankle the entire playoffs

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6196843

[72-10]

Ham 'n' Eggs

[tpols]

lmao nice revisionist history

the bulls roster was loaded with depth. They didn't call their bench a "bench mob" for nothing

they had no offense outside of Rose..


and shawk, Lebron got just as much defensive and rebounding help out of tristan, mozgov, iman, and delly as rose did out of noah, boozer, bogans, and deng.. they were very similarly built teams, and yea Lebron shot like shit in the 40 % TS range for the same reason rose did.

[BasedTom]

they had no offense outside of Rose..


and shawk, Lebron got just as much defensive and rebounding help out of tristan, mozgov, iman, and delly as rose did out of noah, boozer, bogans, and deng.. they were very similarly built teams, and yea Lebron shot like shit in the 40 % TS range for the same reason rose did.
more like DCrows kept trying and failing to score by himself when it was clear from early on that he wouldn't be able to do shit. Lebron owned his soul in that series.

korver can't shoot? deng can't score? cj watson wasn't a solid contributor?

[tpols]

more like DCrows kept trying and failing to score by himself when it was clear from early on that he wouldn't be able to do shit. Lebron owned his soul in that series.

korver can't shoot? deng can't score? cj watson wasn't a solid contributor?

that compared to what Lebron had ?? you list shooter role players and a backup PG compared to prime Wade and Bosh ? Yea thats shit offensive help by comparison and the Heat had one of the best defenses in the league on top of that (and that was true of them even before Lebron joined). So yea, Lebron "owned Rose's soul" ... when he basically had double the help lmao

[ShawkFactory]

they had no offense outside of Rose..


and shawk, Lebron got just as much defensive and rebounding help out of tristan, mozgov, iman, and delly as rose did out of noah, boozer, bogans, and deng.. they were very similarly built teams, and yea Lebron shot like shit in the 40 % TS range for the same reason rose did.
It wasn't drastically different, but Deng was a reliable second option offensively at least. Not a great one, but better than JR Smith as your #2.

[BasedTom]

that compared to what Lebron had ?? Prime Wade and Bosh ? Yea thats shit offensive help by comparison and the Heat had one of the best defenses in the league on top of that (and that was true of them even before Lebron joined). So yea, Lebron "owned his Rose's soul" ... when he basically had double the help lmao
Are you comparing the Bulls vs Lebron's Heat, or are you comparing the Bulls and last years Cavs?

DCrows had more help than you're implying. He was always vastly overrated as an individual piece. Even if he's fully healthy there is zero way the Bulls are a dynasty or can beat any of the finals teams of the last 8 years unless you outright replace him with a better player straight up. Thibs more or less got the most out of the rosters he had. They weren't going to be much better even if the """""MVP""""" never went down.

[Optimus Prime]

Finals appearance? Maybe. Finals win? No way. LeBeta and his Superfriends were one Ray Allen miracle 3 away from being 1/4.

:kobe:

[tpols]

Are you comparing the Bulls vs Lebron's Heat, or are you comparing the Bulls and last years Cavs?

DCrows had more help than you're implying. He was always vastly overrated as an individual piece. Even if he's fully healthy there is zero way the Bulls are a dynasty or can beat any of the finals teams of the last 8 years unless you outright replace him with a better player straight up. Thibs more or less got the most out of the rosters he had, they weren't going to be much better even if the """""MVP""""" never went down.

im saying .. its hypocritical for bron stans to crucify Derrick Rose for his 2011 performance, and then excuse Bron for his last year when they were both leading bully ball teams with no other creators, and both got burnt out / shot like shit trying to shoulder the load.

[BasedTom]

im saying .. its hypocritical for bron stans to crucify Derrick Rose for his 2011 performance, and then excuse Bron for his last year when they were both leading bully ball teams with no other creators, and both got burnt out / shot like shit trying to shoulder the load.
but this is wrong

if a player goes turboretard ballstopper mode out of his own volition it's not the same thing as having no other competent nba players on the team and being forced into it

[tpols]

but this is wrong

if a player goes turboretard ballstopper mode out of his own volition it's not the same thing as having no other competent nba players on the team and being forced into it

its not wrong .. you think rose was pulling an 04 Kobe or something taking shots out of greed or stupidity, you're clueless and dont understand chicagos gameplan

[BasedTom]

its not wrong .. you think rose was pulling an 04 Kobe or something taking shots out of greed or stupidity, you're clueless and dont understand chicagos gameplan
he was awful, that much is without dispute. The 2010-2011 Bulls were most definitely NOT a one man show, so if you think Thibs busted that out for the ECF then I imagine that you must think low of him as a coach.

I suppose it's more noble than what Bran went on to do in the next series (I know kobr stan kiddies absolutely cannot concede anything unless it makes lebron look worse)

[SpecialQue]

If Lebron threw his back out while giving Rose his annual pounding, maybe.

[pastis]

carmelo, rose, butler would have been nice antagonists for wade/bosh/lebron

[tpols]

he was awful, that much is without dispute. The 2010-2011 Bulls were most definitely NOT a one man show, so if you think Thibs busted that out for the ECF then I imagine that you must think low of him as a coach.

I suppose it's more noble than what Bran went on to do in the next series (I know kobr stan kiddies absolutely cannot concede anything unless it makes lebron look worse)

yea Thibs sure showcased his ability to develop an elite offense when he was coaching 23rd and 28th ranked offenses w/o Rose in the following years . :roll:

[BasedTom]

yea Thibs sure showcased his ability to develop an elite offense when he was coaching 23rd and 28th ranked offenses w/o Rose in the following years . :roll:
~20mil of the cap wasted every year while your team's first option eats skittles in a suit
+a naturally defensive minded coach

would be setting the stage for an exceptionally low offense in most situations wouldn't you agree?

[Pointguard]

No way....at his best, he wasn't capable of efficient enough play in the playoffs to beat some of the loaded Heat teams or the current Cavs team.

There simply is no way Rose is leading a team to the finals as a sub 50% TS player.

Now, if he plays a lot better than he normally does in the playoffs...anything is possible.

But given how inefficient he is when the games matter most in the playoffs...I don't see any evidence that he's going to be good enough to get it done.

And those Bulls teams simply weren't stacked enough for him to play his standard way and win.

His best chance was 11...and he had a 43.6% TS series and was beyond bad in crunch time. That simply isn't close to good enough to get out of the shitty east....let alone beat a West team in the finals.
You have to love the Rose standard: At 22 years old he is supposed to be the finished product and the curve is absolutely appropriate to the conversation. Being young means you are still growing into your game, @ least that's how nature works in the real world. His first three years were as accomplished as any player since the 80's. Rookie of the Year, breaks rookie playoff scoring record while leading his team to five overtime games against the world champions. He shot 49% from the floor that season because he had shooters and a coach that spreads the floor. Second year improves his range and adds a floater. Is among one of the most exciting players in the league averages 27ppg in the playoffs.

Third year is the youngest MVP ever with a good nine or ten greats, definite HOFers, his age or in their primes (at least a year or two from a very good year). Takes a young, new team, new coaches, and very injured team to the best record in the league. Dominated the seven other elite teams in the league despite their being several vet teams, super talented teams, three fully intact championship teams. He did it without shooters, finishers, super athletes, creators or very skilled players. All of which a PG needs to thrive with much less dominate the elite.

All of this in three years time and not 23 years of age yet. Who are we comparing him to? Only some of the top ten goats, right.

Kobe, Pop and Phil Jackson all talked about his work ethic and leadership at that young age...

[DMAVS41]

You have to love the Rose standard: At 22 years old he is supposed to be the finished product and the curve is absolutely appropriate to the conversation. Being young means you are still growing into your game, @ least that's how nature works in the real world. His first three years were as accomplished as any player since the 80's. Rookie of the Year, breaks rookie playoff scoring record while leading his team to five overtime games against the world champions. He shot 49% from the floor that season because he had shooters and a coach that spreads the floor. Second year improves his range and adds a floater. Is among one of the most exciting players in the league averages 27ppg in the playoffs.

Third year is the youngest MVP ever with a good nine or ten greats, definite HOFers, his age or in their primes (at least a year or two from a very good year). Takes a young, new team, new coaches, and very injured team to the best record in the league. Dominated the seven other elite teams in the league despite their being several vet teams, super talented teams, three fully intact championship teams. He did it without shooters, finishers, super athletes, creators or very skilled players. All of which a PG needs to thrive with much less dominate the elite.

All of this in three years time and not 23 years of age yet. Who are we comparing him to? Only some of the top ten goats, right.

Kobe, Pop and Phil Jackson all talked about his work ethic and leadership at that young age...

I never said he was supposed to be a finished product, but he's shown very little throughout his career at being efficient enough to be the leader of a title winning team in the playoffs.

He is a career sub 50% TS in the playoffs. That simply isn't going to get it done unless you are on an all time loaded team...and even then...he couldn't be the number 1 option/leader and do that.

Like I said in my post...he plays much better than that...absolutely it could happen. I just don't see evidence that he was capable of scoring at that volume and do it efficiently enough when it really matters most against the best teams.

I'm not saying it would have been impossible or that something special can't happen in the future, but in a hypothetical like this...there just isn't much evidence that Rose is getting out of the East...let alone beating great teams with better players like the Mavericks, Spurs, Thunder, and Warriors...

[DMAVS41]

because he couldnt beat the big 3 heat with a rag tag group of hustlers ??

You guys realize rose that year was basically like Lebron last year against the warriors right ? they both had bully ball with one star facing a juggernaut, except rose isnt even lebron so idk why the expectations are so high ..

It was tough, but if Rose had played relatively well...winning that series was right there.

He played horribly and every game was still very close.

I agree he had a large burden, but playing that badly is still something to note.

So assuming he's going to do better with worse teams around him...and beat teams as good or better than the 11 Heat just doesn't seem realistic to me.

This is where I think a lot of other fans just get annoyed with Rose fans or people talking about Rose.

There is no circumstances, ever, in which a player held to the "arguable best player in the league" standard like Rose fans claimed in 11...should get that series excused. He was beyond bad late in close games, repeatedly choked with the game on the line, and overall just had a terrible series. He wasn't out there all alone either. He had a team that worked their asses off on defense and the glass....and Boozer/Deng are hardly inept offensive players.

Too many other players have gotten far more hate for much better performances.

[nba_55]

because he couldnt beat the big 3 heat with a rag tag group of hustlers ??

You guys realize rose that year was basically like Lebron last year against the warriors right ? they both had bully ball with one star facing a juggernaut, except rose isnt even lebron so idk why the expectations are so high ..

LOL. This isn't some 1980's game, we remember clearly that season and playoffs. You cant lie about it. Bulls were fully capable of beating Miami, they beat them 3 times in regular season. If Rose didn't shit in his pants when they put Lebron on him during the 4th quarters, Bulls would have a good chance. Many of the game were close.

[nba_55]

im saying .. its hypocritical for bron stans to crucify Derrick Rose for his 2011 performance, and then excuse Bron for his last year when they were both leading bully ball teams with no other creators, and both got burnt out / shot like shit trying to shoulder the load.

Are you implying that Rose vs Heat played as well as Lebron did last finals? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: Rose played like shit, Lebron got 4 FMVP votes despite being on the losing the game.

[Odinn]

No. The Heat were the better team and they were a mismatchup for the Bulls. In 2011, it was over after just 5 games. The Bulls were nowhere near of being a threat.
And 2015 playoffs proved that D. Rose is not (even he stayed healthy, instead of being injured) leading his team to victory against LeBron.

So, no. Just no.

[SouBeachTalents]

I would have liked to see a Heat vs. Bulls ECF in 2012, the Bulls would have had HCA and Bosh would have missed the first 4-5 games due to injury. I still think the Heat win, but that had potential to be a good series.

After 2012 there's not a chance in the world the Bulls win a title. Even if they manage to beat the Heat, which I don't think they would, they would have never beaten the Spurs or Warriors

[4 Inches]

Yeah I remember
Rip Hamilton was meant to be his second option :oldlol:
Nathan needs to get the jizz out of his eyes

[72-10]

Yeah the Bulls vs. Heat was kind of a rivalry that did not unfold. It had the potential to be entertaining.

[RRR3]

If Lebron threw his back out while giving Rose his annual pounding, maybe.
Holy shit :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Pointguard]

I never said he was supposed to be a finished product, but he's shown very little throughout his career at being efficient enough to be the leader of a title winning team in the playoffs.

He's 22. And that context is fully implied by the topic/OP.


He is a career sub 50% TS in the playoffs. That simply isn't going to get it done unless you are on an all time loaded team...and even then...he couldn't be the number 1 option/leader and do that.

At his age I would compare him to guys with 690TS% in the playoffs and Rose would have the advantage everytime, more than likely. You are comparing TS% to MVP and leading a team to the best record as the best player as a better indicator of future success? Really?

TS% on average goes up a whole lot after 22 years of age on almost all good players.



Like I said in my post...he plays much better than that...absolutely it could happen. I just don't see evidence that he was capable of scoring at that volume and do it efficiently enough when it really matters most against the best teams.
Magic is the only top ten GOAT that had killer TS%.

Rose in his first year was very efficient for a rookie PG. He lost his shooters, his creators, his floor spacers, his finishers, his offensive minded coach, his team sets, his. This affects every non post player greatly, much less players under 23 years of age. See what it did to Kobe, Lebron, Wade and CP3.


I'm not saying it would have been impossible or that something special can't happen in the future, but in a hypothetical like this...there just isn't much evidence that Rose is getting out of the East...let alone beating great teams with better players like the Mavericks, Spurs, Thunder, and Warriors...
He totally dominated them at an age you never see greats do that. Much less no great is going to beat other great teams with a team that had real bad trouble with a trap. There is no quarantee that he stays on the Bulls or that they don't get a great compliment to him.

Last year, without injuries to Noah/Gasol/Rose and Butler, they could have won it all and that's not a stretch at all. Mure than likely they could have won it all with Rose improving at the same rate he was doing it at then, or the rate of Westbrook's improvements.

[Pointguard]

It was tough, but if Rose had played relatively well...winning that series was right there.
Once again, this is the Rose standard. Double, triple teaming with a team that wasn't breaking traps. The Heat, knew Thibe's wasn't spending a lot of time on offensive sets. There are no other GREATS winning with a new young team much less one's that can't break traps on top of it. There could be one but common sense will tell you no, its not happening.

Name me the team that's won without shooters and finishers.



He played horribly and every game was still very close.
But he was still by far the best player on the team. Name me the other player that was stepping up? His second and third best players were being benched in the fourth quarters. So they threw the kitchen sink at the best player. Why not. The team had a one man offense with the second and third best players stepping down.


I agree he had a large burden, but playing that badly is still something to note.
Name me the other 22 year old players that thrived under double teams and traps on a offensively challenged team.


This is where I think a lot of other fans just get annoyed with Rose fans or people talking about Rose.
Name me the posters that hates Rose that isn't terribly illogical with his hate, or just obsessed with hating him?


There is no circumstances, ever, in which a player held to the "arguable best player in the league" standard like Rose fans claimed in 11...should get that series excused. He was beyond bad late in close games, repeatedly choked with the game on the line, and overall just had a terrible series. He wasn't out there all alone either. He had a team that worked their asses off on defense and the glass....and Boozer/Deng are hardly inept offensive players.

Boozer was being benched at the end of games, and this is the irrational part I talk about. Miami went at Rose because they knew there was nothing happening otherwise. Deng is steady but he's never, in his career, been the guy who is second best guy that can step it up. Its just not him.


Too many other players have gotten far more hate for much better performances.

I can't name one at 22 years old that comes close. Rose and Lebron recently were the only 22 year olds running their teams and their numbers were almost identical across the board when the teams threw the kitchen sink at them. You, for example, didn't even know Lebron went thru the same thing in a year you were really tuned into the game. That's when I say its irrational. You guys are hopeless. And rightfully so, people don't go after Lebron for that. But when it comes to Rose it brought up a whole lot.

[Pointguard]

~20mil of the cap wasted every year while your team's first option eats skittles in a suit
+a naturally defensive minded coach

would be setting the stage for an exceptionally low offense in most situations wouldn't you agree?
Injuries are part of life. Its silly to cry about that. Last year was the first time Thibes made a priority of offense but couldn't change it once Gasol got hurt. Do you watch the games?

[GrapeApe]

Why would he have a title? I'm not sure the Bulls were serious title contenders even when he was healthy. As a Heat fan I was always more worried about the Celtics. When the Pacers emerged I felt like they were also a much tougher match up than the Bulls (with pre-injury Rose). Even if the Bulls had some how got to the finals last year it's highly unlikely they beat the Warriors.

[JohnFreeman]

Hell no, dude got cucked by the Heat

[dubnation]

No way. Bull's defense carried them in 2011, despite what the media in 2011 thought or what Pointguard continues to think. There's no reason to believe they would have beaten the Bulls or Cavs since then.

[Pointguard]

Why would he have a title? I'm not sure the Bulls were serious title contenders even when he was healthy. As a Heat fan I was always more worried about the Celtics. When the Pacers emerged I felt like they were also a much tougher match up than the Bulls (with pre-injury Rose). Even if the Bulls had some how got to the finals last year it's highly unlikely they beat the Warriors.
This makes absolutely no sense. Rose was destroying Indiana himself. That was one of those single handed epic destructions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxxPc3K1nI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVcDC1xrn3U

I could understand you being worried about George stopping Lebron but even matchup wise it doesn't make much sense.

[Dresta]

His first three years were as accomplished as any player since the 80's.
Errrr.... no.

Wade's first 3 years >>>> His

Same with Shaq, and Duncan, and probably others I can't think of right now.

Your Rose homerism is just :facepalm .

[Pointguard]

Errrr.... no.

Wade's first 3 years >>>> His

Same with Shaq, and Duncan, and probably others I can't think of right now.

Your Rose homerism is just :facepalm .
Usually you come off as smart. Now you don't have a clue as to what "accomplished" means. Want me to explain it to you?

[Jameerthefear]

Usually you come off as smart. Now you don't have a clue as to what "accomplished" means. Want me to explain it to you?
Are you trolling?

[Pointguard]

Are you trolling?
First goal you want to accomplish in the league is ROY.
Another goal is have your team win as much as anybody else.
Another goal might be is MVP.
FMVP.

Who accomplished more of these goals before they were 23? Who has done it in their first three years since this since the 90's? Sure there are about three with different accomplishments but none at Rose or Lebron's age. Duncan did something equal by his third year I think, more than less as a co-captain.

What is so hard about understanding this?

[Jameerthefear]

First goal you want to accomplish in the league is ROY.
Another goal is have your team win as much as anybody else.
Another goal might be is MVP.
FMVP.

Who accomplished more of these goals before they were 23? Who has done it in their first three years since this since the 90's? Sure there are about three with different accomplishments but none at Rose or Lebron's age. Duncan did something equal by his third year I think, more than less as a co-captain.

What is so hard about understanding this?
winning FMVP and a ring >>>>>>>> what rose did

[Pointguard]

winning FMVP and a ring >>>>>>>> what rose did
I never said anything about greater than. I said ACCOMPLISHED.
Duncan was a little older and he wasn't really the leader of his team but I understand the argument. Also, Duncan joined a team that had won 59 and 62 games a year before he joined the team, in fact it took like 8 years before his win total to get up that high. Its not like the turnaround was on Duncan nor was he the captain of the team. So that's all part of an argument. But I considered Duncan part of the first three year argument, anyway. Duncan was older than 22 years old as well.

[greatest-ever]

No i don't think he'd have a ring but i do think he'd be roughly on the level Westbrook is right now, maybe slightly worse.

[tmacattack33]

Lebron owned him in the playoffs in 2011.

Don't see why you would think they would beat the Heat, let alone beat the Spurs or Thunder in the Finals.

[JohnFreeman]

https://giant.gfycat.com/ThoroughSickGalapagoshawk.gif

[thefatmiral]

So basically your asking if you replace the LeBron teams with the bulls in the finals. Do they win. They could have beat the thunder and matched up well against the spurs. No chance against the Warriors.

[Dresta]

First goal you want to accomplish in the league is ROY.
Another goal is have your team win as much as anybody else.
Another goal might be is MVP.
FMVP.

Who accomplished more of these goals before they were 23? Who has done it in their first three years since this since the 90's? Sure there are about three with different accomplishments but none at Rose or Lebron's age. Duncan did something equal by his third year I think, more than less as a co-captain.

What is so hard about understanding this?
Accomplishments and media awards aren't the same thing. A media award is an accomplishment, but it isn't the only thing that makes someone accomplished.

Now you are adding an age requirement. You didn't do that before.

Shaq, Wade, Duncan all accomplished more in their first three seasons than Rose did, although they may not have won as many media awards. That's no knock on Rose, as those guys were 3 of the most accomplished players we've seen so early in their NBA careers, but what you were saying simply wasn't accurate.

Leading your team to a title is the ultimate accomplishment in the NBA, and Duncan and Wade did that in their first three seasons (while putting up insane numbers). I don't get what you're trying to argue here.

[SyRyanYang]

Lebron is a borderline top 10 all time talent. It takes another top 10 talent (e.g. Duncan, Curry) to take him down. Rose and Butler simply won't cut it.

[Gileraracer]

Easy cause East = weak as fvck

[DMAVS41]

PG...

You keep adding in age like players get extra points for being young during games. They don't. How good Rose was at a young age was impressive, but you go overboard on how impressive and seem incapable of realizing the flaws in his game/skills that are still there now years later.

If Rose hasn't fixed his shot by now...why would you think it's magically getting better before? You think Rose is just becoming a smarter person/player? If anything, he's gotten dumber on both fronts.

Even on a normal progression...which I actually don't think Rose would have followed given his broken mechanics on his shot and lack ability to play a certain amount of team ball...

The Bulls since 11 are simply not beating the Mavericks/Heat, Thunder/Heat, Spurs/Heat, Spurs/Heat, Cavs/Warriors.

I'm sorry, it's not happening with Rose as the best player on those teams...even if he plays better than he did in 11...it's still not happening.

And almost nothing supports him being able to consistently score efficiently and get the most out of his teammates...which would be requirements for winning.

Could it have happened? Sure, it's not impossible...pretty much nothing is, but in terms of realistic expectations...Rose is not leading the Bulls to a title since 11.

[aj1987]

Accomplishments and media awards aren't the same thing. A media award is an accomplishment, but it isn't the only thing that makes someone accomplished.

Now you are adding an age requirement. You didn't do that before.

Shaq, Wade, Duncan all accomplished more in their first three seasons than Rose did, although they may not have won as many media awards. That's no knock on Rose, as those guys were 3 of the most accomplished players we've seen so early in their NBA careers, but what you were saying simply wasn't accurate.

Leading your team to a title is the ultimate accomplishment in the NBA, and Duncan and Wade did that in their first three seasons (while putting up insane numbers). I don't get what you're trying to argue here.

To add to the list, Magic, Bird, KAJ, and Russell.

Is Wade the one to do it with the least amount of help?

[KnittingRyu]

He would have a Finals appearance or 2.

[keep-itreal]

PG...

You keep adding in age like players get extra points for being young during games. They don't. How good Rose was at a young age was impressive, but you go overboard on how impressive and seem incapable of realizing the flaws in his game/skills that are still there now years later.

If Rose hasn't fixed his shot by now...why would you think it's magically getting better before? You think Rose is just becoming a smarter person/player? If anything, he's gotten dumber on both fronts.

Even on a normal progression...which I actually don't think Rose would have followed given his broken mechanics on his shot and lack ability to play a certain amount of team ball...

The Bulls since 11 are simply not beating the Mavericks/Heat, Thunder/Heat, Spurs/Heat, Spurs/Heat, Cavs/Warriors.

I'm sorry, it's not happening with Rose as the best player on those teams...even if he plays better than he did in 11...it's still not happening.

And almost nothing supports him being able to consistently score efficiently and get the most out of his teammates...which would be requirements for winning.

Could it have happened? Sure, it's not impossible...pretty much nothing is, but in terms of realistic expectations...Rose is not leading the Bulls to a title since 11.

I don't think this is a fair thing to say because he tore his ACL twice. He only had one season to prove his ability to carry his team to a title as a healthy 100% Rose.

The Rose we see now is not even close to what he was in his MVP days.

[gasolina]

Just my 2 cents here...

Thib's handlling of the 2011 Bulls (and after) was one of the most frustrating things to watch in recent years. Sure he had a hell of a player in Rose, but you just don't win a series against a team who by happenstance beat them on their same game.

Think about it, the bulls won in the regualr season because of their D. Rose generated most of the offense but not many plays were run for his teammates.

- Boozer had a great pick and pop game with Deron, but was never found it in Chicago. Maybe because they refused to run P&R with him and just let Rose iso from the top.

- Deng was still good, but Thibs relied on him more on his D rather than as a complement to Rose's offense. Also he's not catch and shoot player you park the 3pt line, again not a good fit with Iso Rose.

- Korver. Man I can't remember how many times I was screaming at the TV because Korver couldn't make an open shot. Korver is better suited having plays run for him (as per last year in ATL) and running through screens. Even while in Utah, he's just not as efficient standstill waiting on the wings. Of course, Thib's archaic offense couldn't be bothered with it.

- Noah and Brewer has no offensive game, sure they play D, but you get absolutely nothing on the other side.

Now back to my original point. As good as Chicago's D was, the Heat was just stacked with star power that it didn't matter. Better offense always beats good defense, especailly these days.

"Well wait a second, how about Miami's D? Shouldn't Chicago be scoring 110 points every night? Chicago won freakin 60 games! "

While the Heat's D may not be as elite as Chicago's, they didn't need to be because they were playing 2 vs. 5 on offense all the time. Bosh just ate Boozers soul. I haven't seen that much ownage on a series in a long time. Noah and Brewer were nonfactors. Deng was guarded by Lebron. The only one who could get going was Rose (who had a decent defender in Chalmers on him) and then got Lebron in the 4th quarter. Kaput.

EDIT: Imagine if Miami actually had to play defense that series. If Wade was chasing Korver around all those screens. If Bosh actually had to move his feet on D. If Lebron had to play defense for 4 quarters instead of 5 minutes.

Thibs made zero adjustments that series. And made zero adjustments up until he got fired.

[Pointguard]

Accomplishments and media awards aren't the same thing. A media award is an accomplishment, but it isn't the only thing that makes someone accomplished.
You set goals for things you want to accomplish. There are goals that are structured in basketball. Rose said he was going to be the youngest MVP ever. We know he accomplished that. Thats the highest personal goal in the sport and he did it as the only one to do it by 23 years of age.


Now you are adding an age requirement. You didn't do that before.
I said it five times. You quoted only one line. The whole previous page is loaded with me saying it.


Shaq, Wade, Duncan all accomplished more in their first three seasons than Rose did, although they may not have won as many media awards. That's no knock on Rose, as those guys were 3 of the most accomplished players we've seen so early in their NBA careers, but what you were saying simply wasn't accurate.
So you saying individuals should get the teams accomplishments is more accurate? William F Buckley was very accomplished with several prestigious degrees and was considered a very skilled debater one of the best in the land. Malcolm X had an 8th grade education.The debate didn't happen because Buckley and his camp knew Malcolm was the better debater, so be it, not as decorated. Buckley was very accomplished he set his goals and achieved them in a very standard way.


Leading your team to a title is the ultimate accomplishment in the NBA, and Duncan and Wade did that in their first three seasons (while putting up insane numbers). I don't get what you're trying to argue here.
Ball players have standard goals. ROY MVP, get in the record books if they can, turn their team fortunes around as the best player if they can, and win it all. Rose had three of the four.

If you were following the thread, or looked at the title, all of this is based on Rose's future healthy projection. Thats why I mentioned Rose's age as good half of dozen times before you responded. If you are going to join other peoples conversation and make stupid faces like you did, its on you to understand the context ratther than taking one line out and trying to change the conversation.

[DMAVS41]

I don't think this is a fair thing to say because he tore his ACL twice. He only had one season to prove his ability to carry his team to a title as a healthy 100% Rose.

The Rose we see now is not even close to what he was in his MVP days.

Rose at his best, which was 11, was not capable of scoring efficiently enough to lead those Bulls teams to titles.

I don't think there was ever a good chance he fixes his broken shot and in game decision making to a point where he can lead the 4th best team to the title over the likes of the Mavs, Thunder, Heat, Spurs, and Warriors.

You guys have to understand how vital scoring efficiency is for shoot first pg's that aren't elite defenders or passers...and have almost no impact off the ball.

If you have a guy taking 20 shots a game and he's shooting 50% TS...you aren't winning the title if he's your best player at guard.

[miggyme1]

depends on if he got the help he needed...look at the bulls team now.....put a pre injury rose on the current bulls team and he still doesn't win a ring. So many things go into winning a ring that we never see because its behind the scenes.

You gotta have the right personnel which i think the bulls had with coach tibbs. If bulls don't make the playoffs this year coach hoi is fired...sad to waste all that money on a one year coach who was suppose to have the same effect on the bulls that steve kerr had on the warriors. smh

grass isn't always greener on the other side.

[Pointguard]

PG...

You keep adding in age like players get extra points for being young during games. They don't. How good Rose was at a young age was impressive, but you go overboard on how impressive and seem incapable of realizing the flaws in his game/skills that are still there now years later.
Are you serious? You actually watch him and can't tell he"s rebuilding his game??? You can't tell that his dribble escapes him??? That he can't do his favorite shot??? That he's lost something in nearly every advantage he had??? Most people can't even reconstruct their games. Its like you have no clue as to what happened. He has to do everything different to get an advantage.

This question is absolutely relevant to his age. You also are acting clueless as to natural development for players with great work ethic.



If Rose hasn't fixed his shot by now...why would you think it's magically getting better before? You think Rose is just becoming a smarter person/player? If anything, he's gotten dumber on both fronts.
Wow, now you don't know that your lift comes from? Have you ever played ball in your life? You haven't noticed that he can get great lift on some days and not so the next? Another poster mentioned how crafty Rose has been in his adaption. He at 22ppg with solid efficiency this month while playing the game differently. Last year he was running the triangle offense and a lot of players can't do that. You calling him dumber is due to your lack of insight.


Even on a normal progression...which I actually don't think Rose would have followed given his broken mechanics on his shot and lack ability to play a certain amount of team ball...

He mastered the floater in only three years. Only a sweeping sky hook has harder mechanics. His range got better every year. His work ethic was among the best in the game. Com"on now you have to know something about the things you are bringing up. He had the best left hand among pgs. All of this is a reflection of work ethic. How often do you hear greats talk about a third year players work ethic.


The Bulls since 11 are simply not beating the Mavericks/Heat, Thunder/Heat, Spurs/Heat, Spurs/Heat, Cavs/Warriors.

I'm sorry, it's not happening with Rose as the best player on those teams...even if he plays better than he did in 11...it's still not happening.

And almost nothing supports him being able to consistently score efficiently and get the most out of his teammates...which would be requirements for winning.

Could it have happened? Sure, it's not impossible...pretty much nothing is, but in terms of realistic expectations...Rose is not leading the Bulls to a title since 11.
Why are you bothering to project things when you can't tell a player is compromised right in front of your face? You dont even know how work ethic benefits a player.On top of your many critical oversights here you have no clue as to th role of coaching, spacing, having shooters, finishers, athletes, veterans, creators greatly benefit a team. Rose didn't have that at an average level. Of course expecting you to understand that it affects efficiency like crazy is never going to happen.

[AirBonner]

0 rings and 0 final appearances

[Pointguard]

Just my 2 cents here...

Thib's handlling of the 2011 Bulls (and after) was one of the most frustrating things to watch in recent years. Sure he had a hell of a player in Rose, but you just don't win a series against a team who by happenstance beat them on their same game.

Think about it, the bulls won in the regualr season because of their D. Rose generated most of the offense but not many plays were run for his teammates.

- Boozer had a great pick and pop game with Deron, but was never found it in Chicago. Maybe because they refused to run P&R with him and just let Rose iso from the top.

- Deng was still good, but Thibs relied on him more on his D rather than as a complement to Rose's offense. Also he's not catch and shoot player you park the 3pt line, again not a good fit with Iso Rose.

- Korver. Man I can't remember how many times I was screaming at the TV because Korver couldn't make an open shot. Korver is better suited having plays run for him (as per last year in ATL) and running through screens. Even while in Utah, he's just not as efficient standstill waiting on the wings. Of course, Thib's archaic offense couldn't be bothered with it.

- Noah and Brewer has no offensive game, sure they play D, but you get absolutely nothing on the other side.

Now back to my original point. As good as Chicago's D was, the Heat was just stacked with star power that it didn't matter. Better offense always beats good defense, especailly these days.

"Well wait a second, how about Miami's D? Shouldn't Chicago be scoring 110 points every night? Chicago won freakin 60 games! "

While the Heat's D may not be as elite as Chicago's, they didn't need to be because they were playing 2 vs. 5 on offense all the time. Bosh just ate Boozers soul. I haven't seen that much ownage on a series in a long time. Noah and Brewer were nonfactors. Deng was guarded by Lebron. The only one who could get going was Rose (who had a decent defender in Chalmers on him) and then got Lebron in the 4th quarter. Kaput.

EDIT: Imagine if Miami actually had to play defense that series. If Wade was chasing Korver around all those screens. If Bosh actually had to move his feet on D. If Lebron had to play defense for 4 quarters instead of 5 minutes.

Thibs made zero adjustments that series. And made zero adjustments up until he got fired.
:applause: :cheers: :applause:
Great Post.

Thibes was learning on the job and flat out wasn't good offensively: his team which had 1 main creator, couldn't handle a trap either. You highlighted those points well.

[gasolina]

:applause: :cheers: :applause:
Great Post.

Thibes was learning on the job and flat out wasn't good offensively: his team which had 1 main creator, couldn't handle a trap either. You highlighted those points well.
Thanks. Took me a while to get it off my chest. I guess ESPN had me convinced Thibs was a great coach and his defensive wizardry more that makes up for his shortcomings. To be fair he did maximize what he had when Rose was hurt.

It was last year's PO's that woke me up. There's something about putting two and two together even if they were 4 years apart.

[red1]

absolutely not. who would they have beaten?

[catch24]

A couple finals appearances, not sure about titles though.

Like a few posters said above, for all the great stuff Thibs spawned defensively, he was EMBARRASSINGLY inept on offense. So much that one could argue the burden Rose carried per scoring and playmaking...caused his injuries.

Having said that, I would like his chances last year with a healthy Gasol and Butler. Rose with THAT team at 100% is scary good.

[HurricaneKid]

The ACL/meniscus issues happen all the time. Westbrook had multiple meniscus surgeries. Rose's inability to come back aren't from physical limitations, but from mental ones. He won't attack the basket any more because he wants to be able to go to meetings when he is older. Westbrook isnt worrying about such things when he attacks the hoop with ferocity.

But the big reason there is no chance of it happening is that the real reason the Bulls were so good wasn't just Rose. It was their amazing depth. Without the "MVP" in the game the Bulls were 6.1pts/100 possessions better than their opponents. Show me another MVP with that level of support. Asik and Korver left after 2011 and the Heat got much stronger, adding Battier, getting Mike Miller and UD back from injury and adding Norris Cole.

So his support got substantially weaker as their biggest rival got better and better. How would they have ever gotten past the Heat? I guess maybe last year they could have reached the Finals but there is no way they could have won it all.

[Chef Curry]

nope :lol

[Chef Curry]

yo how the **** do i get an avatar? :banana:

[Pointguard]

The ACL/meniscus issues happen all the time. Westbrook had multiple meniscus surgeries. Rose's inability to come back aren't from physical limitations, but from mental ones. He won't attack the basket any more because he wants to be able to go to meetings when he is older. Westbrook isnt worrying about such things when he attacks the hoop with ferocity.

But the big reason there is no chance of it happening is that the real reason the Bulls were so good wasn't just Rose. It was their amazing depth. Without the "MVP" in the game the Bulls were 6.1pts/100 possessions better than their opponents. Show me another MVP with that level of support. Asik and Korver left after 2011 and the Heat got much stronger, adding Battier, getting Mike Miller and UD back from injury and adding Norris Cole.

So his support got substantially weaker as their biggest rival got better and better. How would they have ever gotten past the Heat? I guess maybe last year they could have reached the Finals but there is no way they could have won it all.
:lol

[houston]

no

[HurricaneKid]

:lol

Your biggest contribution in ages.

[aquaadverse]

yo how the **** do i get an avatar? :banana:

You don't deserve one.

[Pointguard]

Your biggest contribution in ages.
I just feel sorry for you. Please, don't take it any other way.