Top 5 all-time on both sides of ball: Wilt is the only big.. MJ the only non-big

[3ball]

.
Among big men, only Wilt is top 5 all-time on both sides of ball.. For non-bigs, only MJ


Great two-way play makes all the difference - in the 2015 Finals, Lebron let a 7 ppg role player win FMVP and be > Steph Curry.. That doomed his team's chances more than his 39% efficiency vs. single-coverage.

Otoh, Jordan never let Byron Russell get FMVP and be > Karl Malone.... And he never shot 39% against single-coverage and secluded 1-on-1... Better defense + better offense = 6/6.
.

[HenryGarfunkle]

Both sides?

1. LeBron
2. Duncan
3. Hakeem
4. Garnett
5. Pippen

[Im Still Ballin]

Both sides?

1. LeBron
2. Duncan
3. Hakeem
4. Garnett
5. Pippen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO2cHJmDkBg

[ShawkFactory]

A) I don't really see the significance of this thread (oh, wait...its 3ball. Nvm..)

B) Olajuwon is absolutely top 5 on both ends

[HenryGarfunkle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO2cHJmDkBg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7rcAVy6sh8

USA!

[Im Still Ballin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7rcAVy6sh8

USA!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdyC1BrQd6g

[Fallen Angel]

Hakeem had no weakness on offense at his peak, that includes Free Throws.

[feyki]

A) I don't really see the significance of this thread (oh, wait...its 3ball. Nvm..)

B) Olajuwon is absolutely top 5 on both ends

Hakeem definitely top 5 defender of all time . But I don't think his offence is/was top 5 level ( probably not even top 10 ) .

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

No player in history is top 5 on both sides of the ball including Wilt or MJ

[72-10]

Hakeem had no weakness on offense at his peak, that includes Free Throws.

This. I'm pretty sure Hakeem, MJ and Wilt would be in your top 5. Maybe with Kobe near the bottom of the top 5.

[3ball]

No player in history is top 5 on both sides of the ball including Wilt or MJ
Among non-big men, MJ was top 5 all-time on offense and defense.

Among big men, it's Wilt.

[Dr Hawk]

Among big men, it's Hakeem
Among perimeter guys, it's Jordan

[KobesFinger]

Among non-big men, MJ was top 5 all-time on offense and defense.

Among big men, it's Wilt.

Duncan?

[72-10]

Kevin Garnett is another excellent choice. Pippen was not a sufficiently skilled offensive player to be considered here.

[3ball]

i think you guys misunderstanding the question

[3ball]

Kevin Garnett is another excellent choice. Pippen was not a sufficiently skilled offensive player to be considered here.


Offensively, Garnett is nowhere NEAR top 5 all-time among big men.. again, the question is the following:

among big men, who is top 5 all-time on both sides of the ball??.... Who's top 5 on both sides among NON-bigs?

the answer is Wilt for bigs, and MJ for non-bigs - those are the only 2 guys

[HenryGarfunkle]

i think you guys misunderstanding the question
We did, and Jordan is no where near being a top 5 defender ever. He wasn't even top 2 on his team, Pippen and Rodman had way more defensive impact

He didn't even make my top 5 two-way players list

[KobesFinger]

i think you guys misunderstanding the question

You didn't ask a question, you simply stated that Jordan and Wilt are the only top 5 on both sides of the ball

[3ball]

We did, and Jordan is no where near being a top 5 defender ever. He wasn't even top 2 on his team, Pippen and Rodman had way more defensive impact

He didn't even make my top 5 two-way players list
You misread the OP... The OP separates big men from non big men.

Among non-bigs, Jordan was a top 5 all-time defender, possibly the greatest perimeter defender ever.. Regardless, he's the only guy that ranks top 5 on both sides of the ball among non-bigs.

Among big men, only Wilt is top 5 all-time on both sides of ball.

Btw, you overrate Pippen's defense drastically - at the time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s), it was well-known that Jordan was the team's best defender - this was before new fans started making up their own history.
.

[72-10]

Offensively, Garnett is nowhere NEAR top 5 all-time among big men.. again, the question is the following:

among big men, who is top 5 all-time on both sides of the ball??.... Who's top 5 on both sides among NON-bigs?

the answer is Wilt for bigs, and MJ for non-bigs - those are the only 2 guys

I think there are clearly five better defenders than Wilt and MJ.:rolleyes:

[3ball]

I think there are clearly five better defenders than Wilt and MJ.:rolleyes:
You misread the OP... The OP separates big men from non big men.

Among non-bigs, Jordan was a top 5 all-time defender, possibly the greatest perimeter defender ever.. Regardless, he's the only guy that ranks top 5 on both sides of the ball among non-bigs.

Among big men, only Wilt is top 5 all-time on both sides of ball.

[72-10]

Oh. OK, that's very odd criteria, since it's extremely limiting.

Anyways, I'd add Hakeem Olajuwon.

[AirBonner]

Typical 3ball agenda thread.

[72-10]

Pippen often guarded the other team's best offensive player.

[SugarHill]

3ball is saying Jordan is a top 5 defensive player ever :yaohappy:

[3ball]

Oh. OK, that's very odd criteria, since it's extremely limiting.

Anyways, I'd add Hakeem Olajuwon.


The criteria is ALL non-bigs and ALL bigs.. You can't get more inclusive than that, except to combine non-bigs and bigs.

Among non-bigs, Jordan was a top 5 all-time defender, possibly the greatest perimeter defender ever.. Regardless, he's the only guy that ranks top 5 on both sides of the ball among non-bigs.

Among big men, only Wilt is top 5 all-time on both sides of ball.

[72-10]

3ball is saying Jordan is a top 5 defensive player ever :yaohappy:

Top 5 perimeter defender. I agree with that.

[3ball]

3ball is saying Jordan is a top 5 defensive player ever :yaohappy:


You misread the OP - the OP separates big men from non big men.

Among non-bigs, Jordan was a top 5 all-time defender, possibly the greatest perimeter defender ever.. Regardless, he's the only guy that ranks top 5 on both sides of the ball among non-bigs.

Among big men, only Wilt is top 5 all-time on both sides of ball.

[AirBonner]

Pippen often guarded the other team's best offensive player.
This. Pippen was covering Jordan's crappy defense for YEARS

[72-10]

You misread the OP - the OP separates big men from non big men.

Among non-bigs, Jordan was a top 5 all-time defender, possibly the greatest perimeter defender ever.. Regardless, he's the only guy that ranks top 5 on both sides of the ball among non-bigs.

Among big men, only Wilt is top 5 all-time on both sides of ball.

Now you're really overstepping the bounds. You think he's better than Gary Payton? Someone get this guy a Coke.

[feyki]

Correct .

But defence and offence like two way space ( open-ended ) . Someone put 12 margin above than average on defensive side . And another player , who is known two way player , put 5 on offence and 5 on defence . But totally 12 > 10 . This explain how peak Nash better player than peak Pippen .

Anyway , i agree with the OP . But nothing changes .

[3ball]

This. Pippen was covering Jordan's crappy defense for YEARS



^^^^ Pure, made-up bullshit... Pip couldn't handle quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/NZrhCv.gif



Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY in 99' - Pippen is joke to him:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/DtKoPr.gif..



But just a few months earlier, 35-year old Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/EStPHq.gif



Here's another one - Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2015/5FXjSn.gif



But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/n1LWjI.gif


The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was the frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s) and Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8).. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen..

Btw, Pippen's inferior defense isn't only shown by the eye test - the stats prove it too - virtually every decent wing in the league went off for HUGE games on Pippen - 35, 40, and 50 point games - whereas MJ rarely gave up a big game to anyone.
.

[90sgoat]

He back:bowdown:

[3ball]

Pippen often guarded the other team's best offensive player.


Jordan did it far more often.

Jordan guarded Drexler in 1992 Finals, not Pippen... Jordan chased Reggie Miller around vs. Indiana, not Pippen.... Jordan guarded Gary Payton in 1996 Finals, not Pippen (Jordan was matched up with Payton from tip-off as Payton's primary, all-game defender in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg)).

That's just a few examples - Jordan also guarded Stockton extensively (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0) in 1997 and 1998 Finals... Oh, and he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) in 1991 Finals (70%), compared to 6 of 20 for Pippen (30%).

Be careful not to overrate Pippen's defense - at the time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s), it was well-known that Jordan was the team's best defender - this was before new fans started making up their own history.

[GrapeApe]

David Robinson won a scoring title and DPOY in the same season. Hakeem and prime Kareem were both dominant 2-way players. Lebron, Wade, and Kobe have all won scoring titles and all had top 3 DPOY finishes.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kevin Garnett is another excellent choice. Pippen was not a sufficiently skilled offensive player to be considered here.

neither was KG, plus, all you guys are reading the topic wrong.. top 5 on either/both sides, if its just both combined, we'd simply be looking at the best ever list :wtf: :hammerhead:

[72-10]

You overlooked the fact that Pippen is older. Older players usually aren't as good defensively. Could you please stop pushing your agenda?

[72-10]

David Robinson won a scoring title and DPOY in the same season. Hakeem and prime Kareem were both dominant 2-way players. Lebron, Wade, and Kobe have all won scoring titles and all had top 3 DPOY finishes.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-27-2015/pj-DGW.gif

SPLENDID CHOICE!

[3ball]

Now you're really overstepping the bounds. You think he's better than Gary Payton? Someone get this guy a Coke.
There isn't a single defensive quality that prime Payton had over prime Jordan - Jordan was quicker, faster, stronger, taller, longer, smarter..... did I mention quicker?

But most new fans literally forget about Jordan's dpoy defense because they're understandably enamored with his goat offense.. Jordan always had this problem.

Otoh, guys like Payton and Moncrief didn't have offense like that, so fans notice their defense more... It's as simple as that.

But I'm certain that Jordan was a better perimeter defender than Payton.. I'm also certain that Jordan was the greatest perimeter defender of all time...

So again - among non-bigs, Jordan was a top 5 all-time defender and top 5 offensive player - he's the only guy that ranks top 5 on both sides of the ball among non-bigs.

Among big men, only Wilt is top 5 all-time on both sides of ball.

[Marchesk]

Wait a second, how is Hakeem a top 5 offensive big all-time?

His peak was 27.8/3.5 apg and his career average is 21.8 and 2.5. Those are good, but they're not top 5 all-time. He never led the league once in scoring. Never even got close to 30.

[Marchesk]

Both sides?

1. LeBron
2. Duncan
3. Hakeem
4. Garnett
5. Pippen

Lebron is literally the only one in that list who has a case for being a top 5 offensive player (perimeter).

Pippen is nowhere near top 5.

I'm going to guess most of you misunderstood OP.

[72-10]

Hakeem wasn't as productive as some bigs, but he was the most skilled. I'm done with this thread.

[3ball]

You overlooked the fact that Pippen is older. Older players usually aren't as good defensively.



Kobe broke 35-year old Pippen's ankles, but 35-year old Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/EStPHq.gif



Here's comparison of Pippen and MJ from the SAME GAME - Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2015/5FXjSn.gif



But old MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/n1LWjI.gif


The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was the frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s) and Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8).. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen..

Btw, Pippen's inferior defense isn't only shown by the eye test - the stats prove it too - virtually every decent wing in the league went off for HUGE games on Pippen - 35, 40, and 50 point games - whereas MJ rarely gave up a big game to anyone.
.

[Marchesk]

Hakeem wasn't as productive as some bigs, but he was the most skilled.

It doesn't matter that Hakeem was more skilled than Shaq. Shaq was a better offensive player.

[ShawkFactory]

It doesn't matter that Hakeem was more skilled than Shaq. Shaq was a better offensive player.
If you really need a big bucket from a big man, or a big game against a good defense, are there 5 guys you'd rather have than Hakeem?

[3ball]

The title of the thread has thrown some people off.

When ranking the big men ONLY, Wilt is the only guy that ranks top 5 all-time on both sides of the ball.

Among non-bigs ONLY, Jordan is the only guy that ranks top 5 on both sides of the ball.

[3ball]

Now you're really overstepping the bounds. You think he's better than Gary Payton? Someone get this guy a Coke.
There isn't a single defensive quality that prime Payton had over prime Jordan - Jordan was quicker, faster, stronger, taller, longer, smarter..... did I mention quicker?

But most new fans literally forget about Jordan's dpoy defense because they're understandably enamored with his goat offense.. Jordan always had this problem.

Otoh, guys like Payton and Moncrief didn't have offense like that, so fans notice their defense more... It's as simple as that.

But I'm certain that Jordan was a better perimeter defender than Payton.. I'm also certain that Jordan was the greatest perimeter defender of all time...

So again - among non-bigs, Jordan was a top 5 all-time defender and top 5 offensive player - he's the only guy that ranks top 5 on both sides of the ball among non-bigs.

Among big men, only Wilt is top 5 all-time on both sides of ball.

[Hey Yo]

MJ didn't play or even know what defense was until Pippen got there.

Hell.....he let Danny Ainge shoot 61% against him in the famous 63pt empty stats playoff game in 86.

[KobesFinger]

I'm surprised nobody had posted the Iverson gif

[3ball]

MJ didn't play or even know what defense was until Pippen got there.



MJ winning DPOY in 1988:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVhL8zYUsAE5lnC.jpg


MJ won the DPOY in 1988, during Pippen's rookie year when Pippen averaged 20 minutes and 7 ppg off the bench.

It's a good thing Pippen joined the Bulls during Jordan's DPOY season (where he also won scoring championship, MVP, all-star game MVP and dunk championship).

If Pippen had joined ANOTHER team in 1988 where the star player WASN'T the dpoy, scoring champ, and MVP, then he doesn't develop the same way.

Like, if he joins Roy Tarpley and Mark Aguirre's Mavericks in 1988, we would never have heard of Pippen - no championships, no mentoring by the DPOY, scoring champ and MVP as a rookie.
.

[Kawhi]

Could you please tell me why Wilt is a top five all-time defensive player, please? Wilt had some weird gimmick of not trying to foul out, ever. As soon as he got in foul trouble, he would stop defending.

[3ball]

Could you please tell me why Wilt is a top five all-time defensive player, please? Wilt had some weird gimmick of not trying to foul out, ever. As soon as he got in foul trouble, he would stop defending.
He averaged 20+ rebounds and like 10 blocks per game during his prime

and he was the greatest physical specimen the game's ever seen.
.

[Kawhi]

He averaged 20+ rebounds and like 10 blocks per game during his prime
Sure, but then again, there's a difference between being a shot blocker and a rim protector. For instance, would you rather have Hassan Whiteside, who leads the league in blocks, or would you rather have Rudy Gobert? Every human being with some sort of basketball knowledge would choose the latter.

[3ball]

Sure, but then again, there's a difference between being a shot blocker and a rim protector. For instance, would you rather have Hassan Whiteside, who leads the league in blocks, or would you rather have Rudy Gobert? Every human being with some sort of basketball knowledge would choose the latter.
I'd take Wilt over both.

Wilt was the greatest physical specimen the game's ever seen.

He had bow-legs like Dwight Howard - you don't see 7-footers with bow legs - it means they're super-athletic.

Wilt ran kind of similar to Howard too... Similar type of athlete even if the grainy, black-and-white doesn't show it.. He was a bigger version of Dwight Howard.

[Kawhi]

Wilt Chamberlain played in 1045 games, averaging a minutes per game of 46(!), yet he never fouled out. That's impossible if you keep defending the way you used to before you got fouls. Wilt obviously cared too much about stats and weird gimmicks.

Also, Wilt, apparently, blocked his shots like Dwight Howard does: swatting them into the 3rd row. While that is fun, and highlight material, it's not a great play as the opposing team still holds the possession after the block. Whereas someone like Russell, who also averaged crazy block numbers, would keep the ball inbounds and his team started the break off his blocks.

[Kawhi]

I'd take Wilt over both.
No shit, everyone would. I'm just giving you an example of the difference between a shot blocker and a rim protector.

[Kawhi]

Havlicek on Wilt's defense in his book Hondo: ''Wilt's greatest idiosyncrasy was not fouling out. He had never fouled out of a high school, college or professional game and that was the one record he was determined to protect. When he got that fourth foul, his game would change. I don't know how many potential victories he may have cheated his team out of by not really plying after he got into foul trouble.''

[Kawhi]

Not to mention, he did the same thing on offense somewhere mid 60's, when he became obsessed with passing and assisting. Passing up easy shots to set up teammates, checking the scorers table multiple times per game, complaining if he felt like he hadn't been credited for a specific assist, lambasting teammates for blowing his passes and taking an inordinate amount of delight in leading the league in '68. He settled into a bad habit of being too unselfish.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Not to mention, he did the same thing on offense somewhere mid 60's, when he became obsessed with passing and assisting. Passing up easy shots to set up teammates, checking the scorers table multiple times per game, complaining if he felt like he hadn't been credited for a specific assist, lambasting teammates for blowing his passes and taking an inordinate amount of delight in leading the league in '68. He settled into a bad habit of being too unselfish.

Ain't his team foul to stop the shot clock in his 100 game as well? Dude's records are gimmicky jokes. Send any ATG bigs back to that time and they do just as well if not better.

:oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

Thread cliffs: since no one, especially Mj is top 5 in offense and defense 3ball has to create an arbitrary category to prove nothing?

[GrapeApe]

MJ winning DPOY in 1988:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVhL8zYUsAE5lnC.jpg


MJ won the DPOY in 1988, during Pippen's rookie year when Pippen averaged 20 minutes and 7 ppg off the bench.

It's a good thing Pippen joined the Bulls during Jordan's DPOY season (where he also won scoring championship, MVP, all-star game MVP and dunk championship).

If Pippen had joined ANOTHER team in 1988 where the star player WASN'T the dpoy, scoring champ, and MVP, then he doesn't develop the same way.

Like, if he joins Roy Tarpley and Mark Aguirre's Mavericks in 1988, we would never have heard of Pippen - no championships, no mentoring by the DPOY, scoring champ and MVP as a rookie.
.

This is such a load of garbage. :oldlol:

Not only is it completely impossible to prove, but an argument can be made that Pippen impacted Jordan as much as the other way around. Jordan is the consensus GOAT in large part because of what Pippen helped him accomplish. Pippen was going to be a great regardless of where he was landed. You don't get drafted 5th out of Central Arkansas without being extremely talented. Even as a rookie Pippen had the reputation of being a hard worker and great competitor. Jordan did not instill those qualities in Pippen, they were already there. I think Jordan did help him as a scorer, but he was always going to be an outstanding defender, playmaker, and rebounder.

It's also not as if Jordan was some kind of great mentor. He was an arrogant narcissist, and before Pippen's arrival was largely viewed as a player who cared more about his individual numbers than team success.

[3ball]

Not only is it completely impossible to prove, but an argument can be made that Pippen impacted Jordan as much as the other way around. Jordan is the consensus GOAT in large part because of what Pippen helped him accomplish.


That's the definition of bias, because what's more likely:

A) a scrawny, rookie bench warmer that needed a TON of development influenced the DPOY, league MVP, and scoring champ, or B) the other way around

Obviously, the DPOY, league MVP, and scoring champ influenced the scrawny, bench warmer rookie, not the other way around.. :rolleyes:

[ShannonElements]

The way you word this shit is weird. So what you're saying, is Jordan is top five in both offense and defense, and so is wilt, but they're the only players that can make that claim(for bigs and perimeter players respectively)

Right?

[3ball]

MJ didn't play or even know what defense was until Pippen got there.

Hell.....he let Danny Ainge shoot 61% against him in the famous 63pt empty stats playoff game in 86.


At least he averaged 44 ppg for that series compared to Ainge's 17 - that's a 27 point gap.

Compare that to Lebron getting 28 ppg in 2014 Finals against Kawhi's 18.. That's only a 10 point gap.. Let's face it - he let Kawhi average 18 ppg on 61% - if he holds Kawhi to the same 12 ppg on 45% that OKC and DAL did, the Heat would've been competitive like those teams were...

And we haven't even talked about his 17 shots per game on offense.. The Heat could've WON the series if Lebron supplanted good defense on Kawhi with the same offensive aggressiveness he had in the 2015 Finals, where his 33 shot attempt average won 2 games from a better team with a worse supporting cast...

MJ's vastly more aggressive play on both sides of the ball would've led the Heat to victory.. Furthermore, his guys like Wade and Bosh would play to full statistical capacity alongside MJ (like Pippen and Grant did) and play with more heart, instead of having their stats crater alongside Lebron and play like bitches.


In 2015 Finals, Lebron took 33 shots per game - this offensive aggression allowed him to control pace and win 2 games.. But he still lost the series because his poor defense made a 7 ppg role player greater than Curry and he only shot 39% against single-coverage... Obviously, MJ wins the 2015 Finals because he never let Byron Russell be > Karl Malone and he never shot 39% against single coverage.

Regarding 2014 Finals - if Lebron could've held Kawhi to 12 ppg on 45% like OKC and DAL, the Heat would've been competitive like those teams were... And we haven't even mentioned his 17 shots per game on offense.. The Heat could've WON the series if Lebron had the same offensive aggressiveness he had in the 2015 Finals, where his 33 shot attempts won 2 games with a worse supporting cast against a better team... Obviously, MJ would've won 2014 Finals because he would've held Kawhi to the same 12 ppg that OKC and DAL did, and he wouldn't have hesitated to take 33 shot attempts.

The 2007 Finals were easily winnable - all 4 games were very close despite only 22 ppg on 35% from Lebron.. The Cavs had a great defense but they just needed a really great volume scorer.
.

[3ball]

The way you word this shit is weird. So what you're saying, is Jordan is top five in both offense and defense, and so is wilt, but they're the only players that can make that claim(for bigs and perimeter players respectively)

Right?


Yeah, it's a bad title, misleading..

But I think you got it - among non-bigs, only MJ is top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

Among bigs, only Wilt is top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs:


Among non-bigs, only MJ is top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

Among bigs, only Wilt is top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

[72-10]

MJ didn't play or even know what defense was until Pippen got there.

Hell.....he let Danny Ainge shoot 61% against him in the famous 63pt empty stats playoff game in 86.

This post is almost worse than 3ball's attempt to glorify everything Jordan did.

You must be joking. Jordan taught Pippen. Jordan set records for blocks by a guard in a season in 1986-87. He was the first player to have 200 steals and 100 blocks in the same season. He had the 4th most steals by a rookie in NBA history (at the time) in 1984-85.

And the 63 points was anything but empty stats. In fact it was the antithesis of that. Have you watched the game? You can buy it. He was carrying his team.

[GrapeApe]

That's the definition of bias, because what's more likely:

A) a scrawny, rookie bench warmer that needed a TON of development influenced the DPOY, league MVP, and scoring champ, or B) the other way around

Obviously, the DPOY, league MVP, and scoring champ influenced the scrawny, bench warmer rookie, not the other way around.. :rolleyes:

Well Jordan only won 1 playoff game before that "scrawny rookie bench warmer" arrived in Chicago. That isn't biased, that's a fact. All rookies need development, but it was very clear early in his career that Pippen was going to be a special player. Plus I don't know why you constantly call him scrawny as if Jordan some how had anything to do with him filling out. He was also an elite athlete from day one, which again had nothing to do with Jordan.

I'm not suggesting that Jordan didn't have ANY impact on Pippen's development as a player, but not nearly to the extent that you claim. You make it out to be that Pippen was some guy off the street that Jordan molded into a HOFer. Pippen was an elite talent, a hard worker, and uniquely skilled. He would have been great anywhere.

[Straight_Ballin]

Another Jordan vs Lebron comparison thread? :lol Sad that after all this time MJ is worlds better.

[72-10]

Well Jordan only won 1 playoff game before that "scrawny rookie bench warmer" arrived in Chicago. That isn't biased, that's a fact. All rookies need development, but it was very clear early in his career that Pippen was going to be a special player. Plus I don't know why you constantly call him scrawny as if Jordan some how had anything to do with him filling out. He was also an elite athlete from day one, which again had nothing to do with Jordan.

Well he certainly was a raw, athletic bench player early in his career. I think it was Brad Sellers who was starting instead of him.

I suppose it's speculation to say that a lot of the improvements to various facets of Pippen's game were influenced by Jordan, but Jordan certainly was a profound influence on Pippen. Maybe a Jordan biographer would know.

[iznogood]

IMO Jordan is the only one. I might be wrong though considering the fact that there' s only a small percentage of Wilt's career for us to see. I don't care much about his stats, DeAndre Jordan and Serge Ibaka and Hasan Whiteside are only some of the recent players whose stats suggest bigger defensive impact than they really provided.

[ShawkFactory]

Another Jordan vs Lebron comparison thread? :lol Sad that after all this time MJ is worlds better.
You're in the wrong thread I think..?

[La Frescobaldi]

If you really need a big bucket from a big man, or a big game against a good defense, are there 5 guys you'd rather have than Hakeem?
If we include 4s that also played the 5 - like Olajuwon did? I do believe we can do that without really thinking about it too awful hard.

Elvin Hayes
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain
Shaquille O'Neal
Bob McAdoo
Bill Walton
Dirk Nowitzki
Moses Malone
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

I could keep going really, I mean how many did you need?

Those are just the real REAL obvious guys. Worthy is a little small I guess, but there's McHale, Dantley..... I mean the overrating of Olajuown is pretty strong in here but if you are talking about guys that could score better, faster, longer than Hakeem there's been lots and lots of em. Dave DeBusschere shoot I'd argue for Dave Cowens. In a big game, & the dude had to score? Cowens = ferocious. Kevin Garnett. Willis Reed. That kid over on the Kings.... Cousins. That guy can get the ball in the hoop.

He gets trash a lot for his offense but I'll tell you straight out if you need a game of torrential offense you better not rule out Bill Russell. Because that game was so ugly but the man could play serious ball.

[La Frescobaldi]

Wilt Chamberlain played in 1045 games, averaging a minutes per game of 46(!), yet he never fouled out. That's impossible if you keep defending the way you used to before you got fouls. Wilt obviously cared too much about stats and weird gimmicks.

Also, Wilt, apparently, blocked his shots like Dwight Howard does: swatting them into the 3rd row. While that is fun, and highlight material, it's not a great play as the opposing team still holds the possession after the block. Whereas someone like Russell, who also averaged crazy block numbers, would keep the ball inbounds and his team started the break off his blocks.

Nah maybe in his first couple years he did that but 13 was great at aiming his blocks to get into the hands of his teammates. He would start fast breaks with blocked shots. I mean yeah sure he would make a statement on a guy sometimes and jam the ball hard into the bleachers but for the most part no.

And fouling ? He just didn't foul. Sure, all players get more cautious when they get to 5 fouls, including Hondo. But Chamberlain would go 4,5 , 8 games in a row and have zero fouls. You're reading into it. He just didn't foul, man.
Moses Malone was like that, too. He holds the record for most games never fouling out, and most consecutive no fouls, too. Those guys played real hard shouldered basketball, both of em. But they never fouled. At all.
Lebron James is that way too.
But anyhow if you look at Hundred's stat sheet..... he averaged 2 fouls a game for his entire career. Lots of his seasons were under 2 fouls per game.

[AngelEyes]

Well Jordan only won 1 playoff game before that "scrawny rookie bench warmer" arrived in Chicago. That isn't biased, that's a fact. All rookies need development, but it was very clear early in his career that Pippen was going to be a special player. Plus I don't know why you constantly call him scrawny as if Jordan some how had anything to do with him filling out. He was also an elite athlete from day one, which again had nothing to do with Jordan.

I'm not suggesting that Jordan didn't have ANY impact on Pippen's development as a player, but not nearly to the extent that you claim. You make it out to be that Pippen was some guy off the street that Jordan molded into a HOFer. Pippen was an elite talent, a hard worker, and uniquely skilled. He would have been great anywhere.

Did you see the rosters Jordan had before the 1988 season? They were ****ing abysmal. In the 1987 season, the year before Grant and Pippen arrived he had very little to work with. He had one of the least talented rosters around him. No star player, regardless of where they are in their career, is taking a team like that anywhere. You need talent to win and the Bulls didn't have any.

[AngelEyes]

Well Jordan only won 1 playoff game before that "scrawny rookie bench warmer" arrived in Chicago. That isn't biased, that's a fact. All rookies need development, but it was very clear early in his career that Pippen was going to be a special player. Plus I don't know why you constantly call him scrawny as if Jordan some how had anything to do with him filling out. He was also an elite athlete from day one, which again had nothing to do with Jordan.

I'm not suggesting that Jordan didn't have ANY impact on Pippen's development as a player, but not nearly to the extent that you claim. You make it out to be that Pippen was some guy off the street that Jordan molded into a HOFer. Pippen was an elite talent, a hard worker, and uniquely skilled. He would have been great anywhere.

Pippen and Grant were good players in 88' but that's all they were. Good role players. They were both inconsistent but showed flashes. The important thing is that Jordan finally had a decent team around him, not great, but a decent cast. When Grant and Pippen developed in the next few years that decent cast became a great cast.

[ClipperRevival]

If we include 4s that also played the 5 - like Olajuwon did? I do believe we can do that without really thinking about it too awful hard.

Elvin Hayes
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain
Shaquille O'Neal
Bob McAdoo
Bill Walton
Dirk Nowitzki
Moses Malone
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

I could keep going really, I mean how many did you need?

Those are just the real REAL obvious guys. Worthy is a little small I guess, but there's McHale, Dantley..... I mean the overrating of Olajuown is pretty strong in here but if you are talking about guys that could score better, faster, longer than Hakeem there's been lots and lots of em. Dave DeBusschere shoot I'd argue for Dave Cowens. In a big game, & the dude had to score? Cowens = ferocious. Kevin Garnett. Willis Reed. That kid over on the Kings.... Cousins. That guy can get the ball in the hoop.

He gets trash a lot for his offense but I'll tell you straight out if you need a game of torrential offense you better not rule out Bill Russell. Because that game was so ugly but the man could play serious ball.

Damn son, you just went full retard. Hakeem was the most complete offensive big ever. I didn't say most dominant but most complete. Putting a guy like Worthy and Dantley in the same sentence as Hakeem means you have an agenda.

[AngelEyes]

Well Jordan only won 1 playoff game before that "scrawny rookie bench warmer" arrived in Chicago. That isn't biased, that's a fact. All rookies need development, but it was very clear early in his career that Pippen was going to be a special player. Plus I don't know why you constantly call him scrawny as if Jordan some how had anything to do with him filling out. He was also an elite athlete from day one, which again had nothing to do with Jordan.

I'm not suggesting that Jordan didn't have ANY impact on Pippen's development as a player, but not nearly to the extent that you claim. You make it out to be that Pippen was some guy off the street that Jordan molded into a HOFer. Pippen was an elite talent, a hard worker, and uniquely skilled. He would have been great anywhere.

While that may be true that's still a pretty useless statement to make. Was Jordan expected to win playoff games with the lousy team he had around him against the juggernaut that was the Boston Celtics. They played them in 86' and 87'. The difference in talent between those two teams was absolutely ridiculous. Completely unfair to expect Chicago to even be competitive. In his rookie year in 85' he was going against the Milwaukee Bucks, again a far more talented team than what the Bulls were at that time. In jordan's first two seasons his second best player was one dimensional Orlando Woolridge, who was far more suited as an athletic role player than the second best player on a team. In 87' Jordan had practically nothing around him. He had a young Charles Oakley, who was a rugged rebounder but that's about it. He was always a good role player but never had any business being the second most important player on a team.

[K Xerxes]

If we include 4s that also played the 5 - like Olajuwon did? I do believe we can do that without really thinking about it too awful hard.

Elvin Hayes
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain
Shaquille O'Neal
Bob McAdoo
Bill Walton
Dirk Nowitzki
Moses Malone
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

I could keep going really, I mean how many did you need?

Those are just the real REAL obvious guys. Worthy is a little small I guess, but there's McHale, Dantley..... I mean the overrating of Olajuown is pretty strong in here but if you are talking about guys that could score better, faster, longer than Hakeem there's been lots and lots of em. Dave DeBusschere shoot I'd argue for Dave Cowens. In a big game, & the dude had to score? Cowens = ferocious. Kevin Garnett. Willis Reed. That kid over on the Kings.... Cousins. That guy can get the ball in the hoop.

He gets trash a lot for his offense but I'll tell you straight out if you need a game of torrential offense you better not rule out Bill Russell. Because that game was so ugly but the man could play serious ball.

Hakeem averaged 26ppg over his career in the playoffs. Taking a 10 year stretch from aged 23-32, he averaged 29ppg on 53% shooting. How many centers can top that offensive production?

Look I don't know about a top 5 big man offensively, that's tougher to argue. And there are other great big men to make a case for. But when you start throwing in names like Hayes, DeBusschere, Cowens, DeMarcus ****ing Cousins (????!) etc whose scoring outputs are clearly not comparable as though they are even debatable, you frankly embarrass yourself.

Cousins?! Seriously. If you think that Olajuwon is overrated that's your prerogative, but you clearly have lost it. Time to hit the care home old man.

[ShawkFactory]

If we include 4s that also played the 5 - like Olajuwon did? I do believe we can do that without really thinking about it too awful hard.

Elvin Hayes
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain
Shaquille O'Neal
Bob McAdoo
Bill Walton
Dirk Nowitzki
Moses Malone
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

I could keep going really, I mean how many did you need?

Those are just the real REAL obvious guys. Worthy is a little small I guess, but there's McHale, Dantley..... I mean the overrating of Olajuown is pretty strong in here but if you are talking about guys that could score better, faster, longer than Hakeem there's been lots and lots of em. Dave DeBusschere shoot I'd argue for Dave Cowens. In a big game, & the dude had to score? Cowens = ferocious. Kevin Garnett. Willis Reed. That kid over on the Kings.... Cousins. That guy can get the ball in the hoop.

He gets trash a lot for his offense but I'll tell you straight out if you need a game of torrential offense you better not rule out Bill Russell. Because that game was so ugly but the man could play serious ball.
Meh. I guess I can't really refute any of this because I never saw these guys play.

But Hakeem averaged 31 PPG in a two year span in the playoffs...while carrying his team to titles.

Potentially arguing Dave debusschere on that level? Doesn't seem right.

But again, I don't know.

[K Xerxes]

Meh. I guess I can't really refute any of this because I never saw these guys play.

But Hakeem averaged 31 PPG in a two year span in the playoffs...while carrying his team to titles.

Potentially arguing Dave debusschere on that level? Doesn't seem right.

But again, I don't know.

Regardless, at some point pure production has to matter and these guys are high teens, low twenty scorers. Not really even in the same ballpark even if they played in the stone ages.

[ClipperRevival]

These are the facts. When MJ left his throne in 1993 and let other GOAT level legends compete for titles, it was Hakeem who rose to the top. And we are talking about maybe the GOAT era EVER for superstars sans the 60's. Hakeem utterly proved his class during these 2 years. Anyone trying to degrade this legendary run is a blithering idiot. Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mutombo and Mourning. He conquered them all.

[La Frescobaldi]

Hakeem averaged 26ppg over his career in the playoffs. Taking a 10 year stretch from aged 23-32, he averaged 29ppg on 53% shooting. How many centers can top that offensive production?

Look I don't know about a top 5 big man offensively, that's tougher to argue. And there are other great big men to make a case for. But when you start throwing in names like Hayes, DeBusschere, Cowens, DeMarcus ****ing Cousins (????!) etc whose scoring outputs are clearly not comparable as though they are even debatable, you frankly embarrass yourself.

Cousins?! Seriously. If you think that Olajuwon is overrated that's your prerogative, but you clearly have lost it. Time to hit the care home old man.

We're talking 1 big game here, not career. People sleeping on Cowens lulz

Yeah cousins might be a stretch. DeBusschere though and those other guys could score just as well or better. Absolutely.
You doubt Elvin Hayes? you obviously never saw him or probly hardly any of those guys tbh.

[La Frescobaldi]

Meh. I guess I can't really refute any of this because I never saw these guys play.

But Hakeem averaged 31 PPG in a two year span in the playoffs...while carrying his team to titles.

Potentially arguing Dave debusschere on that level? Doesn't seem right.

But again, I don't know.

the question about a big bucket or a big game......... was much narrower than the thread subject though. Do I think those guys overall are at Olajuwon's level? Some yes, some no. But for pure getting buckets, it is what it is. Elite NBA players are unstoppable and those are some of the greatest ever.

[La Frescobaldi]

Regardless, at some point pure production has to matter and these guys are high teens, low twenty scorers. Not really even in the same ballpark even if they played in the stone ages.
not the question he made though. He was talking about 1 big game. Not a season, not a career, but a thundering offensive outpour.

All those guys had huge games in their careers.

[La Frescobaldi]

These are the facts. When MJ left his throne in 1993 and let other GOAT level legends compete for titles, it was Hakeem who rose to the top. And we are talking about maybe the GOAT era EVER for superstars sans the 60's. Hakeem utterly proved his class during these 2 years. Anyone trying to degrade this legendary run is a blithering idiot. Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mutombo and Mourning. He conquered them all.
c'mon man the 90s had far fewer great teams than the 80s. Or early 70s for that matter.

[K Xerxes]

We're talking 1 big game here, not career. People sleeping on Cowens lulz

Yeah cousins might be a stretch. DeBusschere though and those other guys could score just as well or better. Absolutely.
You doubt Elvin Hayes? you obviously never saw him or probly hardly any of those guys tbh.

Well, surely consistently scoring in the 25-30ppg range over a span of playoff career means it's more likely they will score more in one big game of your choosing?

If we limit to to peak only, it only gets worse as Olajuwon put up 33ppg on good efficiency in 95, taking down elite 55+ win teams in each round. How is that not showing big game offensive pedigree? What did these others guys put up? And if they could score just as well or better, why didn't they? Not just why didn't they, but why didn't they even come close?

Yes I didn't see them play live. I apologise for being born in the 80s, but it's frankly asinine to argue with raw offensive production with 'lols you didn't watch them play but they were better scorers just cause'. Your reasoning is terrible.

[K Xerxes]

not the question he made though. He was talking about 1 big game. Not a season, not a career, but a thundering offensive outpour.

All those guys had huge games in their careers.

Well obviously with these 'thundering offensive outpours', they were equally capable of putting in offensive stinkers judging by their relatively low ppg whether counting career, single season, playoffs etc. Once again I do not see the logic here in not valuing consistency. Consistency means it's more likely that a player produces well in a big game, otherwise you could just as well get three 15 point games for a 40 point game. Which is more likely to happen?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Among non-big men, MJ was top 5 all-time on offense and defense.

Among big men, it's Wilt.

Non big defenders better than MJ: Tony, Kawhi, Payton, Pippen, Artest, Kirilenko, Cooper, Moncrief

Big defenders better than Wilt: Russell, KG, Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, Ewing, Big Ben, Thurmond, Deke, Bobby Jones

[La Frescobaldi]

Well obviously with these 'thundering offensive outpours', they were equally capable of putting in offensive stinkers judging by their relatively low ppg whether counting career, single season, playoffs etc. Once again I do not see the logic here in not valuing consistency. Consistency means it's more likely that a player produces well in a big game, otherwise you could just as well get three 15 point games for a 40 point game. Which is more likely to happen?

what part of this do you not understand?

ppg is a fallacy when a guy doesn't shoot because he's on a great team just for example. looking at career or season stats doesn't have anything remotely to do with that original question.

For example, Shaq had a 60 game yet his averages are much freaking lower. Duncan could have got lots of 50 point games but his team didn't call for that.

jeez a minimal amount of logic is too much for ish

[La Frescobaldi]

Non big defenders better than MJ: Tony, Kawhi, Payton, Pippen, Artest, Kirilenko, Cooper, Moncrief

Big defenders better than Wilt: Russell, KG, Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, Ewing, Big Ben, Thurmond, Deke, Bobby Jones

wha??

[j3lademaster]

3ball, can you list your top 5 offensive bigs and nonbigs as well as your defensive ones?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

wha??

He said MJ is a top 5 nonbig defender........i named multiple better nonbig defenders

He said Wilt is a top 5 big defender.........i named several better big defenders:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

3ball, can you list your top 5 offensive bigs and nonbigs as well as your defensive ones?


Big man offense

1) Wilt
2) Kareem
3) Shaq
4) Bob Petit
5) Mikan


Big man defense

1) Russell
2) Wilt
3) Ben Wallace
4) Robinson
5) Dikembe


Non-big man offense

1) MJ
2) Magic
3) Bird
4) Kobe
5) Lebron


Non-big man defense

1) MJ
2) Moncrief
3) Payton
4) T Allen
5) Pippen
6) Kawhi


MJ was basically a bigger version of Moncrief/Payton/Allen - he guarded PG's and SG's at an elite level like they did, but also guarded SF's at an elite level like Pippen/Kawhi..

And again - only MJ and Wilt are on the top 5 for each list.
.

[3ball]

Who is the only player in history to be scoring champ and DPOY in same season?

[Nash]

Rodman before Jordan: 17 rpg
Rodman with Jordan: 15 rpg

Rodman before Jordan: 7 ppg
Rodman with Jordan: 5 ppg

Jordan made Rodman worse.


Ron Harper before Jordan: 20ppg
Ron Harper with Jordan: 7ppg

Jordan made Ron Harper worse.

[SugarHill]

Big man offense

1) Wilt
2) Kareem
3) Shaq
4) Bob Petit
5) Mikan


Big man defense

1) Russell
2) Wilt
3) Ben Wallace
4) Robinson
5) Dikembe


.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[SugarHill]

what part of this do you not understand?

ppg is a fallacy when a guy doesn't shoot because he's on a great team just for example. looking at career or season stats doesn't have anything remotely to do with that original question.

For example, Shaq had a 60 game yet his averages are much freaking lower. Duncan could have got lots of 50 point games but his team didn't call for that.

jeez a minimal amount of logic is too much for ish
Let's be honest, the reason you're saying this is because deep down you know Hakeem is better than the old guys you love so much.

[Living Being]

OP made this thread so retarded and confusing for everyone for no reason.

QUESTION OF THIS THREAD:



Big Men
Offense
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Defense
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

Is there a player who is on both lists?

Non-Big Men
Offense
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Defense
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

Is there a player who is on both lists?

[pauk]

Both sides?

1. LeBron
2. Duncan
3. Hakeem
4. Garnett
5. Pippen/Jordan

This.

[La Frescobaldi]

Let's be honest, the reason you're saying this is because deep down you know Hakeem is better than the old guys you love so much.
actually i listed about as many newer guys as older. if it's not exactly even, it's not my fault the league doesn't play big anymore. nowitzki and duncan are about it these days

[feyki]

Bigs ;

Offence ,

Kareem
Mikan
Shaq
Dirk
Wilt

Defence ,

Russell
Hakeem
Duncan
Wilt
Admiral/Thurmond


Perimeter ;

Offence ,

Magic
Oscar
Jordan
Nash
Lebron

Defence ,

T.Allen
Bowen
Pippen
Payton
Jordan

..

[Kvnzhangyay]

Bigs ;

Offence ,

Kareem
Mikan
Shaq
Dirk
Wilt

Defence ,

Russell
Hakeem
Duncan
Wilt
Admiral/Thurmond


Perimeter ;

Offence ,

Magic
Oscar
Jordan
Nash
Lebron

Defence ,

T.Allen
Bowen
Pippen
Payton
Jordan

..

Not sure you can put Nash in that tier but very similar to mine, although I don't know much about Mikan

[feyki]

Not sure you can put Nash in that tier but very similar to mine, although I don't know much about Mikan

Nash had 50/40/90 level with 10+ Assists . His offence was all time great level but negative defender on the court too . Imagine him with good defence . He would be better than Dirk .

[Helix]

You people are seriously underrating Thurmond. He, Russell, and Chamberlain are the three greatest defensive centers of all time. And Chamberlain, the most dominant scorer the NBA has ever seen, is certainly a top five offensive center of all time.