MJ elevated teammates; Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers

[3ball]

.
Efficiency WITH Lebron James on the floor in 2015 Finals:

JR Smith
Delly
J. Jones
Shumpert

Total 56/171 (32.7%)


As you can see, those guys shot horribly WITH Lebron on the floor, which is pretty standard - it's become typical for Lebron's teammates to underperform alongside him in the Finals, for obvious reasons:

It's statistical fact that Lebron reduces his teammates' APG and increases their assisted rate, thus turning them from playmakers to play-finishers.. Not surprisingly, their simple play-finishing roles no longer find success against the best playoff teams.. :confusedshrug:

With teammates playing under capacity, the TEAM plays under capacity and eventually loses to an opponent they had the capacity to beat (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals) (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html).

That's the difference between 2/6 underachievement and 6/6 perfection.. MJ got the most out of his teammates (elevates teammates), while Lebron turns them into play-finishers, leading to team underperformance.

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. The reason is twofold (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60).
.

[plowking]

You need help. If anyone can convince you, it is your boy, the one you look up to, and slurp harder than anyone...

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

[aj1987]

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?
Because LeBron >>>>> MJ.

[3ball]

You need help. If anyone can convince you, it is your boy, the one you look up to, and slurp harder than anyone...


.
Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):. 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):. 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'):. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with..... Lebron (2015):.. 5.2, 25.0%

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):.. 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):.. 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN:. 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:.. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron:.. 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron:.. 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93':. 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95':. 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98':. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)


It's amazing - Lebron gets his APG by reducing his teammates' APG!!!!!... It's amazing that people rank him anywhere near Bird or Magic, let alone MJ.
.

[raprap]

I wonder why 3ball doesn't attack kobe. Is kobe not a threat to mj like bron and curry are? Or he likes kobe because he's a second rate mj?

[references]

sweet life champ

[3ball]

Because LeBron >>>>> MJ.



^^^ That isn't why Lebron turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers - this is:


Lebron and Harden are the only non-point guards in the top 50 for time of possession (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season).. His abnormally high time of possession from the forward position means that he adds a 2nd player with high time of possession to the court IN ADDITION TO THE EXISTING POINT GUARD.. This means his teammates have less time with the ball than other teams, whose forwards have a normal time of possession for forwards.

Along the same lines, starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.

Lebron's effect of turning teammates from playmakers to play-finishers prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all five guys SHARE the playmaking duties more equally.. But in Lebron's case, since his monopolization of the playmaking prevents the best brand of basketball, various equal or less-talented teams have pulled upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

[aj1987]

LeBron >>>>> MJ.
You finally get it! :cheers:

[3ball]

I wonder why 3ball doesn't attack kobe. Is kobe not a threat to mj like bron and curry are? Or he likes kobe because he's a second rate mj?


It isn't fun attacking Kobe because he doesn't have as many failures, Finals losses, chokes, beta moments, weaknesses, and his teammates always played great alongside him - Kobe never held any teammate down like Lebron does.

The story was never "oh, the Lakers lost because Kobe's teammates played bad".... When the Lakers lost, KOBE took the blame.

[3ball]

You finally get it! :cheers:


Indeed, MJ would've won every Finals that Lebron lost..

In 2015 Finals, Lebron took 33 shots per game - this offensive aggression allowed him to control pace and win 2 games.. But he still lost the series because his poor defense made a 7 ppg role player greater than Curry, and his efficiency was horrific despite single-coverage the entire series.. Obviously, MJ would've won the 2015 Finals because he never let a role player like Byron Russell be > Karl Malone and he never shot 39% against single coverage.

Regarding the 2014 Finals - if Lebron could've held Kawhi to 12 ppg on 45% like OKC and DAL, the Heat would've been competitive like those teams were... And we haven't even mentioned his 17 shots per game on offense.. The Heat could've WON the series if Lebron had the same offensive aggressiveness he had in the 2015 Finals, where his 33 shot attempts won 2 games with a worse supporting cast against a better team.. Again, MJ wins this series because he would've held Kawhi to 12 ppg like OKC and DAL did, and he wouldn't hesitate to take 33 shot attempts.

The 2007 Finals were easily winnable - all 4 games were very close and mostly 1-possession games, despite only 22 ppg on 35% from Lebron.. The Cavs had a great defense but they just needed a really great volume scorer.

[aj1987]

Indeed, MJ would've lost every Finals that Lebron played..

Agreed. :cheers:

[Smoke117]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

His logic is amazingly absurd...Lebron is the best player on every team he's been on and should have the ball more than his teammates...that their assist go down is WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN. Using Pippen as an example is just idiotic...of course his assist were higher with Jordan...some of those passes were going to the best player in the world instead of ****ing Pete Myers. Then what happens? The 2nd leading scorer on that 94 team leaves...so yeah I wonder why Pippens assist would go down when he's playing with shittier offensive players. :facepalm

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Curry > Jordan, 73-9 incoming

[references]

It isn't fun attacking Kobe because he doesn't have as many failures, Finals losses, chokes, beta moments, weaknesses, and his teammates always played great alongside him - Kobe never held any teammate down like Lebron does.

The story was never "oh, the Lakers lost because Kobe's teammates played bad".... When the Lakers lost, KOBE took the blame.
you know what you are? you are that voice inside a paranoid schizophrenic's head but you exist as a human being and the victim of the illness has no clue you exist.

[3ball]

Agreed. :cheers:


In 2015 Finals, the Cavs won 2 games because Lebron controlled pace by being aggressive offensively (33 shot attempts per game).. But the Cavs still lost the series in part because Lebron had horrific efficiency vs. single coverage and his horrible defense allowed a 7 ppg role player to be > Curry.

Regarding the 2014 Finals - if Lebron could've held Kawhi to 12 ppg on 45% like OKC and DAL, the Heat would've been competitive like those teams were instead of getting blown away... And we haven't even mentioned his 17 shots per game on offense.. The Heat could've WON the series if Lebron had the same offensive aggressiveness he had in the 2015 Finals, where his 33 shot attempts won 2 games with a worse supporting cast against a better team.

The 2007 Finals were easily winnable - all 4 games were very close and mostly 1-possession games, despite only 22 ppg on 35% from Lebron.. The Cavs had a great defense but they just needed a really great volume scorer.

[aj1987]

MJ is not even top 10. LeBron is the GOAT!
You're on fire, 3ball! :applause:

[3ball]

His logic is amazingly absurd...Lebron is the best player on every team he's been on and should have the ball more than his teammates...that their assist go down is WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN. Using Pippen as an example is just idiotic...of course his assist were higher with Jordan...some of those passes were going to the best player in the world instead of ****ing Pete Myers.


Wow, you're not making any sense

Like you said above - Pippen's assists are higher because he's passing to Jordan instead of Pete Myers, which is the same reason Wade's assists should be higher, since he's passing to Lebron instead of Michael Beasley.

But Wade's assists weren't higher... They were 33% lower (6.6 to 4.7) because Lebron isn't an OFF-BALL PLAYER like Jordan was, so Wade didn't have the opportunity to throw Lebron an assist like Pippen did Jordan..

Jordan's off-ball play was a reservoir of assists for teammates, whereas Lebron's ball-dominance means he scores on his own most of the time - similar to all point guards, teammates don't throw Lebron assists much (point guards are low-assisted players).

That's why Jordan's teams were so much better despite having worse talent - they were better PASSING teams, in large part because the GOAT scorer was an off-ball player.
.

[sdot_thadon]

Ummm, maybe lebron is on ball more because he's better at it than Mj was in a team setting? Success is the best evidence. Lebron's threat resolidified in the media over that last few weeks, so he's at red alert now. :oldlol:

[DMV2]

You need help. If anyone can convince you, it is your boy, the one you look up to, and slurp harder than anyone...

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gifthat GIF :lol so appropriate

[swagga]

You need help. If anyone can convince you, it is your boy, the one you look up to, and slurp harder than anyone...

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

/thread :roll: the 3ball gif

[Prime_Shaq]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[SpaceJam]

You need help. If anyone can convince you, it is your boy, the one you look up to, and slurp harder than anyone...

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

From this day forward this is going to end every 3ball thread :roll:

[JohnFreeman]

You need help. If anyone can convince you, it is your boy, the one you look up to, and slurp harder than anyone...

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif
:roll:

[Lebron23]

You need help. If anyone can convince you, it is your boy, the one you look up to, and slurp harder than anyone...

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif


:oldlol: :roll: :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

I fully expected this thread to be from last summer or some shit.

You're just repeating yourself. Like...you've made this exact thread a couple times now...

[Nuff Said]

Welcome back, homie.

[ralph_i_el]

I put peanut butter on my asshole and let my neighbors pit bull lick it off. I don't see what the problem was, no one got hurt, and no peanut butter got on any of my MJ memorabilia. My neighbor is just salty because he's a dirty LeBron stan, and I blast my Space Jam VHS every night.


:biggums:

[Springsteen]

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0191/5472/files/Superego_changingtheveryfabricofreality_cfadc_cutf romadifferentcloth_throwbackthursday_alleniverson_ michaeljordan_grande.jpg

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan isn't winning the '07 & '15 Finals, and he definitely isn't winning the '14 Finals. And you're full of shit about Kobe, he's had plenty of bad Finals performances, '00, '04, '08, and Game 7 in 2010

[Nash]

Jordan makes his teammates worse:

Rodman before Jordan: 17 rpg
Rodman with Jordan: 15 rpg

Rodman before Jordan: 7 ppg
Rodman with Jordan: 5 ppg

Jordan made Rodman worse.

Ron Harper before Jordan: 20ppg
Ron Harper with Jordan: 7ppg

Jordan made Ron Harper worse.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan isn't winning the '07 & '15 Finals, and he definitely isn't winning the '14 Finals. And you're full of shit about Kobe, he's had plenty of bad Finals performances, '00, '04, '08, and Game 7 in 2010

If Jordan's Cavs made the finals against SA in 2007, and the Warriors in 2015, he would've at least made it more competitive.

Don't rule out 2007 either. IIRC, every game in that series with LeBron was close and he played f*cking terrible. Jordan would've decimated Bowen and the entire Spurs' front line, completely throwing them off-kilter (and that's not describing what MJ would do if they dared him to shoot).

[hateraid]

3ball. He's not always right, well mostly not right, but he is the greatest click bait poster in NBA forum history

[Just2McFly]

If Jordan's Cavs made the finals against SA in 2007, and the Warriors in 2015, he would've at least made it more competitive.

Don't rule out 2007 either. IIRC, every game in that series with LeBron was close and he played f*cking terrible. Jordan would've decimated Bowen and the entire Spurs' front line, completely throwing them off-kilter (and that's not describing what MJ would do if they dared him to shoot).


IF is the key word in that statement, cause the Cavs had no business being in the Finals in 2007.

[Chadwin]

I have never seen this level of dedication to a topic. The closest was a guy bumping a thread on ls1tech for his overpriced Mustang for like 3 years every day.

Lebron at this point cannot surpass Jordan. That ship has sailed, so why bother?

[Mr. Jabbar]

i have to agree with psychoball on this one

[Hey Yo]

It isn't fun attacking Kobe because he doesn't have as many failures, Finals losses, chokes, beta moments, weaknesses, and his teammates always played great alongside him - Kobe never held any teammate down like Lebron does.

The story was never "oh, the Lakers lost because Kobe's teammates played bad".... When the Lakers lost, KOBE took the blame.
"The Lakers were eliminated in the first round for the second straight year and haven't won a playoff series since 2004, when Shaquille O'Neal left Los Angeles. Bryant let it be known after the game that changes must come.

"Do it and do it now," he said. "Personally for me, it's beyond frustration -- three years and still being at ground zero. This summer's a big summer. We have to see what direction we want to take as an organization and make those steps and make them now."
______

yep, there's Kobe taking all the blame......:oldlol: :rolleyes:

[Duffy Pratt]

So the key to determining whether someone elevates their teammates is relative APG and Assist Percentage.

79 Lakers -

Norm Nixon- 9 APG, 30.5%
Kareem - 5.4 APG, 18.9%

Then, with the addition of Magic Johnson

80 Lakers -

Nixon -7.8 APG, 25.3%
Kareem - 4.5 APG, 16.5%

In 1969, Havlicek had 5.4 assists per game for a 20.3%. In 1970, after Russell retired, his assists jumped to 6.8 and a 23.2%.

So there you have it. Proof positive, based on statistical fact, that Magic and Russell made their teammates worse. All hail 3Ball. I used to think that Magic was the poster boy for someone who made his teammates better. Now, I know better. 3Ball has proved it; its statistical fact.

[sd3035]

3ball puttin on a clinic :lol

[TheMarkMadsen]

IF is the key word in that statement, cause the Cavs had no business being in the Finals in 2007.


such nonsense. The final two games of that series were decided by a combined 3 points..

final game was decided by 1 point, Lebron went 10 for 30 and became the only player in NBA finals history to take 30 FGA and score less than 25 points. 6 turnovers to boot.

It should have been 2-2 going back to San Antonio.

[aj1987]

such nonsense. The final two games of that series were decided by a combined 3 points..

final game was decided by 1 point, Lebron went 10 for 30 and became the only player in NBA finals history to take 30 FGA and score less than 25 points. 6 turnovers to boot.

It should have been 2-2 going back to San Antonio.

IF is the key word in that statement, cause the Cavs had no business being in the Finals in 2007.

Yep.

[3ball]

Ron Harper before Jordan: 20ppg
Ron Harper with Jordan: 7ppg

Jordan made Ron Harper worse.


Harper averaged 7 ppg on Bulls during the 1995 season BEFORE Jordan came back at the end of that season.

Then he averaged the 7.7 ppg alongside Jordan during the 2nd three-peat (1996-1998).





Rodman before Jordan: 17 rpg
Rodman with Jordan: 15 rpg

Jordan made Rodman worse.


Your data is inaccurate - Rodman averaged 13 rebounds in his 9 years BEFORE Jordan, and 15 rebounds in the 3 years WITH Jordan.

The data I posted earlier for Lebron's teammates showed their assist average for ALL their years before Lebron, and then their average with Lebron.. Everyone's assist averages were significantly lower, while their assisted rates were significantly higher, proving Lebron turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers.

Not surprisingly, their simple play-finishing roles no longer find success against the best playoff teams.. :confusedshrug:

With teammates playing under capacity, the TEAM plays under capacity and eventually loses to an opponent they had the capacity to beat (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals) (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html).

That's the difference between 2/6 underachievement and 6/6 perfection.. MJ got the most out of his teammates (elevates teammates), while Lebron turns them into play-finishers, leading to team underperformance.

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. The reason is twofold (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60).

[sd3035]

Harper averaged 7 ppg on Bulls during the 1995 season BEFORE Jordan came back at the end of that season.

Then he averaged the 7.7 ppg alongside Jordan during the 2nd three-peat (1996-1998).



Your data is inaccurate - Rodman averaged 13 rebounds in his 9 years BEFORE Jordan, and 15 rebounds in the 3 years WITH Jordan.

The data I posted earlier for Lebron's teammates showed their assist average for ALL their years before Lebron, and then their average with Lebron.. Everyone's assist averages were significantly lower, while their assisted rates were significantly higher, proving Lebron turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers.

Not surprisingly, their simple play-finishing roles no longer find success against the best playoff teams.. :confusedshrug:

With teammates playing under capacity, the TEAM plays under capacity and eventually loses to an opponent they had the capacity to beat (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals) (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html).

That's the difference between 2/6 underachievement and 6/6 perfection.. MJ got the most out of his teammates (elevates teammates), while Lebron turns them into play-finishers, leading to team underperformance.

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. The reason is twofold (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60).


I think you should start collecting tuition fees from these kids

[AirBonner]

Bulls defense improved when Jordan retired the first time. Talk about elevating teammates :cheers:

[hiphopfan777]

I agree. Jordan also never had a loss when he had home court

[tpols]

IF is the key word in that statement, cause the Cavs had no business being in the Finals in 2007.

actually this is a misconception. The cavs road to the Finals started vs the Wizards and Nets, which MJ could've/would've easily torn through. Biggest test was an old Detroit on the brink of collapse, where bron averaged 26/9/8 on 54 TS 45 FG.. prime MJ destroys those numbers and was a better defender than 07 Lebron as well.


There's no "no business" getting to the finals when it comes to the east.. especially for anyone in top 20 GOAT.


Ironically, had they played out west, the 50 win Cavs wouldve been a 6 seed and played the Spurs in the first round instead of in the Finals. That's the difference conference disparity can make.

[tpols]

"The Lakers were eliminated in the first round for the second straight year and haven't won a playoff series since 2004, when Shaquille O'Neal left Los Angeles. Bryant let it be known after the game that changes must come.

"Do it and do it now," he said. "Personally for me, it's beyond frustration -- three years and still being at ground zero. This summer's a big summer. We have to see what direction we want to take as an organization and make those steps and make them now."
______

yep, there's Kobe taking all the blame......:oldlol: :rolleyes:

Kobes teammates were awful those years.. relative to conference much worse than anything Lebron's ever had.


The point 3ball is making though, is that when Shaq-Kobe Lakers lost, or Pau-Kobe, Dwight-Kobe Lakers lost, it was always the big bad cancer Kobe who was at fault. But when Lebron loses with Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love it's always because they sucked .. except for 2011, its always on them.


And a big reason for that, is because Lebron makes everyone's numbers around him much worse, while making his own better, like a sort of monstar stealing their talent type of thing. Kobe otoh never diminished the stats or roles of Pau, Odom, Shaq, Dwight etc. they all played at their optimal level or even better, so Kobe essentially gets penalized for making it easier on his teammates and catches blame himself, while Lebron literally does the opposite.

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobes teammates were awful those years.. relative to conference much worse than anything Lebron's ever had.


The point 3ball is making though, is that when Shaq-Kobe Lakers lost, or Pau-Kobe, Dwight-Kobe Lakers lost, it was always the big bad cancer Kobe who was at fault. But when Lebron loses with Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love it's always because they sucked .. except for 2011, its always on them.


And a big reason for that, is because Lebron makes everyone's numbers around him much worse, while making his own better, like a sort of monstar stealing their talent type of thing. Kobe otoh never diminished the stats of Pau, Odom, Shaq, Dwight etc. they all played at their optimal level or even better, so Kobe essentially gets penalized for making it easier on his teammates and catches blame himself, while Lebron literally does the opposite.

:applause:

[Magic 32]

Lebron is not a cross between MJ and Magic, he is a cross between Magic and AI.

[Chadwin]

I thought you covered this already in the thread about Jordan being better off the ball.

[red1]

That dedication doe. :eek:

If OP applied himself the same way in other aspects of life he would probably be running this website instead of torturing the people who use it.

[3ball]

some misinformation itt
.

[aj1987]

LeBron >>>>>>>>>>> MJ and it's not even close.
I 100% agree with this statement. :applause:

[3ball]

79 Lakers -

Norm Nixon- 9 APG, 30.5%
Kareem - 5.4 APG, 18.9%

Then, with the addition of Magic Johnson

80 Lakers -

Nixon -7.8 APG, 25.3%
Kareem - 4.5 APG, 16.5%


Your data isn't accurate for Norm's tenure with Magic - Norm averaged 7.9 apg during his 2 seasons before Magic came aboard, and 8.0 apg during his 4 seasons WITH Magic.

But this doesn't matter because you've completely missed the point being made.





I used to think that Magic was the poster boy for someone who made his teammates better. Now, I know better.


You've missed the point - point guards are the only players that have a high time of possession and low assisted rates (teammates rarely throw PG's assists because PG's operate off-the-dribble).

But Lebron plays point guard from the forward position, so his presence provides a 2nd player with high time of possession and low assisted rate IN ADDITION to the existing point guard.. His abnormally high time of possession and low assisted rate means his teammates have less time with the ball and less opportunity to assist than other teams whose forwards have a NORMAL time of possession and assisted rate for forwards.

This is why the stats show that Lebron lowers his teammates' assists and playmaking, which ultimately robs them of the capacity to succeed against the best playoff teams.. They underperform and are blamed for the losses, even though Lebron's style and method of accumulating his own stats (ball-dominant, PG-style from the forward position) robbed them of the capacity to perform well.

[NZStreetBaller]

Although 3ball is extremely annoying... take away all the stats and gifs and seriously watch the entire 1991 finals. MJ was a great team style player with goat level individual abilitys

[sd3035]

Lebron is not a cross between MJ and Magic, he is a cross between Magic and AI.

Iverson and Anthony Mason cross

[ShawkFactory]

Iverson and Anthony Mason cross
So a guy with Anthony Mason's size/strength/athleticism with the quickness and skill of Iverson? That's scary bro

[sd3035]

So a guy with Anthony Mason's size/strength/athleticism with the quickness and skill of Iverson? That's scary bro

cross would mean combining, not cherry picking a few aspects of each

He's half way between the two

[3ball]

So a guy with Anthony Mason's size/strength/athleticism with the quickness and skill of Iverson? That's scary bro


:roll:

Lebron is just a big, lumbering dude.. He doesn't have the quickness and skill of Iverson

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

Jordan isn't winning the 15' Finals


Lebron's poor defense made a 7 ppg role player greater than Curry, and he shot 39% against single-coverage the entire series..

Obviously, MJ would've won the 2015 Finals because his defense wouldn't let a role player be better than an all-time great and he never shot 39% against single coverage.. :confusedshrug:





Jordan isn't winning the 07' Finals


All 4 games were very close and mostly 1-possession games, despite an abysmal 22 ppg on 35% from Lebron..

The Cavs had a great defense but they just needed a really great volume scorer.





Jordan isn't winning the 14' Finals


Lebron allowed Kawhi to average 18 ppg on 61%.. If he held Kawhi to 12 ppg on 45% like OKC and Dallas did, the Heat would've been competitive like those teams were.

In addition to poor defense, Lebron only took 17 shots per game on offense - the Heat could've WON the series if Lebron complimented his good defense on Kawhi with the same offensive aggressiveness he had in the 2015 Finals, where his 33 shot attempts won 2 games with a worse supporting cast against a better team..

Obviously, MJ wins this series because he would've held Kawhi to 12 ppg like OKC and Dallas did (making for a competitive series like they did), and he wouldn't hesitate to take 33 shot attempts (instead of Lebron's 17)..

But most importantly, guys like Wade/Bosh would play BETTER alongside off-ball MJ than they did alongside ball-dominant Lebron - MJ would elevate these guys, instead of turning them into ineffective play-finishers like Lebron did.. The Heat would've been a completely different team altogether under Jordan's leadership, with superior chemistry, toughness, and defense.
.

[ShawkFactory]

cross would mean combining, not cherry picking a few aspects of each

He's half way between the two
But he's more athletic than Anthony mason was.

So I just assumed you were combining the best attributes of both. As people generally do when talking about crossing players.

[3ball]

Bulls defense improved when Jordan retired the first time.


This is factually inaccurate.. The ENTIRE LEAGUE had significantly worse offense in 1994 - PPG declined from 105.3 to 101.5 and league-wide DRtg declined from 108.0 to 106.3.

So even though the Bulls had similar declines, their ranking relative to the league (6th in DRtg) wasn't any better than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.

Keep in mind that the 1993 Bulls were half-assing it all year and waiting for the playoffs before turning it on, which they did by beating two 60-win teams.. Otoh, the 1994 Bulls were going all-out for the entire season, yet their superior effort didn't result in a better defensive ranking because they were missing their best defender (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s).





Talk about elevating teammates :cheers:


Furthermore, teams have a finite amount of energy to expend on both ends - shifts in performance/effort on one side normally take away from the other side.. But even though the Bulls offensive rating (ORtg) fell off a cliff in 1994 and they focused more on defense, their defense didn't improve relative to the league because they were missing their best defender (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s)..

Contrastingly, the presence of MJ gave the Bulls the highest ORtg's of all time.. But this GOAT improvement on offense didn't come at the expense of defense like it would for most teams.. His presence enabled a TWO-WAY team, which isn't surprising, since he's the goat two-way player according to Popovich (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875095&postcount=46).

So imagine Kawhi Leonard (as Popovich references), with the capability of scoring 15 more ppg.. That's Jordan... That's the GOAT.
.

[STATUTORY]

if you play with lebron, forget about dribbling, playmaking and expanding your game. King james makes sure you be eating scraps off his plates

no wonder players be f@cking his mother

[aj1987]

A role-player replaced Jordan and Bulls didn't miss a step. :applause:

LeBron >>>> MJ.
What has gotten into you, dude? I agree 100% again!

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

You need help. If anyone can convince you, it is your boy, the one you look up to, and slurp harder than anyone...

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif


:lol :lol :lol

end the thread here it's over 3ball

[Overdrive]

Lebron's poor defense made a 7 ppg role player greater than Curry, and he shot 39% against single-coverage the entire series..

Obviously, MJ would've won the 2015 Finals because his defense wouldn't let a role player be better than an all-time great and he never shot 39% against single coverage.. :confusedshrug:


Can you tell me Jordan's FG% against Payton and the Sonics in the '96 Finals?

[3ball]

Can you tell me Jordan's FG% against Payton and the Sonics in the '96 Finals?
Jordan averaged 31 ppg on 46% thru 3 games to get his team a 3-0 lead... Everything after that was garbage time.

Also, you misread the OP - I said that Jordan never shot 39% against SINGLE COVERAGE, which Lebron enjoyed the entire Finals - it's a fact that Lebron was double-teamed only 18 times in the entire Finals:


"Curry’s ability to guard one-on-one allowed the Warriors’ wing defenders to double-team LeBron James effectively. When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting (11 percent)".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team


Compare Lebron getting doubled only 18 times for the entire series, to Jordan getting doubled at least 10 times in a single GAME of the 1996 Finals.. The youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding MJ in Game 4 of 1996 Finals (link here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk)) - MJ was doubled exactly 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding - all 10 double-teams are shown if gifs here:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11792377&postcount=161

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Curry's offensive impact is greater than Jordan or LeBron's so this discussion is irrelevant to true offensive greatness

[riseagainst]

Not only did MJ elevate his teammates on the court, but he also elevated his father into heaven by getting him killed.