View Full Version : Did Curry already fall out of the running for GOAT when he didn't win Finals MVP?
lilteapot
03-02-2016, 11:27 AM
We all say MJ is the GOAT because of his untarnished Finals record and the fact that he won Finals MVP in all of them.
Does Curry not being the best performer in his first Finals take him out of the running?
AirTupac
03-02-2016, 11:33 AM
When you let your 6th man or an opposing SF win the Finals MVP, you cant be up for discussion.
OnFire
03-02-2016, 11:35 AM
In Jordans 6th season he was getting hammered while taking the L vs Detroit.
SouBeachTalents
03-02-2016, 11:37 AM
When you let your 6th man or an opposing SF win the Finals MVP, you cant be up for discussion.
Ditto having your teammate win FMVP 3 years in a row
AirTupac
03-02-2016, 11:40 AM
Ditto having your teammate win FMVP 3 years in a row
At least that ones not as bad because that teammate is arguably the most dominant player in the history of basketball. I mean if my 6th man (Lamar Odom) won FMVP thats not good for my legacy or if Ray Allen won FMVP because I was guarding him and lost to his team. Ya feel me bruh
warriorfan
03-02-2016, 11:41 AM
OP's mom is still in the running for GOAT **********
AirTupac
03-02-2016, 11:44 AM
OP's mom is still in the running for GOAT **********
LOL
Showtime2001
03-02-2016, 11:44 AM
Ditto having your teammate win FMVP 3 years in a row
Lol @ comparing peak Shaq to Iguoadala.
InsanityKills
03-02-2016, 11:47 AM
We all say MJ is the GOAT because of his untarnished Finals record and the fact that he won Finals MVP in all of them.
Does Curry not being the best performer in his first Finals take him out of the running?
Never was in the running to begin with.
dubnation
03-02-2016, 02:34 PM
Honestly it's a travesty that he didn't win FMVP. People are going to realize that more and more as time goes on...
Mr. Jabbar
03-02-2016, 02:38 PM
he is already goat unless mj can turn back time and avoid that half court game winner against okc from happening
lilteapot
03-02-2016, 02:40 PM
Honestly it's a travesty that he didn't win FMVP. People are going to realize that more and more as time goes on...
How was it a travesty? Iggy starting changed that series.
Honestly it's a travesty that he didn't win FMVP. People are going to realize that more and more as time goes on...
Yep. Iggy was the better story, LeBron winning a FMVP as the 2nd to do so on a winning team was the next best story.
dubnation
03-02-2016, 02:51 PM
How was it a travesty? Iggy starting changed that series.
Come on man, Iggy was an important piece but people are really overrating this. It was a better story because of his matchup with LBJ, but the stats just don't back it up.
Curry: 26/6.3/5.2 on 44/39/89
Iggy: 16/4/5.8 on 52/40/35.7
Lebron shot like sh*t all series, and the Warriors won game 1 in Lebron's best game. It's hard for me to give Iggy all the credit. Curry's presence opens up everything for the Warrior's offense, including all of the wide open shots that Iggy took advantage of, and I think that's the most important point. If Curry wasn't there, how do you think the series would have went?
ScalsFan21
03-02-2016, 02:53 PM
Honestly it's a travesty that he didn't win FMVP. People are going to realize that more and more as time goes on...
It's true. LeBron was more valuable to his team, but Curry was by far the biggest positive impact on the winning team. Without him attracting doubles all series, it was a 4-0 Cleveland sweep, no question about it. If he had gotten injured instead of Kyrie, there would be a whole different narrative rn.
Iggy was able to knock down clutch threes BECAUSE of Stephen Curry's presence on the court. Iggy's good defense on LeBron (albeit backed up by bigs in the paint always ready to help double if he got within 12 feet of the bucket) would have been a moot point without Curry.
As far as Curry being in the running for GOAT, he needs a lot to go right. It's possible he's a better defender than he's shown of late: plays the passing lanes smart, can sometimes D up but typically rests on his laurels knowing that he has an all-time stacked defensive supporting cast behind him, so he reserves his energy to play Jordanesque offense.
To me LeBron could go toe to toe with MJ as a player, but using the Michael example, he would play elite ball on both sides of the court without losing anything. Curry's playing it smart, only doing what is need. He dominates on ball and off ball. But he's not as complete as MJ even relative to his era as an individual player.
Current Curry extrapolated over 10 years of play just like this is STILL not quite Michael IMO. But top 3-5 all time? I don't see why not given that he's about as good offensively as Magic, and defensively neither were particularly great. His GOAT case is undoubtedly hindered by this being his first year of GOAT-level play at the age of 27. No other ATG had that unfortunate distinction.
90sgoat
03-02-2016, 02:55 PM
Not necessarily, Kareem,Bird,Magic lost finals MVP too.
It depends on what he does now. If he wins at least 5 rings more in the next 10 years then he has a case, but the eye test does not say he is GOAT. It does not say he is better than Kareem, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Wilt, Russel, Duncan, Hakeem.
The eye test says he is better than Lebron, Kobe, players of that sort.
Eye test = Best test.
That's why to rank him properly, it could go like top 20 all time or top 10 all time and he has the opportunity to rank top 5 all time if he really, really delivers in the next 10 years. We will see. GOAT is not gonna happen though.
lilteapot
03-02-2016, 02:58 PM
It's true. LeBron was more valuable to his team, but Curry was by far the biggest positive impact on the winning team. Without him attracting doubles all series, it was a 4-0 Cleveland sweep, no question about it. If he had gotten injured instead of Kyrie, there would be a whole different narrative rn.
Iggy was able to knock down clutch threes BECAUSE of Stephen Curry's presence on the court. Iggy's good defense on LeBron (albeit backed up by bigs in the paint always ready to help double if he got within 12 feet of the bucket) would have been a moot point without Curry.
As far as Curry being in the running for GOAT, he needs a lot to go right. It's possible he's a better defender than he's shown of late: plays the passing lanes smart, can sometimes D up but typically rests on his laurels knowing that he has an all-time stacked defensive supporting cast behind him, so he reserves his energy to play Jordanesque offense.
To me LeBron could go toe to toe with MJ as a player, but using the Michael example, he would play elite ball on both sides of the court without losing anything. Curry's playing it smart, only doing what is need. He dominates on ball and off ball. But he's not as complete as MJ even relative to his era as an individual player.
Current Curry extrapolated over 10 years of play just like this is STILL not quite Michael IMO. But top 3-5 all time? I don't see why not given that he's about as good offensively as Magic, and defensively neither were particularly great. His GOAT case is undoubtedly hindered by this being his first year of GOAT-level play at the age of 27. No other ATG had that unfortunate distinction.
This is a fallacious argument because you can argue that the best player on every championship team should win Finals MVP by default, no matter how they played, since all of them attract attention which allows other teammates to have more room to operate. Iggy knocked down huge 3s because he was focused, not because Curry entered his body and hit them for him. Iggy played good defense on Lebron because he didn't always allow him to get to his spots and is a GOOD DEFENDER. Don't try to take away a player's contributions because he plays with a great player.
nba_55
03-02-2016, 02:59 PM
Lebron was the most valuable player on the court and after him, it was Curry. Since they don't want to give it to the losing team player, Curry should have won the FMVP.
dubnation
03-02-2016, 03:02 PM
This is a fallacious argument because you can argue that the best player on every championship team should win Finals MVP by default, no matter how they played, since all of them attract attention which allows other teammates to have more room to operate. Iggy knocked down huge 3s because he was focused, not because Curry entered his body and hit them for him. Iggy played good defense on Lebron because he didn't always allow him to get to his spots and is a GOOD DEFENDER. Don't try to take away a player's contributions because he plays with a great player.
No one is taking anything away from Iggy. He had a great series. We're talking about relative value here.
ScalsFan21
03-02-2016, 03:12 PM
@Lilteapot - I'm just saying that Curry's presence was more valuable than Iggy's in my opinion. I think if you remove Curry, you cripple the team's chances of beating a team like the Cavs even if Kyrie still gets injured.
I think if you remove Iggy, a series win is still very possible. I'm not trying to minimize Iggy's contributions: he was HUGE in holding LeBron to a low FG% that never would have been as low as it was had he not been the primary defender assigned to him. I just don't think he was more "valuable" than Stephen Curry to the Warriors winning that series, which to me is all the criteria I need to say I would've voted Steph there.
I get that he was subpar statistically by his standards and had 1 and a half slow offensive games, and that he was tasked with an easy defensive assignment after Irving went down. Iggy on the other hand was crucial. I love Iggy and take nothing away from what he did, I just don't think Curry should've been "ZVC" as you guys say around here.
Kblaze8855
03-02-2016, 03:14 PM
Generally speaking fans I respect and people with credibility from involvment in the game dont much mention finals MVPs...and the dreaded casual fan....couldnt tell you who won the great majority of them anyway.
Its something really harped upon by a sweet spot of fans....those who care enough to come on places like this...but not enough to really look deeply into the game. So no...it wont keep him from anything. Most fans dont know who wins finals MVP and the opinion makers who really influence most casual fans would never bring up something like that as a negative to begin with.
So when you get down to it...it only impacts his rankings one place. internet forums.
Not in the general world of sports.
nba_55
03-02-2016, 03:16 PM
@Lilteapot - I'm just saying that Curry's presence was more valuable than Iggy's in my opinion. I think if you remove Curry, you cripple the team's chances of beating a team like the Cavs even if Kyrie still gets injured.
I think if you remove Iggy, a series win is still very possible. I'm not trying to minimize Iggy's contributions: he was HUGE in holding LeBron to a low FG% that never would have been as low as it was had he not been the primary defender assigned to him. I just don't think he was more "valuable" than Stephen Curry to the Warriors winning that series, which to me is all the criteria I need to say I would've voted Steph there.
I get that he was subpar statistically by his standards and had 1 and a half slow offensive games, and that he was tasked with an easy defensive assignment after Irving went down. Iggy on the other hand was crucial. I love Iggy and take nothing away from what he did, I just don't think Curry should've been "ZVC" as you guys say around here.
The only reason why Iggy won was because of expectations. People expected Curry to do better, they didn't expect Delly to have an impact on him. People didn't expect Iggy to play that well. If you take away expectations and look at the series objectively, you would see that Curry was clearly more valuable than Iggy.
ScalsFan21
03-02-2016, 03:22 PM
The only reason why Iggy won was because of expectations. People expected Curry to do better, they didn't expect Delly to have an impact on him. People didn't expect Iggy to play that well. If you take away expectations and look at the series objectively, you would see that Curry was clearly more valuable than Iggy.
Yeah pretty much.
And as far as the whole "best player should get it automatically by that logic" argument, while I don't think that should be literally the way it happens, it probably should happen on paper far more frequently than it does in football or baseball, where a David Eckstein or Santonio Holmes can win WS/SB MVP and have it be an accurate depiction of what happened in that championship.
In the star-driven NBA, it's a very rare thing to see a 2nd, 3rd or 4th option be more valuable over the course of a best-of-7 than the star player. So in a way, I think in 85% of cases, the best player should get it. Last year to me should have part of that 85%.
Generally I agree that FMVP is given too much weight around here though...
riseagainst
03-02-2016, 03:25 PM
he is already goat unless mj can turn back time and avoid that half court game winner against okc from happening
:lol
Zach LaVine
03-02-2016, 03:40 PM
The only reason why Iggy won was because of expectations. People expected Curry to do better, they didn't expect Delly to have an impact on him. People didn't expect Iggy to play that well. If you take away expectations and look at the series objectively, you would see that Curry was clearly more valuable than Iggy.
Yep
lilteapot
03-02-2016, 03:43 PM
Yeah pretty much.
And as far as the whole "best player should get it automatically by that logic" argument, while I don't think that should be literally the way it happens, it probably should happen on paper far more frequently than it does in football or baseball, where a David Eckstein or Santonio Holmes can win WS/SB MVP and have it be an accurate depiction of what happened in that championship.
In the star-driven NBA, it's a very rare thing to see a 2nd, 3rd or 4th option be more valuable over the course of a best-of-7 than the star player. So in a way, I think in 85% of cases, the best player should get it. Last year to me should have part of that 85%.
Generally I agree that FMVP is given too much weight around here though...
It doesn't matter. What is taken into consideration when people vote for FMVP is the overall impact a player has which directly leads to wins. Obviously Curry had an impact just being out there, but he also lost 2 games by just being out there. Kerr inserting Iggy into the lineup changed the tone of the series and as a result they won 3 straight games to win a chip. Ergo, Iguodala is the rightful MVP.
To clarify, I'm not trying to detract from Curry's accomplishments. He's the best in the game this year and the sky's the limit in terms of how many championships he'll win in his career. I do think if he wins 6 titles he deserves the same consideration as being the best of all time
dubnation
03-02-2016, 03:44 PM
It doesn't matter. What is taken into consideration when people vote for FMVP is the overall impact a player has which directly leads to wins. Obviously Curry had an impact just being out there, but he also lost 2 games by just being out there. Kerr inserting Iggy into the lineup changed the tone of the series and as a result they won 3 straight games to win a chip. Ergo, Iguodala is the rightful MVP.
You talk about fallacious arguments and then use this kind of logic? :roll:
lilteapot
03-02-2016, 03:47 PM
You talk about fallacious arguments and then use this kind of logic? :roll:
What is wrong with the logic? Iguodala was a game changer. If he doesn't start then maybe they don't win.
nba_55
03-02-2016, 03:50 PM
What is wrong with the logic? Iguodala was a game changer. If he doesn't start then maybe they don't win.
After losing game 1 against Bulls in 2011, Heat played Haslem more and that was a game changer. That doesn't make Haslem the MVP of the series. Game changer is not the same thing as MVP.
dubnation
03-02-2016, 03:52 PM
What is wrong with the logic? Iguodala was a game changer. If he doesn't start then maybe they don't win.
You're saying that the only reason the Warriors lost 2 games is because of Curry's play, and that the only reason they won the last 3 games is because Iggy started. Therefore, Iggy is the FMVP. Classic post hoc fallacy.
Curry won't be the GOAT, his career will never stack up to MJ or others because of his late-blooming. But I hope he can keep up this peak form and put up these numbers in the playoffs. That would be legendary.
lilteapot
03-02-2016, 03:55 PM
You're saying that the only reason the Warriors lost 2 games is because of Curry's play, and that the only reason they won the last 3 games is because Iggy started. Therefore, Iggy is the FMVP. Classic post hoc fallacy.
Curry won't be the GOAT, his career will never stack up to MJ or others because of his late-blooming. But I hope he can keep up this peak form and put up these numbers in the playoffs. That would be legendary.
Lol, where did I say that? I said that Curry wasn't much of a difference maker in the 2 games they lost, not that he was the reason they lost. But it's a fact that once Iggy started that they started to play their game against the Cavs and played more up-tempo and you can't deny it. Once Iggy started then things opened up for Curry even more.
You're saying that the only reason the Warriors lost 2 games is because of Curry's play, and that the only reason they won the last 3 games is because Iggy started. Therefore, Iggy is the FMVP. Classic post hoc fallacy.
Curry won't be the GOAT, his career will never stack up to MJ or others because of his late-blooming. But I hope he can keep up this peak form and put up these numbers in the playoffs. That would be legendary.
:applause:
riseagainst
03-02-2016, 03:57 PM
He might not become the GOAT, but if he wins MVP (pretty much a guarantee at this point) and FMVP (most likely) this year, he will have had the most dominant year as an individual player in NBA history. In other words, GOAT peak.
He has the stats, the efficiency, the awards, the wins, what else can you ask for?
nba_55
03-02-2016, 03:58 PM
Lol, where did I say that? I said that Curry wasn't much of a difference maker in the 2 games they lost, not that he was the reason they lost. But it's a fact that once Iggy started that they started to play their game against the Cavs and played more up-tempo and you can't deny it. Once Iggy started then things opened up for Curry even more.
That's because they went small. Bogut was a liability on offense, with him on the court, they could trap Curry and get away with it. Even when they replaced Bogut with Lee, GSW got to play up-tempo. The up-tempo was more about going small then Iggy changing everything by himself.
He might not become the GOAT, but if he wins MVP (pretty much a guarantee at this point) and FMVP (most likely) this year, he will have had the most dominant year as an individual player in NBA history. In other words, GOAT peak.
He has the stats, the efficiency, the awards, the wins, what else can you ask for?
Imagine what he could have done with healthy ankles. May have started his reign earlier.
Kingwillball
03-02-2016, 04:01 PM
He could never be goat either way.. Goat shooter is his goal.
The fact that he didn't win FMVP isn't that big of a deal. The thing that probably will take him out is the fact that he really didn't have an all-time great season until his 6th or 7th season (depending on what you think of last year). Now maybe if we see another 10 years of his current play then it doesn't matter, but that's a stretch.
lilteapot
03-02-2016, 04:02 PM
That's because they went small. Bogut was a liability on offense, with him on the court, they could trap Curry and get away with it. Even when they replaced Bogut with Lee, GSW got to play up-tempo. The up-tempo was more about going small then Iggy changing everything by himself.
He also played extremely well, shot well from 3 where he generally doesn't shoot well and defended like his life depended on it.
He might not become the GOAT, but if he wins MVP (pretty much a guarantee at this point) and FMVP (most likely) this year, he will have had the most dominant year as an individual player in NBA history. In other words, GOAT peak.
He has the stats, the efficiency, the awards, the wins, what else can you ask for?
Well he isn't an elite defender. Not saying that would take him out of the argument, just saying it would still be an argument.
riseagainst
03-02-2016, 04:04 PM
He could never be goat either way.. Goat shooter is his goal.
you are an idiot if you think he isn't already the GOAT shooter. Then again, you are a lebron stan.
He also played extremely well, shot well from 3 where he generally doesn't shoot well and defended like his life depended on it.
On offense, he has Curry to thank for that. Your post also has to do with the expectations discussed earlier.
nba_55
03-02-2016, 04:04 PM
Well he isn't an elite defender. Not saying that would take him out of the argument, just saying it would still be an argument.
He played great, but Curry was more valuable. Almost all of Iggy's points came from Curry traps.
lilteapot
03-02-2016, 04:11 PM
On offense, he has Curry to thank for that. Your post also has to do with the expectations discussed earlier.
Yeah, but he still has to make the shots. He made 40% of them during the entire series. He shot 35% during the entire season
Yeah, but he still has to make the shots. He made 40% of them during the entire series. He shot 35% during the entire season
I'm not criticizing Iggy at all. What I'm saying is that Curry made life easier for Iggy on offense, and expectations played a role in FMVP voting.
He played great, but Curry was more valuable. Almost all of Iggy's points came from Curry traps.
This.
you are an idiot if you think he isn't already the GOAT shooter. Then again, you are a lebron stan.
This. I grew up watching Bird, then Reggie, and of course watched Ray Allen. I have never seen anything like this.
He played great, but Curry was more valuable. Almost all of Iggy's points came from Curry traps.
Not sure what this response is for. I completely agree with you on this.
3ball
03-02-2016, 06:26 PM
.
Jordan's FMVP's = Iggy's last year...... IF Iggy averaged 35 ppg.
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/41/files/2015/06/andre-iguodala-lebron-james-nba-playoffs-golden-state-warriors-cleveland-cavaliers1.jpg
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/spring-1991-los-angeles-lakers-magic-johnson-right-is-guarded-by-of-picture-id569162619
Obviously, when Curry is awarded FMVP this season, it will be for his ONE-WAY performance, and therefore nowhere near Jordan's TWO-WAY impact
dubnation
03-02-2016, 07:12 PM
Not sure what this response is for. I completely agree with you on this.
Dude definitely just clicked the wrong quote button
Marchesk
03-02-2016, 09:58 PM
He might not become the GOAT, but if he wins MVP (pretty much a guarantee at this point) and FMVP (most likely) this year, he will have had the most dominant year as an individual player in NBA history. In other words, GOAT peak.
He has the stats, the efficiency, the awards, the wins, what else can you ask for?
Jesus, it's like Wilt is a fairy tale and Jordan didn't win 5 MVPs and six championships and I forgot how many scoring titles. It's also like peak Shaq was a myth.
dubnation
03-02-2016, 10:02 PM
Jesus, it's like Wilt is a fairy tale and Jordan didn't win 5 MVPs and six championships and I forgot how many scoring titles. It's also like peak Shaq was a myth.
Sports are all about recency effect man it wouldn't be as fun and exciting without it.
tpols
03-02-2016, 10:05 PM
Nah it makes it stronger actually.. I don't think jordan could ever lead a team that would have a slightly above average player win fmvp over him because mj could never make someone that much better.. the way a bird, magic, or curry could, truly dominant team influentiers as opposed to iso related offensive play.
LakersForlife
03-02-2016, 10:07 PM
he is already goat unless mj can turn back time and avoid that half court game winner against okc from happening
dont do that to them mr jabbar
tmacattack33
03-02-2016, 10:11 PM
Yes, due to fact that Andre Igoudala played great defense against Lebron James, Stephen Curry is not better than Michael Jordan.
Da_Realist
03-02-2016, 10:16 PM
Nah it makes it stronger actually.. I don't think jordan could ever lead a team that would have a slightly above average player win fmvp over him because mj could never make someone that much better.. the way a bird, magic, or curry could, truly dominant team influentiers as opposed to iso related offensive play.
Scottie Pippen was better in the 91, 92 and 93 Finals than Iggy was last year.
Marchesk
03-02-2016, 10:28 PM
Sports are all about recency effect man it wouldn't be as fun and exciting without it.
True. And Curry's impact as a shooter is on an all-time great level. I'm fine with people saying they've never seen anyone shoot like this before. Curry is one of those rare players who brings something new under the sun to the game.
The better than Jordan talk is a bit much, but this is ISH.
Straight_Ballin
03-02-2016, 11:20 PM
Honestly it's a travesty that he didn't win FMVP. People are going to realize that more and more as time goes on...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EgwxMHMfQhU/UfzSw4fT6iI/AAAAAAAABKw/pKVohscntN8/s316-Ic42/n%2525C3%2525A3o%252520pode%252520ser.gif
1 way players who let Delly drop 20 point on them are now suppose to win FVMP....I've heard it all now.
dubnation
03-02-2016, 11:25 PM
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EgwxMHMfQhU/UfzSw4fT6iI/AAAAAAAABKw/pKVohscntN8/s316-Ic42/n%2525C3%2525A3o%252520pode%252520ser.gif
1 way players who let Delly drop 20 point on them are now suppose to win FVMP....I've heard it all now.
You haven't even responded to my post in the other thread. Give it a break old man.
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