lol nobody actually thinks lebron is better than shaq, kobe, duncan, or dirk do they?

[masonanddixon]

Seriously, Millenials, I've had enough of your bullshit.

No one actually takes lebron seriously as an all time great.

[aj1987]

Seriously, Millenials, I've had enough of your bullshit.

No one actually takes lebron seriously as an all time great.
Shaq >>>> LeBron
Duncan > LeBron
LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dirk
LeBron = Kobe

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Dirk lol

[masonanddixon]

Shaq >>>> LeBron
Duncan > LeBron
LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dirk
LeBron = Kobe

lebron has done nothing to show hes better than The Almighty.

And we all saw what happened when they faced one another in the Finals :)))

[Lebron23]

Top 3 player of all time.

[masonanddixon]

Dirk lol

Are you cool with Carl Froch?

[masonanddixon]

Top 3 player of all time.

(Millenial)

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Are you cool with Carl Froch?

Nah he's so far up his own arse you wouldn't believe.

[masonanddixon]

Nah he's so far up his own arse you wouldn't believe.

Really? Well he is the world's biggest badass. And a megalomaniac. But I thought Brit athletes were supposed to be cool with the people.

[Uncle Drew]

Dirk he said. :oldlol:

[masonanddixon]

Dirk he said. :oldlol:

Hey what happened when lebron faced The Almighty in the Finals?

[Gileraracer]

Damn Lebron is top 30 at best

[Uncle Drew]

Hey what happened when lebron faced The Almighty in the Finals?
What happened when Dirk faced an 8 seed in 2007?

[Uncle Drew]

Hey what happened when lebron faced The Almighty in the Finals?
What happened when you got called out for your bs in several Dirk threads?

[Prime_Shaq]

Shaq >>>> LeBron
Duncan > LeBron
LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dirk
LeBron = Kobe
Agreed

[masonanddixon]

What happened when Dirk faced an 8 seed in 2007?

Who cares? We're talking about the biggest stage in the game and one guy fell flat on his face when all the marbles were set on the table.

[BuffaloBill]

I'd take him over Kobe and Dirk, but not the other two

[sportjames23]

Shaq >>>> LeBron
Duncan > LeBron
LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dirk
LeBron = Kobe


:biggums:

Never seen that here at ISH. It's always > or < here.

[aj1987]

lebron has done nothing to show hes better than The Almighty.

And we all saw what happened when they faced one another in the Finals :)))
Has LeBron ever lost to the 8th seed?


:biggums:

Never seen that here at ISH. It's always > or < here.
I guess I was being objective.

[Prime_Shaq]

:biggums:

Never seen that here at ISH. It's always > or < here.
You mean objectivity? :lol

[Quickening]

You mean objectivity? :lol

Hardly objective, its called sitting on the fence... how are two players with such different styles of play, careers etc equal.

[masonanddixon]

Has LeBron ever lost to the 8th seed?


I guess I was being objective.

lol how many 50 win teams has lebron defeated?

yeah it's easy to get out the first round when your opponent is 10 games below 500, man.

[Nash]

He's a consensus top 10 player together with Shaq and Duncan. How you rank them within that top 10 is another story.

The rest he's better than.

[aj1987]

lol how many 50 win teams has lebron defeated?

yeah it's easy to get out the first round when your opponent is 10 games below 500, man.
The '07 Warriors won 42 games, idiot.

Better question is how many 42 win teams did LeBron lose to?

[retaxis]

Hey son did i tell you to clean the crap out of the toilet boy? You damn born in the millenials while i was screwing ya mum since the cold war days. Now you shut your big trap and clean that crap off the toilet boy before i get in there and smash that laptop you spent the last 3 years saving for.

[masonanddixon]

The '07 Warriors won 42 games, idiot.

Better question is how many 42 win teams did LeBron lose to?

LOL a 42 win team would be a conference finals opponent for lebron.

[aj1987]

LOL a 42 win team would be a conference finals opponent for lebron.
Only difference is, Dirk chokes against the 42 win team and LeBron usually sweeps them.

[masonanddixon]

Only difference is, Dirk chokes against the 42 win team and LeBron usually sweeps them.

You mean like going down 3-2 to a putrid Celtics team?

Or getting creampied by Boston when you're the #1 seed?

Or how about losing in 6 to the Magic who then got creampied by the Lakers?

Essentially losing to teams that wouldn't even make the postseason out West, lmao.

[Uncle Drew]

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=398338
http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=398451

[ArbitraryWater]

I like aj's ranking style with the >>>..

Imma give it a try.

LeBron > Shaq
LeBron >> Duncan
LeBron >>> Dirk
LeBron >>>> Kobe
LeBron >>>>> Garnett
LeBron >>>>>>>>>> Wade

[aj1987]

You mean like going down 3-2 to a putrid Celtics team?
45/15/5 on 75% TS in game 6 in a W. Didn't Dirk choke against the Heat in '06 when they were down 3-2?


Or getting creampied by Boston when you're the #1 seed?
You got that wrong. Dirk got shit on by the 42 win Warriors in '07 in the FIRST ROUND. The Celtics were a 50 win team and they beat the Cavs in the ECSF. The same two who almost won the Finals.


Or how about losing in 6 to the Magic who then got creampied by the Lakers?
You mean the 59 win #1 defensive team? Dirk would've gotten swept.

LeBron against the Celtics - 27/9/7/2/1 on 56% TS
LeBron against the Magic - 39/8/8/1/1 on 59% TS

Dirk against the Warriors - 21/11/2/2/1 on 51% TS :oldlol:


Essentially Dirk losing to teams that wouldn't even make the postseason out East, lmao.
FTFY.


I like aj's ranking style with the >>>..

Imma give it a try.

LeBron > Shaq
LeBron >> Duncan
LeBron >>> Dirk
LeBron >>>> Kobe
LeBron >>>>> Garnett
LeBron >>>>>>>>>> Wade

AutisticWater strikes again! You should just stick with your alts, dude. I don't think anyone has yet figured those. :oldlol:

[ralph_i_el]

OP is like Donald Trump with downs

[ShawkFactory]

OP is like Donald Trump with downs
:roll:

He lumps Dirk in there so casually

[Overdrive]

I like aj's ranking style with the >>>..

Imma give it a try.

LeBron > Shaq
LeBron >> Duncan


Not even close, but what's to expect when people get their basketball knowledge from ESPN.

No team would draft Lebron above Shaq or Duncan without hindsight. Lebron was all hype coming out of highschool, but these two guys were legit the moment they entered the draft. Duncan was one if not the completest player ever out of the draft and he still had upside. Although Lebron was a phenonemon, people and teams weren't so sure that he would pan out as proclaimed - being the next MJ. He became great, but judging by expectations he actually fell short.

That leads me to hindsight. In hindsight any team would take those 2 guys above Lebron, because simply put he fell to short too many times. He's basically the Wilt of our times, tall tales, stats, great player, etc..

Shaq made it to 6 finals won 4; Duncan went to 6 won 5 and was just an Ray Allen/Kawhi ft away from winning six.

I'm not saying Lebron sucks, because of 2/6. Actually it's quite good winning 2 chips, especially against the imo teamwise way better '13 Spurs. What I'm saying is that he made 6 finals trips, due too lack of competition. Especially in the Miami years and last year's run. Only the crumbling Celtics and the Pacers, who lost their identity when they allowed Lance Stephenson to be their primary weapon, put up a fight in 4 seasons.

When Shaq and Duncan went to the finals in their prime they were the best players on one of the two best teams in the league. After their prime '05 for Shaq and '13, '14 they quasi became the elder statesmen leaders of their respective teams and helped alot to win.

Lebron can't be that elder statesman, because he obviously seems to think he can run teams all by himself. That's not how it works. A player having so much say in a team (make up) is always bad. There are experts, who plan rosters and it's their sole job. Lebron is a player and history has shown more often than not these guys aren't the best talent evaluators. They get tangled up in personal ties with teams, players, a player's school history etc..

He was always the best player on his teams, even in '11. He just mentally logged out of the finals when they came arolling.

The difference is Lebron was seldomly the best player on one of the two best teams. He wasn't in '07 some West teams were definately better than his Cavs and also the Pistons were a better team, but here he fullfilled the predraft promise for the merely only time in his career imo. He went Jordan on those Pistons. He was unstoppable and his game made the difference. The next years he suddenly lost that when it mattered. It resurfaced a bit in '12 vs the Celtics, but imo it never fully came back. His late game turnovers against the Pacers the next year nearly cost them the finals spot and he repeated that display in finals G6 late in game. What fuels the Kobe stans isn't that Ray hit that three. He did that all of his career. It's the fact that Lebron tried the two minutes before and failed - miserably.

So Shaq >>> Lebron
Duncan >>>> Lebron

Kobe and Lebron are tough to rank against. Kobe was drafted out of highschool, but he didn't have the hype and skills Lebron had. He was a benchwarmer on the Lakers, a 6th man, a second fiddle, a 1b, a star and now he's geriatric.

But as a second fiddle he was one of the best in the NBA(ca 2000 playoffs and a bit before), as a 1b he was an MVP candidate by himself on a team with an at that time better player, as a first option he put up stats that were unreal, single game, ppg, streaks etc. People forget too soon, how great he was, simply because he sucks now and is only in the NBA because of history and nothing else. Aside from his effiency, although his TS isn't that bad - 55% to Lebron's 58%, he put up good to great stat mosts of his career and so does and did Lebron. I think they're almost equal with a slightly advantage to Lebron.

There's no reason to discuss Dirk and Lebron. Dirk is one of my favs AT, but he's nowhere close to Lebron overall.

[moongaze]

What's with the ops love fest for Dirk? I mean I get that dudes an insecure whiteboy that feels the need to spam white players but dudes been in the league for like 40 years and only has one title

[ninephive]

I currently have:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Duncan
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Lebron
12. Oscar
13. West
14. Moses
15. Dr. J
16. Barkley
17. Malone
18. Dirk (would be much higher if he was a decent defender)
19. Baylor
20. Havilicek
...

[k0kakw0rld]

Seriously, Millenials, I've had enough of your bullshit.

No one actually takes lebron seriously as an all time great.
Kobe is top 12 even during his farewell tour :lol I know it hurts :cry:

[k0kakw0rld]

I currently have:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Duncan
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Lebron
12. Oscar
13. West
14. Moses
15. Dr. J
16. Barkley
17. Malone
18. Dirk (would be much higher if he was a decent defender)
19. Baylor
20. Havilicek
...
LeBron accomplished more with less.
ALready the greatest SF to ever play the game of Basketball. I know you hate the dude but no way in hell Bird, Dirk, Kobe are ahead of him.

[PP34Deuce]

I currently have:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Duncan
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Lebron
12. Oscar
13. West
14. Moses
15. Dr. J
16. Barkley
17. Malone
18. Dirk (would be much higher if he was a decent defender)
19. Baylor
20. Havilicek
...

I have Lebron above Kobe and Shaq right under Bird right now.

[Kingwillball]

Lebron will easily finish top 5 all time as greatest SF over bird the stats and raw talent will support claim. There is a slight chance lebron gets to 10 finals when it's said and done. Losing record or not that is impressive. He may be the leading scorer of all time and that is not his greatest strength oh btw he could also finish top 5 all time in assists and #1 rebounding SF of all time. ..2-6 is the dispute to hold him back from goat but he still is in conversation at end of day especially if he gets at least 1 more "ship..

[Bandito]

Only retarded Lebron stans forgethow Jason Terry made Lebron his daughter in the finals. And that same guy is better than Dirk :lol

[Lebron23]

I currently have:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Duncan
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Lebron
12. Oscar
13. West
14. Moses
15. Dr. J
16. Barkley
17. Malone
18. Dirk (would be much higher if he was a decent defender)
19. Baylor
20. Havilicek
...


This is a terrible lists. I hope you commit Seppuku right now. Before you starts your own family, and spread stupidity in this world.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-14-2015/vyNnjt.gif

[Lebron23]

LeBron accomplished more with less.
ALready the greatest SF to ever play the game of Basketball. I know you hate the dude but no way in hell Bird, Dirk, Kobe are ahead of him.


I hope the Spurs miraculously beat the Warriors. So that we can get another rematch in the NBA Finals, but it won't happen.

[Overdrive]

Lebron will easily finish top 5 all time as greatest SF over bird the stats and raw talent will support claim. There is a slight chance lebron gets to 10 finals when it's said and done. Losing record or not that is impressive. He may be the leading scorer of all time and that is not his greatest strength oh btw he could also finish top 5 all time in assists and #1 rebounding SF of all time. ..2-6 is the dispute to hold him back from goat but he still is in conversation at end of day especially if he gets at least 1 more "ship..

There's a big chance he loses 8 out of ten. Also if the east gets a solid younger team with a star player that stays together for more then 3 years, Lebron will have a problem. The Cavs aren't just made up well.

Bird and Lebron is debatable so far, but depending on the next years, even as a non fan, I'd have to give Lebron the nod if he doesn't drop off even more. Lebron's AT rank is floating atm, but if he retired today he'd be in top 10 discussion for sure. I actually think it's really hard to rank all time great players.

[ShawkFactory]

Only retarded Lebron stans forgethow Jason Terry made Lebron his daughter in the finals. And that same guy is better than Dirk :lol
Didn't the 42 win warriors make Dirk and the 67 win Mavericks their daughter in 2007? While Stephen fvcking Jackson went off?

Gotta be the biggest upset in NBA history. Dirk shot 38%.

It's unfair to judge someone's long career on its absolute lowest point.

[aj1987]

Didn't the 42 win warriors make Dirk and the 67 win Mavericks their daughter in 2007? While Stephen fvcking Jackson went off?

Gotta be the biggest upset in NBA history. Dirk shot 38%.

It's unfair to judge someone's long career on its absolute lowest point.
Kobe vs Pacers as well. 15 PPG on 35% shooting.

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe vs Pacers as well. 15 PPG on 35% shooting.
An injury played a part there.

04 against Detroit was his actual worst series.

But Dirk just completely shit the bed in 07...as a 67 win team. Could you imagine if Lebron had done that?

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Duncan went to 6 won 5 and was just an Ray Allen/Kawhi ft away from winning six.

So Shaq >>> Lebron
Duncan >>>> Lebron

:applause:


I currently have:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Duncan
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Lebron
12. Oscar
13. West
14. Moses
15. Dr. J
16. Barkley
17. Malone
18. Dirk (would be much higher if he was a decent defender)
19. Baylor
20. Havilicek
...

:bowdown:

[tpols]

imagine if dirk played in the east his whole career, and colluded with wade and bosh .. while Bron played with Jason Terry out west ..:lol He'd be the new scapegoat Mo and Bron would never win shit.

[Cold soul]

Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe are better players than Lebron however Dirk is much worse than those four players.

[Overdrive]

But Dirk just completely shit the bed in 07...as a 67 win team. Could you imagine if Lebron had done that?

Lebron shit the bed so often that there's nothing much left to imagination.

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron shit the bed so often that there's nothing much left to imagination.
If simply losing is shitting the bed then Dirk has done that every year of his career except one.

[f0und]

it should be shaq, duncan, lebron, kobe, dirk in that order.

[Overdrive]

If simply losing is shitting the bed then Dirk has done that every year of his career except one.

It's not about losing. It's about having the elbow game, the cramp game because of air condition(dude gets fed nutrition supplements that help to avoid cramps 100% - as most athletes), the '11 finals. Killing the Pistons one week, putting up shit stats vs the Spurs the next etc.

Simply losing, but putting up a fight, even of he doesn't have the best stats would be '09 Orlando, last years finals,...

[pauk]

"Nobody" = "Kobetards"

[tpols]

Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe are better players than Lebron however Dirk is much worse than those four players.

eh disagree, my man .. Shaq and Bron are more dominant than the other three physically, but their lack of skill and leadership can be exploited pretty badly.


what separates dirk from duncan and kobe in terms of just play ? careers I'd agree for sure, but that stuff is circumstantial. If Dirk played the bulk of his prime w/ all the guys they did, he'd have a similar ring count.

[Overdrive]

"Nobody" = "Kobetards"

I like the Lakers, I don't like Kobe, I think Duncan & Shaq are greater and better than Lebron.

What are you gonna do about that now? Call me Kobetard?


eh disagree, my man .. Shaq and Bron are more dominant than the other three physically, but their lack of skill and leadership can be exploited pretty badly.

Shaq was very skilled actually. He had good footwork and a powerful body. There were plenty of big fatties in the NBA during Shaq's days, but they never accounted to anything but an average NBA career at best.

Leadership is questionable. Most guys were very fond of him before the Kobe-Shaq feud. He seemed to acquire a let no shit fly attitude after the '98 playoffs, but later brawls and vocal duels with coaches and teammates point in the direction that he stopped being a really good leader after the 3 peat. Wade was praising him during their time together, but later painted a different picture of him.

[ArbitraryWater]

Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe are better players than Lebron however Dirk is much worse than those four players.

:facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

Not even close, but what's to expect when people get their basketball knowledge from ESPN.

No team would draft Lebron above Shaq or Duncan without hindsight. Lebron was all hype coming out of highschool, but these two guys were legit the moment they entered the draft. Duncan was one if not the completest player ever out of the draft and he still had upside. Although Lebron was a phenonemon, people and teams weren't so sure that he would pan out as proclaimed - being the next MJ. He became great, but judging by expectations he actually fell short.

That leads me to hindsight. In hindsight any team would take those 2 guys above Lebron, because simply put he fell to short too many times. He's basically the Wilt of our times, tall tales, stats, great player, etc..

Shaq made it to 6 finals won 4; Duncan went to 6 won 5 and was just an Ray Allen/Kawhi ft away from winning six.

I'm not saying Lebron sucks, because of 2/6. Actually it's quite good winning 2 chips, especially against the imo teamwise way better '13 Spurs. What I'm saying is that he made 6 finals trips, due too lack of competition. Especially in the Miami years and last year's run. Only the crumbling Celtics and the Pacers, who lost their identity when they allowed Lance Stephenson to be their primary weapon, put up a fight in 4 seasons.

When Shaq and Duncan went to the finals in their prime they were the best players on one of the two best teams in the league. After their prime '05 for Shaq and '13, '14 they quasi became the elder statesmen leaders of their respective teams and helped alot to win.

Lebron can't be that elder statesman, because he obviously seems to think he can run teams all by himself. That's not how it works. A player having so much say in a team (make up) is always bad. There are experts, who plan rosters and it's their sole job. Lebron is a player and history has shown more often than not these guys aren't the best talent evaluators. They get tangled up in personal ties with teams, players, a player's school history etc..

He was always the best player on his teams, even in '11. He just mentally logged out of the finals when they came arolling.

The difference is Lebron was seldomly the best player on one of the two best teams. He wasn't in '07 some West teams were definately better than his Cavs and also the Pistons were a better team, but here he fullfilled the predraft promise for the merely only time in his career imo. He went Jordan on those Pistons. He was unstoppable and his game made the difference. The next years he suddenly lost that when it mattered. It resurfaced a bit in '12 vs the Celtics, but imo it never fully came back. His late game turnovers against the Pacers the next year nearly cost them the finals spot and he repeated that display in finals G6 late in game. What fuels the Kobe stans isn't that Ray hit that three. He did that all of his career. It's the fact that Lebron tried the two minutes before and failed - miserably.

So Shaq >>> Lebron
Duncan >>>> Lebron

Kobe and Lebron are tough to rank against. Kobe was drafted out of highschool, but he didn't have the hype and skills Lebron had. He was a benchwarmer on the Lakers, a 6th man, a second fiddle, a 1b, a star and now he's geriatric.

But as a second fiddle he was one of the best in the NBA(ca 2000 playoffs and a bit before), as a 1b he was an MVP candidate by himself on a team with an at that time better player, as a first option he put up stats that were unreal, single game, ppg, streaks etc. People forget too soon, how great he was, simply because he sucks now and is only in the NBA because of history and nothing else. Aside from his effiency, although his TS isn't that bad - 55% to Lebron's 58%, he put up good to great stat mosts of his career and so does and did Lebron. I think they're almost equal with a slightly advantage to Lebron.

There's no reason to discuss Dirk and Lebron. Dirk is one of my favs AT, but he's nowhere close to Lebron overall.

Bro, this is some of the dumbest shit I've ever seen. Its so much of it as well.. and the author is so convinced!

[Cold soul]

he really isnt man .. Shaq and Bron are more dominant than the other three physically, but their lack of skill and leadership can be exploited pretty badly.


what separates dirk from duncan and kobe in terms of just play ? careers I'd agree for sure, but that stuff is circumstantial. If Dirk played the bulk of his prime w/ all the guys they did, he'd have a similar ring count.

Yeah to Dirk credit he never had Phil Jackson or Pop as coach if had better teammates Dirk likey wins more sure. I just feel Dirk was tier below those four players and in same tier as KG and Wade for example.

[pauk]

I like the Lakers, I don't like Kobe, I think Duncan & Shaq are greater and better than Lebron.

That i can deal & am fine with, they have the accolades & individual talent prominency to subject that opinion.... however this thread/OP includes Kobe and especially Dirk...



What are you gonna do about that now? Call me Kobetard?

No, you dont seem like a Kobetard(obligatory Lebron butthurtian) enough to think especially Dirk is better than Lebron or is at the level of Shaq, Duncan or even Kobe.... you pass the test.. :P

[miggyme1]

Yeah to Dirk credit he never had Phil Jackson or Pop as coach if had better teammates Dirk likey wins more sure. I just feel Dirk was tier below those four players and in same tier as KG and Wade for example.


ummmmm rick Carlisle is one of the best coaches if not the best in the nba today. You might wanna go look at his rap sheet....coaching has never been a problem in dallas.....just cant seem to keep talent....they have went through like 5 or 6 STARTING guards the past 4 seasons. monta,oj mayo,darren collision,barrea but they got him back,j kidd,terry, and im sure im missing some

[Overdrive]

Bro, this is some of the dumbest shit I've ever seen. Its so much of it as well.. and the author is so convinced!

What a convincing rebutal. You're one of the guys who gets insulted here the most, which is a feat quite by itself, so I'll surely take that to heart.

[red1]

Why not? Definitely better than kobe and dirk. Shaq and duncan have a strong case but that goes both ways.

[Cold soul]

ummmmm rick Carlisle is one of the best coaches if not the best in the nba today. You might wanna go look at his rap sheet....coaching has never been a problem in dallas.....just cant seem to keep talent....they have went through like 5 or 6 STARTING guards the past 4 seasons. monta,oj mayo,darren collision,barrea but they got him back,j kidd,terry, and im sure im missing some

Carlisle is very good coach but didn't come around until later in Dirk career mid 30's. If Dirk had Pop for his whole career I could only imagine the damage he would of done he likey has better career than we stand today timing is everything along with little luck.

[aj1987]

eh disagree, my man .. Shaq and Bron are more dominant than the other three physically, but their lack of skill and leadership can be exploited pretty badly.


what separates dirk from duncan and kobe in terms of just play ? careers I'd agree for sure, but that stuff is circumstantial. If Dirk played the bulk of his prime w/ all the guys they did, he'd have a similar ring count.
:biggums: :biggums:

Shaq isn't skilled!? :facepalm

Also, Kobe has good leadership qualities? No one wants to play with him, dude ran players out of town, was never really a 'nice' teammate, and snitched.

[Cold soul]

:biggums: :biggums:

Shaq isn't skilled!? :facepalm

Also, Kobe has good leadership qualities? No one wants to play with him, dude ran players out of town, was never really a 'nice' teammate, and snitched.

Kobe became good leader later in his career read Phil latest book on matter. You could say those things about early Kobe around Shaq feud but not after.

[ShawkFactory]

It's not about losing. It's about having the elbow game, the cramp game because of air condition(dude gets fed nutrition supplements that help to avoid cramps 100% - as most athletes), the '11 finals. Killing the Pistons one week, putting up shit stats vs the Spurs the next etc.

Simply losing, but putting up a fight, even of he doesn't have the best stats would be '09 Orlando, last years finals,...
That's not really shitting the bed. Didn't really have control over that one.

Went out in game 2 and played fantastic in a win.

Nobody puts Dirk under a scope like Lebron. If they did, he'd have several of these "chokes" as well.

Games 3-6 of the 06 finals? He did NOT play well. Including a 2-14 performance in game 4.

There really isn't much of an argument for Dirk > Lebron. You CAN make one...but not a good one at all.

[Overdrive]

That's not really shitting the bed. Didn't really have control over that one.

Went out in game 2 and played fantastic in a win.

Nobody puts Dirk under a scope like Lebron. If they did, he'd have several of these "chokes" as well.

Games 3-6 of the 06 finals? He did NOT play well. Including a 2-14 performance in game 4.

There really isn't much of an argument for Dirk > Lebron. You CAN make one...but not a good one at all.

I'm not making an argument for Dirk. He's simply below Lebron in career accomplishments and aside from his shooting/post game also talentwise, but saying Dirk shit the bad and imagine if Lebron did that is just false, because Lebron did it, too and same as Dirk not only once.

That's what I'm trying to get across.

[aj1987]

Kobe became good leader later in his career read Phil latest book on matter. You could say those things about early Kobe around Shaq feud but not after.
He didn't feel like a good leader in '06 or '07 or '13. Yeah, I'm not going to read an entire book PJ 'wrote', but can you post the excerpts.

[tpols]

:biggums: :biggums:

Shaq isn't skilled!? :facepalm

Also, Kobe has good leadership qualities? No one wants to play with him, dude ran players out of town, was never really a 'nice' teammate, and snitched.

i said their lack of skill can be exploited.. pretty clear for shaq w/ his FTs and Bron shooting in general. Shaq needed atg closing from Kobe and Wade, leading 4th quarters in points to win. Where was Dirk's Kobe and Wade?


Kobe had better leadership because of his work ethic.. leading by example. Not that he was the best or anything.. Dirk and Duncan are on a tier of their own there.

[miggyme1]

Carlisle is very good coach but didn't come around until later in Dirk career mid 30's. If Dirk had Pop for his whole career I could only imagine the damage he would of done he likey has better career than we stand today timing is everything along with little luck.


WHAT IF DIRK HAD CARLISLE HIS WHOLE CAREER????

You keep bringing up pop. Rick Carlisle is one hell of a coach...I don't know why people don't see that....rick Carlisle is on pops tier as far as coaching goes. Pop has benefited from having great players.......the same as phil Jackson......put rick Carlisle on the spurs and im sure they have the same success. Put rick with the old lakers squads and im sure they have the same success

[ShawkFactory]

I'm not making an argument for Dirk. He's simply below Lebron in career accomplishments and aside from his shooting/post game also talentwise, but saying Dirk shit the bad and imagine if Lebron did that is just false, because Lebron did it, too and same as Dirk not only once.

That's what I'm trying to get across.
Fair enough.

Though there are a lot of guys who are only above others because of relatively circumstantial accomplishments. The difference between elite players as far as ability and impact really isn't all that significant.

Duncan is many spots above Garnett on lists, but purely as players you could really go either way.

There's many other examples of this.

[miggyme1]

i said their lack of skill can be exploited.. pretty clear for shaq w/ his FTs and Bron shooting in general. Shaq needed atg closing from Kobe and Wade, leading 4th quarters in points to win. Where was Dirk's Kobe and Wade?


Kobe had better leadership because of his work ethic.. leading by example. Not that he was the best or anything.. Dirk and Duncan are on a tier of their own there.


I agree. Shaq could have been so much better......he always picked on Dwight but shaq underachieved as well. He should be the best center that has ever playd the game...poor diet and training cost him a shot at being top 10 all time. Its sad

[Cold soul]

WHAT IF DIRK HAD CARLISLE HIS WHOLE CAREER????

You keep bringing up pop. Rick Carlisle is one hell of a coach...I don't know why people don't see that....rick Carlisle is on pops tier as far as coaching goes. Pop has benefited from having great players.......the same as phil Jackson......put rick Carlisle on the spurs and im sure they have the same success. Put rick with the old lakers squads and im sure they have the same success

Yes, as I already said Carlisle is great coach even underrated by some. Dallas front office just wasn't nearly as successful as Lakers or Spurs in FA and drafting right players that's another reason why Dirk never really played with any all star players during his career.

[Cold soul]

I agree. Shaq could have been so much better......he always picked on Dwight but shaq underachieved as well. He should be the best center that has ever playd the game...poor diet and training cost him a shot at being top 10 all time. Its sad


Shaq has potential to be GOAT but lazy work ethic and getting in shape on company time hurt him along with his attitude. Shaq felt he could get by his freakish physical gifts alone which is reason why he never had great longivity.

[Overdrive]

i said their lack of skill can be exploited.. pretty clear for shaq w/ his FTs and Bron shooting in general. Shaq needed atg closing from Kobe and Wade, leading 4th quarters in points to win. Where was Dirk's Kobe and Wade?


Understood that wrong then. Fair point, but I think Shaq's skills in other areas overshadowed that.

[Quickening]

Shaq has potential to be GOAT but lazy work ethic and getting in shape on company time hurt him along with his attitude. Shaq felt he could get by his freakish physical gifts alone which is reason why he never had great longivity.

He had as many elite seasons as Kobe who people praise for his longevity

[Hey Yo]

Only retarded Lebron stans forgethow Jason Terry made Lebron his daughter in the finals. And that same guy is better than Dirk :lol
Highlights of Terry being LeBron's primary defensive assignment for the series??

Who was Wade guarding?

[aj1987]

i said their lack of skill can be exploited.. pretty clear for shaq w/ his FTs and Bron shooting in general. Shaq needed atg closing from Kobe and Wade, leading 4th quarters in points to win. Where was Dirk's Kobe and Wade?
Kobe and Shaq's 4th Q stats

'00 Playoffs:
Shaq - 9/4/1
Kobe - 5/1/1

'01 Playoffs:
Shaq - 6/3/1
Kobe - 8/2/1

'02 Playoffs:
Shaq - 6/4/1
Kobe - 8/1/1

'03 Playoffs:
Shaq - 7/4/1
Kobe - 10/1/1

'04 Playoffs:
Shaq - 5/3/1
Kobe - 6/1/1

And if you just look at the Finals:

'00 Finals:
Shaq - 12/5/1
Kobe - 4/1/2

'01 finals:
Shaq - 4/3/2 on
Kobe - 4/2/1 on

'02 Finals:
Shaq - 7/5/1
Kobe - 8/2/1

'04 Finals:
Shaq - 5/2
Kobe - 7/1/1

LeBron in the 4th in the Playoffs:

'07 - 8/2/2
'11 - 6/2/1
'12 - 7/3/1
'13 - 7/2/1
'14 - 6/2/1
'15 - 8/3/2

LeBron in the 4th in the Finals:

'07 - 10/2/2
'11 - 3/2/2
'12 - 7/3/1
'13 - 8/3/1
'14 - 4/1/1
'15 - 10/3/2

How exactly were LeBron and Shaq more exposed in the 4th. LeBron is also a better clutch player than Kobe, BTW.


Kobe had better leadership because of his work ethic.. leading by example. Not that he was the best or anything.. Dirk and Duncan are on a tier of their own there.
:roll: :roll:

You're straight reaching, bruh. Work ethic has nothing to do with leadership.


Shaq has potential to be GOAT but lazy work ethic and getting in shape on company time hurt him along with his attitude. Shaq felt he could get by his freakish physical gifts alone which is reason why he never had great longivity.
13 straight seasons of double digit rebounding. Averaged 18/8/2 in his 17th season. 14 straight seasons of 20+ PPG scoring. Averaged 25/11/3/3 over 17 seasons. Shay's longevity is underrated. Agree with the rest of your post though.

[HOoopCityJones]

Anytime someone tries to discredit Kobe's leadership you can feel the tab open from a ESPN article or an old excerpt from Phil's book.

[Mr. Jabbar]

this is legit one of the best threads Ive read here lately.

repped

[miggyme1]

Anytime someone tries to discredit Kobe's leadership you can feel the tab open from a ESPN article or an old excerpt from Phil's book.

LMAO.

kobe wasn't a great leader though

[aj1987]

Anytime someone tries to discredit Kobe's leadership you can feel the tab open from a ESPN article or an old excerpt from Phil's book.

Kobe became good leader later in his career read Phil latest book on matter. You could say those things about early Kobe around Shaq feud but not after.


Hold this L, kid.

[tpols]

Kobe and Shaq's 4th Q stats

why would you waste your time looking up all those stats.. when they show Kobe was outscoring Shaq by 25-30% in every year they were matched prime for prime?

And even then its beside the point, which was when did Dirk ever need a Kobe / Wade type ? He was a hair away from a ring w/ Josh Howard and Terry, and won one with a nice team around him in 2011 but nothing like what Shaq had.




How exactly were LeBron and Shaq more exposed in the 4th. LeBron is also a better clutch player than Kobe, BTW.

I didnt say they were exploited in the 4th quarters.. I said Shaq specifically needed atg closing to win anything. The exploitation could happen anywhere. Teams have been daring Lebron to shoot in 1st quarters.. that flaw can be exploited pretty much at anytime by top teams that can defend the rim and have some semblance of an offensive attack to put pressure on Bron and his team to score. You dont even know what clutch is. To you its an arbitrary stat listing, no feel for context.




You're straight reaching, bruh. Work ethic has nothing to do with leadership.
.

:wtf:

[ArbitraryWater]

Phil literally said in his NEW book, it was '09 when he started to embrace the role of a teammate, talking to guys on the plain trips more privately, going out eating, etc.... making the effort.

Late af. Screams bad leader.

Dirk >

[TheMarkMadsen]

Phil literally said in his NEW book, it was '09 when he started to embrace the role of a teammate, talking to guys on the plain trips more privately, going out eating, etc.... making the effort.

Late af. Screams bad leader.

Dirk >

Phil Jackson in 2001


Kobe's become the floor leader of a basketball team that was kind of looking for that nature of a player, who could not only be a scorer, but also be a playmaker or consistently make big plays at critical times," Jackson said. "So it was very important for Kobe to step into that role that he was envisioned at. I've always held the bar up very high for Kobe, and he's not only reached that bar, but he's jumping over the top of it right now.
"And I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it."
Jackson was quickly asked for a clarification. That includes Michael Jordan?
"I never asked Michael to be a playmaker," Jackson said. "That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."

sounds like a leader to me who is embracing his role of a teammate :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Lebronxrings]

top 3 >>>>top 10 players and kobe

[Showtime2001]

Kobe > LeBron in the clutch easily.

[aj1987]

why would you waste your time looking up all those stats.. when they show Kobe was outscoring Shaq by 25-30% in every year they were matched prime for prime?
Kobe outscored Shaq by 25%-30% every year? Source?


And even then its beside the point, which was when did Dirk ever need a Kobe / Wade type ? He was a hair away from a ring w/ Josh Howard and Terry, and won one with a nice team around him in 2011 but nothing like what Shaq had.
:wtf:

Why do I care about Dirk? Let me say this here. Kobe was really good in the 4th Q's of the 3peat, but Shaq was right there with him. Dude hit clutch FT's and scored almost the same as Kobe.



I didnt say they were exploited in the 4th quarters.. I said Shaq specifically needed atg closing to win anything.
Again, Shaq was really good in those 4th Q's as well.



The exploitation could happen anywhere. Teams have been daring Lebron to shoot in 1st quarters.. that flaw can be exploited pretty much at anytime by top teams that can defend the rim and have some semblance of an offensive attack to put pressure on Bron and his team to score. You dont even know what clutch is. To you its an arbitrary stat listing, no feel for context.
It feels like you're just talking out of your ass. I'm literally posting stats to backup everything I say and all you use is hyperbole or opinions.

[nba_55]

You guys take these trolls too seriously. They say dumb shit to get reaction, that's their only goal.

[Straight_Ballin]

Let's cut the bullshit here boys..... there's maybe but a handful a people between this site and real GM that have Bron as the 3rd best player. That is real talk. The thing that separates Shaq/Kobe/Duncan from Lebron is that instead of spending all their time whining about not having enough help, they spent their time winning. Those guys knew how to win enough titles to distance themselves from Lebron. As for Dirk, Lebron is obviously better than him both peak and career.

These kinds of conversations however are like listening to garbage pickers argue over who found a better TV in someone's trash (Lebron/Shaq/Kobe/Duncan discussions) and then asking the guy who threw out the older TV (the guy who watched MJ play live) about what he thinks of their "new" TV. :facepalm

By all means continue to debate, just know that me and the MJ family all have our feet propped up knowing that we already witnessed the GOAT and everything after that is... well.... really just a mediocre entertainment experience in comparison, hence the reason why so many former viewers that watched during MJ era stopped watching.

[aj1987]

Let's cut the bullshit here boys..... there's maybe but a handful a people between this site and real GM that have Bron as the 3rd best player. That is real talk. The thing that separates Shaq/Kobe/Duncan from Lebron is that instead of spending all their time whining about not having enough help, they spent their time winning. Those guys knew how to win enough titles to distance themselves from Lebron. As for Dirk, Lebron is obviously better than him both peak and career.

These kinds of conversations however are like listening to garbage pickers argue over who found a better TV in someone's trash (Lebron/Shaq/Kobe/Duncan discussions) and then asking the guy who threw out the older TV (the guy who watched MJ play live) about what he thinks of their "new" TV. :facepalm

By all means continue to debate, just know that me and the MJ family all have our feet propped up knowing that we already witnessed the GOAT and everything after that is... well.... really just a mediocre entertainment experience in comparison, hence the reason why so many former viewers that watched during MJ era stopped watching.
And yet, you retards register and have thousands of posts about a sport you claim you don't watch. The definition of rent free.

[LakersForlife]

imo lebron = vince carter and tmac

[Straight_Ballin]

And yet, you retards register and have thousands of posts about a sport you claim you don't watch. The definition of rent free.

I'm still watching, just know that I'm watching an inferior product. Those who have not seen MJ live are not even in position to comment on the matter, have no reference point of comparison, and should focus instead on moving out of their mom's basement instead of getting slayed on ISH on a daily basis by someone who posts only 4 times per day on average.......

That is the reality of the situation.

[Mr. Jabbar]

you can tell which millenial is gonna end up flipping burgers by how high they rank lebron, top 3 most likely means they'll flip em till retirement

[MP.Trey]

Lol nobody actually thinks dirk is better than lebron, kobe, duncan or shaq do they?

[ShawkFactory]

Let's cut the bullshit here boys..... there's maybe but a handful a people between this site and real GM that have Bron as the 3rd best player. That is real talk. The thing that separates Shaq/Kobe/Duncan from Lebron is that instead of spending all their time whining about not having enough help, they spent their time winning. Those guys knew how to win enough titles to distance themselves from Lebron. As for Dirk, Lebron is obviously better than him both peak and career.

These kinds of conversations however are like listening to garbage pickers argue over who found a better TV in someone's trash (Lebron/Shaq/Kobe/Duncan discussions) and then asking the guy who threw out the older TV (the guy who watched MJ play live) about what he thinks of their "new" TV. :facepalm

By all means continue to debate, just know that me and the MJ family all have our feet propped up knowing that we already witnessed the GOAT and everything after that is... well.... really just a mediocre entertainment experience in comparison, hence the reason why so many former viewers that watched during MJ era stopped watching.
Why even post this?

Make your own thread and keep your thoughts to yourself.

[Straight_Ballin]

Lol nobody actually thinks dirk is better than lebron, kobe, duncan or shaq do they?

I wouldn't put it past them. There was a time on here when people talked about Lebron being > MJ, and actually believe it until numerous posts on the subject set them straight.

That's what you call shitty parenting....

[Straight_Ballin]

Why even post this?

Make your own thread and keep your thoughts to yourself.

Stop questioning my posts. It's on topic. Just because you don't like the reality of the situation doesn't make it any less real.

[KungFuJoe]

Shaq > Lebron > Kobe > Dirk

[ShawkFactory]

Stop questioning my posts. It's on topic. Just because you don't like the reality of the situation doesn't make it any less real.
It literally has nothing to do with the "reality of the situation".

[ArbitraryWater]

I think any objective person with a decent understanding for the game can hold this to be the truth:

Bron > Shaq > Duncan > Dirk > Kobe

Like, totally past being sheep who fall for fallacies and what not

[Straight_Ballin]

I think any objective person with a decent understanding for the game can hold this to be the truth:

Bron > Shaq > Duncan > Dirk > Kobe

Like, totally past being sheep who fall for fallacies and what not

In terms of what, being the guy who tried to chase the most rings with only 2/6 to show for it? Yes, Bron is absolutely the greatest at showing us how big of a failure he is. Stop trying to pretend that you actually respect players who chase rings with only having 2/6 to show for it, soon to be 2/7. There's no logic behind it. The rest of those guys other than dirk have at least 4 rings and they didn't try to chase them to win them.

[tpols]

Kobe outscored Shaq by 25%-30% every year? Source?
.

You are the source lol..
whats 8 minus 6, divided by 8? 10 minus 7, divided by 10?

its all trivial, I dont need raw stats to say the above.. young Kobe was flat out better at closing games than peak Shaq, thats natural for a guard to be better at that than a center, but Shaq's FT liability was Wilt-esque, and definitely an extra impediment to his closing ability.

[Height Freak]

Not even close, but what's to expect when people get their basketball knowledge from ESPN.

No team would draft Lebron above Shaq or Duncan without hindsight. Lebron was all hype coming out of highschool, but these two guys were legit the moment they entered the draft. Duncan was one if not the completest player ever out of the draft and he still had upside. Although Lebron was a phenonemon, people and teams weren't so sure that he would pan out as proclaimed - being the next MJ. He became great, but judging by expectations he actually fell short.

That leads me to hindsight. In hindsight any team would take those 2 guys above Lebron, because simply put he fell to short too many times. He's basically the Wilt of our times, tall tales, stats, great player, etc..

Shaq made it to 6 finals won 4; Duncan went to 6 won 5 and was just an Ray Allen/Kawhi ft away from winning six.

I'm not saying Lebron sucks, because of 2/6. Actually it's quite good winning 2 chips, especially against the imo teamwise way better '13 Spurs. What I'm saying is that he made 6 finals trips, due too lack of competition. Especially in the Miami years and last year's run. Only the crumbling Celtics and the Pacers, who lost their identity when they allowed Lance Stephenson to be their primary weapon, put up a fight in 4 seasons.

When Shaq and Duncan went to the finals in their prime they were the best players on one of the two best teams in the league. After their prime '05 for Shaq and '13, '14 they quasi became the elder statesmen leaders of their respective teams and helped alot to win.

Lebron can't be that elder statesman, because he obviously seems to think he can run teams all by himself. That's not how it works. A player having so much say in a team (make up) is always bad. There are experts, who plan rosters and it's their sole job. Lebron is a player and history has shown more often than not these guys aren't the best talent evaluators. They get tangled up in personal ties with teams, players, a player's school history etc..

He was always the best player on his teams, even in '11. He just mentally logged out of the finals when they came arolling.

The difference is Lebron was seldomly the best player on one of the two best teams. He wasn't in '07 some West teams were definately better than his Cavs and also the Pistons were a better team, but here he fullfilled the predraft promise for the merely only time in his career imo. He went Jordan on those Pistons. He was unstoppable and his game made the difference. The next years he suddenly lost that when it mattered. It resurfaced a bit in '12 vs the Celtics, but imo it never fully came back. His late game turnovers against the Pacers the next year nearly cost them the finals spot and he repeated that display in finals G6 late in game. What fuels the Kobe stans isn't that Ray hit that three. He did that all of his career. It's the fact that Lebron tried the two minutes before and failed - miserably.

So Shaq >>> Lebron
Duncan >>>> Lebron

Kobe and Lebron are tough to rank against. Kobe was drafted out of highschool, but he didn't have the hype and skills Lebron had. He was a benchwarmer on the Lakers, a 6th man, a second fiddle, a 1b, a star and now he's geriatric.

But as a second fiddle he was one of the best in the NBA(ca 2000 playoffs and a bit before), as a 1b he was an MVP candidate by himself on a team with an at that time better player, as a first option he put up stats that were unreal, single game, ppg, streaks etc. People forget too soon, how great he was, simply because he sucks now and is only in the NBA because of history and nothing else. Aside from his effiency, although his TS isn't that bad - 55% to Lebron's 58%, he put up good to great stat mosts of his career and so does and did Lebron. I think they're almost equal with a slightly advantage to Lebron.

There's no reason to discuss Dirk and Lebron. Dirk is one of my favs AT, but he's nowhere close to Lebron overall.

:applause:

[ReturnofJPR]

Dirk led his team to a Championship, LeBronze abandoned Cleveland to win with 2 other superstars. There's a difference. Dirk has more guts, will, and determination.

[IllegalD]

This is a terrible lists. I hope you commit Seppuku right now. Before you starts your own family, and spread stupidity in this world.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-14-2015/vyNnjt.gif


This little f*ggot telling someone over the internet to kill themselves yet he's the first to run to Jeff with his d*ck between his legs crying like a little b*tch to report anybody.

:yaohappy: :dancin

[aj1987]

You are the source lol..
whats 8 minus 6, divided by 8? 10 minus 7, divided by 10?

its all trivial, I dont need raw stats to say the above.. young Kobe was flat out better at closing games than peak Shaq, thats natural for a guard to be better at that than a center, but Shaq's FT liability was Wilt-esque, and definitely an extra impediment to his closing ability.
You said and I quote, "when they show Kobe was outscoring Shaq by 25-30% in every year they were matched prime for prime". Prove it. That being said, Shaq was still clutch. Not only that, he had a significantly larger impact on the defensive end than Kobe.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=398584&page=2

Go through that thread.

Also, Shaq got shit done in the first 3 quarters. Kobe was usually the one building castles with his bricks.

It's funny how much you Kobe kids disrespect Shaq.


Dirk led his team to a Championship, LeBronze abandoned Cleveland to win with 2 other superstars. There's a difference. Dirk has more guts, will, and determination.
Oh god, this retard is back.

What happened to those guts, will, and determination in '06 and '07, BTW?

[stalkerforlife]

Only trolls, including ESPN, claim Bran is an all time great.

True basketball fans know the collusions and stat padding are BS.

[AirBonner]

You said and I quote, "when they show Kobe was outscoring Shaq by 25-30% in every year they were matched prime for prime". Prove it. That being said, Shaq was still clutch. Not only that, he had a significantly larger impact on the defensive end than Kobe.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=398584&page=2

Go through that thread.

Also, Shaq got shit done in the first 3 quarters. Kobe was usually the one building castles with his bricks.

It's funny how much you Kobe kids disrespect Shaq.


Oh god, this retard is back.

What happened to those guts, will, and determination in '06 and '07, BTW?
takes a lot of guts to get payed millions for playing a game :lol

[rmt]

Lebron > Dirk (whose name doesn't really belong with the rest).

[Straight_Ballin]

Only trolls, including ESPN, claim Bran is an all time great.

True basketball fans know the collusions and stat padding are BS.

These true fans are the only fans that matter tbh. Any other opinion thinking Bran is an all time great is coming from the mouth of some 15-20 year old that doesn't know rice krispies from rat shit. Those are the non trolls that just don't know any better.

[ISHGoat]

lol nobody actually thinks OP is straight do they?

[pastis]

I like aj's ranking style with the >>>..

Imma give it a try.

LeBron > Shaq
LeBron >> Duncan
LeBron >>> Dirk
LeBron >>>> Kobe
LeBron >>>>> Garnett
LeBron >>>>>>>>>> Wade

yep:applause:

[pastis]

Lebron > Dirk (whose name doesn't really belong with the rest).

but kobe and KG:yaohappy:

[ArbitraryWater]

yep:applause:

I think that is the consensus among reasonable hoop heads :cheers:


but kobe and KG:yaohappy:

yep, I lold :lol