Law graduate suing law school because she can't find a job

[UK2K]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/07/business/dealbook/court-to-hear-suit-accusing-law-school-of-inflating-job-data.html?_r=0

Nearly a decade has passed since an aspiring young lawyer in California, Anna Alaburda, graduated in the top tier of her class, passed the state bar exam and set out to use the law degree she had spent about $150,000 to acquire.

But on Monday, in a San Diego courtroom, she will tell a story that has become all too familiar among law students in the United States: Since graduating from the Thomas Jefferson School of Law in 2008, she has yet to find a full-time salaried job as a lawyer.

From there, though, her story has taken an unusual twist: Ms. Alaburda, 37, is the first former law student whose case against a law school, charging that it inflated the employment data for its graduates as a way to lure students to enroll, will go to trial.

Other disgruntled students have tried to do the same. In the last several years, 15 lawsuits have sought to hold various law schools accountable for publicly listing information critics say was used to pump up alumni job numbers by counting part-time waitress and other similar, full-time jobs as employment. Only one suit besides Ms. Alaburda’s remains active.

None of the other cases reached trial because judges in Illinois, Michigan and New York, where several cases were filed, generally concluded that law students had opted for legal education at their own peril, and were sophisticated enough to have known that employment as a lawyer was not guaranteed.

But a California judge let Ms. Alaburda’s suit proceed, brushing aside efforts by the law school to derail her claims.

“It has taken five years,” said her lawyer, Brian A. Procel of Los Angeles. “But this will be the first time a law school will be on trial to defend its public employment figures.”

Ms. Alaburda’s day in court will take on added meaning: These will be her first public words after years of silence while she pursued a remedy for a legal education gone wrong.

She now has student debt of $170,000, with loan interest around 8 percent. Her law degree was not a ticket to a stable, well-paying career, but an expensive detour before she went on to work in a series of part-time positions, mostly temporary jobs reviewing documents for law firms.

As her debt mounted and her job prospects faltered, she filed a lawsuit in 2011, arguing that she would not have enrolled at Thomas Jefferson if she had known the law school’s statistics were misleading.


Thomas Jefferson, like other accused law schools, maintained that it filed only the data that the American Bar Association’s accrediting body required.

And judges largely agreed. Students would have to be “wearing blinders” not to see that a “goodly number of law school graduates toil (perhaps part time) in drudgery or have less than hugely successful careers,” Justice Melvin L. Schweitzer of New York Supreme Court wrote in 2012, dismissing a lawsuit by nine former students against New York Law School.

The nine had asked for $225 million in damages, on grounds that they had been misled by the school’s stated employment figures to believe they had rosier employment prospects than the job market actually offered.

The one lawsuit still pending, other than Ms. Alaburda’s, accuses Widener University School of Law, in Delaware, of posting employment data that included “any kind of job, no matter how unrelated to law.” A Federal District Court judge denied the case class-action status, and that decision is on appeal.

Judges in California, which has strong consumer protection laws, have offered more solace to the generation of lawyers who lost out in the legal market, allowing Ms. Alaburda and other plaintiffs there to go forward with claims.

So what do you think about this? Ignoring that she is arguing she chose her school based on their 'X% of student graduates find a job' slogan...

Is she right?

To me, their slogan (assuming the numbers are accurate) isn't false advertising. With a law degree, she could get a job somewhere, but in CA where lawyers are a dime a dozen, it may not be a job in law.

[NumberSix]

Depends what they promised her.

[HitandRun Reggie]

Going for a law degree has been risky for years and I'm sure she was aware of that. More supply than demand, and median income for new hires has dropped nearly 20% as well.

[JohnnySic]

I hope she wins. Degrees are largely bs.

[Im Still Ballin]

A bit pompous brat of her.

[Im Still Ballin]

225 million though? Jesus ****ing christ.

[Derka]

Buddy of mine sold shoes and worked part-time doing office stuff for a couple of years before he found work after passing the bar up here. Shit happens, lady. I worked in retail for nine years after finishing college.

[Velocirap31]

225 million though? Jesus ****ing christ.

They probably just ask for something ridiculous with the expectation that they'll settle for far less, but something reasonable. Seems like a common tactic.

[UK2K]

Buddy of mine sold shoes and worked part-time doing office stuff for a couple of years before he found work after passing the bar up here. Shit happens, lady. I worked in retail for nine years after finishing college.

But I thought a degree was an 'automatic job' pass?

She's stupid, no doubt. Not book stupid, but life stupid.

But, should law schools count graduates as 'finding a job in one year' if those jobs aren't law related? I think so. My buddy is about to graduate law school this spring, and he even said the way they word their employment statistics are bullshit.

[tmacattack33]

I'm all for the student vs the school.

Not only are schools using inflated stats like that, but the tuition is way too high.

This sh*t needs regulation.

[Draz]

Buddy of mine sold shoes and worked part-time doing office stuff for a couple of years before he found work after passing the bar up here. Shit happens, lady. I worked in retail for nine years after finishing college.
What degree? And what do you do now?

[Im Still Ballin]

I'm all for the student vs the school.

Not only are schools using inflated stats like that, but the tuition is way too high.

This sh*t needs regulation.
College is neither a privilege nor a right

[enayes]

Hmmm I was considering going back to school for a law degree. Might have to reconsider.

[Patrick Chewing]

I bet she's voting for Trump.

[Overdrive]

As with the peephole case: What's the basis for 225.000.000$? Doubt the lawschool told her that'd be the money that'd she'd earn until she was 37 years old. And if she was as good to be THE top lawyer in the country to warrant such a salary, well then there simply would be no case.

I'm aware that it's a tactic, as posted above, but no judge over here would let that case get to court with such a phantasy sum.

Also if the school stated 99% get a job post degree she could be very well be part of that 1%.

[Zach LaVine]

I kind of see her point if they used part time waitress jobs to count towards employment statistics. They need to find a way to accurately show what types of jobs students were hired for.

[falc39]

Lollllll, oh the irony. Also, counting part-time jobs as if they are real jobs is the norm these days, just ask Obama.

[KyrieTheFuture]

She's being a baby and the school is being dishonest. Shocking.

[UK2K]

As with the peephole case: What's the basis for 225.000.000$? Doubt the lawschool told her that'd be the money that'd she'd earn until she was 37 years old. And if she was as good to be THE top lawyer in the country to warrant such a salary, well then there simply would be no case.

I'm aware that it's a tactic, as posted above, but no judge over here would let that case get to court with such a phantasy sum.

Also if the school stated 99% get a job post degree she could be very well be part of that 1%.
The school also doesn't state what kind of jobs their graduates were working.

Basically, she's the kind of person who would sue the lottery after spending all her money on it before realizing your odds of winning are astronomical.

[Zach LaVine]

The school also doesn't state what kind of jobs their graduates were working.

Basically, she's the kind of person who would sue the lottery after spending all her money on it before realizing your odds of winning are astronomical.
What if they lied about their odds? Surely the lottery commissioners would need to be held accountable.

[Derka]

What degree? And what do you do now?
Degrees are poli-sci and philosophy. I currently work in municipal government...but without connections, its hard to get your foot in the door right away. I worked retail for a while to pay the bills and when I had a chance to get in with a contractor that did municipal work, I took it. From there, I sprung into an actual town job that I love.

[Draz]

Degrees are poli-sci and philosophy. I currently work in municipal government...but without connections, its hard to get your foot in the door right away. I worked retail for a while to pay the bills and when I had a chance to get in with a contractor that did municipal work, I took it. From there, I sprung into an actual town job that I love.
At least you're in the door now bro.

[Solidape]

225 million though? Jesus ****ing christ.

There was a correction by the paper I believe, she is suing for $125,000. The 225million was her joining another class action suit.

[Cap'n Obvious]

Some people do not get jobs related to their educational degrees.

[navy]

You sue high because you will only get rewarded the max you sued for but it can go down. Sometimes the jury/judge gets stupid and gives the client the full dollars even though the person never expected to see all that money. Also makes the person you are suing more likely to to settle out of fear the jury/judge are dumb as ****.

If Im in a lawsuit im bull shitting my way to 100 million damages praying I get like 1 million out of that.

[ISHGoat]

Thats because she went to a joke rated school. It's probably one of the worst in the country. And she wonders why she cant land a good full-time position? I dont see any grads from Harvard, Yale, etc complaining.

This is like studying BA in East Asian Geography from North ___ State University and expecting a 70k offer when you graduate.

[UK2K]

What if they lied about their odds? Surely the lottery commissioners would need to be held accountable.

Absolutely. That's why you'll find the odds of winning on every scratch off ticket, so they cover their bases.

The question is... when a law school claims a 99% employment rate one year after graduation, is including everybody who got a job in a non-law field considered being untruthful?

[Nick Young]

entitlement culture at its very worst. I can rant about these kinds of entitled assholes for days.


But in this case, I will not.


Karma will **** her in the end.

[Nick Young]

I bet she's voting for Trump.
More likely Hillary or Bernie.

Everyone is a special snowflake. Everyone with a degree is a super star who deserves an easy life and $100,000 a year job offers thrown at them on a daily basis. The world is a f*cking Disney movie in Libtard Bernie Clinton land.

[Zach LaVine]

Thats because she went to a joke rated school. It's probably one of the worst in the country. And she wonders why she cant land a good full-time position? I dont see any grads from Harvard, Yale, etc complaining.

This is like studying BA in East Asian Geography from North ___ State University and expecting a 70k offer when you graduate.
This is why it is more important for them to be honest with their hiring rates. If I were to go to a budget school that I won't get hired based on reputation, I would want to know my chances of actually getting a job. If they are misleading with their statistics, people may think that it is a wise investment because of cheaper tuition that will still lead to a job.

[masonanddixon]

I think someone needs to set a precedent. There's essentially a university-corporate complex now where uninversities control all the means to get any jobs but at the same time have made it impossible for anyone to get a job, and they take your money at exceedingly unfair tuition rates and interest.

It's not right. And you look at the Baby Boomers who simply needed to graduate ANY law school (which were generally very cheap back then) and they had a ticket to a 6 figure salary for life. There's essentially no restrictions on law schools in America right now in terms of enrollment and tuition capping and the schools have completely flooded the market and sold out this generation of attorneys or potential attorneys.

[UK2K]

This is why it is more important for them to be honest with their hiring rates. If I were to go to a budget school that I won't get hired based on reputation, I would want to know my chances of actually getting a job. If they are misleading with their statistics, people may think that it is a wise investment because of cheaper tuition that will still lead to a job.

So, should they be allowed to include all graduates who find employment, or just graduates who find employment in the law field?

Like I mentioned, my friend is about to graduate law school in a few weeks, and he said UL does the same thing.

He also said that school has a pretty terrible bar passage rate.

[DeuceWallaces]

These lawsuits are retarded, but schools should be mandated to report only hires that are reasonably within their respective field.

And to those saying degrees are worthless unless they come from top rated programs; you're being naive. Degrees are worth every penny. Every field is currently saturated, but it's up to you to market yourself from there. Specifically your will to constantly write cover letters, improve your technical writing, your cv, your marketable skill set, be willing to move, etc. You can advance your career quite easily from Southern Illinois or some other smaller state school.

[plowking]

I hope she wins. Degrees are largely bs.

What a crock of shit.

This whole law suit screams America. Seriously.

Every one of these borderline spastic cases comes from America. I remember the case of those girls suing McDonalds as well... you know the shit makes you fat, and then you want to sue someone because you eat it and it makes you fat?

Responsibility and being liable for your own actions has gone out the window. Sue everyone and everything.

I think one comedian brought up that we're the only animal that helps the weakest and dumbest, and fair enough, we have all the tools to do this to a point. But it isn't even helping anymore, it is simply rewarding the dumbest.

[bdreason]

When I was in College (late 90's, early 2k's), it was crazy affordable, and EVERYONE was getting degrees. I had friends/roommates in College that were borderline retarded, and they were passing their business classes with ease. An educational degree doesn't mean much when you give them out to everyone. Bachelor degrees are so common now, they've actually created a new glass ceiling for everyone who doesn't have one. A Bachelors degree today is what a High School diploma was in the 90's... only a lot more expensive.

[masonanddixon]

What a crock of shit.

This whole law suit screams America. Seriously.

Every one of these borderline spastic cases comes from America. I remember the case of those girls suing McDonalds as well... you know the shit makes you fat, and then you want to sue someone because you eat it and it makes you fat?

Responsibility and being liable for your own actions has gone out the window. Sue everyone and everything.

I think one comedian brought up that we're the only animal that helps the weakest and dumbest, and fair enough, we have all the tools to do this to a point. But it isn't even helping anymore, it is simply rewarding the dumbest.


You're completely wrong about life as usual.

And hilarious when an Australian goes on about American entitlement. This is a country where people will literally will complain about a $10 co-payment on a medication that would cost an American thousands of dollars out of pocket, where educations are nearly universally free, and where you are entitled to every handout, benefit, and welfare in existence.

The American university system is worse than Wall Street corporate fraud, and something needs to be done. These universities are run by Presidents making salaries in excess of a million dollars and are bankrolling it all on people's hopes in maybe being able to get a job by going through the necessary education.

If you can't perceive how the university system is actually evil, then you're more inept that I initially thought.

[DukeDelonte13]

there was a lawyer bubble that burst shortly after the great recession.

Law schools were letting way too many people in and promising 85%+ employment figures post graduation however a lot of schools didn't say whether or not those were actually legal jobs or good quality jobs.

The top top top cream of the crop students usually get judicial clerkships, maybe a small handful out of the class. Then the big firm hires, then the government hires (prosecutor, pub defender), then small firm/solo.

so what happened was that during the recession big firms started mass layoffs and weren't hiring, and governments went into hiring freezes and didn't take anyone. That left everyone who wanted a "job" to fight to work at small firms.

Small law firms generally will pay something like 40k a year with little to no benefits and work you 60+ hours a week. Sh*t was CRAZY. Plenty still do that. I think at my class of about 155 grads like MAYBE 15-25 people including those that went solo got legal work their first year out.


I went in knowing I wanted to practice criminal law and fully expecting to go off on my own. I specifically interned and externed at places that provided me with legit practical experience and I hit the ground running. My first year out was rough but now everything is fine.

Bottom line is too many people wanted to sit behind a desk and collect a paycheck with benefits. Most law students say they wanna do "business law" and don't want to be in court mixing it up. Most have no intention or inclination to use their degree on their own. i get it, i wasn't married and didn't have any kids so I had the financial freedom to eat a tough year. A lot of people don't go in with the right mentality to make money. Law is a real cutthroat industry. It's 90% running a business and 10% law. You gotta deal with assh*les stealing clients, clients not paying bills, being on your own for healthcare, personalities with ridiculous quirks on the bench in robes, court staffers that have the IQ of grapefruits, etc.

It's not for everyone. You gotta be thick skinned and you can't be a wuss who wants everything handed to them. You gotta be prepared to make your own money.

[UK2K]

When I was in College (late 90's, early 2k's), it was crazy affordable, and EVERYONE was getting degrees. I had friends/roommates in College that were borderline retarded, and they were passing their business classes with ease. An educational degree doesn't mean much when you give them out to everyone. Bachelor degrees are so common now, they've actually created a new glass ceiling for everyone who doesn't have one. A Bachelors degree today is what a High School diploma was in the 90's... only a lot more expensive.

That's the way it is now...

Standards have been lowered so EVERYONE can get a degree if they just show up to class.

[QUOTE]By one measure, Berea, with more than 1,000 pupils, is helping more students succeed than ever: The graduation rate, below 65 percent just four years ago, has jumped to more than 80 percent.

But that does not necessarily mean that all of Berea