Tell me a player whos had worse Finals help than LeBron

[Ranked 12th]

Only criteria, they have had to have played in more than 3 Finals

[SouBeachTalents]

From a post I made in a similar thread


2011 he had great help, Wade played very well
2012 he had good help
2013 he had decent help (in b4 Ray Allen)

'07, '14, & '15 his supporting cast was terrible

And as for the OP, Hakeem would have an argument

[Spurs m8]

2/6

[Ranked 12th]

From a post I made in a similar thread



And as for the OP, Hakeem would have an argument

Didnt Hakeem only play in 3 Finals?


The criteria is more than 3 Finals



3 or less Finals is too small a sample size

[Ranked 12th]

From a post I made in a similar thread



And as for the OP, Hakeem would have an argument

Btw in what world 2013 decent help?


Wade averaged 19.6 points, and was nonexistent in every game except Games 4 and 7 in the Finals. Statistically the Heat were better without him in Game 6 and Game 2



Bosh averaged 11.9 points in the Finals, including 0 points in Game 7



How is that 'decent'? What is the benchmark you're using to consider it decent or not?

[WayOfWade]

Btw in what world 2013 decent help?


Wade averaged 19.6 points, and was nonexistent in every game except Games 4 and 7 in the Finals. Statistically the Heat were better without him in Game 6 and Game 2



Bosh averaged 11.9 points in the Finals, including 0 points in Game 7



How is that 'decent'? What is the benchmark you're using to consider it decent or not?
Are you saying 19/4/5 on .476 shooting isn't solid for a second option? And it's not act like Battier, Miller and Allen were not all at least decent for a perimeter rotation. Chalmers came out and averaged double digit scoring with 40% from beyond the arc. Certainly it's better than the mediocrity that surrounded him in 07' 14' and 15', thus making it decent, separating it from the bad.

[WayOfWade]

Also, I noticed how you added in 3 finals appearances to fit your agenda and make Olajuwon ineligible, nice touch

[SouBeachTalents]

Btw in what world 2013 decent help?


Wade averaged 19.6 points, and was nonexistent in every game except Games 4 and 7 in the Finals. Statistically the Heat were better without him in Game 6 and Game 2



Bosh averaged 11.9 points in the Finals, including 0 points in Game 7



How is that 'decent'? What is the benchmark you're using to consider it decent or not?

Wade had a monster Game 4, imo outplayed LeBron in Game 5 and put up 23/10 in Game 7. After being terrible for the whole playoffs he stepped up when the Heat needed him.

You can certainly criticize him for his bagel in Game 7, but Bosh was averaging 14/9/2/2/2 on 49% through the first 6 games, and grabbed the season saving rebound in Game 6.

There's also Allen hitting the biggest shot in NBA history, Chalmers stepping up in Games 2 & 6, and Battier hitting 6 big 3's in Game 7.

[Ranked 12th]

Also, I noticed how you added in 3 finals appearances to fit your agenda and make Olajuwon ineligible, nice touch

What agenda? 3 Finals is too small a sample size


So you wanna include one hit wonders like Hakeem, Dirk, Billups etc?







Even if you wanna include them, none of them had supporting casts as bad as LeBrons 07, 13, 14, 15 teams

[IllegalD]

Will someone please ban this sad little f*ggot already? :facepalm

[WayOfWade]

What agenda? 3 Finals is too small a sample size


So you wanna include one hit wonders like Hakeem, Dirk, Billups etc?







Even if you wanna include them, none of them had supporting casts as bad as LeBrons 07, 13, 14, 15 teams
Your agenda is just trying to prop up LeBron and spam this board, thus making it the mess it is today. And those are horrible examples, Billups had a great supporting cast, and specifically Olajuwon's 94' cast was worse than 13' Bron's (his second leading scorer was Vernon Maxwell at 13.4 ppg). Dirk had a good cast too, no all-stars but they were a well-oiled machine.
LeBron however has had some of the worst finals casts of all-time though, that is un-arguable. Specifically 07' and 15' with 14' being a close third. You however are particularly hung up on 2013 even though it was clearly a notch above the rest.
A good question though would be which finals supporting cast is worse than what LeBron had in 2015? I honestly think that might be the worst, and they still almost won

[warriorfan]

Dirk raped LeBron with a big 3 of himself, Tyson Chandler, and Jason Terry

Let that sink in for a moment

[Ranked 12th]

Your agenda is just trying to prop up LeBron and spam this board, thus making it the mess it is today. And those are horrible examples, Billups had a great supporting cast, and specifically Olajuwon's 94' cast was worse than 13' Bron's (his second leading scorer was Vernon Maxwell at 13.4 ppg). Dirk had a good cast too, no all-stars but they were a well-oiled machine.



Did any of those players have to play teams like the '07, '13, '14 Spurs, or the '15 Warriors?

Its all about context, its okay having a 13 ppg 2nd option if you face a scrub team, not so much when you're literally going up against dynasties every season.



None of the people you mentioned ever faced a legendary team in the Finals

[SouBeachTalents]

There are several Finals supporting casts I can think of that were either worse than or comparable to LeBron's in '13. Just from the 2000's
Shaq in '00
Iverson in '01
Duncan & Kidd in '03
Wade & Dirk in '06
Kobe in '08
Dirk in '11

[coin24]

Not many finals teams have had as much help as bran has had over the years..
Especially his cav teams when he quit on them.. His fault they didn't even make the finals as 60 win teams, pathetic..

07 wasn't solely his fault but he still underperformed. The rest he had more than enough help to win

If he needs more than one other 20ppg scorer he's not the alpha of his team.

[Ranked 12th]

There are several Finals supporting casts I can think of that were either worse than or comparable to LeBron's in '13. Just from the 2000's
Shaq in '00
Iverson in '01
Duncan & Kidd in '03
Wade & Dirk in '06
Kobe in '08
Dirk in '11

Except LeBron faced a better team than any of them did (expect maybe '01 A.I) :confusedshrug:

[IllegalD]

There are several Finals supporting casts I can think of that were either worse than or comparable to LeBron's in '13. Just from the 2000's
Shaq in '00
Iverson in '01
Duncan & Kidd in '03
Wade & Dirk in '06
Kobe in '08
Dirk in '11


ETH.


ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :hammertime: :yaohappy:

[SouBeachTalents]

Except LeBron faced a better team than any of them did (expect maybe '01 A.I) :confusedshrug:

Not Kobe in '08?

[IllegalD]

Except LeBron faced a better team than any of them did (expect maybe '01 A.I) :confusedshrug:

So now it's about finals competition and not supporting cast like your title says?

That ether got you SHOOK, flip flopping worse than LeBron on where he wants to play. :banana:

[knicksman]

Title should be worse finals than lebron. I would say none

[coin24]

hope you're better at suicide than you are at trolling Simon

[Ranked 12th]

If he needs more than one other 20ppg scorer he's not the alpha of his team.

He only had a 20 ppg scorer in 2 of his Finals


Kobe has had one in all 7 of his :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

He only had a 20 ppg scorer in 2 of his Finals


Kobe has had one in all 7 of his :lol

Blatant lie :lol

[Gileraracer]

He chose the stars to play with so it's his fault.

Name another one that colluded twice with 2 top 10 players in the league and still managed to loose 4 finals

[Overdrive]

So you're trying to change the narrative from teamed up with 2 all/super stars to least help ever?

The part about 2013 is especially irritating as it was Wade's contribution that prevented the Spurs from getting a 3-1 advantage.

Also the whole Miami team was contributing, and before G6 and G7 James wasn't really playing FMVP worthy. The Ray Allen three isn't only for troll purposes. It changed the series and narrative for Lebron. It was a forgetable series before that in the mold of '07 and '11. He had 1 outburst scoringwise, but his impact was low.

Without the top notch cast in '13 he would've gone down as a career loser not even ESPN can deflect from. He used his chance in G6 OT and G7 to show the world he's better than that.

[Papaya Petee]

Wade averaged 27/7/5/2/1 on 54% FG in 2011
23/6/5/2/1 in 2012
20/5/4/2/1 in 2013

How are those bad 2nd option numbers?

[Ranked 12th]

Wade averaged 27/7/5/2/1 on 54% FG in 2011
23/6/5/2/1 in 2012
20/5/4/2/1 in 2013

How are those bad 2nd option numbers?

2013 was pretty bad, don't kid yourself bro, stop looking at numbers.





I could say LeBron didnt play bad in 2011 cause he averaged 18/7/7 on 47%, but you Heat stans wouldnt agree.

[Overdrive]

2013 was pretty bad, don't kid yourself bro, stop looking at numbers.


Yeah. Stop looking at the numbers. Wade killed the Spurs in a pivotal game 4. Chalmers had a good game in G2 when Lebron showed signs of '11. Without Ray Allen in G6 Lebron doesn't have a good G6 OT and great G7. It would've been '11 all over.

[Ranked 12th]

. Without Ray Allen in G6 Lebron doesn't have a good G6


Just stop it bro, you're embarassing yourself


This statement itself is the dumbest thing I've seen.

If LeBron didn't hit the clutch 3 before Ray Allen's, Ray isn't even in an opportunity to tie the game.

We can go on and on with "If ... didn't do ..."

You see? Anyone can play that game






Fact of the matter is Wade was mediocre.

[Overdrive]

Just stop it bro, you're embarassing yourself


This statement itself is the dumbest thing I've seen.

If LeBron didn't hit the clutch 3 before Ray Allen's, Ray isn't even in an opportunity to tie the game.

We can go on and on with "If ... didn't do ..."

You see? Anyone can play that game



Fact of the matter is Wade was mediocre.


Lebron fumbled the ball several times in the 4th quarter...no what ifs. Wade was great in G4, Chalmers good in G2, Ray Allen hit a season saving 3 in G6. Those are no what ifs. Lebron's series up to that point wasn't even FMVP worthy. What happened afterwards made his case and that's no what if either.
But way to go taking 1 half sentence out of context.

[Ranked 12th]

Lebron fumbled the ball several times in the 4th quarter...

Fine where was Wade in that 4th quarter?

LeBron scored 16 points and a number of assists in that 4th quarter




Seems like you're artificially holding LeBron to a higher standard

[Overdrive]

Fine where was Wade in that 4th quarter?

LeBron scored 16 points and a number of assists in that 4th quarter




Seems like you're artificially holding LeBron to a higher standard

A team isn't made up by two players. He had enough help in those games, but as long as you only quote bits of my posts and keep ignoring the rest it's useless to discuss anything with you.

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

http://i.snag.gy/pwQWb.jpg

[SamuraiSWISH]

2007 - Poor Help
2011 - Great Help
2012 - Good Help
2013 - Good Help
2014 - Decent Help
2015 - Poor Help

[Ranked 12th]

2007 - Poor Help
2011 - Great Help
2012 - Good Help
2013 - Good Help
2014 - Decent Help
2015 - Poor Help

:biggums:


What qualifies as 'decent'?

[SamuraiSWISH]

:biggums:


What qualifies as 'decent'?
He had caliber of players capable enough to make the games competitive as a unit. They were decent. Far from poor like the 2007 and 2015 Cavs. Significant difference. That's what I qualify as being decent.

[Ranked 12th]

He had caliber of players capable enough to make the games competitive as a unit. They were decent. Far from poor like the 2007 and 2015 Cavs. Significant difference. That's what I qualify as being decent.

I'd argue Mosgov in 2015 was better than 2014 Finals Wade


and TT and Delly's defense + hustle were more valuable than whatever Bosh did



It was the largest beatdown in Finals history with LeBron averaging 28 ppg on 68% TS



His teammates were horrendous, just admit it

[Mr. Jabbar]

bran needs more halp! :lol :lol

[34-24 Footwork]

Has anyone besides myself actually looked at the margins of victory in games 1-4 of the 2007 finals??

EVERY GAME WINNABLE. I can make the argument that Lebron was one of the key reasons for every loss, as well.

[Ranked 12th]

Has anyone besides myself actually looked at the margins of victory in games 1-4 of the 2007 finals??

EVERY GAME WINNABLE. I can make the argument that Lebron was one of the key reasons for every loss, as well.


Yup cause your a dumbass that watches box scores



Damon Jones hit a buzzer beater 3 that didn't matter in the last second of Game 4 to make it a one possession game


Game 3 Varejao had a clutch turnover that lost the game. LeBron also got fouled on the last 3

[34-24 Footwork]

Yup cause your a dumbass that watches box scores



Damon Jones hit a buzzer beater 3 that didn't matter in the last second of Game 4 to make it a one possession game


Game 3 Varejao had a clutch turnover that lost the game. LeBron also got fouled on the last 3

You're right. Lebron's 6 TOs per game helped their cause.

Ironically, a fakkit that uses VORP to justify how Lebron James is a great basketball player accuses someone else of watching boxscores :lol

[Ranked 12th]

You're right. Lebron's 6 TOs per game helped their cause.

Ironically, a fakkit that uses VORP to justify how Lebron James is a great basketball player accuses someone else of watching boxscores :lol

When??

Meltdown :lol

[ballinhun8]

I'd argue Mosgov in 2015 was better than 2014 Finals Wade


and TT and Delly's defense + hustle were more valuable than whatever Bosh did



It was the largest beatdown in Finals history with LeBron averaging 28 ppg on 68% TS



His teammates were horrendous, just admit it


His stats were empty. Just admit it.



He played right into Pop's plan. Let lebron get his and make everyone else beat you. It's what he did in 03 vs the Lakers and Shaq. It's what the Pistons did to the Lakers the next year.

[Blue&Orange]

It was the largest beatdown in Finals history with LeBron averaging 28 ppg on 68% TS
That happens when the star of your team has ZERO impact while the game is competitive and only shows up in garbage time, shamefully statpadding against Matt Boner.


Why are talking about the help of they guy that had the most disgraceful finals appearances of the last decades?

[Ranked 12th]

That happens when the star of your team has ZERO impact while the game is competitive


So what happened in Game 2?? How did the Heat win??

[Black and White]

Except LeBron faced a better team than any of them did (expect maybe '01 A.I) :confusedshrug:

The Celtics in 08? I dunno, I think they were pretty good aye.

I've also noticed you keep adding to your criteria to remove names that are being brought up, give up Dubeta.

[Ranked 12th]

The Celtics in 08? I dunno, I think they were pretty good aye.

I've also noticed you keep adding to your criteria to remove names that are being brought up, give up Dubeta.

Only criteria is making more than 3 Finals :confusedshrug:


And who's Dubeta?

[Black and White]

Only criteria is making more than 3 Finals :confusedshrug:


And who's Dubeta?

You said if people want to include Hakeem, Dirk, Iverson etc. then you have to start looking at the strength of the teams they played against.

Just stop it, you're making yourself look like more and more of an idiot.

[Ranked 12th]

You said if people want to include Hakeem, Dirk, Iverson etc. then you have to start looking at the strength of the teams they played against.

Just stop it, you're making yourself look like more and more of an idiot.

None of them played more than 3 Finals

Try again bud, only 1 rule

[Black and White]

None of them played more than 3 Finals

Try again bud, only 1 rule

Must hurt you to know LeBron has had more than enough help to win more than 2 rings, thats really why you made this thread, pure damage control.

[Ranked 12th]

ad hominems

keep trying bro :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's '64 Warriors.

Basically the same exact roster that went 31-49 the year before, except they added rookie Nate Thurmond, who played part-time, and out of position.

And his two HOF teammates were Guy Rodgers and Nate Thurmond. Oh, and in the Finals, Thurmond shot .326 from the field, while Rodgers shot .258.

Oh, and one more thing...Chamberlain's Warriors faced the Celtics and their EIGHT HOFers in that Finals.

[ballinhun8]

Didnt Hakeem only play in 3 Finals?


The criteria is more than 3 Finals



3 or less Finals is too small a sample size


How is that a small sample size??!! Hakeem played in 18 Finals games. That's a good sample size unless you're trying to fit an agenda.

[Ranked 12th]

How is that a small sample size??!! Hakeem played in 18 Finals games. That's a good sample size unless you're trying to fit an agenda.

So you can't think of anyone else who fits the criteria???

Stay mad

[LAZERUSS]

How is that a small sample size??!! Hakeem played in 18 Finals games. That's a good sample size unless you're trying to fit an agenda.

Hakeem's '94 supporting cast was no less talented than Ewing's in the Finals.