LeBron Making His Teammates Great?

[AirTupac]

http://i68.tinypic.com/n5pn51.jpg

[Akrazotile]

Making His Teammates Great, AGAIN.

[Im Still Ballin]

Making His Teammates Great, AGAIN.
"All I do Is Win"

[PP34Deuce]

http://i68.tinypic.com/n5pn51.jpg

This isn't a good example. Irving scores about the same percentage with our without Lebron. With Lebron out of the game, of course he will take 20 plus shots. they all sacrifice shots when they play.

Irving is ball dominant and refuses to play off ball. If he were a better playmaker than Lebron, you'd see Lebron actually be more off the ball but he's not. Guarantee if Lebron had Chris Paul or even a Rondo, you'd see him play off the ball more due to a equal or superior ball handler.

[34-24 Footwork]

This isn't a good example. Irving scores about the same percentage with our without Lebron. With Lebron out of the game, of course he will take 20 plus shots. they all sacrifice shots when they play.

Irving is ball dominant and refuses to play off ball. If he were a better playmaker than Lebron, you'd see Lebron actually be more off the ball but he's not. Guarantee if Lebron had Chris Paul or even a Rondo, you'd see him play off the ball more due to a equal or superior ball handler.

"If, If, If...."

Ever wonder why no "traditional" PG has ever played with Lebron? Let's start there :D

[aj1987]

"If, If, If...."

Ever wonder why no "traditional" PG has ever played with Lebron? Let's start there :D
His first 7 season, the Cleveland rosters sucked ass. Miami didn't have a "traditional" PG. Irving is an undersized SG.

[34-24 Footwork]

His first 7 season, the Cleveland rosters sucked ass. Miami didn't have a "traditional" PG. Irving is an undersized SG.

Gotcha :lol :lol

[34-24 Footwork]

Thread recap so far....

We'll never see Lebron play off ball in his career because he hasn't played, and will never play, with a traditional PG.

[Fudge]

Too many posters melting down ITT.

It's too early in the morning for this.

[aj1987]

Thread recap so far....

We'll never see Lebron play off ball in his career because he hasn't played, and will never play, with a traditional PG.
LeBron's not really an elite off-ball player. :confusedshrug:

[Lebronxrings]

meltdown

[PP34Deuce]

"If, If, If...."

Ever wonder why no "traditional" PG has ever played with Lebron? Let's start there :D

I would say a lot of it has to do with him. High expectations for players because of his abilities. Is it egotistical? absolutely, I watch CAV games and other than his handle, lebron doesn't trust Kyrie with playmaking duties.

I've seen him give Love the ball at the high post and look to move off ball a little more. No surprise that Love is a better passer and decision maker than Irving.

[dubnation]

25.5 FGA per 36 :roll:

Dude is selfish and has extreme tunnel vision. He's a talented scorer but his game is more suited for Rucker Park than it is for championship basketball (at least as a 1st option).

[Jacks3]

Irving is ball dominant and refuses to play off ball. If he were a better playmaker than Lebron, you'd see Lebron actually be more off the ball but he's not. Guarantee if Lebron had Chris Paul or even a Rondo, you'd see him play off the ball more due to a equal or superior ball handler.

LeBron is even more ball-dominant, does nothing but stand around when he doesn't have the ball, and is one of the worst shooters in the league. At least Irving can space the floor when he's not on-ball. LBJ and somebody like Rondo would be a terrible fit.

[Ranked 12th]

Irving is not even a top 5 PG in the East



Let's just leave it at that

[Fire Colangelo]

Irving is not even a top 5 PG in the East



Let's just leave it at that


Since he started playing with LeBron

[Rooster]

Lebron is known as unselfish player who is playmaker and a willing passer but but but how come most of his teammates just don't have their best years playing beside him.:rolleyes:

[sd3035]

made Wade look like superman here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4eWAU9Z1Oc&spfreload=1

[Ranked 12th]

Lebron is known as unselfish player who is playmaker and a willing passer but but but how come most of his teammates just don't have their best years playing beside him.:rolleyes:

Wade '10 before LeBron: 26ppg on 49%

Wade '11 with LeBron: 25ppg on 50%


Wade '14 with LeBron: 20ppg on 54%

Wade '15 without LeBron: 21ppg on 46%



Irving '14 without LeBron: 20ppg on 43%

Irving '15 with LeBron: 21ppg on 47%




It seems players genrally play a bit better with LeBron than without :confusedshrug:

Its even more apparent when you consider, that both Irving and Wade went from 1st options to second options with LeBron, yet they still put up slightly better stats.



All evidence point to LeBron significantly enhancing teammate productivity.

[G.U.S.]

Wade '10 before LeBron: 26ppg on 49%

Wade '11 with LeBron: 25ppg on 50%


Wade '14 with LeBron: 20ppg on 54%

Wade '15 without LeBron: 21ppg on 46%



Irving '14 without LeBron: 20ppg on 43%

Irving '15 with LeBron: 21ppg on 47%




It seems players genrally play a bit better with LeBron than without :confusedshrug:

Its even more apparent when you consider, that both Irving and Wade went from 1st options to second options with LeBron, yet they still put up slightly better stats.



All evidence point to LeBron significantly enhancing teammate productivity.sonned him:applause:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Lebron 14 playoffs FG% = 56.5%

Lebron 15 playoffs FG% = 41.7%


looks like guys like Wade and Bosh really helped Lebron's efficiency

-16% difference in FG% has to be one of the biggest one year drop offs in history for playoff efficiency of a guy still in his prime . Both were finals trips too so the volume of games played is about the same

[Ranked 12th]

Lebron 14 playoffs FG% = 56.5%

Lebron 15 playoffs FG% = 41.7%


looks like guys like Wade and Bosh really helped Lebron's efficiency

-16% difference in FG% has to be one of the biggest one year drop offs in history for playoff efficiency of a guy still in his prime . Both were finals trips too so the volume of games played is about the same

He dropped 16% in efficiency yet it still matches Kobe :roll: :roll:


Kinda tells you the talent difference between them.

[Rooster]

Wade '10 before LeBron: 26ppg on 49%

Wade '11 with LeBron: 25ppg on 50%


Wade '14 with LeBron: 20ppg on 54%

Wade '15 without LeBron: 21ppg on 46%



Irving '14 without LeBron: 20ppg on 43%

Irving '15 with LeBron: 21ppg on 47%




It seems players genrally play a bit better with LeBron than without :confusedshrug:

Its even more apparent when you consider, that both Irving and Wade went from 1st options to second options with LeBron, yet they still put up slightly better stats.



All evidence point to LeBron significantly enhancing teammate productivity.

Wade was past his prime with too many injuries to boot. Let me know his stats before Lebron hop in and when he won that chip.:confusedshrug:

[ImKobe]

Irving takes more shots and is more efficient with Lebron out because he's used to having the ball in his hands and not being a spot-up shooter. Cavs need to make sure Irving gets his share of ball-handling duties or otherwise Lebron ball loses again

Irving is shooting worse and has a lower PER than his rookie season...1 double-double for the entire year, so much for Lebron making his teammates better :kobe:

[Bankaii]

Wade was past his prime with too many injuries to boot. Let me know his stats before Lebron hop in and when he won that chip.:confusedshrug:
2010 RS Wade: 27/5/7 on 48%, 20 FGA.
2011 RS Wade: 26/6/5 on 50%, 18 FGA.

So where are those major drop in stats to pre-injury Wade?

Wade had his 3 most efficient seasons with Lebron, but that always gets glossed over.

[Ranked 12th]

Irving takes more shots and is more efficient with Lebron out because he's used to having the ball in his hands and not being a spot-up shooter. Cavs need to make sure Irving gets his share of ball-handling duties or otherwise Lebron ball loses again

Irving is shooting worse and has a lower PER than his rookie season...1 double-double for the entire year, so much for Lebron making his teammates better :kobe:

How were Karl Malone, Dwight Howard, and Nash before/after Kobe?


I just proved Irving and Wade were slightly better with LeBron than without, prove the same for your boy 12be

[Bankaii]

Irving takes more shots and is more efficient with Lebron out because he's used to having the ball in his hands and not being a spot-up shooter. Cavs need to make sure Irving gets his share of ball-handling duties or otherwise Lebron ball loses again

Irving is shooting worse and has a lower PER than his rookie season...1 double-double for the entire year, so much for Lebron making his teammates better :kobe:
You obviously don't watch Cavs games.

Kyrie is far from a spot up shooter. Most of the time he over dribbles trying to create his own shot.

And I'm sure his injuries this season and rough start have nothing to do with his numbers being worse right?:rolleyes:

Why don't you mention Kyrie's season last year? It was by far the best season of his career. I'm sure Lebron had nothing to do with that either right?

Kobetards just spout random bullshit, it never gets old

[Rooster]

2010 RS Wade: 27/5/7 on 48%, 20 FGA.
2011 RS Wade: 26/6/5 on 50%, 18 FGA.

So where are those major drop in stats to pre-injury Wade?

Wade had his 3 most efficient seasons with Lebron, but that always gets glossed over.

So you're taking Wade best season with Lebron to suit your argument .:rolleyes: Let's go by your logic. How about when Wade put up 30/5/8 on 49% or when he won a ring with 27/6/7 on 50% . Which one to you look better?:confusedshrug:

[hiphopfan777]

Nash was injured his foot he hurt karl malone hurt knee. Hiward had bCk surgery no fault of kobe bryant

[Ranked 12th]

Nash was injured his foot he hurt karl malone hurt knee. Hiward had bCk surgery no fault of kobe bryant

Wade injured knee, Bosh abdomen injury 2012, Irvinig fractured knee no fault of lebron :confusedshrug:

[riseagainst]

I guess lebron just isn't the type of player that makes his teammates better like ESPN says he does. These stats sure are proof of that.

[Rooster]

How were Karl Malone, Dwight Howard, and Nash before/after Kobe?


I just proved Irving and Wade were slightly better with LeBron than without, prove the same for your boy 12be

Most of Kobe teammates have their best playing with him. Even Smush, Chucky Atkins, Mihm, Kwame all look like decent starters playing with Kobe.

[nba_55]

So you're taking Wade best season with Lebron to suit your argument .:rolleyes: Let's go by your logic. How about when Wade put up 30/5/8 on 49% or when he won a ring with 27/6/7 on 50% . Which one to you look better?:confusedshrug:

He took Wade's stats just before lebron joined him and his stats when Lebron just joined him. What's wrong with that?

[SouBeachTalents]

Nash was injured his foot he hurt karl malone hurt knee. Hiward had bCk surgery no fault of kobe bryant

A post that truly makes me wonder if the poster has down syndrome

[Bankaii]

So you're taking Wade best season with Lebron to suit your argument .:rolleyes: Let's go by your logic. How about when Wade put up 30/5/8 on 49% or when he won a ring with 27/6/7 on 50% . Which one to you look better?:confusedshrug:
Except that's not how it works when factoring in Wade's decline idiot.

2006 and 2009 were Wade's 2 best seasons, but they don't account for the injuries Wade had between those seasons and 2011.

2010 was the last decently healthy season before joining Lebron, and 2011 was the first season we saw Wade and Lebron together. Why would you not use those 2 seasons?

And after 2011 Wade began to decline, so why use any of those seasons?
You're wrong dude, just hold the L and move along.

[riseagainst]

Nash was injured his foot he hurt karl malone hurt knee. Hiward had bCk surgery no fault of kobe bryant


dafuq did i just read?

:biggums:

[ImKobe]

How were Karl Malone, Dwight Howard, and Nash before/after Kobe?


I just proved Irving and Wade were slightly better with LeBron than without, prove the same for your boy 12be

lol Karl Malone was in his last year after like 20 seasons with the Jazz, Nash was basically injured for his entire Laker career, Howard came in post back surgery and actually had a decent year playing next to Kobe

Odom was 6th man of the year with Kobe, gets dumped to make room for the CP3 trade that got vetoed and sucked in Dallas, turned into a drug addict

Andrew Bynum was an all-star starter for West in 2012 and was considered to be the best big in the league next to Dwight, had a triple-double in the Playoffs with 10 blocks and was an all-around beast until he got traded from LA and never took the game seriously again

Pau won 2 rings and had his most efficient year playing with Kobe...0 - 16 in the Playoffs despite having teams that won 50 games in Memphis before being traded to LA and going to 3 straight Finals

Bosh, Wade, Love, Irving's numbers declined when they got with Lebron because Bran dominates the ball all game. Kobe took a lot of shots but once he had good players around him he played unselfishly and was successful because of it.

[Rooster]

Except that's not how it works when factoring in Wade's decline idiot.

2006 and 2009 were Wade's 2 best seasons, but they don't account for the injuries Wade had between those seasons and 2011.

2010 was the last decently healthy season before joining Lebron, and 2011 was the first season we saw Wade and Lebron together. Why would you not use those 2 seasons?

And after 2011 Wade began to decline, so why use any of those seasons?
You're wrong dude, just hold the L and move along.

So when he played 79 games, the most in his his career and played the most minutes and put up career high number, he was not healthy enough:rolleyes:
Nikka please:oldlol:

[aj1987]

Bosh, Wade, Love, Irving's numbers declined when they got with Lebron because Bran dominates the ball all game. Kobe took a lot of shots but once he had good players around him he played unselfishly and was successful because of it.
Bosh, Wade, Irving, and almost everyone who plays with LeBron has their most efficient seasons while playing WITH LeBron. Also, you want to apply context to Malone, Payton, Nash, etc. playing with Kobe, ignore the FACT that Wade, Love, Irving, Bosh, etc. were constantly injured when playing with LeBron. If LeBron marginalizes his teammates, Kobe does it at an ATG level. Turning HOF'ers into scrubs/forcing them into retirement.

Kobe played unselfishly? Dude is the definition of selfishness. If you look up the word ball-hog, you're gonna find a picture of Kobe next to it.

[3ball]

Irving is ball dominant and refuses to play off ball.



It's suboptimal for Lebron to play point guard from the forward position... You should be aware that all point guards have:


1) Low assisted rates (teammates rarely throw point guards an assist because they score off-the-dribble without needing a pass)

2) High time of possession (they have the ball in their hands a long time each game).


However, Lebron's point guard style has a different impact than regular point guards because he starts AT FORWARD, not point guard.

By turning the forward position into a SECOND point guard position that has low assisted rate and high time of possession, teammates have less opportunity to assist and time with the ball compared to other teams whose forwards have NORMAL assisted rates and time of possession.





Irving scores about the same percentage with our without Lebron.



Lebron turns his teammates into play-finishers - he reduces their APG (playmaking), while increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):


................................................AP G, ASSIST %....... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting) <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)..................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)..................31.9% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting)
Irving with... Lebron.. (2015):..... 5.0 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 25.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................32.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 10.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................55.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced) ...................71.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game), 13.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced)..................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
Love with ...Lebron (15'-16'):...... 2.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 11.4% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................80.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game), 30.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced)..................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game), 22.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced)..................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)


FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)


Unfortunately, by reducing teammates to play-finishers, Lebron promotes a sophomoric brand of basketball that can't succeed against the best playoff teams, who invariably play a superior brand of basketball.. Guys like Patty Mills and Boris Diaw are tasked with MAKING PLAYS for the Spurs - they aren't just play-finishers like Shumpert and JR Smith (who are actually more talented).

Futhermore, the supporting cast's predictable play-finishing roles don't work against the best playoff teams, which is why the story is ALWAYS how Lebron's teammates underperformed when it mattered - since Lebron's teammates play undercapacity against the best teams, the TEAM plays undercapacity/underperforms (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html)).

And we know WHY Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers - by turning the forward position into a SECOND point guard position that has low assisted rate and high time of possession, teammates have less opportunity to assist and time with the ball compared to other teams whose forwards have NORMAL assisted rates and time of possession.. Less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball forces teammates into play-finishing roles.

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates - he elevated teammates so the team played to full capacity and never lost as the favorite.. Otoh, Lebron reduces teammates to play-finishers, which leads to team underperformance and losing as the favorite.





Guarantee if Lebron had Chris Paul or even a Rondo, you'd see him play off the ball more


The best playmaker on a team doesn't have to be a ball-dominant, point guard style player like Lebron, CP3, or Rondo.

Look at Jordan - Jordan was the team's leading playmaker and assisted on the highest proportion of teammates field goals (he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49)), yet he didn't start at point guard or adopt a point guard style.

Same goes for Bird - both Jordan or Bird averaged approximately the same assists as Lebron in the playoffs (6-7 APG), but neither were not point guard-style ball-dominators.

And as previously mentioned, it's highly suboptimal for Lebron or Ben Simmons to play point guard from the forward position because it adds a second point guard to the floor, which causes in an inequitable distribution of the playmaking and reduces capable teammates to play-finishing status.

[PP34Deuce]

It's suboptimal for Lebron to play point guard from the forward position... You should be aware that all point guards have:


1) Low assisted rates (teammates rarely throw point guards an assist because they score off-the-dribble without needing a pass)

2) High time of possession (they have the ball in their hands a long time each game).


However, Lebron's point guard style has a different impact than regular point guards because he starts AT FORWARD, not point guard.

By turning the forward position into a SECOND point guard position that has low assisted rate and high time of possession, teammates have less opportunity to assist and time with the ball compared to other teams whose forwards have NORMAL assisted rates and time of possession.




Lebron turns his teammates into play-finishers - he reduces their APG (playmaking), while increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):


................................................AP G, ASSIST %....... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting) <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)..................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)..................31.9% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting)
Irving with... Lebron.. (2015):..... 5.0 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 25.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................32.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 10.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................55.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced) ...................71.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game), 13.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced)..................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
Love with ...Lebron (15'-16'):...... 2.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 11.4% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................80.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game), 30.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced)..................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game), 22.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced)..................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)


FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)


Unfortunately, by reducing teammates to play-finishers, Lebron promotes a sophomoric brand of basketball that can't succeed against the best playoff teams, who invariably play a superior brand of basketball.. Guys like Patty Mills and Boris Diaw are tasked with MAKING PLAYS for the Spurs - they aren't just play-finishers like Shumpert and JR Smith (who are actually more talented).

Futhermore, the supporting cast's predictable play-finishing roles don't work against the best playoff teams, which is why the story is ALWAYS how Lebron's teammates underperformed when it mattered - since Lebron's teammates play undercapacity against the best teams, the TEAM plays undercapacity/underperforms (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html)).

And we know WHY Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers - by turning the forward position into a SECOND point guard position that has low assisted rate and high time of possession, teammates have less opportunity to assist and time with the ball compared to other teams whose forwards have NORMAL assisted rates and time of possession.. Less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball forces teammates into play-finishing roles.

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates - he elevated teammates so the team played to full capacity and never lost as the favorite.. Otoh, Lebron reduces teammates to play-finishers, which leads to team underperformance and losing as the favorite.



The best playmaker on a team doesn't have to be a ball-dominant, point guard style player like Lebron, CP3, or Rondo.

Look at Jordan - Jordan was the team's leading playmaker and assisted on the highest proportion of teammates field goals (he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49)), yet he didn't start at point guard or adopt a point guard style.

Same goes for Bird - both Jordan or Bird averaged approximately the same assists as Lebron in the playoffs (6-7 APG), but neither were not point guard-style ball-dominators.

And as previously mentioned, it's highly suboptimal for Lebron or Ben Simmons to play point guard from the forward position because it adds a second point guard to the floor, which causes in an inequitable distribution of the playmaking and reduces capable teammates to play-finishing status.

While I appreciate your immense passion for basketball debates, and trust me, Skip bayless is nervous 3Ball because you are coming for his position....

Michael was the play finisher of the bulls-not the play maker. He was a shot maker when they needed a basket but the play maker was Pippen. Actually heard Phil Jackson say this many times.


And when you have a talented forward with PG abilities, you are absolutely right that having a 2nd point guard affects team play. Thank you for agreeing with my notion that Kyrie should play more off ball. We're on the same page.

And those stats aren't end all be all. They don't have conviction and just raise skepticism. That's not a very strong argument.

[Magic 32]

Kobe makes good players better and bad players worse.

Lebron makes bad players better and good players worse.

[90sgoat]

Too many posters melting down ITT.

It's too early in the morning for this.

Keep quiet boy.

You're lucky Jeff didn't ban you yesterday. If I was you I'd keep a low profile for now.

[Ranked 12th]

Kobe makes good players better and bad players worse.

Lebron makes bad players better and good players worse.

Which good player did Kobe make better?

Dwight Howard? Nash? Malone??

[IllegalD]

Which good player did Kobe make better?

Dwight Howard? Nash? Malone??


Shaq, Gasol, Odom, Artest, Bynum

[Bankaii]

So when he played 79 games, the most in his his career and played the most minutes and put up career high number, he was not healthy enough:rolleyes:
Nikka please:oldlol:
Are you really this retarded.

To see the direct correlation to Lebron's impact, it's smart to use Wade's numbers from immediately before Lebron joining, and his numbers immediately after Lebron joined.

Bruh you dumb as hell, hold your L I'm done wasting time on you.

[Magic 32]

Which good player did Kobe make better?

Dwight Howard? Nash? Malone??

So you know it's true.

How nice.

[Bankaii]

Shaq, Gasol, Odom, Artest, Bynum
Shaq, Gasol, Odom, and Artest had all already established themselves as great players before joining Kobe.
Kobe didn't make any of them better, in fact they had their best seasons before joining him.

Bynum is the only exception, and judging by his career I doubt Kobe had a role in his 2-3 good seasons. Bynum just had a bad attitude.

[Rooster]

Kobe makes good players better and bad players worse.

Lebron makes bad players better and good players worse.

That's inaccurate, Kobe made Smush, Kwame, Mihm, Atkins, Luke all serviceable players.

[Rooster]

Shaq, Gasol, Odom, and Artest had all already established themselves as great players before joining Kobe.
Kobe didn't make any of them better, in fact they had their best seasons before joining him.

Bynum is the only exception, and judging by his career I doubt Kobe had a role in his 2-3 good seasons. Bynum just had a bad attitude.

None of those guys won anything before Kobe. Shaq had his best years with Kobe especially in the playoffs. Gasol too and Odom became relevant in a championship team. Ariza was almost out of the league before Lakers took him.

[IllegalD]

Shaq, Gasol, Odom, and Artest had all already established themselves as great players before joining Kobe.
Kobe didn't make any of them better, in fact they had their best seasons before joining him.

Bynum is the only exception, and judging by his career I doubt Kobe had a role in his 2-3 good seasons. Bynum just had a bad attitude.


You f*cking retard.

Shaq won his first and ONLY MVP playing with Kobe, and never won sh*t before playing with him despite playing on stacked teams.

Gasol was a first round single-game win virgin until he teamed up with Kobe.

Odom was known as an inconsistent stoner. He had his best year (6th Man of the Year) playing with Kobe.

Artest was known as a headcase who would shoot you out of playoff series.

But based on your bullsh*t logic I guess we can conclude that LeBron didn't make anyone better either since Wade had already won a Finals MVP and a ring without him, and Bosh was an all-star putting up career numbers in Toronto.

[3ball]

Jordan wasn't the play maker for the Bulls. He was a shot maker when they needed a basket but the play maker was Pippen.



Jordan was the Bulls' leading playmaker - he literally MADE MORE PLAYS by assisting on a higher proportion of teammates' field goals than Pippen:


Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced



MJ scored more PPG than anyone in history AND led the team in passing - the entire offense ran through him... This is common knowledge... Pippen was a supplementary player that merely facilitated ball movement - you rarely saw him dribble-penetrate the lane and toss a DIME to someone like MJ did all the time, nor was he EVER the focus of any team's defense






And when you have a talented forward with PG abilities, you are absolutely right that having a 2nd point guard affects team play.


The following isn't opinion - it's FACT:


It's suboptimal for Lebron to play point guard from the forward position... You should be aware that all point guards have:


1) Low assisted rates (teammates rarely throw point guards an assist because they score off-the-dribble without needing a pass)

2) High time of possession (they have the ball in their hands a long time each game).


However, Lebron's point guard style has a different impact than regular point guards because he starts AT FORWARD, not point guard.

By turning the forward position into a SECOND point guard position that has low assisted rate and high time of possession, teammates have less opportunity to assist and time with the ball compared to other teams whose forwards have NORMAL assisted rates and time of possession.





And those stats aren't end all be all. They don't have conviction and just raise skepticism. That's not a very strong argument.


It's a crazy-strong argument - the stats show that Lebron reduces his teammates APG (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing).

Lebron literally got his stats by reducing his teammates stats (ppg and apg), while marginalizing their roles.

Otoh, MJ got his SUPERIOR stats without reducing his teammates' stats or role, which is why his teams did so much better.
.

[Ranked 12th]

You f*cking retard.

Shaq won his first and ONLY MVP playing with Kobe, and never won sh*t before playing with him despite playing on stacked teams.

Gasol was a first round single-game win virgin until he teamed up with Kobe.

Odom was known as an inconsistent stoner. He had his best year (6th Man of the Year) playing with Kobe.

Artest was known as a headcase who would shoot you out of playoff series.

But based on your bullsh*t logic I guess we can conclude that LeBron didn't make anyone better either since Wade had already won a Finals MVP and a ring without him, and Bosh was an all-star putting up career numbers in Toronto.

Meltdown :roll:

[Rooster]

Are you really this retarded.

To see the direct correlation to Lebron's impact, it's smart to use Wade's numbers from immediately before Lebron joining, and his numbers immediately after Lebron joined.

Bruh you dumb as hell, hold your L I'm done wasting time on you.

:facepalm :roll:

You're funny that you still believed that Lebron somehow made Wade better.

Wade put up his best stats before Lebron.:oldlol:

Wade was a FVMP with a monster numbers before Lebron:bowdown

Where was Lebron before Wade:confusedshrug:

[Ranked 12th]

:facepalm :roll:

You're funny that you still believed that Lebron somehow made Wade better.

Wade put up his best stats before Lebron.:oldlol:

Wade was a FVMP with a monster numbers before Lebron:bowdown

Where was Lebron before Wade:confusedshrug:

Where is Wade after LeBron? still hasnt made the playoffs since

[Rooster]

Where is Wade after LeBron? still hasnt made the playoffs since

Even if Wade sucked so bad for the rest of his career,:confusedshrug: that does not take away that he was already a great player with a ring as the man and FMVP before Lebron decided to jump ship with him.:rolleyes:

Why do you think Lebron benedicted arnold the Cleveland town:confusedshrug:
and have the gut to put his act on a live TV:oldlol:

[PP34Deuce]

Jordan was the Bulls' leading playmaker - he literally MADE MORE PLAYS by assisting on a higher proportion of teammates' field goals than Pippen:


Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced



MJ scored more PPG than anyone in history AND led the team in passing - the entire offense ran through him... This is common knowledge... Pippen was a supplementary player that merely facilitated ball movement - you rarely saw him dribble-penetrate the lane and toss a DIME to someone like MJ did all the time, nor was he EVER the focus of any team's defense




The following isn't opinion - it's FACT:


It's suboptimal for Lebron to play point guard from the forward position... You should be aware that all point guards have:


1) Low assisted rates (teammates rarely throw point guards an assist because they score off-the-dribble without needing a pass)

2) High time of possession (they have the ball in their hands a long time each game).


However, Lebron's point guard style has a different impact than regular point guards because he starts AT FORWARD, not point guard.

By turning the forward position into a SECOND point guard position that has low assisted rate and high time of possession, teammates have less opportunity to assist and time with the ball compared to other teams whose forwards have NORMAL assisted rates and time of possession.



It's a crazy-strong argument - the stats show that Lebron reduces his teammates APG (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing).

Lebron literally got his stats by reducing his teammates stats (ppg and apg), while marginalizing their roles.

Otoh, MJ got his SUPERIOR stats without reducing his teammates' stats or role, which is why his teams did so much better.
.

Took you 2 hours to come back with a rebuttal. Which basically is the exact same thing you wrote.

[Gileraracer]

The result is...



...



...


...


...


2/6 :roll:

[Bankaii]

You f*cking retard.

Shaq won his first and ONLY MVP playing with Kobe, and never won sh*t before playing with him despite playing on stacked teams.

Gasol was a first round single-game win virgin until he teamed up with Kobe.

Odom was known as an inconsistent stoner. He had his best year (6th Man of the Year) playing with Kobe.

Artest was known as a headcase who would shoot you out of playoff series.

But based on your bullsh*t logic I guess we can conclude that LeBron didn't make anyone better either since Wade had already won a Finals MVP and a ring without him, and Bosh was an all-star putting up career numbers in Toronto.
You're so sensitive over Kobe it's pathetic.

Shaq was being hailed as the best player in the league in 1998 with Jordan's retirement, Kobe had nothing to do with that.

Gasol was already having dominant post season and leading his team to the playoffs in the "brutal" West before Kobe.

Odom was already established as a solid player and what you said about Ariza is just bullshit.

Artest already had a DPOY before joining Kobe and was a pereineal All-Def player.

You seem to be mistaking winning due to having a better team to having a good individual season.

Is 1995 Drexler's best season because that's the only year he won? Hell no.



:facepalm :roll:

You're funny that you still believed that Lebron somehow made Wade better.

Wade put up his best stats before Lebron.:oldlol:

Wade was a FVMP with a monster numbers before Lebron:bowdown

Where was Lebron before Wade:confusedshrug:
You're borderline retarded.
Again, to measure the effect Lebron had on Wade you should use the season immediately before Lebron joined, and the season immediately after he left.

No one said Lebron made Wade better. But this myth that he made him worse is horribly inaccurate as proven.
You're just mad because the facts/truth doesn't support your bullshit agenda.