Today's drive-and-kick NBA style of play

[3ball]

Have any pundits pointed out that today's drive-and-kick format makes it easier for players to get 3-point looks?

Today's drive-and-kick format requires multiple shooters behind the 3-point line on every possession to kick the ball out to.. This offensive setup didn't exist in previous eras because teams didn't have enough 3-point-shooting personnel to position multiple shooters behind the line.

Accordingly, 3-pointer shooters like Reggie and Bird had to run off screens to get 3-point looks - they didn't have 3-point shooting teammates to enable drive-and-kick so they could stand and wait for an easy kickout like today's 3-point shooter enjoys..

Has this EVER been pointed out by the professional hoops pundits on TV?... Or do they just steal money by comparing previous eras to today's era like it's apples and apples?

[Genaro]

Why would they be talking about the past during the broadcasts? There's a game going on to be talked about.

PS: Welcome back

[3ball]

Why would they be talking about the past during the broadcasts?


There are plenty of shows that discuss previous eras.

And there are plenty of instances DURING GAMES where the announcers take time to compare the eras, and also during post-game shows.

So obviously, there are plenty of instances where pundits compare the eras - but you just don't want to answer the question.
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[Zach LaVine]

Given that 3Ball admits he doesn't watch the NBA, all arguments he has made about Jordan vs current NBA players are officially null and void.

[3ball]

Given that 3Ball admits he doesn't watch the NBA, all arguments he has made about Jordan vs current NBA players are officially null and void.


And you never watched previous eras - so according to you, any thought you have about a previous era is "null and void".

But back to the point - 3-pointer shooters like Bird and Miller had to run off screens to get 3-point looks in their era - they didn't have 3-point shooting teammates to enable drive-and-kick so they could stand and wait for an easy kickout like today's 3-point shooter enjoys.

Obviously, the offense of today's 3-point shooters would be weaker in the 80's and 90's since they would be running off screens to get 3-pointers like Bird/Miller did, rather than today's drive-and-kick setup that generates easy 3-point looks.
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[Zach LaVine]

And you never watched previous eras - so according to you, any thought you have about a previous era is "null and void".

But back to the point - 3-pointer shooters like Bird and Miller had to run off screens to get 3-point looks in their era - they didn't have 3-point shooting teammates to enable drive-and-kick so they could stand and wait for an easy kickout like today's 3-point shooter enjoys.

Obviously, the offense of today's 3-point shooters would be weaker in the 80's and 90's since they would be running off screens to get 3-pointers like Bird/Miller did, rather than today's drive-and-kick setup that generates easy 3-point looks.
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I most definitely did, while you blatantly admit to not watching now.

Why are you talking about "today's 3-point shooters" if you don't watch the game? You clearly don't know anything about it because you don't watch it.

[sd3035]

I don't watch today's NBA

It shows in your posts

[aj1987]

A couple of things 3ball admitted ITT:

1. He doesn't watch today's NBA.
2. Players back then were shitty 3pt shooters.
3. The previous eras were basically playing low IQ basketball, because they didn't utilize the 3pt line.


And there are plenty of instances DURING GAMES where the announcers take time to compare the eras, and also during post-game shows.

How would you know that? You just said you don't watch the games.

[robert de niro]

3ball just ethered himself :oldlol:

[1manfastbreak]

I think you're seeing a transition from cookie cutter positions into more versatile personnel.

More players who are now considered "power forwards" can stretch out and hit mid range to three point shots. It's not as simple as saying you drive and kick to a bunch of guys standing around the three point line.

There is an increased value in players who can do multiple things on the court.

Players shoot and make a lot more three's in today's NBA but if you look at the shooting percentages they are still pretty comparable from the 80's and 90's.

[Vancouver-Grizz]

Have any pundits pointed out that today's drive-and-kick format makes it easier for players to get 3-point looks?

Today's drive-and-kick format requires multiple shooters behind the 3-point line on every possession to kick the ball out to.. This offensive setup didn't exist in previous eras because teams didn't have enough 3-point-shooting personnel to position multiple shooters behind the line.

Accordingly, 3-pointer shooters like Reggie and Bird had to run off screens to get 3-point looks - they didn't have 3-point shooting teammates to enable drive-and-kick so they could stand and wait for an easy kickout like today's 3-point shooter enjoys..

Has this EVER been pointed out by the professional hoops pundits on TV?... Or do they just steal money by comparing previous eras to today's era like it's apples and apples?

Even in the 90s era, it was a lot harder to drive and kick with the hand check rule and also the big men back then occupied a lot of the room in the paint. That is not to say they didn't get clean looks on the 3pt line. The inside outside game worked well for a lot of teams. Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Olajuwon, Barkley to name a few had great assists numbers from kicking it out due to double teams.

I think back then only reggie and ray allen was ahead of the heard by running off ball screens to get open looks which is still under utilized in today's game.

Game is different today and that doesn't mean it is a ***** game... Just different. No point of comparing back then and now cause even the physical shape of the NBA players are completely different.

[SouBeachTalents]

Warriors winning 73 games has 3ball shook

[Pushxx]

I know it's impossible to read 3ball's posts, but he said not too long ago he hasn't watched the NBA since the Mavs won the championship...

[nba_55]

So you keep arguing with everyone over today's players without even watching them play? :biggums:

[riseagainst]

A couple of things 3ball admitted ITT:

1. He doesn't watch today's NBA.
2. Players back then were shitty 3pt shooters.
3. The previous eras were basically playing low IQ basketball, because they didn't utilize the 3pt line.


How would you know that? You just said you don't watch the games.


I don't think they had low IQ, I think they just were not as skilled as today's players. Thus the whole weaker league thing compared to today.

[Zach LaVine]

Warriors winning 73 games has 3ball shook
Meltdown. He can't even watch the games anymore. :roll:

[3ball]

More players who are now considered "power forwards" can stretch out and hit mid range to three point shots.


Players at all positions in previous eras were FAR better midrange shooters - it isn't remotely close.

In today's game, midrange shots are considered the toughest shots and are avoided.

Otoh, the vast majority of points in previous eras came from midrange - midrange was the STANDARD in previous eras, like 3-pointers are now.





More players who are now considered "power forwards" can stretch out and hit three point shots.


But today's players are less adept at creating their own shot and scoring ON defenders.

Today's spacing has made ball movement easier and more effective, so players aren't expected to take their man as a standard anymore - scoring ON defenders is avoided when possible, because ball movement can yield an open shot easier than the unspaced courts of previous eras.. Essentially, the easier ball movement enabled by today's spacing allows players to PLAY-FINISH more than previous eras.

But back in the day, players were expected to have the skill necessary to take their man and score ON defenders as a STANDARD... That's why you had ridiculously skilled 2-point scorers back then that you don't see today, such as Dantley, Bird, King, English, Vandeweghe, etc - those guys had to take their man nearly EVERY PLAY, which required superior skill than today's 3-and-D robots that just finish plays/catch-and-shoot and don't take their man that often.





I think you're seeing a transition from cookie cutter positions into more versatile personnel.


3-point ability doesn't make a player more versatile if it comes at the expense of posting up (which today's player can't do), or scoring from 2-point range in a wide variety of ways.

2-pointers are scored in far more WAYS and with far more TYPES of shots than 3-pointers... 3-pointers are mostly catch-and-shoot jumpshots.

There's nothing more cookie cutter than that - and it certainly doesn't make a player more versatile, especially if it comes at the expense of the more diverse 2-pointer skill sets and shot types.





It's not as simple as saying you drive and kick to abunch of guys standing around the three point line.


You've missed the point of the thread, which is to say that today's player can get a 3-point look MUCH EASIER than previous eras.

Today's drive-and-kick format requires multiple shooters behind the 3-point line on every possession to kick the ball out to.. This offensive setup didn't exist in previous eras because teams didn't have enough 3-point-shooting personnel to position multiple shooters behind the line.

Accordingly, if any player from today were transported back to the 80's, they wouldn't have any 3-point shooting teammates to enable drive-and-kick, so they'd have to run off screens for all their 3-point looks just like any other 3-point shooter back then.
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[StephHamann]

3ball is back bitches

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYeDsa4Tw0c

:rockon:

[3ball]

the mods on this site are a bunch of ******s and losers whose peak in life is moderating an ignorant web site.

where have I made this thread before OVER AND OVER?

it's lies - which proves that the mods are simply annoyed at my truth bombs about today's game

indeed, the massive driving and passing lanes leads to a predictable game of mostly catch-and-shoot jumpers or open layups - a weaker, diluted game than previous eras, but dumb people are blinded by the 3ball... It's akin to little kids being impressed with a balloon.

:cheers: :yaohappy: :banana:

[90sgoat]

It's akin to little kids being impressed with a balloon.

https://media.giphy.com/media/5YF9dwGZ29rVe/giphy.gif

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cwZXX0PwsOI/hqdefault.jpg

[sdot_thadon]

It's because you can't see the forest for the trees man. Point blank you don't watch today's game so you come into the discussion with only half the story. Once I realized you didn't even watch the game, before you admitted it even I couldnt take your words seriously. Ignorance is bliss though. Players have the skills relevant to today's game, and that said have more diverse skillsets overall you could argue. Guy's with previous eras skillset are a longer shot to make the league. Mid range jumpers were never considered the the toughest shots to create either, they were mathematically proven to be the least efficient due to the rise of the 3 point shot. Defensive evolution made those particular shots not as valuable as past years. This entire shitty debate can be boiled down to your favorite era not having the 3 as a common tool and this era that you don't watch having a surplus. In other words you don't know what the hell you're talking about half the time.

Oh and to be honest the mods here did what was best for you, the same thing pretty much every other forum does to you. No surprise. Sometimes you need a break. Now behave.:coleman:

[3ball]

blah, blah, blah


unlike me, you never back up anything you say with stats or proof of any kind.

it's just pure bullshit stream of consciousness to counter my truth bombs.

keep enjoying those balloons kid

[ralph_i_el]

Players at all positions in previous eras were FAR better midrange shooters - it isn't remotely close.

In today's game, midrange shots are considered the toughest shots and are avoided.

Otoh, the vast majority of points in previous eras came from midrange - midrange was the STANDARD in previous eras, like 3-pointers are now.



But today's players are less adept at creating their own shot and scoring ON defenders.

Today's spacing has made ball movement easier and more effective, so players aren't expected to take their man as a standard anymore - scoring ON defenders is avoided when possible, because ball movement can yield an open shot easier than the unspaced courts of previous eras.. Essentially, the easier ball movement enabled by today's spacing allows players to PLAY-FINISH more than previous eras.

But back in the day, players were expected to have the skill necessary to take their man and score ON defenders as a STANDARD... That's why you had ridiculously skilled 2-point scorers back then that you don't see today, such as Dantley, Bird, King, English, Vandeweghe, etc - those guys had to take their man nearly EVERY PLAY, which required superior skill than today's 3-and-D robots that just finish plays/catch-and-shoot and don't take their man that often.



3-point ability doesn't make a player more versatile if it comes at the expense of posting up (which today's player can't do), or scoring from 2-point range in a wide variety of ways.

2-pointers are scored in far more WAYS and with far more TYPES of shots than 3-pointers... 3-pointers are mostly catch-and-shoot jumpshots.

There's nothing more cookie cutter than that - and it certainly doesn't make a player more versatile, especially if it comes at the expense of the more diverse 2-pointer skill sets and shot types.



You've missed the point of the thread, which is to say that today's player can get a 3-point look MUCH EASIER than previous eras.

Today's drive-and-kick format requires multiple shooters behind the 3-point line on every possession to kick the ball out to.. This offensive setup didn't exist in previous eras because teams didn't have enough 3-point-shooting personnel to position multiple shooters behind the line.

Accordingly, if any player from today were transported back to the 80's, they wouldn't have any 3-point shooting teammates to enable drive-and-kick, so they'd have to run off screens for all their 3-point looks just like any other 3-point shooter back then.
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I agree with this. Teams today play a more regimented system of basketball, with less room for individual flair. Still, one area that top perimeter players excellent at today is ball movement and bball IQ. Ridiculously skilled scorers are not as valuable today if they can't play good team basketball.

I think that If you continue to stop attaching MJ love to good posts like these, we'll all have better discourse.

[3ball]

https://media.giphy.com/media/CoAqfk1FyXvS8/giphy.gif


I agree with this. Teams today play a more regimented system of basketball, with less room for individual flair.

Still, one area that top perimeter players excellent at today is ball movement and bball IQ. Ridiculously skilled scorers are not as valuable today if they can't play good team basketball.


It's too bad we can't see how good their IQ would be without their teammates shooting 3-pointers to space out the entire floor for them.

Without the 3-point shooting teammates needed to create today's wide open game, which of today's players would still have the passing skill to thread needles consistently like the gif above?

That level of passing and threaded needles isn't needed in today's wide open, spaced-out game..

Nonetheless, every era requires good hoops IQ of the brand of basketball played at the time.
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[Horatio33]

Game has moved on from ISO after ISO after ISO to more of a team game, where positions are becoming less defined, and players are more skilled instead of using brute force.

[Wa88iors]

Have any pundits pointed out that today's drive-and-kick format makes it easier for players to get 3-point looks?

Today's drive-and-kick format requires multiple shooters behind the 3-point line on every possession to kick the ball out to.. This offensive setup didn't exist in previous eras because teams didn't have enough 3-point-shooting personnel to position multiple shooters behind the line.

Accordingly, 3-pointer shooters like Reggie and Bird had to run off screens to get 3-point looks - they didn't have 3-point shooting teammates to enable drive-and-kick so they could stand and wait for an easy kickout like today's 3-point shooter enjoys..

Has this EVER been pointed out by the professional hoops pundits on TV?... Or do they just steal money by comparing previous eras to today's era like it's apples and apples?

Yes, Jason Temine and Eddie Johnson of NBA Today have talked about this Ad Nauseaum starting last year. Basically saying the same thing. The game has changed from driving inside with big's , getting the "and 1", to a smaller, speedier line up to combat the bigs ability to block shots inside. The older generation that is playing in this league now, learned to defend the drive in the paint, too slow to pursue the kick out pass from teams like the Warrior's deadly catch and shoot small lineup.

on
Sirius XM radio

[Hey Yo]

https://media.giphy.com/media/CoAqfk1FyXvS8/giphy.gif

The above shows MJ forcing his way to the basket only to get bailed out by King, due to Ewing's great defense.

[3ball]

Game has moved on from ISO after ISO after ISO to more of a team game


Today's game is now screen-roll after screen-roll, which is less exciting then seeing a player use creativity to take his man WITHOUT a screen.

And today's player isolates a ton - it's statistical fact that Harden and Lebron isolate on 20-25% of their possessions

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time


Then they use screen-roll for another 25%.. They literally isolate or use screen-roll for over half their possessions:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Poss

[3ball]

Yes, Jason Temine and Eddie Johnson of NBA Today have talked about this Ad Nauseaum starting last year. Basically saying the same thing. The game has changed from driving inside with big's , getting the "and 1", to a smaller, speedier line up to combat the bigs ability to block shots inside. The older generation that is playing in this league now, learned to defend the drive in the paint, too slow to pursue the kick out pass from teams like the Warrior's deadly catch and shoot small lineup.

on
Sirius XM radio
Thanks for this response... I was genuinely curious.

And it's no surprise that it was on the NON-mainstream Sirius.

No way the mainstream outlets would have that kind of CORRECT, nuanced analysis.

[CuterThanRubio]

https://media.giphy.com/media/CoAqfk1FyXvS8/giphy.gif


My goodness, this gif is a perfect illustration of why I prefer modern basketball.

The utter disregard of positional awareness is nauseating!

First, check out #1 on the perimeter, totally unprepared to move laterally and a ghost screen is enough to cause him to give up on the play..

Second, what the hell is that white guy doing in the paint, he shifts one way for no reason and then decides to jump out of the way entirely, great 90s interior defense on display!

#21 was guarding air

#34 was standing around until the ball was being laid up

Despicable!

[sdot_thadon]

unlike me, you never back up anything you say with stats or proof of any kind.

it's just pure bullshit stream of consciousness to counter my truth bombs.

keep enjoying those balloons kid
Let's just be honest here, those of us who continued watching the game were already aware of the mid range jumper being phased out. If you'd have been watching games instead of pixelated youtube videos with your piece in your hand, you'd know too instead of acting like it's a brand new phenomenon (balloon) the way you do. You've got youtube mastered you old hermit but you need to work on google, I'm sure there are 100s of artices detailing the exact thing you debate, when it was actually a topic no less.

[3ball]

Let's just be honest here, those of us who continued watching the game were already aware of the mid range jumper being phased out. If you'd have been watching games instead of pixelated youtube videos with your piece in your hand, you'd know too instead of acting like it's a brand new phenomenon (balloon) the way you do. You've got youtube mastered you old hermit but you need to work on google, I'm sure there are 100s of artices detailing the exact thing you debate, when it was actually a topic no less.


I never informed anyone that the midrange jumper had been phased out - I said that today's method of shooting 24 threes per game - drive-and-kick - didn't exist in previous eras because there was no one to kick the ball out to.. Teams didn't have enough 3-point-shooting personnel to position multiple shooters behind the line like today's teams do on every possession.

This perspective is important when considering how today's 3-point shooter would fare in previous eras - they wouldn't have any 3-point shooting teammates to enable drive-and-kick, so guys like Bosh and Ibaka wouldn't be 3-point experts by waiting for easy kickouts, and Curry wouldn't get all those kickouts either.. 3-point looks would be harder to come by since they would need to run off screens to get looks, just like any other 3-point shooter did back then.





mid range jumper being phased out



Shots from midrange are still taken more than 3-pointers - even for Durant:


..........................................FGA from 8-24 Feet, Efg..........3 Point Attempts

Russ Westrook 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) .............................546.................. ..................288

Dwayne Wade 2009 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................... .........790....................................27 8

Kobe Bryant 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................... ........... 670.....................................407

Kevin Durant 2014 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201142/stats/shooting/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................... .......... 534.....................................491

Lebron James 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/)............................... 309.....................................249



Today's defenders are perpetually guarding the 3-point line, which leaves the middle of the floor and midrange shots more open than ever before.

Furthermore, defenses can't guard the larger surface area required by 3-point shooting, so they must GIVE UP midrange shots to protect layups and 3-pointers - despite all these advantages of shooting midrange shots, perennial bricklayers with no touch such as Lebron and Westbrook shoot in the 30's from the 8-24 foot distance.

It's pathetic.. Lack of midrange scoring ability and post-up ability will cause Team USA to lose again despite a massive talent advantage during international play, where the rules are more old-school.. The rules allow higher physicality which prevents easy penetration, legal paint-camping, and shorter 3-point line for less spacing - all these things work against the the USA's 3-pointers/layups approach to the game.

Many people don't even understand what ALLOWS today's 3-pointers/layups strategy - it's the spacing (3-point shooting) that opens up the floor for easier layups, which allows a 3-pointers/layups strategy.. But it's fool's gold - the spacing may look pretty and organized like a marching band, but the basketball players are less skilled, since they only need to catch-and-shoot or make in-stride layups in well-spaced environments.. They don't need the moves, shooting touch, or skill needed to take their man and score ON defenders consistently, which is needed in the lesser-spaced environments of international play.

[CuterThanRubio]

I never informed anyone that the midrange jumper had been phased out - I said that today's method of shooting 24 threes per game - drive-and-kick - didn't exist in previous eras because there was no one to kick the ball out to.. Teams didn't have enough 3-point-shooting personnel to position multiple shooters behind the line like today's teams do on every possession.

This perspective is important when considering how today's 3-point shooter would fare in previous eras - they wouldn't have any 3-point shooting teammates to enable drive-and-kick, so guys like Bosh and Ibaka wouldn't be 3-point experts by waiting for easy kickouts, and Curry wouldn't get all those kickouts either.. 3-point looks would be harder to come by since they would need to run off screens to get looks, just like any other 3-point shooter did back then.




Shots from midrange are still taken more than 3-pointers - even for Durant:


..........................................FGA from 8-24 Feet, Efg..........3 Point Attempts

Russ Westrook 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) .............................546.................. ..................288

Dwayne Wade 2009 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................... .........790....................................27 8

Kobe Bryant 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................... ........... 670.....................................407

Kevin Durant 2014 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201142/stats/shooting/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................... .......... 534.....................................491

Lebron James 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/)............................... 309.....................................249



Today's defenders are perpetually guarding the 3-point line, which leaves the middle of the floor and midrange shots more open than ever before.

Furthermore, defenses can't guard the larger surface area required by 3-point shooting, so they must GIVE UP midrange shots to protect layups and 3-pointers - despite all these advantages of shooting midrange shots, perennial bricklayers with no touch such as Lebron and Westbrook shoot in the 30's from the 8-24 foot distance.

It's pathetic.. Lack of midrange scoring ability and post-up ability will cause Team USA to lose again despite a massive talent advantage during international play, where the rules are more old-school.. The rules allow higher physicality which prevents easy penetration, legal paint-camping, and shorter 3-point line for less spacing - all these things work against the the USA's 3-pointers/layups approach to the game.

Many people don't even understand what ALLOWS today's 3-pointers/layups strategy - it's the spacing (3-point shooting) that opens up the floor for easier layups, which allows a 3-pointers/layups strategy.. But it's fool's gold - the spacing may look pretty and organized like a marching band, but the basketball players are less skilled, since they only need to catch-and-shoot or make in-stride layups in well-spaced environments.. They don't need the moves, shooting touch, or skill needed to take their man and score ON defenders consistently, which is needed in the lesser-spaced environments of international play.

It has become VERY evident that you only watch Jordan highlights on youtube and may have never seen an actual game in your entire life.

Did you forget that the 3 point line is shorter during international play?

Team USA absolutely COOKED every single challenger from long range with ease during the last olympics and FIBA world cup.

Their point differential in the FIBA tournament was more than one hundred points better than the second best team's, Spain, a squad that featured the Gasol brothers, mid range specialists (and they didn't even advance to the final!)

Your logic is not solid!

Paint camping and old school rules can't stop elite players from torching the competition from deep!

How about you try watching a basketball game for once in your life instead of scouring through grainy gifs and arbitrary stats!

Too funny!

[3ball]

It has become VERY evident that you only watch Jordan highlights on youtube and may have never seen an actual game in your entire life.

Did you forget that the 3 point line is shorter during international play?

Team USA absolutely COOKED every single challenger from long range with ease during the last olympics and FIBA world cup.

Their point differential in the FIBA tournament was more than one hundred points better than the second best team's, Spain, a squad that featured the Gasol brothers, mid range specialists (and they didn't even advance to the final!)


The last Team USA underperformed given their massive talent advantage on every team they faced:

2012:

USA 99... Lithuania 94
USA 107.. Spain 100


Interestingly, they performed much better in 2008, BEFORE the 3-point craze had taken full effect.

That was when they had mini-Mike, or Kobe, who saved them against Spain.. Given their close game to Spain, that team underperformed their talent advantage as well, albiet to a much lesser extent than the more 3-point happy 2012 team.

[ClipperRevival]

Have any pundits pointed out that today's drive-and-kick format makes it easier for players to get 3-point looks?

Today's drive-and-kick format requires multiple shooters behind the 3-point line on every possession to kick the ball out to.. This offensive setup didn't exist in previous eras because teams didn't have enough 3-point-shooting personnel to position multiple shooters behind the line.

Accordingly, 3-pointer shooters like Reggie and Bird had to run off screens to get 3-point looks - they didn't have 3-point shooting teammates to enable drive-and-kick so they could stand and wait for an easy kickout like today's 3-point shooter enjoys..

Has this EVER been pointed out by the professional hoops pundits on TV?... Or do they just steal money by comparing previous eras to today's era like it's apples and apples?

The drive and kick always existed. It's a fundamental part of basketball. Just in the past, guys spotted up closer to the basket, without the huge emphasis on the 3. There has always been spot up shooters. You should know that. But obviously, it is emphasized more today. But let's not act like it's some new thing.

And welcome back.

[CuterThanRubio]

The fact remains that your original claim is far from correct.

No need to go all the way back to 2012 when the FIBA squad last year shut it down, do you not remember Kyrie and Harden throwing in threes like layups?

You really think some soft Euro scrub is going to be able to handle a guy like Anthony Davis or Cousins in the paint?

Keep dreaming.

USA all day, fool!

[ClipperRevival]

And you never watched previous eras - so according to you, any thought you have about a previous era is "null and void".

But back to the point - 3-pointer shooters like Bird and Miller had to run off screens to get 3-point looks in their era - they didn't have 3-point shooting teammates to enable drive-and-kick so they could stand and wait for an easy kickout like today's 3-point shooter enjoys.

Obviously, the offense of today's 3-point shooters would be weaker in the 80's and 90's since they would be running off screens to get 3-pointers like Bird/Miller did, rather than today's drive-and-kick setup that generates easy 3-point looks.
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Dude, come on. You're saying guys today don't run through picks? Well, you admitted you don't watch bball today which shocks me. Where is your love for the game? But anyways, guys like Redick Korver, Klay, and in the past Allen and Rip made their living running through picks. This aspect is another part of the game that's been around for decades.

[ClipperRevival]

I think you're seeing a transition from cookie cutter positions into more versatile personnel.

More players who are now considered "power forwards" can stretch out and hit mid range to three point shots. It's not as simple as saying you drive and kick to a bunch of guys standing around the three point line.

There is an increased value in players who can do multiple things on the court.

Players shoot and make a lot more three's in today's NBA but if you look at the shooting percentages they are still pretty comparable from the 80's and 90's.

Nah. It's the opposite. The game is getting dumbed down. The emphasis on the 3 is too much. People are ignoring the midrange area and post game. I.e the footwork game. If you can shoot the 3 today, you have value. You don't need to do anything else. Everyone wants to shoot the 3, even 5s. That's specialization and not having a core base of fundamentals. I am not hating because I still love the NBA today, but that's my objective take.

[CuterThanRubio]

Nah. It's the opposite. The game is getting dumbed down. The emphasis on the 3 is too much. People are ignoring the midrange area and post game. I.e the footwork game. If you can shoot the 3 today, you have value. You don't need to do anything else. Everyone wants to shoot the 3, even 5s. That's specialization and not having a core base of fundamentals. I am not hating because I still love the NBA today, but that's my objective take.

What do you mean dumbed down lol

Don't make me start posting screenshots of these so called "advanced" techniques from the past, defense and offense was never as good as it is now schematically.

The team that attempts the most threes in the league is taking .375 of their shots from there, its not even close to half, so don't act like people aren't getting inside looks.

I'm tired of these crybabies who sit and exaggerate because they want to see sloppy rugby scrums in the paint, do you even watch the games?

We know that 3ball doesn't, no wonder his assertions are so off base!

[stephanieg]

Subjectively I tend to agree the proliferation of the three isn't that entertaining, but the OP is like those guys in the medieval ages complaining about how guns and cannons are horrible and it's more manly to charge at your enemy up close and personal and cut their head off with a sword. That's romantic I guess, but try charging at a rifle column with swords and shields and see what happens.

[Labissiere]

Editing the thread title doesn't take away from the statement that you don't follow today's nba.

[LakersForlife]

3ball just ethered himself :oldlol:
yah.. he got owned by himself

[Duffy Pratt]

Instead of drive-and-kick, lots of teams operated in the 90s around a post entry pass, which would either lead to a shot, or draw a double team, followed by a kick out to a three point shooter. The Rockets won with this being the main part of their offense. Barkley made a living backing down defenders until a double team came, and then kicking the ball out.

The basics are similar, but rules changes have made the drive and kick the better way to achieve the same thing. And three point shooters have gotten better.

Have I noticed pundits talking about this? No. But I didn't notice them talking about how boring the post entry pass, double and kick offense was either. And it was a snooze.

Oh, and as for Bird running off screens to get his three point looks, watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AtciQPrPnA

Not much running off screens that I can see, but evidence I guess doesn't matter...

Edit: Another video of Bird emphatically not running off screens to get his three pointers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFamuwa96sM

[CuterThanRubio]

Every three Bird ever made was wide open.

[3ball]

None of those Bird videos look ANYTHING like today's spaced-out setup that is optimally designed to generate 3-point looks.

[Da_Realist]

Well, you admitted you don't watch bball today which shocks me. Where is your love for the game?

I don't watch either except for big games like Spurs/Warriors. There are no bully teams anymore. It's all finesse. There is no decent big man in the league and no decent post presence. The best big man in the league is 40 years old! There is no counter to small ball. No way for a team to slow anything down so GSW can score 80 points in a half with no problem. It's like flag football.

[Akhenaten]

https://media.giphy.com/media/CoAqfk1FyXvS8/giphy.gif



got away with a travel here

[Duffy Pratt]

Every three Bird ever made was wide open.

Just because 3ball says lots of things that are false is no reason to counter with stuff that's equally false.

http://youtu.be/s-Hf-3XvAyk

[Jasper]

Have any pundits pointed out that today's drive-and-kick format makes it easier for players to get 3-point looks?

Today's drive-and-kick format requires multiple shooters behind the 3-point line on every possession to kick the ball out to.. This offensive setup didn't exist in previous eras because teams didn't have enough 3-point-shooting personnel to position multiple shooters behind the line.

Accordingly, 3-pointer shooters like Reggie and Bird had to run off screens to get 3-point looks - they didn't have 3-point shooting teammates to enable drive-and-kick so they could stand and wait for an easy kickout like today's 3-point shooter enjoys..

Has this EVER been pointed out by the professional hoops pundits on TV?... Or do they just steal money by comparing previous eras to today's era like it's apples and apples?

I watched the 70s , 80s , 90s ball - you obviously did not.
Nothing new , what has happened is more perimeter ball rotation , to get the open look, for spot up j's and slashing to hoop.
Some of the current bball goes back to Al MCquire Marquette warriors spread in college.

[Duffy Pratt]

None of those Bird videos look ANYTHING like today's spaced-out setup that is optimally designed to generate 3-point looks.

So what? None of them show Bird running off a bunch of screens to get open for a three. That was A large part of Reggie Millers game, but not so much a part of Birds.

You've admitted that you don't watch now. What you said about Bird casts doubt on whether you ever watched. I wasn't saying the that Bird got his three point looks from today's spacing schemes. That's not how the Celtics played. Nor did they get a lot from passes from the post (except when Bird was posting up). You could probably count on one hand the number of times that McHale passed up a post up to get someone a three. The Rockets under Rudy T, however, ran a kick out offense that depended on spacing.

[CuterThanRubio]

I already shut this thread down, but I'm going to do even more damage!

Less than a minute into that video and I find the first three, and GUESS WHAT, HE'S WIDE OPEN AGAIN LOL.

The majority of Bird's attempts from outside were unguarded, perimeter defense in the 80s was SOFT and CARELESS, the only place that was consistently contested was the paint, and that is easy to do when you can pack the whole team inside.

http://s17.postimg.org/q1gbwomq3/open.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/q1gbwomq3/)

[3ball]

The drive and kick always existed. Just in the past, guys spotted up closer to the basket, without the huge emphasis on the 3.

But let's not act like it's some new thing.


As always, you misread my post - I never said the drive and kick was new - but driving and kicking for 3-pointers (usually via screen-roll) wasn't common or the staple of ANY team's offense until about 10 years ago.. Consequently, good 3-point shooters in the 80's and 90's didn't benefit from offenses that were based on their strength like today's 3-point shooters do.

Today's drive-and-kick for 3-pointers requires multiple shooters behind the line to maximize kickout targets and opportunity to swing the ball around.. Previous eras didn't have enough 3-point shooting personnel to position multiple shooters behind the line, so they could only drive-and-kick for 2-pointers, which was far less efficient (yields lower PPP) than driving and kicking for 3-pointers.. The inefficiency of driving and kicking for 2-pointers is why post-ups were the staple of offenses back then, not drive-and-kick.

But once teams had sufficient 3-point shooting personnel to position multiple shooters behind the line, and once the NBA made penetration easier via the hand-check ban, driving-and-kicking for 3-pointers became viable and a more efficient option than posting up - again, this happened about 10 years ago and 3-point shooters have benefited from the strategic focus to get them easier looks.





And welcome back.


The inefficiency of driving and kicking for 2-pointers demonstrates that the decline in post-ups was due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers (where teams must drive-and-kick for 2-pointers like previous eras), no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick.

Since post-ups, mid-range, off-ball and isolations were the only things left in the 80's without the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick worthwhile, we can say with certainty that many of today's elite players would be lesser players back then - their 3-and-D skill sets exclude elite ability in any of the aforementioned areas.

But back to the point of the thread - since screen-roll/drive-and-kick is now the staple of every team's offense, it's much easier for today's player to obtain 3-point looks - guys like Ibaka and Bosh are considered 3-point snipers just by standing there and waiting for kickouts, while Curry gets a much larger proportion of 3-point looks via kickout than Reggie Miller or Bird ever did..