Is Michael Jordan's longevity overrated?

[Fire Colangelo]

I constantly see MJ stans prop up what MJ did at 39/40 years old as a testament of what his prime self would've done in the 00s and 10s and comparing to MJ's last two seasons to Kobe's last two seasons. While I don't doubt MJ would've been just amazing if not more amazing had he played in this era, is his final two seasons overrated as far as longevity goes?

Before his final comeback in the 2002 season, MJ logged 35887 regular season minutes and 7474 playoff minutes.

Comparing to his perimeter counter parts....

Kobe had logged more minutes than MJ did in the middle of his 2010 season at 31 years old. Kobe went on to average 27ppg for another three and a half seasons...

LeBron logged more minute than MJ did at the end of last season at 30 years old...

Obviously age plays a part in how well a player plays. Undoubtedly you're gonna have more tired legs at age 39 compared to age 31, but mileage plays a huge part as well IMO. It just isn't fair to compare MJ's last two years to Kobe's last two years when Kobe logged MUCH more minutes than MJ.

[andgar923]

A. Kobe played with Shaq for a huge part of his career which = less double teams, less effort on defense on his behalf. This is HUGE and cannot be understated or overlooked.

B. Training, medicine and technology was more evolved during Kobe's era compared to MJ's. Better training, conditioning, technology, all add to one's longevity. Today players are recovering from injuries that would either end most older generation's careers or end their season (at the very least). Hell, just the diet and nutrition has evolved dramatically from the 80s and early 90s. Players used to believe drinking coke was healthy, they ate fast food, didn't diet properly, played with injuries that only wore their body down more, etc.etc.

C. It has been stated repeatedly even by Kobe himself:
Today's era is simply softer..... less physical. Kobe himself has alluded to MJ's era as a tougher more physical era, has called this era soft and that again is a HUGE factor. Softer era means less wear and tear on one's body, less abuse the body has to recover from on a daily basis, again... it simply cannot be understated how significant that is.

D. MJ not only played in a more physical era, big men were out to hurt players. It isn't a secret that big men were more physical, teams used to sign players that were known back then as 'bruisers'. They may not have been as skilled as today's players but they were tough physical defenders that were signed to enforce the paint. Whether you were playing defense or offense, they were there to throw elbows, grab, hip check, etc.etc. Go through that shit for games, through months, through seasons, and your body will break down.

E. Triangle offense. The triangle offense also helped in resting a player offensively since it took the pressure of the main ball handler (or any player with the ball) due to spacing and player/ball movement. MJ didn't play with the triangle for a number of years, and even then, the triangle emphasizes the post game. Kobe has been lucky enough to play with 2 All Star big men which the triangle was created for. MJ WAS the Bulls' best post player so he saw the doubles and received the physical abuse, specially after he came back from retirement.

MJ simply had to endure more than James and Kobe for most of his career. One could argue that James didn't receive the same luck that Kobe did and honestly, his path was closer to MJ than Kobe. But he still has benefitted from better technology, training, medicine, but more importantly a softer era. Not only is the era softer, the rules allow perimeter players to excel by design and that is FACT.

And actually, an argument that new school players love to use is.. "Today's players are bigger stronger and more athletic" well, that has to do with today's medical, training, technological advances that players from the 80s and early 90s did not have.

Had Bird been playing in today's era, his back wouldn't be as f*cked up as it was and he'd have a longer healthier career, the list is long of players that would've benefitted from today's advancements.

Imagine MJ training with Tim Grover since day 1 with 'today's' advancements? nuts to imagine how better he'd be. The main reason MJ hired Grover was because his body was taking beating going up against the Pistons. His body was breaking down due to the physical play.

[Kblaze8855]

I dont think you can decide how many miles are on a person by their NBA minutes played in the first place.

Im sure the extreme vast majority of basketball these people ever play is outside NBA games. And how much of it....cant be tracked.

Not like you get to sub out your NBA legs for offseason legs when you play ball in the summer....your 39 year old legs....are your college legs...same legs as HS ball. Same legs from the olympics, and practice, and summer leagues, and charity games, and camps, shoot arounds, one on ones, and back yards.

The minutes you gave for MJ as of his last game as a Bull....

That gives him 3 hours...a MONTH of basketball playing from 15-35.

That seem likely to you? Of course not. His basketball miles arent measured in NBA PT. None of them can be. Im sure he played 3 hours a day at times. I did....and im quite sure he played more than me.

We assume all of them are playing...a lot...for decades. How much nobody can say. All we really have is their ages....how much wear goes on their legs in that period of time cant be said.

[Stringer Bell]

No, it just means that Kobe, Lebron, and Jordan all have great longevity.

Being the best player at age 35, even with 3 years of shorter college seasons and almost 2 years off for baseball, is still something. Being an elite player, which he was as soon as he entered the league, for 12 seasons, and the best for 9 seasons is impressive by any standard.

It's just a matter of "great" longevity to even "more great" longevity if you compare MJ to say, Kareem. And Kareem had great teammates around him when he was old. Karl Malone had amazing longevity.

I think Shaq for that matter, often gets overlooked for his longevity. He was an elite player from his rookie year, and 2nd in MVP voting his 2nd year. 1992/93 season to 2004/05, or 2005/06 season. 13-14 seasons as an elite is very impressive.

[Fire Colangelo]

A. Kobe played with Shaq for a huge part of his career which = less double teams, less effort on defense on his behalf. This is HUGE and cannot be understated or overlooked.

B. Training, medicine and technology was more evolved during Kobe's era compared to MJ's. Better training, conditioning, technology, all add to one's longevity. Today players are recovering from injuries that would either end most older generation's careers or end their season (at the very least). Hell, just the diet and nutrition has evolved dramatically from the 80s and early 90s. Players used to believe drinking coke was healthy, they ate fast food, didn't diet properly, played with injuries that only wore their body down more, etc.etc.

C. It has been stated repeatedly even by Kobe himself:
Today's era is simply softer..... less physical. Kobe himself has alluded to MJ's era as a tougher more physical era, has called this era soft and that again is a HUGE factor. Softer era means less wear and tear on one's body, less abuse the body has to recover from on a daily basis, again... it simply cannot be understated how significant that is.

D. MJ not only played in a more physical era, big men were out to hurt players. It isn't a secret that big men were more physical, teams used to sign players that were known back then as 'bruisers'. They may not have been as skilled as today's players but they were tough physical defenders that were signed to enforce the paint. Whether you were playing defense or offense, they were there to throw elbows, grab, hip check, etc.etc. Go through that shit for games, through months, through seasons, and your body will break down.

E. Triangle offense. The triangle offense also helped in resting a player offensively since it took the pressure of the main ball handler (or any player with the ball) due to spacing and player/ball movement. MJ didn't play with the triangle for a number of years, and even then, the triangle emphasizes the post game. Kobe has been lucky enough to play with 2 All Star big men which the triangle was created for. MJ WAS the Bulls' best post player so he saw the doubles and received the physical abuse, specially after he came back from retirement.

MJ simply had to endure more than James and Kobe for most of his career. One could argue that James didn't receive the same luck that Kobe did and honestly, his path was closer to MJ than Kobe. But he still has benefitted from better technology, training, medicine, but more importantly a softer era. Not only is the era softer, the rules allow perimeter players to excel by design and that is FACT.

And actually, an argument that new school players love to use is.. "Today's players are bigger stronger and more athletic" well, that has to do with today's medical, training, technological advances that players from the 80s and early 90s did not have.

Had Bird been playing in today's era, his back wouldn't be as f*cked up as it was and he'd have a longer healthier career, the list is long of players that would've benefitted from today's advancements.

Imagine MJ training with Tim Grover since day 1 with 'today's' advancements? nuts to imagine how better he'd be. The main reason MJ hired Grover was because his body was taking beating going up against the Pistons. His body was breaking down due to the physical play.

Good post.

But he was retired for like 3 years before he came back in 2002. Assuming he kept in shape and stuff, wouldn't that mean his legs were extermely fresh?

I remember you making a thread/post (forgot) propping up MJ's 2002 and 2003 season as a Wizard and comparing it to Kobe's last two seasons. Is that really a fair thing to do? Considering MJ had much fresher legs than Kobe + Kobe had more much more mileage on his body + Kobe was recovering from an actual injury?


I dont think you can decide how many miles are on a person by their NBA minutes played in the first place.

Im sure the extreme vast majority of basketball these people ever play is outside NBA games. And how much of it....cant be tracked.

Not like you get to sub out your NBA legs for offseason legs when you play ball in the summer....your 39 year old legs....are your college legs...same legs as HS ball. Same legs from the olympics, and practice, and summer leagues, and charity games, and camps, shoot arounds, one on ones, and back yards.

The minutes you gave for MJ as of his last game as a Bull....

That gives him 3 hours...a MONTH of basketball playing from 15-35.

That seem likely to you? Of course not. His basketball miles arent measured in NBA PT. None of them can be. Im sure he played 3 hours a day at times. I did....and im quite sure he played more than me.

We assume all of them are playing...a lot...for decades. How much nobody can say. All we really have is their ages....how much wear goes on their legs in that period of time cant be said.

This I don't know, I can only assume the greats spend somewhat equal amount of time playing/practicing ball outside of the NBA.

Obviously some guys have a better feel of the game, and thus are able to achieve similar results in less time.... But I'd say MJ, Kobe and LeBron are similarly talented.

Not to mention practice, pick up games or even college games for that matter don't come anywhere close to the grind of a NBA season.

Is it fair to compare MJ to KAJ at 40 years old? Even though Kareem was logging like 50K+ minutes at 40 years old.... I don't think it is.

[Young X]

He was a top 5 player from 1984 to 1998. Every season he was in a Bulls uniform he was elite. His longevity was incredible.

[To4]

Read a story about the 92 Olympics?

Jordan gambled all night or something then practiced in the morning and played?

Memory is iffy but something like that.

[andgar923]

MJ was fat and out of shape before he came back as a Wizard.

Not only was he fat and out of shape, he smoked cigars like crazy.

His first season as a Wiz was rushed. He played with multiple injuries and was out of shape for a big portion before the all star break. The Wizards were actually gonna play him limited minutes so he could work his way back into shape. But he was rushed back and never fully recovered from his injuries or got in proper playing shape.

[jstern]

Other than on this thread I've never really seen anyone brag about Jordan's longevity. Whenever I've seen anyone talk about Jordan and longevity was years back from Kobe stans trying to prop up Kobe. Out if the things to brag about when it comes to Jordan longevity hasn't been one, especially with 2 retirements.

Everybody is bonded by human genetics, a top, top, all time great player can play much later than the average player, so long as they haven't had a any major injuries. And it has little to do with being super humans.

[feyki]

He didn't play too many years at high level . But how many players have as good as Jordan's ( between 32-34 ages ) ?

[CuterThanRubio]

A. Kobe played with Shaq for a huge part of his career which = less double teams, less effort on defense on his behalf. This is HUGE and cannot be understated or overlooked.

B. Training, medicine and technology was more evolved during Kobe's era compared to MJ's. Better training, conditioning, technology, all add to one's longevity. Today players are recovering from injuries that would either end most older generation's careers or end their season (at the very least). Hell, just the diet and nutrition has evolved dramatically from the 80s and early 90s. Players used to believe drinking coke was healthy, they ate fast food, didn't diet properly, played with injuries that only wore their body down more, etc.etc.

C. It has been stated repeatedly even by Kobe himself:
Today's era is simply softer..... less physical. Kobe himself has alluded to MJ's era as a tougher more physical era, has called this era soft and that again is a HUGE factor. Softer era means less wear and tear on one's body, less abuse the body has to recover from on a daily basis, again... it simply cannot be understated how significant that is.

D. MJ not only played in a more physical era, big men were out to hurt players. It isn't a secret that big men were more physical, teams used to sign players that were known back then as 'bruisers'. They may not have been as skilled as today's players but they were tough physical defenders that were signed to enforce the paint. Whether you were playing defense or offense, they were there to throw elbows, grab, hip check, etc.etc. Go through that shit for games, through months, through seasons, and your body will break down.

E. Triangle offense. The triangle offense also helped in resting a player offensively since it took the pressure of the main ball handler (or any player with the ball) due to spacing and player/ball movement. MJ didn't play with the triangle for a number of years, and even then, the triangle emphasizes the post game. Kobe has been lucky enough to play with 2 All Star big men which the triangle was created for. MJ WAS the Bulls' best post player so he saw the doubles and received the physical abuse, specially after he came back from retirement.

MJ simply had to endure more than James and Kobe for most of his career. One could argue that James didn't receive the same luck that Kobe did and honestly, his path was closer to MJ than Kobe. But he still has benefitted from better technology, training, medicine, but more importantly a softer era. Not only is the era softer, the rules allow perimeter players to excel by design and that is FACT.

And actually, an argument that new school players love to use is.. "Today's players are bigger stronger and more athletic" well, that has to do with today's medical, training, technological advances that players from the 80s and early 90s did not have.

Had Bird been playing in today's era, his back wouldn't be as f*cked up as it was and he'd have a longer healthier career, the list is long of players that would've benefitted from today's advancements.

Imagine MJ training with Tim Grover since day 1 with 'today's' advancements? nuts to imagine how better he'd be. The main reason MJ hired Grover was because his body was taking beating going up against the Pistons. His body was breaking down due to the physical play.


There is a poster who disproved this myth with a batch of gifs, Kobe was frequently facing doubles.

I'm sure someone remembers that thread

It's not like he was getting abandoned out on the court, he had to work for his. Obviously, having Shaq provides the best outlet you could ask for, but to claim that he was strictly facing single coverage is simply FALSE!

[HenryGarfunkle]

Jordan physically was a durable guy, but mentally he was one of those degenerate guys who needed time off. He took a 1 and a half year vacation to hit softballs. And they wanna make us believe he loved basketball more than anyone?

Whatever. Longevity wise, he's about average. 15 years.

I always say if he had the passion/mental focus of LeBron, he'd be considered GOAT athlete. But LeBron surpassed him athletically and mentally, and is almost there accomplishment wise (only needs two more MVP's to surpass Jordan in that regard)

[Ranked 12th]

Jordan physically was a durable guy, but mentally he was one of those degenerate guys who needed time off. He took a 1 and a half year vacation to hit softballs. And they wanna make us believe he loved basketball more than anyone?

Whatever. Longevity wise, he's about average. 15 years.

I always say if he had the passion/mental focus of LeBron, he'd be considered GOAT athlete. But LeBron surpassed him athletically and mentally, and is almost there accomplishment wise (only needs two more MVP's to surpass Jordan in that regard)

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[bobopenguin]

i dunno why ppl still doubting about MJ? has he not prove enough? do u want to call him up and tell him to come back and ball? leave mj alone.

[Ranked 12th]

Madonna already exposed Jordan's longevity

[HenryGarfunkle]

Madonna already exposed Jordan's longevity
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[tmacattack33]

Not an MJ fan at all...but he was very good at age 39/40.

Minutes logged doesn't do much here. Why don't you count MJ's college minutes? Or maybe even his minor league baseball minutes?

[Straight_Ballin]

Other than on this thread I've never really seen anyone brag about Jordan's longevity. Whenever I've seen anyone talk about Jordan and longevity was years back from Kobe stans trying to prop up Kobe. Out if the things to brag about when it comes to Jordan longevity hasn't been one, especially with 2 retirements.

Everybody is bonded by human genetics, a top, top, all time great player can play much later than the average player, so long as they haven't had a any major injuries. And it has little to do with being super humans.

Whenever someone speaks to Kobe's longevity, all they are doing is praising MJ tbh.

Kobe modeled his entire life off MJ, so it's no surprise that his style of play enables him to still play at 37, much like MJ was playing at 40.

[Stringer Bell]

He didn't play too many years at high level . But how many players have as good as Jordan's ( between 32-34 ages ) ?

11-12 seasons at an elite level is a pretty long time, even if some players have more.

He was the best player in the NBA for 9 seasons. 87/88-92/93, 95/96-97/98.

There's nothing short about that.

[guy]

I'd say Kobes longevity is overrated. His first 2 seasons and last 3 seasons actually count toward his longevity when those seasons should basically mean nothing. You take that into account and Jordan and Kobes longevity is about the same.

[guy]

Jordan physically was a durable guy, but mentally he was one of those degenerate guys who needed time off. He took a 1 and a half year vacation to hit softballs. And they wanna make us believe he loved basketball more than anyone?

Whatever. Longevity wise, he's about average. 15 years.

I always say if he had the passion/mental focus of LeBron, he'd be considered GOAT athlete. But LeBron surpassed him athletically and mentally, and is almost there accomplishment wise (only needs two more MVP's to surpass Jordan in that regard)

Almost there accomplishment wise? :oldlol: I like the strategy. The accomplishments he clearly isn't close to just don't matter. :applause: Don't forget about the finals appearances! Which are basically the new championships. :oldlol: